| ryouma | zinc lozenges no longer thought useful? "A widely circulated social media post in the early days of the pandemic suggested that zinc lozenges could kill or protect against the coronavirus. However, "in reality, it doesn't have any effect," said Fauci." | 00:13 |
|---|---|---|
| LjL | i never "thought" them useful. maybe not actively harmful, but i always remember the thing where without something to help bring them inside cells, they would have no particular antiviral activity. | 00:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Politics: Rick Bright, Trump administration vaccine expert turned whistleblower, resigns NIH post → https://is.gd/jSqbSQ | 00:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: HHS threatens to withhold federal funding from hospitals that fail to report coronavirus data: Dr. Deborah Birx, the White House coronavirus task force coordinator, emphasized that the data is "really critical" to guide the U.S. response to the pandemic. → https://is.gd/rSicEl | 00:26 |
| Arsanerit | goodnight | 00:27 |
| LjL | night | 00:27 |
| LjL | thinking about the repeatedly cropping up complaints about the bot news | 00:29 |
| LjL | if i've done my grepping correctly, these are the most common news sources since August https://paste.ee/p/tROCU | 00:29 |
| LjL | there are a number more sources but they come up less frequently, and my thinking is, let's weed out from the big ones as if there's anything there, it's going to be big | 00:30 |
| LjL | so looking at those, not asking for a show of hand since half the channel will be sleeping, but, any opinions on my opinions? r/Coronavirus may be a little too prominent but i'm kind of interested in seeing it, tell me if you think differently. CNBC Health seems kind of low quality to me, and we could try removing it. Medical Xpress i'd keep for now, it's relatively new and i have not formed an opinion. Guardian is already gone, too spammy. BBC Health i'd | 00:33 |
| LjL | keep. r/worldnews should hopefully only show up when there's something reasonably big, but tell me if you've noticed otherwise. Indian Express, maybe we can leave the "(Health)" section only, and ditch the main, which may have a lot of India-specific news. StatNews, BMJ and also ArsTechnica i think i'd definitely keep. | 00:33 |
| LjL | tl;dr i'd try removing CNBC Health and Indian Express and see if we miss them | 00:33 |
| OldFaithful | I thought r/worldnews got taken over | 00:34 |
| LjL | i'm not sure i know what you mean, but i object to many articles being taken down by the moderation using what to me appear as excuses. still, it's a major source of news that has an RSS feed, which is apparently a lot to ask these days | 00:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): Rick Bright, Trump administration vaccine expert turned whistleblower, resigns NIH post → https://is.gd/4zQROK | 00:37 |
| tinwhiskers | LjL: I think the sources are OK myself. It would be nice to somehow cut the repeats down but I understand they are not making life easy for you in that regard. | 00:38 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, trust me i've tried | 00:39 |
| LjL | have you seen many lately? i hoped since adding id checking, they'd go down a bit | 00:39 |
| LjL | CNBC was particularly bad in that regard, but they do publish ids | 00:39 |
| tinwhiskers | I haven't really paid much attention recently tbh | 00:39 |
| LjL | oh then there's also CoronaBot which i haven't considered at all, like, r/covid19 is barely covered by Brainstorm but often covered by CoronaBot. i think that one needs to stay, but i'm just saying | 00:40 |
| tinwhiskers | looking back at the recent history the repeats do seem to be under control now | 00:41 |
| ryouma | bbc something or other posted the same article a billion times | 00:41 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, you know, i'm just drawing from experience like, when my messy hard drive is full (always), the efficient thing to do to free it up a little is to look at what the biggest files are, and that's going to be about half of the bulk, the other half is going to be so many small files that it's futile to waste time sorting through them. so i'm looking at what posts the most | 00:42 |
| LjL | ryouma, i'll have a grep at that then | 00:42 |
| LjL | maybe they don't have IDs | 00:42 |
| ryouma | you really just want quality but htat takes time to evaluate | 00:43 |
| LjL | ryouma, but still i can leverage the fact some sources are just generally higher quality than others | 00:44 |
| LjL | anyway, you're probably referring to when the BBC said there were >10000 cases unaccounted for that were added the other day? | 00:44 |
| ryouma | yeah 14k or something that were missed probalby the excel thing | 00:45 |
| LjL | i think it was posted 4 times, but really it was two different articles (or at least very different headlines), each of which was posted twice. in one, there was a small difference (the bot should have ignored it, not sure why it didn't), the others were just identical (that shouldn't happen, unless the bot happens to get restarted in between them) | 00:45 |
| LjL | i think it feels like a lot, and i mean, 4 times the same thing is a lot, but it's not a million... it also feels like a lot because there's a lot of other stuff that gets posted | 00:46 |
| ryouma | well that's a billion give or take | 00:46 |
| LjL | heh | 00:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from WebMD: Expert: White House a ‘Super Spreader’ Site: With the coronavirus spreading through the top levels of his campaign and administration, fears for what comes next in U.S. government grow. → https://is.gd/xDWt3o | 00:47 |
| LjL | i flipped out the other day, because when people who never really speak here start complaining about how the bot is posting too much stuff or stuff that's bad, well, maybe they should try spending a bit of time in the channel first. but at the same time, i want a news bot, but i also want the active people in the channel to find it a reasonable amount/quality | 00:48 |
| LjL | case in point: i added WebMD recently, i don't really know if what it posts is mostly going to be about US campaign etc, i'd rather it not be | 00:48 |
| tinwhiskers | It does cause a bit of a "crying wolf" effect. I see activity here and check it out, only to mostly find news and not discussion (##coronavirus is almost entirely discussion) so consequently I check on activity here far less often. | 00:50 |
| tinwhiskers | however, the news is good too, so I'm not suggesting you don't do it; just sayin'. | 00:52 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, yes, i had that feeling too. on Matrix you can set things so you're not highlighted, or less highlighted, by bots, but that's because bots are supposed (the Matrix equivalent of) NOTICEs. if i do that here though, a lot of IRC users will complain because *even though* NOTICE was supposed to be the thing for that on IRC as well, in practice it makes many client show "weird stuff" | 00:52 |
| tinwhiskers | ah | 00:52 |
| LjL | the BBC problem may be, uh, perhaps solved, by the fact than unless i'm blind/stupid, https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/news/health/rss.xml is now a 404...? O.O | 00:53 |
| LjL | (that's the feed that Brainstorm has in it) | 00:53 |
| tinwhiskers | heh | 00:53 |
| tinwhiskers | that should do it | 00:53 |
| LjL | check for me though please, maybe they've banned me or something | 00:53 |
| tinwhiskers | 404 | 00:54 |
| LjL | i double-checked with Python and i get 404 there too | 00:54 |
| LjL | ah | 00:54 |
| LjL | thanks | 00:54 |
| LjL | i guess RSS is becoming even less popular | 00:54 |
| LjL | looks like everything listed at https://www.bbc.com/news/10628494 is a 404 | 00:55 |
| LjL | no, not all | 00:55 |
| LjL | ugh. some work but only if you *don't* use https | 00:56 |
| LjL | pfft | 00:57 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for World: +10204 cases (now 36.1 million), +250 deaths (now 1.1 million) since an hour ago — Colombia: +7650 cases (now 869808), +173 deaths (now 27017) since 23 hours ago — Norway: +115 cases (now 14784) since 6 hours ago — US: +1672 cases (now 7.7 million), +60 deaths (now 215701) since an hour ago | 01:08 |
| LjL | usual NYT caveat for me ("haven't read the article") but this sounds like important news, before the WH had blocked the FDA on this, i think: <CarlSagan> [NYT - Science] In Reversal, White House Approves Stricter Guidelines for Vaccine Makers https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/06/health/covid-vaccine-guidelines.html 2020-10-06T22:22:48 | 01:20 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Czechia: +2846 cases (now 90022), +5 deaths (now 794) since 7 hours ago — Guadeloupe: +791 cases (now 6319), +20 deaths (now 77) since 6 days ago — World: +4568 cases (now 36.1 million), +34 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 24 minutes ago — US: +931 cases (now 7.7 million), +9 deaths (now 215710) since 24 minutes ago | 01:23 |
| LjL | %wa population of czechia | 01:23 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Wolfram|Alpha (Czech Republic | population): Result: 10.7 million people (world rank: 86th) (2019 estimate) → https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=population+of+czechia | 01:23 |
| LjL | yikes? | 01:24 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Argentina: +14740 cases (now 824468), +359 deaths (now 21827) since 18 hours ago — World: +17985 cases (now 36.1 million), +447 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 34 minutes ago — Brazil: +1812 cases (now 5.0 million), +77 deaths (now 147571) since 2 hours ago — US: +1422 cases (now 7.7 million), +11 deaths (now 215721) since 34 minutes ago | 01:53 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: Restaurant staffers in quarantine after working Τrump fundraiser (10140 votes) | https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-covid-19-restaurant-workers-quarantine-after-fundraiser/ | https://redd.it/j65vpw | 02:03 |
| CheRRy2fly21 | Hi | 02:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: FDA releases high coronavirus vaccine standards despite White House resistance → https://is.gd/HFQsfo | 02:20 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Martinique: +308 cases (now 1851), +1 deaths (now 22) since 6 days ago — World: +4222 cases (now 36.1 million), +106 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 35 minutes ago — Peru: +2930 cases (now 832929), +80 deaths (now 32914) since a day ago — Paraguay: +932 cases (now 45647), +19 deaths (now 966) since 19 hours ago | 02:23 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, i guess for the "crying wolf effect", it wouldn't help much to reduce, even substantially, the amount of news the bot posts, would it? unless it would just post news *very rarely*, then somewhat regular news postings would still mean that when you see a highlight, you may very well be expecting conversation but not find it | 02:29 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah. it's just the nature of having bot postings I guess. | 02:32 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, i'm really mulling over the idea of making them NOTICEs and getting yelled at and responding by pointing to the RFC which says that's how to use them | 02:33 |
| LjL | on *my* client at least, that'd cause very different-looking highlights | 02:33 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah, I've seen that go down before. | 02:33 |
| LjL | or otherwise people sometimes say "just have a channel for news", but for me at least, it doesn't work that way. i end up not reading that channel, mostly. | 02:34 |
| LjL | heh | 02:34 |
| tinwhiskers | heh | 02:35 |
| Hail_Satan | so should we talk about news here then? | 02:35 |
| tinwhiskers | umm, yeah. You may drive people away | 02:35 |
| LjL | on my client the main thing is it looks pretty ugly, i see -tinwhiskers/##covid-19- as the sender and it's misaligned with the usual, uh, alignment | 02:35 |
| LjL | Hail_Satan, no that's not the thing | 02:35 |
| tinwhiskers | it looks lovely in my client | 02:35 |
| tinwhiskers | Hail_Satan: but, yes, you may | 02:35 |
| LjL | i'm discussing whether the bot posts too many news, or whether the fact it posts news at all discourages people from looking at the channel, basically | 02:35 |
| LjL | err sure, you may, just it's not the thing you necessarily *should* do | 02:36 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, on the plus side, the Matrix side (not saying that's the "plus" side though!) will love it, since that's what they expect | 02:36 |
| tinwhiskers | I wonder how upset people will be. | 02:37 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, there's so little chat in this channel these days, that i'm not entirely unwilling to disrupt the little that's left by trying... | 02:37 |
| tinwhiskers | you could see how it goes down | 02:37 |
| tinwhiskers | (cold sick comes to mind) | 02:37 |
| ryouma | what does it mean for irc | 02:38 |
| ryouma | idk if my irc client has the ability to not say there is activity when there is with certain senders; in principle it is hackable in just a few minutes but i don't have it in me to do so. for other clients idk if it is settable at all | 02:39 |
| LjL | ryouma, when tinwhiskers said "test", that was a notice instead of a regular message | 02:39 |
| ryouma | but you seem to be talking about a feature of matrix or irc or both | 02:39 |
| LjL | so, whatever that means for your client | 02:39 |
| ryouma | can you send me one now? and then in 60s when i have gone off and read a different channel? | 02:40 |
| LjL | yes people could probably put Brainstorm in a list of do-not-highlight-me in their clients but honestly i can't expect them to do that for every channel that has bots instead of just eventually leaving or stopping checking the channel | 02:40 |
| ryouma | other bots are not news bots typically | 02:40 |
| ryouma | they are activated by a human, so you feel your anthropological need met | 02:41 |
| ryouma | it looks the same except - not <> | 02:41 |
| LjL | ##science has a news bot, and there's regularly fuss about it | 02:41 |
| Hail_Satan | "humans" | 02:41 |
| ryouma | or russian bot agents, whatever | 02:41 |
| ryouma | ok i am switching channels now | 02:41 |
| LjL | even though it's also pretty much the only thing that happens in ##science, but detractors could say, the bot is precisely why | 02:41 |
| LjL | what i cannot stand is when someone who has never used the channel, never spoke, starts making a tirade about how disruptive the bot is, "nothing else in the channel, just bot" | 02:42 |
