| Haley[m] | %cases USA | 00:03 |
|---|---|---|
| Brainstorm | Haley[m]: In US, there have been 7.8 million confirmed cases (2.4% of the population) and 217562 deaths (2.8% of cases) as of 15 minutes ago. 114.1 million tests were performed (6.9% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.0% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 4.2% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data. | 00:03 |
| Haley[m] | %cases france | 00:03 |
| Brainstorm | Haley[m]: In France, there have been 671638 confirmed cases (1.0% of the population) and 32521 deaths (4.8% of cases) as of 3 hours ago. 11.9 million tests were performed (5.6% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=France for time series data. | 00:03 |
| Haley[m] | %cases germany | 00:04 |
| Brainstorm | Haley[m]: In Germany, there have been 315454 confirmed cases (0.4% of the population) and 9667 deaths (3.1% of cases) as of 49 minutes ago. 18.1 million tests were performed (1.7% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.7% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 3.5% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Germany for time series data. | 00:04 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Colorado, US: +863 cases (now 75785), +10 deaths (now 2095) since 23 hours ago — World: +3902 cases (now 36.8 million), +29 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 50 minutes ago — US: +2873 cases (now 7.8 million), +22 deaths (now 217576) since 50 minutes ago — Texas, US: +1264 cases (now 823137), +7 deaths (now 16858) since 50 minutes ago | 00:05 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: White House head of security is 'very ill' with coronavirus, report says (10027 votes) | https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/coronavirus-white-house-head-security-trump-covid-crede-bailey-b878326.html?=54 | https://redd.it/j7fvw2 | 00:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Q&A: Integrating work at home: DEAR MAYO CLINIC: I have been working from home since the COVID-19 pandemic began, and my company recently shared that we would be continuing to do so. In the beginning, it was difficult for me to juggle working remotely with my children's online schooling and finding time for myself. Do you have [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/LpQuh9 | 00:13 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Bulgaria: +516 cases (now 23259), +7 deaths (now 880) since a day ago — World: +10867 cases (now 36.8 million), +196 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 16 minutes ago — Colombia: +8495 cases (now 886179), +151 deaths (now 27331) since 18 hours ago — US: +1735 cases (now 7.8 million), +31 deaths (now 217607) since 16 minutes ago | 00:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: Pelosi says no stand-alone aid for airlines without bigger stimulus bill: Pelosi's comments come two days after President Donald Trump abruptly called off talks for a national coronavirus package, but urged additional aid for the ailing airline sector. → https://is.gd/QQDDms | 00:34 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for World: +16509 cases (now 36.8 million), +489 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 16 minutes ago — Argentina: +15454 cases (now 856369), +484 deaths (now 22710) since 23 hours ago — Norway: +124 cases (now 15221) since 8 hours ago — US: +549 cases (now 7.8 million), +2 deaths (now 217609) since 16 minutes ago | 00:35 |
| ryouma | long covid https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02796-2 | 00:37 |
| LjL | ryouma, why is "long COVID" felt as necessarily better than "chronic COVID"? it may well be permanent in some cases, we don't know yet, but even if it isn't, "chronic" is strictly used for conditions that are persistent after an acute phase, it doesn't have to mean they're permanent; on the other hand, "long" may still suggest to people that, yes, it's longer than the normal course, but it goes away after a while | 01:10 |
| LjL | uhm | 01:15 |
| LjL | > Words such as ‘post’, ‘syndrome’ and ‘chronic’ risk delegitimizing suffering, the authors argue, and that will make it harder for people to access care. | 01:15 |
| LjL | i get it for "post", but those other ones are just very legitimate medical terms | 01:15 |
| ryouma | this type of nomenclature question is a really, really large and complex topic that i cannot do justice to, even if i could do so physically. | 01:37 |
| ryouma | medical terms are much less unambiguous than one might expect | 01:38 |
| ryouma | the persecution stuff is real | 01:41 |
| ryouma | is aids a syndrome? before it was called grid. some definitions of syndrome and disease would tell you to do it the othr way around. some might not. some would say historical precedence. there are who rules. and so on. | 01:41 |
| ryouma | as for politics, you know about grid | 01:44 |
| ryouma | imagine having a disease called stiff person syndrome and trying to get taken seriously. it is a serious disease. | 01:44 |
| ryouma | or imagine chronic fatigue syndrome, which sounds like "chronic complainer", "i'm tired too", and "me-too syndrome" all wrapped up in one... | 01:44 |
| ryouma | ... and freedom of information act requests yielded the not-surprising information that that name was chosen in the 1980s at the cdc meeting aftter the incline village and lyndonville outbreaks, to replace the existing name, m.e., specifically in order to help insurance companies. | 01:45 |
| ryouma | it gets really complex | 01:45 |
| ryouma | the biggest funder of university research globally is the nih. the nih does not take chronic diseases seriously. not that a name would change that, but still. in any case, i say long covid just from what i have read and intuited, but i will change it if i learn of a better term. | 01:47 |
| ryouma | chronic covid would imply to some that the virus is still there | 01:47 |
| ryouma | chronic lyme could, in principle, be not having the spirochete still there... | 01:48 |
| ryouma | but we don't know in the case of covid and i am not up on the latest on lyme. there is enormous politics in the name of chronic lyme vs. other names for lyme. | 01:48 |
| ryouma | it goes on forever and my ignorance is great | 01:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: When Young People Get COVID-19, Infections Soon Rise Among Older Adults → https://is.gd/gztxMf | 01:50 |
| ryouma | (in general chronic diseases are not funded appropriately or taken seriously. aids is an exception. it is funded well and is sometimes considered chronic -- when treated.) | 01:50 |
| ryouma | (help insurance companies not have to pay*) | 01:53 |
| LjL | i understand it took a good while for AIDS to get there | 01:54 |
| LjL | also, AIDS kill you, ME/CFS probably doesn't. what doesn't kill you doesn't make you stronger at all, we know that, and yet we're often here repeating that in COVID, deaths are not all that matters, because clearly, they *seem* to be all that matters to some | 01:55 |
| ryouma | m.e. can kill you. lyme can kill you. we don't know what long covid does. | 01:56 |
| LjL | so AIDS may have become better funded than other things because unless you "make" it chronic, it just kills, and that gets taken more seriously | 01:56 |
| LjL | ryouma, AIDS quite definitely kills you though, i don't think we know of (m)any cases of spontaneous remission and people just lived | 01:56 |
| LjL | (without drugs) | 01:56 |
| ryouma | 1% don't allow the retrovirus into their cells | 01:56 |
| ryouma | genetics | 01:56 |
| LjL | true, there's those, i remember reading about that | 01:57 |
| ryouma | it is certainly true that aids was killing a lot | 01:57 |
| ryouma | (and still is where there is no good treatment) | 01:57 |
| LjL | it still is, just not in "our" world | 01:57 |
| LjL | right | 01:57 |
| ryouma | but: we cannot leap from that to why it is taken seriously. we need to think about it. | 01:57 |
| ryouma | it was NOT taken seriously in the beginning. that is a clue. | 01:57 |
| ryouma | even when they were dying. | 01:58 |
| LjL | i don't know how related it is, but in the intervening years there has been a rather radical shift of views on being gay | 01:58 |
| ryouma | there was good activism, hollywood was affected, etc. note that during the same period, major outbreaks of m.e. (what you call me/cfs) started popping up all over, and lyme started becomeing serious. it is speculated that authorities did not want another aids. | 01:58 |
| ryouma | right i shoul dhave mentioned that the gay and lesbian community really really cared about aids, so really really helped with activism. and those who wanted to support them did too. and college students feared getting it (even though safe sex etc.). and various factors. | 01:59 |
| ryouma | also activism was able to get away with a lot of stuff that would not be possible today. | 02:00 |
| ryouma | radical stuff that would be cracked down on these days before even begininng | 02:00 |
| LjL | not living in a freer world very much, are we | 02:00 |
| ryouma | i don't know why aids got taken seriously, not saying i do | 02:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Coronavirus killing three times more people than flu and pneumonia combined → https://is.gd/UmYSaP | 02:01 |
| ryouma | yeah | 02:01 |
| ryouma | as for m.e. vs. long covid (part of which might /be/ m.e.) it is like this: 2019: you have been "fatigued" for 60 years now? i'm tired too. it is correct that the medical industry, family, friends, and society withholds science and services from you and completely abandons you to rot. bedridden and housebound SHOULD rot. your 80 symptoms don't exist. you don't exist. you should not exist in front of me. if po | 02:02 |
| ryouma | licy maims you, that is moral and in accordance with human rights because you are subhuman. | 02:02 |
| ryouma | 2020: long covid? you can be fatigued potentially for the rest of your life? HOLY FUCK THIS FATIGUE STUFF IS REALLY SERIOUS. 80 SYMPTOMS? I JUST OVERLOADED MY ABILITY TO EVEN THINK ABOUT THIS. | 02:02 |
| LjL | ryouma, anyway i didn't want to make it sound like a "leap" about death being the difference, but i just thought of it naturally because we often mention in COVID how the deaths are not all that matters, and yet are often taken to be | 02:02 |
| ryouma | ah | 02:02 |
| Dr_Sleep | you know calling it "AIDS" I believe is wrong | 02:02 |
| LjL | oh dear | 02:03 |
| LjL | what is wrong about it | 02:03 |
| ryouma | it might be to some, because the s part was carried along historically, and some have strict definitions for syndrome | 02:03 |
| Dr_Sleep | there's the virus, then there is a disease, not conflating them matters | 02:03 |
| ryouma | but malaria is caused by a pathogen, not bad air (mal aria) | 02:03 |
| ryouma | right | 02:04 |
| LjL | ryouma, uhm, you just sounded like you are criticizing the emphasis on long COVID, but until now, i thought you were quite a spearheader of its existence and need for recognition | 02:04 |
| LjL | or did i misinterpret what you said | 02:04 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Oregon, US: +482 cases (now 36116), +11 deaths (now 594) since a day ago — World: +11856 cases (now 36.9 million), +236 deaths (now 1.1 million) since an hour ago — US: +4523 cases (now 7.8 million), +46 deaths (now 217655) since an hour ago — Peru: +2952 cases (now 838614), +89 deaths (now 33098) since 22 hours ago | 02:06 |
| LjL | Dr_Sleep, yes, well, when i said "AIDS kills you", i believe that's accurate, in that HIV doesn't kill you until after it actually manifests as AIDS. that's for an example of the things i said... we mentioned it a lot more times, and i'm sure at some points "HIV" or "HIV/AIDS" should have been said instead, but can you point to a place where it was really really wrong and it was imperative to say HIV instead? | 02:06 |
| Dr_Sleep | All people with AIDS have HIV, but not everyone with HIV has or ever develops AIDS. | 02:06 |
