libera/##covid-19/ Wednesday, 2020-12-09

DocScrutinizer05	except adverse effects: omeprazol taken long term may cause osteoperosis. Cetirizine allegedly makes you feel tired though I never seen this when taking it	00:08
de-facto	i though it might be like dampening down immune responses possibly, hence unwanted effect for preventing early viral replication but wanted effect to prevent later severe progressions with immune overreactions being the cause of the problem	00:08
de-facto	similar to DEX et atl	00:08
de-facto	but i may be wrong	00:08
tinwhiskers	Histomines are apparently involved in the cytokine storm	00:08
tinwhiskers	Yeah, 10mg cetrizine per day before before bed	00:09
tinwhiskers	I'm not at risk in general so I'll only be taking them for a few weeks so the long term effects are not an issue for me.	00:09
de-facto	yes but what would be the effect on "native" early immune responses (non specific, e.g. not antibodies etc) when exposed to SARS-CoV-2?	00:09
DocScrutinizer05	de-facto: nah, cetirizine only modulates the histamine reaction iirc	00:10
tinwhiskers	But yeah, you wouldn't know when to take them in a place where you are always at risk.	00:10
DocScrutinizer05	it's no immune suppressant	00:10
de-facto	could very well be, idk actually	00:10
tinwhiskers	Cetirizine if you think you may be coming down with symptoms may be a good idea though. In the trials it's not given until diagnosis.	00:10
LjL	cetirizine used to make me sleepy enough that i had to take it well before going to bed, or i'd sleep through the following morning	00:11
de-facto	yeah hence may help only in later progressions	00:11
LjL	it's actually a useful effect sometimes... i know that some doctors give antihistamines for sleeping	00:11
LjL	although my doctor was like "NO WAY"	00:11
de-facto	btw there is another form of Ceterizine that only selects the "left chirality" molecules that got less effect of sedation while same effect on immune system or such	00:12
de-facto	normal Ceterizine contains both left handed and right handed molecules	00:12
de-facto	(mirrored versions of each others geometrically)	00:12
DocScrutinizer05	I wonder how omeprazol (proton pump blocker) is any related to covid	00:13
de-facto	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levocetirizine	00:14
de-facto	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereochemistry	00:16
DocScrutinizer05	oh, I forgot: omeprazol adverse effects also B12 deficit, long term administration	00:19
LjL	PPIs are a little... i dunno	00:19
de-facto	Trump took Dexamethasone, Remdesivir, REGN-COV2 ab cocktail, Zinc, Vitamin D, Famotidine, Melatonin, ASpirin	00:20
tinwhiskers	DocScrutinizer05: yeah, will I'm fuzzy on Omeprazole now but there were some reports a couple of months back. They may have come to nothing but I still happen to have a month's supply on hand from a bout of reflux I had so I figure a few weeks of that around my quarantine period will do no harm.	00:20
tinwhiskers	I'm going to look into the latest results when I get home today	00:20
LjL	Trump really had an interesting all-in therapy	00:20
tinwhiskers	But considering the low impact of short term use and the potential benefits, and that I already have them it seems a no brainier for me	00:21
de-facto	%title https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7673069/	00:21
Brainstorm	de-facto: From www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov: Histamine receptors and COVID-19	00:21
LjL	when i was taking pantoprazole i started getting headache. i even saw a doctor because i don't normally suffer from headaches, and i had not realized there was a connection. i did when i stopped taking pantoprazole and the headaches also stopped	00:22
LjL	i know, it's just me, and it's just some headaches, but i don't feel great about PPIs	00:22
de-facto	%title https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7455799/	00:22
Brainstorm	de-facto: From www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov: Dual-histamine receptor blockade with cetirizine - famotidine reduces pulmonary symptoms in COVID-19 patients	00:22
DocScrutinizer05	tinwhiskers: are you scheduled for a high-risk activity so you got to go to quarantine in January?	00:23
LjL	i'd call "leaving one of the only countries in the world without any cases" a pretty high-risk activity, but you'd have to take that up with his wife :P	00:23
Brainstorm	New from CNBC Health: U.S. hasn't seen full Covid brunt from Thanksgiving as nation enters Christmas season, Fauci warns: White House coronavirus advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci said that the U.S. could see Covid's "full brunt" coming off the Thanksgiving holiday some point next week. → https://is.gd/RaDv5j	00:25