| LjL | well maybe say something! (that is not complaining about the bot) | 02:42 |
| LjL | but i do recognize the thing tinwhiskers says, that you end up not even clicking on the channel because you half-know it's going to be a bot message that you don't care about | 02:42 |
| ryouma | idk you might be overthinking it | 02:42 |
| LjL | ryouma, sorry, switch again | 02:43 |
| ryouma | ok | 02:43 |
| ryouma | nope i got notified that htere is activity :( | 02:43 |
| ryouma | so it is just like a normal message in rcirc | 02:43 |
| LjL | ryouma, i don't know if i'm overthinking it, this channel really has gone silent lately, and i've had multiple people complain about the bot in various ways. in some cases i snapped because i thought they weren't doing nearly enough to make the channel a useful place to have a right to start complaining about the bot - but at the same time that doesn't mean they're completely wrong | 02:44 |
| LjL | ryouma, i also get notified, however, it's a different color than when there's a message. it's the same color as when there's a nick change, or a join, or part, or topic change | 02:44 |
| LjL | it's typically a less prominent color than for messages | 02:44 |
| LjL | but... it's irc, each client is different | 02:45 |
| g2` | The notices brought here | 02:45 |
| g2` | Congrats LjL | 02:45 |
| g2` | What's up | 02:46 |
| LjL | ... and then there's those clients where for some strange reason they are *more* prominent than messages, or even show up in the wrong channel/tab | 02:46 |
| ryouma | my mode line notifies me. if thre is activity, it shows up one color; if it mentions a keyword i have set, it shows up slightly brighter; if it mentions me, then reverse video (i can set the fonts fo all three). your notify thing was the same as any ordinary activity. | 02:46 |
| tinwhiskers | lol. like g2`'s client :-) | 02:46 |
| ryouma | joins and parts and stuff i ignore completely | 02:46 |
| g2` | Mine shows up in active window | 02:46 |
| ryouma | that is they do not show up | 02:46 |
| ryouma | i am talking abou thte mode line in emacs | 02:46 |
| LjL | g2`, basically we're (or i am, with others unconvinced) trying to figure out way to make the bot here that posts news less intrusive for some (but apparently, more intrusive for others) | 02:47 |
| LjL | but showing the notice in the current window is really bad | 02:47 |
| LjL | clients shouldn't do that :\ | 02:47 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah, that really sucks. | 02:47 |
| tinwhiskers | g2`: what client? | 02:48 |
| tinwhiskers | ah, Android IRC client | 02:48 |
| tinwhiskers | is anyone else currently watching that got that notice despite not having ##covid-19 as the active window? | 02:50 |
| ryouma | hmm i found (defvar rcirc-responses-no-activity '("305" "306") and (defun rcirc-handler-NOTICE (process sender args text) so maybe it is possible | 02:50 |
| ryouma | dunno what those numbers are | 02:50 |
| g2` | AndroIRC | 02:50 |
| tinwhiskers | thanks | 02:50 |
| ryouma | anyway changing the bot to use notice does no harm in my case | 02:50 |
| ryouma | just doesn't do any good unless my client can be told to ignore it | 02:51 |
| tinwhiskers | well, that would be *mighty* annoying getting a notice in whatever channel you're in every time Brainstorm posts a news item. | 02:51 |
| g2` | I thought that was the point of notices | 02:51 |
| tinwhiskers | You'd rightfully expect people to leave | 02:51 |
| ryouma | you get it /in channel/? | 02:51 |
| tinwhiskers | g2`: not according to the spec | 02:51 |
| g2` | I believe mIRC does that too | 02:52 |
| ryouma | i.e. in a different channel, in the text, with the other text in that channel? like an announcment across all of freenode? | 02:52 |
| tinwhiskers | It should only raise the notice in the channel the notice is sent to, not your active window | 02:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Covid-19 neurological symptoms emerge in most hospitalized patients, study says → https://is.gd/wnAASO | 02:52 |
| tinwhiskers | g2`: bummer :-( | 02:52 |
| g2` | I always thought that was the point | 02:52 |
| ryouma | another brainstorm for brainstorm (dunno if i'd want it) is to have it bunch up its messages | 02:53 |
| tinwhiskers | g2`: lots of people think that but the spec says otherwise | 02:53 |
| tinwhiskers | *RFC | 02:53 |
| LjL | g2`, the point of notices according to the original spec is for them to be used by bots, mainly, the thought was i think, so that you wouldn't have "bot loops" where a bot would start responding to another bot | 02:53 |
| LjL | if bots only listen to PRIVMSG and never to NOTICE, then that can't happen | 02:53 |
| LjL | that's the only thing that the RFC says about NOTICEs basically. it doesn't mention how they should be displayed, but the implication is that it's the same as a PRIVMSG in other respects | 02:54 |
| tinwhiskers | we're doomed. DOOMED | 02:54 |
| LjL | /DOOM tinwhiskers | 02:54 |
| LjL | anyway, i'm probably not going to pretend that the spec hasn't largely been ignored by clients | 02:55 |
| LjL | which means my solution in search of a problem is still in search of a solution :\ | 02:55 |
| g2` | Was thinking in terms of selfish user reasons :P | 02:56 |
| ryouma | if it annoys you it likely annoys a lot of users | 02:56 |
| LjL | uhm, my Android client (Revolution IRC) handles it somewhat decently, although they are more prominent than regular messages, which should be the other way around | 02:58 |
| LjL | they aren't handled as nick highlights at least, which is the other very bad possibility | 02:58 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, another thing is the Matrix persona of my bot got a temporary k-line from sigyn the other day, the reason being sending channel NOTICEs. probably wouldn't have happened if it had been only one, but the Matrix bridge turns long messages into multiple messages on IRC, so... | 03:01 |
| LjL | now it's been exempted for the channel involved, and we don't have sigyn here anyway, but, i mean, if even freenode bots treat NOTICEs as a threat... | 03:01 |
| Hail_Satan | askem | 03:02 |
| Hail_Satan | ive been doing mass ctcps all day in rate limited scripts | 03:02 |
| LjL | you're the one who was asking earlier about why large channels didn't respond to VERSION? | 03:03 |
| LjL | a mass CTCP here would get you banned if i notice it, just fyi | 03:03 |
| Hail_Satan | well this isn't a political disinfo channel, so why would I do that here | 03:06 |
| LjL | i don't know | 03:07 |
| LjL | i didn't know why you were doing it elsewhere either | 03:07 |
| Hail_Satan | ##truth and the 2A channel, both disinfo spreaders on network. Consider it virus containment to identify them. | 03:08 |
| LjL | are they stupid enough to respond with VERSION as "i'm a spreader of misinformation, version 0.2b"? | 03:08 |
| LjL | to* | 03:08 |
| ryouma | is it true that the future of the world and of the us in particular is controlled by a single anonymous tweeter? | 03:08 |
| Hail_Satan | no, those are the outlets where the little fascists get their marching orders, or gain new followers from techbros who dont have sophisticated worldviews | 03:09 |
| ryouma | what are? | 03:10 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Recent endemic coronavirus infection is associated with less severe COVID-19 (81 votes) | https://www.jci.org/articles/view/143380 | https://redd.it/j6ca8q | 03:10 |
| LjL | ryouma, those places/channels, although i don't know what 2A is | 03:10 |
| ryouma | gun rights | 03:10 |
| LjL | oh | 03:10 |
| ryouma | second amendment | 03:10 |
| Hail_Satan | list the channels, you'll see it | 03:10 |
| Hail_Satan | theres also ##conspiracy | 03:11 |
| LjL | didn't expect it to be literally "2A" in it, i thought that was some shortened version of something | 03:11 |
| Hail_Satan | lots of little enclaves which could be russians or rednecks. either way, nuken em | 03:11 |
| ryouma | but somebody controls the anonymous tweeter account no? | 03:11 |
| LjL | anyway these things could get me crazy if i tried to understand all the relationships between them | 03:11 |
| LjL | i guess i prefer to just keep reading preprints, even though they get me slightly crazy too | 03:12 |
| Hail_Satan | when my code doesn't work, I find nazis online | 03:12 |
| Hail_Satan | when I get bored picking with nazis, I go back to work | 03:12 |
| Hail_Satan | so hope that answers your questions | 03:12 |
| ryouma | there was a time no more than 6y ago when those things were so fringe that they did not matter | 03:12 |
| ryouma | just not a factor in us politics | 03:13 |
| Hail_Satan | yeah lets see what happened in 2014 | 03:13 |
| Hail_Satan | or, not; ops here might get mad at offtopic | 03:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: There are no active community coronavirus cases left in New Zealand, the Ministry of Health has revealed → https://is.gd/uPpfiB | 03:13 |
| Hail_Satan | FIST PUMPS FOR NZ!!! | 03:14 |
| Hail_Satan | yay | 03:14 |
| Hail_Satan | good governance | 03:14 |
| ryouma | %cases tw | 03:14 |
| Brainstorm | ryouma: Sorry, tw not found. Either there aren't cases, or it's under a different name. | 03:14 |
| ryouma | %cases taiwan | 03:14 |
| Brainstorm | ryouma: In Taiwan, there have been 521 confirmed cases (0.0% of the population) and 7 deaths (1.3% of cases) as of 15 hours ago. 181922 tests were performed (0.3% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Taiwan for time series data. | 03:14 |
| ryouma | %cases vietnam | 03:14 |
| Brainstorm | ryouma: In Vietnam, there have been 1098 confirmed cases (0.0% of the population) and 35 deaths (3.2% of cases) as of 12 hours ago. 1.2 million tests were performed (0.1% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Vietnam for time series data. | 03:14 |
| ryouma | %cases thailand | 03:14 |
| de-facto | %cases Japan | 03:14 |
| Brainstorm | ryouma: In Thailand, there have been 3600 confirmed cases (0.0% of the population) and 59 deaths (1.6% of cases) as of 20 hours ago. 855400 tests were performed (0.4% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Thailand for time series data. | 03:14 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: In Japan, there have been 86085 confirmed cases (0.1% of the population) and 1603 deaths (1.9% of cases) as of 54 minutes ago. 2.2 million tests were performed (3.8% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Japan for time series data. | 03:14 |
| ryouma | so japan is a bunch worse | 03:15 |
| LjL | oh that reminds me of something rather ridiculous of a library i'm using... i *wanted* to allow things like "TW" (althoguh Taiwan may not have an official two-letter abbreviation because of idiotic reasons), and i thought i could do that using a Python library i'm already using, except, turns out that lets me give it a full name and obtain an abbreviation, but NOT the other way around | 03:15 |
| ryouma | %cases .tw | 03:15 |
| LjL | Japan is not great but you have to look at the curve | 03:15 |
| Brainstorm | ryouma: Sorry, .tw not found. Either there aren't cases, or it's under a different name. | 03:15 |
| LjL | ryouma, no it doesn't work | 03:15 |
| LjL | i'm saying i wanted to make it work but then i had to give up because the library i hoped to use wouldn't do that | 03:15 |
| LjL | (of course i could just find another, but i didn't feel like adding yet another library just for this) | 03:16 |
| de-facto | Japan brought it down from ~1500 to ~500, didnt read of any lockdown there | 03:16 |
| ryouma | then you will go off and do latitudes | 03:16 |
| LjL | ryouma, much of that is already in the bot due to all the earthquake stuff it does | 03:17 |
| ryouma | hokkaido was locked down early. they had russian and chinese tourists. | 03:17 |
| LjL | ryouma, like for instance, if i give it a latitude and longitude, it can tell me what the languages most spoken there are | 03:17 |
| LjL | ryouma, and US army personnel who got infected and they got mad at | 03:17 |
| LjL | %geo (45, 10) | 03:17 |
| ryouma | i meant %cases tropic-of-capricorn-and-15-degrees-distant-from-it | 03:17 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Location not found for (45, 10). | 03:18 |
| de-facto | I think its because the epidemiologists and government in Japan target clusters right from begin, they can achieve R<1 even without lockdown | 03:18 |
| LjL | ryouma, yeah, i can't do that because the data for that just doesn't exist :P | 03:18 |
| LjL | lucky when we have decent regional data | 03:19 |
| ryouma | it would help with second wave of course. follow canada to northern us states etc. or nordic down to sicily | 03:19 |
| LjL | de-facto, but if you look at the curve, it did go exponential twice. the second time much worse than the first. it's just, the magnitude of the whole thing was much less than in europe | 03:19 |
| LjL | but look at the second spike in Japan and imagine being in the middle of it and see those numbers grow that way | 03:19 |
| LjL | you wouldn't be thinking "whew, we have it under control" | 03:20 |
| de-facto | yes maybe because they did allow for superspread again, hence got a second wave? | 03:20 |
| de-facto | i dont know that though, but afair there was something written about nightclubs etc | 03:20 |
| LjL | i still remember in Italy, we started seriously freaking out (in my family at least) when we reached 7000 and passed South Korea, which we thought was faring badly | 03:20 |
| LjL | Japan passed 70000 | 03:20 |
| LjL | now the idea of 7000 being a lot can make us laugh (or maybe not, just go "what?!") but it really didn't at that point | 03:21 |
| ryouma | i don't really get the rules there. supposedly technically they can't lock you down and can only request it. but hokkaido was completely locked down. it could be that they follow rules very very well. | 03:21 |
| de-facto | there are 126M ppl in .jp though | 03:21 |
| LjL | de-facto, okay, but that's only about twice as italy. make it 14000 then, not much difference | 03:22 |
| de-facto | yeah 7000 thats three days in Madrid | 03:22 |
| ryouma | i was just saying compared to tw vn th japan was worse | 03:22 |
| ryouma | dunno the populations though | 03:23 |
| LjL | well the bot knows the population, so you can just look at the percentage it gives | 03:23 |
| ryouma | %population taiwan | 03:23 |
| LjL | although i see those are "0.0%" for a couple of them. i didn't add two decimals because in Europe and the US, there is no need for two ;( | 03:23 |
| LjL | ryouma, i meant just using %cases | 03:24 |
| ryouma | %cases us | 03:24 |
