| LjL | oh boo, imgur apparently deleted my pictures (which is fine according to their policy, but then they could have deleted them years ago!) | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| ryouma | i feel like crap always having bad decision making ability and not being able to decide even at last minute or get remotely enough information and having time pressure | 00:00 |
| LjL | i had some SSTV pictures taken with my scanner and, i think, a windows ce pda :P | 00:00 |
| LjL | they weren't great quality, but it was sort of magical to see pictures appear on the screen (slowly!) from sounds coming from airwaves from apparently another continent (since it was a russian callsign, but maybe they were in italy) | 00:01 |
| ryouma | regarding asian genes something like this https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200924/Tokyo-citizens-may-have-developed-COVID-19-herd-immunity-say-researchers.aspx | 00:02 |
| LjL | ryouma, well i gave you my opinion, but i can't actively tell you what to do | 00:02 |
| ryouma | but i don't think that is it | 00:02 |
| ryouma | wasn't asking you to | 00:02 |
| ryouma | appreciate your comments | 00:02 |
| LjL | ryouma, you don't know what the reddit thing was? | 00:02 |
| ryouma | perhaps a comment on that paper | 00:03 |
| ryouma | that that article refeferd to | 00:03 |
| LjL | hm maybe it will appear on google later if i paste your copypaste after they index it | 00:03 |
| ryouma | we are probalby cancelled by now. i hope i have not just caused major trouble for msyelf | 00:03 |
| LjL | ryouma, or you may have spared yourself major trouble | 00:03 |
| LjL | at this point it's kinda hard to know | 00:03 |
| ryouma | well not the news article. try going for the paper maybe | 00:03 |
| ryouma | yes | 00:03 |
| ryouma | MAYBE. don't know. | 00:03 |
| LjL | my decision-making ability isn't great, i sympathize with you but at some point you need to get this done. the idea of doing 4 teeth in one go does worry me though. | 00:04 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +205785 cases (now 12.3 million), +2053 deaths (now 260138) since 23 hours ago — Grenada: +5 cases (now 41) since a day ago | 00:05 |
| joerg | moin | 00:05 |
| gigasu_shida | ryouma: is it wisdom teeth? | 00:07 |
| ryouma | gigasu_shida: no, those were both removed on that side. all 4 we3re fully erupted. i think i have 1 left. | 00:08 |
| gigasu_shida | i can't believe you have four non-wisdom teeth that all need to come out | 00:09 |
| gigasu_shida | that seems like a misdiagnosis | 00:09 |
| LjL | Skunny, ... --- -- . / - .. -. . / .- -.. --- / .. / - .-. .. . --.(?) / - --- / .-.. . .- .-. -. / -- --- .-. ... . / -... ..- - / .. / .- . .-- . .-. / .- -.-. . ..- .- .-.. .-.. -.-- / .-.. . .- .-. -. . -.. / - --- / ..- -. -.. . .-. ... - .- -. -.. / .. - / ... --- / .. / -.-. --- ..- .-.. -.. / -. --- - / -.. --- / - .... . / . -..- .- -- :P | 00:09 |
| ryouma | i don't know my diagnoses. severe bone loss and severe periodontitis were things said by dentists. this new dentist was the first to say it was as bad as it is. i do not know what causes those things. | 00:14 |
| LjL | those may be good reasons to extract, as even after fixing the cavities and the root, the bone may just not keep the tooth there for very long | 00:15 |
| ryouma | yeah the dentist said in a video call that heroic efforts had been made to one tooth to save it althoug the dentist who did it didn't tell me that | 00:16 |
| ryouma | -.--/---/..- -.-./.-/-./--..-- .-/... ---/-./. --/../--./..../- ./-..-/.--././-.-./-/--..-- ..-/.../. ./--/.-/-.-./... -/--- -../--- --/---/.-./.../. -.-./---/-../. ../..-. -.--/---/..- .-/.-./. -./---/- .-/../--/../-./--. .-/- .-/-. ./-..-/.-/-- | 00:17 |
| LjL | ryouma, video call... after seeing you in person? (or else how could he assess that?) | 00:17 |
| LjL | oh my | 00:17 |
| ryouma | video call to my gf in response to her asking my questions like what diagnosis and so on. i was out of it because i had been vertical and jostled and stressed | 00:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: Ben Carson Says He Was 'Desperately Ill' With The Coronavirus: The secretary of the Department of Housing and Urban Development says in a Facebook post that he credits monoclonal antibody treatments with helping him recover from COVID-19. → https://is.gd/RlnUXi | 00:18 |
| ryouma | it turns out the oral surgeon office closed at 4, and so gf left message cancelling which really makes me nervos. hope they get it todsay. | 00:21 |
| LjL | ryouma, pfft, i attempted to read that without cheating, and then it was you cheating! (although i cheated in the end) | 00:22 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +210261 cases (now 12.3 million), +2071 deaths (now 260173) since 23 hours ago | 00:23 |
| ryouma | i have just enough executive function to at least give up partway on something like that | 00:23 |
| LjL | :P | 00:23 |
| ryouma | it would take me forever to even try such a thing | 00:23 |
| ryouma | and i'd have rsi and have to recover for a day | 00:23 |
| ryouma | (recover more than rsi) | 00:24 |
| LjL | i wrote mine by hand as can be inferred by the fact it's full of mistakes | 00:24 |
| LjL | (i checked after) | 00:24 |
| ryouma | India-Tango-Alfa-Lima-Yankee India-Sierra India-November November-Alfa-Tango-Oscar-Comma Romeo-India-Golf-Hotel-Tango-Query | 00:25 |
| ryouma | i won't annoy the channel with caesar | 00:25 |
| Skunny | lol LJl | 00:26 |
| LjL | crightq? | 00:27 |
| LjL | oh, comma! | 00:27 |
| LjL | yes, lol it is | 00:27 |
| LjL | but we don't use the NATO spelling alphabet to spell out things in normal settings | 00:28 |
| LjL | we use italian city names instead | 00:28 |
| ryouma | we dpm | 00:29 |
| LjL | i don't really know which names are standards so i sometimes have to make obvious the fact that i can't think of a city name with a given letter :P | 00:29 |
| ryouma | t jhafe a standard fpor that | 00:29 |
| ryouma | b as in boy, h as in... um... what sarts with an h?... um ... whatever | 00:29 |
| LjL | yeah, same here, but with cities :P | 00:30 |
| LjL | except we borrowed Hotel for H, since italian words don't really start with H | 00:30 |
| LjL | i don't know if there is an actual standard, but i think some people are more proficient in it and tend to always use the same set of cities | 00:31 |
| ryouma | https://leons.im/posts/phonetic-alphabet/ | 00:31 |
| LjL | also: spelling bees are not a thing in our schools (or, i suspect, any schools but english ones) | 00:31 |
| LjL | ryouma, i know the NATO alphabet, at least passively, mainly from listening to ATC recordings | 00:32 |
| ryouma | we are just glad we don't have kanji | 00:32 |
| ryouma | no spelling bees in .jp either | 00:33 |
| LjL | but kanji are actually a lot better and superior to alphabet </many Japanese people> | 00:33 |
| ryouma | an just exactly what do they do to indicate which kanji they are using when speaking? | 00:33 |
| LjL | draw it in the air, from what i've sometimes read :P | 00:33 |
| LjL | or | 00:33 |
| ryouma | that';s only when they know hte other does not know the kanji | 00:34 |
| ryouma | which one* | 00:34 |
| ryouma | and only for names usually | 00:34 |
| ryouma | but normjally they would provide alternate pronunciations or meanings | 00:34 |
| LjL | ryouma, there was a Yuta video where they go around asking people from the street if they can actually spell (in kanji) some words, and i remember that some of them ask "xxxxx as in 'menu'?" ('menu' said in english) | 00:34 |
| LjL | so like, they have so many homophones that to clarify which word they actually mean, and hence, which kanji should be written, they ask if the word they have in mind is the right one IN ENGLISH | 00:35 |
| LjL | or in katakanized english, whatever | 00:35 |
| ryouma | not surprised. there was oe where they showed a bunch of kanji and most on the street did not know them. | 00:35 |
| ryouma | yuta? | 00:35 |
| LjL | ryouma, "That Japanese Man Yuta", it's a Japanese youtuber who moved to America | 00:36 |
| LjL | he sends out his troops in Japan or sometimes goes there to make videos *in* Japan, other than that, he just explains stuff about Japanese from wherever he lives in america | 00:36 |
| ryouma | but yes english spelling is probably most crazy in world, at a guess | 00:37 |
| LjL | there is a video where he spends several minutes figuring out how to type his father's name in a word processor, to make a point about how arbitrary and different from normal words "name kanji" are :P | 00:37 |
| LjL | ryouma, well at least among spellings based on the latin alphabet, probably | 00:37 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +208502 cases (now 12.3 million), +2002 deaths (now 260184) since 23 hours ago | 00:37 |
| LjL | i'd say japanese is crazier overall | 00:37 |
| ryouma | there is a society for promoting writing japanese in katakana. i'd have chosen hiragana. | 00:38 |
| ryouma | also, they have typewriters with kana on them. kids use them. then adults use an input method using romaji. | 00:38 |
| LjL | ryouma, Yuta has a video on that. he proposes that using a mixture of hiragana and katakana would work acceptably, but using just one of them would not, at least not without adding word spacing | 00:39 |
| ryouma | (normal keyboards have kana but adults don't use them) | 00:39 |
| ryouma | i'd add spaces | 00:39 |
| ryouma | and use katakana too | 00:39 |
| LjL | some adults use kana keyboards! they are among the fastest typists | 00:39 |
| ryouma | til | 00:39 |
| ryouma | it makes sense, idk why they don't | 00:39 |
| LjL | ryouma, i don't know, but the kana keyboard makes your hands stretch quite a bit i guess | 00:40 |
| LjL | can't quite stay on the home row | 00:40 |
| ryouma | the font for the katakan was ugly | 00:40 |
| LjL | ryouma, also in the early days of computers, it was just easier to type latin characters (i remember on IRCNet they had a japanese channel but everyone just used romaji there) so maybe that's when the habit formed | 00:41 |
| ryouma | my ability to deal with im is so bad that i just use that | 00:42 |
| ryouma | my brainj and software can't handle im | 00:42 |
| LjL | i often make a mess while trying to use it | 00:42 |
| ryouma | ther eis no ruby for one thing | 00:42 |
| LjL | most of the time i forget that i have to type enter to make the word actually stick, otherwise when i go back to english, it deletes what i just typed, which is quite annoying | 00:42 |
| LjL | well i don't actually know japanese even to a basic conversational level | 00:43 |
| LjL | 私はイタリア人です pretty much the only thing i can write/say fluently | 00:43 |
| ryouma | you knew a character i was surprised you knew and didn't know a word i was surprised you didn't know | 00:45 |
| LjL | well i throw things into my brain but i don't get to decide what sticks | 00:45 |
| ryouma | kono oto tomare -- idk how advanced oto is but much more than tomare | 00:46 |
| LjL | i think for many of the kanji i "know", i don't actually know how to pronounce them (in any way) | 00:46 |
| ryouma | well a bit anyway | 00:46 |
| LjL | ryouma, 音? but that's a term/kanji i often found in the software of my Zaurus PDA, which was the first thing that got me introduced to japanese (a friend found it lost in the street in high school) | 00:47 |
| LjL | ryouma, and to show how my memory works - now that you say that sentence, i remember that we covered it before, but i *still* don't remember what tomare is | 00:47 |
| joerg | google is ultra lame, doesn't even convert morse code in translate.google | 00:47 |
| LjL | joerg, :P Brainstorm used to have it, but as many other things in Brainstorm, it broke | 00:48 |
| LjL | and i did not fix it | 00:48 |
| ryouma | joerg: use emacs | 00:48 |
| ryouma | one of the imperative forms for stop | 00:48 |
| joerg | I have a decocder on my home WS, but not on this laptop | 00:50 |
| LjL | ryouma, i can't conjugate verbs mostly. to a very limited extent. we were taught the rules for consonant+っ and consonant+ん in class but i really really hated that class and i've basically evicted all i've learned from my memory :( | 00:51 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Canada: +4248 cases (now 320202), +46 deaths (now 11324) since a day ago — US: +208397 cases (now 12.3 million), +1995 deaths (now 260188) since 23 hours ago | 00:51 |
| ryouma | consonant+n? | 00:52 |
| LjL | sorry that's confusing/wrong | 00:52 |
| LjL | i basically mean the stems to form the past tense and the -te form | 00:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from FDA Press Releases: FDA: Coronavirus (COVID-19) Update: November 20, 2020 → https://is.gd/68vDS7 | 00:54 |
| ryouma | s/ruby/english/ | 01:03 |
| LjL | ryouma, i understood ruby (furigana) though | 01:05 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Idaho, US: +1786 cases (now 89764), +10 deaths (now 845) since 23 hours ago — US: +209093 cases (now 12.3 million), +1994 deaths (now 260213) since 23 hours ago | 01:06 |
| ryouma | but i meant when you input, if you are being pretentious or reaching for better knowledge and therefore trying to use characters you barely or don't know, it will pop up a screen of character combinations wioth no meanings attached. you know the pronunciation because you are typiung it. | 01:07 |
| ryouma | therefore ruby/furigana was wrong | 01:07 |
| LjL | ah, true. well, it's not meant as a dictionary i guess | 01:07 |
| LjL | maybe there are "learner's" IMEs but i suspect on windows only | 01:08 |
| ryouma | i want all of all oses to have furigana though and also pop up dictionaries of various types | 01:09 |
| LjL | it would be nice | 01:11 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, ryouma: two points about the Japanese study that stand out before i read beyond the abstract: 1) they tested a fair amount of people but they were all working at the same company, even though they worked at "disparate locations in Tokyo" 2) "COVID-19 IgM and IgG antibodies were determined by a rapid COVID19 IgM/IgG test kit using fingertip blood" - that said, the first time they tested them they found 6%, then later they found 50%, so unless | 01:17 |
| LjL | they just messed up royally, something strange and unusual happened in the meantime | 01:17 |
| LjL | they also had a 12% who were positive the first time but negative the second time, whatever that may mean | 01:17 |
| LjL | anyway the fingertip assays have been widely rumored to be crap | 01:18 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for France: +22171 cases (now 2.1 million) since a day ago — US: +209885 cases (now 12.3 million), +1988 deaths (now 260223) since 23 hours ago — Canada: +4001 cases (now 320716), +53 deaths (now 11334) since 22 hours ago | 01:20 |
| LjL | https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-patient-decrees-idUSKBN2802GH ← i'm surprised that this is controversial. just seems like common-sense advice to me | 01:23 |
| tinwhiskers | interesting though. | 01:24 |
| tinwhiskers | I wonder if they had an office party or something :-/ | 01:24 |
| tinwhiskers | company party, rather. | 01:24 |
| tinwhiskers | Do you know when the 6% finidng was? | 01:25 |
| tinwhiskers | *finding | 01:25 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, the testing was conducted "from May 26 to August 25, 2020" so presumably even though not everyone will have been tested on the same date, they would date to around those two times | 01:26 |
| LjL | "Seroprevalence increased from 5.8 % to 46.8 % over the course of the summer. The most dramatic increase in SPR occurred in late June and early July, paralleling the rise in daily confirmed cases within Tokyo, which peaked on August 4." | 01:26 |
| de-facto | dang so Switzerland is running low on ICUs? | 01:27 |
| LjL | i find this comment interesting https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.21.20198796v1#comment-5088199998 although i don't really know what it means one way or the other... i just suspect it *could* be used to make a statistical guess on whether this study is compatible with PCR results | 01:27 |