de-facto	again i think those help with severe conditions, not with preventing infections	00:26
tinwhiskers	Going home to NZ and have a mandatory two week quarantine. There's about 5 or so new cases in that facility each day so it's very high risk compared to what I'm used to here or what I will face after leaving quarantine in NZ.	00:26
de-facto	*those may help	00:26
de-facto	tinwhiskers, wear an FFP3 mask there and practice stellar hand hygiene	00:26
tinwhiskers	de-facto: right. But they can slow progression too	00:27
DocScrutinizer05	LjL: actually I also pondered a few times to ask my doctor to go back from *prazol PPI to H1-receptor blocker Ranitidin	00:27
LjL	ranitidin... something big happened with it	00:27
tinwhiskers	They don't act as a prophylactic	00:27
tinwhiskers	I can't get any n95 masks here or at the border. I tried to get someone to send me some but it fell through.	00:28
LjL	i can't remember what it was, i think there was a big ruckus about ranitidin having some important adverse effects but then it was sort of settled	00:28
LjL	i wish i remembered things better :/	00:28
tinwhiskers	I'll just have a fabric mask but will be staying in my room. We'll likely be the only people on the plane though.	00:28
de-facto	tinwhiskers, i think it would be a very good idea to organize for such masks prior to traveling	00:28
de-facto	on plane etc	00:29
tinwhiskers	Not an option	00:29
de-facto	meh	00:29
de-facto	well if plane is quite empty then try to stay 2-3 rows away from other people	00:29
tinwhiskers	I asked someone in NZ to get me some but they were unable to and now it's too late to get a package sent here. It takes months for a package to arrive.	00:30
de-facto	afaik that is the spread radius they were talking about for influenza when discussing air circulation in planes	00:30
LjL	tinwhiskers, see that's the sort of situation where i'm of two minds about countries with the guts to actually quarantine people in special structures instead of just hoping they self-isolate properly. in italy, i'm completely sure many people who are meant to self-isolate aren't doing it. there was some headline today that someone who broke the quarantine "for 8 seconds" in Taiwan was fined a huge amount. but on the other hand, being unable to even get	00:30
LjL	a proper mask before you're taken to a facility where you have to stay... shudder i'd hate to be in that condition in italy, in any italian facility. i hope NZ has the ability to enact tougher measures while also being humane about it.	00:30
tinwhiskers	There will probably be nobody else on the plane, but transport from the airport, customs, and at the facility will be the risky places	00:30
LjL	meanwhile <Brainstorm> New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: France confirms outbreak of highly pathogenic H5N8 bird flu on duck farm → https://is.gd/Exs8lK	00:31
LjL	i keep seeing those. it's pretty annoying this thing with birds, that they fly around	00:31
de-facto	tinwhiskers, maybe you can buy some masks at the airport?	00:31
de-facto	woudl make sense to sell them there	00:31
LjL	but they probably won't let him roam around the duty-free section or anything...	00:32
de-facto	not sure if they do though	00:32
de-facto	yeah hmm	00:32
tinwhiskers	de-facto: yeah, I'm going to see about that yet	00:32
de-facto	lol tinwhiskers is the ONLY person that really could be sure not to have it and then they wont let him in duty free there	00:33
de-facto	yeah weird but how could they know	00:33
LjL	yeah it's a bit ridiculous they'd quarantine people coming from a COVID-free country	00:33
LjL	de-facto, they'd know the same way we do...	00:33
tinwhiskers	Yeah, that sucks	00:33
de-facto	indeed	00:34
tinwhiskers	But I'm not really complaining too much. It's a pretty good system in general.	00:34
LjL	but i guess it's by doing more rather than less that NZ has managed to keep their curve so low.	00:34
de-facto	when did you schedule your return?	00:35
tinwhiskers	I really would like to have had some masks but that's life. Oh I also have some surgical masks.	00:35
de-facto	actually surgical mask filtering is not too bad, their fit is though	00:35
tinwhiskers	We had to book the facility about a month ago for mid-Jan	00:35
de-facto	so having surgical with very tight fit may be not too bad actually	00:36
LjL	surgical & scotch tape?	00:36
de-facto	lol	00:36
tinwhiskers	Heh	00:36
de-facto	"Tape Face" :P	00:36
tinwhiskers	The fabric mask is a good fit. With a surgical mask as well it'll be ok	00:36
