| LjL | i find it annoying when wikipedia is blamed for *others misinterpreting what it is*, or people just generally being lazy with sources | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| mefistofeles | in that sense, wikipedia is orders of magnitude better | 00:00 |
| mefistofeles | so I still fail to see the real issue | 00:00 |
| bin_bash | LjL: because wikipedia is often lazy with sources. and when i say wikipedia i mean the platform | 00:00 |
| bin_bash | not jimmy wales | 00:00 |
| LjL | the platform isn't meant to take any stance on the content | 00:00 |
| mefistofeles | ↑ | 00:00 |
| bin_bash | and yet it does | 00:00 |
| LjL | that is one of the core tenets that most contributors take up arms if they feel is being violated | 00:01 |
| bin_bash | that's the problem lol | 00:01 |
| mefistofeles | bin_bash: not it doesn't | 00:01 |
| mefistofeles | people do | 00:01 |
| bin_bash | there are so many fucking political arguments on wikipedia | 00:01 |
| LjL | so, thankfully, YES, you are right, the platform itself tends not to meddle! | 00:01 |
| bin_bash | because (spoiler) it's run by people | 00:01 |
| ecov | like the government? | 00:01 |
| mefistofeles | I mean, yes, of course everything is biased ina way | 00:01 |
| mefistofeles | but again, that's not a wikipedia specific thing | 00:01 |
| mefistofeles | if anything is less in wikipedia than alternatives | 00:02 |
| mefistofeles | specially for popular topics, for niche topics is a bit harder | 00:02 |
| mefistofeles | hello? | 00:04 |
| bin_bash | ehh id have to go hunt down the articles im thinking of and i dont really care that much, but wikipedia tends to be kinda biased. things getting locked because theyre not politically correct | 00:04 |
| mefistofeles | haha | 00:04 |
| bin_bash | since i already had this up from something else, not much effort to hunt down: https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiInAction/comments/3p93f5/wikipedia_tries_to_make_the_political_correctness/ | 00:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 22:00 UTC: Watch live: Coronavirus task force holds briefing after lawmakers fail to pass more funding: Members of the coronavirus task force are expected to hold a press briefing Monday after lawmakers fail to reach a deal on additional funding for the SBA loan program. Senate will try again on Tuesday. → https://is.gd/sjYlYY | 00:05 |
| mefistofeles | bin_bash: I agree, but that's not a wikipedia specific thing, that's happening everywhere... and you will have to prove that it's significantly worse in wikipedia to discredit it as a source of information sources | 00:05 |
| bin_bash | mefistofeles: rather than linking to wikipedia though, just link to the sources | 00:08 |
| bin_bash | that's my point. | 00:08 |
| mefistofeles | bin_bash: yes, I commonly do taht, depending on what I'm trying to communicate | 00:08 |
| mefistofeles | sources are specific, wikipedia's articles are more general | 00:08 |
| mefistofeles | I check the sanity of the article beforehand of course | 00:09 |
| bin_bash | you're in the minority then | 00:10 |
| ryouma | i think linking to wp can be extremely lazy. in retrospect, it would have been better to allow the joke to be not-understood by those unfamiliar with the topic. | 00:10 |
| mefistofeles | also, I've made tons of corrections to wikipedia over the years | 00:11 |
| mefistofeles | only once I had a problem with an editor/moderator/staff | 00:12 |
| mefistofeles | and at the end we reached a consensus | 00:12 |
| LjL | ecov, just when you had that facebook diatribe earlier, honestly i find Facebook's actions objectionable repeatedly, even when i've already experienced them being objectionable before... but that said, can you explain why you'd respond to a question about autism by implying the asker is autistic? | 00:12 |
| mefistofeles | I even have article completely written by me :) | 00:12 |
| mefistofeles | *articles | 00:12 |
| mefistofeles | well, just like 3 or 4 :P | 00:13 |
| mefistofeles | also, I tried asking earlier ... I've heard there is some data or press releases about Germany having the R0 rate below 1 even before the lockdown measures that were implemented. Any sources on that? | 00:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 22:16 UTC: (news): Coronavirus antibody testing shows LA County outbreak is up to 55 times bigger than reported cases → https://is.gd/LzlYUn | 00:19 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, i saw it, but i don't know. however, it is more or less my understanding that, under an assumption that case data are reliable (which we know they tend not to be, but R values may also be naively calculated based on those, in articles etc), a linear or less-than-linear case graph implies an R of 1 or below | 00:19 |
| mefistofeles | https://www.dw.com/en/colombian-markets-pose-risk-despite-covid-19-precautions/av-53186404 heh interesting | 00:20 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: yeah, but what I'm really wondering is that some claim the lockdown measures actually didn't do anything significant to lower that R0 coefficient | 00:21 |
| mefistofeles | but on the other hand could damage the economy significantly without a real reason... of course, again , judging already by the outcome, which is easy | 00:22 |
| stinkpot | hmm how could they not lower R0 | 00:26 |
| stinkpot | that doesn't make sense, i hope you don't believe that | 00:26 |
| sternenmusik[m] | <mefistofeles "also, I tried asking earlier ..."> Reasonable because most educated Germans have been aware of what to expect end of January and therefore started to be careful, but there are always people who wait for instruction from government, deny anything scary etc. this is why more then 50% were still careless, went to Clubs, Carnival, Apres Ski,... hope this does answer your question. I do have dozens of | 00:26 |
| sternenmusik[m] | data and releases, but I dont want to spent hours on this. | 00:26 |
| stinkpot | if lockdown measures aren't really being enforced then yeah i could see that | 00:27 |
| stinkpot | like if people are secretly having parties with their neighbors | 00:27 |
| stinkpot | but also keep in mind that almost every country has a measurement problem (ie, testing problem) | 00:28 |
| stinkpot | all our measurements of R0 are based on guesswork and extrapolation | 00:28 |
| mefistofeles | sternenmusik[m]: but I don't get it (I'm also in Germany, btw)... I never got the feeling of people expecting it in any way, tbh. | 00:28 |
| mefistofeles | and what these antibody tests and random tests are showing is that there were already many cases before lockdown measures, but still a lot of data is needed | 00:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | want guesswork? https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/Infekt/EpidBull/Archiv/2020/Ausgaben/17_20_SARS-CoV2_vorab.pdf | 00:30 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, do you know the day the lockdown started? (i'd have to look it up, you may just know it) | 00:30 |
| mefistofeles | not only active but even recovered | 00:30 |
| mefistofeles | before the lockdown measures | 00:30 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: hmm yes, one sec | 00:30 |
| LjL | stinkpot, mefistofeles: <20stinkpot18> hmm how could they not lower R0 ← i think that's a good question but not really just a rhetorical question. i think in italy, despite what is considered one of the "hardest" lockdowns in Europe, at least in terms of what's forbidden and banned, the trend is still not clear, at least in Lombardy, where the real trouble still is (and in Piedmont now also)... so, HOW can this hard lockdown still BARELY b | 00:31 |
| LjL | e lowering the R? | 00:31 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: I think it ws March 16 | 00:33 |
| mefistofeles | was* | 00:33 |
| sternenmusik[m] | <mefistofeles "sternenmusik: but I don't get it"> ... 30th of January I personally started to try and find out if out healthcare system is prepared and after few days around 06.02./07.02. the penny began to drop with many people. | 00:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 22:24 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: Australia coronavirus live: Virgin expected to go into administration as NSW announces staggered return to school – latest updates → https://is.gd/gKNEub | 00:34 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, before March 16, on offloop, i see a *clearly* exponential case trend | 00:34 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: yes, because of testing | 00:34 |
| mefistofeles | not because of actual spread | 00:34 |
| mefistofeles | I mean, that's the hypothesis | 00:34 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, that's your claim, or their claim? | 00:34 |
| LjL | okay | 00:34 |
| stinkpot | one theory is that if R0 is super high, it doesn't matter. if R0 is super high it means it can go out the window, float in the breeze, and enter your neighbor's window | 00:35 |
| stinkpot | i guess if R0 is on the order of 5 or higher that can happen | 00:35 |
| mefistofeles | you can actually see that the testing did follow an exponential growth similar to the confirmed cases curve | 00:35 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, well, i think it's extremely difficult to figure out the "cases vs tests" thing. you can look at the percentage of positive tests, and it gives you a very rough idea of... what? because there are also hidden variables: who is being tested? are the tests being more correctly targeted today than yesterday? (there may have been some policy change, and we don't know that for sure) | 00:35 |
| mefistofeles | specially in the beginning (around those days) | 00:36 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, i write long things but basically what i'm saying is that confirmed/tests may give us one more variable compared to confirmed alone, but it's still too few variable to solve whatever heuristic, human-included, system of equation that's part of | 00:36 |
| LjL | "confirmed" and in confirmed positive cases, and "/" as in divided by | 00:37 |
| LjL | also apparently i *really* cannot use plurals | 00:37 |
| mefistofeles | DocScrutinizer05: that shows the figure, nice, thanks for that ref | 00:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yw | 00:37 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: check the document DocScrutinizer05 sent | 00:38 |
| mefistofeles | and figgure Abb. 4 | 00:38 |
| mefistofeles | figure* | 00:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "nowcasting" wellwellwell | 00:39 |
| sternenmusik[m] | The WHO actually did provide detailed instruction about infection protection, control, clinical management and home care between 20.01.2020 and 28.01.2020 🤷🏻♂️ | 00:40 |
| mefistofeles | anyways, the claims were wrong (as I suspected) | 00:40 |
| mefistofeles | the R wasn't below 1 at the time, but the tendency to go down was already seen indeed | 00:40 |
| mefistofeles | sternenmusik[m]: yes, true | 00:41 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, well... if we believe that R graph, yeah, i suppose, but do we? or as importantly, do the critics? | 00:41 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, as to the tendency... i am not honestly surprised at a downwards tendency when people already knew about what was happening in Italy and there might already have been a chilling effect of sorts, and some companies may have decided to make people work from home, etc... even before an officially mandated lockdown. | 00:42 |
| mefistofeles | I actually do, it also lines well with the carnival thing | 00:42 |
| mefistofeles | that happened in the 09.03 to 16.03 week | 00:42 |
| LjL | okay, that too then | 00:42 |
| mefistofeles | specially clos to the 09.03 weekend | 00:42 |
| stinkpot | lines up well* | 00:42 |
| mefistofeles | sternenmusik[m]: thanks | 00:42 |
| mefistofeles | arre, stinkpot ↑ | 00:42 |
| mefistofeles | xD | 00:42 |
| LjL | but a downward trend doesn't mean it might not have stabilized above 1, without the lockdown | 00:42 |
| LjL | somewhat above one | 00:42 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: it doesn't show a real change in trend from 16.03 tbh | 00:43 |
| Zalyssa | egal | 00:43 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, if anything, i'd be looking at that graph and worrying that, like in Italy and Lombardy in particular, it is still *barely* below 1. so what is NOT working? | 00:43 |
| mefistofeles | and it's not crazy, germans are already good at social distancing | 00:43 |
| sangy | so what is phase 1 in the federal US govt plan and what is phase 2? | 00:43 |
| mefistofeles | and as I said here repeatedly, everything seemed normal in many ways, from my perspective | 00:43 |
| mefistofeles | other than shops/bars/restaurant closed | 00:44 |
| sangy | phase 1 is "some business open up" and phase 2 "y'all open up unlesss you're a conference"? | 00:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | note that the RKI diagrams show actual R, _not_ the effects seen 2 weeks later | 00:44 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, it also shows a perfectly straight line between March 12, and March 15 (if i can count). it might just be a coincidence, but does that graph use very granular data? | 00:44 |
| berndj | can sars-cov-2 enter through some wound nowhere near the respiratory system, like a scrape on the skin maybe? | 00:44 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: yeah, that's probably not data in-between that straight line | 00:45 |
| mefistofeles | but you cannot expect to vary that much in just a few days | 00:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | berndj: seems highly unlikely | 00:45 |
| berndj | DocScrutinizer05, i'm not asking out of paranoia, rather the opposite. does the immune system even "see" the virus if it lands on an open skin wound? | 00:46 |
| berndj | i don't see why it wouldn't be able to enter any cell that expresses enough ACE2? | 00:46 |
| mefistofeles | berndj: that has been studied | 00:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I have no idea, bzt for my layman's understabding it's a mucous tissue virus that doesn't really propagate via blood | 00:47 |
| mefistofeles | actually, as usual, Derek Lowe sums it up really well, one sec | 00:47 |
| mefistofeles | berndj: https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/04/20/good-news-on-the-coronavirus-angiotensin-connection | 00:48 |
| berndj | mefistofeles, i'm wondering if, whether deliberately or accidentally, any old school "variolation" has been going on | 00:48 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, probably not, but trends can be deceptive to the eye, and small changes in the graph may make the trends look different. for instance, with that straight line, there is then a definitely distinct change in trends on the 15th. it's a *slowing* of the trend, so in and of itself, it really doesn't speak in favor of the lockdown, even if we pretend it happened on the 15th and not the 16th... but if we assume that the preceding "mountain" was | 00:48 |
| LjL | caused by the carnival, then that graph doesn't tell us that whatever changed around the 15-16th may NOT have gone differently without the lockdown | 00:48 |
| mefistofeles | I was already into Derek Lowe's writing before all of this, but this covid-19 situation made me appreciate his work even more | 00:48 |
| berndj | yeah i've seen his blog before, and agree his covid19 posts are worth every minute spent reading them | 00:49 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: the problem with lockdown measures are things like what I've shown some mins ago about the colombian market | 00:49 |
| mefistofeles | people actually gathering in markets and such, because of fear or preparing for scarcity, etc. | 00:50 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, well, i don't know how many times i have repeated, about italy, that we need to CLOSE THE DAMNED SUPERMARKETS AND BOOST DELIVERIES | 00:50 |
| LjL | anyone who's seen me type that thing in caps before, raise their hand | 00:50 |
| Brainstorm | o/ | 00:50 |
| mefistofeles | well, yes, that could help, but in the end, not needed, as many regions in Germany have shown, I think | 00:50 |
| mefistofeles | it varies from region to region | 00:51 |
| mefistofeles | and, unless you were really prepared for this 2-3 weeks before the actual lockdown measures, I couldn't see this not happening at all | 00:52 |
| mefistofeles | I just can't wait the large scale random antibodies test in Bavaria, tbh | 00:52 |
| mefistofeles | that will help answering many questions | 00:52 |
| LjL | everywhere | 00:52 |
| berndj | mefistofeles, i'm not sure i see anything in that blog post addressing my question though?? | 00:52 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, it will if we agree on the sampling and on the antibody test being sound ;) | 00:53 |
| sternenmusik[m] | <mefistofeles "I just can't wait the large scal"> Agree. | 00:53 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, and that's basically me making a prediction of what there will be disagreements on | 00:53 |
| LjL | (a cheap prediction quite likely) | 00:53 |
| ircnick | what if the virus has it's own timeline, if you look how previous Flu epidemics have gone? | 00:53 |
| mefistofeles | berndj: well, you didn't read it completely (that's ok), it's a bit technical | 00:54 |
| sternenmusik[m] | <LjL "mefistofeles, it will if we agre"> Agree with you as well, something says me that the overall testing is not accurate. | 00:54 |
| berndj | LjL, not that i disagree with you about supermarkets, but what exactly is your concern? is it something that could be mitigated if people actually wore their masks properly (and if all of them did)? | 00:54 |
| LjL | ircnick, flu's "timeline" is dictated by temperature, as far as we understand, but supported by the fact that it happens at different times in the hemispheres. but this virus is now thriving in hot climates, and being put under control in Australia. there is a paper that shows a *weak* effect of temperature on the virus, and basically, there is no reason to expect it will mimick the flu's seasonality | 00:54 |
| ircnick | mysteriously appears and disappears despite humans best efforts | 00:54 |
| berndj | mefistofeles, i admit to mostly scanning it, but it seems to be more about ACE inhibitors rather than about viral entry in random tissues? | 00:55 |
| mefistofeles | but basically, what it says is that these drugs for fighting hypertension are known to make cells over-express the ACE2 receptor... but tests have not shown any negative effect because of that, if any it was possitive | 00:55 |
| mefistofeles | berndj: ↑ | 00:55 |
| berndj | mefistofeles, yeah but how does that address my question at all? | 00:55 |
| LjL | berndj, we do still have a problem with mask supplies, and some of the masks being "made in Italy" are of a really poor quality. but even if we suppose that masks are fine now, we've had a shortage for many weeks now, many weeks during which supermarkets have remained open. and the other big objection from me is that supermarkets are places where everyone touches everything. i do believe in surfaces being an important source of contagion | 00:55 |
| sternenmusik[m] | <berndj "LjL, not that i disagree with yo"> I do have a major concern, I understand there are living viruses in the cool and frozen... | 00:56 |
| mefistofeles | berndj: ok true, this is an article that follows others, but you may check the others | 00:56 |
| ircnick | my understanding is cold weather, people are close together again , is part of what makes a flu season, should be same in covid | 00:56 |
| LjL | berndj, normally, when i go to a supermarket, and i eye an item, i will touch at least 3 or 4 of the same item, to make sure i'm getting a reasonable expiration date. for fruit and vegetables, i will touch them to make sure they are not rotting... sure, gloves are provided for that, but people use all this kind of stuff somewhat incorrectly, we are not all virology lab technicians, sadly | 00:57 |
| mefistofeles | but basically it says that ACE2 alone doesn't explains it | 00:57 |
| mefistofeles | afaics | 00:57 |
| berndj | LjL, what sort of touching behaviour? picking stuff up, putting it down again, picking another thing up, etc.? | 00:57 |
| mefistofeles | explain* | 00:57 |
| ecov | LjL: i caught myself doing that today | 00:57 |
| ecov | to check exp. dates | 00:57 |
| LjL | ecov, it's an ingrained behavior, we'll do it without thinking even if we know it's best not to now | 00:58 |
| berndj | LjL, how "compliant" are italians with advice to properly wash stuff etc.? | 00:58 |
| mefistofeles | the other thing I've heard... and please don'tkill me for it... is that bad flu seasons in Germany have shown to kill even 100k people, and that the overall death rate of these first quarter of the year wasn't higher than the previous 5 years | 00:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | mefistofeles: was it you who wanted to see the pre-symptomatic 44% infection study which Drosten cited preprint? | 00:59 |
| mefistofeles | they actually said it was lower, but that s probably pushing it | 00:59 |