| Brainstorm | ryouma: In US, there have been 7.7 million confirmed cases (2.3% of the population) and 215780 deaths (2.8% of cases) as of 5 minutes ago. 112.4 million tests were performed (6.9% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.0% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 4.2% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data. | 03:24 |
| LjL | although you can also invoke wolfram alpha if desired | 03:24 |
| LjL | %wa population of taiwan | 03:24 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Wolfram|Alpha (Taiwan (Chinese Taipei) | population): Result: 23.8 million people (world rank: 56th) (2019 estimate) → https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=population+of+taiwan | 03:24 |
| LjL | wolfram alpha is quirky though, sometimes it's slow or won't respond at all | 03:24 |
| de-facto | %wa Hello | 03:28 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto, Wolfram|Alpha (Hello.): Response: Hello, human. → https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Hello | 03:28 |
| de-facto | %wa Are you self aware? | 03:28 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto, Wolfram|Alpha (Are you...): Response: I am capable of universal computation; that I can say. → https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Are+you+self+aware%3F | 03:28 |
| de-facto | quite responsive :P | 03:29 |
| LjL | except when i actually need it to tell me stuff, apparently ;( | 03:30 |
| ryouma | what on earth is that? | 03:30 |
| LjL | you must have heard of wolfram alpha before | 03:30 |
| ryouma | yes | 03:30 |
| LjL | %wik Wolfram Alpha | 03:30 |
| Brainstorm | TypeError: argument of type 'NoneType' is not iterable (file "/home/brainstorm/brainstorm/bot/natlang.py", line 362, in langcode) | 03:30 |
| LjL | oh lord i broke this too | 03:31 |
| LjL | ryouma, it's just "easter egg" questions | 03:31 |
| ryouma | %wa tellus what this type of computation you refer to is | 03:31 |
| ryouma | i know | 03:31 |
| de-facto | :)) | 03:31 |
| LjL | sorry, i just killed the bot :P | 03:31 |
| ryouma | %wa unladen sparrow | 03:31 |
| de-facto | aae | 03:31 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: Do as you wish! | 03:32 |
| ryouma | %wa waht is rachitis | 03:33 |
| de-facto | LMAO | 03:33 |
| LjL | that's not very nice | 03:33 |
| Brainstorm | ryouma, Wolfram|Alpha (rachitis (English word)): Definitions: 1 | noun | inflammation of the vertebral column 2 | noun | childhood disease caused by deficiency of vitamin D and sunlight associated with impaired metabolism of calcium and phosphorus → https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=waht+is+rachitis | 03:33 |
| LjL | (whatever it is, indeed) | 03:33 |
| ryouma | %wa difference between rachitis and rickets | 03:33 |
| LjL | eh the etymology is probably the same | 03:34 |
| Brainstorm | ryouma, failed to get any hits! | 03:34 |
| LjL | latter ending up being common language term for it | 03:34 |
| LjL | %w rickets | 03:34 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, rickets — noun: 1. (pathology) A disorder of infancy and early childhood caused by a deficiency of vitamin D, causing soft bones → https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rickets | 03:34 |
| LjL | uhm "See rachitis, but the medical name was chosen purposefully by English physician Daniel Whistler from phonetic similarity to rickets. " | 03:34 |
| LjL | the etymology of rickets is unknown | 03:35 |
| LjL | anyway, they mean the same | 03:35 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Missouri, US: +3009 cases (now 141441), +42 deaths (now 2349) since a day ago — World: +6257 cases (now 36.2 million), +112 deaths (now 1.1 million) since an hour ago — US: +4885 cases (now 7.7 million), +95 deaths (now 215822) since an hour ago — France: +2784 cases (now 647066) since 6 hours ago | 03:37 |
| ryouma | %cases dc | 03:37 |
| Brainstorm | ryouma: In District of Columbia, US, there have been 15547 confirmed cases (2.3% of the population) and 631 deaths (4.1% of cases) as of 20 hours ago. Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.4% (assuming deaths/cases with ⅔ undetected) and less than 5.9% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=District%20of%20Columbia for time series data. | 03:37 |
| de-facto | %cases wh | 03:38 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: Sorry, wh not found. Either there aren't cases, or it's under a different name. | 03:38 |
| de-facto | aaw | 03:38 |
| ryouma | %w number of pages in a new kind of science or whatever that book was | 03:39 |
| Brainstorm | ryouma, I haven't loaded the spellchecker yet, I'll tell you in a minute! | 03:39 |
| Brainstorm | ryouma, English spelling suggestions: number of pages in a new kind of science or whatever that book was (*) | 03:39 |
| ryouma | where was the error? | 03:39 |
| ryouma | none | 03:40 |
| ryouma | %wa number of pages in a new kind of science | 03:41 |
| Brainstorm | ryouma, failed to get any hits! | 03:41 |
| de-facto | ok correction Madrid had 1690 daily cases hence 7000 would be ~4 days | 03:48 |
| de-facto | still crazy | 03:48 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for World: +4991 cases (now 36.2 million), +478 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 19 minutes ago — Mexico: +4828 cases (now 794608), +471 deaths (now 82348) since 20 hours ago — Belize: +39 cases (now 2243), +4 deaths (now 34) since 18 hours ago — New Zealand: +3 cases (now 1861) since 20 hours ago | 03:52 |
| de-facto | imho they should close all the bars and locations where people would meet for the whole of the winter | 03:55 |
| de-facto | no party time even when numbers look better again | 03:55 |
| jacklsw | malaysia went on to have a state election last 2 weeks | 03:56 |
| jacklsw | now the numbers are increasing >.< | 03:57 |
| LjL | hmm we had an election on september 20. but i think the numbers had already started increasing | 03:58 |
| LjL | you know the thing i hated the most about that election? (which, fortunately, i only came to learn later) | 03:58 |
| LjL | you were supposed to take your mask off briefly in front of the polling station president for identification | 03:58 |
| de-facto | jacklsw, wow thats a steep curve in Malaysia there | 03:59 |
| LjL | briefly! because that is, of course, fine, even if you make ALL OF THE PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY do it | 03:59 |
| LjL | and because clearly you absolutely cannot identify someone against their shitty ID photo if they have just their mouth covered | 03:59 |
| LjL | but they didn't ask me to do it, so i guess i dodged an unpleasant incident | 03:59 |
| de-facto | i still dont get why would they not make such elections outdoors? | 04:00 |
| LjL | de-facto, that's not really easy | 04:00 |
| LjL | first you don't know what the weather will be like | 04:00 |
| de-facto | with a big fan blowing all the papers around so people have always air exchange | 04:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: WHO's chief holds out hope for Covid-19 vaccine by end of the year → https://is.gd/KYLcfC | 04:01 |
| LjL | indeed, blowing all the papers around :P | 04:01 |
| de-facto | yeah still outdoors would be MUCH more safe | 04:01 |
| LjL | well, not having them at all would be even safer | 04:01 |
| jacklsw | and some prison staff spreads it to the inmates | 04:01 |
| LjL | but not all things that are safe are practically doable, especially not in italy | 04:01 |
| LjL | our elections barely work (logistically, not saying they're fake) at the best of times | 04:01 |
| jacklsw | that's where contributed to the steep curve | 04:01 |
| jacklsw | and the politicians are asking us not to blame them | 04:02 |
| jacklsw | for not following SOP | 04:02 |
| de-facto | uhm why would someone not blame them for that? | 04:02 |
| LjL | anyway, indeed our numbers had started to rise at the end of august, due to holidays most likely, but the current much sharper increase is kind of compatible with the lag you'd get after elections on september 20 | 04:02 |
| jacklsw | no lockdown though, coz we can't afford another lockdown | 04:02 |
| de-facto | LjL any increase in incidence due to the elections? | 04:02 |
| LjL | de-facto, i don't know if "due to", but look at https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Italy&cumulative=no - what i see is after a hint of rise, the curve decidedly started rising around 20 august. then it kept rising but not so much. then on 1 october there was a complete change of pace, from ~1500 to ~2500 a day. it's still much less than other EU countries, but who cares, it's the patterns | 04:04 |
| de-facto | jacklsw, hopefully they can trace the clusters then, e.g. instead of tracing forward from infections use positive tested cases as indicators for assuming a cluster in their past, trace backwards until you find it and then trace forward from the cluster, would multiply the success rates for tracing maybe by an half an order of magnitude or more | 04:04 |
| LjL | i think seeing a spike on 1 october is compatible with effects from elections on 20 september | 04:04 |
| de-facto | when was that election date? | 04:05 |
| LjL | but also, schools started a couple of days earlier, so it could be that too | 04:05 |
| LjL | 20 september! :P | 04:05 |
| LjL | i said it three times | 04:05 |
| de-facto | hehe sorry its late here :) | 04:05 |
| LjL | the other completely idiotic thing is schools started just a couple of days *before* the elections even though elections, in italy, take place *in* schools | 04:06 |
| LjL | but they had said all summer that schools would start on schedule, and so they did it anyway despite it being completely moronic :\ | 04:06 |
| de-facto | hmm so roughtly 10 days later there seems to be an increase in incidence indeed | 04:07 |
| de-facto | well i guess that could fit as you said | 04:07 |
| LjL | yeah. well, maybe it would be more plausible to expect a 15-20 day delay, based on prior experiences | 04:07 |
| LjL | so maybe school can be more to blame | 04:07 |
| LjL | i don't know, having school *and* elections at around the same time was just really stupid | 04:08 |
| de-facto | two generations, why not | 04:08 |
| LjL | if nothing else, because you can't tell the effects of one from the effects of the other | 04:08 |
| LjL | de-facto, "why not" because you also have to account the preeeetty long time for positive tests to make it into the published numbers | 04:08 |
| LjL | but hey i dunno maybe they've gotten faster than last spring | 04:09 |
| de-facto | yeah then impact from schools opening and elections arent separable, but in many places school openings (with masks etc) did not really lead to an explosion of cases (yet?) | 04:09 |
| LjL | too many unknown variables | 04:09 |
| LjL | de-facto, but then i could bring up Israel as a possible counterexample | 04:09 |
| LjL | their school opening was... a bumpy ride | 04:09 |
| de-facto | yes thats a good point indeed there is a significant delay in reporting | 04:09 |
| de-facto | hmm | 04:09 |
| LjL | i think what makes sense is opening schools for kids up to 10-11 years of age, and keeping them closed for the rest | 04:10 |
| de-facto | it depends on how school opening is done, in Israel it seems it went wrong, in other places not so much | 04:10 |
| LjL | 1) there is tentative evidence that children below that age are less able to spread it | 04:10 |
| LjL | 2) they can't be left home alone, so if there is no school it means more parents must juggle it between home and work | 04:11 |
| LjL | 3) i forgot the third reason i had in mind | 04:11 |
| de-facto | 1) afaik their viral load is comparable though (eg. similar Ct values in PCR swabs) | 04:11 |
| LjL | yeah i don't know, there are somewhat contradictory data | 04:11 |
| LjL | the viral load is high, there is also a study that directly says their ability to spread is high | 04:12 |
| LjL | and yet | 04:12 |
| de-facto | 2) thats a major point also for economy | 04:12 |
| LjL | there is the Vo study where it seems very low, and the much bigger 23andme thing that also says nope | 04:12 |
| LjL | anyway, even if 1) isn't true, 2) remains | 04:12 |
| LjL | so there is a tentative reason, and a certain reason | 04:12 |
| LjL | and a third reason that may or may not be worthwhile but we'll never know since i can't remember it again :P | 04:13 |
| de-facto | afaik their viral load sometimes was a bit less other times a bit more, but in general of the same order of magnitude than in adults, hence the assumption is that their salvia is just as infectious | 04:13 |
| de-facto | now it depends, do they breathe as much? cough as deeply? upwards? | 04:13 |
| LjL | yeah, you can only be sure of all those details when you actually look at "are they infecting people?" | 04:13 |
| de-facto | its quite difficult to say, but just from viral load they are more or less comparable also when asymptomatic afaik | 04:13 |
| LjL | and the two things i mentioned focused on that part | 04:13 |
| LjL | oh yeah 3) was simply, 3) people over 11 or so can use remote tools without too many complications | 04:14 |
| de-facto | indeed it may be possible they spread less infections even when they have comparable viral load | 04:14 |
| LjL | younger people may not really understand very well that the school is actually ongoing, just on their tablet | 04:15 |
| LjL | that shouldn't be an issue with older kids as long as they have tablets and computers (which the state can provide if needed) | 04:15 |
| LjL | anyway, time for me to drink some blissful alcohol and wind down for sleep | 04:15 |
| LjL | instead i'm getting agitated, which is not good | 04:16 |
| de-facto | yeah but older children or students probably also could implement hygiene rules more strictly and always wear masks etc (if they could be convinced that it makes sense to follow that) | 04:16 |
| LjL | de-facto, i doubt it | 04:16 |
| LjL | young children may not *understand* the rules | 04:16 |
| LjL | but teenagers will say "fuck you" at them, you can be sure of that | 04:16 |
| LjL | they do it with every other thing that school forces them to do | 04:17 |
| LjL | if anything i've seen children aged maybe 6 or so scold their parents because they weren't wearing a mask :P | 04:17 |
| de-facto | hmm maybe i am too optimistic indeed | 04:17 |
| LjL | it's just an age that isn't very amenable to rules | 04:18 |
| de-facto | i just see it at university, students stick very strictly to the rules | 04:18 |
| LjL | university is different | 04:18 |
| LjL | but if i think of particularly kids between 13 and 16 or so... god, they hate rules :P | 04:18 |
| LjL | of course idiots exist at all ages | 04:18 |
| LjL | but apart from the idiots... | 04:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: White House has more coronavirus cases than Taiwan, New Zealand, and Vietnam → https://is.gd/ONqyjV | 04:22 |
