| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 01:59 UTC: Coronavirus live updates: stock markets tumble amid global investor alarm: Concerns mount that the spread of Covid-19 cannot be stopped as South Korean cases jump over 830, with 8 deaths. Follow latest news — from The Guardian at 01:59: How to protect yourself from coronavirus → https://is.gd/FUJBtJ | 03:02 |
|---|---|---|
| theglass | Mah | 06:28 |
| theglass | Lo ha detto il presidente del Consiglio Giuseppe Conte in una intervista a Frontiere che andrà in onda su Rai1. "Il sistema sanitario - ha osservato Conte - in Italia è di competenza regionale e non è predisposto per una emergenza nazionale. Per questo un coordinamento è necessario. Se non siamo coordinati non riusciremo a contenere il virus in modo efficace. | 06:45 |
| theglass | Se il coordinamento tra i sistemi sanitari nazionali non riuscisse a contenere il coronavirus, il governo "è pronto a misure che contraggono le prerogative dei governatori". | 06:45 |
| theglass | è quello che dicevo l'altra sera | 06:46 |
| theglass | col sistema attuale non c'è coordinamento | 06:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 08:39 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: Coronavirus: fourth Diamond Princess passenger dies as Japan closes some schools – live news — from The Guardian at 08:39: How to protect yourself from coronavirus → https://is.gd/FUJBtJ | 09:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from Google News Italia at 10:43 UTC: (news): Coronavirus in Italia: le news sul contagio e le ricadute sullo sport - Sky Sport — from The Guardian at 10:43: How to protect yourself from coronavirus → https://is.gd/OrLEji | 11:45 |
| neoabo | There's a little free webinar with a free booklet release today about how to prevent flu and have healthy immunity. This virus will be discussed also. | 13:27 |
| neoabo | https://landing.biohackingbook.com/fluwebinar | 13:27 |
| neoabo | (Tuesday 25 Feb at 3:00 PM - 5:00 PM GMT+0) | 13:27 |
| Brainstorm | New from Google News Italia at 12:26 UTC: (news): Coronavirus in Italia: le news sul contagio e le ricadute sullo sport - Sky Sport — from The Guardian at 12:26: How to protect yourself from coronavirus → https://is.gd/OrLEji | 13:29 |
| theglass | a webinar | 13:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from Google News Italia at 13:08 UTC: (news): Coronavirus in Italia: le news sul contagio e le ricadute sullo sport - Sky Sport — from The Guardian at 13:08: How to protect yourself from coronavirus → https://is.gd/OrLEji | 14:11 |
| LjL | theglass, Conte pissed off the wrong governors | 14:44 |
| LjL | he was upset at measures taken by... i dunno, Basilicata and something? | 14:44 |
| LjL | because they ordered school closed for no reason, and one of them forbade entry to people from Lombardy and Veneto (lolk) | 14:44 |
| LjL | but instead, Fontana and Zaia were the ones getting mad at his words | 14:45 |
| theglass | according to art.16 you can't forbid people to move freely in the country | 14:58 |
| theglass | for any reason but the healthcare issues and public safety | 14:59 |
| theglass | but it's a measure that even a local governor can take | 15:00 |
| theglass | not even* | 15:00 |
| theglass | so it's been cancelled | 15:01 |
| theglass | maybe some governor like Basilicata's really thought he could | 15:02 |
| theglass | <theglass> according to art.16 you can't forbid people to move freely in the country | 15:04 |
| theglass | Italian citizens | 15:05 |
| theglass | fwiw.. what can I tell you.. they're pissed off because it's true | 15:06 |
| theglass | Zaia doesn't even bother about "coordinating" with another region | 15:07 |
| theglass | other than Lombardia and maybe FVG | 15:08 |
| theglass | notice the alignment | 15:08 |
| LjL | theglass, well, the people currently quarantined are definitely forbidden to move, but, that did took a *government* decree | 15:11 |
| LjL | an all-encompassing "no lombards" regional decrete is the kind of "unconstitutional" where you should basically see a place drawing "UNCONSTITUTIONAL" in the sky | 15:12 |
| theglass | that's my point | 15:12 |
| theglass | but it's been removed now, fortunately | 15:12 |
| LjL | theglass, anyway my point was, Conte was addressing *those* governors (without naming them), but instead, the Lombardy and Veneto governors got mad | 15:14 |
| LjL | to be honest, Conte could just call them over the phone and say "it wasn't about you, it was about Basilicata" | 15:14 |
| LjL | and he probably did... but politically, they can still jump at the chance to yell at Conte | 15:14 |
| theglass | uhm | 15:17 |
| theglass | I think they got mad when he declared that he could resize the local governors' powers | 15:18 |
| theglass | if needed | 15:19 |
| theglass | at least, that's what I read | 15:20 |
| LjL | yeah he shouldn't have said that | 15:20 |
| LjL | he should just do it when he feels it's necessary | 15:21 |
| theglass | https://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/coronavirus-conte-pronti-contrarre-poteri-regioni-scontro-fontana-ACmeZoLB | 15:21 |