| berndj | i basically put all my groceries through my washing-the-dishes routine now, but i'm pretty sure most people aren't doing that | 00:59 |
| mefistofeles | DocScrutinizer05: I don't remember that, no... but my memory sucks | 00:59 |
| LjL | berndj, i really don't know. i don't have much of a social life in italy, and so i don't even get the anecdotal reports. the government has repeatedly said that there are indications we are the most "compliant" country in Europe, but i believe that's just based on mobility stuff, which is the easy thing to measure | 00:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway today it should be linked on ndr.de croronavirus update | 01:00 |
| LjL | berndj, our routine involves disinfecting all the packaging with alcohol spray, but i'm also pretty sure most people aren't doing that. i'm sure some are, though. | 01:00 |
| LjL | berndj, but to begin with, we've still only been getting stuff delivered. it's hard, it involves being awake at 5am when new delivery slots open, but i think in terms of risk, it's well worth it | 01:00 |
| mefistofeles | DocScrutinizer05: ok, thanks | 01:00 |
| berndj | LjL, i was kinda sad / annoyed the other day at the shop to see most of the employees with masks/scarves hanging below their chins or other neutering misuses | 01:01 |
| berndj | and the people who do wear masks are constantly tugging at them and pulling them up and down and down to the chin to chat etc. :( | 01:01 |
| mefistofeles | fuck, I should be writing thesis!! xD | 01:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | highest virus load (=danger) 24h _before_ symptom kickin, 5 days after kick in no more infection potential | 01:02 |
| berndj | LjL, i find it kinda disheartening that one can be maximally diligent individually, but it's all for nought of everyone else doesn't do the same | 01:02 |
| mefistofeles | DocScrutinizer05: oh, it was me!!! | 01:03 |
| berndj | DocScrutinizer05, i was interested in that the other day - a sort of infectivity profile with time | 01:03 |
| LjL | berndj, sad, but i am not at all surprised, when i've seen "experts", "doctors" interview on public television while wearing a mask only on their mouth (presumably they use their nose to talk!), or similar | 01:03 |
| LjL | i can't blame the people for doing about as good as those among them who should set the example do | 01:04 |
| berndj | LjL, to play devil's advocate, how much of a danger is the nose though, if the person isn't sneezing? | 01:04 |
| berndj | yeah the relative lack of proper modeling has been appalling | 01:04 |
| LjL | berndj, i cannot answer that objectively, but i can always invoke the cautionary principle. and also, i do believe most types of mask offer some degree of individual protection, so from *your* own point of view, you should wear it on the nose too | 01:05 |
| berndj | sure, i'm not disputing that. it just seems to me like a mask over a person's mouth is still better than no mask - especially for others | 01:06 |
| berndj | especially if they're going to be speaking | 01:07 |
| LjL | berndj, i am on board with the "anything is better than nothing" principle, mostly, but that's when you can't *get* more than you have. if i can't get a surgical mask, i will wear a scarf, but if i *can* get a surgical mask, i would be pretty silly to choose a scarf instead, IMO! and then if i *do* use a "precious" surgical mask, i wouldn't be comfortable feeling it might (or might not, but still, MIGHT) be "wasted" by not wearing it on the nose | 01:08 |
| LjL | berndj, add to that, "i am also somehow a public figure speaking on public television", and wearing a mask improperly is just reckless | 01:08 |
| LjL | even if i have a moment of forgetfulness, heck, the TV crew should stop the interview and redo it from scratch | 01:09 |
| berndj | oh? is being on tv a new career for you? or something you've had going before? | 01:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 22:59 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: Australia coronavirus live: Virgin tells ASX it is going into administration as NSW announces staggered return to school – latest updates → https://is.gd/gKNEub | 01:09 |
| LjL | berndj, no, but my complaint was about people on public TV, and especially purported experts and doctors, wearing masks improperly *on TV* | 01:10 |
| berndj | oh right, you were stating a hypothetical | 01:10 |
| LjL | berndj, so even if in some cases it may be "reasonable" for a random person like me to wear a mask without covering the nose, i can't think of a reason why it might be reasonable when you are, by all intents and purposes, showing every TV watcher in the country how "professionals" wear a mask | 01:10 |
| berndj | LjL, how are italian supermarket staff doing? are they wearing PPE? | 01:14 |
| berndj | at another store i went to the other day i saw several of their employees with face shields (but no masks underneath) | 01:14 |
| berndj | and in general, *very* inconsistent use, like they aren't taking this seriously at all | 01:15 |
| mefistofeles | today I heard that latex gloves are in general a bad idea | 01:15 |
| berndj | oh? what's the problem with them? pores? | 01:16 |
| berndj | what's the point of gloves here anyway, if you cough onto your glove and then pick up a tomato, you're still transferring virus | 01:16 |
| mefistofeles | the bacteria and virus still stick to them, and apparently it's easier for them to then go to your face or other surfaces from the gloves and they give a false sense of security | 01:17 |
| mefistofeles | so, just wash your hands and feel like they are infected all the time is better | 01:17 |
| mefistofeles | berndj: exactly | 01:17 |
| berndj | cuddle your dog first too, so you can *really* feel that your hands are dirty | 01:17 |
| mefistofeles | in hospitals is different because the gloves are used to not infect the patient, mostly | 01:18 |
| ryouma | unless you have a cut perhaps | 01:18 |
| berndj | having a dog really taught me to maintain mental state to reflect whether my hands are food-grade or garden-grade | 01:18 |
| mefistofeles | ryouma: ok, given that, yes | 01:18 |
| mefistofeles | or maybe not even, just put a band | 01:18 |
| berndj | well that ties into my earlier question about virus entry into cells not in the usual tissues | 01:19 |
| LjL | berndj, in some cases they are wearing PPEs, in other cases they have been provided with "shields", but this is mainly from hearsay since i just get things delivered. i've *really* avoided going to supermarkets. i go to the pharmacy sometimes, as i have to, and they have some strict rules there. | 01:19 |
| berndj | cough droplet falls into the cut, then what? | 01:19 |
| berndj | LjL, sorry i keep forgetting you don't go to the shop! | 01:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Gabriel Lung(spelling?) HongKong, now published | 01:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Leung | 01:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | now published in nature medicine | 01:23 |
| ryouma | cannot comprehend the scrollback due to cognitive issues. does this really mean that coughing etc. at 6 or 12 days after symptoms begin cannot infect anybody? i'm guessing that is not what you are saying. --- 16:02 <DocScrutinizer05> highest virus load (=danger) 24h _before_ symptom kickin, 5 days after kick in no more infection potential | 01:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 23:13 UTC: Coronavirus live news: US oil market collapses into negative prices: Italy’s confirmed cases fall for first time; WHO says nothing was hidden from US; Spain proposes €1.5tn EU Covid-19 fund; US blocks pro-WHO statement by G20 → https://is.gd/Ar4F3H | 01:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ryouma: that is what ^^^ this study and Drosten say | 01:24 |
| LjL | ryouma, it may not be true of EVERY patient obviously, but yes, i had also read papers claiming that | 01:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I *guess* (didn't read) it's here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0822-7 | 01:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | rather this: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0869-5 | 01:28 |
| LjL | i am suffering from paper and information overload the past few days, haven't even followed my country's graphs | 01:34 |
| LjL | does anyone have papers, studies, etc that they feel strongly should end up in the resources list? | 01:35 |
| LjL | i have been a bit out of energy to keep up with the things posted enough to determine what's salient | 01:35 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: that from the RKI in Germany I think it should, it's in german though | 01:37 |
| python476 | One thing that surprises me | 01:37 |
| python476 | is how slow the homing on understanding | 01:38 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: also there's a NY Times article on the antibodies tests in Germany that has nice info as well | 01:38 |
| python476 | it's been a few monthes and we still have weird studies | 01:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 23:31 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: Australia coronavirus live: Virgin tells ASX it is going into administration as NSW announces staggered return to school – latest updates → https://is.gd/gKNEub | 01:38 |
| python476 | I expected the world to have circled the important knowledge by now | 01:38 |
| python476 | (weird conclusions sorry) | 01:38 |
| mefistofeles | python476: it's surprising you think it could've been better :P | 01:38 |
| mefistofeles | it's very much known that the medical sciences suffer a lot from reproducibility issues | 01:39 |
| python476 | mefistofeles: I don't expect magic answers in a week | 01:39 |
| mefistofeles | significantly more than others | 01:39 |
| python476 | and fair point | 01:39 |
| LjL | python476, hi, it's partly why i've almost stopped following... last things i looked at were so disorienting (in a scary way) i'm just like okay, enough, if this has to be the same as drug warning labels that say "may cause either life or death", let's just wait and try not to get sick period | 01:39 |
| python476 | LJl: hello there | 01:39 |
| python476 | it's indeed tiresome | 01:39 |
| python476 | mefistofeles: one thing behind my reasoning was that usually medical research has its own pace, but here every country has labs working on this for serious reasons | 01:40 |
| python476 | so I assumed it would help | 01:40 |
| mefistofeles | python476: yes, and have!! | 01:40 |
| python476 | (not saying that they should rush research ala Raoult :D) | 01:40 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, i'd avoid sources in German unless i were to make a section on Germany like i did on Italy (although most of the stuff on Italy is in English too)... anyway i could do that but then i'd definitely need a hand or two | 01:40 |
| python476 | LjL: still alright in your house ? | 01:41 |
| mefistofeles | nowhere in history so many genome sequence for a single thing has been produced in such short time, same for clinical trails and serology studies, and epidemiology | 01:41 |
| LjL | python476, if casual mentions of suicide are alright | 01:41 |
| berndj | am i the only one dismayed by all these "return to school" stories? | 01:41 |
| python476 | who ? | 01:41 |
| python476 | you ? | 01:41 |
| LjL | python476, no, no one | 01:41 |
| mefistofeles | to expect better than that is just unrealistic | 01:42 |
| python476 | ha ~_~ it seems a joke flew past my head | 01:42 |
| LjL | python476, no | 01:42 |
| mefistofeles | now, this does made the reproducibility issues clearer to the public, but I see that as a good thing as well | 01:42 |
| mefistofeles | also, if vaccine gets massively produced in 12 months (as some have claimed) that would be a real record | 01:43 |
| mefistofeles | other coronaviruses vaccine took much longer in general | 01:43 |
| mefistofeles | vaccines* | 01:43 |
| berndj | mefistofeles, i feel like there's a silver lining to this cloud: with all this diagnostic capacity the world's now built up, we'll absolutely slaughter the next virus | 01:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | python476: one woman takes 9 months to produce a babdy, how long does it take to produce a baby when you assign 50 women to the job? ;-) | 01:43 |
| mefistofeles | berndj: heh, you'd be surprised | 01:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | bafy even | 01:44 |
| python476 | DocScrutinizer05: don't go silver bullet on me ! that's not fair | 01:44 |
| mefistofeles | berndj: if it's a coronavirus that produces some acute repiratory illness...sure | 01:44 |
| mefistofeles | but it could be something else, and then... we have to do many things from scratch | 01:44 |
| berndj | mefistofeles, i was thinking of all the PCR testing capacity out there now | 01:44 |
| mefistofeles | berndj: ok, yes | 01:45 |
| mefistofeles | those kits can be adapted to other virus, in general | 01:45 |
| berndj | and likely sequencing too. we'll have a genome in a week of first isolation, tests the day after, and widespread, low-cost screening the same day | 01:45 |
| mefistofeles | berndj: that was already happening before this virus | 01:45 |
| berndj | maybe some more time for primer design? i dunno how they do that | 01:46 |
| mefistofeles | it's not like this virus helped developing faster sequencing techniques or anything like that | 01:46 |
| mefistofeles | if anything the development of those was a bit stopped, because it was not the focus of the industry right now | 01:46 |
| berndj | no, but it did bulk up global testing capacity | 01:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | berndj: once we got molecular 3D printers, yes. Plausible. But only then | 01:46 |
| berndj | every country will hit the road testing at like 50k/day, not derping around with a 100 here, 200 there for the first few weeks while it gets out of control | 01:47 |
| mefistofeles | berndj: again, you'd be surprised | 01:47 |
| mefistofeles | most countries cannot afford that, and there are still many politicians and companies not caring | 01:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what we see are emerging test equipments for RNA, e.g. by Bosch | 01:48 |
| mefistofeles | specially when they realize this virus wasn't as bad as many thought, that's the downside of one probable outcome | 01:48 |
| berndj | mefistofeles, i'm in south africa, and we'll apparently be up to 36k/day by the end of the month | 01:48 |
| mefistofeles | berndj: nice to hear that | 01:48 |
| berndj | we're currently only on 5k/day though, but apparently new machines are arriving soon | 01:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | real desktop sized 30min to result tests machines | 01:49 |
| mefistofeles | DocScrutinizer05: that would be nice | 01:52 |
| mefistofeles | but I don't see that happening reliably in the next decade tbh | 01:52 |
| mefistofeles | if you think about it, qPCR tests are somewhat old, and we haven't really got that much more advanced | 01:53 |
| python476 | maybe money (what's left) will flow into serious medical tech | 01:54 |
| python476 | rather than in phones | 01:54 |
| python476 | which peaked anyway | 01:54 |
| mefistofeles | that would be a really nice outcome from this | 01:55 |
| mefistofeles | watching less open and more local economies focusing more in social health care than in profiting from marketing and advertisement... one can only dream :P | 01:56 |
| python476 | yeah, it's gonna be a weird 'experiment' | 01:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | mefistofeles: Bosch announced sth, sounded like they already got prototypes | 02:13 |
| mefistofeles | DocScrutinizer05: oooh, that's nice | 02:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah that Bosch, weird enough but they are much in MEMS and sensors lately | 02:14 |
| Butterfly^ | https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/18/health/cdc-coronavirus-lab-contamination-testing.html Title: C.D.C. Labs Were Contaminated, Delaying Coronavirus Testing, Officials Say - The New York Times | 02:14 |
| LjL | python476, money isn't the problem, can always print more of it | 02:15 |
| LjL | python476, and as to phone, apparently about 2 billion people will have to upgrade theirs, if they want BLE allowing them to run Google's contact tracing stuff! \o/ | 02:15 |
| mefistofeles | Butterfly^: I think that was already known, wasn't it? oh...maybe just that they had issues with the reagents, probably not the actual cause... ok | 02:15 |
| LjL | https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/04/2-billion-phones-cannot-use-google-and-apple-contract-tracing-tech/ | 02:15 |
| ircnick | lucky them | 02:16 |
| mefistofeles | I don't really get why would anyone run that bs app from Google and Apple, when there are better ones | 02:16 |
| mefistofeles | (of course, marketing and monopoly) | 02:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | mefistofeles: https://www.bosch.com/stories/vivalytic-rapid-test-for-covid-19/ | 02:17 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, i believe there's strongarming between those companies and the EU governments and others around APIs. Google and Apple can do things with Bluetooth chips that, as of now, apps probably can't | 02:17 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, this is based on nothing specific, but not just a hunch either. things i've read in articles, that were just not very specific. so i don't know what it is that a regular app can't access, but there's probably something. | 02:18 |
| mefistofeles | DocScrutinizer05: interesting, any info on accuracy? | 02:19 |
| danielp3344 | WOOO My business is making money! | 02:19 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: yeah, I don't think they can do more than what they were already doing with them, tbh | 02:20 |
| mefistofeles | which makes it even more suspicious | 02:20 |
| mefistofeles | specially compared with the private-aware and open alternatives that have already been tested in other countries | 02:21 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, i read something about apps on Apple phones being very restricted if they aren't in the foreground... which i don't know any specifics about, but it matches what little i know about apps on iOS in general, aside from BLE | 02:21 |
| LjL | on Android, not sure what issues would arise, maybe no huge ones in particular | 02:22 |
| LjL | but anyway, the app that "my government" is having developed doesn't seem so much enticing than what Google has in mind, but it's not available yet so we'll see | 02:22 |
| mefistofeles | yeah, the best one I've seen is that from BlueTrace | 02:23 |
| LjL | i would be interested in a distributed, grassroot app making use of no centralized servers that just ends up on F-Droid... but i doubt that will happen | 02:23 |
| mefistofeles | from the Singapore government | 02:23 |
| danielp3344 | LjL: I'm tempted, but android gives me a headache | 02:23 |
| LjL | same, took a class on Android and iOS development once, ran away | 02:24 |
| mefistofeles | yeah, that's awful haha | 02:24 |
| mefistofeles | I mean, I know nothing, but what I've seen seems awful | 02:24 |
| LjL | looks like half-working bots are much more in my ballpark | 02:24 |
| danielp3344 | Not that I own any android devices lol | 02:24 |
| EricGrahamMacEac | @daniel | 02:24 |
| LjL | speaking of which, it still isn't sending out updates and Biep[m] will hate me | 02:24 |
| EricGrahamMacEac | @lJl | 02:24 |
| danielp3344 | And the bluetooth on my phone is rather screwy at best | 02:25 |
| LjL | EricGrahamMacEac, just drop the @ and use Tab to complete nicknames, that will work better | 02:25 |
| danielp3344 | Eric Graham MacEachern: yes? | 02:25 |
| EricGrahamMacEac | Daniel Peterson: LjL Android dev is easy. Android studio makes it so much easier now. I even used Xcode and it was fine. | 02:25 |
| danielp3344 | no. | 02:25 |
| danielp3344 | * NO. | 02:25 |
| LjL | okay, then maybe it is easy, and i am just not good at things. either way, i found it difficult and confusing. | 02:26 |
| danielp3344 | And preferably GTK | 02:26 |
| EricGrahamMacEac | This product never shipped. Made it as an unpaid intern. https://github.com/EricGrahamMacEachern/anesthesiaconsiderations-Android | 02:26 |
| EricGrahamMacEac | Xamarin was really nice, but I found it difficult for the specific use case I needed. I may have had an easier time using separate projects using Swift and Java. | 02:27 |
| EricGrahamMacEac | The best platform you can use for mobile development is a MacBook. | 02:28 |
| danielp3344 | Eric Graham MacEachern: please stop | 02:28 |
| EricGrahamMacEac | Daniel Peterson: Stop what? The nice thing about macs is that all the android dev tools are native, and you can also do native iOS builds. | 02:29 |
| EricGrahamMacEac | If you don't want a mac, you can rent a virtual mac in the cloud for deployment. | 02:29 |
| danielp3344 | Eric Graham MacEachern: ios and macos are proprietary\ | 02:29 |
| EricGrahamMacEac | Daniel Peterson: They are both. | 02:30 |
| danielp3344 | android is like %65 proprietary | 02:30 |
| ircnick | https://twitter.com/vicdibitetto | 02:31 |