| de-facto | probably its more about convincing people (kids, adults, etc) that following the rules protects their freedom in life by preventing lockdown, imho thats obvious, but it seems many thing different for some reason that i dont understand to be honest | 04:22 |
| de-facto | many think different | 04:22 |
| de-facto | i dont like this some European countries reached twice the incidence than average in US https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=EU;US;France;United%20Kingdom;Italy;Germany;Netherlands;Belgium;Czechia&byPopulation=yes&cumulative=no&smooth=yes&miscType=Rate | 04:31 |
| de-facto | that is the assumption case numbers are gathered in a comparable way though | 04:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: South Dakota Gov. Kristi Noem says lockdowns are 'useless' as state's COVID-19 cases soar → https://is.gd/fAqfX9 | 04:33 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Emergency Use Authorization for Vaccines to Prevent COVID-19 Guidance for Industry (84 votes) | https://www.fda.gov/media/142749/download | https://redd.it/j6c0c7 | 04:34 |
| de-facto | weird there is almost like a division through the middle of Europe Norway/Sweden/Finland, Germany, (Switzerland) and Italy with low prevalence compared to the neighboring countries in both the west and east that almost have an order of magnitude more incidence | 04:37 |
| de-facto | well less in the east still but in the west its super high prevalence, Spain, France, UK, Netherlands, Belgium | 04:39 |
| de-facto | i wonder why that is, traveling preferences or such? | 04:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: White House Adviser Stephen Miller Tests Positive For The Coronavirus → https://is.gd/GJXrWd | 05:05 |
| de-facto | what a bad example on how not to do things, quite embarrassing for the WH | 05:15 |
| de-facto | at least they are not hiding it | 05:15 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: Coronavirus Has Killed More Americans than Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan and World War I Combined (10317 votes) | https://www.newsweek.com/coronavirus-has-killed-more-americans-vietnam-korea-iraq-afghanistan-world-war-i-combined-1536883 | https://redd.it/j6fqvp | 05:16 |
| de-facto | well true but not in the same age cohort | 05:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Regal Movie Chain Will Close All 536 U.S. Theaters On Thursday → https://is.gd/h69uBx | 05:26 |
| Jigsy | The UK doesn't want a national lockdown. | 05:33 |
| Jigsy | The simple solution is to have a local lockdown in every counry. | 05:33 |
| Jigsy | county* | 05:33 |
| Jigsy | :D | 05:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Facebook, Twitter take action over Donald Trump’s misleading COVID-19 posts → https://is.gd/Bi0Hpn | 05:37 |
| ryouma | and it likely could have been prevented --- 20:16 <CoronaBot> 04/r/coronavirus: Coronavirus Has Killed More Americans than Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan and World War I Combined | 06:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Fauci warns up to 400,000 Americans could die of coronavirus without safeguards in place → https://is.gd/C0Kz6V | 06:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Why doctors aren’t so sure Trump is feeling better from Covid-19 → https://is.gd/J7Vyoz | 06:20 |
| ryouma | weird that some of those wars were so wrenching to the us yet so many deny the pandemic | 06:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Most patients’ Covid-19 care bears little resemblance to Trump’s → https://is.gd/BDgWGY | 06:31 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Ukraine: +4482 cases (now 240811), +94 deaths (now 4624) since a day ago — Quebec, Canada: +1364 cases (now 81014), +15 deaths (now 5899) since a day ago — World: +24139 cases (now 36.2 million), +219 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 3 hours ago — India: +2952 cases (now 6.8 million) since 7 hours ago | 07:08 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Ceara, Brazil: +12823 cases (now 255929), +28 deaths (now 9084) since a day ago — Noord-Brabant, Netherlands: +1296 cases (now 20760), +5 deaths (now 1569) since 2 days ago — Gelderland, Netherlands: +937 cases (now 13958), +1 deaths (now 706) since 2 days ago — Utrecht, Netherlands: +782 cases (now 11753) since 2 days ago | 07:23 |
| david-north | k | 07:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Billionaires' wealth rises to $10.2 trillion amid Covid crisis → https://is.gd/K9YBFi | 07:35 |
| xrogaan | %cases sweden | 07:49 |
| Brainstorm | xrogaan: In Sweden, there have been 96145 confirmed cases (0.9% of the population) and 5895 deaths (6.1% of cases) as of 16 hours ago. 1.7 million tests were performed (5.8% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Sweden for time series data. | 07:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: In late-night tweets, Trump changes course on coronavirus relief talks → https://is.gd/XO6pYE | 07:57 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: McConnell releases testy response following Senate challenger Amy McGrath's request for pre-debate COVID-19 testing → https://is.gd/EXGmtP | 08:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: California governor's office tells diners to wear masks "in between bites" → https://is.gd/zxVey4 | 08:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: 13% case positivity rate reported in Tokyo, 142 cases out of 1039 tests → https://is.gd/hXIFGZ | 08:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: John Hagee, prominent megachurch pastor, ill with COVID-19 → https://is.gd/acT5us | 08:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Singapore will pay couples to have a baby during pandemic → https://is.gd/VJZqcd | 09:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: US election wrap, October 7: Trump cries foul over FDA’s vaccine guidelines → https://is.gd/SZvK7t | 09:44 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Previous infection with other types of coronaviruses may lessen severity of COVID-19 (80 votes) | https://www.bmc.org/news/press-releases/2020/10/06/previous-infection-other-types-coronaviruses-may-lessen-severity | https://redd.it/j6jd6z | 10:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Do eyeglasses help keep coronavirus out? Johns Hopkins expert says more evidence needed: During the current pandemic, we've all been advised to protect ourselves from infection by the SARS-CoV-2 virus that causes COVID-19 by masking, physical distancing and frequent hand-washing. In the Sept. 17 issue of JAMA Ophthalmology, a [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/LdJai5 | 10:06 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Tunisia: +2312 cases (now 24542), +43 deaths (now 364) since 2 days ago — World: +21095 cases (now 36.2 million), +366 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 3 hours ago — Russia: +11115 cases (now 1.2 million), +202 deaths (now 21865) since a day ago — Philippines: +2804 cases (now 329637), +60 deaths (now 5925) since 23 hours ago | 10:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: 'Brain fog' following COVID-19 recovery may indicate PTSD: A new report suggests that lingering "brain fog" and other neurological symptoms after COVID -19 recovery may be due to post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), an effect observed in past human coronavirus outbreaks such as SARS and MERS. → https://is.gd/jw4m3y | 10:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: US agency wants 2 months safety data before approving COVID-19 vaccine: The US Food and Drug Administration made public its guidance for issuing emergency approval for a COVID-19 vaccine on Tuesday, making it clear it wants to see follow-up two months after trial volunteers have their second dose. → https://is.gd/UNTS7B | 10:27 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Anti-vaxxer misinformation goes viral in the Philippines: Online misinformation is leaching out from cheap mobile phones and free Facebook plans used by millions in the Philippines, convincing many to reject vaccinations for polio and other deadly diseases. → https://is.gd/sdOQ1X | 10:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Health: He’s a recruiter for a Covid-19 vaccine trial. Can he overcome communities’ distrust — and his own mother’s? → https://is.gd/Vl3XEZ | 10:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Australia expects COVID-19 vaccination is still a year away: Australia considered a rollout of a coronavirus vaccine no sooner than mid-2021 a best-case scenario in its pandemic planning that would save the economy tens of billions of dollars, the treasurer said on Wednesday. → https://is.gd/OBO25I | 10:59 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Poland: +3003 cases (now 107319), +75 deaths (now 2792) since a day ago — Maharashtra, India: +12258 cases (now 1.5 million), +370 deaths (now 38717) since 23 hours ago — Karnataka, India: +9993 cases (now 657705), +91 deaths (now 9461) since 23 hours ago — World: +9190 cases (now 36.2 million), +186 deaths (now 1.1 million) since an hour ago | 11:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid spreads further among Trump's inner circle → https://is.gd/iacsFw | 11:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: New York to impose new shutdowns in coronavirus hot spots → https://is.gd/8fZOgv | 11:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Population based estimates of comorbidities affecting risk for complications from COVID-19 in the US → https://is.gd/fzwtgI | 12:03 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Romania: +2958 cases (now 142570), +82 deaths (now 5203) since 23 hours ago — Slovakia: +877 cases (now 14689) since a day ago — World: +6078 cases (now 36.2 million), +132 deaths (now 1.1 million) since an hour ago — Bangladesh: +1520 cases (now 373151), +35 deaths (now 5440) since a day ago | 12:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: 'But there is no coronavirus,' shocked cynic told doctors, waking up in hospital → https://is.gd/TSJMPR | 12:14 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Slovenia: +356 cases (now 7120) since a day ago — World: +1670 cases (now 36.2 million), +10 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 21 minutes ago — Oman: +817 cases (now 103465), +10 deaths (now 1000) since a day ago — Malaysia: +489 cases (now 13993) since a day ago | 12:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: China's experimental COVID-19 vaccine appears safe - study → https://is.gd/0tad8a | 12:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Israeli PM’s wife may have violated lockdown with haircut → https://is.gd/EC5Tbe | 12:35 |
| dTal | my hair looks so stupid | 12:38 |
| dTal | I can't take it much longer, I'm gonna go nuts with scissors one of these days | 12:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from WHO Euro: How to counter pandemic fatigue and refresh public commitment to COVID-19 prevention measures: In recent weeks, many countries have been reporting an increase in “pandemic fatigue” – people are feeling demotivated about following recommended behaviours to protect themselves and others from the virus. → https://is.gd/yPR8HB | 13:07 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Nepal: +3439 cases (now 94253), +15 deaths (now 578) since a day ago — World: +9203 cases (now 36.2 million), +260 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 53 minutes ago — Iran: +4019 cases (now 483844), +239 deaths (now 27658) since a day ago — Switzerland: +1077 cases (now 57709), +1 deaths (now 2082) since 22 hours ago | 13:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Face masks do not impair indicators of cognitive performance when performing moderate physical work in hot environments: A novel study shows that face mask use does not affect indicators of cognitive performance when the wearers are resting or performing moderate physical work in hot environments. However, wearing a face mask [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/X3xazg | 13:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Brussels closes cafes and bars in new virus curbs: The Belgian capital took a step towards restoring its coronavirus lockdown Wednesday, when Brussels ordered cafes and bars to close for a month. → https://is.gd/4Vd8MM | 13:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: 5 things to know before the stock market opens Wednesday: Dow futures advanced Wednesday after President Trump's late night tweet prodding Capitol Hill to approve additional coronavirus relief in separate bills. → https://is.gd/yDSvXM | 13:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Problem at Roche warehouse raises fears over UK COVID tests → https://is.gd/F2nDQH | 14:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: 5 things to know before the stock market opens Wednesday: Dow futures advanced Wednesday after President Trump's late night tweet prodding Capitol Hill to approve additional coronavirus relief in separate bills. → https://is.gd/yDSvXM | 14:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Research identifies new information to accelerate structure-based drug design against COVID-19: A new paper in Nature Communications outlines how an international research team has identified potential ways forward to rapidly design improved and more potent compounds in the fight against COVID-19. The work is the result of a [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/7WIKF7 | 14:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Risk of infection: Air purifiers remove 90% of aerosols in school classrooms: The most dangerous route to an infection with SARS-CoV-2 is via the air: For example, when infected persons sneeze or cough, they catapult relatively large droplets which, however, sink to the ground within a radius of two meters. Important are also [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/0xC8XQ | 14:54 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Nearly half of parents willing to accept less rigorous testing of COVID-19 vaccine: A new study from researchers at the University of British Columbia reveals many parents are willing to accept less rigorous testing and expedited approval of a COVID-19 vaccine. → https://is.gd/FO8Fas | 15:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Plan ahead to keep Halloween safe for kids with asthma, allergies: This Halloween may be especially challenging for parents of children with asthma and allergies, as they also have to guard against COVID-19. → https://is.gd/JczXoH | 15:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Expect more virtual house calls from your doctor, thanks to telehealth revolution: If you have serious lung disease, getting a lung transplant can add years to your life. It also adds a list of must-do tasks: getting regular tests, taking medication and visiting the doctor for checkups, all to keep the body from rejecting the [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/Vk8xE6 | 15:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Swiss told 'get a grip' as virus cases top 1,000-mark: Daily coronavirus cases in Switzerland jumped over the 1,000 mark on Wednesday for the first time since April 1 as the Swiss were urged to "get a grip". → https://is.gd/HfaWGn | 15:47 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Myanmar: +1400 cases (now 21433), +39 deaths (now 510) since 21 hours ago — World: +28169 cases (now 36.3 million), +360 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 2 hours ago — North Macedonia: +317 cases (now 19413), +4 deaths (now 772) since 21 hours ago — India: +7579 cases (now 6.8 million), +60 deaths (now 104651) since 9 hours ago | 15:54 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Q&A: Why getting ahead of COVID-19 requires modeling more than a health crisis: A country's actions, or lack of action, in responding to the pandemic is partly informed by models that predict the virus' impact on various aspects of society. But Olivier de Weck, professor of aeronautics and astronautics and engineering systems [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/zfX4lo | 15:58 |