| ryouma | you honor me too much by calling me a spearheader but i do strongly support long covid folk being taken seriously | 02:06 |
| ryouma | i am just describing a difference in opinion about similar diseases | 02:07 |
| ryouma | where the opinion changed quickly | 02:07 |
| ryouma | i fear long covid population is in for a long long battle to be taken seriously despite the favorable press currently | 02:08 |
| Dr_Sleep | LjL: na your right, I didn't read the full discussion | 02:09 |
| LjL | ryouma, i think - don't take it as a leap though, it's just my current brainstorming thought ;) - that the reason people see it differently is that most people don't feel threatened by ME/CFS because they don't have it and they don't see an "easy route" for acquiring it (yes: if they researched, they'd find that they can develop it after a "mild" viral disease or other things, but they typically don't research it, good for them maybe); with long COVID on | 02:09 |
| LjL | the other hand, well, COVID is the first and foremost thought of just about *everyone* right now, so any consequence of COVID is thought of as something personally threatening | 02:09 |
| ryouma | i am not intending to criticize the emphasis on long covid. i am intending to criticize parts of the human race that does not take things seriously that need to be taken seriously. and persecutes. and musing on the sudden turnaround. | 02:10 |
| LjL | ryouma, of course i'm talking about "average" people. those who actually, genuinely believe people with ME/CFS are subhuman or things like that are just... well, subhuman | 02:10 |
| ryouma | your theory is a good theory and is among the top theories | 02:11 |
| LjL | ryouma, well i can say that what i described is sort of true for myself. i don't consider people with ME/CFS subhuman and when i read things about the disease, syndrome or whatever you call it, they sound scary and i definitely wouldn't want to have it. but... "it's not my battle" :\ like, there are so many things going on in the world that people just ignore some if they don't affect them personally or in their family or friends etc | 02:12 |
| ryouma | well that's one thing. but widespread and systematic persecution does exist. and is a different thing. | 02:13 |
| LjL | climate change is scary, ME/CFS is scary, but with the latter, i can reasonably hope it won't affect me, even though it could - and also, diseases are something intimately scary that people tend to either avoid thinking about them as much as they can, or at the other extreme, fixate on them (if anything i'm in the latter category) | 02:13 |
| ryouma | widespread and systematic attack on a civiilian population to word it more precisely for a certain purpose | 02:14 |
| LjL | ryouma, i do not deny that, but i am mostly unaware of it except for the things you've told me. but, i'm sure most people were "unaware" that gay people were being systematically persecuted until the advocacy started being heard quite loudly | 02:14 |
| LjL | ryouma, eh, i miss that purpose i'm afraid | 02:15 |
| ryouma | aversion therapy and such? | 02:15 |
| LjL | ryouma, among many other things. i wasn't thinking of that specifically, although i actually watched a movie about conversion therapy just yesterday. but when i was growing up, in school, etc, being gay was just shameful and made not-so-innocent fun of... even though it was during years where things were *already* changing, and it was *already* not so shameful | 02:16 |
| LjL | also years when, not years where | 02:16 |
| LjL | ryouma, "certain purpose": you think ME stems from a biological attack? i remember that was that big "cluster" that was under-studied, but i'm sorry if i forget possible causes behind it. my brain is sort of foggy for likely entirely different reasons and my memory is very bad currently. | 02:19 |
| ryouma | certainly i might in principle have been sloppy saying aids when i meant hiv. i won't check backscroll to check. it was short for hiv/aids in my head anyway. | 02:19 |
| ryouma | no, i don't think m.e. is caused by a biological weapon | 02:20 |
| LjL | why do you say "civilian population" specifically? | 02:20 |
| ryouma | because that's wording from a law. to answer the next question, the law says civilian because laws, apparently, sometimes evolve. and the law evolved from a/ war-related law/laws. and it is vestigial. although it is still taken seriously depending on version of the law. | 02:21 |
| LjL | ah | 02:21 |
| ryouma | the population that needs to care about that is gulf war syndrome/illness/disease | 02:22 |
| ryouma | typically jurispriudence says that you're a civilian population even if you have some military, iirc | 02:22 |
| LjL | ah, i see. keep in mind even though i'm more familiar with US stuff that the average italian, i'm still not from there | 02:22 |
| ryouma | the law exists in more than 100 countries most likely | 02:23 |
| ryouma | and there are 11 international texts of it | 02:23 |
| ryouma | (not all enforced) | 02:24 |
| ryouma | (currently) | 02:24 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: Arizona saw a 75% drop in COVID-19 cases after mask mandate, closures (10221 votes) | https://www.deseret.com/u-s-world/2020/10/8/21505713/coronavirus-arizona-covid-19-cdc-study?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=deseretnews&utm_campaign=facebookpage&fbclid=IwAR2QsS8wZN1Th5y1_8acjTNLo2wrxDKdFs3YL3kz64ferrBlH-nFGM-JaS8 | https://redd.it/j7i3th | 02:24 |
| ryouma | az's curve follows opening up too soon and then more or less mask mandates. the mask mandates were not allowed by the governor and then the governor allowed the cities to make their own rules. | 02:26 |
| LjL | many of these "studies" on places using masks vs not, and other things, are way too coarse | 02:28 |
| LjL | like... what was the last one i remember? gah | 02:28 |
| LjL | anyway, i've seen more than one study measuring things in terms of "countries" | 02:28 |
| LjL | when they would really only make sense when seen on *individuals* | 02:28 |
| ryouma | i did not read this article. all i know is the fit to the opening up too soon was good. and then it got better (waves hands) after mask mandates. | 02:28 |
| xrogaan | What's the data on sars-cov2 tail? Does everybody that got the disease gets underlying issues later on? | 02:29 |
| ryouma | whether the latter was causal idk. but the former was rather correlative. | 02:29 |
| ryouma | xrogaan: i have not seen anything definitive yet | 02:29 |
| LjL | which is a lot more expensive of an experiment to run, but... yeah. there are just too many confounding factors when you say "we think that blah blah vaccination may protect against covid because countries where it's done have lower rates" (based on something i vaguely remember reading) | 02:29 |
| tinwhiskers | xrogaan: no. Most people fully recover (many get no symptoms at all) | 02:29 |
| tinwhiskers | how many get long-lasting issues is yet to be seen of course since that requires time to see. | 02:30 |
| LjL | and i would mention heart problems but apparently the study that said some 70% of people studied got them was heavily criticized later | 02:30 |
| LjL | and i should probably remove it from my list, or make a note | 02:30 |
| LjL | but i haven't researched the criticism, except for hearing about it in a youtube video :\ | 02:31 |
| LjL | (by a doctor, but many people are doctors) | 02:31 |
| xrogaan | I mean, we have more than 6 months of data and it doesn't look promising. | 02:31 |
| ryouma | s/it got better/cases went down (wasn't saying the fit got better) | 02:31 |
| xrogaan | oh, study wasn't accurate maybe, ok. | 02:31 |
| tinwhiskers | xrogaan: bear in mind you're not hearing much news about those who have recovered, so it's biased. | 02:32 |
| ryouma | i have seen numbers all over the place for various things | 02:32 |
| tinwhiskers | I mean, fully recovered. | 02:32 |
| ryouma | what i have heard in a few places is that sometimes they tell you you are fully recovered and then you aren't and you go around from doctor to doctor and they don't do anything for you or, often, even acknowledge that you aren't | 02:33 |
| xrogaan | Not knowing is really annoying. | 02:33 |
| LjL | xrogaan, it doesn't look very promising but indeed, many of these things are preprints and should be taken with a grain of salt. but still, even with that study, i have seen no claim that *everyone* gets consequences. i don't feel i can completely rule it out, even in people who get no symptoms, honestly. but so far... nope | 02:33 |
| tinwhiskers | xrogaan: also, considering normal pneumonia usually takes 3 months, sometimes more to recover from, not a lot of time has passed yet. | 02:33 |
| LjL | not knowing is really annoying, but being annoyed at lack of knowledge is what caused us to seek knowledge, and gain knowledge :P | 02:33 |
| tinwhiskers | wise words :-) | 02:34 |
| xrogaan | I have to convince my family members to not be jackasses, but it's hard without concrete example. | 02:34 |
| tinwhiskers | mmmm | 02:34 |
| ryouma | maybe try the patient forums for long covid / long haulers / etc. some have done at least one study. | 02:35 |
| xrogaan | Our situation isn't different than early 2020, disease is still there and we're not immune. Yet they start being fed up with the sanitary measures. | 02:35 |
| tinwhiskers | well, it seems it's pretty normal to present studies that back up your particular viewpoint to make a point, so you can always do that ;-) | 02:35 |
| ryouma | they'd likely have faqs | 02:35 |
| ryouma | i suspect they operated pretty carefully partlyu to avoid that criticism | 02:36 |
| ryouma | but you can check for yourself | 02:36 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, you may be interested in the video i watched that talked about that study (not exclusively). but you need 25 minutes to spend and i suppose while you may find some food for thought it isn't *crammed* with groundbreaking ideas, it's just one of many COVID videos that Google happened to propose to me. still, it made me realize that i hadn't really taken that study about heart issues being widespread very critically. | 02:36 |
| LjL | some people believe in what calms their fears; i think i tend to believe in what fuels my fears instead | 02:36 |
| tinwhiskers | heh. yeah. | 02:37 |
| tinwhiskers | Sure, what's the link? You may have noticed I'm very bored today :-) | 02:37 |
| LjL | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7leWXMr3ayk | 02:37 |
| tinwhiskers | ta | 02:37 |
| xrogaan | Recently the Belgian government pushed a guideline saying that people shouldn't meet in groups of more than 4 people. Wasn't communicated quite properly as my father turned around and said "what about families of 5?" | 02:37 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Remdesivir for the Treatment of Covid-19 — Final Report (81 votes) | https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2007764 | https://redd.it/j7mgky | 02:37 |
| LjL | xrogaan, the "no more than N people" (N often being 6) seems to be getting popular. i think the UK started it | 02:38 |
| LjL | at least, they started it with these small numbers. of course "no more than 50 people at events" or things like those were already in place in various countries, but that's not quite the same thing | 02:38 |
| xrogaan | It's implied those people don't wear masks. With masks then it's acceptable to have bigger numbers. It's really to prevent spreading the disease as people visits each other. | 02:39 |
| LjL | uhm | 02:39 |
| tinwhiskers | NZ communicated that as in groups of size X *outside your bubble*. The bubble narrative was fairly consistently defined at the outset. Communication was very good. | 02:39 |
| LjL | i think people who visit each other while not being part of the same household should just wear masks *anyway* :\ | 02:40 |