| EricGrahamMacEac | Daniel Peterson: I don't think so. https://github.com/android | 02:31 |
| danielp3344 | Eric Graham MacEachern: Do you have an android phone? | 02:31 |
| EricGrahamMacEac | Daniel Peterson: Yes. | 02:32 |
| danielp3344 | which one? if you don't mind me asking | 02:32 |
| EricGrahamMacEac | I use Android and Ubuntu. I'd rather not say the exact model. | 02:32 |
| danielp3344 | well anyway, for most android devices all the drivers (except sometimes touchscreen, leds and stuff), the default apps and the bootloader and recovery are all nonfree | 02:33 |
| danielp3344 | making the phone basically unusable without the nonfree bits | 02:33 |
| EricGrahamMacEac | Daniel Peterson: Who cares? It's not like American copyrights hold up outside of American courts anyway. | 02:34 |
| LjL | ... what? | 02:34 |
| danielp3344 | Eric Graham MacEachern: well, it's mystery software. Who knows what it might be doing. And there's no way to change it or fix problems | 02:34 |
| LjL | but short answer: yes, of course they do | 02:34 |
| danielp3344 | Android users are frequently completely out of luck if there is a sudden exploit if their phone isn't receiving vendor updates | 02:35 |
| LjL | but danielp3344, i don't think it's fair to just say "stop" to someone because they suggest proprietary software. i know this is freenode, but still, if anything, it's offtopic for the channel, but not exactly a felony | 02:35 |
| danielp3344 | * Android users are frequently completely out of luck if there is a sudden exploit and their phone isn't receiving vendor updates | 02:35 |
| danielp3344 | hrrmpff | 02:36 |
| danielp3344 | LjL: certainly suggesting use of ios and macos is at least as bad as suggesting COVID19 doesn't exist right? :P\ | 02:36 |
| LjL | LjL wants to say yes... but @LjL needs to say no :P | 02:36 |
| LjL | (where @ stands for operator on IRC clients likely no one uses anymore, so i probably should specify) | 02:37 |
| EricGrahamMacEac | LjL: Not really. https://www.stopfakes.gov/article?id=Is-My-Copyright-Good-in-Other-Countries | 02:37 |
| danielp3344 | Eric Graham MacEachern: I wasn't complaining about copyright, just a lack of basic stuff like source code | 02:38 |
| danielp3344 | and maybe some docs wouldn't hurt | 02:38 |
| EricGrahamMacEac | On Twitter, they still use @. | 02:38 |
| LjL | %wik Berne Convention | 02:38 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, no such article found on the French Wikipedia | 02:39 |
| LjL | groan | 02:39 |
| LjL | %wik :en Berne Convention | 02:39 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, from English Wikipedia: The Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, usually known as the Berne Convention, is an international agreement governing copyright, which was first accepted in Berne, Switzerland, in 1886. [... want %more?] → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention | 02:39 |
| LjL | EricGrahamMacEac, the .gov's point is valid... for countries like, uhm, Iran for instance | 02:39 |
| LjL | as for the vast majority of countries on this planet, copyright *is* automatically extended | 02:39 |
| danielp3344 | %cases maryland | 02:40 |
| Brainstorm | danielp3344: In Maryland, US, there are 13684 cases (0.2% of the population) and 582 deaths (4.3% of cases) as of 5 minutes ago. 71397 tests were performed (19.2% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Maryland for time series data. | 02:40 |
| EricGrahamMacEac | LjL: Not true. https://yro.slashdot.org/story/07/11/11/215251/rcmp-wont-go-after-personal-filesharers | 02:40 |
| danielp3344 | Eric Graham MacEachern: you've escaped the original point :P | 02:41 |
| LjL | whateer, EricGrahamMacEac. you can find any small exception, but it's utterly ridiculous to state as a general notion that "American copyrights" would not hold up "outside of American courts". they just do. | 02:41 |
| LjL | and yeah it really has nothing to do with the software freedom being discussed | 02:41 |
| LjL | it's a moot point, and a moot argument | 02:42 |
| EricGrahamMacEac | Daniel Peterson: I don't use closed source software made by anonymous people, but if a company installs malicious software that is closed source, they usually go out of business fairly quickly. | 02:42 |
| danielp3344 | Eric Graham MacEachern: that is completely untrue | 02:42 |
| LjL | quite | 02:42 |
| EricGrahamMacEac | LjL: I just showed you that they don't. | 02:42 |
| LjL | but also i'm going to call offtopic here | 02:42 |
| danielp3344 | mefistofeles: microsoft, apple, google, samsung, LG, uhhh | 02:42 |
| LjL | this is a huge quagmire we're getting into that has nothing to do with COVID-19 | 02:42 |
| danielp3344 | err, Eric Graham MacEachern * sorry | 02:42 |
| EricGrahamMacEac | Wait aa minute, is this the wrong channel? | 02:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 00:33 UTC: Coronavirus US live: Trump to host Cuomo at White House after conflict over supplies: Cuomo says New York case numbers suggest ‘descent’ Anti-lockdown protesters converge on Pennsylvania capitol Trump plays misleading clips of ‘support’ from Cuomo at briefing Live global updates → https://is.gd/x7FFn7 | 02:43 |
| danielp3344 | Eric Graham MacEachern: actually, are there any companies selling nonfree software that *isn't* malicious in some way? | 02:43 |
| LjL | and i can see an obvious... rift... divide... huge crack... between two views here, which is better discussed in like a number of freenode channels but not really this one | 02:43 |
| danielp3344 | LjL: we're both on matrix :P | 02:43 |
| LjL | EricGrahamMacEac, i'm usually fine with some offtopic chat connected to the COVID-19 topic but i can easily see how this conversation will need to become an encompassing debate on free software | 02:43 |
| danielp3344 | \o/ | 02:43 |
| LjL | danielp3344, but i am not and i run the channel :P | 02:44 |
| LjL | but i'm sure there are also rooms on Matrix where this can be discussed | 02:44 |
| EricGrahamMacEac | Sorry I meant to post in the GNU-Linux-Lovers room. | 02:44 |
| danielp3344 | My exposure to nonfree individuals has been limited during quarantine :P | 02:44 |
| LjL | it's just not realistic to have the full debate on this here | 02:44 |
| danielp3344 | Eric Graham MacEachern: PM me or something | 02:44 |
| danielp3344 | I'll be right back | 02:44 |
| LjL | and also do ask the question, with your verbatim line, on r/copyright | 02:44 |
| EricGrahamMacEac | * Wait a minute, is this the wrong channel? | 02:44 |
| LjL | i hope to mother earth that the editing feature will be changed in Matrix and/or the IRC bridge. | 02:46 |
| danielp3344 | Did I do something? | 02:46 |
| danielp3344 | or did someone edit a message from forever ago | 02:47 |
| danielp3344 | ah lol | 02:47 |
| bin_baschiavelli | LjL: submit a bug repot | 02:47 |
| bin_baschiavelli | report* | 02:47 |
| LjL | danielp3344, not you, but anyway, it's not their fault, it's a feature that the platform offers | 02:47 |
| LjL | bin_baschiavelli, i won't, because one has been submitted. i have commented on it, and linked it here multiple times, though | 02:47 |
| danielp3344 | maybe it should discard edits on messages more than 10 messages ago | 02:48 |
| LjL | but i can do it one more time https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/issues/1026 | 02:48 |
| danielp3344 | or maybe there should be a flag for rooms that disables edits | 02:48 |
| bin_baschiavelli | ah | 02:48 |
| bin_baschiavelli | well good then | 02:48 |
| LjL | danielp3344, it really should do more than that. see the example i gave in the above link. also, i am personally opposed to an editing feature on a medium like chat, and i think it should be toggleable on a per-room basis, but based on how it's implemented (just re-sending the same message, basically), i don't think that would be possible at this point. | 02:49 |
| mefistofeles | for IRC that doesn't work, for other platforms it may... if it clearly states it was edited and the date/hour | 02:53 |
| ryouma | i am sort of tired of every problem looking like a thing taht a cell phone should hammer | 02:53 |
| mefistofeles | I mean, it's a good thing you can edit msgs, imho, unless you are trying to use chat logs as some sort of rigid evidence for anything (which no one should, in any case) | 02:54 |
| mefistofeles | ryouma: I don't really have any single thing that a mobile/cell phone does better than any other device, other than it does many things in a single device, of course | 02:54 |
| LjL | and it's a bad thing if one wants to make it look like a good response to something is actually a bad response to something, and here is no edit history | 02:55 |
| LjL | i think Matrix was fine with message deletion alone | 02:55 |
| LjL | if a message is so botched you have to clarify, delete it and repost | 02:55 |
| LjL | anyhow, i feel i really should be able to determine this as a room admin, because we can have different opinions on things, but i just can't | 02:55 |
| ryouma | mefistofeles: i should point out that my comment was directed at nobody in particular and no application in particular. i just keep hearing that, or running across ted talks that, cell phones will revolutionize this or that. when it is really an opportunist who wants to grab your privacy or a share of funding or do a ted talk or whatever. | 02:56 |
| ryouma | it might well be great for covid; idk | 02:56 |
| mefistofeles | yeah, that'sprobably the single thing that excels more | 02:57 |
| mefistofeles | contact and location tracing | 02:57 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 00:49 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: Australia coronavirus live: Virgin tells ASX it is going into administration as NSW announces staggered return to school – latest updates → https://is.gd/gKNEub | 02:57 |
| mefistofeles | which you can argue is one of the main reasons why they are so popular, for some :P | 02:57 |
| mefistofeles | so that the big brother can trace you and what you do | 02:58 |
| mefistofeles | track* | 02:58 |
| Toadisattva | spoiler alert; big brother has been tracing you all along | 03:05 |
| Toadisattva | in order to function that fancy location tracking camera and microphone all-in-ones in your pocket have to use those handy dandy celluar towers all over the place which triangulate your location for your carrier, for google, apple, microsoft, insert interested data collector here | 03:08 |
| danielp3344 | Toadisattva: this is why my phone doesn't use the cell network | 03:08 |
| Toadisattva | what network does it use? | 03:09 |
| danielp3344 | ifi | 03:10 |
| danielp3344 | wifi* | 03:10 |
| LjL | i think i'll coin "reductio ad trackium" as a logical fallacy but i need to work on the specifics of it | 03:10 |
| Toadisattva | ah your router is easily location tracked too don't you worry you get to be part of the party too :P | 03:11 |
| danielp3344 | Toadisattva: what router? | 03:11 |
| PlanckWalk | Camera location doesn't need cell towers | 03:18 |
| PlanckWalk | GPS doesn't use them, and doesn't broadcast anything. | 03:20 |
| euod[m] | most phones can't really do GPS though. | 03:20 |
| euod[m] | they use assisted GPS, which requires internet access. | 03:20 |
| PlanckWalk | I haven't seen one yet that needed internet for GPS. Not saying it doesn't exist, but it's certainly not universal. | 03:21 |
| PlanckWalk | (Or even near it) | 03:21 |
| euod[m] | it's true, believe it or not. | 03:21 |
| euod[m] | normal GPS takes minutes to sync the data needed at tens bytes a second. | 03:22 |
| euod[m] | aGPS is what phones use, which downloads the data over the internet instead, and uses wifi skyhooks to find the location faster. | 03:22 |
| PlanckWalk | Neither of my phones did, nor my wife's. | 03:22 |
| euod[m] | that's literally how the underlying tech works. | 03:23 |
| LjL | euod[m], no, that is NOT true. all the phones i've ever had, or been aware of, do indeed have A-GPS, but are perfectly capable of falling back to standard GPS (and nowadays often also standard GLONASS, BeiDou, and even Galileo when it works), even though it does indeed take several minutes to get a fix then. | 03:23 |
| LjL | it is literally very much not | 03:23 |
| PlanckWalk | They were probably capable of doing that, but GPS function worked fine without internet or wifi. | 03:24 |
| LjL | A-GPS on phones is mainly based on an almanac and ephemeris | 03:24 |
| LjL | which have little to do with wifi skyhooks | 03:24 |
| euod[m] | LjL: for the purpose of GPS tagging a photo, you're not waiting minutes for the entire set to be downloaded. | 03:24 |
| LjL | euod[m], that's a practical consideration | 03:25 |
| LjL | i have no idea how it changes the technology | 03:25 |
| LjL | you have made claims that are just incorrect, and made them with some vehemence | 03:25 |
| LjL | they are wrong. if i want my picture to take several minutes to get tagged, i'll seem weird, but i can, and i will | 03:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 01:09 UTC: Coronavirus live updates: China reports 11 new cases and no deaths: China reported 11 new confirmed cases of the coronavirus as of April 20. There were no deaths for the sixth straight day, according to the country's National Health Commission. → https://is.gd/sREN0l | 03:25 |
| PlanckWalk | You don't wait minutes per picture | 03:27 |
| tinwhiskers | If you haven't used GPS for a while (weeks) it takes a few minutes to get a lock, otherwise it's usually pretty quick. If you recently used it within a few hours it only tends to take seconds to get a fix. | 03:27 |
| PlanckWalk | You wait minutes for the GPS dataset + lock, then it's fairly continuously available. | 03:27 |
| tinwhiskers | and yeah, you don't need wifi or cellular to get a fix. | 03:27 |
| euod[m] | typically that's a "warm start" in the terminology. | 03:27 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah | 03:28 |
| tinwhiskers | and typically the situation is a warm start | 03:28 |
| euod[m] | at least iOS typically doesn't use raw GPS for much, if anything. | 03:29 |
| LjL | typically that's "what happens to most people who take pictures" in the terminology | 03:29 |
| tinwhiskers | quite possibly. Where I am there is only GPS and it doesn't take minutes, even if it's been switched of for several hours. | 03:29 |
| LjL | fwiw, someone here https://np.reddit.com/r/amazfit/comments/8h7r1a/updating_agps_message_on_watch/dyjnxa9/ has spent quite some time writing about the terminology, and how A-GPS works on phones | 03:29 |
| tinwhiskers | oh, actually there probably is a little A-GPS available (a couple of cell towers) but I have AGPS disabled | 03:30 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, that wasn't directed to you, although you do have an advantage of sort in that i suspect you're unlikely to have the signal blocked by many buildings | 03:30 |
| tinwhiskers | heh. true | 03:30 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, you don't have A-GPS disabled, unless you have GPS disabled and/or you have a very unusual phone | 03:30 |
| tinwhiskers | erm. my phone only uses GPS | 03:31 |
| LjL | okay | 03:31 |
| tinwhiskers | let me check that :-/ | 03:31 |
| Toadisattva | are phones still using cellular trianglulation even if you don't have a carrier? | 03:32 |
| LjL | well, most current phones, at least i can speak of Android, have two things that can be toggled, although the names vary by version, so i'll use conventional names | 03:32 |
| Toadisattva | there are fewer and fewer place where you are not in range of a tower | 03:32 |
| LjL | 1) (A-)GPS, without a specific toggle for the A, except, well... putting the phone in airplane mode, possibly | 03:32 |
| euod[m] | Toadisattva: they don't really use triangulation. | 03:32 |
| LjL | 2) "network location", which is an almost wholly software-based service in Android (and iOS has something similar too of course), which determines a *rough* position for yourself based on things like the currently connected tower, or the visible wifi access points, or bluetooth devices | 03:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 01:24 UTC: Coronavirus live news: Trump downplays oil crash as 'short term': US oil market collapses into negative prices; global cases near 2.5 million; Tokyo Olympics might not happen in 2021. Follow the latest updates → https://is.gd/iFGkq3 | 03:33 |
| tinwhiskers | Yes my android phone has an option "GPS Only". The "High accuracy" option says it uses wifi and mobile as well. | 03:33 |
| LjL | "network location" may give you a rough location immediately, but it is actually completely unrelated to the A in A-GPS | 03:33 |
| Toadisattva | that network location is the triangulation isn't it? | 03:33 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, yes, that's network location ("high accuracy"). "GPS only" is still most likely A-GPS, insofar as any A is available in any form that your phone can get | 03:34 |
| euod[m] | LjL: it helps with warm starts presumably, you need to know your location for that. | 03:34 |
| LjL | Toadisattva, no, it's not really based on triangulation | 03:34 |
| Toadisattva | I must be misunderstanding the definition of triangulation | 03:34 |
| tinwhiskers | ok. I was pretty sure "GPS Only" was GPS only. :-/ | 03:34 |
| LjL | Toadisattva, the network can triangulate you quite accurately if they want, but your phone only has rougher info, so mostly Android looks at the nearest tower, or better if it can get them, at wifi access points. it doesn't ask the towers to triangulate you. | 03:35 |
| euod[m] | triangulation would be measuring the distance between towers based on the signal and estimating your location. you're only connected to one typically. | 03:35 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, no, and it may "leak" your location to third-parties (or just Google), admittedly, which is somewhat unfortunate. if you care and want to understand the whole setup a bit more, i'm sure there are better descriptions, but i can refer you to the reddit comment i posted | 03:35 |
| Toadisattva | not the towers + the routers + other devices? | 03:36 |
| tinwhiskers | nah, it's ok. Worth knowing it's not anyway | 03:36 |
| euod[m] | Toadisattva: there's basically a database "skyhooks" which maps the location of cell towers and visible wifi networks which google collects with streetview cars. if you can see a wifi point that the database knows about, they can make a guess at the location. | 03:37 |
| LjL | euod[m], actually your phone, in most modes, is tracking several towers, with several signal ratings for each tower ("neighbors" they are sometimes called). however, triangulating based on signal strength is a very rough thing that doesn't work too well unless you have signal map (which you only do if you are the cell operator, usually). the cell operator, on the other hand, can triangulate you using methods that are much more accurate than signal, as they | 03:37 |
| LjL | can use time-of-flight for instance. | 03:37 |
| euod[m] | LjL: my impression was that the backup cells were just known about, but you're not announcing yourself to them, but maybe that's wrong. | 03:38 |
| LjL | euod[m], to my knowledge, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyhook_Wireless (not Skyhook*s* by the way) is not affiliated with Google | 03:38 |
| LjL | euod[m], well you have signal strength from them, so in theory you can use them to triangulate yourself. it's just quite inaccurate and i don't believe the OS bothers. | 03:39 |
| euod[m] | LjL: so skyhook's database was used by people in early android stuff, then skyhook sued google for patent infringement and won $61M, for their very similar "google location services". right. | 03:41 |
| Toadisattva | so my question, is if you say don't pay your phone bill, don't have your cellular data connected, is the radio still connecting to nearby towers? | 03:41 |
| LjL | Toadisattva, yes | 03:42 |
| Toadisattva | I figured as much | 03:42 |
| LjL | that is what allows you to place emergency calls | 03:42 |
| Toadisattva | aha okay | 03:42 |
| euod[m] | you can always make 911 calls, even without a SIM card. | 03:42 |
| euod[m] | there's some law about that. | 03:42 |
| Toadisattva | right | 03:42 |
| LjL | Toadisattva, in fact it will even connect to *more* towers, as generally all operators are bound to service you as an "emergency-only" phone | 03:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 01:39 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: Australia coronavirus updates live: Virgin tells ASX it is going into administration as NSW announces staggered return to school – latest news → https://is.gd/gKNEub | 03:47 |
| Toadisattva | seriously oz? | 03:48 |
| Toadisattva | already opening schools | 03:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 01:47 UTC: Coronavirus live updates: China reports 11 new cases and no deaths: China reported 11 new confirmed cases of the coronavirus as of April 20. There were no deaths for the sixth straight day, according to the country's National Health Commission. → https://is.gd/sREN0l | 03:54 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 01:54 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: Australia coronavirus updates live: Virgin tells ASX it is going into administration as NSW announces staggered return to school – latest news → https://is.gd/gKNEub | 04:01 |