| theglass | yeah, probably when the emergency will be over there will be a debate on that | 15:22 |
| LjL | theglass, China, China being China, at some point sacked all the local party members in Hubei/Wuhan and managed the whole thing centrally | 15:23 |
| LjL | maybe they'll also imprison a few of them | 15:23 |
| LjL | we don't need to imprison anyone | 15:23 |
| LjL | but the centralization thing is still probably a good idea | 15:23 |
| theglass | no, we're not China | 15:23 |
| theglass | definitely | 15:23 |
| theglass | uhm yeah | 15:23 |
| theglass | at least for/on emergencies | 15:24 |
| LjL | it doesn't even matter much if we like this government or not... there needs to be *a* coordinated government | 15:24 |
| theglass | yep | 15:28 |
| LjL | Conte doesn't seem like a complete idiot based on my guts feeling, but i've known to be wrong | 15:29 |
| LjL | i've been known to be wrong* | 15:29 |
| LjL | including in that sentence, apparently | 15:29 |
| theglass | well it's not that "he speaks nonsense" like Fontana said | 15:32 |
| theglass | the thing is that: | 15:33 |
| theglass | 1) Conte is the man in charge (since Prime Minister) | 15:33 |
| theglass | and he must be respected for this | 15:34 |
| theglass | 2) the government has to act for the whole country, and appeasing all the regional request (of regions who already has a lot of power and competence, in some case) it's really tiresome | 15:36 |
| theglass | in some ways he expresses also the sensibility of all the people/individuals who are pretty tired of this state of thing | 15:37 |
| LjL | i think Fontana knows this, but he just grabbed the chance to speak ill of the government | 15:37 |
| theglass | in general, aside from the emergency | 15:38 |
| theglass | probably | 15:38 |
| LjL | it's a bit funny, we aren't a federal country, we aren't even technically a devolved country, our regions aren't even autonomous in name (well, most of them, and aside from the Lombardy/etc referendums about it), but in reality the regions have key powers | 15:38 |
| theglass | they have | 15:41 |
| LjL | theglass, sometimes even the municipalities have absurd amounts of power... like you know, the kind of laws they make "you can't wear sandals further than 100m from the beach" | 15:42 |
| LjL | there've been worse ones | 15:42 |
| LjL | i bet most of those ordnances wouldn't pass a test of constitutionality, but do they ever get there? | 15:43 |
| theglass | probably not | 15:43 |
| theglass | but there are worse ones | 15:44 |
| LjL | yes, i just came up with the first one that i could think of | 15:44 |
| theglass | other than sandals | 15:44 |
| LjL | there have been some racist ones and such | 15:44 |
| Tobi[m] | current WHO report | 15:51 |
| LjL | hi, thanks, let's see | 15:54 |
| Tobi[m] | pls set a room picture and some more mods/admins | 15:54 |
| Tobi[m] | suggestion: | 15:54 |
| LjL | uh, despite being yesterday's report, the number of cases in Italy is little more than half the *actual* amount of cases there were yesterday | 15:55 |
| LjL | figure 2 is concerning, but expected given Italy and South Korea... | 15:55 |
| Tobi[m] | yeah I noticed that; news from Italy are updated hourly at the moment | 15:56 |
| LjL | Tobi[m], do you have a page where these WHO reports are published handy? we have a resources link in the topic | 15:57 |
| Tobi[m] | let me check on that | 15:57 |
| LjL | i can add https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/technical-guidance i guess for a start. the general https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019 page is honestly pretty useless, we all know we should wash our hands at this point | 15:58 |
| Tobi[m] | I guess [here are the main information]'(https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019) | 15:59 |
| LjL | beat you | 15:59 |
| Tobi[m] | Also (but not for adding to the top) [this scam alert](https://www.who.int/about/communications/cyber-security) might be interessting | 15:59 |
| LjL | ah, yeah, fake Red Cross are doing that in Italy :\ | 16:00 |
| LjL | well they literally go door to door (or phone) asking if people want to get tested | 16:00 |
| LjL | and then... i assume they steal stuff | 16:00 |
| Tobi[m] | I'll sent the room to the announce room for new users. But pls set also mods, to be safe just in case of spamming etc. | 16:01 |
| LjL | i will post this URL on twitter | 16:01 |
| LjL | hmm, this is mainly an IRC channel at this stage | 16:01 |
| Tobi[m] | If you put it to world-readable including guest I can make a public preview | 16:01 |
| Tobi[m] | Hm there is no mainly, so... it's all gathered together anyways.. | 16:02 |
| Tobi[m] | regardles from the source of posts | 16:03 |
| LjL | i don't think i'm comfortable with making it world-readable... sometimes we post things that are slightly personal (where we live and how we are affected and stuff), i know anyone can join anyway, but there are degrees | 16:06 |
| Tobi[m] | alright | 16:06 |