| ryouma | LjL: i recently read an article about a disabled person in the uk (very anti-disabled country) who was pressured to give up his life-saving needed iv line to give to those who have covid | 01:28 |
| de-facto | https://icumonitoring.ch/ | 01:29 |
| ryouma | LjL: also there is "Meanwhile, it has been reported that a GP practice in Wales issued “do not resuscitate” (DNR) forms to a small number of patients, ensuring that emergency services would not be called should they contract coronavirus and their symptoms worsen. One adult social care provider has said that three of their services have been contacted by GPs to say that they have deemed the people they support sh | 01:29 |
| ryouma | ould all be DNR. One woman who has received the form so far is in her 20s." | 01:29 |
| LjL | de-facto, well see, why do you take that conclusion right away? you take it for granted that they're pushing people to be asking NOT to be resuscitated, which is what the controversy seems to be about. however, there are many people who simply do not wish to be resuscitated, regardless of how full ICUs are or are not, even at other times... this just happens to be a time when, sadly, elderly people are more likely to end up in the condition where a choice | 01:29 |
| LjL | has to be made | 01:29 |
| ryouma | they are pushing them | 01:30 |
| LjL | ryouma, i read about the IV line patient too (maybe i linked it to you), and certainly if DNR is actually being pushed that's not great, but where's the evidence here that they're pushing them? | 01:30 |
| ryouma | think about being one of them and being pressured would you feel like you are being treated as fully humand and fully enfranchised and safe in your society should hte pandemic get worse? | 01:30 |
| tinwhiskers | Testing rates in Japan are very low but it'd be hard not to notice all the cases required to go from 6%-46%. The surges they have had don't suggest any sort of genetic difference. | 01:30 |
| de-facto | i assumed it reading the article you linked | 01:30 |
| de-facto | "Warning that Switzerland was running low on intensive care beds, the Swiss Society for Intensive Care Medicine (SGI) called this week on the “especially imperiled”, including people over 60, or with health conditions like heart disease and diabetes, to put their wishes on paper in case the worst should happen." | 01:30 |
| LjL | ryouma, should the pandemic get worse, here, i'd be triaged | 01:30 |
| LjL | like everyone else, whether the government admits it or not | 01:31 |
| LjL | DNR doesn't even factor in, although resuscitation of COVID patients in ICU is very difficult and almost never succeeds, from what i read | 01:31 |
| LjL | mainly due to the long time it takes to don all the stuff before attempting CPR, shocking and so | 01:31 |
| tinwhiskers | I'm going to that 46% prevalence in Japan thing into my sceptical basket :-) | 01:31 |
| tinwhiskers | *going to file | 01:31 |
| ryouma | there was a thing about rates in heart attacks being normal | 01:32 |
| LjL | ryouma, and that included heart attacks in hospitalized COVID patients? | 01:32 |
| ryouma | yes | 01:33 |
| LjL | so we suddenly find that COVID does *not* actually put you at higher cardiovascular risk? | 01:33 |
| ryouma | disabled are already under attack and treated as less than human. they are not going to just say "ok, yes you are right it is right that i get pressured, however slight that pressure might seem to outsiders who don't know jack about it". | 01:34 |
| ryouma | some of them are going to remember things like ""He said: Perhaps it's right, these incurably sick people just cost the state money, they are just a burden to themselves and to others. Isn't it best for all concerned if they are taken out of the middle [of society]?" which actually was said | 01:35 |
| ryouma | (in a different country and time) | 01:35 |
| ryouma | the pressure against disabled being fully human has been growing in the uk | 01:35 |
| tinwhiskers | Hrm. I see Vietnam is starting to lose control again. I think we'll see some new restrictions there soon. | 01:36 |
| LjL | well i don't agree with the concept that it's wrong to say something that is, per se, a common-sense piece of advice (i'd actually make sure to tell my parents to think about making a decision, if the procedure to declare yourself as DNR weren't ridiculously complicated here) simply because a group may see it as undue pressuring even when it's really not | 01:36 |
| LjL | if it *is* pressuring, i.e. there is evidence that GPs are sending letters with an intent to push patients, that's a different thing | 01:36 |
| LjL | i just don't know whether there *is* this pressure in the Swiss case. if there is, that's bad, it should stop and the people responsible called out and potentially put under trial. if there isn't, honestly, that just means if someone is feeling pressured they are *feeling* something that isn't actually true. | 01:37 |
| ryouma | the iv article was pretty clear that the guy was repeatedly being asked to give up stuff that saved his life. even if you want to call that a mistake or somethign insteaed of pressuring, that is one thing. but sayign it is not a problem is another. | 01:37 |
| LjL | yes, that was clear | 01:38 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +203623 cases (now 12.3 million), +1946 deaths (now 260226) since 23 hours ago — Canada: +4223 cases (now 320938), +57 deaths (now 11338) since 23 hours ago | 01:38 |
| LjL | other things you said about the UK also seem clear | 01:38 |
| LjL | is the Swiss situation clear? | 01:38 |
| ryouma | idk | 01:38 |
| ryouma | didn't read | 01:38 |
| ryouma | talking about general problem -- which is a problem worldwide | 01:38 |
| LjL | ryouma, yes but when you say that the disabled "are not going to just say ok"... if they do this even when the intent is not bad, then it's on them | 01:38 |
| LjL | like the other day when i freaked out about the wastewater study thing and started saying that i kinda felt that italian studies were being attacked for being italian | 01:39 |
| ryouma | don't let my inability to use perfect rhetoric make it seem like the best response is mine | 01:39 |
| LjL | and you were like, i hadn't even actually considered the fact the study was done in italy by italians | 01:39 |
| LjL | whose fault is the misunderstanding, mine or yours? | 01:40 |
| LjL | i don't agree with the current thinking that seems to be gaining ground that what counts as offensive is only up to the person who claims to be offended to decide | 01:40 |
| ryouma | we are bringing up NEW trauma related to that discussion? | 01:40 |
| ryouma | i am still unable to consider saying i don't buy it anywhere in this channel ever | 01:41 |
| ryouma | that was not my meaning and now hte conv is too complex | 01:41 |
| ryouma | my point was you were imputing motives. and i was saying btw the country thing had not even crossed my mind. | 01:41 |
| LjL | i'm sorry that my behavior caused you to feel unable to consider saying something that is okay to say | 01:41 |
| LjL | yes | 01:42 |
| LjL | and i'm saying that since it had not even crossed your mind, it was my fault for imagining it had, not your fault because you somehow "should" have considered it | 01:42 |
| LjL | i mean, i had made a guess on motives. i supposed i am allowed to. but if my guess proves wrong, i don't get to say "B-BUT i felt offended anyway! you bad!" | 01:43 |
| ryouma | ok, let's not bring the current thinking into this. my motives are human rights oriented. they are NOT social justice motivated, identity politics motivated, or anything like the most common political pov on this, INCLUDING the disability commnity's most vocal advocates of recent years. | 01:45 |
| LjL | ryouma, well, do you agree that the existence of a personal choice to resuscitate or not is a good thing, in itself? | 01:45 |
| ryouma | i do not feel like being lumped in with those things. if you hate them, don't pass that onto me please. you might be surprised that i do not disagree on this point. --- 17:40 <LjL> i don't agree with the current thinking that seems to be gaining ground that what counts as offensive is only up to the person who claims to be offended to decide | 01:45 |
| LjL | (we only gained that choice recently, and it quite annoyed me that we didn't hav eit) | 01:45 |
| LjL | ryouma, i don't assume you endorse that thinking, it just seemed somewhat similar in this case so i brought it up | 01:47 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: Rudy Giuliani's son, Andrew, positive with COVID a day after attending news conference with father on election fraud claims (10214 votes) | https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/20/andrew-giuliani-tests-positive-covid-day-after-dads-conference/6356737002/ | https://redd.it/jxtwax | 01:48 |
| ryouma | i don't have an articulated opinion and if i did it would hinge quite significantly on context (including but not limited to policy, persecution, and special cases and things most don't know about), and potential for abuse, and history -- oh yes history -- not on the abstract good or bad. i recently learned the word ahistoric. and i think it is a valuable word in contexts like these. | 01:48 |
| LjL | i recognize there is a potential for abuse and coercion masked as choice, but that's the case in virtually everything that gets allowed as a choice | 01:48 |
| LjL | i think people should have a right to decide what gets done to them, including medically | 01:49 |
| ryouma | an incidental comment before i stop as my rsi is in a lot of pain. we live in an age of ideology. we live in a dangerous age. the two are not unrelated. | 01:49 |
| LjL | actually a common theme here, politically, has been saying that "ideology is dead" | 01:49 |
| LjL | but maybe that was more some years ago, not sure i'm hearing it as often | 01:49 |
| ryouma | by quite significantly i mean DISPOSITIVELY | 01:51 |
| LjL | %w dispositively | 01:51 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, dispositively — adverb: 1. (obsolete) In a dispositive manner; by natural or moral disposition → https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dispositively | 01:51 |
| LjL | well, i'm not sure i agree. but i'll drop it for tonight. | 01:52 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +204917 cases (now 12.3 million), +1952 deaths (now 260234) since 23 hours ago | 01:52 |
| ryouma | road to hell is paved with good intentions. witness eugenics pseudoscience ca. 1912. | 01:52 |
| LjL | i think the road to hell is more paved with hitler than it is with good intentions | 01:52 |
| LjL | good intentions may sometimes cause unforeseen consequences, sure | 01:53 |
| LjL | but they are still better than bad intentions | 01:53 |
| ryouma | idk what you are fearing. i am not telling you to not sign any forms you want. | 01:54 |
| LjL | and also i do believe that some things shouldn't be negotiable, not for me. it's my body and person, if i don't want to be electrically shocked with paddles, i *should* get to decide that i don't. if that possibility also comes with the risk that some will be "coerced into deciding", then let's deal with that as best as we can, but i'm not prepared to forfeit my right to that decision because of that. | 01:54 |
| ryouma | dispositive means it settles the question. the abstract or in principle good or bad of something is not hte only thing that needs considering. and i really ahve to wstop . | 01:54 |
| tinwhiskers | I think reminding people to get their affairs in order is a prudent thing to do. | 01:54 |
| LjL | ryouma, in Italy such forms do not exist | 01:54 |
| LjL | and they do not exist because many people think they shouldn't exist | 01:54 |
| LjL | so i'm fearing them not existing, and me not having something i consider a basic decisional power over myself | 01:55 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, and i'll add to that that since few people LOVE to think about what doctors will be doing to them while they're in the middle of agony, if you simply tell people "hey, get your affairs in order" they may not actually think of the DNR thing | 01:56 |
| LjL | i honestly hadn't | 01:56 |
| LjL | i also told my mother that we should set up video calling on our phones | 01:56 |
| tinwhiskers | true | 01:56 |
| LjL | it was unpleasant to make that tied to the possibility she ends up in hospital and i can't see her (or i do, or my dad does), but hey that can happen and COVID certainly make it a much more likely event | 01:57 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah | 01:57 |
| de-facto | "Pressekonferenz des Robert Koch-Instituts zur aktuellen Corona-Lage am 19.11.20" phoenix https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HTU14sbyLE <-- in case anyone is interested to watch RKIs briefing in German language | 02:01 |
| de-facto | %title | 02:01 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.youtube.com: Pressekonferenz des Robert Koch-Instituts zur aktuellen Corona-Lage am 19.11.20 - YouTube | 02:01 |
| de-facto | its from this Thursday | 02:01 |
| LjL | (it has subtitles that can be auto-translated to English, in case any non-German-speaker wants to listen) | 02:02 |
| de-facto | oh indeed good catch | 02:04 |
| LjL | god her tone is so flat | 02:05 |
| de-facto | she is very good though | 02:06 |
| de-facto | like precise with what she says | 02:06 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +209997 cases (now 12.3 million), +1991 deaths (now 260273) since 23 hours ago | 02:06 |
| ryouma | do you opr do yuou not sense a problem concerning the topic of the iv guy article? | 02:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: China's large-scale coronavirus tests on imported frozen foods may put more Australian exports on hold → https://is.gd/99C54I | 02:07 |
| mother | https://twitter.com/ninaburleigh/status/1329931778828750850 | 02:10 |
| ryouma | guess the origin of the document these qyuotes are from. approx year and country. --- " ... Presentation of special problems connected with the elimination of each of the several following classes of the socially unfit: (a) the feeble-minded class, (b) the pauper class, (c) the inebriate class, (d) the criminalistic class, (e) the epileptic class, (f) the insane class, (g) the asthenic or physically weak clas | 02:11 |
| ryouma | s, (h) those predisposed to specific diseases or the [[http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Diathetic][diathetic]] class, (i) the physically deformed, (j) those with defective sense organs, or the [[http://www.encyclo.co.uk/define/cacaesthesia][cacæsthetic]] class. ... Racial instinct demands that defectives shall not continue their unworthy traits to menace society." | 02:11 |
| mother | https://twitter.com/AP/status/1329927241220968449 | 02:11 |
| LjL | mother, don't be shy to use your own words too! | 02:13 |
| LjL | ryouma, of course i see a problem with the IV thing | 02:14 |
| ryouma | wasn't germany and wasn't 1930s-40s | 02:14 |
| mother | LjL: doesn't it pull the URL headers? | 02:14 |
| LjL | if i'm not stressing that enough it's because i consider it obvious | 02:14 |
| LjL | mother, no, i avoid that on purpose as i think it detracts to discussing things in context, however you can do %title <url> | 02:15 |
| mother | President Donald Trump’s eldest son, Donald Trump Jr., has been infected with the coronavirus.; just leaves Eric, Jared and Ivanka? | 02:15 |
| LjL | why is that important? | 02:15 |
| mother | do %title? | 02:15 |
| LjL | ryouma, i would guess it's from America, and honestly i don't have a guess for the dates, could be 1880-1950 | 02:16 |
| LjL | %title https://twitter.com/AP/status/1329927241220968449 | 02:16 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From twitter.com: error parsing title ('NoneType' object has no attribute 'string') | 02:16 |
| LjL | well, it works sometimes | 02:16 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +210677 cases (now 12.3 million), +2001 deaths (now 260283) since a day ago | 02:20 |