| de-facto | i just cant get this out of my head: what if incidence increased as a really bumpy ride all along (e.g. with overdispersion k ~ 0.1 increasing with little jumps because cluster contribute the majority) and just nobody noticed when it was visible at the start (when numbers were low) and now its not visible anymore because with more cases it averages out? | 16:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Why do some COVID-19 tests come back with a 'weak positive' and why does it matter?: When we get a test result for a disease like COVID-19, we naturally expect it to be either positive or negative. But the results of these tests are not so black and white. → https://is.gd/z96wv5 | 16:08 |
| de-facto | it would mean detected infections by positive tests could be used as indicators for a likely cluster in their past, so tracing _backwards_ to find such a cluster and then tracing _forwards_ from that cluster could multiply detection rates quite significantly | 16:10 |
| genera | irgendwo hab ich auch von einem Land gelesen, daß 40% positivyty rate hat | 16:16 |
| de-facto | MX hatte noch viel mehr, kommt halt auf targeting für testing an | 16:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Diseases, Conditions, Syndromes: Nearly a half-million poultry deaths: There are 3 avian influenza outbreaks in Victoria. Should we be worried? → https://is.gd/ePVjgX | 16:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Covid-19: Which rapid tests is the UK pinning its hopes on?: The UK’s testing system is currently under immense strain partly owing to a lack of laboratory capacity for the gold standard polymerase chain reaction (PCR) test.1The government wants mass testing... → https://is.gd/Jvtu9D | 16:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Invisible threat: Listeria in smoked fish: In 2018, 701 cases of severe invasive listeriosis were communicated to the Robert Koch Institute (RKI), which translates into 0.8 cases per 100,000 inhabitants. Most listeriosis illnesses reported are severe and are associated with blood poisoning, meningitis or miscarriages, for [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/OKQhH2 | 17:13 |
| Jigsy | Another 14K today. | 17:15 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Italy: +3677 cases (now 333940), +31 deaths (now 36061) since 23 hours ago — Moldova: +1062 cases (now 58794), +17 deaths (now 1406) since 23 hours ago — World: +27254 cases (now 36.3 million), +317 deaths (now 1.1 million) since an hour ago — United Kingdom: +12829 cases (now 544275) since 10 hours ago | 17:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Spain unveils huge economic recovery plan amid pandemic → https://is.gd/gCndb7 | 17:35 |
| Jigsy | %cases UK | 17:39 |
| Brainstorm | Jigsy: In United Kingdom, there have been 544275 confirmed cases (0.8% of the population) and 45712 deaths (8.4% of cases) as of 22 minutes ago. 26.4 million tests were performed (2.1% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=United%20Kingdom for time series data. | 17:39 |
| Jigsy | Eh? The gov site says 14,100ish | 17:39 |
| Jigsy | + . | 17:39 |
| LjL | ryouma, oh this is gonna trigger you <Brainstorm> New from Medical Xpress: 'Brain fog' following COVID-19 recovery may indicate PTSD: A new report suggests that lingering "brain fog" and other neurological symptoms after COVID -19 recovery may be due to post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), an effect observed in past human coronavirus outbreaks such as SARS and MERS. → https://is.gd/jw4m3y | 17:48 |
| david_north | thats my issue ..fog | 17:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from WebMD: 'Anti-Vaxx' Movement Shifts Focus to Civil Liberties: As a COVID-19 vaccine gets closer to becoming a reality, opposition from so-called anti-vaxxer groups could become a political movement, researchers warn. → https://is.gd/H0XHwl | 17:56 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Friuli Venezia Giulia, Italy: +346 deaths (now 701) since 10 hours ago — World: +5273 cases (now 36.3 million), +63 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 48 minutes ago — US: +1899 cases (now 7.7 million), +36 deaths (now 216080) since 48 minutes ago — Indiana, US: +1281 cases (now 128227), +16 deaths (now 3727) since 20 hours ago | 18:05 |
| metreo | %cases US | 18:23 |
| Brainstorm | metreo: In US, there have been 7.7 million confirmed cases (2.3% of the population) and 216089 deaths (2.8% of cases) as of 17 minutes ago. 113.3 million tests were performed (6.8% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.0% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 4.2% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data. | 18:23 |
| david_north | %cases US | 18:27 |
| Brainstorm | david_north: In US, there have been 7.7 million confirmed cases (2.3% of the population) and 216089 deaths (2.8% of cases) as of 21 minutes ago. 113.3 million tests were performed (6.8% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.0% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 4.2% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data. | 18:27 |
| OldFaithful | LjL see anything on the wire in the past minute? | 18:28 |
| OldFaithful | markets dropping intensely | 18:28 |
| OldFaithful | whats breaking | 18:28 |
| LjL | I don't follow markets, plus I'm currently outside having a calming(?) walk | 18:29 |
| LjL | Is there anything that is dropping particularly much? | 18:29 |
| LjL | Some vaccine manufacturer? | 18:29 |
| OldFaithful | ok nm, enjoy the walk | 18:29 |
| de-facto | OldFaithful, which stock value do you refer to in particular? | 18:33 |
| OldFaithful | the three indices | 18:34 |
| OldFaithful | I think it was the court decision on Trump's financial records | 18:34 |
| de-facto | you mean like ^DJI ? | 18:34 |
| OldFaithful | yes, although that might map to a drone company. I usually use DJIA | 18:35 |
| de-facto | hmm but Dow Jones Industrial Average is +1.55% at 28.202 | 18:36 |
| de-facto | which other indices did you mean? | 18:37 |
| OldFaithful | thats for the day | 18:37 |
| OldFaithful | I watch 1m candles | 18:37 |
| OldFaithful | it looks like the cause was political. disregard | 18:37 |
| de-facto | ok | 18:38 |
| de-facto | just sometimes too curious :D | 18:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: Eli Lilly shares jump after company says it's seeking FDA clearance for antibody drug: Shares of Eli Lilly rose on Wednesday after the company announced it submitted a request to the U.S. FDA for emergency authorization of its Covid-19 antibody treatment. → https://is.gd/zDxAlf | 18:39 |
| david_north | wake me when markets are down 10% for the month | 18:41 |
| de-facto | United States Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex Azar was from 2012 to 2017 President of the U.S. division of Eli Lilly and Company | 18:42 |
| OldFaithful | Eli Lilly also runs the NHS in the UK | 18:45 |
| blkshp | Or Matt hacock as she's better known | 18:49 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Montana, US: +716 cases (now 16063), +1 deaths (now 193) since 21 hours ago — World: +17318 cases (now 36.3 million), +330 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 51 minutes ago — Brazil: +7578 cases (now 5.0 million), +188 deaths (now 147759) since 17 hours ago — US: +3726 cases (now 7.7 million), +45 deaths (now 216125) since 51 minutes ago | 18:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Diseases, Conditions, Syndromes: What do we know about superspreader events in the pandemic? → https://is.gd/KR1bHq | 18:50 |
| de-facto | nice finally it seems superspread events are more in the media | 18:51 |
| Arsanerit | %cases Netherlands | 18:53 |
| Brainstorm | Arsanerit: In Netherlands, there have been 149988 confirmed cases (0.9% of the population) and 6518 deaths (4.3% of cases) as of 3 hours ago. 2.7 million tests were performed (5.6% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Netherlands for time series data. | 18:53 |
| Arsanerit | Why does The Netherlands have so many more new cases than Germany, what are they doing differently? | 18:53 |
| de-facto | any lockdowns in Netherlands? | 18:53 |
| de-facto | good question would like to know the answer to that too | 18:54 |
| de-facto | are the origins for the majority of contributions to incidence known for Netherlands? | 18:54 |
| de-facto | cluster spreads in bars and party scene? young people? travel returnees? | 18:55 |
| de-facto | (thats speculation, hence i would like to know where the orginins come from) | 18:56 |
| Arsanerit | Good questions, but I don't know that The Netherlands has any of that much differently than Germany. They don't have mandatory masks in shops, but I doubt that's where the biggest spread happens. | 18:56 |
| Arsanerit | At least for Germany we're told travel returnees are no longer a big factor like they were a month ago, which makes sense as there haven't been major holidays recently. | 18:56 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Lilly provides comprehensive update on progress of SARS-CoV-2 neutralizing antibody programs (80 votes) | https://investor.lilly.com/news-releases/news-release-details/lilly-provides-comprehensive-update-progress-sars-cov-2 | https://redd.it/j6s4b6 | 18:56 |
| de-facto | afaik at some times (August?) some travel returnees to Germany from some places had like 2% positive test rate and contributed (back then) to like 40% of incidence for some federal states | 18:58 |
| de-facto | so it may be that some of them did seed new infection chains eventually leading to community transmission with potential super spread events | 18:58 |
| OldFaithful | Leaders in the US, by contrast, are pushing infection rates higher | 18:59 |
| de-facto | right now i think many contributions in Germany come from public party scene and household transmission as well as private celebrations, i wish there were numbers on how many cluster contribution there are | 19:00 |
| Arsanerit | de-facto: probably yes, but I can't explain the differences between Germany and Netherlands. | 19:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Europe passes 6 million confirmed coronavirus cases: Europe has registered more than six million confirmed cases of novel coronavirus since it first appeared in the region in January, an AFP tally just after 1500 GMT Wednesday showed. → https://is.gd/1iR2Ag | 19:01 |
| Arsanerit | I find public party scene, household transmissions, and private party scene entirely feasible, but then it should be similar, and the trajectory for Germany doesn't look like it's "just behind" The Netherlands either. | 19:01 |
| de-facto | i mean if the Netherlands did not even require masks in public stores this may be a hint they dont take containment requirements serious in general, hence maybe its more of a generic attitude towards how to proceed with it then? | 19:01 |
| Arsanerit | Speculation, but maybe. | 19:02 |
| de-facto | yes speculation i have to admit indeed | 19:02 |
| Arsanerit | There are also those who argue that people who wear masks offset the advantages of masks by reducing social distancing (risk homeostasis argument) | 19:02 |
| Arsanerit | At my workplace interesting we don't have to wear any masks, but social distancing is taken quite seriously and in my group we're still 80% or so in home office. | 19:03 |
| de-facto | well i cant see people hugging or not respecting physical distancing just because they are wearing masks | 19:03 |
| Arsanerit | I don't know. | 19:03 |
| de-facto | it may be an effect, but i would think its the minority so wearing masks would have quite a positive effect in terms of containing spread of the pathogen | 19:05 |
| de-facto | at least thats what i see in the stores, everyone is wearing a mask here as well as in public transport (as far as i could see from outside of it) | 19:06 |
| de-facto | not outdoors though, almost noone wears masks outdoors here | 19:06 |
| de-facto | but in public buildings such as university everyone wears them | 19:07 |
| de-facto | are there any lockdowns in Netherlands? | 19:08 |
| de-facto | or other restrictions acting against the current spike? | 19:09 |
| de-facto | how many people are allowed to gather at one place? | 19:09 |
| Arsanerit | I don't know. | 19:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Patients' access to vital NHS tests delayed by warehouse failure: Covid swabs and key tests for cancer could be unavailable after problems at diagnostics firm Roche. → https://is.gd/szworu | 19:11 |
| Arsanerit | My parents live in a corona hotspot. | 19:12 |
| de-facto | in the Netherlands? | 19:12 |
| Arsanerit | Yes. | 19:13 |
| Arsanerit | My birthplace has 68 cases per 100,000 per day. | 19:13 |
| de-facto | wow thats quite a lot | 19:13 |
| de-facto | really per day not per week? | 19:14 |
| Arsanerit | 9% positive test cases | 19:14 |
| Arsanerit | yes per day | 19:14 |
| de-facto | damn, thats not so good | 19:14 |
| Arsanerit | nationally it was 28.7 per 100,000 yesterday | 19:14 |