| Jigsy | %cases world | 04:02 |
| Brainstorm | Jigsy: In all areas, worldwide, there are 2.5 million cases (0.0% of the population) and 170533 deaths (6.9% of cases) as of 12 minutes ago. 21.6 million tests were performed (11.5% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=worldwide for time series data. | 04:03 |
| LjL | https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/20/838943211/73-of-inmates-at-an-ohio-prison-test-positive-for-coronavirus just in cases anyone had doubts on the prevalence left unchecked... now maybe they can also run thorough serology on them as well as all sorts of other statistics? because in the article they are, for a change, "blaming" it on the asymptomatic, but then i don't know how many are *symptomatic*, and how many are dying | 04:04 |
| LjL | nothing that a search on Marion County shouldn't roughly ascertain though | 04:05 |
| LjL | just one death... sure | 04:05 |
| tinwhiskers | wow. 73% and no deaths | 04:06 |
| tinwhiskers | oh.. one? | 04:06 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, or... "Marion Public Health is temporarily suspending our daily case breakdown updates while we work on incoming cases, contact tracing, data collection, and more. For the updated numbers for our county, please visit the Coronavirus Dashboard from the Ohio Department of Health and select Marion County." | 04:07 |
| LjL | which reads to me as "we don't know and/or won't tell for now" | 04:07 |
| tinwhiskers | heh | 04:07 |
| tinwhiskers | that's getting very close to predicted herd immunity numbers, or even over that for the earlier lower estimates (and assuming immunity persists in the majority of cases) | 04:08 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, also https://coronavirus.ohio.gov/static/DRCCOVID-19Information.pdf | 04:09 |
| LjL | fwiw | 04:09 |
| tinwhiskers | but more recent estimates given ever-increasing R0 values put herd immunity at more like 80% now | 04:09 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, the dynamics may be different than those outside of prisons though. like, somewhere inbetween Milan and Naples, but more on the Naples side *cough* | 04:09 |
| tinwhiskers | true | 04:09 |
| tinwhiskers | nevertheless, 73% is very high! | 04:10 |
| stinkpot | is herd immunity influenced by the re-infection rate? | 04:10 |
| tinwhiskers | stinkpot: yeah, they are inversely related | 04:10 |
| tinwhiskers | effectively different sides of the same coin in terms of the equations used to calculate them | 04:11 |
| stinkpot | i suspect the reinfection rate is higher than a lot of other classical diseases | 04:11 |
| Albright | Trump has apparently just announced an executive order to close the borders | 04:11 |
| tinwhiskers | stinkpot: it looks like that may be true | 04:11 |
| tinwhiskers | stinkpot: oh, sorry. I misread your comment. infection rate and herd immunity are inversely related. | 04:13 |
| ryouma | presumably closed borders are only to people not goods? | 04:13 |
| tinwhiskers | reinfection will play a part though in the R(eff) value | 04:13 |
| Albright | http://archive.is/WO7pt | 04:14 |
| tinwhiskers | I hear the ferry puttering away on its way to the mainland. We might get chicken and cheese again! yay | 04:14 |
| stinkpot | do you get whole live chickens delivered? | 04:14 |
| stinkpot | what kind of ferry putters? it sounds like a 30 ft ponga | 04:15 |
| tinwhiskers | frozen chicken gets delivered to the mainland | 04:15 |
| stinkpot | where does the chicken come from? country of export? | 04:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 02:12 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: Australia coronavirus updates live: Frydenberg rules out bailout for Virgin Australia's 'foreign shareholders' – latest news → https://is.gd/gKNEub | 04:16 |
| tinwhiskers | I've heard various things. they are not like the chicken we get back in NZ. Some people say it's US chicken but I don't really know. | 04:16 |
| tinwhiskers | what I do know is they don't stay frozen. in fact some of the shops turn their freezers off at night to save power :-/ | 04:17 |
| tinwhiskers | you have to cook it well | 04:18 |
| Albright | ryouma: I don't think goods coming into the country counts as "immigration." | 04:18 |
| stinkpot | tinwhiskers: frozen chicken takes forever to defrost for some reason so don't worry | 04:19 |
| stinkpot | it literally takes two days to defrost | 04:19 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah, I've seen the boxes stacked out on the street for hours and sometimes when you get it it's already thawed. | 04:19 |
| tinwhiskers | it's mostly kinda-frozen. Doesn't worry me too much. | 04:20 |
| stinkpot | lol yeah the heat over there makes a big difference | 04:20 |
| Albright | I have one of those metal quick-thawing plates that works really well. | 04:20 |
| stinkpot | doesn't do anything when the chicken is not touching the plastic wrap | 04:21 |
| Albright | Well, for flat things, anyway, like chicken breasts or thighs. | 04:21 |
| stinkpot | then you have a non-heat-conductive layer of air | 04:21 |
| stinkpot | meh you don't know how to defrost. it's an art | 04:21 |
| tinwhiskers | you can tell the stuff that has thawed an re-frozen because its a solid block of pink bloody chicken popsicle instead of vaguely chunks | 04:21 |
| stinkpot | haha | 04:25 |
| stinkpot | is everyone on solar power on that island? | 04:25 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah | 04:26 |
| stinkpot | damn that could be tough if the system goes down | 04:26 |
| stinkpot | and without ability to freeze stuff | 04:27 |
| tinwhiskers | the other people on the island only have tiny little setups that run a couple of LEDs and charge their cellphones. I have a 2kw system that runs fans all day and night, freezer, laptops, etc. | 04:27 |
| stinkpot | damn is that all you need? | 04:27 |
| stinkpot | i thought you'd need more | 04:27 |
| tinwhiskers | I can run some powertools off my setup but I have a generator for the larger ones. | 04:27 |
| stinkpot | i guess if you have batteries it has a high peak power | 04:27 |
| tinwhiskers | I maybe use the generator once every couple of months for 30 minutes | 04:27 |
| tinwhiskers | I used it a lot when I was building the house though. | 04:28 |
| tinwhiskers | most of the time I have 1kw of panels switched off and only turn them on on cloudy days because combined they go slightly over the maximum rated input of my charge controller | 04:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus* at 02:18 UTC: Coronavirus: Arrest warrant issued for Pastor Tony spell for allegedly backing Church bus towards coronavirus protester → https://is.gd/OHTKJb | 04:30 |
| stinkpot | what's the model of your charge controller? | 04:31 |
| stinkpot | do you run everything off DC? | 04:32 |
| stinkpot | or do you have an inverter | 04:32 |
| tinwhiskers | it's a bit of a hokey, cheap chinese setup but it's so cheap I carry spares of everything. I'm of the opinion that cheap and replaceable is better than fancy expensive stuff. A warranty does you no good if it takes 8 months to get a replacement part. | 04:32 |
| tinwhiskers | I run everything off 230v. My solar panels our out in a utility shed about 50m from house and I run the house with an extension cord. The house actually plugs in using a standard power socket so is actually an appliance :-) | 04:33 |
| stinkpot | lol | 04:33 |
| tinwhiskers | the freezer and fans on the inverter can whir away and I don't hear them. I just have a bit of noise from the ceiling fan in the house. | 04:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 02:26 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: Australia coronavirus updates live: Frydenberg rules out bailout for Virgin Australia's 'foreign shareholders' – latest news → https://is.gd/gKNEub | 04:37 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +1048 cases (now 793352) since 48 minutes ago — Mexico City, Mexico: +511 cases (now 2591) since 48 minutes ago — Bavaria, Germany: +461 cases (now 38310) since 48 minutes ago | 04:38 |
| stinkpot | i need to get a setup like that | 04:39 |
| stinkpot | you just mounted all your panels on the shed? | 04:39 |
| tinwhiskers | yep. that's also where my rain collection is. the mosquitoes love to hang around the water tanks so keeping them away from the house helps in that regard. | 04:40 |
| tinwhiskers | The mosquitoes are madness out at the shed | 04:41 |
| stinkpot | when you're done living there do you think you'll be able to sell your house and shed and all that easily? | 04:42 |
| tinwhiskers | no, I'm giving it to the land owner after 10 years | 04:43 |
| tinwhiskers | that's how I swung the deal | 04:43 |
| tinwhiskers | I only pay US$800 per year to lease this 8 acre block | 04:44 |
| stinkpot | interesting arrangement | 04:45 |
| tinwhiskers | the surrounding blocks are all vacant except for one block on the far said of the island so I effectively have half the island. We don't really see the neighbours except when we go into town so it's actually more like having a private island. | 04:45 |
| stinkpot | i'm surprised so many plots are vacant | 04:46 |
| stinkpot | that is strange to me | 04:46 |
| tinwhiskers | locals don't really like to live on the islands. They like community and church more than I. | 04:46 |
| tinwhiskers | the people leasing the other block are Spanish | 04:46 |
| stinkpot | wow bizarre | 04:47 |
| tinwhiskers | doing land deals in tonga is a complicated affair and often goes bad. Probably more people lose their land than keep it. There are just no rules around inheritance. | 04:47 |
| tinwhiskers | holding the house as collateral makes my deal much safer and I've made it well known around the place that I'll burn the house if they try to kick me off. | 04:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test)* at 02:47 UTC: nCoV: Singapore confirms record jump of 1,426 COVID-19 cases → https://is.gd/Eiu32u | 04:51 |
| tinwhiskers | there's literally hundreds of unoccupied islands but most of the owners think will get a million dollars for a 99 year lease but only a madman would ever do that given the corrupt history of land deals here so they just sit vacant. If you can find the right person you can swing a good deal. There's still a lot of slices of paradise here for those willing to take the plunge. | 04:53 |
| jacklsw | %cases malaysia | 04:59 |
| Brainstorm | jacklsw: In all areas, Malaysia, there are 5425 cases (0.0% of the population) and 89 deaths (1.6% of cases) as of 9 minutes ago. 108216 tests were performed (5.0% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.5% (assuming deaths/cases with ⅔ undetected), and less than 2.6% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Malaysia for time series data. | 04:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 02:47 UTC: Coronavirus live news: Trump says he will suspend all immigration to US amid pandemic: President to sign temporary executive order ‘in light of attack from Invisible Enemy’; US oil market collapses into negative prices; global cases near 2.5 million. Follow the latest updates → https://is.gd/iFGkq3 | 05:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 03:15 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: Australia coronavirus updates live: Frydenberg rules out bailout for Virgin Australia's 'foreign shareholders' – latest news → https://is.gd/gKNEub | 05:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 03:27 UTC: Coronavirus live news: Trump says he will suspend all immigration to US amid pandemic: President to sign temporary executive order ‘in light of attack from Invisible Enemy’; US oil market collapses into negative prices; global cases near 2.5 million. Follow the latest updates → https://is.gd/iFGkq3 | 05:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 03:35 UTC: Coronavirus live updates: China reports 11 new cases and no deaths: China reported 11 new confirmed cases of the coronavirus as of April 20. There were no deaths for the sixth straight day, according to the country's National Health Commission. → https://is.gd/sREN0l | 05:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 03:44 UTC: Australia coronavirus updates live: restrictions on some elective surgery lifted – latest news: As Australia’s infection rate falls, state and federal leaders have lifted some Covid-19 restrictions on elective surgery at meeting on Tuesday. Follow all the latest news, live → https://is.gd/gKNEub | 05:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 04:00 UTC: Coronavirus live updates: China reports 11 new cases and no deaths; Hong Kong will extend social restrictions: China reported 11 new confirmed cases of the coronavirus as of April 20. There were no deaths for the sixth straight day, according to the country's National Health Commission. → https://is.gd/sREN0l | 06:03 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +1090 cases (now 794442) since an hour ago — Maharashtra, India: +463 cases (now 4666) since 2 hours ago — Trentino, Italy: +159 cases (now 3590) since 2 hours ago | 06:09 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: 73% Of Inmates At An Ohio Prison Test Positive For Coronavirus (10185 votes) | https://redd.it/g51s9g | 06:10 |
| PlanckWalk | With the sensitivity of typical tests, they could all have it. | 06:12 |
| ynjhof[m] | Yes, depending on the test taken that is within margin for 100%. Apparently the test done locally here has 60% detection rate (according to doctor) | 06:14 |
| ynjhof[m] | Here = where I am (not to be confused with the prison0 | 06:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 04:07 UTC: (news): Coronavirus: New plan would test 30 million per week and cost up to $100 billion, but 'we've got to do it' → https://is.gd/6PFJdu | 06:17 |
| ynjhof[m] | I don't know actually, statistically it may be improbable that what I said was right regarding 100% | 06:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 04:15 UTC: Australia coronavirus updates live: restrictions on some elective surgery lifted – latest news: As Australia’s infection rate falls, state and federal leaders have lifted some Covid-19 restrictions on elective surgery at meeting on Tuesday. Follow all the latest news, live → https://is.gd/gKNEub | 06:24 |
| heather | https://www.theburningplatform.com/2020/01/26/did-china-steal-coronavirus-from-canada-and-weaponize-it/ | 06:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 04:29 UTC: Coronavirus live news: Trump says he will suspend all immigration to US amid pandemic: President to sign temporary executive order ‘in light of attack from Invisible Enemy’; US oil market collapses into negative prices; global cases near 2.5 million. Follow the latest updates → https://is.gd/iFGkq3 | 06:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 04:41 UTC: Australia coronavirus updates live: restrictions on some elective surgery lifted – latest news: As Australia’s infection rate falls, state and federal leaders have lifted some Covid-19 restrictions on elective surgery at meeting on Tuesday. Follow all the latest news, live → https://is.gd/gKNEub | 06:53 |
| Philippe[m] | !covid USA | 06:54 |
| CoronaBot | USA: Global rank: #1, cases: 792,913 (+154), fatalities: 42,517 (+3), active cases: 678,007, total recovered: 72,389, in a serious condition: 13,951. Mortality: 5.36%, case fatality rate: 37.00%, cases/1M: 2395.0, deaths/1M: 128.0. Case rate: 28,123/24h, death rate: 1,939/24h. Tests: 4,027,367, tests/1M: 12,167. | 06:54 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 04:56 UTC: Coronavirus live updates: China reports 11 new cases and no deaths; Hong Kong will extend social restrictions: China reported 11 new confirmed cases of the coronavirus as of April 20. There were no deaths for the sixth straight day, according to the country's National Health Commission. → https://is.gd/sREN0l | 07:00 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Japan: +177 cases (now 11135) since 2 hours ago — US: +95 cases (now 794537) since an hour ago | 07:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 05:04 UTC: Australia coronavirus updates live: restrictions on some elective surgery lifted – latest news: As Australia’s infection rate falls, state and federal leaders have lifted some Covid-19 restrictions on elective surgery at meeting on Tuesday. Follow all the latest news, live → https://is.gd/gKNEub | 07:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 05:20 UTC: Coronavirus update live: RBA says Australia faces biggest contraction since Great Depression – latest news: As Australia’s infection rate falls, state and federal leaders have lifted some Covid-19 restrictions on elective surgery at meeting on Tuesday. Follow all the latest news, live → https://is.gd/gKNEub | 07:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 05:32 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: Trump says he's suspending immigration; Hong Kong to extend social restrictions → https://is.gd/sREN0l | 07:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 05:34 UTC: Coronavirus update live: RBA says Australia faces biggest contraction since Great Depression – latest news: As Australia’s infection rate falls, state and federal leaders have lifted some Covid-19 restrictions on elective surgery at meeting on Tuesday. Follow all the latest news, live → https://is.gd/gKNEub | 07:43 |
| stinkpot | thanks for the info tinwhiskers i'll look into it. sorry i got disconnected earlier | 07:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 06:11 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: Trump says he's suspending immigration; Hong Kong to extend social restrictions → https://is.gd/sREN0l | 08:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 06:20 UTC: Coronavirus live news: Donald Trump signals immigration ban as WHO says worst of crisis still to come: President to sign temporary executive order ‘in light of attack from Invisible Enemy’; US oil market collapses into negative prices; global cases near 2.5 million → https://is.gd/iFGkq3 | 08:32 |
| jacklsw | quiet time | 08:42 |
| jacklsw | mostly US/europe timezone here? | 08:43 |
| tinwhiskers | jacklsw: yeah, very quiet around this time. where do you hail from? | 08:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 06:36 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: UK coronavirus live: parliament returns amid mounting criticism of government → https://is.gd/hgaKNR | 08:47 |
| jacklsw | malaysia | 08:49 |
| jacklsw | GMT +8 | 08:49 |
| tinwhiskers | ah. Nice. I'm GMT+13. How's the battle going there? | 08:50 |
| tinwhiskers | you're up early l0ndoner! | 08:51 |
| l0ndoner | Yea about ready to go to work | 08:52 |
| l0ndoner | hows are you hows family? | 08:52 |
| tinwhiskers | oh. right. I forgot you're essential | 08:52 |
| tinwhiskers | do you enjoy going to work or feel you'd rather be slacking off like most other people? | 08:53 |
| l0ndoner | some days I think I'd like to get paid to slacken off.. But once I'm on the go its great .. No traffic and no pollution and people treat you like youve got a virus or something and avoid you like the plague | 08:54 |
| tinwhiskers | heh. well, you're making a difference so thanks | 08:55 |
| l0ndoner | Also after day job I run food parcels to elderly and vunerable | 08:55 |
| tinwhiskers | hrm. that's very good of you. | 08:55 |
| l0ndoner | do you have services like that where you are I mean volunteers? | 08:56 |
| tinwhiskers | no. we don't actually have any cases. we are in a minor lockdown but we don't have anything like that happening that I know of | 08:57 |
| tinwhiskers | are you able to grab a coffee on the go or something like that during the day? what gets you by? | 08:57 |
| l0ndoner | My delivery round is just not even a mile from my house.. But I take a flask of coffee and have a 24 can pack of pepsi max in van | 08:59 |
| tinwhiskers | ah. ok. so no takeaway coffee shops open? | 08:59 |
| l0ndoner | nothing is open apart from Major supermarkets | 08:59 |
| tinwhiskers | I see | 09:00 |
| l0ndoner | A few indipendant corner shops thats literaly about it | 09:00 |
| l0ndoner | where you from I know where Ljl is from | 09:01 |
| tinwhiskers | I'm from Tonga | 09:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 06:56 UTC: Markets rocked by record oil slump, as UK unemployment rises - business live: Rolling coverage of the latest economic and financial news, as Covid-19 recession drives US crude oil into negative territory → https://is.gd/rhVm4h | 09:01 |
| tinwhiskers | (actually from New Zealand, but living in Tonga) | 09:01 |
| l0ndoner | Oi Amazing coutry / countries | 09:02 |
| tinwhiskers | thanks :-) | 09:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 07:08 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: UK coronavirus live: parliament returns amid mounting criticism of government → https://is.gd/hgaKNR | 09:15 |
| M2020wp[m] | YOU ARE WATCHING AN INTER DIMENSIONAL SATANIC INVASION OF THIS PLANET. AND ITS BEEN PLANNED FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS, AND THEY ARE READY TO TAKE HUMANITY DOWN, RIGHT BEFORE WE GO INTERGALACTIC, INTERDIMENSIONAL | 09:21 |
| M2020wp[m] | china is open for business we are fucked the american people are too retarded | 09:22 |