| de-facto | so even RKI says its not a reverse of trends yet... just a plateau | 02:21 |
| de-facto | that indirectly is a harsh critique on the Lockdown light since its declared goal was to come down to weekly 50/100k hence traceable incidence | 02:21 |
| LjL | de-facto, same here (to be honest it's more like a barely visible slowing down of increase) | 02:21 |
| de-facto | yeah | 02:22 |
| de-facto | and even the number of conducted tests was less this week than before | 02:22 |
| LjL | de-facto, and yet they're already talking of relaxing the measures for christmas shopping *groan* | 02:22 |
| LjL | de-facto, how many daily tests are you doing nowadays, ballpark? | 02:22 |
| de-facto | yet positivity rate was raising from 7.5% to 9% or such, so its hard to t | 02:22 |
| de-facto | so its quite clear: its not nearly enough containment to reach the goal of controlling it | 02:23 |
| de-facto | exactly my critique from the announcement of the "lockdown light" | 02:23 |
| de-facto | meh :/ | 02:23 |
| LjL | de-facto, we are in a less-light-lockdown (in lombardy, not italy as a whole) and it's not *really* working either. i mean, it's clearly doing something, but not abating cases | 02:23 |
| LjL | but our lockdown is "light" too compared to the one in spring | 02:24 |
| LjL | people are still going to work | 02:24 |
| LjL | (some) people are still going to school | 02:24 |
| LjL | but i had to carry a police form with me to go get my package lol | 02:24 |
| de-facto | yeah schools are going to stay open here (it looks like at any price), with is a mistake in my opinion, yet they say infection rates are lower there (i cant confirm, i would like to inspect those numbers myself before trusting such statements) | 02:25 |
| de-facto | its quite simple: contact rates are still to high to reduce incidence. | 02:25 |
| de-facto | hence: urgent need to force down contact rates (at any price). | 02:25 |
| de-facto | thats my opinion on this | 02:26 |
| LjL | also it's not enough to consider the infection rates *in schools* to infer the danger of keeping schools open | 02:26 |
| LjL | how many more people are taking public transport? how many more parents are seeing other parents? | 02:26 |
| de-facto | yeah its not that simple indeed | 02:26 |
| LjL | even if the kids don't get infected on public transport (for some reason), it means it's more crammed for everybody else | 02:27 |
| de-facto | i think its not the very young kids but maybe the ones around puberty and older that tend to have a social live with their school friends outside of school aswell | 02:28 |
| de-facto | its mainly those that are seen not wearing masks when not forced to do so and they just behave like nothing happened sometimes | 02:28 |
| de-facto | but i am not sure if they are the main problem, its just they also have their part in all of the (risk) contact rates | 02:29 |
| LjL | de-facto, yeah well, i do think they made a good decision here to close school above the first year of middle school (i.e. around 11-12) | 02:29 |
| de-facto | so for younger its open and for older its closed? | 02:29 |
| LjL | yes | 02:30 |
| de-facto | thats better than the other way around though | 02:30 |
| LjL | and by only leaving one year of middle schools open, they have more space in middle schools | 02:30 |
| de-facto | thats not too bad at all i guess | 02:30 |
| LjL | that's why i said i think it was a good decision | 02:30 |
| LjL | i was actually proposing this | 02:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Donald Trump Jr. infected by coronavirus and in isolation → https://is.gd/PJnZAz | 02:30 |
| LjL | to nobody who'd listen, of course, but still | 02:30 |
| de-facto | ooh indeed i read your message wrong lol | 02:30 |
| de-facto | yeah its sounds reasonable to do it like that, yet i still wish they would make more screening at schools | 02:31 |
| LjL | i've said it a few times, there are three reasons to do it like that | 02:31 |
| mother | LjL: what do you think of neck gaiters vs. cloth masks | 02:31 |
| LjL | 1) younger kids may be less likely to be infected / contagious (yes i know there are conflicting studies) | 02:31 |
| de-facto | also the private meetups, e.g. receiving friends and working colleagues etc might be a problem | 02:32 |
| LjL | 2) older kids are more likely to understand what remote learning is, and how to use it | 02:32 |
| de-facto | id suspect the main source of infections happening in the private non-public space, but i dont have data to backup this | 02:32 |
| LjL | 3) parents of younger kids would have to stay home, too, if younger kids stay home (or they'd have to call the grandparents or other caretakers, which would make things worse) | 02:32 |
| de-facto | yes exactly LjL | 02:32 |
| LjL | mother, i guess it depends on the material and on the number of layers, not so much on the fact itself of whether it's a neck gaiter or a mask | 02:33 |
| de-facto | whats a neck gaiter? | 02:33 |
| LjL | %tr >de neck gaiter | 02:33 |
| de-facto | ah i see on google images | 02:33 |
| mother | de-facto: its a face covering pulled up from the neck | 02:33 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, English to German: Hals-Gamasch (MyMemory) — Halsmanschette (Google) — Hals Gamasche (Apertium) | 02:34 |
| LjL | hehe yeah google image is often also a good "translator" | 02:34 |
| mother | seems to be a choice of those whom grudgingly don't want to wear even a cloth mask IMO | 02:34 |
| LjL | hypercorrection spotted! | 02:34 |
| de-facto | hmm it might be less leakage below and the sides, but still the material itself is the most important | 02:34 |
| LjL | well, i don't care, as long as it works | 02:34 |
| LjL | what he said | 02:35 |
| LjL | but these things are usually made to keep you warm | 02:35 |
| LjL | which is a different goal from stopping droplets | 02:35 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +206736 cases (now 12.3 million) since 23 hours ago — New Zealand: +6 cases (now 2019) since 23 hours ago — Canada: +3743 cases (now 320939) since 18 hours ago | 02:36 |
| LjL | so i'd say, if you want to get a neck gaiter, try to figure out what's a neck gaiter that is made for COVID (but dig deeper anyway, since too many things try to pass as COVID masks when they really are ridiculous) | 02:36 |
| de-facto | e.g. if its effect would be desired to go beyond just blocking the droplets trajectory from speaking out loud (e.g. catching them preventing a carrier to spit them around its perimeter) it would have to be a proper filtering material such as the super fine polypropylene fleece with electrostatic charge placed on its surface such as those N95 masks would have | 02:36 |
| LjL | also if you hate being seen wearing a mask, wear an FFP2 mask and cover it with a neck gaiter :P | 02:36 |
| LjL | de-facto, well the comparison mother was asking about was with cloth masks, though | 02:37 |
| de-facto | those N95/FFP2/FFP3 would also give some protection *for* the carrier and not just some protection *from* the carrier | 02:37 |
| LjL | but what is a cloth mask, there are so many things that are "cloth". | 02:37 |
| mother | seems like double masking is a trend, did it myself the other day | 02:38 |
| mother | bandana over N-95 | 02:38 |
| jacklsw | why bandana? | 02:39 |
| de-facto | those cloth masks might be effective when being unable to avoid close proximity to other people to protect them from the carrier spitting around infectious droplets | 02:39 |
| LjL | mother, actually wearing something other than a surgical mask over an N95 may not be a great idea | 02:39 |
| mother | ? | 02:40 |
| LjL | de-facto, my mom made a few cloth masks. i looked at the materials for some of them with my microscope. some look like they are tighly woven and with few empty spots, but others are full of "holes" that are not so small (larger than 0.1mm, probably by a fair bit) | 02:41 |
| mother | jacklsw: seems like the N95 is good by itself, so then no need for a medical mask over the N95 | 02:41 |
| LjL | mother, it's very important for an N95 mask not to become moist to avoid losing efficacy, so covering it with something that may trap moisture would be bad | 02:41 |
| LjL | mother, there are a few good reasons to be wearing a surgical mask over an N95, but they mostly have to do with being in an healthcare setting | 02:42 |
| de-facto | mother, well if you only have a few N95 but a lot of cheap surgical masks you might be able to protect the outer surface of the N95 from being contaminated too fast with putting a surgical over the N95 | 02:42 |
| LjL | ↑ | 02:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: U.S. could ‘see another 100,000 deaths by Inauguration Day’ from Covid, doctor says: Dr. Ashish Jha warns that the U.S. could “see another 100,000 deaths by Inauguration Day.” Connecticut Governor Ned Lamont explains what he's doing to control Covid. → https://is.gd/mPmsjC | 02:42 |
| LjL | which is what happens to a lot of healthcare workers | 02:42 |
| LjL | they switch surgical masks for every patient, but keep the same N95 below for a while | 02:43 |
| mother | a bandana is not effective at doing that? or a bandana more likely to gather moisture or both | 02:43 |
| de-facto | the outer surface of masks would have to be considered contaminated at some point so *never* touch it | 02:43 |
| LjL | also, a surgical mask protects you (to some extent) from things like splashes (saliva, blood, anything) from the patient, due to having a hydrorepellent layer, N95 masks don't | 02:44 |
| de-facto | yeah good point | 02:45 |
| mother | de-facto: i rotate through medical masks 1/day, then use them again, I usually just wear them in our elevator, so they are lightly used , only use the N95s shopping few times/month, also re-use those | 02:45 |
| LjL | mother, a bandana is whatever it is, it could trap moisture, or maybe not. you are just wearing something that's made in a tighly controlled way (your N95) and covering with something that you know nothing about | 02:45 |
| de-facto | yeah to be honest i also reuse my FFP3 mask and dry them, its not the recommended way but i never touch the fabric ever, i only handle it by the cords | 02:46 |
| LjL | i've always had a subjective impression of elevators being quite dangerous places. i've almost never taken mine since the epidemic began | 02:46 |
| de-facto | every tight room without air exchange and frequently used by people is a risk imho | 02:47 |
| LjL | de-facto, can you think of something that fits those characteristics in a more extreme way than an elevator? | 02:47 |
| de-facto | indeed barely could think of anything | 02:47 |
| LjL | if you asked me "what's a tight room without air exchange and frequently used by people?", i'd say "an elevator" | 02:47 |
| de-facto | yep | 02:48 |
| LjL | de-facto, and if you recall, the Chinese were going crazy in Wuhan with methods to avoid touching elevator buttons | 02:49 |
| mother | our building limits 4 / elevator, but in a large residential building, lot of potential for risks others take | 02:49 |
| LjL | they had sticks they used and then threw into a disinfectant solution to reuse later | 02:49 |
| LjL | but i always thought "are they sure it's not the air?" | 02:49 |
| de-facto | lol i do exactly that | 02:49 |
| de-facto | also the EC card terminals in stores i never ever touch with my fingers | 02:50 |
| mother | when covid started I sprayed bleach on the buttons a few times secretly.. | 02:50 |
| LjL | mother, uh, since the epidemic began, our buildings are all strictly one person per elevator (or more but only from the same household) | 02:50 |
| LjL | i'd totally not go into the elevator with a stranger | 02:50 |
| LjL | i can wait | 02:50 |
| LjL | de-facto, i do, but also i am horribly clumsy ;( | 02:51 |
| mother | no choice here, in fact, 1/3 elevators has been down for 6 months, with no real explanation | 02:51 |
| de-facto | we barely have any buildings beyond 3 floors here, so no elevators at all | 02:51 |
| LjL | de-facto, according to the latest data i had (which are some years old), we have the most elevators in the world... and i don't even mean per capita :P | 02:52 |
| mother | when covid started though, I was walking down 10 flights instead of using the elevator | 02:52 |
| LjL | i don't get it. what happens if you limit it to one per elevator? is your building so busy that queues would form outside? | 02:52 |
| de-facto | at university i was secretly holding my breath in the elevators LOL | 02:53 |
| mother | LjL: yeah there is some 200 units , and no stair access to go up, until the 1st residential floor | 02:53 |
| LjL | O.o | 02:54 |
| LjL | that latter part is kinda weird | 02:54 |
| de-facto | yeah wow, what if there is a power outage or fire | 02:55 |
| mother | LjL: sometimes a contractor or a cleaning lady or police/fire or someone moving might take over 1 of the elevator, Then we have 1 | 02:55 |
| LjL | de-facto, there has to be a fire staircase in US buildings | 02:55 |
| LjL | but it's usually not usable as a day-to-day thing | 02:55 |
| mother | de-facto: can exit at street level going down, but not up, idea would be to limit the meth heads, and their friends whom live here. | 02:56 |
| LjL | de-facto, yeah i had no idea there were buildings without, really | 02:56 |
| LjL | oh, like that | 02:56 |
| LjL | stairs in our buildings usually lead into a hall where the elevator also is | 02:57 |
| LjL | or elevators | 02:57 |
| de-facto | i see yeah i remember from americal movies, those ladders that would fold downwards when someone from above puts weight on them | 02:57 |
| de-facto | but i would hesitate to call those stairs | 02:57 |
| de-facto | *American | 02:58 |
| LjL | mother, i hinted at that before when i said hypercorrection, but just because i am a bit neurotic about language, and just for the record... you are using "whom" quite incorrectly where it should be "who" | 02:58 |
| mother | i'm not too concerned, at this stage, medical mask seems fine , for how infrequent I go out anyway | 02:58 |
| LjL | de-facto, they are stairs until you reach the part that fold downwards. that's a ladder :P it's to stop people from using them to get into the building | 02:58 |
| de-facto | yeah makes sense | 02:59 |
| de-facto | still id prefer proper stairs | 02:59 |
| LjL | mother, it's not a cumulative thing, you know. you just have to share the lift (or the air) with someone who has the virus *once* | 02:59 |
| LjL | de-facto, well, on the other hand, in most buildings here we do *not* have fire escape stairs | 02:59 |
| LjL | and i've had Americans be like "what?!" when i've said that before | 03:00 |
| LjL | (but we also have a much, much lower rate of fatal fires) | 03:00 |
| LjL | the other "what?!" thing for Americans is that most apartments here don't have smoke detectors | 03:00 |
| mother | LjL: my understanding is it is 15 minutes cumulative in 24 hours < 6 feet, in general | 03:00 |
| LjL | eh | 03:01 |
| LjL | my understanding is that your understanding is a warped version of an understanding that's more a general guideline for deciding things like thresholds in contact tracing (apps) | 03:01 |
| mother | cdc changed it from 15 minutes, 6 feet to 24 hours | 03:01 |
| LjL | yeah well | 03:01 |
| LjL | that's ridiculous | 03:01 |
| de-facto | one cough from an infected can give it to you in 1 second | 03:02 |
| mother | well maybe I should switch back to the N95 | 03:02 |
| LjL | how much do you pay for an N95? | 03:02 |
| Skunny | I still em from work :-P | 03:03 |
| mother | just concerned using it too often, and will become less effective, it's quite old anyway , we were provided them for TB | 03:03 |
| Skunny | steal | 03:03 |
| Skunny | lol | 03:03 |
| LjL | Skunny, you can't be at work you have COVID | 03:03 |
| Skunny | bro | 03:03 |
| Skunny | work is like "ass in chair" | 03:04 |
| Skunny | no WFH for you | 03:04 |
| Skunny | I should my results from yesterday tomorrow | 03:04 |