| de-facto | here they always use weekly new cases per 100k, if above 50 lockdown is required | 19:15 |
| de-facto | that would be 7 per day | 19:15 |
| Arsanerit | yes, Dutch authorities use a critical value of 7 per day averaged over a certain period, so that is the same https://coronadashboard.government.nl/landelijk/positief-geteste-mensen | 19:15 |
| de-facto | afaik thats why they needed to close down Berlin | 19:16 |
| Arsanerit | My wife is moving from near Berlin to near Frankfurt (to me) this weekend so we'll be transiting through Berlin Hbf twice. | 19:17 |
| de-facto | so basically since mid of Sept Netherlands is above that threshold value of 7 daily new per 100k | 19:17 |
| de-facto | wear a FFP2 or N95 mask while traveling | 19:18 |
| de-facto | you can get them in pharmacy stores | 19:18 |
| Arsanerit | I thought those were limited to medical staff and high risk people | 19:19 |
| Arsanerit | I may be a risk group (neurofibromatosis) but not too high risk I think | 19:19 |
| de-facto | i think not anymore, but i may be wrong | 19:19 |
| de-facto | i ordered mine in the internet | 19:19 |
| de-facto | according to http://metrics.covid19-analysis.org/ the Netherlands had R>1 since begin of July now at R~1.3 for quite some time, hence the sharp increase in daily new cases | 19:22 |
| de-facto | it looks like containment measures are urgently needed there | 19:23 |
| de-facto | even more so in UK, damn that looks bad they are at R ~1.6 and raising | 19:25 |
| de-facto | in UK reproduction number R had a steady raise since mid of June almost like a linear increase with time | 19:26 |
| de-facto | its quite hard to compare though because comparison would assume a static testing strategy | 19:28 |
| de-facto | hmm yeat in UK testing also increased https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-tests-per-thousand-people-smoothed-7-day?tab=chart&time=earliest..latest&country=~GBR | 19:30 |
| de-facto | like probably in many other countries too | 19:30 |
| Arsanerit | I don't know how to recognise ffp2 or n95 in the local pharmacy, most seem basic masks https://www.dm.de/search?query=ffp2&searchType=product | 19:30 |
| de-facto | the proper standardization would be CE certified EN 149:2001+A1:2009 FFP2 or FFP3 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atemschutzmaske#Klassifikation_in_Europa | 19:32 |
| Arsanerit | I don't think they sell those, but I'm not sure. | 19:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: Delta is shuffling its management ranks as coronavirus reshapes airline needs: Delta is shuffling its managers around to deal with the coronavirus crisis and a wave of early retirements last summer. → https://is.gd/pkl0NY | 19:33 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for World: +77511 cases (now 36.4 million), +1003 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 49 minutes ago — Lebanon: +1459 cases (now 48377), +9 deaths (now 433) since 22 hours ago — India: +64968 cases (now 6.8 million), +868 deaths (now 105519) since 3 hours ago — Ireland: +611 cases (now 39584), +5 deaths (now 1816) since 22 hours ago | 19:35 |
| de-facto | but the ones with valves might not be appropriate protection for other people from exhaling | 19:37 |
| Arsanerit | those aren't even allowed in places with mandatory masks here, I think | 19:39 |
| de-facto | yes that might actually really be the case indeed, afaik also not allowed on airplanes | 19:39 |
| Jigsy | [18:26:42] <de-facto> in UK reproduction number R <--- The UK keeps redefining R, though. | 19:40 |
| de-facto | interesting how do they redefine it? | 19:41 |
| Jigsy | To make it seem less bad than it is. | 19:41 |
| Jigsy | Like they just make it up every week. | 19:41 |
| de-facto | lol are you serious? | 19:42 |
| OldFaithful | no | 19:43 |
| OldFaithful | reproduction doesn't happen in a vacuum. Humans aren't particles. | 19:43 |
| OldFaithful | behavior modulates any sort of math about that behavior. | 19:43 |
| de-facto | %title http://metrics.covid19-analysis.org/ <-- this the website uses the package https://cran.r-project.org/web/packages/EpiEstim/index.html | 19:44 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From metrics.covid19-analysis.org: error parsing title ('NoneType' object has no attribute 'string') | 19:44 |
| OldFaithful | That's why there's no R in New Zealand or Vietnam | 19:44 |
| de-facto | %title https://academic.oup.com/aje/article/178/9/1505/89262 <-- based on this paper here | 19:45 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From academic.oup.com: New Framework and Software to Estimate Time-Varying Reproduction Numbers During Epidemics | American Journal of Epidemiology | Oxford Academic | 19:45 |
| de-facto | LinLab Group https://content.sph.harvard.edu/xlin/ (behind the website http://metrics.covid19-analysis.org/) publishes their entire sourcecode on https://github.com/lin-lab/?q=COVID | 19:48 |
| de-facto | so tbh i think their numbers are quite trustworthy | 19:48 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: 'But there is no coronavirus,' shocked cynic told doctors, waking up in hospital (10138 votes) | https://www.timesofisrael.com/but-there-is-no-coronavirus-shocked-cynic-told-doctors-waking-up-in-hospital/ | https://redd.it/j6o58t | 20:03 |
| de-facto | So lets make it really simple assuming an exponential increase in UK like N(t) = N0 R^(t/tserial) with N0 ~ 1339 from 1st of Sept its 36 days ago, today we have N(36) ~ 10735, hence R = (N(t)/N0)^(tserial/t) = (10735/1339)^(4/36) = 1.26 with tserial = 4 days or (10735/1339)^(5.2/36) = 1.35 with tserial = 5.2 days | 20:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from CDC: Coronavirus [CoV]: Cases in the U.S. → https://is.gd/yJtqEF | 20:04 |
| de-facto | so even the most simple model yields R ~ 1.3 during whole of Sept increase in UK | 20:05 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Morocco: +2776 cases (now 140024), +29 deaths (now 2439) since 22 hours ago — World: +14847 cases (now 36.4 million), +182 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 31 minutes ago — Andorra: +198 cases (now 2568) since 2 days ago — US: +3811 cases (now 7.7 million), +53 deaths (now 216218) since 31 minutes ago | 20:05 |
| de-facto | afaik a serial time (average duration between two consecutive generations in an infection chain) of 4 days would be quite common in deriving reproduction number R, yet the real value may be more close to 5.2 days (as they found out later) | 20:07 |
| de-facto | anyhow i think R ~ 1.3 during September in UK is quite plausible unfortunately | 20:12 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Long COVID: let patients help define long-lasting COVID symptoms (80 votes) | https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02796-2 | https://redd.it/j6su2i | 20:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from ScienceMag: [Research Articles] Immune responses to SARS-CoV-2 infection in hospitalized pediatric and adult patients: Children and youth infected with severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) have milder disease than do adults, and even among those with the recently described multisystem inflammatory syndrome, mortality is [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/ozsgfG | 20:15 |
| LjL | so, compulsory masks outdoors in all of italy from tomorrow | 20:17 |
| IndoAnon | hahaha | 20:17 |
| LjL | except if you're eating drinking or exercisinng, you know, those activities that put you into groups and make everyone more at risk -.- | 20:18 |
| IndoAnon | https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.08.01.20166595v1 anw, LjL , something interesting came out | 20:18 |
| genera | haha | 20:20 |
| LjL | IndoAnon, i saw some discussion of that earlier when i was half distracted by not being run over by cars (aka walking while looking at phone), what i immediately think is, we can barely do the forward tracing to one level aiui, backwards is going to be tricky, unless we all have apps, bracelets, or something else like that, and it works better than those things have so far... or, i guess if you've taken part to some big event, since we were discussing | 20:20 |
| LjL | those enable superspreaders to actually superspread (with de-facto last night)... but in those cases there can be so many people, how are you going to trace back? there may be a papertrail of some sort but it sounds daunting | 20:20 |
| LjL | without apps or other electronic means, also, it says you have to go back 14 days prior to infection (for backward tracing) instead of 2 days prior to symptoms (for forward). i expect many people are not really going to remember their contacts | 20:23 |
| LjL | maybe we should all be instructed to keep a contact diary | 20:23 |
| de-facto | i think we all should have contact diaries, especially for potential super spread events such as meetings etc | 20:23 |
| IndoAnon | ah, sorry, i meant https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.06.328336v1.full.pdf+html fuck me... | 20:24 |
| de-facto | using cases as indicators for superspread clusters in their past (tracing backwards with contact diaries) and then tracing forward from such potential superspread events may increase tracing by something like an order of magnitude | 20:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from ScienceMag: [Research Articles] Potential impact of tuberculosis vaccines in China, South Africa, and India: More effective tuberculosis vaccines are needed to help reach World Health Organization tuberculosis elimination goals. Insufficient evidence exists on the potential impact of future tuberculosis vaccines with varying characteristics [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/xbcV96 | 20:26 |
| LjL | IndoAnon, oh. well it's okay since it's something that was discussed and i had it in mind to bring up my perplexities about it anyway. | 20:26 |
| IndoAnon | yeah, sorry for that... But I agree that we should connect the dots. If we don't learn from superspreading events, we're doomed | 20:28 |
| de-facto | that is the assumption overdispersion k ~ 0.1 really would be the case for the majority (80%) of cases emerge from a minority of carriers (10%) | 20:28 |
| de-facto | in my opinion it would be a HUGE missed opportunity if that would be the case in reality but not taken advantage from with containment strategies | 20:29 |
| de-facto | of course it strongly depends on local circumstances, yet should be investigated further imho | 20:31 |
| LjL | de-facto, it's completely absent afaik from google+apple's framework, so since it might make more sense to have it automated since it goes further back in the past and people may forget (okay about diaries, but my bet is the only people who'll keep diaries are the ones who aren't going to dangerously-spreading events :P) | 20:36 |
| IndoAnon | 🤣🤣🤣🤣 | 20:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Scotland shuts Glasgow, Edinburgh bars as virus cases surge: The Scottish government ordered pubs in Scotland's two biggest cities to close and restricted food and drink business in the rest of the country as Britain seeks to control a surge in coronavirus cases. The U.K. government is mulling whether to follow suit and tighten [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/ednH5d | 20:37 |
| LjL | well, since it might make more sense to have it automated, then the missed opportunity is in the code, mainly | 20:37 |
| Arsanerit | If only contacts >15 minutes at <1.5 metre count, I can easily list my contacts of the past two weeks, there is just one. | 20:37 |
| LjL | also, don't ask me to understand the maths, but simple diagram on page 3 of https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.08.01.20166595v1.full.pdf makes me think... the "primary case" is either symptomatic or asymptomatic. if symptomatic, then in theory, it's already detected just by virtue of having symptoms and taking a test. then the forward tracing would happen anyway. | 20:38 |
| Arsanerit | I read there are attempts to develop quick breathing tests that identify super spreaders in particular | 20:38 |
| LjL | so the only case where going backwards would be useful is if the (super)spreader is still asymptomatic...? | 20:38 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, but if there is just one, then you clearly aren't representative of the kind of people who attends "superspreading events". i think, based on last night's conversation i had with de-facto at least, that we should distinguish between superspreaders as in people who for one reason or another are naturally more likely spread, from the superspreading *events* that enable those people to actually superspread. because if a superspreader is at home | 20:40 |
| LjL | almost all the time, he's only a superspreader "on paper" | 20:40 |
| Arsanerit | I can't possibly be a superspreader :D | 20:41 |
| LjL | i think "is it mostly the events or is it mostly the people?" is an important question. i think i remember the UK at the beginning put almost no restrictions on big events, because they thought, at the time at least, that they weren't a big factor. sweden which seemed to have a somewhat similar "let's go with herd immunity" strategy (although in both cases there was also "that's not true!" voices) in reality had different nuances where bigger events would | 20:42 |
| LjL | be cancelled | 20:42 |
| de-facto | superspread events probably are not covered by >15min @ >1.5m with BLE | 20:44 |
| LjL | IndoAnon, as to suramin, i see the abstract, don't have much to say, will want to see in vivo stuff. there are soooo many drugs being repurposed that may or may not actually work. maybe there's something about this one that makes it a more compelling candidate than most, but if so i am really clueless about it | 20:45 |
| de-facto | meh t > 15min @ d < 1.5m | 20:45 |
| LjL | de-facto, it's just my pessimistic gut feeling but i think a lot of transmission happens at much briefer exposure times, and who knows about distances | 20:45 |
| de-facto | yes i agree | 20:46 |
| de-facto | especially with aerosol indoors | 20:46 |
| LjL | when i look at my UUID app that lets me see how many people are broadcasting tracing beacons, there's SO many of them (like, today i reached 30) when i pass near a pub, cafe or similar, even if i'm definitely not getting too close to it | 20:46 |
| IndoAnon | LjL: Yeah, it's tiresome... There's no trial for prophylactics | 20:46 |
| LjL | and yet, the framework which actually does the contact tracing doesn't even see all of those beacons | 20:47 |
| LjL | because it doesn't check continuously like the UUID app, but only every 5 minutes | 20:47 |