| M2020wp[m] | at least in the cities | 09:22 |
| M2020wp[m] | GOD TOLD US THIS 2000 YEARS AGO THIS IS NOT A GOD DAMN GAME FOLKS THIS IS REAL | 09:23 |
| M2020wp[m] | https://banned.video/watch?id=5e9e240ed0f1f400b1231769&t=2745 | 09:24 |
| M2020wp[m] | MINUTE 54 TO 70 | 09:24 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: pwr22 I suggest you check that from the Matrix side | 09:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 07:20 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: Trump says he's suspending immigration; Hong Kong to extend social restrictions → https://is.gd/sREN0l | 09:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 07:25 UTC: Coronavirus live news: Donald Trump signals immigration ban as WHO says worst of crisis still to come: President to sign temporary executive order ‘in light of attack from Invisible Enemy’; US oil market collapses into negative prices; global cases near 2.5 million → https://is.gd/iFGkq3 | 09:36 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Singapore: +1111 cases (now 9125) since 5 hours ago — Punjab, Pakistan: +474 cases (now 4195) since 5 hours ago — US: +401 cases (now 794938) since 2 hours ago | 09:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 07:40 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: UK coronavirus live: parliament returns amid mounting criticism of government → https://is.gd/hgaKNR | 09:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 07:57 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Buongiorno a tutti, mentre eravate via → https://is.gd/b0uIcT | 09:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 07:59 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Ecco il tweet di Trump → https://is.gd/mHFSlI | 10:05 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Russia: +5642 cases (now 52763), +51 deaths (now 456) since 6 hours ago — Ukraine: +415 cases (now 6125) since 6 hours ago | 10:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 08:05 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Immunologia → https://is.gd/7vkhwo | 10:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 08:12 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: Germany cancels Oktoberfest; Singapore preliminarily reports 1,111 new cases → https://is.gd/sREN0l | 10:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 08:32 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Italia → https://is.gd/6hDUy2 | 10:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 08:47 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Trump → https://is.gd/5taSGm | 10:48 |
| Biep[m] | <kreyren "> Adults are now buying brest mi"> Colostrum (the yellow 'milk' of the first three days) is mainly antibiotics and immune-boosting stuff. Basically no food in there. The real milk still has some protective stuff in it, but much less so. | 10:55 |
| kreyren | Biep[m], like what? I can't imagine what proteins are there that would human body be able to process | 11:05 |
| mefistofeles | we already discussed this, in case you missed it :P | 11:06 |
| kreyren | i did | 11:06 |
| kreyren | mefistofeles, tldr? | 11:07 |
| mefistofeles | kreyren: basically we thought it was unlikely you get any real antibodies load from that, iirc | 11:08 |
| kreyren | So same as me, ping me if any relevant info proving otherwise is found | 11:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 09:00 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: UK coronavirus live: More than 15% of coronavirus deaths taking place outside hospital, says ONS → https://is.gd/hgaKNR | 11:09 |
| mefistofeles | ↑ uh, that'sa lot | 11:10 |
| mefistofeles | are UK hospitals already saturated? | 11:10 |
| kreyren | +8K~10K deaths? | 11:16 |
| kreyren | holyshit | 11:16 |
| kreyren | over a week? | 11:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 09:14 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Covid-19, oltre 170.000 morti nel mondo - Ultima Ora - ANSA → https://is.gd/bMOLmH | 11:16 |
| kreyren | mefistofeles, notice update on the provided link | 11:17 |
| kreyren | nwm | 11:17 |
| kreyren | 13121 deaths in a week? | 11:17 |
| mrvulcan[m] | Are you participating in BOINC? Are you participating in the Rosetta@home on BOINC? In doing so, you can help find a cure for COVID-19. | 11:19 |
| kreyren | mrvulcan[m], why is participating in BOINC relevant and how do they plan on making/finding a cure? | 11:20 |
| kreyren | what is even BOINC | 11:20 |
| mrvulcan[m] | <kreyren "what is even BOINC"> BOINC is short for Berkeley Open Infrastructure for Network Computing. You can find more information about it at https://bertvisscher.net/blog/20200417.php. | 11:22 |
| kreyren | mrvulcan[m], so basically using blockchain on apt-based linux distribution to provide the processing power for some tests? | 11:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 09:17 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Germania → https://is.gd/dl4j5L | 11:24 |
| mefistofeles | mrvulcan[m]: I commonly contribute to folding@home | 11:24 |
| mefistofeles | kreyren: not really blockchain, it's just a protocol and interface to distribute computational tasks across a large hybrid grid | 11:24 |
| mefistofeles | kreyren: you have linux pre-built binaries as well, so not need for apt/deb distro | 11:25 |
| kreyren | mefistofeles, the mensioned python script is using apt to get boinc packages? | 11:25 |
| kreyren | if you need a processing power you may want to share this in r/linux and in #linux there is lots of people who would be willing to donate computing power i believe | 11:26 |
| kreyren | i'm not convinced about the research that is being used for it though | 11:27 |
| mefistofeles | kreyren: it's pretty legit | 11:27 |
| mefistofeles | kreyren: and been running for decades now | 11:27 |
| mefistofeles | folding@home is from these famouse biophysics group in Stanford | 11:28 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: The Problem With Heroizing Health Care Workers Like Me | We don’t want glory. We just want our jobs to be protected—in every sense. (10072 votes) | https://redd.it/g53d9w | 11:29 |
| kreyren | i tasked my subordinates with it based on what they find i will donate some computing power ^-^ | 11:29 |
| mrvulcan[m] | <kreyren "mrvulcan, so basically using blo"> I don't think it uses Blockchain. All I know is what you can read in my blog post. | 11:29 |
| kreyren | mrvulcan[m], smelled like blockchain on first look to me | 11:30 |
| mefistofeles | kreyren: you can check Vijay Pande's work, he's pretty cited and pioneer on the field :P his group is the creator of folding@home | 11:30 |
| mefistofeles | kreyren: basically you just donate computing time, compute stuff on your computers, and they get the data to analyze... | 11:31 |
| mefistofeles | kreyren: https://apps.foldingathome.org/psummary you have the project list there, if you click the links you will get the project info and who's responsible for it (hopefully, sometis it doesn't work) | 11:34 |
| kreyren | mefistofeles, tbh too many info to process without sufficient motivation | 11:35 |
| mefistofeles | kreyren: haha ok | 11:35 |
| mefistofeles | kreyren: anyways you should read that before disqualifying it, just saying | 11:36 |
| stinkpot | it feels like you're marketing something mefistofeles =P | 11:36 |
| kreyren | mefistofeles, that's why subordinate is researching it now :p | 11:36 |
| mefistofeles | stinkpot: well, fair enough. If anything I'm advocating for open and citizen science and linking to one of the best projects there are for it | 11:37 |
| kreyren | i also like open science | 11:37 |
| kreyren | i consider it being the only valid science :p | 11:37 |
| mefistofeles | indeed | 11:37 |
| stinkpot | at least it's open and we can check if they're using our electricity effectively or not | 11:37 |
| stinkpot | but damn, electricity is expensive these days, gotta keep my computer off more | 11:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 09:32 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Belgio → https://is.gd/az2aca | 11:38 |
| kreyren | i'm not concerned about electricity itself, but more about a principe | 11:38 |
| stinkpot | the IT dept at my last job eventually banned folding@home | 11:38 |
| mefistofeles | if you are into servers and tech things, there's a nice related video from that Linus Tech tips guy... | 11:39 |
| mefistofeles | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaMjPs66cTs | 11:39 |
| stinkpot | Linus is the man | 11:40 |
| mefistofeles | oh hell, I'mfilling my swap :( | 11:41 |
| mefistofeles | really need more RAM in this machine | 11:41 |
| Biep[m] | <kreyren "Biep, like what? I can't imagine"> See [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colostrum), for instance. | 11:43 |
| mrvulcan[m] | <mefistofeles "really need more RAM in this mac"> So do I. | 11:43 |
| kreyren | Biep[m], tldr | 11:43 |
| Biep[m] | kreyren, NP. | 11:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 09:41 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: Germany cancels Oktoberfest; Spain's daily death rate rises slightly → https://is.gd/sREN0l | 11:45 |
| mefistofeles | Oktoberfest cancelled really? | 11:45 |
| mefistofeles | woah | 11:45 |
| kreyren | good | 11:46 |
| kreyren | Biep[m], i meant for you to give me a summary | 11:46 |
| mefistofeles | Biep[m]: don't bother xD | 11:46 |
| kreyren | -_- | 11:46 |
| Biep[m] | I understood that, but no. | 11:46 |
| kreyren | why | 11:46 |
| mefistofeles | kreyren: you better start reading and learning things for yourself | 11:47 |
| Biep[m] | * kreyren: I understood that, but no. | 11:47 |
| Biep[m] | People who only read one-liners can't be educated, in my experience. To bandwidth to pass nuance and detail. | 11:48 |
| Biep[m] | (I hope that is short enough..) | 11:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 09:42 UTC: Markets rocked by record oil slump, as UK unemployment rises - business live: Rolling coverage of the latest economic and financial news, as Covid-19 recession drives US crude oil into negative territory → https://is.gd/rhVm4h | 11:52 |
| kreyren | iiuc it has not been proven on the reference either | 11:57 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health at 09:55 UTC: Coronavirus: How big is the problem in care homes?: What's the scale of coronavirus in the UK's care sector, and is it possible to get accurate figures? → https://is.gd/Be8sXS | 11:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 10:05 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Italia - Società → https://is.gd/pDOxNQ | 12:07 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Spain: +3968 cases (now 204178), +430 deaths (now 21282) since 8 hours ago — Catalonia, Spain: +1436 cases (now 43112), +143 deaths (now 4152) since 8 hours ago — Madrid, Spain: +1034 cases (now 57997), +109 deaths (now 7460) since 8 hours ago | 12:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 10:18 UTC: (news): Coca-Cola says demand in April has been weakened by coronavirus pandemic, volume off 25% so far this month → https://is.gd/4j4f4T | 12:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 10:35 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: USA - Georgia → https://is.gd/V6gVtg | 12:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 10:39 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Italia → https://is.gd/zPc5Kr | 12:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 10:46 UTC: Singapore extends 'circuit breaker' partial lockdown measures until June 1: Singapore's Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong said on Tuesday that partial lockdown measures to stem the spread of the coronavirus in the country will be extended by four weeks to June 1. → https://is.gd/zAoiqd | 12:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 10:50 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: UK coronavirus live: ONS to investigate why 8,000 weekly 'excess' death toll even higher than Covid-19 figures imply → https://is.gd/hgaKNR | 12:57 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 10:58 UTC: (news): Coronavirus: New plan would test 30 million per week and cost up to $100 billion, but 'we've got to do it' → https://is.gd/6PFJdu | 13:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 11:05 UTC: Coronavirus live news: Singapore extends lockdown after sharp rise in cases: Donald Trump signals immigration ban; Oktoberfest cancelled; US oil market collapses into negative prices; global cases near 2.5 million → https://is.gd/iFGkq3 | 13:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 11:15 UTC: (news): Coca-Cola says demand in April has been weakened by coronavirus pandemic, volume off 25% so far this month → https://is.gd/4j4f4T | 13:18 |
| pwr22 | <mefistofeles "LjL: pwr22 I suggest you check t"> I don't see anything on the matrix side at all so I guess they got muted? | 13:19 |
| mefistofeles | pwr22: ok, thanks | 13:21 |
| pwr22 | There were a couple of messages after you asked me about it so it looks to me like voice doesn't bridge | 13:22 |
| pwr22 | kick / bans do seem to though | 13:22 |
| Biep[m] | * People who only read one-liners can't be educated, in my experience. No bandwidth to pass nuance and detail. | 13:24 |
| dTal | That's quitter talk | 13:30 |
| MinceR | depends on how long the lines are :> | 13:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 11:28 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: Spain's daily death rate rises slightly; Singapore extends 'circuit breaker' measures until June 1 → https://is.gd/sREN0l | 13:32 |
| mefistofeles | pwr22: ah ok, good to know, thaks | 13:35 |
| mefistofeles | *thanks | 13:35 |
| mefistofeles | Biep[m]: Well, yeah, that's ok... but don't try to have a real opinion and don't even dare to give one if you don't really show some effort has been put on reading and interpreting the available information | 13:36 |
| mefistofeles | I mean, not saying it's your case, obviously | 13:36 |
| mefistofeles | just in general | 13:36 |
| Biep[m] | Is that to me or to kreyren? | 13:39 |
| mefistofeles | Biep[m]: for no one specifically, but yeah, motivated by kreyren's behaviour | 13:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 11:32 UTC: (news): Spain's daily death rate from coronavirus rises slightly; Singapore extends 'circuit breaker' measures until June 1 → https://is.gd/sREN0l | 13:40 |
| Biep[m] | OK. | 13:40 |
| Biep[m] | The scary thing is - people vote on one-liners. Also in powerful countries, where the results greatly influence the whole world. | 13:41 |
| kreyren | what | 13:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 11:42 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: Coca-Cola takes a hit, proposed testing plan could cost $100 billion → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 13:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 11:59 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Singapore → https://is.gd/r8MPSq | 14:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 12:12 UTC: (news): Coronavirus: New plan would test 30 million per week and cost up to $100 billion, but 'we've got to do it' → https://is.gd/6PFJdu | 14:15 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Moscow City, Russia: +3083 cases (now 29433) since 10 hours ago — Iran: +649 cases (now 84154), +67 deaths (now 5276) since 10 hours ago — Qatar: +518 cases (now 6533) since 10 hours ago | 14:20 |
| ynjhof[m] | %data maldives | 14:21 |
| Brainstorm | ynjhof[m]: In all areas, Maldives, there are 76 cases (0.0% of the population) and 0 deaths (0.0% of cases) as of a minute ago. 4139 tests were performed (1.8% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Maldives for time series data. | 14:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 12:25 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: Coca-Cola takes a hit, proposed testing plan could cost $100 billion → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 14:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test)* at 12:28 UTC: CoronaVirus_ITALIA: 73% dei carcerati di una prigione dell'Ohio (USA) sono positivi al coronavirus → https://is.gd/iD5MvK | 14:37 |
| mefistofeles | so, mask will be mandatory from next monday one, that probably means they are relaxing and reopening many things here in the state | 14:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 12:48 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: Coca-Cola takes a hit, proposed testing plan could cost $100 billion → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 14:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test)* at 13:03 UTC: CoronaVirusInfo: Testing shows hundreds of thousands in LA County may have been infected with coronavirus → https://is.gd/snkoBX | 15:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 13:05 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: Coca-Cola takes a hit, proposed testing plan could cost $100 billion → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 15:12 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: Jacksonville infectious disease expert: ‘I think we’re prematurely opening up the beaches’ - “The way I can describe it is, I prescribe you a prescription for 10 days for a bacterial infection. You take that for two or three days and you’re feeling better, ‘Oh, I don’t need to take it anymore.’ (10099 votes) | https://redd.it/g5bvbn | 15:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 13:37 UTC: (news): Coca-Cola says demand has been weakened by coronavirus pandemic, volume off 25% this month → https://is.gd/4j4f4T | 15:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 13:47 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Economia → https://is.gd/hPYVcp | 15:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 13:49 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: Coca-Cola takes a hit, proposed testing plan could cost $100 billion → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 15:55 |
| oxalis | %data Texas | 16:09 |
| Brainstorm | oxalis: In Texas, US, there are 19751 cases (0.1% of the population) and 507 deaths (2.6% of cases) as of 4 minutes ago. 190394 tests were performed (10.4% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.9% (assuming deaths/cases with ⅔ undetected), and less than 8.2% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Texas for time series data. | 16:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 14:04 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: McDonald's gives away meals to frontliners, Hertz to lay off 10,000 workers → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 16:10 |
| oxalis | interesting... "Low" infection rate and "high" death rate | 16:10 |
| oxalis | points to a very poor testing coverage | 16:10 |
| ynjhof[m] | Yes bells ring when I see those numbers too | 16:12 |
| ynjhof[m] | I think I ought to sit in the lobby so my floor can sleep | 16:12 |
| oxalis | the vast majority of deaths, I think, will not be listed as Covid | 16:13 |
| oxalis | because the gubanator doesn't want bad numbers | 16:13 |
| ynjhof[m] | Lol my messages are beyond satellite TTK | 16:14 |
| ynjhof[m] | 50 seconds | 16:14 |
| ynjhof[m] | *minutes... Did you see the article with 17/bodies frin that nursing home? | 16:17 |
| wisbit | %date Canada | 16:21 |
| wisbit | %data Canada | 16:21 |
| Brainstorm | wisbit: In all areas, Canada, there are 37104 cases (0.1% of the population) and 1690 deaths (4.6% of cases) as of a minute ago. 555551 tests were performed (6.7% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.5% (assuming deaths/cases with ⅔ undetected), and less than 11.8% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Canada for time series data. | 16:21 |
| wisbit | %data Vancouver | 16:22 |
| Brainstorm | wisbit: Sorry, Vancouver not found. Either there aren't cases, or it's under a different name. | 16:22 |
| wisbit | %data Vancouver, BC | 16:22 |
| Brainstorm | wisbit: Sorry, Vancouver, BC not found. Either there aren't cases, or it's under a different name. | 16:22 |
| LjL | i'm going to make a test, don't mind me | 16:25 |
| The_8th_Dwarf | @y@ | 16:25 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, pwr22: hrm, somehow it didn't even replicate the kick, nevermind the ban | 16:27 |
| LjL-Matrix | * test2 | 16:27 |
| LjL | i would've definitely expected at least the kick | 16:28 |
| airdog[m] | > wisbit: Sorry, Vancouver not found. Either there aren't cases, or it's under a different name. | 16:29 |
| airdog[m] | Around 2000 deaths in Vancouver | 16:29 |
| airdog[m] | Sorry 2000 cases, around 130 deaths | 16:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 14:27 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Statistica → https://is.gd/xDA0YL | 16:31 |
| ubLIX | LjL: home server seems choked right now; could be a factor? | 16:31 |
| LjL | ubLIX, not sure. the test message and edit thereof worked right away, and i could see the IRC messages on the Matrix side pretty quickly | 16:32 |
| ubLIX | not available for sign in, as far as my client is concerned | 16:33 |
| LjL | although... lol, the *deletion* of the message failed to be sent | 16:33 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: I didn't kick him | 16:33 |