| LjL | and i don't know anyone on the Matrix side yet to decide on mods. with any luck i'll still be here for a while and not end up in quarantine so we can get to know each other a bit :P | 16:07 |
| Tobi[m] | In doubt make me admin/mod too, I'm known well and by some devs. | 16:10 |
| Tobi[m] | Yeah should go well, I hope. I'm in Hamburg, Germany. | 16:10 |
| LjL | i'm sadly in Milan, Italy | 16:10 |
| Tobi[m] | Also on Mastodon? | 16:11 |
| LjL | my bot is | 16:11 |
| LjL | @brainstormbot:botsin.space i think | 16:11 |
| LjL | no, it's https://botsin.space/@brainstorm/ | 16:12 |
| Tobi[m] | Ah alright, but no personal account? LjL: | 16:15 |
| LjL | no | 16:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from Google News at 16:25 UTC: Live updates: Coronavirus sparks new travel disruption; markets stabilize after earlier rout - The Washington Post: Live updates: Coronavirus sparks new travel disruption; markets stabilize after earlier rout The Washington Post Coronavirus: New global outbreaks emerge - BBC News BBC News South Korea's Coronavirus [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/LRZ4FD | 17:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit WorldNews Live at 18:15 UTC: /u/slakmehl: ABC News Politics su Twitter: "JUST IN: Americans should prepare for "significant disruptions" to their lives from coronavirus, CDC says. https://t.co/TdKwpwLmn1" — from The Guardian at 18:15: Could the coronavirus mutate if a vaccine can't be found in time? → https://is.gd/QxjhwL | 19:18 |
| contingo | righty ho | 19:19 |
| LjL | hi | 19:21 |
| contingo | you alright? | 19:22 |
| LjL | contingo, yeah i visited my sister, she's working from home and mainly staying at home, we're going to get some prescriptions hopefully via electronic means without actually visiting the doctor's office | 19:23 |
| contingo | good | 19:23 |
| LjL | many companies have closed down and having their people work from home | 19:24 |
| LjL | supermarkets are stocked if you go at the right times | 19:25 |
| LjL | we even found three ffp1 masks, probably useless, but whatever | 19:25 |
| LjL | (found forgotten inside the home that is) | 19:25 |
| contingo | I'm going through the analytics links, do we have one that gives updating best estimates of cases, mortality rate sorted by age group, comorbidity, etc. | 19:26 |
| contingo | I did see one that was updating daily | 19:26 |
| LjL | contingo, i have a picture with a graph of the mortality rates sorted by age groups, but with no souce (but it matches other things i've read) | 19:27 |
| LjL | contingo, https://i.imgur.com/NSPYeTa.png | 19:27 |
| LjL | okay so the source is BBC unless the picture has been doctored | 19:28 |
| LjL | i was just given it by someone else | 19:28 |
| contingo | that corresponds to the last stats in my head | 19:29 |
| contingo | it says Source: Chinese CDC | 19:29 |
| contingo | ok that's the stats for China | 19:29 |
| LjL | yeah | 19:29 |
| LjL | it includes Wuhan so it may be skewed compared to the stats for the rest of China + rest of the world | 19:30 |
| LjL | but do we have enough cases elsewhere to get solid statistics? | 19:30 |
| LjL | that thing is over more than 40k cases | 19:30 |
| contingo | many things are unclear even with China stats, I was just noting | 19:37 |
| LjL | contingo, well the fact Wuhan has a much higher mortality rate than everywhere-else makes it a bit of a thing of its own i guess | 19:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from Google News at 18:36 UTC: Coronavirus live updates: Italy reports 10 virus deaths as cases spike 45% in last day - CBS News: Coronavirus live updates: Italy reports 10 virus deaths as cases spike 45% in last day CBS News Photos show Italy on lockdown because of a spike in coronavirus cases - Business Insider Business Insider Coronavirus [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/cbSZ66 | 19:38 |
| contingo | yeah, well it gives a certain picture of rates under those circumstances | 19:39 |
| contingo | healthcare services overwhelmed | 19:39 |
| contingo | to a certain extent of overwhelmedness | 19:39 |
| LjL | something i don't want to think about much | 19:40 |
| LjL | but we'll get there... what's preventing it? nothing :\ | 19:40 |
| contingo | I haven't delved into the thing of prevalence of a slightly more susceptible genotype of the relevant membrane receptor in oriental peoples | 19:59 |
| LjL | contingo, i haven't heard of any info on that except clearly unfounded rumors, but, Wuhan has significantly higher mortality than *the rest of China*, not just the rest of the world | 20:01 |
| LjL | so i'm personally tempted to pin it down to the overwhelmed...ness of Wuhan/Hubei | 20:01 |
| contingo | yeah | 20:02 |
| LjL | my fear is that "proportional response" (the term my government is using) means we'll inevitably end up there | 20:02 |
| LjL | cases escalate, you escalate | 20:02 |
| LjL | until everyone is stuck at home under threat of force | 20:02 |
| LjL | which feels kinda more scary than the virus itself at times | 20:03 |