Brainstorm	New from Medical Xpress: Steep rise in depressive symptoms among 7-12 year olds during UK-wide lockdown: The prevalence of depressive symptoms rose substantially among young children during the UK-wide lockdown in response to the first wave of the coronavirus pandemic, finds research focusing on one region of England and published online in Archives of [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/brh9RJ	00:37
LjL	eeeeh "During lockdown,168 of their parents—equivalent to 29% of the overall sample—completed online validated mental health assessments to rate their children's emotional wellbeing, anxiety and depression."	00:38
LjL	"These ratings were then compared with baseline data collected around 18 months earlier, which included a mixture of parent-, teacher-, and child-rated mental health measures."	00:38
LjL	seems like comparing apples to ataris	00:39
ryouma	1) according to the earliest study i heard of i thought cetirizine had to be iv-injected or so for that? 2) i am taking 2-3 cetirizine and 1-2 fexofenadine per day and i would hate to have some er doctor give me just one cetirizine thinking htat it would do anything for me; your mast cells likely develop tolerance, and even if not, your histamine does. --- 16:04 <tinwhiskers> There's a bunch of cases in quaranti	00:39
ryouma	ne and yes by far the most dangerous place I will be. Cetirizine seems to be reducing fatal cytokine storm by 50%	00:39
de-facto	%title https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7357397/	00:40
Brainstorm	de-facto: From www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov: Filtration Performance of FDA-Cleared Surgical Masks	00:40
tinwhiskers	ryouma: orally in some studies, injected in others.	00:40
ryouma	when wouold you take cetirizine? as soon as second phase of disease hits?	00:40
tinwhiskers	10mg either way.	00:40
ryouma	ugh	00:41
ryouma	or is it prophylactic	00:41
tinwhiskers	ryouma: well given the short duration of my danger period I'll just take it for that three weeks	00:41
tinwhiskers	It is not prophylactic but can slow progression so may be beneficial before you notice symptoms.	00:42
de-facto	%title https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/comparison-mask-standards-rating-effectiveness/	00:43
Brainstorm	de-facto: From smartairfilters.com: Comparison of Mask Standards, Ratings, and Filtration Effectiveness – Smart Air	00:43
de-facto	hmm so i guess the answer is: it depends on the surgical mask, hmm	00:43
de-facto	yet if it filters (hence give you protection) the (air)tight fit would be important	00:44
LjL	with the emergency laws here, tons of very different things count as "surgical masks"...	00:44
de-facto	idk maybe it somehow can be combined with the cotton mask for a tighter fit or such	00:45
de-facto	but still i would think a proper 3 layer surgical mask got much better filtering than only a community cotton mask	00:46
ryouma	surgical mask on bottom sounds better wrt moisture	00:47
de-facto	it should be made from hydrophobic PP fiber fabric or such	00:48
de-facto	at least some of its layers	00:48
Brainstorm	New from CNBC Health: (news): U.S. declined to buy more Pfizer Covid vaccine doses, even after interim data, board member Gottlieb says → https://is.gd/DvWYsN	00:49
Brainstorm	Updates for Fr. Polynesia: +225 cases (now 15332), +7 deaths (now 86) since 4 days ago	00:50
de-facto	im not going to take Ceterizine, id rather have my allergy	00:51
LjL	yay more Pfizer doese for Europe?!	00:51
de-facto	lol thought exactly the same	00:52
ryouma	why not take cetirizine?	00:52
de-facto	idk it makes me tired and allergy is not so severe, so id rather only take it when i really need it	00:53
de-facto	it works very well for mitigating allergies though	00:55
tinwhiskers	de-facto: fair enough. I really don't mind if I get drowsy during my two week quarantine.	00:56
LjL	tinwhiskers, maybe take a whole box in one day so you just sleep throughout	00:57
LjL	Disclaimer: nothing I say should be construed as medical advice.	00:57
tinwhiskers	I used to take a drowsy antihistamine at night and a non-drowsy in the morning when I was getting bad allergies.	00:57
tinwhiskers	Lol	00:57
LjL	because the non-drowsy ones tend to be a little less effective too?	00:57
de-facto	i have it in the drawer in case i need it, but i am not a fan of taking meds in advance, if i feel sick or allergy i might consider taking it, but i am not so convinced it helps anything with preventing infection and even if my doctor told me that it would not dampen immunity i dont take her word for it, i want to see data	00:57
LjL	there are so many uncertainties about COVID, it's natural that we'd make different choices on what to do or not do	00:58
de-facto	yeah and that is fine (well even good for discovering new correlations)	00:58
de-facto	i do everything to have a more aggressive immune system, maybe thats exactly the wrong thing to to, but its my choice	01:01