| LjL | okay but people who have COVID are supposed to quarantine | 03:04 |
| Skunny | *get | 03:04 |
| de-facto | in Germany they want to give N95/FFP2 to elderly or risk group on subsidized basis, e.g. they say around 5€ or 5$ per mask would be too much | 03:04 |
| mother | https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/21/health/cdc-covid-close-contact-guidelines-cumulative/index.html | 03:04 |
| LjL | de-facto, it does seem like too much, in general. i can get KN95s for €2.50 | 03:05 |
| de-facto | yeah even that | 03:05 |
| LjL | mother, i don't doubt that those are the guidelines. however, guidelines are guidelines, they are made to reduce the risk on a population perspective, they say almost *zero* about your individual risk from meeting someone | 03:06 |
| de-facto | dang i hate those auto playing video websites | 03:07 |
| LjL | and i hate not figuring out why Brainstorm doesn't like Twitter titles, or vice versa | 03:08 |
| LjL | The new definition includes exposures adding up to a total of 15 minutes spent six feet or closer to an infected person. Previously, the CDC defined a close contact as 15 minutes of continuous exposure to an infected individual. | 03:09 |
| LjL | The agency changed the definition after a report from Vermont of a corrections officer who became infected after several brief interactions with coronavirus-positive inmates -- none of them lasting 15 minutes, but adding up over time. | 03:09 |
| LjL | this is pretty warped up | 03:09 |
| LjL | the *previous* "15 minutes" definition was arbitrary to begin with | 03:09 |
| LjL | so now they conclude that because this person had to deal with multiple inmates | 03:10 |
| LjL | that their COVID resulted from the multiple exposure | 03:10 |
| LjL | and not from a single exposure, however long, to someone highly enough infectious | 03:10 |
| LjL | bureaucratic nonsense, maybe the CDC wants to be the next WHO | 03:10 |
| de-facto | Skunny, idk i just can repeat that too, as long as tests are positive one should consider oneself as being infectious to other people (those RNA fragments in the nasal swab have to originate from a fully functional virus particle at some point, so if they did not clear yet even from the upper respiratory tract the assumption that there are some infectious among them is not too far fetched), so stay away from other people and if thats not | 03:10 |
| de-facto | avoidable for some stupid reasons (like they force you to break quarantine) always wear a N95 without vent never take it off | 03:10 |
| mother | LjL: some schools in Georgia or whatever, were having kids move chairs every 14 minutes :) | 03:11 |
| LjL | mother, this is what happens when guidelines get "interpreted" by stupid people | 03:11 |
| LjL | or are themselves expressed and exposed in a stupid way | 03:11 |
| LjL | needless to say, such a scheme makes absolutely no scientific sense whatsoever | 03:12 |
| de-facto | Skunny, btw how is your wife doing, I hope better already since fever went away? | 03:12 |
| LjL | if anything it increases everyone's vulnerability | 03:12 |
| mother | /when people in charge don't believe in CV | 03:12 |
| de-facto | what i heard in podcasts is that normally the infection would go from upper respiratory tract (nasal and pharyngeal regions) down the throat into the lower respiratory tract (cough and maybe even lung) as well as digestive system (sometimes causing diarrhea etc) and at some point the nasal swabs would already become negative in the PCR while live virus still would be able to be found on the lungs mucus so samples from there would be | 03:16 |
| de-facto | positive | 03:16 |
| de-facto | at late stage patients were PCR positive in the stool but it was not clear it thats infectious virus or just damaged virion particles "thrown into trash" by the carriers body | 03:18 |
| de-facto | hence all those studies about sewer samples in big cities | 03:18 |
| de-facto | as far as i remember they said in the podcasts that with the clearance in the upper respiratory tracts the viral shedding of patients onto their environment would lower significantly when the virus is more in the lower parts (e.g. would have to be coughed up) | 03:20 |
| de-facto | thats also a reason why SARS-CoV-1 is considered to be less infectious (and more severe in terms of fatality) than SARS-CoV-2: the former goes deep into the respiratory tract while the later first seems to replicate in the upper respiratory tract | 03:21 |
| de-facto | afaik same for MERS-CoV vs SARS-CoV-2 | 03:21 |
| de-facto | interestingly thats also the reason the D614G mutation of SARS-CoV-2 is considered to be more infectious: it increased the ability to initially replicate in the upper respiratory tract hence spread all over the world today because of this advantage over non-mutated strains, yet afaik is not considered to cause more severe progressions in later stages | 03:24 |
| de-facto | Skunny, anyhow what i wanted to say is that i am a but puzzled about that a nasal swab is still positive after such long time, hence consider yourself infectious | 03:25 |
| de-facto | *bit puzzled | 03:25 |
| LjL | i've heard of many people whose nasal swabs have stayed positive for a loooong time | 03:51 |
| LjL | say, a month or more | 03:51 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, i'm a bit bewildered by how twitter pages work, as to the best of my understanding, https://twitter.com/ap/status/1329927241220968449 (just the one i'm using to test) doesn't *have* a title, as in <head><title>. your bot does grab the title "correctly" (well, it's the content of the tweet, which appears to also be what the title shows up as in my browser), do you know what it grabs and how? | 03:53 |
| tinwhiskers | one sec... | 03:53 |
| tinwhiskers | No, I don't seem to do anything special for twitter. | 03:55 |
| de-facto | LjL, interesting, did those stay symptomatic? | 03:58 |
| LjL | color me confused | 03:58 |
| LjL | de-facto, not necessarily | 03:58 |
| LjL | or not highly symptomatic | 03:59 |
| LjL | it's kinda hard to draw the line between "symptomatic" and "fatigued from recently having covid" | 03:59 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, fun... when i save the page from my browser, it does have a <title>, but when i wget it (or get it from brainstorm), it doesn't. do you use a browser useragent? | 04:00 |
| tinwhiskers | ah | 04:00 |
| de-facto | i am puzzled about this because i thought that especially the mucous membranes should be able to clear its surface e.g. by producing liquids that normally would end up in a handkerchief or such | 04:01 |
| de-facto | that is if there is no "factory" at work constantly producing a supply of new virions | 04:01 |
| tinwhiskers | I'll check what happens in a bit. | 04:02 |
| de-facto | so afaik they use PCR swabs to test patients in hospitals if they can be put out of isolation and into more of a standard care situation for monitoring etc | 04:02 |
| de-facto | not sure if they all use the same upper limit for cycle threshold values though | 04:03 |
| LjL | de-facto, but i think there are also some types of immunity that have difficulty reaching those locations | 04:03 |
| de-facto | yet if those locations are not reached by immunologic reactions cleaning out virions from them why assuming the virions would not be infectious then? | 04:05 |
| LjL | de-facto, wait who said they aren't infectious? | 04:05 |
| de-facto | e.g. how come there are those progressions upper respiratory tract PCR negative while lower respiratory tracts and digestive tract still positive? | 04:05 |
| LjL | de-facto, well it's not like *all* patients remain positive in the swab... it happens to some portion of them | 04:06 |
| LjL | i don't know why | 04:06 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, mystery solved, i think...? | 04:07 |
| tinwhiskers | ok | 04:07 |
| LjL | %title https://twitter.com/ninaburleigh/status/1329931778828750850 | 04:07 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From twitter.com: Twitter | 04:07 |
| de-facto | LjL some seem to assume that after some time quarantine can be broken (see above), hence i try to argue against that when a PCR from upper respiratory tract is still positive i would assume that under the virions shed onto the environment at least some of them might still be infectious to other people in perimeter | 04:07 |
| LjL | it's not a great title, and the title in my browser is much more verbose | 04:07 |
| LjL | but clearly, setting a Firefox useragent changed things | 04:07 |
| de-facto | yeah its always a probabilistic (normal?) distribution, most of them being in the median but some of them distributing also on the edges | 04:08 |
| tinwhiskers | it's more than what I get for that url | 04:08 |
| LjL | de-facto, actually, i seem to have a vague recollection that they were evaluating a possible rule here where if you still tested positive after more than n days, you'd be allowed to end the quarantine anyway | 04:08 |
| LjL | i'm not sure if they eventually made it a rule | 04:08 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, but your bot posts the whole tweet basically | 04:08 |
| de-facto | id be interested in the reasoning behind this | 04:08 |
| tinwhiskers | not for that one | 04:09 |
| LjL | oh | 04:09 |
| LjL | now it's even funnier | 04:09 |
| LjL | %title https://twitter.com/ap/status/1329927241220968449 | 04:09 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From twitter.com: Twitter | 04:09 |
| de-facto | wtf why does twitter not have a <title> in its html? is that not required by standards? | 04:10 |
| de-facto | yeah its a non-standard MESS, ugh | 04:11 |
| de-facto | "Error: Element head is missing a required instance of child element title." | 04:11 |
| de-facto | twitter unable to produce valid HTML LMAO how embarrassing for them | 04:12 |
| LjL | de-facto, but it *does* have a <title> depending on your useragent string | 04:12 |
| de-facto | if it delivers something that claims to be HTML it always has to have a <title> yet it does not | 04:13 |
| LjL | i'm not defending it, i'm just describing its behavior | 04:13 |
| LjL | "Mozilla/5.0" wouldn't do the trick | 04:14 |
| LjL | "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:13.0) Gecko/13.0 Firefox/13.0" appears to | 04:14 |
| LjL | although i'd like the fuller title that tinsoldier gets instead of just "Twitter" | 04:14 |
| de-facto | <!DOCTYPE html> without <title> is not valid. | 04:14 |
| LjL | i get it | 04:15 |
| de-facto | yeah so you would have to deal with that mess they deliver you | 04:15 |
| LjL | what the... | 04:16 |
| LjL | if i use my own browser's useragent (and my browser does seem to get a title), it doesn't give Brainstorm a title | 04:16 |
| LjL | %title https://twitter.com/ap/status/1329927241220968449 | 04:16 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From twitter.com: error parsing title ('NoneType' object has no attribute 'string') | 04:16 |
| LjL | %title https://twitter.com/ninaburleigh/status/1329931778828750850 | 04:16 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From twitter.com: error parsing title ('NoneType' object has no attribute 'string') | 04:16 |
| LjL | can it possibly be generating a title from javascript? | 04:17 |
| de-facto | why not? yet look at the source view from your browser | 04:18 |
| de-facto | if it contains a title, try to replicate all HTTP headers with Brainstorms request | 04:19 |
| LjL | de-facto, in the source view it has a title, but i don't know if that could come from javascript | 04:19 |
| de-facto | source view or developer tools for current page? | 04:19 |
| de-facto | dont they have an api for such things? | 04:20 |
| de-facto | i would not want to touch their mess with a 10 foot pole | 04:20 |
| LjL | de-facto, oh, i see... the title is there in the "Inspector" (F12), but not in source view (Ctrl+U) | 04:21 |
| de-facto | yeah hence generated dynamically | 04:21 |
| LjL | de-facto, Brainstorm's %title function is generic, i cannot use every individual website's API for it... | 04:21 |
| de-facto | ah i see | 04:21 |
| LjL | and i also cannot interpret their javascript -.- | 04:22 |
| LjL | so i guess tweets will remain untitled | 04:22 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for France: +17259 cases (now 2.1 million) since 20 hours ago — Canada: +4495 cases (now 321691), +64 deaths (now 11348) since 20 hours ago — Netherlands: +2985 cases (now 473932), +25 deaths (now 8834) since 20 hours ago | 04:23 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: Dr. Anthony Fauci Reveals Santa Claus Has ‘Innate Immunity’ from COVID-19 (10123 votes) | https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/dr-anthony-fauci-reveals-santa-claus-has-innate-immunity-from-covid-19/ar-BB1bdqSA?fbclid=IwAR3wC4Tubtdr7nCCgjqIWP_S4ZlgiZZhi4dkOKmJGIZQqLp5JhxDdi2j4g8&ocid=uxbndlbing | https://redd.it/jxwaz0 | 04:24 |
| de-facto | hmm there is a legacy version without JS that is shut down on 15 Dec 2020 that actually delivers HTML with a <title>Twitter</title> LOL | 04:25 |
| LjL | de-facto, well that's probably what i'm getting with my second useragent | 04:26 |
| LjL | but that means i don't need to bother using that useragent, if they will shut it down anyway | 04:26 |
| LjL | de-facto, is it standards-compliant if there is no static <title> but js generates it? | 04:26 |
| de-facto | visiting https://twitter.com/ap/status/1329927241220968449 without JS it says "We've detected that JavaScript is disabled in your browser. Would you like to proceed to legacy Twitter?" licking "Yes" gets me to https://mobile.twitter.com/AP/status/1329927241220968449 | 04:27 |
| de-facto | i dont think that the HTML standard would allow it to become complete only by some JS quirks, i would consider twitter to deliver non-compliant mess | 04:27 |
| LjL | ridiculous. besides, their new interface is much worse than the old | 04:29 |
| de-facto | they have a JSON api or such | 04:30 |
| LjL | i know | 04:30 |
| de-facto | maybe they stick to some sort of standard there? | 04:31 |
| LjL | i use it for the parts of Brainstorm that are twitter-specific | 04:31 |
| de-facto | ah | 04:31 |
| LjL | but i'm not going to make a hack for %title to deal with one particular site | 04:31 |
| de-facto | %title https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00502-w | 04:52 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.nature.com: COVID research updates: Immune responses to coronavirus persist beyond 6 months | 04:52 |
| de-facto | %title https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.15.383323v1 | 04:52 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.biorxiv.org: Immunological memory to SARS-CoV-2 assessed for greater than six months after infection | bioRxiv | 04:52 |
| de-facto | "Sporadic accounts of coronavirus reinfection and reports of rapidly declining antibody levels have raised concerns that immunity to SARS-CoV-2 could dwindle within weeks of recovery from infection. Shane Crotty at the La Jolla Institute for Immunology in California and his colleagues analysed markers of the immune response in blood samples from 185 people who had a range of COVID-19 symptoms; 41 study participants were followed for at | 04:53 |
| de-facto | least 6 months" | 04:53 |
| ryouma | https://sci-hub.scihubtw.tw/10.1016/j.hjdsi.2020.100489 | 04:53 |
| de-facto | "The team found that participants’ immune responses varied widely. But several components of immune memory of SARS-CoV-2 tended to persist for at least 6 months. Among the persistent immune defenders were memory B cells, which jump-start antibody production when a pathogen is re-encountered, and two important classes of T cell: memory CD4+ and memory CD8+ T cells" | 04:53 |
| ryouma | idk if this takes snowbirds or loose regulations into account | 04:54 |
| de-facto | whats that ryouma ? | 04:55 |
| ryouma | patient to physician ratio in usa states | 04:55 |
| ryouma | at peak | 04:55 |
| de-facto | https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/j.hjdsi.2020.100489 | 04:55 |