| contingo | I would like to get hold of some angiotensin II receptor blockers | 20:08 |
| LjL | contingo, those are anti-hypertensives...? | 20:09 |
| contingo | yes but they are also hypothesized to interrupt coronavirus binding | 20:10 |
| LjL | contingo, i see... wikipedia makes them sound only mildly side-effectey, too | 20:11 |
| contingo | LjL: comment on BBC news suggesting frozen pizzas, garibaldi biscuits and After Eight mints as key quarantine / prepper foodstuffs because they can be slid under doors XD | 20:13 |
| LjL | contingo, also there is still https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lopinavir/ritonavir#Research which was talked about first in Thailand then in Japan, now i don't hear anything about it, but i'm not hearing it's a failed experiment either... it still makes it sound moderately successful | 20:13 |
| LjL | contingo, ha... well in Wuhan they actually welded some people in, if images weren't doctored, and i assume they gave them food through the door slid. i also have to assume entrance doors in China open towards the exterior... or welding a metal bar in front of them wouldn't do much | 20:14 |
| contingo | it would be a major undertaking to weld me in | 20:55 |
| neoabo | Here's the recording of the Biohackers webinar about immunity and flu. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kabGRgAKi-8 | 21:17 |
| neoabo | "You can download the book here (free for a limited time: "add to cart" and checkout): | 21:18 |
| neoabo | https://biohack.to/biohackersfluguide | 21:18 |
| neoabo | If you want to send the guide to a friend, you can also send them this link." | 21:18 |
| twomoon | hi ljl do you have any antivirals? | 21:20 |
| Tobi[m] | First cases on South West Germany, it was just announced | 21:38 |
| LjL | twomoon: i have Acyclovir but I don't think that's any use here | 21:45 |
| twomoon | oh ok | 21:46 |
| twomoon | yeah never heard of it | 21:46 |
| LjL | twomoon: it's probably by far the most common antiviral sold | 21:47 |
| LjL | I have a feeling Brainstorm needs another restart. Either that, or me to figure out why it snoozes | 21:48 |
| LjL | unless somehow there aren't any news, but, well, Tobi just said there are, so | 21:48 |
| twomoon | oh ok | 21:48 |
| Tobi[m] | 25yo who visited Mailand. German language but maybe via translator: https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/corona-baden-wuerttemberg-101.html | 21:50 |
| Tobi[m] | Published 10 min ago | 21:50 |
| LjL | https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tagesschau.de%2Finland%2Fcorona-baden-wuerttemberg-101.html works | 21:50 |
| LjL | now we're going to be europe's plagueers | 21:51 |
| Tobi[m] | LjL: pls set a picture, anything. On Matrix side it’s annoying if one room in the list doesn’t show one. For me at least 😅 | 21:52 |
| twomoon | whoa he caught it in Milan it looks like | 21:52 |
| Tobi[m] | <twomoon "whoa he caught it in Milan it lo"> Yeah | 21:52 |
| LjL | Tobi[m], there's a good one on the "Coronavirus" wikipedia article, it's good also because it has a transparent background, although it doesn't depict sars-cov-2 specifically. the one you posted... do you have licensing info about it? | 21:53 |
| LjL | twomoon, Milan is sort of in a limbo where everybody knows there must be many cases, but the government is sort of eeeeeh... one thing is locking down a few small towns, another is locking down milan | 21:54 |
| Tobi[m] | No but Wikipedia usually should be good to use | 21:54 |
| LjL | let's try it | 21:55 |
| LjL-Matrix | looks a bit like mushrooms, but it'll do | 21:59 |
| LjL | for those on IRC who don't have a clue what's happening, it's this image https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/2019-nCoV-CDC-23312_without_background.png being set as the Matrix room avatar | 22:00 |
| Tobi[m] | Was thinking of making a website and communication stuff and exchange for potentially locked down areas, good idea? So that people can socialize | 22:01 |
| Tobi[m] | Yeah I guess we now are half/half Matrix and IRC so whatever the source is, all together is good. We could also bridge to Telegram. I can have a look at that tomorrow if I find time | 22:02 |
| twomoon | looks like some super spreader got it in northern italy | 22:05 |
| twomoon | all it takes is one or two super spreaders and case tally goes through the roof | 22:05 |
| twomoon | i wonder why the CDC decided to come out with strong language suddenly | 22:07 |
| Tobi[m] | Ya, a cool, a prostitution and clients then going on a ship were all are close and then you have a super cluster | 22:08 |
| Tobi[m] | CDC Germany (RKI) heavily working on vaccination and medicamentation, already in animal testing but not sure if it works. In H1N1 / H1N5 it all worked out and a vaccination was found quickly | 22:09 |
| Tobi[m] | Imagine you’d have nCOV with an animal vector, it would already be spread world wide | 22:11 |
| twomoon | Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar added: “We can’t hermetically seal off the United States.” | 22:23 |