| xrogaan | yeah, well, they don't. | 02:40 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, oh yeah the UK had a "bubble" thing too. saying "a", not "the", because i don't really know if it was defined in the same term. i remember they had a "choose your n friends to make a bubble for the next months, because you may have to only ever see those" | 02:41 |
| xrogaan | Resurgence of cases in the various European countries show that people do not believe the disease to be such a big deal. | 02:41 |
| LjL | speaking of the UK, anyone noticed that even after the ridiculous "Excel backlog" cases have now been fully(?) accounted for, the UK still had 16k cases today? | 02:41 |
| xrogaan | Had people understood the principle early 2020, they would be wearing masks and be generally cautious. | 02:41 |
| LjL | how much of a coincidence is it that this backlog was added just in between going from 7k to 16k daily? | 02:41 |
| LjL | i think it muddies the water for the media | 02:42 |
| LjL | xrogaan, i don't disagree with you, but i think it's not really fully clear what "resurgence of disease" is due to. i'd still use caution on what the hell is actually happening and why. | 02:42 |
| tinwhiskers | initially our level 4 bubbles were much more strict than that. Family and dependants only, but different levels allowed for wider I think when we went to level 3 you could choose some additional bubble-mates like in the UK. | 02:42 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, i don't remember if i clarified this with anyone about the UK (i'd ask dTal but i suspect his bubble is himself :P) but do you know how that works, are you supposed to, like, write down your presumed bubble-mates somewhere official, so if police catches you with other people you can show them the papers? | 02:43 |
| dTal | I've never heard of any bubble registration scheme | 02:44 |
| LjL | which would be similar but sort of even more uncomfortable than back when we had to fill forms for the reasons we were going anywhere, during lockdown :\ | 02:44 |
| tinwhiskers | of course when I say we, I wasn't there so I should really say "they". I didn't go through it so don't really know the exact details. | 02:44 |
| dTal | my bubble is an amorphous blob involving my boss and his immediate family | 02:44 |
| ryouma | "certain purpose" just referred to the wording. attack refers to a course of conduct consisting of a potentially diverse set of acts against a population, not to a military-style attack. | 02:44 |
| LjL | dTal, but then i can't imagine how they'd enforce it except for just noticing whether there's more than 6 people hanging out and they're not the same family | 02:44 |
| ryouma | (that was merely a clarification not an invitation to further disussion; i am at my limit) | 02:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: Pelosi says no stand-alone aid for airlines without bigger stimulus bill: Pelosi's comments come two days after President Donald Trump abruptly called off talks for a national coronavirus package, but urged additional aid for the ailing airline sector. → https://is.gd/QQDDms | 02:45 |
| LjL | ryouma, understood | 02:45 |
| tinwhiskers | I think the most successful countries may have been those that didn't need so much policing because a high enough proportion of the population believed in the advice to make a difference. There's always going to be those who refuse but you don't need 100% adherence to be effective. | 02:46 |
| ryouma | (basically policies) | 02:46 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, then explain to me why italy was praised for our behavior in stemming the first wave? you know, we being italians and everything :P | 02:47 |
| LjL | oh wait, it was praised *by the WHO*, i always forget that part ;) | 02:47 |
| tinwhiskers | heh | 02:48 |
| tinwhiskers | well, as you reported often they really didn't adhere to the rules, so I guess the WHO just got fed a success story. | 02:48 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, but from what i've heard, at least in my area (let me not get into in-"racism" but eeeeeh not every part of italy is the same), they adhered more than they did in, say, the UK | 02:49 |
| tinwhiskers | ah. ok | 02:49 |
| LjL | and yet the UK is usually thought of (here) as a place with much more rigid respect of rules. queues, etc. | 02:49 |
| LjL | that's the cliché, but just as an easy example. | 02:50 |
| tinwhiskers | well, I'll just ignore that comment and stick to believing how the people wilfully support the policies is nearly as important as the policies themselves :-) | 02:50 |
| LjL | well | 02:50 |
| LjL | it may still be true even with the comment | 02:51 |
| tinwhiskers | interesting though. thanks. | 02:51 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Angola: +233 cases (now 5958) since 2 days ago — France: +9090 cases (now 682614) since 6 hours ago — World: +1303 cases (now 36.9 million), +14 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 48 minutes ago — Venezuela: +615 cases (now 81019), +7 deaths (now 678) since 23 hours ago | 02:51 |
| LjL | we should merely introduce a concept that maybe in certain situations, and/or depending on how things are communicated, people who are normally "expected" to respect the rules more, respect them less, and/or vice versa | 02:51 |
| tinwhiskers | agreed | 02:51 |
| LjL | in other words, maybe Italians respected the rules more than Britons (or Americans... but that's a lot more complicated) because the communication sucked slightly less, although, it still sucked | 02:52 |
| tinwhiskers | seems to cover our bases anyway | 02:52 |
| LjL | the initial "herd immunity, no wait, we were just kidding" thing in the UK might not have helped | 02:52 |
| tinwhiskers | life is never *that* black and white so I'm sure you're right | 02:53 |
| tinwhiskers | that is, real life is complicated | 02:53 |
| ryouma | us attitudes might be partly propaganda-related | 02:53 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, here's another thought, although i may be repeating myself but i don't remember where i said it last... i think in Italy, lately, we're hearing a lot about how badly France is doing on our main media. well, not "a lot", but it's like the main country we hear about (outside from the eternal US discussions) | 02:53 |
| tinwhiskers | certainly | 02:53 |
| ryouma | certainly politically-related | 02:53 |
| LjL | and yet, Spain and now the UK are doing about as badly as France, or worse | 02:54 |
| LjL | but they seem to be mangling their outwards numbers more | 02:54 |
| LjL | it's easy to see through that and find the "real" numbers (not "real" in the sense of the truest truth, just the numbers that are compatible with the kind other countries give) | 02:54 |
| tinwhiskers | hmmm. ok | 02:54 |
| LjL | but media, especially foreign media making a half-assed job of keeping tabs on other countries, may not really do that | 02:54 |
| ryouma | LjL: also brexit and other divisions in uk might be a factor | 02:55 |
| LjL | but at the same time, we get to hear about some of the measures the UK is enacting, Paris is enacting, Madrid is enacting... | 02:55 |
| LjL | whether we hear about these measures in conjunction or NOT in conjunction with "they're doing bad!" data may very well make a difference on what we think of those measures | 02:55 |
| tinwhiskers | And what's happening in Italy? | 02:55 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, how would i know? i know almost no Italians on IRC! ;) | 02:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: Green Bay on 'verge of a crisis' as virus overwhelms hospitals, Wisconsin doctor says: "We see a frighteningly rising trend of Covid positivity rate above 20% in our community," Bellin Hospital Emergency Department Medical Director Paul Casey told CNBC's Shepard Smith. → https://is.gd/IzaHKL | 02:56 |
| tinwhiskers | lol | 02:56 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, well, in Italy, currently, we're having the daily increment grow by 1000 a day, since a few days ago. so now we're at 4500 whereas we were at 1500 just days ago, and i expect it's going to be around 5000 tomorrow (maybe more, but thursday is generally the day with the most tests) | 02:57 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, so far, as a result of the rise, we've had a new law mandating masks outdoors. they were already mandatory indoors except for eating and drinking | 02:57 |
| tinwhiskers | I see | 02:57 |
| LjL | outdoor mask use may not be very useful, but i am not opposed to it, i think people should be in the mindset that they should mostly just be wearing it and trying to forget about its presence | 02:58 |
| LjL | however i am concerned that we aren't doing some other potentially key things, and as a matter of fact, our PM and some ministers are actively saying we WILL NOT do those things | 02:58 |
| LjL | the minister of educations said schools are NOT responsible for the rise (how does she know?) | 02:58 |
| tinwhiskers | What was your daily count during the first "peak"? | 02:58 |
| LjL | PM Conte repeatedly said that we WILL NOT have a second lockdown, a curfew, nor will we be closing pubs and restaurants | 02:59 |
| tinwhiskers | oh dear. never say never. | 02:59 |
| LjL | i don't like these statements that seem to preclude measures that might turn out to be needed. let me look up the first peak count | 02:59 |
| LjL | indeed | 02:59 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, around 6500 was our spring peak | 03:00 |
| tinwhiskers | oh. ok | 03:01 |
| LjL | with fewer tests, probably (i'll look that up too) but... we're not too far | 03:01 |
| tinwhiskers | right | 03:01 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, okay, well, the +6500 was with 26000 tests, while today, the +4500 is with 128000 tests | 03:02 |
| LjL | not really comparable | 03:02 |
| tinwhiskers | wow | 03:02 |
| tinwhiskers | So you may well already be as bad now | 03:03 |
| LjL | also, it was concentrated in Lombardy, now Lombardy is still bad, but it's everywhere, and Latium and Campania are more concerning | 03:03 |
| tinwhiskers | oh yeah, there is that | 03:03 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, hm? why do you say that? we have tested much more, so in my mind the idea is that we should be *better* now. we have more coverage, so we're seeing more cases, but in reality we were probably much worse when we only did 26k tests | 03:03 |
| tinwhiskers | oh. err. yeah. right. | 03:04 |
| LjL | basically the big cities are the hotspots now. Milan (sigh), Rome and Naples are all rather bad, i think the three of them are around 200 cases a day | 03:04 |
| tinwhiskers | watching that vid and not thinking right, clearly. | 03:04 |
| LjL | although Italy has "big cities" only to an extent, it has more a lot of smaller cities and town | 03:05 |
| LjL | ah | 03:05 |
| LjL | i'll throttle back my italy number ticking then and let you finish it :P | 03:05 |
| tinwhiskers | I asked :-) | 03:05 |
| LjL | yeah, i suspect people often find that i tend to answer more than is asked ;) | 03:06 |
| ryouma | agree with your testing comment of course but i find epidemiology to be sort of imprecise. nyc preacher is said to have said to not get tested, because if the positives go up then automatic lockdown triggering will occur. gonna put that in models?... | 03:19 |
| ryouma | s/imprecise/confusing to me | 03:20 |
| tinwhiskers | LjL: pretty good vid | 03:21 |
| LjL | sorry ryouma, which comment? | 03:21 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, i was probably already in a self-doubting mood when i watched it but it kicked it more securely into place | 03:22 |
| ryouma | oh just the increase | 03:22 |
| LjL | ryouma, well, even assuming we had something similar in Italy (i'm unaware of anything though), it's still... 25k again *1*25k, it's going to make a sheer difference | 03:24 |
| LjL | on the worst day, last spring, we had a 46% positive rate | 03:24 |