LjL	hey you don't go to bed that much earlier than i do	01:02
de-facto	maybe thats even why i started to have allergies (i never had those before)	01:02
de-facto	ok thats true indeed	01:02
de-facto	i was thinking more about nutrition etc	01:02
LjL	earlier i was banned from r/covid19 without as much as a warning. i must have been unacceptably biased and upset.	01:14
Brainstorm	Updates for Idaho, US: +2012 cases (now 113905), +19 deaths (now 1074) since a day ago	01:22
LjL	ryouma, how is the dentistry situation?	01:23
DocScrutinizer05	de-facto: there's no plausible vector how cetirizin would have impact on your immune response	01:33
DocScrutinizer05	it's probably hard to find data on that since it occurred to nobody to even study this	01:34
de-facto	why is that? if allergy is an immune reaction to antigens like house dust and ceterizine can mitigate that it obviously correlates	01:34
LjL	yeah, histamine is an immune mediator afaik...	01:34
ryouma	most recently i went to a new dentist, with seemingly relatively good covid precautions, and stressed many many times that we'd like any work done, even if only a little, at the same time, due to (1) impact on me of getting htere and (2) covid risk. spent a lot of time signing forms on a tablet (and adding "u.d." for "under duress" because i was compoletely out of it having been transported), and then extensive x-r	01:34
ryouma	ays and photographs. then, dentist said mouth was so bad there was nothing he could do (previous dentists had said i could go a year without dental work and then not said anything) and referred me to his partner office oral surgeon to get 4 teeth extracted. referral slip said something like severe bone loss. severe periodontitis. said would be same precautions. but oral surgeon was called. receptionist made it	01:34
ryouma	seem like a bad choice for covid. even at that time curve was rising. now it is much worse due to thanksgiving. idk but i am guessing that my best bet, although bad for my overall health and jaw risks etc., is to try to not get infection get bad, but if it does, have the REFERRING dentist extract just that one tooth. unless we get answers from the oral surgeon that contrary to receptionist says they have same p	01:34
ryouma	recautions (gf has not called, and i am not doing well due to dust in house and recovering from prev visit and hafe not reminded her). i am not pleased with this as i think the curve will keep rising. somebody perhaps you suggested to talk to oral surgeon as i am a special case.	01:34
ryouma	house i am in has ceintimeters of dust as gf does not clean. that is why i am taking so much antihistamines.	01:35
DocScrutinizer05	it's an antihistaminicum that only mitigates amount of histamine produced in inflamatory processes, or the reaction of your tissue to that histamin	01:35
ryouma	it is also a mast cell inhibitor i think	01:35
LjL	ugh	01:36
Brainstorm	Updates for Netherlands: +6502 cases (now 571573) since 23 hours ago	01:36
DocScrutinizer05	killing or neutralizing pathogenes is not really related to histamine that much	01:36
LjL	i'm sorry ryouma, sounds like a pretty awful situation at this point	01:36
ryouma	one of hte 4 teeth is definitely showing signs of getting to emergency level soon. i hope i will be able to be treated. dentist swas surprised all 4 were not.	01:37
LjL	ryouma, remind me, no one of the dentists you're seen or consulted has actually proposed doing root canals and saving the tooth/teeth?	01:37
LjL	or did some propose that but it would be several sessions and that was the deal breaker?	01:38
ryouma	idk	01:38
Brainstorm	New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: India's Serum Institute applies for approval of COVID-19 vaccine that could be sold for as little as $4 → https://is.gd/OTp12I	01:39
de-facto	DocScrutinizer05, i cant say i understand all the complicated details of immune reactions, but afaik inflammation is something that may have given an evolutionary advantage, e.g. accumulating aggressive immune cells in tissue to fight an infection or antigen, so if that is mediated by histamine and ceterizine suppresses that i am not sure its exactly the thing i want prior to being potentially exposed to low doses of SARS-CoV-2 pathogen	01:39
DocScrutinizer05	umm, nope. High histamine levels don't improve immunity. This one I can tell for sure	01:40
de-facto	but why is there something like histamine if it would be an evolutionary disadvantage?	01:41
de-facto	like in the majority of cases, not if it goes berserk like in allergies or even hyper inflammation	01:42