| LjL | Tobi[m], i intend to make the resources link above into a wiki because a pastebin is really lackluster... but for a lockdown map, i think the reddit people are doing great at https://ncov2019.live/map - it's pretty much the best map i've encountered in a number of ways (not in every way, it's not the most up to date or the best to look at sheer numbers), i don't think i want to duplicate that work | 22:24 |
| LjL | it'll spread, it's already spread within the United States, it's pointless to "hermetically" seal the borders even if they could | 22:25 |
| LjL | i'm pretty sure they have more cases in the US than they say they have (not saying they're lying, just that they aren't testing) | 22:25 |
| twomoon | prob since they havent stopped travel to SK even | 22:26 |
| Tobi[m] | For MX maybe a mark down [pad](https://md.kabi.tk), I could add that as named integration, we have that in various rooms. For collect information. | 22:27 |
| Tobi[m] | <twomoon "prob since they havent stopped t"> SK? | 22:27 |
| LjL | south korea | 22:28 |
| twomoon | infected folks were present in South Korea a month back probably and ppl have been travelling too and from south korea and still are | 22:30 |
| twomoon | i don't think we're even blocking South Korean visa holders yet like we do now for CHinese Visa holders | 22:30 |
| LjL | infections in Italy are being estimated to have occurred some 20-25 days ago (i remember 20 but i don't remember how many days ago they said that :P) | 22:30 |
| LjL | Italy was the first and only country in Europe to stop all direct flights to/from China, and look at how well that worked :P | 22:31 |
| twomoon | Daaaaaamn LjL | 22:32 |
| twomoon | that's a tough bit of info to swallow | 22:32 |
| twomoon | then Italy suffers from an extreme case of bad luck i'd say | 22:33 |
| twomoon | i think the world suffers from not instituting il lavormento a distanza and l'apprendimento a distanza soon enough | 22:34 |
| LjL | twomoon, there are only so many large countries in europe, when you roll the dice one of them has to come up. anyway rest assured other countries will be joining us soon enough... | 22:34 |
| LjL | oh well this may become a lesson on that | 22:34 |
| LjL | many companies now are closing down and having people remote work | 22:35 |
| LjL | maybe they'll find out it's not such a bad idea in general | 22:35 |
| LjL | should i look at today's numbers? i haven't yet | 22:36 |
| LjL | maybe i shouldn't, i'm not freaking out right now, better not start | 22:36 |
| theglass | yes | 22:36 |
| twomoon | just work on securing some food | 22:36 |
| LjL | we have a few days' worth of food i think, we should be fine with that | 22:36 |
| theglass | and for this reason, here's the question I was mumbling on | 22:37 |
| LjL | supermarkets are very heavily hoarded but they are restocking in time | 22:37 |
| Tobi[m] | Moving to a tiny hut in the woods would be good, with solar cells and enough food and natural water 😅 | 22:37 |
| theglass | does this virus also spread via Internet? | 22:37 |
| theglass | are we safe? | 22:37 |
| theglass | oh no | 22:37 |
| LjL | i think the food/supermarket situation may change if they actually lock down Milan, but they are hinting that they won't... in the red zone, supermarkets can be entered in small groups | 22:38 |
| LjL | so there are long queues outside | 22:38 |
| LjL | but anyway we have two fridges, we'll have food for a while | 22:39 |
| theglass | I was thinking that a Matrix client cannot infect an IRC client | 22:41 |
| Tobi[m] | Still Corona is lighter then influenza, the progress is longer but still it’s not too much compared to other diseases. So if all do the WHO advisory, no contact to strangers, no kissing as greeting, desinfecting surfaces and hands, it should be somehow okayish | 22:41 |
| twomoon | the fact that italy has so many cases is a good thing, i bet germany has cases that they're not even aware of | 22:41 |
| theglass | so even if you had a syringe on yours, I'm sorry LjL | 22:42 |
| LjL | there's this idea that it's lighter than influenza but i don't see hard facts about that. is it lighter than influenza, contingo? | 22:42 |
| theglass | textual clients wins again | 22:42 |
| LjL | it's certainly more fatal than influenza in Hubei/Wuhan | 22:42 |
| theglass | win* | 22:42 |
| twomoon | i bet mexico and US have cases that have not been noted yet. some chinese guy who had the virus visited mexico city i believe | 22:42 |
| LjL | and 15% of cases end up hospitalized, which is not the case for influenza | 22:42 |
| LjL | that can be a big problem when enough of the population needs to be hospitalized so that there aren't nearly enough beds | 22:42 |
| twomoon | more like 20% i believe | 22:42 |
| Tobi[m] | <LjL "it's certainly more fatal than i"> But only there and we have no fully information from there | 22:43 |
| contingo | are you asking about mass? | 22:43 |
| LjL | i mean it's probably not the apocalypse, but it's not just your regular influenza (and note that *some* flus have been really horrible, like the Spanish) | 22:43 |