| de-facto | (that one works for me while the upper one is broken for me) | 04:56 |
| Skunny | https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-b03hKoN_cuo/X7iRMvOk1HI/AAAAAAAA1tY/4t7N8euEPqYlRkvWFIKZ6FRIZ_CKhqiWACK8BGAsYHg/s0/2020-11-20.png | 05:02 |
| tinwhiskers | self-doxed? | 05:06 |
| Skunny | finally a neg result after 20 days | 05:07 |
| tinwhiskers | nice. well done. | 05:09 |
| Skunny | now Mando time | 05:10 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Coronavirus (COVID-19) Update: FDA Announces Advisory Committee Meeting to Discuss COVID-19 Vaccine Candidate (81 votes) | https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-announces-advisory-committee-meeting-discuss-covid-19-vaccine | https://redd.it/jy10no | 05:13 |
| ryouma | https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-11-mmr-vaccine-covid-.html | 05:19 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Belgium: +3416 cases (now 553680), +156 deaths (now 15352) since a day ago | 05:23 |
| de-facto | Skunny, nice congratz | 05:23 |
| de-facto | still be a bit careful though | 05:23 |
| de-facto | ryouma, hmm thats interesting they found a correlation between MMR II titers and COVID-19 severity, still the question is if its causative or maybe due to a shared background causing this, e.g. property of the individual immune system | 05:32 |
| de-facto | wow Belgium really wrestles it down | 05:32 |
| de-facto | thats awesome | 05:32 |
| LjL | i don't really know what measures they took | 05:32 |
| LjL | is it possible they actually have some degree of herd immunity now? (i know, i know!) | 05:33 |
| LjL | but they were being hit so hard | 05:33 |
| de-facto | http://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Belgium&cumulative=no&smooth=yes | 05:33 |
| de-facto | so if this is real incidence and not testing related thats absolutely awesome | 05:33 |
| LjL | iirc it's partly testing related | 05:34 |
| de-facto | incidence peaked at 27th of Oct, Fatalities at least plateaued at 7th of Nov | 05:34 |
| LjL | de-facto, http://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Belgium&cumulative=no&smooth=yes&legacy=no | 05:34 |
| LjL | well, testing peaked 26 of october :P | 05:35 |
| de-facto | well ok but decline in incidence is more than in testing (relative to peak) | 05:36 |
| de-facto | https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/tests-per-confirmed-case-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&time=earliest..latest&country=~BEL | 05:38 |
| de-facto | https://epistat.wiv-isp.be/covid/ | 05:39 |
| de-facto | https://datastudio.google.com/embed/reporting/c14a5cfc-cab7-4812-848c-0369173148ab/page/QTSKB | 05:40 |
| de-facto | https://datastudio.google.com/embed/reporting/c14a5cfc-cab7-4812-848c-0369173148ab/page/uTSKB | 05:40 |
| de-facto | it actually looks like its real | 05:40 |
| de-facto | like their hospitalizations plateaued or declined too | 05:41 |
| de-facto | idk what they did but it seems to work | 05:43 |
| de-facto | %title https://imgur.com/a/6pdaEAv https://i.imgur.com/2v0OuyW.png source: https://epistat.sciensano.be/Data/COVID19BE_tests.csv | 05:58 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From imgur.com: COVID-19 Belgium Tests, Cases, Positivity - Album on Imgur | 05:58 |
| de-facto | LjL, ^^ | 05:58 |
| de-facto | positivity is 100k * cases / tests in that graph | 05:59 |
| de-facto | so with its peak at ~30000 it means 30% or from 3 tests one positive | 06:01 |
| de-facto | hmm ourworldindata says 4 tests per positive peak | 06:02 |
| de-facto | i am very glad for Belgium that it seems they are about to really wrestle it down | 06:03 |
| de-facto | they have been hit so hard two times now | 06:04 |
| de-facto | linked from https://epistat.wiv-isp.be/covid/ | 06:04 |
| de-facto | https://datastudio.google.com/embed/reporting/c14a5cfc-cab7-4812-848c-0369173148ab/page/cUWaB | 06:05 |
| de-facto | test positivity went from ~30% to ~13% | 06:05 |
| de-facto | so pretty much the same as shown in my graph | 06:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: South Australia to lift strict lockdown after pizza-shop muddle → https://is.gd/nVTrgZ | 06:06 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: Donald Tr ump Jr. tests positive for coronavirus (10156 votes) | https://www.whio.com/news/trending/donald-trump-jr-tests-positive-coronavirus/5PBM63KWBZARHH63GTOPCVPPNU/ | https://redd.it/jxztrc | 06:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Indian-American doctor identifies possible COVID-19 treatment → https://is.gd/Jnmudo | 06:18 |
| de-facto | whoa SQLite window functions also can do smoothing :) | 06:22 |
| de-facto | %title https://imgur.com/a/ECeaLYO https://i.imgur.com/YrwF6OO.png source: https://paste.gg/p/anonymous/0b4238c2400f4700a9093246e36594f4 | 06:34 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From imgur.com: COVID-19 Belgium Tests, Cases, Positivity - Album on Imgur | 06:34 |
| de-facto | LjL, ^^ | 06:35 |
| de-facto | similar script as for Italy now for Belgium with moving 7 day average in SQLite :) | 06:36 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Japan: +2426 cases (now 128285) since 13 hours ago — Germany: +22593 cases (now 914118) since 17 hours ago | 07:05 |
| de-facto | %cases Germany | 07:20 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: In Germany, there have been 914118 confirmed cases (1.1% of the population) and 14076 deaths (1.5% of cases) as of 24 minutes ago. 26.5 million tests were performed (3.5% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.5% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 2.4% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Germany for time series data. | 07:20 |
| de-facto | RKI Germany: Infections +22964 (902528 total), Fatalities +254 (13884 total) | 07:21 |
| de-facto | Brainstorm - RKI: Infections +11590, Fatalities +192 | 07:23 |
| de-facto | RKI Germany COVID-19: 3625 in ICU with 2110 on ventilators | 07:25 |
| de-facto | still raising strictly monotonically with declining time derivative though | 07:26 |
| de-facto | again: we need much more containment in Germany urgently. | 07:27 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Pfizer Covid vaccine faces hurdles after FDA filing Friday → https://is.gd/o3F17C | 07:31 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Saint Petersburg, Russia: +2394 cases (now 92794), +63 deaths (now 4826) since 23 hours ago — Kiev, Ukraine: +1391 cases (now 56594), +33 deaths (now 1080) since 23 hours ago — Dnipropetrovsk Oblast, Ukraine: +1174 cases (now 26202), +29 deaths (now 687) since 23 hours ago — Kiev Oblast, Ukraine: +1080 cases (now 28427), +15 deaths (now 615) since 23 hours ago | 07:37 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Georgia: +3824 cases (now 100684), +33 deaths (now 927) since a day ago | 08:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Recent breakthroughs on COVID-19 vaccines offer ray of hope: Antonio Guterres → https://is.gd/PEUsKW | 08:55 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Russia: +24822 cases (now 2.1 million), +467 deaths (now 35778) since 23 hours ago | 09:05 |
| tombradyontap[m] | what is this? | 09:10 |
| jacklsw | this is covid-19 chat and updates | 09:27 |
| tombradyontap[m] | anyone hear about the new study? | 09:29 |
| jacklsw | too many stuffs i don't know which to believe | 09:32 |
| jacklsw | what is it about tombradyontap[m]? | 09:32 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +204464 cases (now 12.3 million), +1958 deaths (now 260312) since 23 hours ago | 09:37 |
| tombradyontap[m] | danish study. masks dont work. dont get vaccine | 09:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Normal Christmas out of question, says Trudeau as Toronto set to enter lockdown → https://is.gd/kLzIK0 | 09:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Italian children take lessons outside school in protest at Covid closures → https://is.gd/ztgueZ | 10:42 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Croatia: +3573 cases (now 100410), +47 deaths (now 1304) since a day ago — Finland: +469 cases (now 21216) since 22 hours ago | 11:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Russia virus toll, deaths, hit new highs: Russia on Saturday registered record numbers for daily infections and deaths from the coronavirus, two days after having passed two million cases. → https://is.gd/F672Ke | 11:30 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Germany: +268 deaths (now 14079) since 23 hours ago | 12:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from ECDC: Download the daily number of new reported cases of COVID-19 by country worldwide: The downloadable data file is updated daily and contains the latest available public data on COVID-19. You may use the data in line with ECDC’s copyright policy. → https://is.gd/zYsz7d | 12:43 |
| Arsanerit | Two men from the Ordnungsamt came into a shop to check/enforce the AHA-L-rules, but subsequently they stood behind the counter chatting to the shopkeepers without either mask or distancing... | 12:50 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Analysis of vitamin D level among asymptomatic and critically ill COVID-19 patients and its correlation with inflammatory markers (82 votes) | https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-77093-z | https://redd.it/jxrubl | 13:15 |
| genera | what are the AHA-L rules? L as in No Mask? | 13:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from Gazzetta Ufficiale italiana: MINISTERO DELLA SALUTE - ORDINANZA 20 novembre 2020: Ulteriori misure urgenti in materia di contenimento e gestionedell'emergenza epidemiologica da COVID-19. (20A06467) → https://is.gd/R9TbXR | 13:19 |
| Arsanerit | AHA-L: Alltagsmaske, Hygiene, Abstand, Lüften = simple mask, hygiene, distance, ventilating | 13:19 |
| genera | ah. lating. | 13:20 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Latvia: +642 cases (now 12744), +7 deaths (now 153) since a day ago | 13:20 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: WHO recommends against the use of remdesivir in COVID-19 patients (81 votes) | https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/who-recommends-against-the-use-of-remdesivir-in-covid-19-patients | https://redd.it/jxnyy5 | 13:40 |
| rpifan | Arsanerit, germana cops are dummies | 13:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from Ars Technica: Gaming & Culture: One hell of a send-off: Pandemic Legacy: Season 0 wraps a stylish board game series → https://is.gd/L5nAYV | 13:43 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Belarus: +1588 cases (now 122435), +8 deaths (now 1089) since a day ago — Palestine: +1486 cases (now 70254), +14 deaths (now 620) since a day ago | 14:20 |
| Arsanerit | rpifan: those weren't cops but Ordnungsamt, I think the real police are more serious | 14:25 |
| joerg | >> <de-facto> still raising strictly monotonically with declining time derivative though ... again: we need much more containment in Germany urgently.<< indeed, a shame and a pity | 14:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): Gene experts claim they identified human genes that can protect against Covid-19 → https://is.gd/EXlxK1 | 14:31 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +206731 cases (now 12.3 million), +1981 deaths (now 260394) since 23 hours ago — Netherlands: +5586 cases (now 479260), +40 deaths (now 8870) since 23 hours ago — Germany: +298 deaths (now 14122) since 23 hours ago | 14:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV: COVID-19 in Canada - 'I don't want to be here': PM Trudeau tells 'sick and tired' Canadians to 'immediately' cut contacts, as the country teeters on edge of crisis → https://is.gd/1Szp02 | 14:43 |
| rpifan | Arsanerit, well the berlin cops are patrolling kufurstendamm in big ol diesel trucks | 14:46 |
| rpifan | and telling ppl to wear masks | 14:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Post - November 21 | Questions, images, videos, comments, unconfirmed reports, theories, suggestions → https://is.gd/x49c61 | 14:55 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Netherlands: +6028 cases (now 479723), +49 deaths (now 8879) since 17 hours ago — Germany: +267 deaths (now 14125) since 23 hours ago | 15:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): nCoV: Global COVID Cases For 21NOV20 → https://is.gd/rOk0vz | 15:19 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +208681 cases (now 12.3 million), +1994 deaths (now 260427) since 23 hours ago | 15:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: Andrew Cuomo To Receive International Emmy For 'Masterful' COVID-19 Briefings: The International Academy of Television Arts and Sciences announced that New York's governor will be recognized Monday for his "use of television to inform and calm people around the world." → https://is.gd/KsNsb5 | 15:31 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Analysis of vitamin D level among asymptomatic and critically ill COVID-19 patients and its correlation with inflammatory markers (82 votes) | https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33214648/ | https://redd.it/jy9lsj | 15:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from Retraction Watch: Weekend reads: Stem cell trouble?; retractions of articles on a newborn’s death; facial recognition papers draw scrutiny: Before we present this week’s Weekend Reads, a question: Do you enjoy our weekly roundup? If so, we could really use your help. Would you consider a tax-deductible donation to support Weekend Reads, [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/gZhWnT | 16:20 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Mississippi, US: +1972 cases (now 142401), +15 deaths (now 3657) since 23 hours ago — US: +195871 cases (now 12.3 million), +1789 deaths (now 260443) since 23 hours ago | 16:21 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +198600 cases (now 12.3 million), +1805 deaths (now 260460) since 23 hours ago | 16:52 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Italy: +34764 cases (now 1.4 million), +692 deaths (now 49261) since 23 hours ago — US: +195247 cases (now 12.3 million), +1781 deaths (now 260479) since 23 hours ago | 17:07 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for United Kingdom: +19875 cases (now 1.5 million), +340 deaths (now 54626) since 22 hours ago | 17:21 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Turkey: +5532 cases (now 440805), +135 deaths (now 12219) since a day ago — US: +190296 cases (now 12.3 million), +1761 deaths (now 260522) since 23 hours ago — Canada: +6129 cases (now 323496), +103 deaths (now 11387) since a day ago | 17:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: U.S. reports nearly 200,000 new coronavirus cases as more than 1,500 people die daily: Public health specialists and epidemiologists are sounding the alarm that Thanksgiving could worsen an already severe outbreaks nationwide. → https://is.gd/9AhSVr | 17:45 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +196170 cases (now 12.3 million), +1867 deaths (now 260628) since 23 hours ago — Germany: +157 deaths (now 14147) since 23 hours ago | 17:53 |
| jacklsw | whoa, how is USA coping with 100k+ daily cases | 17:59 |
| LjL | jacklsw, how is the EU coping with 200k+ daily cases? | 18:00 |
| LjL | https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=EU&cumulative=no&smooth=yes | 18:00 |
| IndoAnon | haha | 18:05 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +209553 cases (now 12.3 million), +1946 deaths (now 260775) since a day ago — Arizona, US: +3638 cases (now 295334), +30 deaths (now 6457) since a day ago | 18:21 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +203389 cases (now 12.3 million), +1944 deaths (now 260824) since 23 hours ago | 18:35 |
| LjL | this is not completely new since it was being rumored i think, but maybe there's actually new data? https://www.businessinsider.com/childhood-vaccine-linked-to-less-severe-covid-19-cigarette-smoke-raises-risk-2020-11?IR=T | 18:43 |