| LjL | now the positive rate is over 3%, which is worrying, but a faaaaar cry from 46% | 03:24 |
| ryouma | my comment was an aside | 03:27 |
| ryouma | not so much a but | 03:27 |
| LjL | ryouma, well it's most definitely imprecise. you see the numbers and they change for all sorts of reasons. but if we look at other numbers (like deaths), they have other problems, such as being delayed. and *also* potentially changing artificially because of reasons. | 03:29 |
| LjL | i'm not sure i've found a single decent indicator of anything during this pandemic | 03:29 |
| LjL | they are fuzzy, we must embrace the fuzziness :P | 03:29 |
| ryouma | yeah | 03:31 |
| metreo | LjL, for that much of a difference there must be very different populations being sampled | 03:47 |
| LjL | metreo, sure, "the population of people who are already pretty symptomatic, and we have no time or resources to test anyone else", vs "all the contacts we can trace" | 03:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: US states stopped their pandemic social restrictions too soon → https://is.gd/T2rEK3 | 03:49 |
| LjL | even now, every weekend, when there are routinely fewer tests, the percentage of positives in *those* rises. i think you can have a general (fuzzy, but general) assumption that the less you test, the more targeted those tests will be, and so the higher percentage of positives you'll return | 03:49 |
| LjL | (*percentage*, meaning of course in absolute numbers, you may well return fewer, because... you're testing less) | 03:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ Open: Attitudes and willingness toward out-of-hospital cardiopulmonary resuscitation: a questionnaire study among the public trained online in China: Objectives The incidence of bystander cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) is low in China. CPR training could improve public attitudes and willingness, but at present, the attitudes of the [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/8DqFt2 | 04:00 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: New test detects coronavirus in just 5 minutes (83 votes) | https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/10/new-test-detects-coronavirus-just-5-minutes | https://redd.it/j7oyip | 04:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: China Joins WHO-Backed Global Coronavirus Vaccine Program → https://is.gd/OBAUv6 | 04:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Only 6% without comorbidities? The truth about COVID deaths → https://is.gd/TFZ6Pg | 04:53 |
| metreo | LjL, it would be great if we could just test everyone at the same time :) | 05:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Chile Scientists Study Potential Coronavirus Mutation in Remote Patagonia → https://is.gd/D5qGv0 | 05:04 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Belgium: +5728 cases (now 143596), +18 deaths (now 10126) since a day ago — World: +15989 cases (now 36.9 million), +511 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 2 hours ago — Mexico: +5300 cases (now 804488), +370 deaths (now 83096) since a day ago — France: +4532 cases (now 687146) since 2 hours ago | 05:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Investigation: Colorado hospitals sign contracts to keep COVID-19 related data hidden from public view → https://is.gd/zb4gzH | 05:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Governor Newsom says Disneyland and other parks not re-opening anytime soon → https://is.gd/HXiJsV | 05:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Oregon sees 484 new coronavirus cases, setting record for single-day jump → https://is.gd/ikXxvP | 05:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: WHO reports record one-day rise in global coronavirus cases → https://is.gd/IlONg3 | 05:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: How the White House flouted basic coronavirus rules → https://is.gd/7aXZOx | 06:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Compared to 84k individuals hospitalised with influenza in 2014-19, COVID-19 patients are younger and with fewer comorbidities and lower medication use. → https://is.gd/3uV1uf | 06:52 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Ukraine: +4641 cases (now 251243), +83 deaths (now 4807) since 2 hours ago — World: +21164 cases (now 36.9 million), +129 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 2 hours ago — India: +2339 cases (now 6.9 million) since 2 hours ago — Quebec, Canada: +1078 cases (now 82992), +9 deaths (now 5915) since a day ago | 07:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Johnson & Johnson To Give Poor Countries 500M Free COVID Vaccines → https://is.gd/XRphkW | 07:14 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Unknown, Germany: +1243 cases (now 3886) since 5 days ago — Campania, Italy: +757 cases (now 16464) since 13 hours ago — Lombardy, Italy: +683 cases (now 109869), +1 deaths (now 16979) since a day ago — Berlin, Germany: +497 cases (now 17112), +1 deaths (now 233) since a day ago | 07:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Fertility patients under COVID-19: Attitudes, Perceptions, and Psychological Reactions → https://is.gd/QPlkl7 | 07:57 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Australia records second day without COVID-19 death for first time in three months → https://is.gd/hk6Q79 | 08:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: China joins COVAX alliance for global distribution of its COVID-19 vaccines → https://is.gd/yY40Sr | 08:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Trump’s COVID treatments were tested in cells derived from fetal tissue → https://is.gd/F8w25J | 08:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Trump’s COVID-19 Scare Propels Him to Record Facebook Engagement → https://is.gd/SlLgR6 | 08:51 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for World: +2508 cases (now 36.9 million), +34 deaths (now 1.1 million) since an hour ago — Hungary: +1176 cases (now 35222), +15 deaths (now 913) since 22 hours ago — Armenia: +614 cases (now 55087), +6 deaths (now 1010) since a day ago — Georgia: +527 cases (now 10752), +6 deaths (now 72) since 22 hours ago | 09:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Health experts join global anti-lockdown movement → https://is.gd/Gw72v5 | 09:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Rapid bedside testing is faster than standard centralised PCR testing for COVID-19: Point-of-care-testing for suspected COVID-19 reduces time to results and may improve infection control, suggesting these tests might have clinical advantages over widely used laboratory PCR methods. → https://is.gd/iW2xg0 | 09:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: China joins COVAX coronavirus vaccine alliance: China, which has at least four coronavirus vaccine candidates in the last stage of clinical trials, said Friday it is joining the COVID-19 vaccine alliance known as COVAX. → https://is.gd/ngyipw | 09:45 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Russia: +12126 cases (now 1.3 million), +201 deaths (now 22257) since 23 hours ago — World: +12455 cases (now 36.9 million), +202 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 53 minutes ago — Latvia: +137 cases (now 2507) since 23 hours ago — Lithuania: +133 cases (now 5758), +1 deaths (now 103) since 23 hours ago | 09:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: 86 percent of the UK's COVID-19 patients have no symptoms → https://is.gd/oiLOWc | 10:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Russia's new coronavirus cases surge to record high → https://is.gd/hIHnUx | 10:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: 7 looming questions about the rollout of a Covid-19 vaccine: Here are some potential hurdles that might created snafus and confusion in the gargantuan effort to deliver Covid-19 vaccine to people. → https://is.gd/t5U8Zm | 10:38 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Poland: +4739 cases (now 116338), +52 deaths (now 2919) since a day ago — Slovakia: +1184 cases (now 16910) since a day ago — World: +14506 cases (now 36.9 million), +239 deaths (now 1.1 million) since an hour ago — Indonesia: +4094 cases (now 324658), +97 deaths (now 11677) since a day ago | 10:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Bjorn’s Corner: Do I get COVID in airline cabins? Part 12. New results. → https://is.gd/6ZXbqX | 11:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Black and Asian patients have increased risk of severe COVID-19 at different stages of the disease: Patients of Black ethnicity have an increased risk of requiring hospital admission for COVID-19, while patients of Asian ethnicity have an increased risk of dying in hospital from COVID-19, compared to White patients, a study has found. → https://is.gd/9Jtgxw | 11:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Fox News viewers engage in riskier COVID-19 behavior than CNN viewers → https://is.gd/0SQWIt | 11:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: AI cameras introduced in London to monitor social distancing and lockdown restrictions → https://is.gd/wAbZAQ | 12:04 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Romania: +3186 cases (now 148886), +52 deaths (now 5299) since a day ago — Maharashtra, India: +13395 cases (now 1.5 million), +358 deaths (now 39430) since a day ago — Karnataka, India: +10704 cases (now 679356), +101 deaths (now 9675) since a day ago — World: +7283 cases (now 36.9 million), +112 deaths (now 1.1 million) since an hour ago | 12:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Broadway to remain closed till at least June 2021, possibly Fall — OnStage Blog → https://is.gd/PU3xMa | 12:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Slovak COVID-19 infections keep rising, government calls troops to help → https://is.gd/hwx5bO | 12:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from Scientific American: Trump's COVID Case Could Be Entering a Crucial Stage: President Donald Trump takes off his face mask at the White House, upon his return from Walter Reed Medical Center, where he underwent treatment for Covid-19. → https://is.gd/RA9OpX | 12:47 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for World: +1954 cases (now 36.9 million), +4 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 39 minutes ago — Switzerland: +1487 cases (now 60368), +1 deaths (now 2088) since 20 hours ago — Gibraltar: +16 cases (now 468) since a day ago — Germany: +346 cases (now 316287), +3 deaths (now 9670) since 6 hours ago | 12:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: A week into a White House outbreak, CDC still playing only a limited role → https://is.gd/CQOnkE | 13:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: 5 things to know before the stock market opens Friday: Dow futures advanced Friday as investors sought clarity around whether another round of coronavirus stimulus was still possible. → https://is.gd/NOaL7S | 13:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Bar or restaurant? The big issue in pandemic-struck Brussels → https://is.gd/uNOfTs | 13:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: 5 things to know before the stock market opens Friday: Dow futures advanced Friday as investors sought clarity around whether another round of coronavirus stimulus was still possible. → https://is.gd/NOaL7S | 13:52 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Iceland: +106 cases (now 3373) since 22 hours ago — World: +2611 cases (now 36.9 million), +13 deaths (now 1.1 million) since an hour ago — Nepal: +2059 cases (now 100676), +10 deaths (now 600) since a day ago — Azerbaijan: +215 cases (now 41519), +2 deaths (now 605) since 22 hours ago | 13:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Czech Republic - Prime minister to people: if you will not follow our guidelines I will lock you all down. → https://is.gd/a7q7Qn | 14:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Do cloth masks work? Only if you machine wash them after use: A new publication from researchers at UNSW Sydney advises daily washing of cloth masks to reduce the likelihood of contamination and transmission of viruses like SARS-CoV-2. → https://is.gd/vRfANt | 14:14 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Belarus: +489 cases (now 82471), +5 deaths (now 885) since 22 hours ago — World: +2488 cases (now 36.9 million), +12 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 39 minutes ago — Sweden: +919 cases (now 98451) since 22 hours ago — Puerto Rico, US: +598 cases (now 52892), +5 deaths (now 720) since 22 hours ago | 14:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Covid cases increase rapidly as next steps planned: There has been a marked increase in cases over recent weeks in England, especially in the north. → https://is.gd/jZi3fq | 14:35 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Netherlands: +4666 cases (now 161781) since 7 hours ago — World: +6974 cases (now 36.9 million), +45 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 34 minutes ago — US: +981 cases (now 7.8 million), +30 deaths (now 217785) since 34 minutes ago — Iowa, US: +103 cases (now 96852) since 2 hours ago | 14:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: Gilead CEO: 'We have ample supply' of remdesivir for hospitalized coronavirus patients: Gilead will have enough global supply of its coronavirus treatment remdesivir by the end of October, CEO Daniel O'Day told CNBC on Friday. → https://is.gd/mEERl7 | 14:57 |