| twomoon | yeah the medical apparatus is going to get overwhelmed ljl | 22:43 |
| LjL | contingo, no | 22:43 |
| LjL | Tobi[m], well, in Italy, so far the rate is also around 2-3% | 22:43 |
| contingo | you mean typical severity of symptoms? | 22:44 |
| LjL | so indeed the most we can say is we don't have enough hard data to say | 22:44 |
| Tobi[m] | Yep | 22:44 |
| LjL | contingo, i mean whatever may counter claims that it's not concerning compared to your regular influenza | 22:44 |
| twomoon | ljl can you buy an oxygen concentrator or get an O2 tank? | 22:44 |
| LjL | if it were as concerning as regular influenza, cities wouldn't be getting locked down... or is everyone just gone crazy? | 22:44 |
| LjL | twomoon, honestly no idea, is that equipment that can be operated by random people anyway? | 22:45 |
| LjL | i'd have no idea how to use that stuff | 22:45 |
| contingo | the mortality rates are higher than for regular influenza | 22:45 |
| twomoon | ahh ok i'm not sure | 22:45 |
| LjL | contingo, Tobi[m] is saying "only in Wuhan", i believe | 22:45 |
| twomoon | i used to work at a company that manufactured O2 concentrators but i never figured out the regulations for them | 22:46 |
| LjL | twomoon, pure oxygen is kinda dangerous, i know that much. i don't suppose i can buy a concentrator on amazon, lol | 22:46 |
| LjL | although... | 22:46 |
| LjL | web searches are cheap :o | 22:46 |
| twomoon | i thought gearbest sells everything lol | 22:46 |
| LjL | other people have definitely searched for these on amazon | 22:47 |
| LjL | (since it's autocompleting it) | 22:47 |
| LjL | predictably expensive, though | 22:47 |
| twomoon | when your lungs start to get infected it's nice being able to breathe a higher concentration of O2 | 22:47 |
| contingo | you are saying also in Italy... we'll have a clearer and clearer picture as weeks go by | 22:47 |
| contingo | I would be cautious about self-administering supplementary oxygen | 22:48 |
| Tobi[m] | <contingo "you are saying also in Italy... "> Ya as we are always like 10 days behind, we don’t know what the real infection cases are right now and also not who is getting infected at the moment. Maybe we all have it and yet not showing symptoms.. | 22:49 |
| LjL | contingo, i would not self-administer supplementary oxygen at all, i'd be calling an ambulance. but this is in the scenario where there's no hospital beds or ICUs left... | 22:50 |
| LjL | there's one cheaper machine (€130) that has only 3 left. it's tempting, and yes, probably silly | 22:50 |
| twomoon | what happens when you have pneumonia is that the lack of oxygen affects the function of your liver/kidney and other organs before it affects your brain and heart | 22:51 |
| twomoon | a lot of people wind up dying because their liver/kidney fail | 22:51 |
| LjL | Tobi[m], yes, maybe there are many more cases than reported, but on the other hand, deaths/cases is also a flawed metric until the epidemic is over (i.e. not soon). if you do deaths/(deaths+recoveries), you get a much bleaker number, although *that* one is most probably overestimated. but again, point is, it could be much more than 2% or it could be much less than 2%. it's really a bit of a crapshot | 22:52 |
| LjL | twomoon, well this virus also seems to be directly causing inflammation of liver/kidney in some people, presumably through the immune system going haywire... | 22:52 |
| twomoon | i also suspect liver reactions to drugs given | 22:53 |
| twomoon | i know two people who died not from their underlying disease but from liver reactions to drugs they were given | 22:53 |
| LjL | knew :( | 22:53 |
| Tobi[m] | Well if it’s going so, US might be leader on the cases: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/health-care/article240476806.html | 22:54 |
| LjL | theglass, this italian enterpreneur who lives in China just said on Cartabianca that he's not too worried for China and its economy because they're handling it well, but he thinks in Europe it will be utter chaos. he worded it pretty strongly. | 22:54 |
| twomoon | i'm fucked | 22:55 |
| twomoon | i don't even have health insurance | 22:55 |
| LjL | Tobi[m], i do suspect the US is severely underestimating cases, but there are many rumors so who knows | 22:55 |
| LjL | twomoon, for the little i know... if anything like that happens, call the CDC, don't call an hospital | 22:56 |
| LjL | the US is a bit despicable sometimes though, really | 22:56 |
| Tobi[m] | Yeah | 22:56 |
| contingo | a lot of my family have retreated to Singapore from supposedly much less affected areas/countries | 22:57 |
| LjL | "In 2018, President Donald Trump’s administration rolled back Affordable Care Act regulations and allowed so-called “junk plans” in the market. Consumers mistakenly assume that the plans with lower monthly costs will be better than no insurance at all in case of a medical catastrophe, but often the plans aren’t very different from going without insurance altogether." | 22:57 |