| LjL | of course as in best paper practice, they don't actually cite the study | 18:44 |
| IndoAnon | lel | 18:52 |
| IndoAnon | The state of journos | 18:53 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +206766 cases (now 12.3 million), +1974 deaths (now 260854) since a day ago | 18:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: A childhood vaccine (MMR) available since 1979 has been linked to less severe COVID-19 but smoking cigarettes raises risk → https://is.gd/mMsfFL | 19:00 |
| tinwhiskers | Wth Brainstorm | 19:07 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Greece: +2309 cases (now 90121), +108 deaths (now 1527) since a day ago | 19:07 |
| tinwhiskers | I find several papers discussing that but none that had the co-author name I saw in that business insider article. Whyyyyyy? | 19:09 |
| tinwhiskers | *found | 19:09 |
| hamnox[m] | Links if you find the paper? | 19:09 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, maybe it's so recent google hasn't indexed it! | 19:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from "Cluster 5" on Wikipedia: 109.252.90.104: /* Background */ that is not ISBN, it is DOI: Background: that is not ISBN, it is DOI ← Previous revision Revision as of 18:10, 21 November 2020 Line 7: Line 7: In Denmark there have been five [[Gene cluster|clusters]] of mink variants of SARS-CoV-2; the Danish [[Statens Serum Institut|State Serum [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/74bzDF | 19:12 |
| tinwhiskers | There's this (different paper on same thing): https://mbio.asm.org/content/11/6/e02628-20 | 19:15 |
| tinwhiskers | https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341354165_MMR_Vaccine_Appears_to_Confer_Strong_Protection_from_COVID-19_Few_Deaths_from_SARS-CoV-2_in_Highly_Vaccinated_Populations | 19:17 |
| tinwhiskers | Another one | 19:17 |
| LjL | carownavyrust9[m, what does that have to do with anything? | 19:20 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +191098 cases (now 12.3 million), +1870 deaths (now 261015) since 23 hours ago | 19:21 |
| de-facto | LjL i think ryouma linked to that study yesterday | 19:25 |
| LjL | <tinsoldier> * ryouma → ##covid-19 → https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-11-mmr-vaccine-covid-.html → MMR vaccine could protect against COVID-19 | 19:26 |
| LjL | then probably | 19:26 |
| carownavyrust9[m | FSAND10DAZE? | 19:27 |
| de-facto | ah yeah that one | 19:27 |
| carownavyrust9[m | FLATOXICSNEARLEEDEAD10DAZE? | 19:27 |
| LjL-Matrix | carownavyrust9: sorry, this channel appreciates making sense, so i had to mute you | 19:28 |
| de-facto | Belgium did so well with wrestling it down, now i read they want to reopen schools https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/belgium-all-news/140665/reopening-schools-on-monday-is-not-without-risks-in-belgium-coronavirus-covid-autumn-holidays-steven-van-gucht-sciensano-consultative-committee-study-children-infections/ | 19:31 |
| de-facto | tbh that puzzles me, why would they risk their success on mid-way to bringing incidence down? | 19:31 |
| de-facto | so if incidence raised again to the end of November those would be the first suspects i guess | 19:32 |
| de-facto | my personal opinion on this: its a mistake. | 19:33 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +192242 cases (now 12.3 million), +1906 deaths (now 261051) since 23 hours ago | 19:35 |
| LjL | %papers mmr | 19:36 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, 5 papers: Homologous protein domains in SARS-CoV-2 and measles, mumps and rubella viruses: preliminary evidence that MMR vaccine might provide protection against COVID-19 by Robin Franklin et al, published on 2020-04-10 at http://medrxiv.org/cgi/content/short/2020.04.10.20053207 [... want %more?] | 19:36 |
| LjL | %more | 19:36 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, [...] Institute]] (SSI) has designated these as clusters 1–5 (Danish: {{lang|da|cluster 1-5}}). Among these variants, seven different mutations in the [[spike protein]] of the virus have been confirmed. The specific mutations mentioned were del 69–70 (a deletion of the [[histidine]] and [[valine]] residues at the 69th and 70th position in the protein), [...] → https://paste.ee/p/vMDMz | 19:36 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, [...] Survey of Attitudes on Personal Protection Interventions Against COVID-19 Including MMR Vaccination and Future Anti-COVID Vaccines by Joseph D. Schulman et al, published on 2020-10-23 at https://medrxiv.org/cgi/content/short/2020.10.21.20215251 [...] → https://paste.ee/p/lro2U | 19:36 |
| LjL | i should find a way to solve the %more issue i guess ;( | 19:36 |
| de-facto | %title https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30785-4/fulltext | 19:45 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.thelancet.com: The temporal association of introducing and lifting non-pharmaceutical interventions with the time-varying reproduction number (R) of SARS-CoV-2: a modelling study across 131 countries - The Lancet [...] | 19:45 |
| de-facto | "...the increase was significant only for school reopening (R ratio 1·24, 95% CI 1·00–1·52) and lifting bans on public gatherings of more than ten people (1·25, 1·03–1·51)..." | 19:45 |
| de-facto | hence reopening schools raised R 24% after 28 days in their metastudy | 19:45 |
| joerg | wow | 19:50 |
| joerg | thanks | 19:50 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +195905 cases (now 12.3 million), +1925 deaths (now 261101) since 23 hours ago — Canada: +4480 cases (now 323527) since 22 hours ago | 19:53 |
| joerg | damn! instead of "rubella viruses" I read "nutella viruses" | 19:54 |
| LjL | de-facto, yeah, i saw that study before, bit disappointing they didn't found a strong statistical association with other interventions | 19:54 |
| de-facto | indeed | 19:56 |
| joerg | the swiss cheese model. It~s difficult as they are only effective when developing some "synergy" where one fixes the flaws of the oter NMI | 19:56 |
| LjL | yes, i do not conclude that they don't work | 19:56 |
| LjL | it's just a bit disappointing | 19:57 |
| joerg | :nod: and unfortunate | 19:57 |
| de-facto | yet if one knows about that something is a hole in containment, why open it on purpose despite better knowledge? | 20:01 |
| de-facto | or leave it open (as in Germany still) | 20:02 |
| LjL | maybe they didn't read that study | 20:03 |
| LjL | there are thousands of studies on COVID-19 many of which are... i don't want to say crap, but they add to the confusion | 20:04 |
| de-facto | well the experts say that schools are of course part of contact rates hence also reproduction | 20:05 |
| de-facto | i am pretty sure they know this, despite they setup their priorities | 20:06 |
| de-facto | RKI said it in their briefing | 20:06 |
| de-facto | and also in above article: "“The reopening of the schools is a priority, both for politics and society,” said virologist and interfederal Covid-19 spokesperson Steven Van Gucht. “However, it is not without risks.”" | 20:06 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Sri Lanka: +9 deaths (now 83) since 20 hours ago — Canada: +4865 cases (now 323912), +84 deaths (now 11397) since 22 hours ago | 20:07 |
| de-facto | %title https://imgur.com/a/ZNrSFI0 https://i.imgur.com/RKheP79.png | 20:15 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From imgur.com: COVID-19 Belgium: Tests, Cases, Positivity, Reproduction - Album on Imgur | 20:15 |
| de-facto | it seems their Reproduction still is R<1 (the big black line below 10k), but not as much as it was at begin and mid of November anymore | 20:17 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Germany: +106 deaths (now 14154) since 22 hours ago | 20:21 |
| de-facto | hmm i guess thats normal for those epidemic curves, their decline is slower than their initial raise | 20:22 |
| de-facto | especially with the peak going into past further and further | 20:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid-19: Sweden's herd immunity strategy has failed, hospitals inundated → https://is.gd/9qFrX8 | 20:25 |
| tinwhiskers | hospitals being inundated does not mean their approach failed - that's what you'd expect from their approach. They are trying to build herd immunity, which means more people infected is the *goal*. | 20:30 |
| de-facto | %title https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/covid-19-swedens-herd-immunity-strategy-has-failed-hospitals-inundated/N5DXE42OZJOLRQGGXOT7WJOLSU/ | 20:30 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.nzherald.co.nz: Covid-19: Sweden's herd immunity strategy has failed, hospitals inundated - NZ Herald | 20:30 |
| de-facto | i still think this is insane | 20:31 |
| tinwhiskers | It's a silly goal of course, but that was the goal. | 20:31 |
| de-facto | yeah | 20:31 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +180731 cases (now 12.4 million), +1692 deaths (now 261130) since 23 hours ago | 20:36 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, their claim was that they wouldn't have a spike this winter, though, that by not locking down in spring, they'd build herd immunity by... before now | 20:42 |
| LjL | and their claim proved false | 20:43 |
| LjL | however, they are still not spiking as bad as other countries, like Italy or France, where we did have a lockdown and yet it's even worse now | 20:43 |
| tinwhiskers | ah. | 20:43 |
| LjL | so even though their claim was falsified by events, it's still kind of unclear whether they'll be worse off overall | 20:43 |
| LjL | now their doctors blame the lack of a lockdown earlier... but in Italy, they can't blame that, and yet they're still struggling | 20:44 |
| de-facto | well if the assumption about acquiring immunity that lasts long enough holds their reproduction number Reff = R0 (1 - s) when the part s of their population is not susceptible anymore | 20:46 |
| de-facto | so slower dynamics could make sense | 20:47 |
| de-facto | yet clearly herd immunity did not work as their numbers are on the raise and their hospitals filling at alarming rates | 20:47 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +183263 cases (now 12.4 million), +1728 deaths (now 261282) since 23 hours ago | 20:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: Air Travel Bubble With Singapore Delayed Amid COVID-19 Spike in Hong Kong: The arrangement, originally slated to begin Sunday, would allow some travelers an option for forgoing quarantine. Hong Kong and Singapore agreed to postpone the planned bubble for two weeks. → https://is.gd/84ydux | 20:50 |
| LjL | but at the same time it didn't work much *worse* that countries with a lockdown (for now, at least), which are also having their hospitals filling | 20:50 |
| LjL | but as i've said before, the lockdown was so that we could earn time to *set up things to be prepared later* | 20:50 |
| LjL | instead we set up nothing, zilch, nada, zero | 20:50 |
| LjL | so that's a not a failure of lockdowns but a failure of using lockdowns | 20:50 |
| LjL | of making good use of them | 20:51 |
| de-facto | well even if Sweden is said to not have had a lockdown, its not the lowest on that index of non-pharmaceutical measures you linked a few days ago | 20:51 |
| de-facto | e.g. they do have restrictions | 20:52 |
| de-facto | i.e. i menat | 20:52 |
| LjL | yeah | 20:52 |
| de-facto | https://covidtracker.bsg.ox.ac.uk/stringency-map | 20:55 |
| LjL | de-facto, https://covidtrackerapi.bsg.ox.ac.uk/api/v2/stringency/actions/ITA/2020-11-9 | 21:04 |
| LjL | this is so ending up in the bot | 21:05 |
| Arsanerit | if two countries have similar numbers does it makes sense to restrict travel between them any more than travel within them? | 21:06 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +188801 cases (now 12.4 million), +1743 deaths (now 261297) since a day ago | 21:07 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, my intuition is no unless they also have very different restrictive measures | 21:09 |
| LjL | in which case, allowing travel between them may render the more stringent measures of one countries useless | 21:09 |
| de-facto | Arsanerit, first question would be if they really have similar prevalence of *active* cases (e.g. due to different testing strategies it only could appear they have) | 21:09 |
| Arsanerit | de-facto: true | 21:09 |
| de-facto | then of course any mobility across "iso-prevalence" lines is bad, no matter the national borders, yet it might depend if both nations decide to go with the same strategy at the same point in time of their pandemic curves | 21:10 |
| Arsanerit | A German court has declared a quarantaine required for countries that have high cases, but lower cases than Germany, invalid, because there is no similar requirement for travel within Germany (I think it was like that) | 21:10 |
| Arsanerit | i.e. why should you quarantine when travelling from Paris to Frankfurt but not from Berlin to Frankfurt if Paris and Berlin have similar cases (supposing) | 21:11 |
| de-facto | yeah courts very often seem to lack mental capacity to understand this | 21:11 |
| Arsanerit | (and Frankfurt has similar cases too) | 21:11 |
| de-facto | actually i am quite surprised about some of their conclusions | 21:11 |
| de-facto | fortunately we do have experts on this, so i wish they would listen to them | 21:12 |
| de-facto | also: there is a difference if you travel to a foreign country compared to if you live in your home town assumed prevalence of active cases would be exactly the same | 21:13 |
| Arsanerit | I don't know what the experts are saying on quarantines now that cases are high everywhere | 21:14 |
| de-facto | https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/Risikogebiete_neu.html | 21:14 |
| Arsanerit | As I understand it people simply shouldn't travel at all, borders or no borders. | 21:14 |
| genevino | as i understand it people shouldn't leave their fucking houses if they don't have to. | 21:15 |
| Arsanerit | Yes, but RKI there only declared foreign risk areas, when by their criteria most of Germany is also a risk area, yet there is no quarantine requirement in this case. | 21:15 |
| genevino | Arsanerit: i am in frankfurt btw. | 21:16 |
| genevino | offenbach am main :) | 21:16 |
| Arsanerit | That'd be Stadt Offenbach | 21:16 |
| genevino | and frankfurt people say offebach, not offenbach. | 21:16 |
| Arsanerit | although Landkreis Offenbach does also border the Main in Mühlheim and Hainburg | 21:16 |
| genevino | dribbdebach > offebach | 21:17 |
| genevino | ffm brudi | 21:17 |
| Arsanerit | dribbdebach means something about which side of the Main? | 21:17 |
| Arsanerit | "drüber"? | 21:17 |
| Arsanerit | "drüben"? | 21:17 |
| genevino | i think that's where lokalbahnhof is | 21:17 |
| genevino | sachsenhausen? | 21:17 |
| genevino | hehe | 21:17 |
| de-facto | contact rates REALLY have to be reduced significantly relative to what we have right now, its more or less R~1 oscillating but no real reduction in daily new cases despite less tests and higher positivity rate (due to new testing strategy?) | 21:17 |
| Arsanerit | I remember being confused about Sachsenhausen, as there is apparently also a political prison camp in the DDR with that name. | 21:17 |
| genevino | de-facto: this. | 21:17 |
| de-facto | its simple not nearly enough | 21:18 |
| genevino | Arsanerit: well it's the part of the city with (by far) the most pubs | 21:18 |
| Arsanerit | genevino: Expensive part to live isn't it? | 21:18 |
| genevino | Arsanerit: i love getting drunk there, but right now it's not an option | 21:18 |
| genevino | Arsanerit: yeah it is, a friend of mine lived there and paid even more than we pay for our flat | 21:18 |
| genevino | Arsanerit: i'm at gallus | 21:19 |
| Arsanerit | I find prices in Dietzenbach quite OK (about 10€/m² Kaltmiete), but I lived in southern England before I came here where my rent per m² was double for much worse building quality or location. | 21:19 |
| de-facto | and btw RKI is saying exactly that, so the government has to implement it now: more restrictions | 21:19 |