| LjL | ubLIX, well i'll try again later i guess, but i don't know if there is an end in sight to the home server being choked. federation is all well and good but as i probably said, when 90% of users are connecting from that one server... | 16:33 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: ah nvm, you were talking about the test case, sorry | 16:34 |
| LjL | yeah | 16:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 14:35 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: McDonald's gives away meals to frontliners, Hertz to lay off 10,000 workers → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 16:38 |
| yuri[m] | COVID celebrations in France https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/paris-police-fire-tear-gas-paris-minorities-riot-over-racist-lockdown-treatment | 16:40 |
| The_8th_Dwarf | https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/huge-birds-eye-up-pet-21900377 | 16:40 |
| yuri[m] | with rockets and everything | 16:40 |
| LjL | Biep[m], i am relatively confident Brainstorm is sending proper (insofar as Covidly is proper) updates to all the various channels again | 16:42 |
| pwr22 | <LjL "i would've definitely expected a"> Yeah, I didn't see any evidence of a kick etc happening on this side | 16:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 14:45 UTC: Brent crude plunges to 18-year low as oil slump rattles markets - business live: Rolling coverage of the latest economic and financial news, as Covid-19 recession drives US crude oil into negative territory → https://is.gd/rhVm4h | 16:53 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: does the other way work? kicking in matrix and reflected here in IRC? | 16:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 14:54 UTC: Cramer says, 'We've got to try something' as Georgia, other states begin to reopen: States should experiment with reopening their economies from their coronavirus shutdowns in order to save small businesses, CNBC's Jim Cramer said Tuesday. → https://is.gd/1gloIi | 17:00 |
| pwr22 | <LjL "ubLIX, well i'll try again later"> It doesn't scale horizontally that well atm but that's the main focus of dev work now so things should improve in the next few months | 17:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 15:04 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: McDonald's gives away meals to frontliners, Hertz to lay off 10,000 workers → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 17:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 15:26 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: NYC 'can't depend on the federal government,' auto sales seen plummeting → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 17:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 15:35 UTC: (news): Georgia got lifting coronavirus restrictions backward, Connecticut Gov. Ned Lamont says → https://is.gd/oiEoZ0 | 17:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 15:47 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Mondo → https://is.gd/Xojpat | 17:50 |
| rezgui | Hi all | 18:05 |
| rezgui | any body here ? | 18:06 |
| bin_bash | only 643 unique nicks, including duplicates in the matrix bridge | 18:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 16:06 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: PCM-DPC dati forniti dal Ministero della Salute AGGIORNAMENTO 21/04/2020 ORE 17.00 POSITIVI AL nCoV INCREMENTO Totale | DIMESSI/ CASI TOTAL DECEDUTI| CASITOTALI ‘TAMPONI Ricoverati | Terapia | \solamento | enn amen eonsintomi| intensiva | domictire | Sti precedente) Lombardia [9.805 851 23.322 [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/2A3cYM | 18:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 16:16 UTC: (news): Georgia got lifting coronavirus restrictions backward, Connecticut Gov. Ned Lamont says → https://is.gd/oiEoZ0 | 18:24 |
| jacklsw | less active than 100+ people in ##coronavirus-vox | 18:29 |
| jacklsw | :D | 18:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 16:28 UTC: Coronavirus cases are likely 10 to 20 times higher in US than reported, former FDA chief Gottlieb says: Health experts say there needs to be much more Covid-19 testing to better monitor the spread of coronavirus as states seek to reopen businesses and social settings. → https://is.gd/UvYVDZ | 18:31 |
| LjL | jacklsw, which is sometimes... a bit too active | 18:35 |
| LjL | it's hard to strike a balance, but i'm okay with having some calm periods | 18:36 |
| jacklsw | yeah | 18:36 |
| jacklsw | that's the voice channel | 18:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews Live* at 16:30 UTC: /u/slakmehl: Zeke Miller su Twitter: "A malaria drug widely touted by Pres Trump for treating the new coronavirus showed no benefit in a large analysis of its use in US veterans hospitals. There were more deaths among those given hydroxychloroquine versus standard care, researchers reported. https://t.co/l85dMZuAiw" → https://is.gd/yG5Kcv | 18:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 16:42 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: NYC's de Blasio slams federal government, Italy to begin easing lockdown in 2 weeks → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 18:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 16:49 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: New York's unemployment system collapses, UK begins human vaccine trials this week → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 18:53 |
| Blankspace | Ljl how's vivid situation today | 18:57 |
| Blankspace | %data | 18:58 |
| Brainstorm | Blankspace: In all areas, worldwide, there are 2.5 million cases (0.0% of the population) and 172136 deaths (6.9% of cases) as of 8 minutes ago. 22.1 million tests were performed (11.3% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=worldwide for time series data. | 18:58 |
| Blankspace | So many deaths . | 18:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 16:50 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: UK coronavirus live: Hancock says vaccine trials start this week but denies 'political decision' not to join EU ventilator scheme → https://is.gd/hgaKNR | 19:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 17:04 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: New York's unemployment system collapses, UK begins human vaccine trials this week → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 19:07 |
| _Anna_ | hi | 19:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test)* at 17:29 UTC: CoronaVirusInfo: US Records Lowest Number of CCP Virus Deaths in 2 Weeks → https://is.gd/bmidPp | 19:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews Live* at 17:40 UTC: /u/slakmehl: Bloomberg - Are you a robot? → https://is.gd/LOte6M | 19:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 17:46 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: New York's unemployment system collapses, UK begins human vaccine trials this week → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 19:51 |
| ubLIX | https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-52373888 | 19:51 |
| ubLIX | %t | 19:51 |
| Brainstorm | ubLIX: From www.bbc.co.uk: Coronavirus: World risks ‘biblical’ famines due to pandemic – UN - BBC News | 19:51 |
| ubLIX | "Those most at risk are in 10 countries affected by conflict, economic crisis and climate change, the WFP says." | 19:51 |
| mefistofeles | sad indeed | 19:51 |
| mefistofeles | though BBC | 19:51 |
| ubLIX | reporting on UN/WFP pronouncement | 19:52 |
| mefistofeles | ubLIX: what does WFP stand for again? | 19:52 |
| ubLIX | world food programme | 19:53 |
| mefistofeles | World Food Programme? | 19:53 |
| mefistofeles | ah ok | 19:53 |
| sternenmusik[m] | I don't feel well. My body seems to be ok, but I do feel something is not ok. | 19:55 |
| tinwhiskers | sternenmusik[m]: you're probably sick. It happens. | 19:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 17:55 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: Coronavirus live news: global confirmed cases pass 2.5m but Italy sees first significant fall in infections → https://is.gd/iFGkq3 | 19:58 |
| tinwhiskers | Unless you're in New York the chances are you illness is something other than covid. Check the topic for some links to symptoms, etc. Not feeling right might just mean to got too drunk last night. | 19:58 |
| ubLIX | "often the first sign of infection", although i often feel a similar non-specific malaise if i've failed to get enough sleep or eat properly for several days | 19:58 |
| bin_bash | based on what tinwhiskers? nobody else is really doing testing, so there's really no way to know what the infection rates are. | 19:59 |
| _abc_ | almost free PPE and masks from .cn https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3903937 | 19:59 |
| ubLIX | based on the idea 1001 things can cause malaise | 19:59 |
| tinwhiskers | Yes, but they're well below 50% of the population in most places | 19:59 |
| mefistofeles | we bought some creepy masks we will be wearing next week with my room mates xD | 20:00 |
| mefistofeles | now that they are mandatory in sme places haha | 20:00 |
| tinwhiskers | Nice :-) | 20:00 |
| bin_bash | 50% of the population of NY is not infected... | 20:00 |
| tinwhiskers | bin_bash: probably not, but if actual cases are 50* confirmed cases New York has 65% infected | 20:01 |
| bin_bash | wat | 20:01 |
| tinwhiskers | Some reports are saying it could be as high as 50 * but that is still unlikely imo | 20:01 |
| bin_bash | NYC numbers are overinflated because they're making assumptions without autopsies | 20:02 |
| bin_bash | The rest of the state is dependent on the location | 20:02 |
| tinwhiskers | Mmmm | 20:02 |
| bin_bash | https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109409/coronavirus-covid19-cases-rate-new-york-by-county/ | 20:02 |
| tinwhiskers | I'm on my phone now so can't really check those numbers against mine | 20:03 |
| tinwhiskers | I was surprised when I worked that out too as it went against what I was saying, not it's not impossible that 50% of New York is infected - I think it's still unlikely | 20:04 |
| _abc_ | tinwhiskers: it is not at all unlikely that a large conurbation has a large % infected | 20:05 |
| tinwhiskers | In any case, with population infection rates most likely around 10-25% any disease you have is more likely to be something other than covid | 20:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews Live* at 18:02 UTC: /u/slakmehl: Jim Roberts su Twitter: "US Attorney General says he’s considering legal action against governors who continue to impose stringent rules to deal with the pandemic. https://t.co/2dp2o67CgD… https://t.co/YImtJdAHQI" → https://is.gd/1AF9T1 | 20:05 |
| _abc_ | tinwhiskers: based on 1.23 R per day alone it would take about this long (since February) for that to be achieved. | 20:05 |
| bin_bash | Are we talking about the entire state of NY or only NYC tinwhiskers? | 20:05 |
| tinwhiskers | The entire state | 20:06 |
| bin_bash | I find that very unlikely then. | 20:06 |
| bin_bash | I think upstate and western NY are less impacted than southern | 20:06 |
| _abc_ | Just one infected person would be able to infect 247917 people in 60 days. | 20:06 |
| bin_bash | Based on these numbers | 20:06 |
| _abc_ | 1.23^60 | 20:06 |
| tinwhiskers | I agree, but the numbers are plausible if actual cases are 50 times confirmed cases | 20:06 |
| tinwhiskers | _abc_: with social distancing, etc, that's massively simplistic | 20:07 |
| bin_bash | true, but if that's the case than the fatality of the disease wouuld shrink humongously | 20:07 |
| _abc_ | 50 times is unlikely, 5 to 10 times is realistic imo | 20:07 |
| tinwhiskers | _abc_: agreed | 20:07 |
| tinwhiskers | bin_bash: yes | 20:08 |
| _abc_ | tinwhiskers: I don't care about that, look at the slope of the growth. It's a simple log equation to predict a) how many people actually have it when he graph is at point t in time, from how many there will be at t+10 days (double) | 20:08 |
| tinwhiskers | I don't think the 50* figure stacks up but there are several studies giving that sort of amount | 20:08 |
| bin_bash | I think if it's 50x the actual numbers then the lockdown was pointless | 20:08 |
| _abc_ | Applying the same backwards it means whenever there are X sick on day t there are actually 10*X sick on day t | 20:08 |
| tinwhiskers | _abc_: yes, but that doesn't consider the amount of undiagnosed cases, which is the entire point | 20:09 |
| _abc_ | bin_bash: the purpose of the lockdown is one and only one: to slow down the slope so people who are sick get a chance at a hospital bed and possibly respirator. | 20:09 |
| _abc_ | tinwhiskers: the 10x considers it. | 20:09 |
| bin_bash | _abc_: yes but if the actual numbers are 50x what we know then the majority of people are either asymptomatic or have very mild symptoms, and theyve been going aroudn spreading it anyway | 20:10 |
| _abc_ | bin_bash: even if, the count at the hospital gate is what matters. | 20:10 |
| tinwhiskers | Yes the 10x considers it and is the very number in question | 20:10 |
| _abc_ | Because that's where the beds and respirators are limited | 20:10 |
| _abc_ | tinwhiskers: Maybe. Let's hope the better outcome is the real one. | 20:11 |
| _abc_ | I don't know what is better now, possibly that everyone had it already. | 20:11 |
| tinwhiskers | Yeah. I'm skeptical that it could be 50x so agree with you | 20:11 |
| bin_bash | yeah | 20:12 |
| tinwhiskers | Therefore my point that if you have a disease it's more likely to not be covid stands | 20:12 |
| bin_bash | agreed | 20:12 |
| bin_bash | but i guess it depends on factors like what you do and who ytouve come into contact with | 20:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 18:08 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: New York's unemployment system collapses, UK begins human vaccine trials this week → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 20:12 |
| tinwhiskers | For sure | 20:12 |
| bin_bash | random person living in BFE and not coming into contact with others? very low. someone who goes out all the time and doesnt follow social distancing? significantly hgiher | 20:13 |
| bin_bash | also i admit to being overly paranoid about it | 20:13 |
| _abc_ | One hopes that the mask game really helps, and that minimal dose virus recipients end up with the low impact disease not with the heavy one. | 20:13 |
| tinwhiskers | All things being equal and with no further information just feeling not right is less likely to be due to covid than something else | 20:13 |
| bin_bash | yeah agreed. i wish that the WHO had said "everyone fashion their own cloth masks... here's how" from the getgo | 20:13 |
| _abc_ | one feels no right from reading the news already | 20:13 |
| tinwhiskers | bin_bash++ | 20:13 |
| bin_bash | very true lol | 20:13 |
| _abc_ | I tend to develop cold hands and a dry cough reading the headlines lately. | 20:14 |
| tinwhiskers | Heh | 20:14 |
| bin_bash | haha | 20:14 |
| ubLIX | lol | 20:14 |
| bin_bash | it certainly doesnt help that i have very bad allergies | 20:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 18:09 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: UK coronavirus live: Hancock says human vaccine trials start this week as death toll rises by 823 → https://is.gd/hgaKNR | 20:20 |
| smokey | what does everybody think about nano-chip implants with vaccine history?? | 20:21 |
| smokey | Bill Gates big idea | 20:21 |
| ubLIX | that'll be a Hello No from me | 20:22 |
| ubLIX | *Hell | 20:22 |
| bin_bash | it's entirely unnecessary | 20:22 |
| tinwhiskers | smokey: utter nonsense | 20:22 |
| smokey | agreed, but fact is looking stranger than fiction these days / most days | 20:23 |
| tinwhiskers | Only if you surround yourself with quacks. | 20:23 |
| bin_bash | smokey: do you even have a source for that as an idea? | 20:23 |
| smokey | http://id2020.org/ | 20:26 |
| smokey | whoops site down hehe | 20:26 |
| tinwhiskers | https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-coronavirus-bill-gates-micr-idUSKBN21I3EC | 20:26 |
| tinwhiskers | Hoax | 20:26 |
| smokey | https://id2020.org/alliance | 20:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 18:18 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: New York's unemployment system collapses, UK begins human vaccine trials this week → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 20:27 |
| smokey | ok thnx tinwhiskers, somewhat of a relief | 20:27 |
| _abc_ | I'd like to see the nanofeature capable chip industry turning out antigen and virus matching/detecting ICs. | 20:28 |
| bin_bash | i wouldnt | 20:28 |
| _abc_ | If CPUs can have 7nm features they can easily detect proteins with the right coatings on them | 20:28 |
| _abc_ | I would bin_bash because a lot of the mayhem going on now depends on testing reliably and a lot and over and over again | 20:29 |
| _abc_ | And the chemical soup PCR based methods are not okay for this. 3 days for a return is not going to cut it. | 20:29 |
| tinwhiskers | rtPCR only takes a short time to perform. That's mostly logistics. | 20:30 |
| _abc_ | I'd much prefer someone got the silicon ic based testing going somehow and have that available at every market or hospital or clinic door. | 20:30 |
| tinwhiskers | But yeah, that would be cool | 20:30 |
| _abc_ | tinwhiskers: rPCR cycles would be quite slow afair. Need a decent number of cycles too, a few hours at least | 20:31 |
| MinceR | RFID/NFC chip implants, especially from a mafia boss whose products are renowned for being of extremely low quality and being hostile to anyone outside his criminal organization? that would be a hard no from me. | 20:31 |
| tinwhiskers | _abc_: nah, not that long for rtPCR | 20:31 |
| bin_bash | MinceR: i don't think you know what a lot of those words mean | 20:31 |
| _abc_ | tinwhiskers: It's cycle count based no? Each cycle is a x2 factor. 10 times is 1024x. | 20:32 |
| _abc_ | Iirc there is also a gain limit above which garbage begins to be produced, likely under 10^6 or so. | 20:32 |
| tinwhiskers | _abc_: you only perform 20 cycles and they take a few minutes each with classical pcr. | 20:32 |
| _abc_ | 20 cycles is about 10^6? | 20:32 |
| dzho | and you compare against controls for the rise of garbage | 20:32 |
| _abc_ | give or take a little. | 20:33 |
| _abc_ | 2^20 is 1048576 | 20:33 |
| tinwhiskers | I don't know if the difference with rtPCR but maybe not much, however there are faster methods available using pcr now | 20:33 |
| _abc_ | Last time I looked there was no easy way for one of them, don't remember if rna or antigen. I am sure it is sorted. | 20:34 |
| _abc_ | bbl | 20:34 |
| tinwhiskers | K | 20:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 18:31 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: L'appello dei medici: "Farmaci e vaccino siano accessibili per tutti" - la Repubblica → https://is.gd/9B5JfO | 20:34 |
| _abc_ | Last time was years ago. | 20:34 |
| smokey | I would be curious who would be financially incentivized to securely and safely manage the rollout | 20:34 |
| Blankspace | Is America trying to achieve herd immunity | 20:34 |
| tinwhiskers | smokey: of something that doesn't exist? | 20:34 |
| dzho | Blankspace: I don't think it's so much a deliberate attempt as a default result | 20:35 |
| smokey | assuming best case scenario on performance of chips (unlikely), is the overarching goal the mass preservation of life? and who’s most incentivized in this case? | 20:35 |
| _abc_ | it's the mass preservation of consumers, voters and taxpayers! /me will be quiet now | 20:35 |
| smokey | tinwhiskers so you’re saying such chips don’t exist and won’t exist for some time so no point in discussing? | 20:36 |
| tinwhiskers | I thought you were referring to the bill Gates chips still. Ignore me | 20:36 |
| MinceR | bin_bash: did i offend you or one of your favorite corporations? | 20:37 |
| Arsanerit | Apparently the USA has no collectively paid furlough which may be why it has so many unemployed now. | 20:37 |
| smokey | nah you’re good tinwhiskers | 20:37 |
| tinwhiskers | MinceR: we tend to have s dim view of people posting conspiracy theories and hoaxes that could could have easily been checked before posting, so you started out on a bad foot. | 20:38 |
| MinceR | uh huh | 20:39 |
| MinceR | too bad | 20:39 |
| bin_bash | MinceR: i use linux lol | 20:39 |
| tinwhiskers | But your question had merit, so apologies | 20:39 |
| MinceR | yeah, the criminal organization mentioned also advertised themselves as "loving Linux", while blackmailing corporations for selling devices with Linux | 20:39 |
| MinceR | but hey, as long as they throw enough money at the issue, they're right | 20:39 |
| bin_bash | lol | 20:40 |
| tinwhiskers | ... yeah... well | 20:40 |
| tinwhiskers | There goes that merit | 20:40 |
| smokey | I don’t think we to conspire about the idea that there are individuals and corporations acting like mafia bosses using low-quality materials/products and whos concerns are limited to constituents | 20:40 |
| smokey | seems like obvious facts to me | 20:41 |
| MinceR | even if they weren't criminals, i wouldn't trust their products to allow them inside my body. | 20:41 |