DocScrutinizer05	inflammation may be helpful during fighting an ongoing infection, like fever does. Unless you overreact which seems to be the real issue with covid and cytokine storm	01:42
ryouma	i thin none of them recommneded root canal idk why	01:42
DocScrutinizer05	but fighting an ongoing infection != initially catching the virus	01:44
de-facto	DocScrutinizer05, yes i agree in later stages (e.g. post viral replication) the overreaction of the immune system is the problem, but not in the early stage where viral replication could be mitigated by the immune reaction removing pathogens with non-specific immune reaction	01:44
ryouma	ther4e was a hypothesis that something, idk whether it was ige or histamine or something else, was useful for parasites, which developed countries have less of	01:45
DocScrutinizer05	yes, but I think histamine isn't a highly relevant part in this early process	01:45
de-facto	but i really have to admit i dont know that, its just my thoughts about that	01:45
ryouma	probablgy related to hygiene hypotheis	01:45
LjL	ryouma, well it instigate itching	01:46
LjL	and by scratching you may remove parasite	01:46
LjL	i think that's the core of that hypothesis	01:46
DocScrutinizer05	if it was, you would actually reduce your generic immunity to infections with antiallergica and this would be something you _would_ have heard about	01:47
de-facto	my understanding would be like 1) in viral replication phase an aggressive non-specific (native) immune reaction may remove virions that otherwise would infect cells and replicate 2) in the later stages there could be the problem of hyperinflammation reactions aka cytokine storm for the unlucky ones that progress into severe disease trajectories	01:47
de-facto	DocScrutinizer05, yes good point	01:48
DocScrutinizer05	histamine isn't triggered by pathogenes, it is triggered by immune response	01:48
de-facto	and also by vaccination adjuvants?	01:48
DocScrutinizer05	it's a result, not a trigger	01:48
de-facto	like attracting all the immune cells that get really upset about antigen presence?	01:49
ryouma	it is probably released by mast cell degranulation, which is triggered by something in the immune system, perhaps including ige or inflammatory cytokines	01:49
ryouma	(just a guess)	01:49
de-facto	hence inducing an inflammation and remembering the antigen properties?	01:49
ryouma	mast cells release a lot of other stuff too	01:50
DocScrutinizer05	well, I'm going to read https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histamin#Funktion. I won't echo what I see there as that would be pretty redundant and sort of arrogant. My knowledge ends here	01:51
Brainstorm	New from BBC Health: (news): Covid vaccine: What you need to know about vaccine safety → https://is.gd/nOtbAz	01:51
de-facto	all i am thinking is that it has some natural mechanism that was preserved over evolution hence probably it is associated with some advantage (at least if it does not run-away out of control)	01:51
ryouma	you would think so yes	01:51
de-facto	i also have to admit i am not knowledgeable about those immune system mechanisms they are very complicated and mostly like a blackbox to me	01:52
ryouma	khan academy has a good short overview course on immune system and includes one on inflammation that covers thist stuff. butg it does not cover evolutionary aspects.	01:54
ryouma	anyawy wrt dental issues, i am really uncertain what to do and the curve keeps rising to highest levels aywhere in world	01:54
LjL	ryouma, i don't know. i don't even understand how you can currently not already be in excruciating pain if your teeth are in such a bad state, so i'm a bit confused about the whole situation, and it doesn't sound like dentists have given consistent advice...	01:56
LjL	i need to see the dentist too, my gum is swollen and painful around a tooth and i think that tooth isn't quite alright :\	01:57
LjL	but it should be okay COVID-wise, our numbers are decent now... sorta... kinda...	01:58
ryouma	i am confused also and overwhelemed to the point of not doing anything (which for helath reasons can't really do much). i am still "only" on one tablet of carbamazepine. one tooth is going to get worse soon. it keeps healing and getting worse but overall owrse. it is hard to imagine covid curve going down before february, and that is a long time from now. i am brushing weith extra soium fluoride and keeping on	01:58
ryouma	teeth overnight then in morning brushing stannous fluoride tootpaste and leaving it on for aa bit and taking d3 5000iu and vit a dry and k2 and a smll amount of magnesium and a small amount of zinc (no calcium but lots of cheese).	01:58
LjL	ryouma, all of that, sure, do it, but with the situation as your various dentists have described it, i don't think it will make much of a difference	02:00