| LjL | and *then* the app, depending on which government's app it is, will disqualify some events further | 20:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Your pandemic hobby might be doing more good than you know: Maybe it was the meme that pointed out how Shakespeare used his time in quarantine to write "King Lear." Maybe it was all those photos of sourdough bread in your social media feed. Maybe you're just bored. → https://is.gd/FOqR2i | 20:47 |
| de-facto | but i think you got a point there, how to contact someone on anonymous gatherings like in bars or restaurants or discotheques if they write "donald duck" on the entrance list | 20:47 |
| LjL | but even without that part, you're missing the fact that you're passing next to a pub full of people who have the app running, are emitting beacons, are not wearing masks... but your phone won't ever know | 20:48 |
| de-facto | such locations should be closed down completely imho | 20:48 |
| IndoAnon | hmm | 20:48 |
| LjL | what i can read between the lines is there are very strong economic interests that push governments against closing them down completely | 20:48 |
| Arsanerit | donald duck is obvious but how can restaurants ever verify that people write their details truthfully? | 20:48 |
| LjL | with restaurants i can understand it on an individual level... they are often small establishments that will just have to close forever | 20:49 |
| LjL | with clubs and such, sometimes i think there's just a powerful enough mob | 20:49 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, they can't be when people are going to lie to avoid "getting caught", they'll find ways, unless we go full China | 20:49 |
| de-facto | they made a sampling and tried to reach people on contact lists, afaik 68% provided wrong data, so 2/3 could not be reached in case a super spread event occured, fucking 2/3 of them | 20:49 |
| LjL | :\ | 20:50 |
| LjL | 68% is a lot | 20:50 |
| LjL | maybe we should go full China | 20:50 |
| LjL | but that scares me almost as much as COVID does tbh | 20:50 |
| de-facto | there were even stories like discotheque owners requiring their guests to tape their phone cameras because they knew pictures taken at their location would be scandalous if given to press or such | 20:51 |
| de-facto | not sure about how true that is though | 20:51 |
| LjL | but as to things that scare me... i also think, winter is coming, there will be rain and cold, people won't be willing to queue outside supermarkets, it may become almost impossible to order food online anymore again - like last spring, but made very much worse by the weather | 20:51 |
| LjL | i sometimes think we can't get past winter without a toll that will be *orders of magnitude* worse than last spring :( | 20:52 |
| de-facto | i dont think it will be a huge problem if no panic buyers empty the stores, as people just require their daily food ond stuff they buy, so why would there much more than right now? | 20:52 |
| LjL | de-facto, there were some clubs here ("discotheques", but that's a really funny word these days in english :P) that created scandals, including one run by a Briatore which caused a superspreading event that included Berlusconi and a lot of rich&famous people | 20:53 |
| de-facto | here there are no queues outside supermarkets and they arent that full (yet i avoid to go at peak times like saturday or such) | 20:53 |
| de-facto | yeah i think the party scene should be watched much more closely, its those kind of people not caring about containment, getting infected and also not being really careful in everyday life | 20:55 |
| LjL | de-facto, because right now there is a balance between people physically going to supermarkets and people ordering online, and also, with good weather, people probably "spread" the times they go to supermarket over the daytime, work permitting... but as days get shorter and colder and there's more rain, people may start having to queue outside the supermarket in the rain, then they will start trying to order online and everything will stop working. plus, | 20:55 |
| LjL | cold and moist climate will foster transmission even among those people queueing outside, while in the summer, at least being outside made transmission much less likely (i guess) | 20:55 |
| LjL | de-facto, well as a complete anecdote, i passed some "posh" cafes today and that's where i got 30 beacons showing up in my app. then later i passed one of those kinds of pubs/bars where it's mostly people watching football games, and i already know that particular one as a place frequented by kinds of people i don't like, and guess what, only 10 beacons. if "how many have the app installed" can be used as a proxy for how careful people are in general... | 20:57 |
| LjL | well, better stay away from places where tehre's many people, but few running the app | 20:57 |
| de-facto | well outdoors (even in the rain) there probably is not much transmission going on because people would distance i guess | 20:57 |
| de-facto | and if its cold people may try to schedule at times where there are no queues (e.g. by looking at google maps for peak times etc) | 20:57 |
| LjL | de-facto, people don't distance much in those queues, really. some supermarket started requiring people to take carts even if they didn't need them, just to help them distance from the people in front of them, by the size of the cart alone | 20:57 |
| LjL | de-facto, also i saw some supermarkets put rain coverings in front of the entrance, shaped to allow a queue to take cover there. but that means if the queue is longer than that, they'll try to squeeze in | 20:58 |
| LjL | (when it rains) | 20:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: Eli Lilly shares jump after company says it's seeking FDA clearance for antibody drug: Shares of Eli Lilly rose on Wednesday after the company announced it submitted a request to the U.S. FDA for emergency authorization of its Covid-19 antibody treatment. → https://is.gd/zDxAlf | 20:58 |
| de-facto | hmm good points | 20:59 |
| de-facto | yeah the people using the app probably also may be more careful in general hence less likely to be infected | 21:00 |
| de-facto | here people do distance in front of supermarkets (at least the ones where i was) but there were no roofs for protecting from rain or such | 21:00 |
| LjL | de-facto, i asked the person who makes the UUID app to also show a count of people who have BLE broadcasts ongoing but do NOT have the app sending a beacon, to get a general idea of the *proportion* of people who use the app among all the people who use phones... but he declined the suggestion, because he said there's a lot of devices (smartwatches, bands, things like those) broadcasting BLE stuff and they aren't really representative of people's phones | 21:01 |
| de-facto | lately i could not remember having to wait outdoors at all, there always were carts available (they make their usage mandatory here too, yet nowadays not every super market anymore) | 21:01 |
| de-facto | i dont like to touch the handles, so i use them in reverse orientation LOL | 21:02 |
| LjL | but i think, i dunno, having a "X beacons visible out of Y total BLE devices visible" would still give me some measure of things | 21:02 |
| LjL | can't complain though, it's open source, if i really wanted to, i could install Android Studio and add this... | 21:02 |
| LjL | de-facto, haha, reverse orientation is a new one to me. i don't suppose they are very maneuverable that way :P | 21:03 |
| LjL | but yeah, carts have that potentially big drawback :\ | 21:03 |
| de-facto | afaik you can see other BLE beacons in BeaconScope from Google Play store (i am not sure though) | 21:04 |
| LjL | de-facto, oh i know things where i could see them | 21:04 |
| LjL | %fdroid BLExplorer | 21:04 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, BLExplorer 1.2 (org.ligi.blexplorer) in https://f-droid.org/repo: Bluetooth Low Energy Explorer - updated 2016-11-07, see https://github.com/ligi/BLExplorer | 21:04 |
| LjL | this is one, if you have a good eye reading the hexadecimal, you can also just see the... | 21:05 |
| LjL | %fdroid UUID | 21:05 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, UUID 0xFD6F Scanner 0.9.1.13 (com.emacberry.uuid0xfd6fscan) in https://f-droid.org/repo: Scan for BluetoothLE Beacons with UUID 0xFD6F - updated 2020-10-02, see https://github.com/marq24/UUID0xFD6FTracer | 21:05 |
| LjL | the 0xfd6f beacons among those | 21:05 |
| LjL | which as the "app's" beacons | 21:05 |
| LjL | but to make a usable comparison it'd be a lot better to have an app that summarizes all these things in a few numbers on the same screen | 21:05 |
| LjL | the UUID Scanner app now tells you separately which beacons are "near", "medium", and "far" | 21:05 |
| LjL | it's based on (configurable) dBm thresholds | 21:06 |
| LjL | so of course it's kinda arbitrary, yet he added that | 21:06 |
| LjL | i think we can't do much better than having arbitrary things and then "getting used" to extracting vaguely useful information from them | 21:06 |
| de-facto | hmm BLExplorer does not work at all for me | 21:06 |
| de-facto | just a white page | 21:07 |
| LjL | de-facto, i think you mentioned that before (or someone else did). it's an old app, i guess it may have problems with newer Android version... i am running it on Android 7 still | 21:07 |
| LjL | de-facto, maybe try giving it some permissions manually if it lacks some? | 21:07 |
| LjL | anyway, i'm sure it does similar things to BeaconScope or other apps. i just have a strong preference for using apps from F-Droid as i don't even really have the Play Store installed (i can install apps from it anyway if i really want to, i just don't really want to!) | 21:08 |
| de-facto | im on Android 10 | 21:08 |
| LjL | Android 10 does have a bunch of new restrictions | 21:08 |
| de-facto | yes i would prefer open source too of course | 21:08 |
| LjL | although i don't know about BLE specifically | 21:08 |
| de-facto | thats why i tried it | 21:08 |
| LjL | i can show you a screenshot so you can decide if it's worth pursuing | 21:08 |
| LjL | don't hack my MACs please! :P | 21:10 |
| LjL | the thing at the bottom is broadcasting a contact tracing beacon | 21:11 |
| LjL | de-facto, when i look at the app info, it says it has requested no permissions... but with current SDK levels, you can't look at bluetooth without requesting a location permission... so maybe that's why it doesn't work for you: on Android 7 the older SDK may still have an exemption but not so on Android 10 | 21:12 |
| LjL | maybe if you enabled location permissions manually from adb it would work | 21:12 |
| LjL | not sure if worth it | 21:12 |
| de-facto | heh that looks nice indeed | 21:13 |
| de-facto | the uuid app seems to be quite limited only showing counts or such | 21:13 |
| LjL | de-facto, well, the UUID app shows a current count, a total count, and "near" "medium" "far", but maybe you need the versions on github for that, not sure if the latest is on F-Droid yet | 21:14 |
| LjL | if it only shows you one number, then it's old | 21:14 |
| de-facto | yeah BLExplorer does not request location services permission, that would be required for access to BLE afaik | 21:14 |
| de-facto | hmm | 21:14 |
| LjL | but anyway the difference compared to BLExplorer is that with BLExplorer you need to look at *which* transmitters are specifically sending something with 0xfd6f in it. it's not very practical to just glance at that while walking | 21:15 |
| metreo | What are you looking for? | 21:15 |
| LjL | the UUID app could be better if it recorded all "encounters" in a database and showed graphs, maybe with a GPS track attached... but the author basically says "get my closed source but free tracking app if you want that" | 21:16 |
| LjL | metreo, just an impression of how widespread use of the app is, and how "virtually crowded" a given location is, i guess | 21:16 |
| metreo | Yeah that is interesting | 21:16 |
| metreo | Many devices have been forced to transmit now? | 21:17 |
| metreo | Or is it still all optional? | 21:17 |
| de-facto | no afaik if you dont activate it by installing a tracing app (or another BLE app) they dont transmit at all | 21:17 |
| de-facto | yes | 21:17 |
| LjL | ↑ this is what the current version of the UUID app shows | 21:18 |
| de-facto | yes thats how it looks in my phone too | 21:18 |
| LjL | metreo, what he said, although at first i saw so many devices in this app (knowing that "only" 5 million people had installed the app, out of 60 million italians) that i started some paranoid thinking "maybe google has enabled it for all devices without saying it" | 21:19 |
| de-facto | and it asks for location services hence it can access BLE | 21:19 |
| LjL | but i guess it's really just that i'm in Lombardy and since it was the place hit the worst last spring, it's the place with the most installs | 21:19 |
| LjL | it would also be the place in italy with the most modern phones, since people have more money | 21:19 |
| LjL | my sister has an iPhone 6 i think and apparently it's not compatible | 21:19 |
| LjL | there are phones with Android 5 which in theory have BLE and yet are not compatible | 21:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Pandemic silver lining: Steep drop in kids' fractures: (HealthDay)—In a rare bit of good news tied to the coronavirus pandemic, researchers say pediatric fractures plummeted by nearly 60% this past spring. → https://is.gd/b9ppPC | 21:20 |
| LjL | now that doesn't mean any old phone won't work, because my Galaxy S3 works, and my Moto G works as well... but i dunno, i use LineageOS on them, with the original OS it certainly wouldn't work, so i suppose there are still a fair number of devices around where it can't really be used without "hacks" | 21:20 |
| metreo | Ljl, 6 is quite old, I think the Canadian app wasn't compatible with versions older than 8 | 21:21 |
| metreo | iPhone 8 is similar to the old SE which was only just replaced with a newer model | 21:21 |
| metreo | The 6 probably still works fine except for installing most applications | 21:22 |
| IndoAnon | ... | 21:22 |
| LjL | well, wikipedia says that the iPhone 6 was released in 2014, with a second version released in 2017, which is "kinda new" for my standards. my S3 is older, the Moto G may be older too | 21:22 |
| IndoAnon | LjL: that's the iOs paradox | 21:22 |
| metreo | Apple does an update every year incrementing the number | 21:23 |
| metreo | I had a 5 until a year or so it was fine for calls and texts | 21:23 |
| metreo | Will be getting a Pine64 soon | 21:23 |