| MinceR | testing is something they believe belongs on the brochure as a statement, not an actual practice | 20:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test)* at 18:38 UTC: CoronavirusGLOBAL: Extracorporeal Membrane Oxygenation (ECMO) & CPR for Coronavirus (COVID-19) Patients - Do It or Not? → https://is.gd/SrkXFM | 20:41 |
| tinwhiskers | This is not the way a rational discussion is held | 20:41 |
| smokey | “trust, but verify” prob shouldn’t apply to anything entering your body lol | 20:42 |
| tinwhiskers | Emotionally laden hyperbole | 20:42 |
| smokey | rationality always considers past offenses | 20:42 |
| MinceR | yes, of course | 20:42 |
| MinceR | offending the holy cows is not "rational" | 20:42 |
| tinwhiskers | I think we should just call an end to this topic or move it to another channel | 20:42 |
| bin_bash | bill gates isnt even italian | 20:42 |
| smokey | hahaha | 20:43 |
| smokey | good point | 20:43 |
| tinwhiskers | I'd suggest ##coronavirus-vox but it's not really topical there either | 20:43 |
| LjL | i'd like to know where on https://id2020.org/ it actually talks about implanting an identity chip | 20:43 |
| smokey | I’d say global vaccine rollout feasability discussion belongs here | 20:44 |
| LjL | they have a vague mission statement and manifesto. how do i know what they really do want to do? | 20:44 |
| tinwhiskers | smokey: sure. But in a rational way | 20:44 |
| MinceR | i don't know if anyone really wants to implants chips in people to prove vaccination, and i suspect they won't do it here first anyway | 20:44 |
| LjL | i'd also say there is no need to call anyone a mafia anything if we're going to have a discussion on merits | 20:44 |
| smokey | conformity to intelligence is always admired | 20:45 |
| MinceR | as for microsoft, their behavior and history are well documented | 20:45 |
| LjL | what is "here"? | 20:45 |
| LjL | they won't implant chips in this channel first? | 20:45 |
| bin_bash | MinceR: did you know that bill gates doesnt even work for microsoft anymore and hasnt for a decade? | 20:46 |
| MinceR | "work" | 20:46 |
| bin_bash | he's not a part of microsoft anymore | 20:46 |
| MinceR | by "here" i meant hungary | 20:46 |
| bin_bash | and hasnt been for over 10 years | 20:46 |
| MinceR | not officially | 20:46 |
| smokey | please, no dubious opinions here everyone | 20:46 |
| MinceR | not that his foundation is any more benign | 20:46 |
| MinceR | again, this is all well documented, some of it in their own words | 20:46 |
| bin_bash | this isn't an opinion, it's fact. gates stepped down from microsoft in like 2007 or 2008 | 20:46 |
| tinwhiskers | If there was any chance of you discussing that topic here MinceR it's rapidly evaporating | 20:46 |
| MinceR | am i supposed to be intimidated? | 20:47 |
| tinwhiskers | MinceR: get back to the crux of the matter or move on | 20:47 |
| bin_bash | ah i take it back, he stepped down entirely in 2014 not 2008. | 20:47 |
| bin_bash | just wanted to correct what i said. he stepped down in 2008 but remained on the board until 2014 | 20:48 |
| smokey | what year did Jeff Skilling step down? | 20:48 |
| smokey | jk jk | 20:48 |
| LjL | i agree PART of this is relevant, and it's the part where we have some kind of vaccination certificate, whether implanted in our body or otherwise part of our identity | 20:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test)* at 18:44 UTC: CoronaVirusInfo: Missouri Becomes First State to File Lawsuit Against CCP Over Virus → https://is.gd/l0cxnI | 20:49 |
| LjL | but instead of discussion on that, i see handwaving that it is happening, and attacks on companies for their practices | 20:49 |
| tinwhiskers | Microsoft is really not relevant the the topic of micro chip implants for diagnostic purposes | 20:49 |
| smokey | prob easily ploppped onto our REAL IDs | 20:49 |
| LjL | but i'm way more interested in the actual vaccine thing | 20:49 |
| MinceR | i don't really see why this would be so important to implant anyway | 20:49 |
| smokey | lets talk vaccines | 20:49 |
| MinceR | our national IDs and passports are not important to implant, so why this? | 20:49 |
| LjL | not that's a relevant question | 20:49 |
| LjL | but again, who is actually proposing implanting them? | 20:49 |
| MinceR | not sure | 20:50 |
| LjL | because on the id2020 sites i don't clearly see that | 20:50 |
| tinwhiskers | There was no talk of implanting them | 20:50 |
| smokey | my REAL ID would say “hep B/C, Polio, and Pox" | 20:50 |
| MinceR | maybe the people who fawn over bill gates can tell us whether he explicitly said so or it's just speculation | 20:50 |
| smokey | I suppose I would get the coronavirus vaccine but like | 20:50 |
| tinwhiskers | Implants were mentioned for diagnostic purposes, not id purposes | 20:50 |
| tinwhiskers | And only as an aside to the links | 20:50 |
| LjL | MinceR, enough of allegations and casting shadows on people | 20:50 |
| smokey | yea implanting is just a sturdy suspicion since Bible pub date | 20:50 |
| LjL | you can come back to the discussion in about ten minutes | 20:51 |
| smokey | damn apostles spreading pandemonium | 20:51 |
| LjL | hopefully in a different tone | 20:51 |
| LjL | i already have a vaccination history anyway | 20:52 |
| smokey | ok but aren’t they taking blood samples at some airports already? | 20:52 |
| LjL | i would have to present it if i were to leave to certain countries | 20:52 |
| LjL | (i mean, not at the present moment obviously) | 20:52 |
| LjL | i don't know | 20:52 |
| smokey | we’re certainly interested in ID assoc w ID | 20:52 |
| tinwhiskers | Passports are already a perfectly good border identification. | 20:53 |
| tinwhiskers | Passport id and database should be fine | 20:53 |
| LjL | and the database would then contain the list of vaccinations i've had and/or the list of viruses i carry? | 20:53 |
| tinwhiskers | Yeah, and blood test results maybe | 20:54 |
| LjL | i think i find that slightly scary | 20:54 |
| LjL | and by slightly i mean quite scary | 20:54 |
| tinwhiskers | Maybe not blood test results. Or only a very high level of information on specific criteria | 20:55 |
| smokey | id & date of vaccine strain | 20:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews Live* at 18:53 UTC: /u/slakmehl: Christian Odendahl su Twitter: "Germany plans massive new health package, including increasing #testing capacity to 4.5 million a week, to allow a swifter return to ‘normal’. https://t.co/vJkEhx8gM2" → https://is.gd/60VX6t | 20:56 |
| tinwhiskers | Yeah, that doesn't seem too concerning | 20:56 |
| smokey | i’m cool w it | 20:56 |
| tinwhiskers | It might concern antivaxers but who cares | 20:57 |
| LjL | i think i'd feel much better about carrying something myself (not implanted, ideally, that doesn't appeal to me) that comes with enough clever cryptography to minimize the data i give at borders, while still allowing them to confirm a "clean enough for their standards" state | 20:57 |
| smokey | I’d get a bit squirly if my record said “requires further validation” | 20:57 |
| LjL | if we really need to have this sort of slightly dystopian "virus profile" system for travelling in the first place | 20:57 |
| smokey | and then I get ushered into a back room with needles lol | 20:57 |
| LjL | which i'd rather not have, but do expect something will be pushed after this epidemic, also looking at attitudes here | 20:57 |
| tinwhiskers | Mmmm | 20:57 |
| tinwhiskers | I wouldn't mind the passport linked database provided it have only very minimal information | 20:58 |
| bin_bash | I would because we can't trust the 3rd party vendors to maintain proper security and it's only a matter of time before it's all leaked | 20:58 |
| bin_bash | and then yay your passport id is now linked to your medical history and is in the public domain | 20:58 |
| smokey | and anything easily scanable can be easily impersonated | 20:59 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, when i said it would contain a list of vaccinations i've had and a list of viruses i carry, you didn't bat an eyelid. but that doesn't seem very "minimal" to me, especially considering that once i'm carrying a virus, i cannot un-carry it. it's basically saying that my ID can be directly connected to whether i'm HIV+, for instance. | 20:59 |
| LjL | ask most HIV+ people what they'd think about that... | 20:59 |
| smokey | is there a ##vaccines channel where I can discuss my general uneasiness with vaccine processes in general? lol | 21:00 |
| tinwhiskers | If this is for the purposes of border disease control it only needs to contain info about diseases of concern. There's no reason hiv needs to be there | 21:00 |
| Streaker | there was a highly publicised trial of a covid-19 vaccine a few weeks ago. is there any update on it? | 21:00 |
| LjL | smokey, if there is, then you probably can, if there isn't, you can make it | 21:00 |
| tinwhiskers | Yellow fever vaccination status, for example doesn't seem like a problem | 21:01 |
| tinwhiskers | I'd prefer that than having to carry separate documentation for it | 21:01 |
| Arsanerit | The science fiction film "Live", which has a release at an ongoing online film festival, is about a society in which all public gatherings are banned and all meetings, concerts, sport matches etc. are taking place online only. https://online.lichter-filmfest.de/film/live/ | 21:02 |
| LjL | and to think two months ago i could freely travel within the 27-28 countries in the EU without even showing an ID (unless required within a given country for all people, which really, it often is) | 21:02 |
| Arsanerit | LjL: wasn't Bergamo already quartined two months ago? | 21:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 18:59 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: New York's unemployment system collapses, UK begins human vaccine trials this week → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 21:03 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, no. Bergamo was never specifically quarantined at all, only as part of Lombardy and later Italy | 21:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews Live* at 19:06 UTC: /u/slakmehl: Members of Kemp’s coronavirus task force didn’t know about... → https://is.gd/JwmwpC | 21:10 |
| Arsanerit | LjL: Aha. | 21:10 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, anyway the first quarantine (of about 50000 people in Lombardy, but not near Bergamo) was announced on february 22, so tomorrow we can celebrate i guess | 21:12 |
| LjL | i'll bring the champagne, who brings the PCR? | 21:12 |
| ynjhof[m] | I bring the rubbing alcohol? | 21:13 |
| ynjhof[m] | (No drink) | 21:13 |
| LjL | isopropyl would be better but sure | 21:13 |
| tinwhiskers | LjL: I guess coming from two island nations it just seems normal to have to have your passport with you when you cross the border and it seems like having vaccination status that is already required linked to your passport instead of separate wouldn't be a privacy concern and would actually be easier to use (aside from difficulties managing such a system). Adding something like a covid test or vaccine date doesn't seem that bad to me. | 21:13 |
| tinwhiskers | We don't require an HIV statement now afaik and wouldn't under a passport-linked scheme | 21:15 |
| ynjhof[m] | https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/04/cdcs-failed-coronavirus-tests-were-tainted-with-coronavirus-feds-confirm/ | 21:15 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, it's always about adding one small thing to another small thing or consolidating two things into one single thing. there were discussions that sounded similar when smartphones were in their infancy, with a lot of "you don't have to use it so it's not a problem" thinking too, as well as "this basically already happened except for some small things"... and at the end of it all, now, if i raise issues with the idea of a government-backed contact | 21:15 |
| LjL | tracing app, people are just like "oh come on, they were already tracking you anyway, if you were okay with that what difference does it make?" | 21:15 |
| LjL | except i was never okay with that... i pushed back every time, and i had to become used to a "new normal" every time, despite being unhappy with it | 21:15 |
| tinwhiskers | The slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy. | 21:15 |
| LjL | you can't brush off what i'm saying with saying it's a logical fallacy. it's a logical fallacy to assume the slippery slope will always occur, but slippery slope patterns DO often occur | 21:16 |
| tinwhiskers | Immunisation records being linked to passports doesn't necessitate the slippery slope will happen either | 21:17 |
| tinwhiskers | But yes, things change over time and some of those go in the direction of a slippery slope. | 21:17 |
| LjL | i don't have a passport to begin with. i guess i shouldn't even be worrying about this. because i never needed a passport to travel in the EU. i still won't, right? because there is no need for any of that to change, as it's long been considered one of the most liked thing about being in the European Union (and there are a lot of things people DON'T like, so that's something!) | 21:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 19:10 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: Coronavirus live news: global confirmed cases pass 2.5m but Italy sees first significant fall in infections → https://is.gd/iFGkq3 | 21:18 |
| tinwhiskers | Well, then in the case of the eu it either wouldn't apply inside the eu, would be linked to your national id card *as well* or require you carry your passport during a pandemic | 21:19 |
| tinwhiskers | Even if separate documentation remains an option I'd certainly prefer mine was linked to my passport | 21:20 |
| LjL | i think i'd rather a large dose of morphine that the world we're going to have after this | 21:20 |
| LjL | i wanted to puke at the world badly enough before this | 21:20 |
| tinwhiskers | Heh | 21:20 |
| ynjhof[m] | My health records are stored by third parties and accessed freely by the gov. | 21:20 |
| ynjhof[m] | I would not say the same for my keys, or electronic devices. | 21:20 |
| ubLIX | boiling frog might be more apt than slippery slope | 21:20 |
| ubLIX | agency might be more significant here than free fall descent | 21:20 |
| ynjhof[m] | :) but I agree in the sense they probably build quite a dossier on citizens already | 21:21 |
| stinkpot | ljl no passport!? | 21:21 |
| stinkpot | seems odd in this day and age of more identification needed | 21:22 |
| LjL | ubLIX, either way i'd have to have enough imagination to present a significant yet realistic threat to people based on the elements they tell me will be added that are supposedly harmless. and i'm usually not good enough at doing that. i can smell the scent, i could tell that "trusted computing" didn't really sound like something i could trust, but i couldn't have predicted the exact details of a TPM chips or the secure boot in uEFI | 21:22 |
| IndoAnon | wkwk | 21:22 |
| LjL | ubLIX, see also: stinkpot | 21:22 |
| LjL | what do i even say | 21:22 |
| IndoAnon | """secure computing""" | 21:23 |
| LjL | <Brainstorm> New from Brexit @ The Guardian at 17:18 UTC: UK refusal of EU ventilator offer was 'political decision': Senior Foreign Office official tells MPs that ministers refused scheme because UK had left the EU → https://is.gd/T7aemu | 21:23 |
| IndoAnon | hmm | 21:23 |
| ubLIX | lurk this blog to build up your security technicalities and politics cornucopia vocabulary: https://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram/ | 21:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews Live* at 19:19 UTC: /u/slakmehl: Nate Silver su Twitter: "The positive test rate continues to plummet in New York City, to 28.5% in tests disclosed today. It was 42.5% a week ago and peaked at 59.4% on March 29. https://t.co/1w2VrzC4FG" → https://is.gd/hBp2VD | 21:25 |
| ubLIX | eg, if you need an argument for why "nothing to fear, nothing to hide" is ridiculous, you can mine Schneier's output; he's covered/will cover just about every angle | 21:25 |
| tinwhiskers | LjL: what if, say, at the time of getting a vaccination or test you have to approve it being linked to your passport database so those that don't want it can choose to carry separate paperwork and those that prefer the simplicity can do so? | 21:25 |
| pyna | in the US we get the new shitty world plus no morphine - because in classic USA style we reacted to overprescribing opiates by underprescribing them and causing "an epidemic" | 21:26 |
| Birosso | %cases US | 21:27 |
| Brainstorm | Birosso: In all areas, US, there are 795733 cases (0.2% of the population) and 42708 deaths (5.4% of cases) as of 7 minutes ago. 4.0 million tests were performed (19.8% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data. | 21:27 |
| IndoAnon | hmm | 21:27 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, maybe. i was much more disturbed at the fact nobody seemingly objected to my suggestion that aside from vaccination status, you'd also have a list of viruses you carry linked | 21:27 |
| ynjhof[m] | Wow that is getting serious numbers | 21:27 |
| pyna | my mom fell and broke her jaw and shattered a tooth and they wouldn't give her any painkillers | 21:27 |
| LjL | which i made explicit because, in turn, the discussion seemed to imply it | 21:27 |
| stinkpot | when did you suggest that ljl? | 21:27 |
| tinwhiskers | LjL: yes, that would be a problem | 21:27 |
| LjL | and i wanted confirmation of whether people would find that outrageous | 21:28 |
| LjL | i got no such thing, and so i guess i have my answer as to what i should expect from the future in terms of what people will accept, even gladly | 21:28 |
| ecov | the 5.4% deathrate figure is nearly useless | 21:28 |
| tinwhiskers | Well, i would not find having the test status for presence of covid to be a problem, so provided this is optional then out would be ok | 21:28 |
| blkshp | KindOne: hat trick? | 21:29 |
| LjL | stinkpot, when i said <LjL> and the database would then contain the list of vaccinations i've had and/or the list of viruses i carry? | 21:29 |
| stinkpot | oh | 21:29 |
| ubLIX | LjL: "and so i guess i have my answer", well, no. i just got here, for example | 21:29 |
| IndoAnon | who is behind the prescription crunch? the miracle "oxycontin"? sackler family | 21:30 |
| tinwhiskers | I was still processing what might be a reasonable approach | 21:30 |
| ubLIX | i mean, 75% of the channel nicks are probably in another tab right now, so.. | 21:30 |
| LjL | ubLIX, i am already fully convinced that you are about as far as it gets from a representative sample of the consensus in our general population | 21:30 |
| ubLIX | ha | 21:30 |
| stinkpot | ublix seems a bit straight to me too | 21:30 |
| ecov | LjL: are you wanting to know if people are OK with a database? | 21:31 |
| LjL | uh, other than that | 21:31 |
| tinwhiskers | ecov: the concern was that having a database that included *all* viruses would be a problem for people with, say, HIV. | 21:32 |
| LjL | i'm not sure what i want to know. i probably want to know more than it's good for me to know. | 21:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 19:24 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: New York's unemployment system collapses, UK begins human vaccine trials this week → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 21:32 |
| stinkpot | ljl if your country or province was updating to enhanced ID cards that comes will all sorts of strings attached, and you had the option to use a passport as an ID instead, would you then get a passport and forego the updated ID card? | 21:33 |
| ecov | Healthcare privacy is what made Roe v. Wade possible.... | 21:33 |
| ecov | I'd prefer to keep medical history private | 21:34 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, that's one example, but have some hypothetical slippery slope: HPV is a very common virus, but if you *don't* carry it (and there's a vaccination for it now, but it wasn't always there), you are sort of immune from certain types of cancers. if this information were systematically available, especially on entering other countries, would i feel good about going to the US, for instance, and knowing that i only have a tinier, much more expensive | 21:34 |
| LjL | choice of health insurance contracts i can get for my stay, compared to my plane seat mate who is negative to HPV? | 21:34 |
| tinwhiskers | This is why any test result would have to be approved by the person before the results can be added to the passport database. You don't want it there, it isn't there. | 21:34 |
| bin_bash | you're not immune from certain types of cancer. You're immune from the viruses that may cause those kinds of cancer. You can still get the cancer another way. | 21:35 |
| ecov | LjL: the HPV vaccine doesn't cover every variation of the virus | 21:35 |
| bin_bash | tinwhiskers: the problem is that it's a slippery slope. once you allow it then countries can determine which is required and what isnt | 21:35 |
| tinwhiskers | bin_bash: it's not a slippery if any additions require individual approval from the passport holder | 21:36 |
| bin_bash | tinwhiskers: that's not how it would go in reality | 21:36 |