| genevino | yea i'm that city guy, i need to be able to walk to various pubs | 21:19 |
| Arsanerit | You pay for that luxury. | 21:20 |
| de-facto | in my opinion the maximum strict restrictions are the most cost effective as they bring incidence down the fastest | 21:20 |
| Arsanerit | I haven't seen any pubs at all around here, but there are a couple of shisha-lounges. | 21:20 |
| de-facto | but we always have compromises, every single compromise is in favor of the viral replication though (without any exception) | 21:20 |
| genevino | de-facto: the thing is they don't do that, they just tell the public to consider constraints. there's not even consent between all the parts of germany which all have their own restrictions. | 21:20 |
| genevino | de-facto: and this is going downhill unless we have a country-wide lockdown. | 21:21 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +181625 cases (now 12.4 million), +1631 deaths (now 261357) since 23 hours ago | 21:22 |
| genevino | de-facto: hospitals are around 60-80% of their absolute maximum capacity. | 21:22 |
| de-facto | yes unfortunately they did not decide to whether they are determined about to bring incidence down or rather waste time with their weird compromises and giving Ministers the opportunity to "safe their face" | 21:22 |
| genevino | and 100 means full. that means you put beds in the walking hall. | 21:22 |
| genevino | this is complete b/s. you can't just tell people to keep distance and consider the problem solved. | 21:23 |
| de-facto | yeah but to be fair ICU capacity always is in usage due to economical considerations, e.g. they have to make money with using them, so its not 60-80% COVID cases, but they still are on the raise | 21:23 |
| de-facto | the speed of the raise is declining a little bit (the first time derivative) bit still raising monotonically | 21:24 |
| genevino | of course it's not 60-80% covid cases. i never said that. their beds are at 60-80% use right now. | 21:24 |
| Arsanerit | Maybe they hope they can pull through keeping at current case and ICU levels until they bring numbers of ICU levels down by vaccinating risk groups? | 21:24 |
| de-facto | https://www.intensivregister.de/#/intensivregister Tab "Zeitreihen" | 21:24 |
| de-facto | yes | 21:24 |
| LjL | %title https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/21/europe/germany-icu-beds-covid-intl/index.html | 21:25 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From edition.cnn.com: Germany coronavirus: Nation risks running out of intensive care beds in Covid crisis - CNN | 21:25 |
| genevino | de-facto: ouch | 21:25 |
| de-facto | so specifically the graph about the ICU beds by COVID patients is still on the raise, yet that raise is slowing down, so hopefully indications of a peak manifesting a maximum in the near future? https://www.datawrapper.de/_/WvhXR/ | 21:26 |
| genevino | hopefully | 21:29 |
| Arsanerit | Are any medicine developments helping reduce the duration of ICU bed coverage per case? | 21:30 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: ‘Many of us have PTSD’: 700 US nurses strike over Covid fears | US news (10152 votes) | https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/21/us-nurses-strike-coronavirus-fears-pennsylvania | https://redd.it/jy8sge | 21:30 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Oregon, US: +1493 cases (now 63668), +7 deaths (now 819) since 22 hours ago — US: +186233 cases (now 12.4 million), +1751 deaths (now 261488) since 23 hours ago — Germany: +14406 cases (now 914333), +157 deaths (now 14205) since 23 hours ago | 21:36 |
| tinwhiskers | Arsanerit: yes, we've learned a lot. Death rates are way down compared to the first peaks. What exactly they are, I don't know, but they include methods of care as well as pharmaceuticals. | 21:40 |
| tinwhiskers | For example lying people in their stomach instead of their back was one that was found early on. | 21:41 |
| tinwhiskers | *on... *on | 21:41 |
| Arsanerit | Good. | 21:42 |
| tinwhiskers | Also, not using ventilators too early seems to be helping. | 21:42 |
| de-facto | %title https://imgur.com/a/Q6yKjc3 https://i.imgur.com/tpxJR0i.png source: https://www.intensivregister.de/ | 21:47 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From imgur.com: COVID-19 Germany: Occupied ICU beds - Album on Imgur | 21:47 |
| de-facto | Arsanerit, genevino this is what i mean with decline in first time derivative of occupied icu beds: Change(date) = ICU(date) - ICU(date - 1 day) | 21:48 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +182275 cases (now 12.4 million), +1748 deaths (now 261502) since 23 hours ago — Canada: +4173 cases (now 324375) since 21 hours ago | 21:50 |
| de-facto | so if that change was constant it would mean linear in crease of ICU beds with time, if it declines it would mean ICU beds increase below linear and only once the change becomes *negative* it would mean a decline in ICU beds occupied by COVID-19 patients | 21:51 |
| de-facto | (that can be observed in the first peak) | 21:51 |
| de-facto | i plotted 10-fold of that change in order to make it visible on the same Y-axis, so currently its value of 500 would mean 50 additional ICU beds are filled with COVID-19 patients every day | 21:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Coronavirus: China suspends US$2.1 billion in debt service for poor nations → https://is.gd/mVjf8n | 21:56 |
| de-facto | if that change approaches 0 hopefully in near future it would mean that the same amount of new patients need ICU beds (and 57% of them ventilators) as ICU beds become free due to recoveries (~78%) and fatalities (~22% of ICU or 38% of ventilated) | 21:57 |
| tinwhiskers | dexamethasone is one pharmaceutical that seems to be having a real impact on outcomes but no silver bullet has been found and a range of things are used. interferon-beta has pulled people back from the brink of requiring a ventilator and ivomectin keeps showing up as both a prophylactic and treatment. | 22:02 |
| de-facto | hmm so if fatality rate for ICU is ~22% it would mean current daily number of fatalities ~225 would indicate ICU influx maybe a 7-10 days ago was 225 / 0.22 = 1023 daily patients to ICU, hence 798 daily recoveries from ICU and those 225 fatalities that did not make it | 22:04 |
| de-facto | for every day, yet fatalities are on the raise | 22:05 |
| de-facto | thats crazy imagining that actually | 22:05 |
| tinwhiskers | Ivomectin may well go the way of remdesavir and HCQ yet though. | 22:06 |
| de-facto | i bet they already are doing everything currently known to safe those lifes | 22:08 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +189956 cases (now 12.4 million), +1807 deaths (now 261627) since 23 hours ago — Germany: +15356 cases (now 916664), +159 deaths (now 14233) since 23 hours ago | 22:08 |
| de-facto | so i would not expect there to be a major change in those ratios anytime soon | 22:08 |
| de-facto | yeah damn and USA got around 2k daily fatalities, thats insane | 22:09 |
| tinwhiskers | We might get lucky on some of the many pharmaceuticals being tested but you're probably right. | 22:09 |
| de-facto | sure there will be minor improvements, but the only game changer i see so far are those vaccine results | 22:10 |
| tinwhiskers | I think we'll still see incremental improvements in outcome, except of course where hospitals become overloaded | 22:10 |
| tinwhiskers | Yeah | 22:10 |
| LjL | de-facto, the EU has around 4k daily fatalities | 22:10 |
| LjL | we do have more people, but that's kinda more insane | 22:10 |
| de-facto | yeah | 22:11 |
| LjL | https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=EU;US&byPopulation=yes&cumulative=no&smooth=yes | 22:11 |
| LjL | but the case curves... the EU is improving while the US is getting worse | 22:11 |
| de-facto | yeah its reversed roles now, US on steep exponential raise while EU plateaued, few weeks ago it was swapped | 22:14 |
| de-facto | but fatalities dont seem to have peaked yet in EU | 22:15 |
| tinwhiskers | That graph shows nicely how much worse the deaths were compared to cases in the first peak than subsequent peaks. | 22:19 |
| tinwhiskers | *those graphs | 22:20 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, does it? for the EU, the deaths seem to be showing a curve shape that's very similar to the initial one. sure, when you compare it to cases the proportion and timing is different, but how much of that is just due to the fact we are now actually testing, while in countries like italy initially we didn't even know what was going on? | 22:21 |
| de-facto | hmm well keep in mind that CFR strongly depends on testing strategies and targeting though | 22:21 |
| de-facto | deaths are pretty bias free id guess compared to testing that is | 22:21 |
| LjL | yeah, if i just look at the deaths curve itself, i am like "it's happening again, identically" | 22:21 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +192252 cases (now 12.4 million) since a day ago — Germany: +16400 cases (now 917708), +162 deaths (now 14236) since a day ago — Canada: +4430 cases (now 324632) since 21 hours ago | 22:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: Trump does not participate in G-20 event on global pandemic preparedness: President Trump did not participate in a virtual G-20 event on pandemic preparedness, even as Covid-19 infections surge and break daily records across the U.S. → https://is.gd/OaRHpt | 22:24 |
| ryouma | if pelosi could do the insanity thing that would be good but has no power i guess | 22:25 |
| de-facto | well not only happening again, the fatalities curve for EU looks much worse this time (e.g. where is the maximum?) | 22:26 |
| de-facto | i dont even want to think about the time integral under that second peak there | 22:27 |
| de-facto | hmm weird | 22:30 |
| de-facto | so if first wave peaked in EU around end March or begin April fatalities peaked about a week later around 7th of April then | 22:32 |
| de-facto | so IF cases really peaked in EU around 5th of November where is the associated peak in deaths around 12th of November then? | 22:33 |
| de-facto | something is different this time | 22:33 |
| de-facto | maybe there really was a significant change in testing due to other strategies and lockdowns? | 22:34 |
| de-facto | i only begin to believe in regain of control when daily deaths decline | 22:35 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +189511 cases (now 12.4 million) since 23 hours ago | 22:37 |
| wh0kares | Enjoying your PLANdemic? | 22:47 |
| de-facto | you think it does not affect you? | 22:48 |
| wh0kares | I think we're all fucked. | 22:48 |
| de-facto | yeah so we have to make the best out of it | 22:48 |
| de-facto | i am pretty sure no-one is enjoying this disaster | 22:49 |
| wh0kares | Is this where we organize to overthrow the tyrannical governments? | 22:49 |
| de-facto | how about we try to regain control over the infections and stop that crazy number of daily fatalities? | 22:50 |
| wh0kares | Where do you get your information from? | 22:51 |
| de-facto | hmm everywhere, i never feel good relying on a single source only | 22:51 |
| wh0kares | Numbers of infections = number of tests being done. Tests have a high percentage of INACCURACY. These are the facts. | 22:51 |
| aggi | https://www.rubikon.news/artikel/die-medikamenten-tragodie | 22:52 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +187347 cases (now 12.4 million) since 23 hours ago | 22:52 |
| wh0kares | Cases is not deaths. Cases = tests. | 22:52 |
| wh0kares | And the fatalities - whoever dies WITH covid is being numbered as if they died OF covid. | 22:52 |
| de-facto | wh0kares, yes of course the number of discovered infections depend on the number of tests being done and on the targeting (e.g. whom to test) strategies | 22:52 |
| aggi | mortality anomalies were explained by overdosed application of toxic medication, the trends weren't recognized as typical for a pandemic | 22:53 |
| wh0kares | Well when you know that the PCR test has a 90% rate of false-positives, what are we even counting for. | 22:53 |
| wh0kares | More people still die from the common cold. I don't see anyone panicking or wearing masks because of the flu. The lockdowns are a big joke. | 22:54 |
| de-facto | well of over all causes mortality increases and hospitals fill up, refrigerator trucks line up in front of the hospitals then clearly something is not normal, since it was not like that before | 22:54 |
| wh0kares | Your government is out to hurt you. But yeah, believe what you want. | 22:54 |
| AimHere | People don't much die from the common cold | 22:54 |
| AimHere | A few people die from the flu | 22:54 |
| AimHere | But Covid deaths are outstripping flu deaths | 22:54 |
| wh0kares | You guys are misinformed. More people die from the flu than this virus. I just told you, which is common knowledge, that they are writing up ALL deaths as covid deaths. | 22:55 |
| de-facto | wh0kares, those are false claims, PCR tests are very accurate and this has been discussed many times already | 22:55 |
| AimHere | wh0kares, as for the FLU, the reason people don't panic much from the flu is because it's a) less infectious, and b) there's a vaccine | 22:55 |
| wh0kares | de-facto: false claims? The inventor of the PCR test himself has stated that the test is not suitable for this. | 22:56 |
| de-facto | wh0kares, please think about the impact of your words, we all are in one boat with this and we have to make the best out of it | 22:56 |
| wh0kares | They replicate the sample 40 times over to be able to find a virus strain. Any amplification over 20 is basically flawed. | 22:56 |
| wh0kares | This is pseudoscience guys c'mon. | 22:56 |
| de-facto | dont believe propaganda without thinking critically | 22:56 |
| de-facto | the labs are tested for their predictive values | 22:57 |
| wh0kares | TV/media propaganda. | 22:57 |
| de-facto | how can Australia have 2000 tests and more to find a single positive case? | 22:57 |
| de-facto | that simply does not fit with your claims | 22:57 |
| wh0kares | You rely on TV information. | 22:57 |
| de-facto | i dont even have a tv | 22:57 |
| wh0kares | You have faith in your government and could never imagine your politicians are crooked and plain lying to the public. From your belief that everything is as-is presented, you can justify and reason to re-inforce that belief. | 22:58 |
| wh0kares | I've seen this many times. I could start posting links (proofs) and your cognitive dissonance would just make you ignore it. | 22:59 |
| ubLIX | please don't | 22:59 |
| ubLIX | you are in the wrong channel | 22:59 |
| wh0kares | Yeah obviously. | 22:59 |
| ubLIX | will you jump or will you be shoved? | 22:59 |
| wh0kares | Censorship at it's finest ;) | 22:59 |
| de-facto | wh0kares, please try to be constructive and not destructive with your contributions | 22:59 |
| wh0kares | Constructive is trying to show you the truth. | 23:00 |
| wh0kares | But your escapism is showing OP. | 23:00 |
| wh0kares | Rather ban than engage in a discussion. | 23:00 |
| wh0kares | "Let's just stick with what we believe" eh? :) | 23:00 |
| AimHere | People who don't argue in good faith shouldn't be engaged with, and should be banned | 23:01 |
| ubLIX | *shrug* you're in the wrong channel. i don't know what to tell you | 23:01 |
| de-facto | so whats your constructive contribution to have a more clear view of "the truth"? | 23:01 |
| aggi | https://www.rubikon.news/artikel/die-medikamenten-tragodie | 23:01 |
| aggi | mortality anomalies were explained by overdosed application of toxic medication, the trends weren't recognized as typical for a pandemic | 23:01 |
| wh0kares | Real science should be questioned. It should hold up in scrutiny. | 23:01 |
| de-facto | it is questioned by scientists themselves, its called peer review process | 23:01 |
| wh0kares | Which scientist? | 23:02 |