| LjL | this looks like a case of the US being despicable | 22:57 |
| LjL | contingo, are you still mulling on the idea? | 22:57 |
| twomoon | when trump repealed the mandate my insurance cost went through the roof, like up 13% year over year | 22:57 |
| twomoon | it was insane and i had to give it up | 22:57 |
| LjL | i don't know why people are hoarding *fresh* foods here | 22:58 |
| LjL | they'll just end up throwing it all away | 22:58 |
| LjL | this is not called prepared, this is called being morons | 22:58 |
| twomoon | they probably pickle the fresh veggies | 22:58 |
| wwinfo[m] | mr. Trump works on the wall, that will spread man to man transmission from migrants from the south | 22:58 |
| contingo | I'm mulling generally yes | 22:58 |
| wwinfo[m] | also afaik mr. Trump was against bringing in the possibly-ill Americans from Diamond Princess or something? and DHS against his wishes brought them in? | 22:59 |
| LjL | oh they're showing the milan metro... | 22:59 |
| LjL | it's not as empty as i was hoping | 22:59 |
| contingo | I'm also feeling a bit ill | 22:59 |
| LjL | contingo, eep. fever? | 23:00 |
| LjL | sigh | 23:02 |
| LjL | theglass, they showed in the Milan metro, shady people are selling face masks in corners | 23:02 |
| twomoon | where are you located contingo ? | 23:02 |
| LjL | basically like they're selling drugs | 23:02 |
| LjL | i thought i'd take the metro tomorrow but i'm not so sure now | 23:02 |
| wwinfo[m] | <LjL "i thought i'd take the metro tom"> why not stay home for some time? | 23:04 |
| LjL | life can't just stop | 23:05 |
| contingo | no fever. achey fatigue, malaise. only at the level that I skipped exercise | 23:05 |
| LjL | chances are i've already been exposed | 23:05 |
| LjL | contingo, well if you get fever, you should definitely not take a paracetamol to be able to fly to singapore while passing the temperature tests, because that'd be a bad thing to do | 23:06 |
| contingo | the facility where I reckon our Dept of Health is doing all the coronavirus genomics is just down the road from that oriental food court, LjL XD | 23:06 |
| LjL | contingo, meh, the Chinese here have been mocking us a little and "reassuring" us that they're not scared of italians carrying the virus, after everyone was pointing fingers at them at first before there were cases, and now it seems they've got nothing to do with it | 23:07 |
| LjL | anyway, they've closed down all shops in Chinatown, partly because they had few remaining customers anyway, partly for safety, and partly to avoid being the scapegoat | 23:07 |
| contingo | Bang Bang Oriental Food Hall in Colindale, North London, was thriving, as well as Chinatown itself (to my eyes, although there's a reported downturn in business) | 23:09 |
| contingo | haven't spotted a single face mask | 23:09 |
| contingo | I've also visited two university campuses in the past two days | 23:09 |
| contingo | the 0.4% mortality rate for my age group at the epicentre also goes down for me if you start binning more finely by age and comorbidity, but you lose statistical confidence | 23:12 |
| LjL | contingo, i'm more worried about 1) hospitalization 2) isolation/quarantine 3) family 4) doomsday scenarios of hoardings and societal degeneration... than about simply dying from this virus | 23:14 |
| contingo | yes, exactly | 23:14 |
| contingo | that's what draws me to Singapore | 23:14 |
| LjL | but it could also be what drives one away from Singapore | 23:14 |
| LjL | but i guess you'd know | 23:14 |
| contingo | London would be such a shitshow | 23:14 |
| LjL | Milan is not being great so far | 23:14 |
| contingo | I kind of know, plus I have unfair advantages there | 23:14 |
| twomoon | are you buying any stocks on the cheap right now contingo ? | 23:15 |
| twomoon | sorry this is off topic | 23:15 |
| LjL | stuff that is too personal may be better kept in private i guess. i'm not telling you what you can talk about, just saying this is a public channel that may get logged and everything | 23:15 |
| twomoon | contingo you should be concerned about long term cell damage to your lungs, not mortus | 23:16 |
| LjL | ugh | 23:16 |
| LjL | right, there is that too | 23:16 |
| LjL | i'd been trying to forget about that particular unknown | 23:16 |
| twomoon | sorry | 23:16 |
| contingo | lung damage is highly correlated with how close to death you get though | 23:16 |
| LjL | it's okay, i'm in a channel called ##covid-19 | 23:16 |
| LjL | contingo, i wonder if there may be subtle lung damage in people mildly symptomatic... like, you take a spirometry before and one after, and things are different | 23:17 |
| LjL | i've often heard about this virus that most "comparable" respiratory viruses don't really get as low as the lungs | 23:18 |
| twomoon | like i caught a virus last november, it was really bad and my throat still feels as if i drank water that was too hot | 23:19 |
| twomoon | that's the cell damage from the virus | 23:19 |
| LjL | well but in that case, your throat will eventually go back to normal | 23:19 |