| snake | how can i acquire remedisivir | 14:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: People in Soweto told us about their fears in the first weeks of South Africa's lockdown: South Africa's response to the novel coronavirus outbreak was swift and assertive. The country quickly instituted testing, tracing, and quarantining those affected with COVID-19. But the financial and social effects of quarantine hit [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/Ham3sI | 15:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: An autoimmune-like antibody response is linked with severe COVID-19: In the earliest days of the pandemic, many immunologists, including me, assumed that patients who produced high quantities of antibodies early in infection would be free from disease. We were wrong. → https://is.gd/ujrkuZ | 15:29 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Portugal: +1394 cases (now 83928), +12 deaths (now 2062) since 23 hours ago — World: +14839 cases (now 37.0 million), +352 deaths (now 1.1 million) since an hour ago — Iran: +4142 cases (now 492378), +210 deaths (now 28098) since a day ago — Iraq: +3214 cases (now 397780), +52 deaths (now 9735) since a day ago | 15:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Pharma: STAT Plus: Pharmalittle: White House pushes EUA for Regeneron and Lilly Covid-19 drugs; CMS scrambles to send drug cards → https://is.gd/FI8vZ1 | 15:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Russia sees record daily virus infections: Russia registered a record daily number of new coronavirus infections on Friday, surpassing its previous high from May. → https://is.gd/eV4nIE | 15:51 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Myanmar: +1461 cases (now 23906), +31 deaths (now 566) since a day ago — North Macedonia: +386 cases (now 20163), +6 deaths (now 781) since a day ago — World: +5156 cases (now 37.0 million), +85 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 19 minutes ago — India: +2452 cases (now 6.9 million) since 9 hours ago | 15:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Researchers surprised: 20% of Chicagoans in blood-test study came up positive for coronavirus antibodies → https://is.gd/wl4OWk | 16:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express (Health): Fashion: Hand sanitiser, banana bread costumes? This retail brand is selling pandemic-themed outfits → https://is.gd/FZkQz5 | 16:34 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for World: +4999 cases (now 37.0 million), +94 deaths (now 1.1 million) since an hour ago — P.A. Bolzano, Italy: +85 cases (now 3888) since 22 hours ago — Chile: +1753 cases (now 477769), +53 deaths (now 13220) since 22 hours ago — Moldova: +918 cases (now 60833), +18 deaths (now 1442) since a day ago | 16:54 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Global initiative IDs keys that could unlock better personalized cancer treatments: Neoantigens, tiny markers that arise from cancer mutations, flag cells as cancerous and could be the key to unlocking a new generation of immunotherapies. Targeting the "right" neoantigens—in a cancer vaccine or a cell therapy—has the [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/8WrIjL | 17:07 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Italy: +5372 cases (now 343770), +28 deaths (now 36111) since 23 hours ago — World: +25957 cases (now 37.0 million), +292 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 22 minutes ago — India: +18278 cases (now 6.9 million), +234 deaths (now 106788) since an hour ago — Jordan: +1246 cases (now 22763), +22 deaths (now 166) since 23 hours ago | 17:09 |
| Jigsy | %cases UK | 17:16 |
| Brainstorm | Jigsy: In United Kingdom, there have been 561815 confirmed cases (0.8% of the population) and 45712 deaths (8.1% of cases) as of 9 hours ago. 26.7 million tests were performed (2.1% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=United%20Kingdom for time series data. | 17:16 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for North Dakota, US: +656 cases (now 26040), +11 deaths (now 321) since 23 hours ago — World: +2667 cases (now 37.0 million), +30 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 21 minutes ago — Israel: +1212 cases (now 287858), +7 deaths (now 1886) since 5 hours ago — US: +656 cases (now 7.8 million), +11 deaths (now 217840) since 21 minutes ago | 17:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: China claims coronavirus broke out in world’s various parts last year; it only reported first → https://is.gd/GhMngE | 17:29 |
| metreo | In Canada they have told us that the average number of contacts being traced per infection is now 80, up from 3 in the Spring | 17:38 |
| genevino | %cases germany | 17:40 |
| Brainstorm | genevino: In Germany, there have been 318449 confirmed cases (0.4% of the population) and 9675 deaths (3.0% of cases) as of 8 minutes ago. 18.1 million tests were performed (1.8% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.7% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 3.5% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Germany for time series data. | 17:40 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: Russia smashes coronavirus single-day case record with more than 12,000 in 24 hours (10462 votes) | https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-coronavirus-cases-infection-record-covid-putin-b908973.html | https://redd.it/j7xh7q | 17:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from Scientific American: What China's Speedy COVID Vaccine Deployment Means for the Pandemic: An engineer works in the general laboratory during a media tour of a new factory built to produce a COVID-19 coronavirus vaccine at Sinovac, one of 11 Chinese companies approved to carry out clinical trials of potential coronavirus vaccines. → https://is.gd/oUbDFH | 17:50 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for World: +45902 cases (now 37.0 million), +427 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 50 minutes ago — India: +19717 cases (now 6.9 million), +137 deaths (now 106925) since an hour ago — Friuli Venezia Giulia, Italy: +346 deaths (now 701) since 10 hours ago — United Kingdom: +12521 cases (now 575679) since 10 hours ago | 18:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: A radical nature-based agenda would help society overcome the psychological effects of coronavirus: More of us than ever are stuck indoors, whether we are working at home, self-isolating, or socially distancing from other households. Long periods of isolation are already impacting many people's mental health and will continue [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/jsib5l | 18:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: New coronavirus can infect your eyes as well as your lungs: COVID-19 is primarily a respiratory infection, but experts have suspected the virus can also infiltrate the eyes. Now, scientists have more direct evidence of it. → https://is.gd/iLADIu | 18:23 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Czechia: +4524 cases (now 105281), +29 deaths (now 898) since 16 hours ago — World: +20039 cases (now 37.1 million), +264 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 20 minutes ago — India: +10913 cases (now 7.0 million), +114 deaths (now 107039) since 20 minutes ago — US: +4432 cases (now 7.8 million), +121 deaths (now 217978) since 20 minutes ago | 18:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Hispanics are paying the price for being 'essential' during the pandemic: Since the coronavirus pandemic began, Maria de Lourdes Alvarado has had to pick up extra or overtime shifts whenever she can, like millions of other essential workers outside of the health care field who are helping to maintain a sense of normalcy in [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/hvrwpM | 18:33 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Montana, US: +722 cases (now 17399), +9 deaths (now 206) since 22 hours ago — World: +12784 cases (now 37.1 million), +356 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 36 minutes ago — Spain: +5986 cases (now 890367), +241 deaths (now 32929) since 22 hours ago — US: +4920 cases (now 7.9 million), +53 deaths (now 218031) since 36 minutes ago | 18:54 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Maynard James Keenan, lead singer of Tool, had COVID-19 in February, and is still recovering → https://is.gd/CBoWf7 | 18:55 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: EU agrees common virus rules in bid to end travel chaos: EU members agreed Friday on a method to determine safe travel destinations within Europe, hoping to unify the bloc's haphazard patchwork of travel restrictions due to Covid-19. → https://is.gd/hrW4ST | 19:05 |
| kevin-oculus | snake hi | 19:16 |
| snake | hi | 19:17 |
| kevin-oculus | this is not a covid19 topic but just wonderig do you know this poet or is she popular in US https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/oct/08/louise-gluck-wins-the-2020-nobel-prize-in-literature | 19:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from CDC: Coronavirus [CoV]: Cases & Deaths by County → https://is.gd/yJtqEF | 19:27 |
| LjL | ugh | 19:27 |
| snake | kevin-oculus, no i dont follow literature too much | 19:27 |
| kevin-oculus | snake okish | 19:28 |
| LjL | Italy has another additional 1000 today (i mean additional to the daily count), *and* Lombardy alone has almost 1000 in total, and 500 of those are in Milan | 19:28 |
| LjL | for comparison, in previous days (as in yesterday, i think), Lombardy was around 500, and that already seemed large | 19:28 |
| LjL | doubling in one day... just ugh | 19:28 |
| LjL | and it's not more tests. we had just a few more tests than yesterday and the day before, but really, pretty much the same amount | 19:29 |
| kevin-oculus | spain is suffering also very much | 19:30 |
| LjL | and the UK, and France | 19:35 |
| LjL | and other countries i have less of a grip on data about | 19:35 |
| LjL | how will we all get past winter, honestly i don't know | 19:35 |
| LjL | but sending negative vibes won't help anyone, i'm going to have a short walk instead | 19:35 |