| wh0kares | Because there is an alliance of thousands of scientists now world-wide who are opposing the mainstream narrative of this situation. | 23:02 |
| de-facto | the one competent in the same field a paper is intended to be published | 23:02 |
| wh0kares | I'm sure you haven't heard that in the media though. | 23:02 |
| AimHere | Peer review is an anonymous process where the journal gets a handful of scientists to adjudicate every paper | 23:02 |
| de-facto | oh i have heard that and read all about it | 23:03 |
| ubLIX | ok. as entertaining as this might be, we can find this vein of dialogue elsewhere any time we choose. i don't believe it's needed here | 23:03 |
| aggi | "In view of the fact that very different levels of excess mortality are reported in different European countries, the assumption arises that different aggressive therapies could be responsible for this." | 23:05 |
| de-facto | we need more cohesion and solidarity and work together on solving this disaster, that also includes such people as they are part of society aswell | 23:05 |
| aggi | "Excess mortality was limited to a short period of time: this alone takes the virus hypothesis ad absurdum", too lazy to translate so google did it quickly | 23:06 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +189394 cases (now 12.4 million), +1748 deaths (now 261634) since a day ago — Canada: +4570 cases (now 324772) since 22 hours ago | 23:06 |
| de-facto | so we had over all causes excess mortality peaks in Europe https://www.euromomo.eu/ | 23:06 |
| de-facto | and we see a new peak forming https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/ | 23:07 |
| de-facto | thats way before the usual winter times peaks | 23:08 |
| aggi | "excessive use of medication" | 23:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: U.S. Passes 12 Million Confirmed Coronavirus Cases: On Friday alone, there were 195,000 new confirmed cases of the virus and 1,878 deaths. The U.S. has been adding 1 million cases every six days. → https://is.gd/U6pLmJ | 23:09 |
| aggi | "pharmaceutical experiments" | 23:09 |
| aggi | "Hydroxychloroquine doses at potentially fatal levels" | 23:09 |
| de-facto | well think about what happens when hospital capacity is overwhelmed and people in urgent need for medical care cant be offered to be treated anymore | 23:10 |
| de-facto | its called triage: doctors have to decide to whom they give the limited resources such as ICU beds (maybe on basis of "potential years of life lost") | 23:12 |
| de-facto | then fatalities and excess mortality really begins to raise | 23:12 |
| de-facto | hence containing the cause of all of that, the infections themselves, is the only strategy that really can prevent that dynamics run out of control again | 23:12 |
| aggi | now, i have a question: In march 2020 a medical recommendation was to vaccinate for pneumococces as a precaution against cv19, and Frau Dr. Merkel received a vaccination shot for pneumococces! | 23:13 |
| de-facto | surely there is no glory in prevention because later some people will just say "look it was not that bad after all" without understanding that it actively was prevented to become worse | 23:13 |
| aggi | why then wasn't any action taken since march 2020 when medical experts recommended vaccination for pneumococces??? | 23:13 |
| tinwhiskers | Are you suggesting the 1200 deaths per day in the US and 4000 per day in Europe are due to excessive use of medicine right now and that they are pharmaceutical experiments? | 23:13 |
| aggi | i only cited a report from a medical journalist. | 23:14 |
| tinwhiskers | That's handy. Lol | 23:14 |
| de-facto | aggi, yeah the viral pneumonia and also invading patients respiratory tracts increase the risk of getting infected with pneumococcus bacteria | 23:15 |
| aggi | anyhow, if pneumococce vaccination was recommended, why hadn't politics acted upon this recommendation for almost an entire year? | 23:15 |
| de-facto | and you are correct in assuming that many chances to prepare for the impact of the second wave indeed have been wasted | 23:15 |
| de-facto | its one of many things that should have been done better | 23:16 |
| tinwhiskers | Yeah. A lot of missed opportunities. | 23:16 |
| de-facto | obviously management has been far from optimal according to the mess we find ourselves into right now | 23:17 |
| de-facto | yet still we have to make the best out of it | 23:17 |
| tinwhiskers | A lot of doctors recommended a lot of different things but official advice has tended to be overly precautionary and they went make a recommendation without evidence, which is kind of fair. | 23:18 |
| aggi | and, why was a specific vaccination agitated for (Pfizer) which wasn't at least sufficiently confirmed to be effective up until recently (if that could be trusted anymore)? | 23:18 |
| tinwhiskers | So some doctors may have speculated that that would help but it may have caused other problems and needed to be researched before becoming official advice. | 23:18 |
| de-facto | yeah some things just were unknown and had to be tried out (e.g. medications etc), other things though were kind of obvious and still were not implemented | 23:19 |
| tinwhiskers | Yeah | 23:19 |
| aggi | why was the russian vaccine ignored allthough the russians had offered one month ago already, long before Pfizer? | 23:19 |
| tinwhiskers | It's still in phase three trials like many others | 23:20 |
| tinwhiskers | That's just their PR | 23:20 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Massachusetts, US: +3206 cases (now 204155), +19 deaths (now 10488) since a day ago — US: +183326 cases (now 12.4 million), +1707 deaths (now 261653) since 23 hours ago — Germany: +4153 cases (now 918271), +163 deaths (now 14239) since 16 hours ago | 23:20 |
| de-facto | its not like once it becomes available the problem would be solved or such, its a HUGE effort to get everyone vaccinated, think about the scale of such an operation in production, logistics, organization, synchronization etc | 23:21 |
| de-facto | yeah the Sputnik V vaccine might be fine but obviously also got quite some PR to its schedule, well even its name already :P | 23:21 |
| tinwhiskers | We expect about 150 million doses to be available by the end of the year for those that have announced production schedules (not including the Russian one). | 23:21 |
| tinwhiskers | They have been in full production for months on the hope they would pan out. | 23:22 |
| de-facto | %title https://covidvax.org/covid19-vaccines-distribution <-- here is the list | 23:22 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From covidvax.org: COVID-19 vaccine: When will it be available? | 23:22 |
| aggi | pneumococce vaccination was available for decades, correct me if i was wrong, but the amount of strains to vaccinate for exploded (antibiotic resistence? and who knows what) | 23:22 |
| de-facto | yeah it should have been done indeed, especially for the elderly | 23:23 |
| tinwhiskers | Yes and many other measures were not carried out as well | 23:23 |
| rpifan | i had to get two kinds of pneumovax | 23:23 |
| rpifan | cuase of the hiv you know | 23:23 |
| rpifan | if you get pneumonia wiht hiv it can be deadly | 23:23 |
| rpifan | i did end up getting penumonia nce | 23:23 |
| rpifan | once | 23:23 |
| de-facto | fortunately it looks like the two mRNA vaccines (BioNTech/Pfizer and Moderna) as well as the Adenoviral vector from Oxford/AstraZeneca seem to work well even in elderly | 23:29 |
| bin_bash | i need to get a flu vaccine but i never go anywhere or come into contact with anyone | 23:29 |
| de-facto | but this winter we have to come through with non-pharmaceutical measures still | 23:29 |
| bin_bash | i think it'll be interesting to see how flu season goes with everyone wearing masks | 23:29 |
| bin_bash | in public* | 23:30 |
| de-facto | well if distancing works there should be no reason to select on respiratory diseases since all of them share the same transmission paths | 23:30 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: In the lab, St. Jude scientists identify possible COVID-19 treatment (80 votes) | https://www.stjude.org/media-resources/news-releases/2020-medicine-science-news/in-the-lab-st-jude-scientists-identify-possible-covid-19-treatment.html | https://redd.it/jyigp1 | 23:31 |
| de-facto | though that also means if you get a "common cold" and luckily test negative for COVID that it could as well have been SARS-CoV-2 because obviously shielding was not sufficient then | 23:31 |
| de-facto | %title https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)31542-7 | 23:34 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.cell.com: Synergism of TNF-α and IFN-γ triggers inflammatory cell death, tissue damage, and mortality in SARS-CoV-2 infection and cytokine shock syndromes: Cell | 23:34 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +183707 cases (now 12.4 million), +1708 deaths (now 261654) since a day ago | 23:38 |
| LjL | <wh0kares> Well when you know that the PCR test has a 90% rate of false-positives, what are we even counting for. ← lol that was a good one, why aren't our daily tests always at least 90% positive then? | 23:44 |
| aggi | false negatives | 23:45 |
| LjL | either a very big idiot, or a not very subtle liar | 23:45 |
| LjL | aggi, no, he meant false positives | 23:46 |
| LjL | his reasoning only made sense if he meant that | 23:46 |
| LjL | well, i mean, it didn't make sense anyway. | 23:46 |
| LjL | <aggi> "Excess mortality was limited to a short period of time: this alone takes the virus hypothesis ad absurdum", too lazy to translate so google did it quickly ← why would it nullify the virus hypothesis!? excess mortality went back into line when COVID cases also went back into line after widespread lockdowns | 23:48 |
| aggi | 1) i am only citing reports i would identify as credible sources | 23:49 |
| aggi | 2) the morality anomalies couldn't be explained with a pandemic for various reasons as the report mentioned | 23:49 |
| LjL | <aggi> anyhow, if pneumococce vaccination was recommended, why hadn't politics acted upon this recommendation for almost an entire year? ← because of the same reason we currently don't have nearly enough flu shots. if i may say it in french, it's because the politicians are fucking idiots. | 23:49 |
| aggi | *mortality | 23:50 |
| LjL | <aggi> and, why was a specific vaccination agitated for (Pfizer) which wasn't at least sufficiently confirmed to be effective up until recently (if that could be trusted anymore)? ← before "recently", i was hearing much more about the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine. but in any case you should make up your mind, since... | 23:50 |
| LjL | <aggi> why was the russian vaccine ignored allthough the russians had offered one month ago already, long before Pfizer? ← ... should we wait to talk about vaccines after they are confirmed safe, or should we rush it to be the first with a vaccine like the Russians tried to do? these are not compatible goals | 23:51 |
| aggi | RKI Germany argued "we'll have dozens of vaccines available none of which could be reliably confirmed to be effective" (loose translation) | 23:51 |
| LjL | <aggi> 2) the morality anomalies couldn't be explained with a pandemic for various reasons as the report mentioned ← you just repeated the same claim but i dispute that claim based on the fact that the reason stated for it is bogus | 23:51 |
| rpifan | aggi, i agree its kinda pointless what we did | 23:52 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +172510 cases (now 12.4 million), +1540 deaths (now 261678) since 23 hours ago — Canada: +4714 cases (now 324916) since 23 hours ago — Switzerland: +39 deaths (now 4031) since a day ago | 23:52 |
| de-facto | what? i want to see the original quote or RKI stating that vaccines can not reliably confirmed to be effective, i doubt they ever would say such a thing | 23:52 |
| LjL | de-facto, out of context, it could be true | 23:52 |
| LjL | when will we have such a situation? | 23:52 |
| rpifan | by january | 23:52 |
| rpifan | im sure | 23:52 |
| rpifan | with all of them being approved so quickly | 23:53 |
| LjL | it's very possible we'll have a "large"(ish) number of Pfizer, Moderna and Oxford vaccines before dozens of other vaccines are confirmed effective | 23:53 |
| rpifan | and with such a small sample size | 23:53 |
| LjL | but i'm not sure why that is intrinsically a problem | 23:53 |
| rpifan | you wanna vaccinate 8 billion ppl | 23:53 |
| rpifan | with a vaccine tested on a few thousand ppl | 23:53 |
| rpifan | that makes no sense | 23:53 |
| LjL | uh, yes it does | 23:53 |
| rpifan | even if the sample size were 2 million ppl its still small | 23:53 |
| aggi | 2)a) the anomalies are short-term spikes untypical for a pandemic and 2)b) the localization discrepancies cannot be explained with a pandemic, why cv19 would be deadly in one country (spain) but it wouldn't be elsewhere at the same time (portugal) 2)c) toxic overdose of medication | 23:53 |
| LjL | a trial of 2 million people? are you out of your mind | 23:54 |
| tinwhiskers | I'm not even sure what the main point is that aggi is trying to make. Yes there have been a number of problems and we should have done a number of things we didn't. But what's that stuff about excess deaths got to do with that. What is your main point aggi? | 23:54 |
| de-facto | ah well if you refer to if vaccinations could only prevent severe disease progressions or if they also could prevent the status of being infectious to the environment for a short time yeah thats unknown still (but there are good hopes that vaccinations also might work in that regard) | 23:54 |
| rpifan | a trial needs to be a represenative sample | 23:54 |
| LjL | rpifan, "representative" isn't the same as "very large" | 23:55 |
| rpifan | well respesenative for 7 billion ppl | 23:55 |
| rpifan | should mean more then a handful of ppl in a few countries | 23:55 |
| rpifan | the majortiy of good vaccines and medications | 23:55 |
| de-facto | but it can reliably be confirmed with tests in trials, if they just would go ahead and accompany their trials with testing on regular basis (every few days) | 23:55 |
| rpifan | have been tested and retested | 23:55 |
| rpifan | all over the planet | 23:55 |
| rpifan | we relay to much on this vaccine idea | 23:56 |
| rpifan | quarantine and social distancing | 23:56 |
| LjL | in America, roughly 1 out of 1000 people (a bit less i think, but i want round numbers) have already DIED from (forget about the bullshit of "with") COVID. so, even if you take 2000 people and you miss a LETHAL side effect because it only happens in 1 over 4000, you're still killing fewer people than the virus | 23:57 |
| rpifan | have so many side benefits i just saw a DW thing saying that the new of flu cases in Germany has dropped down dramatically as well | 23:57 |
| rpifan | but thats cause america has shit policies | 23:57 |
| rpifan | that solution here is social distancing | 23:57 |
| LjL | no, it's not because America has shit policies | 23:57 |
| LjL | the "solution" of social distancing comes at huge costs and it's not even working very well in Europe | 23:57 |
| LjL | it's the best we have until a vaccine is around | 23:57 |
| LjL | but it's still crap | 23:57 |
| rpifan | im not anti vaccine person | 23:58 |
| rpifan | at all | 23:58 |
| rpifan | but i think reliable on a magical medication to solve all problem is dumb at best | 23:58 |
| rpifan | and lethal at worst | 23:58 |
| rpifan | the benefits outweigh the costs | 23:58 |
| LjL | no we're not relying on it to solve all problems, we're relying on it to solve COVID-19 | 23:58 |
| rpifan | just the ammount of ppl who wont die from the flu or car accident its a huge benefit | 23:59 |
| LjL | yes they do :P | 23:59 |
| LjL | so should we social distance forever? | 23:59 |
| LjL | maybe we should all kill ourselves | 23:59 |
| LjL | after that, there will be no more deaths | 23:59 |
| LjL | we'll have a WONDERFUL track record of 0 human deaths per year | 23:59 |
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