| ecks | gardasil-9 covers most of the clinically relevant variations | 21:36 |
| LjL | stinkpot, i don't know. what sort of strings? i don't know what countries and regions are doing with ID cards. we've repeatedly moved to electronic ID in italy and then went back because they weren't working. i do have an electronic ID at the moment, and compared to my previous paper ID, it was baffling: i had to pay much more, for the "privilege" of having THREE fingers of EACH hand scanner (as opposed to NO fingerprint in the old card), and then just a | 21:36 |
| LjL | few months later i got a letter that due to a glitch during emission of my batch of cards, the date printed didn't match the date on the chip, and that i should get my card replaced, because with that glitch, using it to cross borders (like with the UK) could get me in trouble, as they may suspect fake ID | 21:36 |
| bin_bash | the country in question could say "we dont want anyone with HIV here. you have to be HIV negative on your passport to enter" | 21:36 |
| bin_bash | and let's be real, they WOULD. | 21:36 |
| tinwhiskers | The country in question could say that now but don't | 21:37 |
| bin_bash | not really | 21:37 |
| bin_bash | once it's data attached to a passport then it's a simple scan | 21:37 |
| tinwhiskers | You have to have these records now and they don't include that stuff | 21:37 |
| bin_bash | yes, but once you start making medical requirements for exit/entry it's a free-for-all | 21:37 |
| stinkpot | ljl you just gave me a prime example of 'strings attached' with that | 21:37 |
| stinkpot | anyways i don't wanna get into details here | 21:37 |
| tinwhiskers | bin_bash: there are already medical requirements for entry | 21:38 |
| bin_bash | not prior to covid | 21:38 |
| tinwhiskers | Yes | 21:38 |
| bin_bash | to enter every country? | 21:38 |
| stinkpot | i was just hoping you would imagine certain potential strings attached with updated ID cards | 21:38 |
| bin_bash | absoilutely not | 21:38 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, "you don't want it there, it isn't there" is not very comforting, though, if the practical result is that if i don't have it there, i don't enter the country. what i am envisioning is a future where this kind of information would be much more aggressively pursued before you can travel, probably not just about COVID, but a number of other health indicators. would you deem i'm wrong in expecting this scenario? | 21:38 |
| stinkpot | nevermind ljl let's drop it | 21:38 |
| tinwhiskers | Of you've been to Africa you need to show your yellow fever vaccination data, for example | 21:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from Ars Technica at 19:35 UTC: Gaming & Culture: Fraggle Rock is back as Apple TV+ quarantine fodder—so here’s our fan-fiction → https://is.gd/8tjo9c | 21:39 |
| tinwhiskers | Countries do require vaccination data now. This is really no different except you can choose to link it to your passport on a case by case basis if you think it would make your life easier. Otherwise you carry separate paperwork where required. I'll take the passport option thanks. | 21:40 |
| bin_bash | tinwhiskers: looks like this is fairly new, when my grandparents were in africa in the 90s it was not a requirement, so i didn't know | 21:40 |
| bin_bash | https://ni.usembassy.gov/message-u-s-citizens-new-requirement-proof-yellow-fever-vaccination-travelers-nicaragua/ | 21:40 |
| LjL | <tinwhiskers> The country in question could say that now but don't ← countries are sovereign. outside of what treaties bind them to, they can do whatever they want in theory. but surely discussion has to hinge on what they do vs what they will do if the situation changes, and on whether the situation has changed to the point they likely will do certain things, which in democracies, also kind of involves whether the people there will want such things. | 21:40 |
| tinwhiskers | Yes, and countries can change those regulations now. That it is linked to your passport doesn't change that | 21:41 |
| bin_bash | sorry i just see a huge difference between a slip of paper you hand border control and an internet database linking that information to your passport | 21:43 |
| tinwhiskers | bin_bash: which is why it would be optional | 21:44 |
| tinwhiskers | Personally, I'd prefer it, which is what LjL was asking | 21:44 |
| bin_bash | I guess I just don't think the US government would make it optional. More likely they'd lump it into your gloabl entry/tsa pre =/ | 21:45 |
| tinwhiskers | That you wouldn't prefer it is also the answerb to that question | 21:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 19:41 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: New York's unemployment system collapses, UK begins human vaccine trials this week → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 21:47 |
| ubLIX | normalisation; in the UK, in some schools, kids need an electronic ID to obtain food from the cafeteria, or to check out books from the library | 21:50 |
| bin_bash | tinwhiskers: sorry, i guess i misunderstood. i thought we were discussing the potential pitfalls. if it's just prefer/not prefer, yeah agreed | 21:50 |
| ubLIX | this is normalising surveillance | 21:50 |
| bin_bash | i would be fine with it if it was totally voluntary across the board and you could either show proof of vaccination with a slip or on your passport | 21:50 |
| ubLIX | imagine growing up unable to conceive of the idea that surveillance can be bad | 21:50 |
| bin_bash | ubLIX: i think early millennials are probably the last to remember that | 21:51 |
| bin_bash | although some people just flat-out do not care. | 21:51 |
| bin_bash | when i was a kid you used cash to buy lunch and a library card to checkout books | 21:51 |
| ecov | dewey decimal 4 lyfe | 21:52 |
| bin_bash | actually in schools you didnt need a card, you just used your name | 21:53 |
| bin_bash | in college we used our student id to checkout books | 21:53 |
| ubLIX | well, the library example is kinda moot, since a database is populated in either case | 21:53 |
| bin_bash | it's kinda necessary | 21:54 |
| bin_bash | to keep track of the books | 21:54 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: States and Hospitals Are Essentially Smuggling PPE Because They’re Afraid the Feds Will Seize It (10501 votes) | https://redd.it/g5fk9p | 21:56 |
| ubLIX | except in so far as use of computerised access tokens normalises the physical practise of networked surveillance | 21:56 |
| ubLIX | who watchers the watchers, etc | 21:58 |
| ubLIX | the root of the problem really is the scaling of power disparity | 21:58 |
| bin_bash | no i mean it's necessary for a library to keep track of books | 21:59 |
| bin_bash | that's just a fact. | 21:59 |
| ubLIX | ofc | 22:00 |
| bin_bash | like i wouldnt consider needing a library card normalizing surveillance, but i agree requiring an id to pay for lunch is | 22:01 |
| bin_bash | you should be able to pay cash | 22:01 |
| tinwhiskers | ubLIX: yes, it does normalise it so we have to be careful to implement systems where the owners of the data retain power, not the owners of the database. | 22:01 |
| ubLIX | bin_bash: was trying for examples of electronic access tokens, where ease of use normalises thoughtlessness as the tech becomes ever more ubiquitous | 22:02 |
| bin_bash | ahh | 22:02 |
| bin_bash | yeah | 22:03 |
| tinwhiskers | Yeah | 22:03 |
| ubLIX | tinwhiskers: fraught with political strife, and those with least power to lose, who most need representation, have least influence on implementations | 22:03 |
| ubLIX | in our world, not a recipe for good ethical balancing | 22:04 |
| tinwhiskers | It is frought. So I take it you'd prefer to carry separate paperwork for the required vaccination records and test records? | 22:04 |
| tinwhiskers | *fraught | 22:05 |
| tinwhiskers | Where I come from you have a vaccination booklet that shows the where and when of your vaccinations and tests | 22:06 |
| ubLIX | tbh, i haven't travelled recently enough (or to relevant places) for vaccination history to be a concern | 22:06 |
| tinwhiskers | I had to have about 5 or 6 vaccinations current to visit since countries in Africa, and also some for Tonga | 22:07 |
| ubLIX | i'm not sure what a good solution would look like | 22:07 |
| tinwhiskers | *some countries | 22:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 19:56 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: Coronavirus live news: global confirmed cases pass 2.5m but Italy sees first significant fall in infections → https://is.gd/iFGkq3 | 22:08 |
| ubLIX | for practical reasons, i'm not sure it would be ultimately sensible for an international vaccination database and a passport database to be separate | 22:09 |
| ubLIX | i haven't travelled since eye-scanning or fingerprinting was a thing, though, so i am quite out of this particular loop | 22:10 |
| ubLIX | in the passport case, the international infrastructure is already there; would we want to replicate that infrastructure just to airgap it from the passport system? | 22:12 |
| tinwhiskers | Yeah. The paper system isn't terribly unwieldy | 22:13 |
| ubLIX | i mean, i would. but that is huge expense. and in the end, end users (countries) could just merge the databases anyway | 22:13 |
| tinwhiskers | True | 22:13 |
| bin_bash | don't forget each country has its own laws about data storage and retention | 22:14 |
| tinwhiskers | Yeah, and not all counties will be able to switch to such a system simultaneously so you're going to need paper records in a lot of cases anyway, depending where you are traveling | 22:15 |
| bin_bash | actually it wouldn't work at all because of that | 22:15 |
| bin_bash | the GDRP wouldn't allow a system like that for European citizens | 22:15 |
| tinwhiskers | It would with their persimmon | 22:15 |
| bin_bash | so basically they wouldn't be able to leave the EU (if this were implemented) | 22:16 |
| tinwhiskers | Permission even | 22:16 |
| bin_bash | no it wouldnt | 22:16 |
| bin_bash | the gdrp doesnt let you jsut opt out | 22:16 |
| tinwhiskers | The gdrp disallows all storage of data? | 22:17 |
| bin_bash | no, it requires you to follow certain requirements in order to store data served to europeans | 22:17 |
| tinwhiskers | And which requirements would make that impossible? | 22:18 |
| bin_bash | you have to have detailed information about how/where the data is stored, how it's retained, etc | 22:18 |
| tinwhiskers | Ok | 22:18 |
| bin_bash | so having the medical records of europeans in a US database would have to meet all gdpr requirements | 22:18 |
| bin_bash | and it wouldn't | 22:18 |
| tinwhiskers | Oh. I see | 22:18 |
| bin_bash | yeah =/ | 22:19 |
| tinwhiskers | So then each country may need to store their own database in a manner that can be consistently queried | 22:20 |
| bin_bash | yeah that might work | 22:20 |
| bin_bash | but the data couldn't be cached locally to the querier | 22:20 |
| bin_bash | but i mean that might be possible actually | 22:20 |
| tinwhiskers | Right | 22:20 |
| bin_bash | actually i kind of like that idea. that way it's not just a free-for-all | 22:21 |
| bin_bash | and especially if it's opt-in | 22:21 |
| ubLIX | each country queries the traveller's originating country's database with the traveller's in-person permission at the point of entry? | 22:22 |
| tinwhiskers | Yeah. However if you are going to have to maintain the capability for a paper system anyway for those who do not wish to have a certain record public it does lose some value | 22:22 |
| tinwhiskers | ubLIX: i was thinking permission was at the other end but your approach may be better | 22:22 |
| pyna | slap a few "blockchain"s in any proposal to sew up inventors | 22:23 |
| tinwhiskers | If you get a yellow fever vaccine you have to tick a box or something with your physician to say that can be linked to the database. If you have an hiv test you might well not want to allow that test to be added | 22:23 |
| ecov | "blockchain in the cloud with the latest AI" | 22:24 |
| bin_bash | yeah here in the US prescriptions are all in a database like that anyway, whether you like it or not. | 22:27 |
| bin_bash | ecov: i dont think you fit enough buzzwords in :P | 22:27 |
| bin_bash | "improve synergy and pivot more easily with blockchain in the cloud, featuring the latest AI and neural nets" | 22:27 |
| ecov | there we go | 22:27 |
| ecov | good ol' synergy | 22:27 |
| bin_bash | lololol | 22:27 |
| ecov | instant collaboration! | 22:28 |
| ecov | https://www.theonion.com/protesters-demand-states-reopen-notice-spike-in-corona-1842984147 | 22:28 |
| mefistofeles | ecov: not the best from the onion : | 22:29 |
| mefistofeles | :P | 22:29 |
| bin_bash | too accurate mefistofeles? | 22:31 |
| ecov | coffee in the mornin' coffee in the evenin' coffee at supper-time! when you have a coffee maker during lockdown you can have coffee any time! | 22:31 |
| bin_bash | but you shouldnt | 22:32 |
| ecov | i really need to scale back my coffee intake | 22:32 |
| mefistofeles | use red bull | 22:32 |
| ecov | too sweet | 22:33 |
| bin_bash | ew dont use red bull | 22:34 |
| mefistofeles | bin_bash: I've been using it lately, shame on me | 22:36 |
| mefistofeles | but I just can't stand that much coffee or hot beverages | 22:36 |
| mefistofeles | and I need the [bad] boost | 22:36 |
| ecov | with all this talk of gov. tracking etc... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzoXQKumgCw&t=1s | 22:36 |
| mefistofeles | %t | 22:37 |
| Brainstorm | mefistofeles: From www.youtube.com: Is The Government Spying On Schizophrenics Enough? - YouTube | 22:37 |
| LjL | While I nervously ate too many sugary things after dinner | 22:37 |
| LjL | Way too many | 22:37 |
| ecov | nervously? | 22:37 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: same here, I'm gaining weight fast, but it won't last, only until I finish this f**king thing | 22:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 20:32 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: New York's unemployment system collapses, UK begins human vaccine trials this week → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 22:38 |
| LjL | ecov: surprised I'm nervous? | 22:38 |
| ecov | LjL: oh yeah you got infected, right? | 22:38 |
| LjL | mefistofeles: not gaining much weight myself somehow, but I suspect it doesn't help anyway | 22:38 |
| LjL | ecov: not that I know of | 22:39 |
| ecov | maybe different user... | 22:39 |
| ecov | LjL: why are you nervous? high risk area? | 22:39 |
| ecov | I'm out of the loop | 22:39 |
| LjL | I'm in Milan | 22:39 |
| ecov | Ahh ok | 22:39 |
| LjL | But also I suspect much of the world is nervous under lockdown and utter uncertainty | 22:39 |
| ecov | I'm still working everyday, outside in the sun, so I'm def. in the minority on here | 22:40 |
| ecov | wish you the best LjL.... | 22:41 |
| bin_bash | i'm allergic to the outside where i am | 22:41 |
| bin_bash | :( | 22:41 |
| ecov | bubble boy? | 22:42 |
| mefistofeles | hah | 22:42 |
| bin_bash | tbh i wish i had a bubble | 22:43 |
| LjL | They want to start reopening Lombardy on May 4, same as the rest of Italy... Without seemingly having much of a plan on how to do it. It seems a little early given the time it usually takes them to put their "plans" on paper | 22:43 |
| ecov | compromised immune system or social anxiety | 22:43 |
| ecov | ? | 22:44 |
| bin_bash | like one of these things but not shitty https://www.amazon.com/Qiyun-Inflatable-Zorbing-Human-Hamster/dp/B0181XUVG0 | 22:44 |
| bin_bash | ecov: oh just allergies | 22:44 |
| bin_bash | literally allergies | 22:44 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: the plan is doing what others are already doing, I guess | 22:44 |
| ecov | bin_bash: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SULQSL4Cd0 | 22:44 |
| mefistofeles | and changing the things that aren't working, if any | 22:45 |
| bin_bash | hahahahahaha | 22:45 |
| bin_bash | i forgot aboput this one | 22:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 20:38 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: Director of US agency key to helming vaccine development leaves role suddenly → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 22:45 |
| LjL | mefistofeles: copying and pasting something at random won't produce great results I fear | 22:45 |
| bin_bash | i just cant face him ecov | 22:46 |
| ecov | lol | 22:46 |
| bin_bash | LOL "that's one of the things we fight about" | 22:47 |
| bin_bash | oh god | 22:47 |
| bin_bash | i forgot about this epsiode | 22:47 |
| bin_bash | thank you ecov | 22:47 |
| ecov | :D | 22:47 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: yeah, but I don't think there's enough time to really tailor something that's optimized for the country | 22:47 |
| bin_bash | THE MOOPS | 22:48 |
| ecov | bin_bash: lets play trivial pursuit lmao | 22:48 |
| bin_bash | it's moops, ecov | 22:49 |
| bin_bash | moops | 22:49 |
| LjL | Then they should not reopen. It shouldn't even be tailored to the country, but to the region, and to Milan. The situation in Lombardy which is the most dense region in the country as well as the hardest hit is completely different and can't be treated the same | 22:49 |
| LjL | Lombardy, out of 20 regions of Italy, has around 10 million people out of the 60 in the country, most of which in the Milan metro area | 22:50 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: oh yeah, it would be different for that regon for sure | 22:51 |
| mefistofeles | as other countries do for the hardest hit regions | 22:51 |
| mefistofeles | but I don't really see why the plan many are implementing shouldn't work for Italy | 22:51 |
| mefistofeles | specially the ones that didn't supress it, like Germany, France or similar | 22:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 20:47 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: FDA greenlights first test with at-home sample, Trump draft order requires more from tech visa workers → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 22:52 |
| LjL | What plan is it? How will the Milan Metro work? How do you get all the commuters to Milan without filling the trains, like before, in a way that most certainly doesn't guarantee the 1m distancing (even assuming that is meaningful)? | 22:53 |
| LjL | Germany never locked down in the way Italy did in the first place, work is still largely ongoing | 22:53 |
| LjL | %cases Lombardy | 22:54 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: In Lombardy, Italy, there are 66971 cases (0.7% of the population) and 12376 deaths (18.5% of cases) as of 4 minutes ago. 196302 tests were performed (34.1% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Lombardy for time series data. | 22:54 |
| LjL | %cases Germany | 22:54 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: In all areas, Germany, there are 147235 cases (0.2% of the population) and 4863 deaths (3.3% of cases) as of 4 minutes ago. 1.7 million tests were performed (8.5% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.1% (assuming deaths/cases with ⅔ undetected), and less than 5.1% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Germany for time series data. | 22:54 |
| Arsanerit | %cases saaremaa | 22:59 |
| Brainstorm | Arsanerit: Sorry, saaremaa not found. Either there aren't cases, or it's under a different name. | 22:59 |
| Arsanerit | %cases Ösel | 22:59 |
| Brainstorm | Arsanerit: Sorry, Ösel not found. Either there aren't cases, or it's under a different name. | 22:59 |
| Arsanerit | https://www.businessinsider.my/estonia-island-saaremaa-covid-19-hotspot-2020-4 | 22:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 20:50 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: FDA greenlights first test with at-home sample, Trump draft order requires immigration curbs → https://is.gd/aenSY0 | 23:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 21:01 UTC: (news): United shares drop after company announces fresh stock offering as coronavirus saps revenue → https://is.gd/F3qrSv | 23:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 21:10 UTC: Watch live: Coronavirus task force holds briefing as Senate passes bill for additional relief: Members of the coronavirus task force are expected to hold a press briefing Tuesday as officials across the federal, state and local levels rally to provide economic relief to Americans while also curbing the spread of the virus. → https://is.gd/bll6Ug | 23:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 21:17 UTC: (news): United shares drop after company announces fresh stock offering as coronavirus drives travel demand to 'essentially zero' → https://is.gd/F3qrSv | 23:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews Live* at 21:40 UTC: /u/slakmehl: Today set a new single-day high in US deaths at 2,674 . Tuesdays frequently have the highest counts of the week as the weekend backlog is cleared, but it remains significant that this is a new high even among Tuesdays. → https://is.gd/iA7BQy | 23:43 |
| pyna | its never good when a tuesday is especially tuesday | 23:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews Live* at 21:47 UTC: /u/slakmehl: NPR Choice page → https://is.gd/6OSmMa | 23:50 |
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