| LjL | (yes, with a mask on) | 19:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from Retraction Watch: Heard about the study claiming men who carry guitar cases are more attractive? It’s been retracted.: A controversial psychologist has lost a bizarre paper which claimed that men who carry guitar cases do better with the ladies. The article, which had appeared in the journal The Psychology of Music in 2014, was one of many [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/02H7Zq | 19:37 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Indiana, US: +1816 cases (now 131493), +19 deaths (now 3761) since a day ago — Ireland: +617 cases (now 40703), +4 deaths (now 1821) since 23 hours ago — World: +7342 cases (now 37.1 million), +83 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 50 minutes ago — US: +6721 cases (now 7.9 million), +79 deaths (now 218110) since 50 minutes ago | 19:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Upper Midwest sees COVID-19 surge as Northeast worries about a second wave: (HealthDay)—The new coronavirus is striking the Upper Midwest with a vengeance, as Wisconsin and the Dakotas became COVID-19 hotspots and health officials scrambled for hospital beds on Thursday. → https://is.gd/xdoAoE | 19:48 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for West Virginia, US: +374 cases (now 17707) since 12 hours ago — World: +2342 cases (now 37.1 million), +15 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 20 minutes ago — US: +2323 cases (now 7.9 million), +15 deaths (now 218125) since 20 minutes ago — New York, US: +1374 cases (now 506604), +6 deaths (now 33369) since 14 hours ago | 19:54 |
| kevin-oculus | We need to learn to live with this virus. | 19:57 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Italy 'second wave' fears grow as virus cases top 5,000: Italy was grappling Friday with fears of a second coronavirus wave similar to the ones seen in Britain, France and Spain, as it registered over 5,000 new infections in 24 hours. → https://is.gd/xfjMHt | 19:59 |
| tinwhiskers | This retraction watch is interesting and it's really good to get some visibility of that. | 20:01 |
| tinwhiskers | Although the sexiness of guitar cases may not be relevant here :-) | 20:02 |
| tinwhiskers | (still worth having imo) | 20:02 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Clinical Trial of Ivermectin Plus Doxycycline for the Treatment of Confirmed Covid-19 Infection (80 votes) | https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04523831 | https://redd.it/j80jdk | 20:05 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers: lol, when I'm home I'll look at why that particular retraction watch article ended up being posted | 20:09 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Morocco: +3445 cases (now 146398), +44 deaths (now 2530) since 23 hours ago — World: +19944 cases (now 37.1 million), +209 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 26 minutes ago — India: +6563 cases (now 7.0 million), +103 deaths (now 107142) since an hour ago — France: +306 cases (now 691977), +62 deaths (now 32583) since 12 hours ago | 20:09 |
| LjL | I've had the RW feed itself in the not for a while but it hasn't shown up very often | 20:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: See in one minute how Covid-19 has torn across the U.S.: A new timelapse shows how Covid-19 cases have torn across the United States in recent months. → https://is.gd/VfU8aG | 20:10 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Ohio, US: +1818 cases (now 166129), +12 deaths (now 5000) since 21 hours ago — France: +13362 cases (now 705339), +22 deaths (now 32605) since 25 minutes ago — World: +3244 cases (now 37.1 million), +23 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 25 minutes ago — US: +1818 cases (now 7.9 million), +12 deaths (now 218137) since 41 minutes ago | 20:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: France reports 20,339 new coronavirus cases, by far the biggest one-day increase on record → https://is.gd/QQNOG8 | 20:31 |
| LjL | 20k :| | 20:42 |
| tinwhiskers | ouch | 20:42 |
| tinwhiskers | LjL: any other measures introduced at the same time as your new mask mandate? | 20:43 |
| genevino | ouch | 20:44 |
| tinwhiskers | If not it might make a useful case study in the effectiveness of mask wearing. It will be interesting to see if/when cases fall off again in Italy. | 20:44 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, not any that got stuck inside my memory, so perhaps none of much impact | 20:48 |
| tinwhiskers | ok. | 20:48 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, well, if it's going to be like last spring's lockdown, the effects will take a LONG time to be reflected in the numbers | 20:48 |
| LjL | so if there are any *other* (further) measures introduced in the short-term future, it may make things confusing | 20:49 |
| LjL | and i suspect there will be, because, look at france's numbers :\ we'll just follow | 20:49 |
| tinwhiskers | ok, so if more rules are to be introduced in the next few days it probably won't be possible to say how important this particular one is. Ah well. | 20:49 |
| tinwhiskers | erm, yeah, what you said | 20:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): Trump health official blasts Nevada after state ends use of rapid coronavirus tests in nursing homes → https://is.gd/evNjKq | 20:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from WebMD: New Coronavirus Can Infect Your Eyes as Well: The case offers proof that "SARS-CoV-2 can also infect ocular tissues in addition to the respiratory system," the doctors reported in the Oct. 8 online edition of the journal JAMA Ophthalmology. → https://is.gd/O1hbZL | 21:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): Trump health official blasts Nevada after state ends use of rapid coronavirus tests in nursing homes → https://is.gd/evNjKq | 21:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Uncategorized: STAT Plus: ‘We have to deal with uncertainty’: FDA leaders explain how Covid-19 has upended cancer research and care → https://is.gd/3jHvhJ | 21:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from PLOS: Impact of providing free HIV self-testing kits on frequency of testing among men who have sex with men and their sexual partners in China: A randomized controlled trial: by Ci Zhang, Deborah Koniak-Griffin, Han-Zhu Qian, Lloyd A. Goldsamt, Honghong Wang, Mary-Lynn Brecht, Xianhong Li Background The HIV epidemic is rapidly growing among [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/W9OoHi | 22:08 |
| mezzmur[m] | Experts are saying 25-50% false positives are very likely-maybe many "asymptomatic cases" are not even cases. If you pay attention to what is/has happened with NBA/NFL... first positive, day later OK... etc. It is a bit suspicious. | 22:18 |
| mezzmur[m] | This is exactly the way the holocaust started. For those who are unfamiliar with the techniques used, (Propaganda, Deception, Denial, Deomonization, Polarization - US vs THEM )this site is very helpful. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/tags/en/tag/propaganda | 22:22 |
| stick | illuminai | 22:22 |
| stick | rule the world | 22:23 |
| LjL | i... really fail to see the connection with the holocaust here | 22:23 |
| mezzmur[m] | The connection is the TECHNIQUES! | 22:23 |
| mezzmur[m] | It' | 22:24 |
| stick | purge the problems any way needed | 22:24 |
| mezzmur[m] | @stick?? Not sure what you mean? | 22:25 |
| stick | the holocaust/viruses | 22:25 |
| stick | newbie | 22:26 |
| mezzmur[m] | This is all coming from the heavily CHINA funded WHO. Naturally CHINA's governemnt has the West's best interest in mind. They are well on their way to winning WW III without firing a shot. | 22:28 |
| stick | you do know covid was in france a month berfore china reported it | 22:29 |
| tinwhiskers | While what you say about China may or may not be true in terms of an economic world takeover, it's really not very relevant to covid. | 22:30 |
| stick | before | 22:30 |
| mezzmur[m] | @tinwhisters - Very relevant - the level of fear is WAY out of proportion - and for some reason everyone is blindly following the WHO. | 22:32 |
| mezzmur[m] | Docs are being pressured to inflate the covid stats because the deaths aren't high enough | 22:32 |
| tinwhiskers | I think most people have long given up on following the *primarily US* funded WHO | 22:32 |
| LjL | well, most people here aren't blindly following the WHO and are sometimes quite critical of it, while at the same time thinking the level of fear is appropriate or even too low | 22:33 |
| mezzmur[m] | Not with the MASKS... which likely spread more than the save | 22:33 |
| tinwhiskers | that's ridiculous conspiracy nonsense | 22:33 |
| LjL | also you don't need (nor really should, for optimal results) prefix nicknames with @ on either Matrix or IRC... | 22:33 |
| mezzmur[m] | Do you thnk bankrupting the economy for a bd flu makes sense | 22:34 |
| tinwhiskers | you might find another channel more fitting to that sort of unfounded speculation | 22:34 |
| LjL | mezzmur[m], please read the https://covid19.specops.network link in the topic before deciding to go ahead and calling it "a bad flu" | 22:34 |
| LjL | somehow i still hold people to the standard that they should check out a channel's topic even though virtually no one does ;( | 22:35 |
| tinwhiskers | excess deaths clearly show an under reporting of deaths and if anything the US (and others) have been downplaying numbers, not inflating them. | 22:35 |
| stick | covid not new | 22:35 |
| tinwhiskers | nonsense | 22:35 |
| ryouma | mezzmur[m]: i'm feeling a bit uncomfortable. the holocast museum article you linked to was not an article but a tag with a bunch of articles. your case would be strengthened by showing 1) which article you are talking about 2) what the parallels are, and, since the techniques youare referring to are reminiscent of the genocide watch list of stages of genocide, whether you are intending to refer to those stages and | 22:35 |
| ryouma | what the parallels are in the specific case of china. furthermore, please state what the target population is supposed to be in this case. thank you. | 22:35 |
| LjL | stick, the fact that COVID RNA was found in France and other countries before January doesn't really show much... except that it was already around undetected, which is a bit perplexing, but not really overly surprising when we see now, that even with widespread monitoring, the reported numbers lag *a lot* compared to actual cases | 22:36 |
| stick | it been around longer than 2 years | 22:37 |
| stick | look it up | 22:37 |
| LjL | now how do you know *that* | 22:37 |
| ryouma | i don't think a lot of vague accusations is condign in this case; you need to be specific. or just say this is a feeling you have. also, stating where you likely heasrd this stuff (talk radio, etc. whatever.) would help. | 22:37 |
| tinwhiskers | I'm still sceptical that france finding isn't related to contamination or false positives, but, for now I think we just take it for what it is. | 22:37 |
| LjL | stick, no, i won't "look it up", you make the extraordinary claim, you get to provide extraordinary evidence | 22:38 |
| tinwhiskers | 2 years is ridiculous. | 22:38 |
| LjL | it has been around since November-December, that much is semi-ascertained. that's not 2 years | 22:38 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, it's not just France though (although right now i kind of forget who else found it in the sewers... Barcelona and somewhere in Italy?) | 22:38 |
| LjL | i think there are enough findings that they are unlikely to all be wrong | 22:38 |
| LjL | but what that means remains unclear | 22:39 |
| metreo | stick, where was covid detected in france so early? | 22:39 |
| ryouma | were the methodologically rigorous? | 22:39 |
| metreo | those sewer studies are pretty suspicious | 22:39 |
| tinwhiskers | if there is a 5% false positive rate and hundreds of tests you'll find some positive results in neanthderthal bones | 22:39 |
| stick | https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2020/04/11/the-secret-history-of-the-first-coronavirus-229e/#29686cc71d65 | 22:39 |