| LjL | well, technical limitations are just there i guess, can't do much about them, but, gee, the people who are most at risk with COVID are also often NOT the people who have an iPhone 65536 | 21:23 |
| LjL | they have older phones, i think at least in the cases where the *hardware* supports BLE, every effort should be made by Google, Apple and the OEM to bring them up to compatibility | 21:24 |
| LjL | otherwise what do they tell us "we need 60% of the people to use the app, come on, us the app!" for | 21:24 |
| metreo | Seems like there is space in the market for a cheap wearable | 21:24 |
| LjL | if then most responses on social media from people who have average incomes are like "well, i tried, doesn't work on my phone" "you have to buy a €1000 new one" | 21:25 |
| de-facto | basically contact tracing apps are a neat addition to traditional tracing, but i dont think they can replace that with current technology, BLE never was meant for doing this in the first place | 21:25 |
| de-facto | so its a bit of a "hack" on current available hw anyhow | 21:25 |
| metreo | With all the money flying around they could be handling out discreet bluetooth dongles with an led that goes red if you're in trouble | 21:25 |
| de-facto | so in my opinion no other containment strategy should be ramped down or assumed to be replaced by contact tracing apps | 21:26 |
| LjL | de-facto, repurposing all sorts of drugs that we can find is also a "hack" compared to designing a COVID-specific drug. in a different realm, but still a hack. this thing hit us like lightning, and we are only hacking around it, in general | 21:26 |
| de-facto | yes of course | 21:26 |
| LjL | agreed on that, it shouldn't make anything else laxer | 21:26 |
| metreo | The problem here is they are restricting testing unless you have a reason | 21:26 |
| metreo | So if you are notified at least you would be able to obtain an early test, rather than not | 21:26 |
| metreo | Not speaking to the efficacy of the tests OFC | 21:27 |
| metreo | Which still needs a lot of improvement | 21:27 |
| LjL | yeah that's a problem with the apps as well, in the UK it was ridiculous, i hope they solved it, but initially if you tested positive, NHS and PHE centers couldn't *give* you a code to notify the app... you could only get that if you got tested at a private center run by a company affiliated with the app ;( | 21:27 |
| de-facto | i am just saying its not working nearly as well as it potentially could if hw was designed for doing so from ground up (e.g. using ping times 3.3ns per meter propagation), and when such hw would be available to the masses the pandemic hopefully is over | 21:28 |
| LjL | metreo, one reasoning (not sure if hypocritical or honest) here *against* making people with the app able to obtain an early test was that the EU said there should be no disadvantage for people *not* using the app. it had to be completely optional, so you couldn't be barred from doing anything just because you didn't have the app. so "early testing" was argued to be unfair under that reasoning. | 21:28 |
| metreo | Right but here we have a scarcity of tests, so anyone can be tested so long as you have a "good" reason for it, namely being symptomatic or being in contact with someone who is positive | 21:29 |
| LjL | de-facto, if China wanted to start producing such hardware (not as phone, but as "wearables" as metreo says) they could probably make hundreds of millions of them quickly. but what's their incentive? they already have *compulsory* apps for accessing most things. | 21:29 |
| metreo | You can't do a daily checkin which should be the case | 21:30 |
| de-facto | yet i do think such apps are a really useful concept, so i guess its one of the benefits that development of them was motivated by the pandemic and hopefully HW assisted anonymous warning apps will work really well in future smartphones | 21:30 |
| metreo | Yes if we tested everybody at once (like China), or most people everyday it would help immensly | 21:30 |
| LjL | de-facto, Google and Apple promised that the app and all data will be deleted by the end of 2020. either they'll eat up their words, or maybe there won't be a "future" for this technology :\ | 21:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Diagnosing and treating COVID-19: COVID-19 can be diagnosed several ways when looking for active infection. → https://is.gd/HMIBsl | 21:30 |
| LjL | i think they may have decided that a bit too soon | 21:31 |
| LjL | they wanted to assuage people about privacy, but that's not the way | 21:31 |
| de-facto | i thought google wanted to integrate the API in AOSP or such | 21:31 |
| LjL | nah not in AOSP | 21:31 |
| LjL | that was said at the beginning, but i think it was never true | 21:31 |
| de-facto | ok maybe thats outdated info then | 21:31 |
| LjL | what they are going to do according to the information i have is | 21:31 |
| LjL | for countries that don't have an app or the willingness/resources to develop one | 21:32 |
| LjL | they will have an "Exposure Notification Express" thing | 21:32 |
| LjL | where, in the case of Google, the OS will prompt you to install Google's "generic" app which each country will be able to customize in simple ways, with branding, custom text, etc | 21:32 |
| metreo | Google and Apple "deleting" data should be taken in the context of them not really doing it | 21:32 |
| LjL | but without having to actually build an app from the ground app | 21:32 |
| de-facto | ok like a template for countries not willing to incubate it themselves | 21:33 |
| LjL | and in the case of Apple, i believe they do intend to just make it part of the system without an app involved, but i have no idea if Apple as anything updatable the way the Google Play Services are, so i won't speak much about Apple | 21:33 |
| LjL | but in the case of Google, it seems pretty clear that all of this will be part of the Play Services and of a generic app on the Play Store that will get "semi-auto-installed", not of AOSP | 21:33 |
| LjL | de-facto, yeah, something like that | 21:34 |
| LjL | metreo, it doesn't really matter if they don't really do it... if they want to pretend they do it, then they have to stop making the technology available (unless they say they stop then continue using it anyway, but it's easy to see that with any BLE detector!) | 21:34 |
| LjL | i mean if they want to pretend they delete the app and data | 21:34 |
| metreo | I mean they can pretty much get whatever information they want out of their ecosystems either way | 21:35 |
| metreo | And there are hundreds of ways of extracting and retaining information while still "deleting" the sources | 21:36 |
| metreo | Apple is running ads about how "private" iOS is which is laughable | 21:36 |
| metreo | It's the most sophisticated spy device on the market | 21:37 |
| LjL | https://developer.apple.com/documentation/exposurenotification/supporting_exposure_notifications_express | 21:37 |
| LjL | https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dday.it%2Fredazione%2F36767%2Fios-137-cosa-e-exposure-notification-express-e-perche-non-impattera-su-immuni | 21:38 |
| metreo | Yeah that was after the Canadian government spent millions developing that exact functionality in house :'( | 21:38 |
| LjL | "However, the two companies have chosen a different way to handle it. Apple has integrated this template in iOS 13.7, and depending on where the person is located the iPhone will check if it is among those countries that have joined Exposure Notification Express and will propose to install the notification system, downloading the profile for that specific. country. Google, on the other hand, will create a real application, which will have to be compiled | 21:38 |
| LjL | and uploaded to the store: the source code of this application will be made public." | 21:38 |
| metreo | It will impact immunity if more people are getting tested is my only point, not to disagree with you | 21:39 |
| LjL | "Basically, with Exposure Notification Express nothing changes : it is only help given by Apple and Google to those who are having difficulty creating an infrastructure quickly, and it will be Apple and Google to worry about updates and the bug fix, to the health authority of the country will only touch the management of the servers and of course any positive contacts." | 21:39 |
| LjL | (bad translation, but understandable) | 21:39 |
| LjL | not disagreeing with you either, i'm just throwing the information i find about this "new" system | 21:39 |
| metreo | It's Apple's beacon scheme rebaked | 21:40 |
| metreo | They had a "feature" which wanted to track you as you walk through a department store so they could serve ads | 21:40 |
| de-facto | hmm the question is if there would be a way to do the cluster tracing in the past of detected cases and broadcast to everyone potentially involved in such a superspread event somehow is technically possible in an automated way | 21:40 |
| LjL | the current system is not really the beacon scheme rebaked though | 21:41 |
| LjL | it's relatively robust against actual "spy" tracking | 21:41 |
| LjL | it's true that it's kinda pointless when most phones *also* feature "spy" tracking | 21:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: COVID-19 cardiac involvement on the rise: In the early stages of the COVID-19 pandemic, the disease was recognized as a respiratory virus. Research is showing that the SARS-CoV-2 virus is causing more significant cardiac issues than initially thought. → https://is.gd/bThLjw | 21:41 |
| LjL | but the exposure notification protocol itself, aside from other things people have on their phones, is thought out reasonably well imo | 21:41 |
| metreo | Well okay, but any iOS App has access to a lot of sophisticated telemetry | 21:41 |
| metreo | It's very interesting technology to be sure | 21:42 |
| metreo | I appreciate that | 21:42 |
| LjL | i need to have dinner, back in a bit | 21:42 |
| de-facto | enjoy :) | 21:42 |
| de-facto | Buon appetito! | 21:43 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for World: +18712 cases (now 36.4 million), +261 deaths (now 1.1 million) since an hour ago — US: +12218 cases (now 7.8 million), +193 deaths (now 216411) since an hour ago — India: +3228 cases (now 6.8 million), +33 deaths (now 105552) since 2 hours ago — Wisconsin, US: +2319 cases (now 138698), +16 deaths (now 1415) since a day ago | 21:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: The COVID-19 pandemic may make getting health insurance harder. Here's why: The high cost of treating COVID-19, its long-term health complications for those who recover, and the economic ramifications of the pandemic are driving home the value of the protections created under the Affordable Care Act - and how much trouble many [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/jn1F7V | 21:52 |
| david_north | de-facto | 21:59 |
| de-facto | david_north ? | 22:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): Trump advisor Corey Lewandowski spotted at football game without mask after saying he would self-isolate due to coronavirus concern → https://is.gd/7rcSSD | 22:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Europe hits 6m cases as Scotland, Brussels shut bars: With Europe topping six million coronavirus cases, Scotland and Brussels became the latest to introduce curbs on alcohol consumption Wednesday, while experts detailed the hugely divergent consequences of the pandemic for the world's richest and poorest. → https://is.gd/0aynHe | 22:35 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for South Dakota, US: +1030 cases (now 25906), +10 deaths (now 258) since a day ago — World: +3600 cases (now 36.4 million), +21 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 47 minutes ago — US: +2693 cases (now 7.8 million), +13 deaths (now 216424) since 47 minutes ago — Curacao: +29 cases (now 505) since a day ago | 22:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from WebMD: Risk of Severe COVID May Hinge on Type of Asthma: Some studies have suggested that people who have asthma caused by something other than allergies -- exercise, stress, air pollution, weather conditions -- might have an increased risk of severe COVID-19. → https://is.gd/LqKLZy | 22:56 |
| matse | does anybody seriously think, that everyday masks protect against covid? | 23:48 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for World: +31406 cases (now 36.5 million), +814 deaths (now 1.1 million) since an hour ago — Brazil: +22163 cases (now 5.0 million), +469 deaths (now 148228) since 5 hours ago — Bulgaria: +437 cases (now 22743), +11 deaths (now 873) since a day ago — US: +4652 cases (now 7.8 million), +143 deaths (now 216567) since an hour ago | 23:51 |
| LjL | matse, the simple answer to that is, yes, sure, many do | 23:55 |
| LjL | and they do it seriously, COVID is not much of a laughing matter really | 23:55 |
| LjL | of course it's easier to believe ordinary cloth or surgical masks protect *others*, which is important, but there are also decent indications that they protect the wearer too | 23:56 |
| matse | LjL: hmm maybe you have some evidence for it? I seriously didn't find any but lots agaist it, see e.g. https://swprs.org/face-masks-evidence/ | 23:56 |
| LjL | for example there is a study about flu (not the same virus, but just for comparison) where they found that healthcare workers dealing with flu patients had about the same incidence of flu whether they wore N95 masks or surgical masks. so it would appear in a clinical setting, surgical masks are just as protective as N95 masks, for flu | 23:56 |
| matse | LjL: any sources for your statements? | 23:56 |
| LjL | matse, the channel topic has https://covid19.specops.network where i have gathered a number of links. tinwhiskers in particular provided some about masks, i think, and might have more. | 23:57 |
| matse | LjL: or one could say none of these helps :x | 23:57 |
| LjL | yes, that study does not rule that possibility out, for sure. it was meant only as a comparison between the two types. | 23:58 |
| Guest81002 | matse: N95 masks are used to protect You from Tuberulosis, Covid, Medical/Cloth/Neck Gaiters are more to protect others From You | 23:58 |
| matse | LjL: many studies that I have read seem to confound correlation with causality... | 23:58 |
| LjL | the bane of all science | 23:58 |
| matse | LjL: I really wonder how people can write some statements... e.g. there was a research in Leipzig... and to be honest if one of my students would write something like this he would just fail | 23:59 |
| Guest81002 | matse: it's a bit like Global Heating Crisis, no matter than data, folks will cherry pick for their purposes | 23:59 |
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