| LjL | will the lungs? | 23:19 |
| twomoon | lungs have more specialized tissue | 23:20 |
| contingo | my attitude is, an unknown potentially unprecedented rate of post-viral fibrosis or other lung damage, is not something that my being concerned or not concerned can do anything about right now. I'll stay informed on concrete studies about it | 23:23 |
| LjL | contingo, it may change some of my behaviors honestly. if i believe that my risk of death due to cohort is so low as to be negligible, i might do certain things, while if i know that even if i don't die, i am rather likely to have permanent damage, i might not do certain things or do other things | 23:25 |
| contingo | but we don't know that, it's just another known unknown, among many | 23:25 |
| twomoon | well, we know what hospitals do for pneumonia patients. they give them oxygen therapy. if i can't get a hospital bed the next best thing is to have an oxygen concentrator | 23:27 |
| twomoon | if i can get one for the price of my typical monthly insurance premium then i think i should do it | 23:28 |
| contingo | go for it | 23:29 |
| LjL | i kind of want to do it for my parents... but my parents will yell at me the moment they see it | 23:30 |
| contingo | the relationship between my decisions about what to do, and the big pile of known unknowns in relation to this pathogen is quite complex. Attempting a total rationalization of my position every day is counterproductive | 23:30 |
| contingo | I've prepped my home and modified my behaviors more than most, but less than some | 23:32 |
| contingo | and I have some relocation options that I will keep under consideration | 23:32 |
| twomoon | focus on the basics then: food, water, oxygen | 23:33 |
| LjL | contingo, just make sure you enforce them before they're taken away from you :P i'm still not 100% convinced Milan won't be locked down... they've kind of said it won't, but if they're smart about it, that's what they'd do | 23:33 |
| twomoon | relocation is a distant fourth compared to those three for me | 23:33 |
| contingo | it's high on the list for me | 23:34 |
| twomoon | if i lived in a multi-family building then relocation may be something i'd consider | 23:35 |
| LjL | this oxygen concentrator that's cheap looks a bit too cheap | 23:37 |
| LjL | also i should probably have a look at how these things even work, i've found it's often a bad idea to buy things without having a clue about them | 23:37 |
| twomoon | yeah i don't have a clue either | 23:37 |
| twomoon | i'm gonna look around at gearbest | 23:38 |
| twomoon | what's gonna start happening is they're only gonna give hospital beds to the patients in the worst condition | 23:39 |
| LjL | twomoon, if you order from gearbest when will you get it? | 23:40 |
| LjL | i was thinking of getting one that'll get here before we're all dead :P | 23:40 |
| twomoon | shit i have to know where it's coming from don't i | 23:41 |
| LjL | twomoon, i think buying it from outside of the US would be a bit silly at this stage | 23:44 |
| LjL | i mean, or outside wherever you are, it would be silly for me to buy it from outside the EU | 23:45 |
| twomoon | probably | 23:45 |
| LjL | the situation with the management of this in italy doesn't seem... optimal, at least not from what i'm gathering from this tv show | 23:49 |
| LjL | maybe some of you can tell me what you think about getting this info from tv shows, but still | 23:49 |
| LjL | if you have symptoms you are supposed not to go out for any reason, and to call a certain number, but apparently that number never answers | 23:49 |
| LjL | and nurses and doctors are kinda getting all anxious about *their* lack of protective equipment | 23:50 |
| twomoon | that may be better than what china has done which is to gather all coughing/sneezing people in the same place | 23:50 |
| LjL | if random people could stash face masks to sell on the metro, surely the government could have stashed some for their doctors? | 23:50 |
| LjL | twomoon, that was the last thing they did though. and after that, the number of cases started tapering. it does seem like a bit of an inhumane thing to do, but that wouldn't be a first for China... | 23:51 |
| LjL | what might be a first is: what happens when we, in the Democratically Developed World, see the excrement hitting the rotating blades real bad and expect it to drop back onto us? | 23:51 |
| LjL | in other words, let's see how many quarantine camps we have around 15 March | 23:51 |
| twomoon | smart ljl | 23:53 |
| LjL | <CarlSagan> [NYT - Science] C.D.C. Officials Warn of Coronavirus Outbreaks in the U.S. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/25/health/coronavirus-us.html 2020-02-25T22:19:46 | 23:55 |
| contingo | hence my wanting to retreat to an authoritarian single-party fully developed island-state | 23:57 |
| contingo | where the government has already supplied some masks to every household and seems in a very good state of preparedness | 23:58 |
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