| stick | file from 1965 | 22:39 |
| tinwhiskers | but, yes, it is curious and I'm not entirely dismissing it. 2 years is a bit extreme to be plausible though. | 22:40 |
| LjL | stick, that is not COVID | 22:40 |
| LjL | being a (possibly related) coronavirus doesn't make it SARS-COV-2 or COVID | 22:40 |
| metreo | ^^ this is a crucial point | 22:40 |
| stick | read it all | 22:40 |
| stick | covid like the flu mutates | 22:41 |
| mezzmur[m] | US Deaths as a % of Population: 215,506/331,515,730=0.065% - Does that justify the level of collateral damange - especially when most are elderly? | 22:41 |
| metreo | China pulled the plug on Pence during the debate, they will make other efforts to deflect culpability | 22:41 |
| ryouma | this stuff is really unimpressive. it is an extraordinary claim, in carl sagan terms --- 13:33 <mezzmur[m]> Not with the MASKS... which likely spread more than the save | 22:41 |
| metreo | Not saying they are culpable though Trump has been very vocal about it | 22:41 |
| LjL | stick, i've read it all and it makes no such claim | 22:42 |
| stick | a strain was france b&c was china for covid 19 | 22:42 |
| LjL | i also don't really understand what you connect to "2 years" in it | 22:42 |
| metreo | China has a large influence in academia, there have been waves of tenured academics arrested for cooperating too closely with them | 22:42 |
| mezzmur[m] | If the country goes bankrupt with several million starving homeless the death rate will be a lot higher than from covid. | 22:42 |
| metreo | That's in the US at places like Harvard | 22:42 |
| metreo | So we can't really trust the intelligentsia full stop, certainly not one study poking around in sewers :) | 22:43 |
| de-facto | let me throw in one point: if you look for the sequences at https://nextstrain.org/ncov/global it seems they all originate from the same initial patient zero, so if those earlier detections would be of any relevance (and not just contaminations or test artifacts), how come there is not a completely separate strain from that phylogenetic tree there visible today? | 22:43 |
| LjL | mezzmur[m], if COVID is allowed to run rampant, you can rest assured that country goes bankrupt anyway, AND a lot of people will already be dead from COVID before they get to starve from the economy! | 22:43 |
| tinwhiskers | mezzmur[m]: that's unfounded speculation. The countries who have been most successful at controlling the disease locked down hard and early and got back to life. It was not the loickdowns that failed the US but just very poorly implemented lockdowns and an utter failure of management. Lockdowns do not implicitly cost more. | 22:44 |
| LjL | de-facto, i don't believe those studies included actual genetic sequencing. they were just PCR tests. which, i think, is regrettable, but maybe the genome in the sewers etc wasn't in a decent enough state to be sequenced. i am not sure they even tried, however :\ | 22:44 |
| de-facto | meaning it looks like that todays sequences of SARS-CoV-2 all seem to originate from the same initial event and spreading the phylogenetic tree upon that | 22:44 |
| mezzmur[m] | @LjL Covid is generally not serious before age 60... Look at the statistics. | 22:45 |
| metreo | defacto, yes this seems to be the conclusion, the real question is whether it's the result of human manipulation (i.e. is it lab created) | 22:45 |
| tinwhiskers | oh, good lord. Why are we suddenly getting all these tired conspiracy tropes popping up? | 22:46 |
| de-facto | LjL exactly full sequences would be required for such extraordinaty claims (maybe impossible form the sewers though) and afaik many just were based upon a _single_ positive test which may very well be an artifact or contamination, i was a bit surprised no further confirmation efforts were done by the authors for such extraordinary claims | 22:46 |
| metreo | it remains an open question, we don't know the progemcy of the disease | 22:46 |
| metreo | some are saying now it was bats, but there is no firm conclusion | 22:46 |
| LjL | mezzmur[m], uh, i didn't know people over 60 were unimportant | 22:46 |
| LjL | i think there is a lot of them, especially in countries with high median ages (like mine) | 22:47 |
| metreo | viruses escape from BSL4 labs, it's not implausible | 22:47 |
| mezzmur[m] | Why is the fact that credible people being censored is a conspiracy theory? BTW that term was designed to shut off discussion and intelligent though. | 22:47 |
| stick | https://thefederalist.com/2020/04/18/10-deadliest-pandemics-in-history-were-much-worse-than-coronavirus-so-far/ | 22:47 |
| ryouma | i am seeing a gish gallop here | 22:47 |
| metreo | and these class of labs do testing on human transmission, the coincidence is huge, Coronavirus is a bat disease classically, there are not many bats in Wuhan | 22:48 |
| tinwhiskers | ok, time to stop this harmful bullshit I think. You are sadly misinformed by the prevailing social media tropes. | 22:48 |
| tinwhiskers | "Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." | 22:48 |
| mezzmur[m] | @LjL I'm over 60 myself, but I'm not overly worried. | 22:48 |
| LjL | you seem to be underly worried, if anything | 22:48 |
| mezzmur[m] | Not about COVID, the government response! | 22:49 |
| ryouma | mezzmur[m]: are you intending to answer my questions or not? either is ok. but i'd like to know. | 22:49 |
| tinwhiskers | yes, the response has been bad | 22:49 |
| ryouma | if it takes you time that is ok. | 22:49 |
| ryouma | the us response has been practically pessimally bad | 22:50 |
| stick | how many bats in france | 22:50 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Massachusetts, US: +765 cases (now 137701), +12 deaths (now 9577) since 23 hours ago — World: +31761 cases (now 37.1 million), +560 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 2 hours ago — US: +15110 cases (now 7.9 million), +207 deaths (now 218344) since 2 hours ago — India: +12934 cases (now 7.0 million), +308 deaths (now 107450) since 2 hours ago | 22:50 |
| mezzmur[m] | @ryouma sorry I missed your question. | 22:50 |
| stick | a strain was france b&c was china for covid 19 | 22:50 |
| LjL | <stick> how many bats in france ← you throw things like this out there, i can HALF guess why you're asking, but it's really crappy debate techniques | 22:50 |
| ryouma | mezzmur[m]: please looki at scrollback as i do not want to spam the cahnel with them | 22:51 |
| LjL | what is b&c | 22:51 |
| tinwhiskers | "a strain was france b&c was china for covid 19" - I have no idea what this means. | 22:51 |
| ryouma | a led to b in france and c in china? (wild guess.) | 22:52 |
| ryouma | kinda like proto indo european? | 22:52 |
| tinwhiskers | oh. well we don't know what the strain was in France. it wasn't sequenced. | 22:52 |
| metreo | there are no wetmarkets in France to my knowledge | 22:52 |
| stick | if bats stared it where were the bats in france a month earlyer | 22:52 |
| ryouma | why not? | 22:53 |
| tinwhiskers | we have no idea how it fits into the phylogenetic tree | 22:53 |
| stick | started | 22:53 |
| metreo | we don't know which animal transferred it to humans | 22:53 |
| metreo | it's part of the problem | 22:53 |
| LjL | stick, there are definitely many bats in france (bats are quite widespread) but your premise is flawed | 22:53 |
| metreo | classically Coronavirus is a bat disease but they could have transmitted to another species which ended up in a wet market | 22:53 |
| tinwhiskers | lol. no | 22:53 |
| stick | because it didnt start with them | 22:53 |
| metreo | it's more compilcated of an explaination | 22:54 |
| metreo | ususally the simple explaination is the truth | 22:54 |
| tinwhiskers | coronaviruses are fairly ubiquitous throughout all mammals. | 22:54 |
| metreo | "fairly" ? | 22:55 |
| tinwhiskers | there's bound to be an exception if I go making an absolute claim | 22:55 |
| metreo | https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200428/bats-and-coronaviruses-go-back-centuries | 22:55 |
| tinwhiskers | yes, and coronaviruses and other mammals also go back centuries | 22:56 |
| metreo | https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8211257/Wuhan-lab-performing-experiments-bats-coronavirus-caves.html | 22:56 |
| tinwhiskers | sure | 22:56 |
| tinwhiskers | they are a known source of coronaviruses because they poop on water supplies and whatnot. It warrants study. | 22:56 |
| tinwhiskers | but you're putting 2 and 2 together to get 5 | 22:56 |
| mezzmur[m] | @ryouma It will take me some time to go through this: https://covid19.specops.network/ I just wish that BOTH sides were allowed to have open debate without mudslinging. | 22:57 |
| tinwhiskers | it may have come from bats. It's not impossible they escaped a lab in china. ok. | 22:57 |
| tinwhiskers | *it escaped | 22:58 |
| stick | wuhan also got the virus from a canada lab | 22:58 |
| LjL | mezzmur[m], i was the one who told you to review https://covid19.specops.network/ not ryouma. ryouma asked something else about your connection with the Holocaust | 22:58 |
| tinwhiskers | there's a lot of mixed stories that conflict with each other here | 22:58 |
| tinwhiskers | blindly gobbling up everything you hear from "alternative news" sources is only leading you to a path of ignorance, not knowledge. | 22:59 |
| metreo | well they stole from Canada, we didn't give it to them, it was espionage | 22:59 |
| tinwhiskers | oh, come on. | 22:59 |
| metreo | that's fact 100% | 22:59 |
| tinwhiskers | this is conspiracy quackery | 22:59 |
| metreo | no it's a different virus but it was stolen | 22:59 |
| tinwhiskers | ok, enough of this bullshit | 22:59 |
| metreo | look it up | 22:59 |
| tinwhiskers | jesus | 23:00 |
| LjL | didn't i say earlier that "look it up" isn't an appropriate thing to just throw out there when you're making a claim | 23:00 |
| tinwhiskers | it's a common call of the nutter brigade | 23:00 |
| metreo | it wasn't covid-19 but they are stealing viruses and experimenting on them in human transmission studies in Wuhan | 23:01 |
| tinwhiskers | well virus research labs do actually do research with viruses, yes | 23:01 |
| metreo | https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/16/chinese-researchers-stripped-security-clearance-canada-lab-deadly/ | 23:01 |
| tinwhiskers | it's not in dispute that the lab did research on viruses | 23:02 |
| ryouma | 15 arguments whose possibly solid backing are unfamiliar to us << 1 argument for something that is unfamiliar to us with solid backing that we can all get behind | 23:02 |
| LjL | ryouma, yeah, i'm so confused by all the claims being made by now that i'm not even sure what to say and to whom | 23:03 |
| ryouma | is there a central claim that is being made? | 23:03 |
| tinwhiskers | no | 23:03 |
| LjL | i wouldn't like to just say "y'all nutters, go away" but at some point it's easy to overwhelm someone's capacity to provide coherent rebuttals | 23:03 |
| ryouma | that is gish gallop | 23:03 |
| ryouma | or similar | 23:03 |
| ryouma | perhaps "lockdowns are bad"? | 23:04 |
| tinwhiskers | so wuhan did not get SARS-Cov-2 from Canada. That was a different virus. We're clear on that, right? | 23:05 |
| ryouma | no don't rely on me! | 23:05 |
| LjL | well i certainly can't rely on me! | 23:05 |
| ryouma | it is a fallacy to say that then you can rely on me! | 23:05 |
| LjL | ryouma, fair, but WHICH fallacy?! :P | 23:05 |
| stick | news reports say your lying about canada | 23:05 |
| ryouma | excluded middle? or soemthing a few degrees of separation from that one? | 23:05 |
| tinwhiskers | lying? they did not obtain SARS-Cov-2 from Canada | 23:06 |
| ryouma | no, not even that one | 23:06 |
| LjL | stick, well, that's enough for you and for now. "news report say your[sic] lying" isn't an acceptable claim in debate just as much as "look it up" isn't | 23:06 |
| metreo | no but they were interested in similar strains | 23:06 |
| tinwhiskers | ok | 23:06 |
| metreo | we don't know where Covid-19 originated from | 23:06 |
| tinwhiskers | right | 23:07 |
| metreo | and studies claiming it was in the sewers of France are unreliable | 23:07 |
| LjL | stick, say someone's inaccurate or referring to something different from what we're focusing on - don't just outright call them "lying" | 23:07 |
| tinwhiskers | metreo: agreed | 23:07 |
| tinwhiskers | but not impossible | 23:07 |
| metreo | right | 23:07 |
| tinwhiskers | acknowledging known unknowns is good. Making up stuff to fill the gaps is not. | 23:08 |
| dTal | what about "conspiracy quackery", can I call stuff that? :P | 23:08 |
| genera | there were viruses in France before january? where can i read more about that? | 23:08 |
| LjL | dTal, i'll allow that for the sake of alliteration | 23:08 |
| metreo | BSL4s have had plently of viruses escape in the USA | 23:08 |
| mezzmur[m] | Given the level of corruption it is very difficult to know what to trust - mainstream medicine has been corrupted by money/power | 23:08 |
| dTal | it does roll off the tongue doesn't it | 23:08 |
| mezzmur[m] | https://participatorymedicine.org/epatients/2012/03/former-nejm-editors-on-the-corruption-of-american-medicine-ny-times.html | 23:08 |
| tinwhiskers | metreo: it's not impossible. that is not disputed. but it is unknown. | 23:08 |
| ryouma | mezzmur[m]: you won't get any argument from me on that | 23:08 |
| ryouma | mezzmur[m]: but similarly to my argument with ljl, it does not follow that conspiracy theories are true by default | 23:09 |
| metreo | tinwhiskers, it's a monumental coincidence | 23:09 |
| LjL | dTal, if you were Japanese you'd make a nice demonstration of how saying that in English makes a tissue in front of your mouth move, while if you say the Japanese equivalent, that doesn't happen, thus unequivocally demonstrating that the enhanced spread of COVID in English-speaking countries is due to the language | 23:09 |
| tinwhiskers | not really | 23:09 |
| mezzmur[m] | @ryouma if medicine is corrupt and they have managed to suppress cures, that will drive death rates up | 23:09 |
| LjL | dTal, (and i'm not even kidding you) | 23:09 |
| ryouma | mezzmur[m]: but now we are talking about topic b when you have not replied to my message about topic a | 23:10 |
| dTal | LjL: that's... plausible! | 23:10 |
| ryouma | i have no evidence that cures are being suppressed | 23:10 |
| LjL | dTal, did you just say "PLausible"? do you know P is called a "PLosive" consonant? there's a reason! stop giving me COVID | 23:10 |
| dTal | I did, and I couldn't think of a way of working "plosive" in there. So I plumped for a plodding platitude | 23:12 |
| mezzmur[m] | @ryouma It's fundamental to everything - If the information we are all using is BS, then everything is BS, and we need to revert to empirical observations. | 23:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Official says vaccine expected in January, countering Trump: A Trump administration official leading the response to the coronavirus pandemic says the U.S. can expect delivery of a vaccine starting in January 2021, despite statements from the president that inoculations could begin this month. → https://is.gd/IFAjbM | 23:12 |
| LjL | dTal, puh-leease! | 23:12 |
| metreo | china censored pence | 23:12 |
| ryouma | mezzmur[m]: that does not mean cures are being suppressed. or else i am missing the connection there. you still have not replied to my first mesasges. kindly say whether you intend to. | 23:12 |
| tinwhiskers | the information we're using isn't all BS | 23:12 |
| metreo | guilty consciences :P | 23:13 |
| tinwhiskers | there's some problems with it, for sure, but it's not BS | 23:13 |
| ryouma | is ja any more plosive than english? | 23:13 |
| LjL | for mezzmur[m]'s and ryouma's benefit, this is ryouma's unanswered question (i'll allow myself to spam it) | 23:14 |
| LjL | <ryouma> mezzmur[m]: i'm feeling a bit uncomfortable. the holocast museum article you linked to was not an article but a tag with a bunch of articles. your case would be strengthened by showing 1) which article you are talking about 2) what the parallels are, and, since the techniques youare referring to are reminiscent of the genocide watch list of stages of genocide, whether you are intending to refer to those stages and what the parallels are in the | 23:14 |
| LjL | specific case of china. furthermore, please state what the target population is supposed to be in this case. thank you. | 23:14 |
| ryouma | (oh, less not more) | 23:14 |
| tinwhiskers | the medical research is not entirely conclusive, as you expect at early stages. That's the nature of 95% confidence. We're wobbling our way closer and closer to understanding. The communication and political manoeuvrings have been far worse than the data itself. | 23:15 |
| LjL | ryouma, English likely contains a bit more aspirations, because after every voiceless plosive (k, p, t) you have an aspiration, at least when they are at the start of a word. in Japanese, "k" is somewhat aspirated before "a", but mostly consonants are not aspirated | 23:15 |
| tinwhiskers | we are gaining an understanding of what is happening. If you read the medical journals (not the pre-prints) and stop just getting your news from social media we are making progress - unprecedented progress. | 23:16 |
| LjL | ryouma, plosiveness is different from aspiration, though, and both languages have plosives per se. it's just that the "p" sound in english is a bit more "p-hhhh"-y | 23:16 |
| ryouma | there is definitely less aspiration in ja's t. | 23:17 |
| mezzmur[m] | @LjL @ryouma - I'm referring to the censorship, misinformation, deception (telling jews it was for their own good)... The content is different, but the pattern is the same. Get compliance... I'm just saying that the GOV hasn't made it's case, and they are taking away liberties, imposing censorship and not answering valid questions | 23:17 |
| tinwhiskers | hey metreo, I was curious what you meant about china censoring pence. I missed the debate. What happened? | 23:17 |
| tinwhiskers | mezzmur[m]: yes, but that is not the same as "all the data is BS". | 23:17 |
| metreo | he was towing the party line about "blame china" etc and the feed went to a test pattern in China | 23:18 |
| tinwhiskers | oh. lol | 23:18 |
| metreo | it all happened live | 23:18 |
| tinwhiskers | fair enough I guess | 23:18 |
| metreo | yeah not even subtle | 23:18 |
| LjL | a test pattern? | 23:18 |
| metreo | Like colored bars apparently | 23:18 |
| LjL | like, it fortuitously replaced a TV test pattern of a Chinese TV station? | 23:18 |
| tinwhiskers | the blame china thing is a bit silly and provocative. It's no surprise whatsoever they would cut that. | 23:18 |
| mezzmur[m] | @timwhisters -- stop nitpicking, thee is a lot of misinformation both mainstream and non-mainstream. | 23:19 |
| metreo | it all happened in China, like they literally pulled the plug | 23:19 |
| metreo | So I've heard ^^ | 23:19 |
| tinwhiskers | the republican memo saying to the effect of deflect everything to blame china, kinda makes any blame of china very hollow and merely a provocation to them | 23:19 |
| LjL | mezzmur[m], you better *start* nitpicking, because these things are nuanced. my quiet for you won't be, i think it's belated | 23:19 |
| metreo | Didn't care to fact check yet | 23:19 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for World: +22078 cases (now 37.2 million), +468 deaths (now 1.1 million) since 32 minutes ago — Brazil: +20144 cases (now 5.1 million), +450 deaths (now 149639) since 5 hours ago — Wyoming, US: +243 cases (now 7335) since a day ago — US: +1410 cases (now 7.9 million), +12 deaths (now 218356) since 32 minutes ago | 23:20 |
| tinwhiskers | I wouldn't expect anything less of china than to cut any feed from anyone that is critical of them. That's just their nature and nothing to write home about. | 23:20 |
| LjL | metreo, that makes me wonder *who* caused this fortuitous event to happen. like, the way i see it (maybe naively), it could have been *either* the US or China | 23:20 |
| mezzmur[m] | How about digging for some facts that go deeper than raw numbers of cases/deaths? | 23:21 |
| LjL | mezzmur[m], you ask something like that, and yet you say you still couldn't give https://covid19.specops.network a look. can't you guess that site is a long list of studies that we sometimes painstakingly gathered during these months? | 23:21 |
| LjL | maybe we've gone deeper in different directions, but you can't accuse us of "not going deeper" without even knowing us, or the material this channel has gathered | 23:22 |
| LjL-Matrix | You've earned a quiet, which you will lose in about 30 minutes if you decide to stay and change the tone a little | 23:23 |
| ryouma | who is they? is this a vague impression only? do you apply this at the federal level and to such governors as florida's? --- 14:17 <mezzmur[m]> @LjL @ryouma - I'm referring to the censorship, misinformation, deception (telling jews it was for their own good)... The content is different, but the pattern is the same. Get compliance... I'm just saying that the GOV hasn't made it's case, and they are taking away lib | 23:23 |
| ryouma | erties, imposing censorship and not answering valid questions | 23:23 |
| tinwhiskers | metreo: here's a copy of the memo: https://static.politico.com/80/54/2f3219384e01833b0a0ddf95181c/corona-virus-big-book-4.17.20.pdf | 23:24 |
| ryouma | if anything mask orders are against an authoritarian's interest. it covers your face so you cannot be tracked as readily with photos and face recognition. it slows down pandemic, we think, so it removes pretexts and justifications. | 23:26 |
| LjL | ryouma, well, to vote, we were required (*) to take off our masks (which was otherwise mandatory) during identification with an official at the entrance | 23:28 |
| LjL | i tell you if i had known that in advance, i probably wouldn't have voted | 23:29 |
| ryouma | yeah i think a lot of this is int he us context (just a guess) so i am responding in kind | 23:29 |
| LjL | (*) except they didn't require me to, because evidently, my polling station was reasonable. but that was the rule | 23:29 |
| LjL | ryouma, yeah, i definitely suspect he's thinking of a US context. i just thought this was "amusing" to mention | 23:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: Trump health official blasts Nevada after state ends use of rapid coronavirus tests in nursing homes: A top U.S. health official urged Nevada to reverse its decision to suspend the use of two rapid coronavirus tests in nursing homes, saying there is no "scientific reason" to justify it. → https://is.gd/evNjKq | 23:33 |
| ryouma | to me the really concerning thing is NOT lockdowns and NOT mask orders -- they really don't concern me compared to other stuff wrt ratcheted loss of freedoms which do concern me. in the case of the pandemic what concerns me is triage rules and similar. | 23:45 |
| LjL | the economic impact does concern me | 23:46 |
| LjL | i'm just a believer in the idea that if you don't take care of the health aspect first, the economy will be doomed anyway | 23:47 |
| LjL | just out, and i think somewhat topical to the mess that this conversation has been https://xkcd.com/2370/ | 23:51 |
| ryouma | right i was referring to the freedom argument in isolation. of coure it is not isolated. those in taiwan (thought they might not be that free to begin with) are freer than they wouold be if they had acted like the us whent hey pandemic hit them. | 23:53 |
| ryouma | or was about to | 23:53 |
| ryouma | (might or might not*; i have not followed them or lived there) | 23:53 |
| ryouma | nice xkcd | 23:55 |
| tinwhiskers | lol | 23:58 |
| LjL | in Italy, the freedom argument wasn't touched upon much (although now we're also having anti-mask protests, but i'd call them "imported" if you know what i mean) | 23:59 |
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