LjL	so yeah i would personally try to hurry up and see a dentist even if the COVID numbers are a bit scary	02:00
LjL	but i know, "hurrying up" is pretty much what you can't do	02:01
LjL	honestly i would be paralyzed about this choice myself, probably :\	02:01
DocScrutinizer05	histamin is found in injuries of all kinds, it seems to mainly change tissue and blood vessel properties so any "dirt" gets removed and burned out. Both seems unlikely to me to be of much help with a virus infection	02:11
DocScrutinizer05	yes, it also triggers t-cells. But it seems it's not an exclusive role it has there	02:12
DocScrutinizer05	my reasoning goes along the line that "adverse effects: 1 to 10 in 100000: increased susceptibility to infections" would appear on washpaper of antiallergica if that was any issue at all	02:14
de-facto	hmm so why is decreased immunity associated with cold weather? and why does warmth and increasing blood flow help with immunity?	02:16
de-facto	like cold temperature decreasing blood flow in the mucus and therefore also decreasing the "logistic" capabilities of the immune reaction?	02:17
de-facto	vs warm temperature and good blood circulation in a tissue being the opposite	02:18
de-facto	if it only was that, but histamine seems to be correlated with many many more body functions	02:18
de-facto	the more i read about it the more i think i dont want to mess with those regulative functions	02:19
de-facto	i have to admit i dont know much about it, its just my intuitive opinion that its involved with many natural regulative functionalities and if i would inhibit some of them a new equilibrium would establish that may adapt to the conditions of having an antihistamine present	02:21
de-facto	and i dont want to do that if i dont have to (e.g. like in the time limited situation of severe disease progression or such)	02:22
de-facto	only then i personally would see the indication to take it for a limited amount of time	02:22
de-facto	but thats my personal opinion on it and i dont have any data to backup on this, hence it may be completely wrong	02:22
DocScrutinizer05	you assume antiallergica would reduce mucous tissue. They don't, until histamine gets shed out, which afaik happens no sooner than when toxic substances from cell death appear	02:32
de-facto	if it would be a disadvantage, why did selection not eliminate it then?	02:33
DocScrutinizer05	I agree that taking them in advance, aka pre-symtomatic has probably no positive effect either	02:34
DocScrutinizer05	why did evolution not eliminate hangover ;-D	02:34
LjL	because evolution only barely gave us the ability to digest alcohol	02:35
LjL	give it time	02:35
LjL	maybe in another 100k years we'll be over hangover	02:35
DocScrutinizer05	inflammation _is_ useful for some stuff, like removing dead cells and toxic stuff faster	02:35
de-facto	Europeans at least have alcohol dehydrogenase	02:36
de-facto	some asians have less of that afaik Vietnamese or such	02:36
de-facto	well and also infections (at least i think so)	02:36
LjL	right, it's a recent development	02:36
DocScrutinizer05	but putting it dumbed-down, covid kills by making your immune system overshoot, and there anti-allergic medication helps	02:40
de-facto	so 1) inflammation is associated with infections 2) histamine is associated with inflammation 3) if inflammation was a disadvantage for infections it would select those that randomly had mutations for less inflammations 4) that did not happen since inflammation is still there, hence also histamine got a natural purpose that is associated with no disadvantage in its normal function for the majority 5) there might be scenarios where that	02:41
de-facto	is not true anymore and it is an abnormal disadvantage (e.g. allergies, hyper-inflammation etc pp)	02:41
de-facto	DocScrutinizer05, yes in late stages DEX saves lives	02:41
LjL	tinwhiskers, what is the quarantine facility like, anyway? hotel-like, much worse than hotel-like? i probably read about it at some point but i forget now	02:51
Brainstorm	New from CNBC Health: (news): The FDA says Pfizer’s Covid vaccine is safe and effective. But trial participants warn of intense symptoms after second shot → https://is.gd/MuE3W0	02:52
de-facto	probably somehow realted (not sure how)	02:53
de-facto	%title https://science.sciencemag.org/content/370/6515/eabd4585	02:54
Brainstorm	de-facto: From science.sciencemag.org: Autoantibodies against type I IFNs in patients with life-threatening COVID-19 \| Science	02:54
de-facto	%title https://science.sciencemag.org/content/370/6515/eabd4570	02:54
Brainstorm	de-facto: From science.sciencemag.org: Inborn errors of type I IFN immunity in patients with life-threatening COVID-19 \| Science	02:54
LjL	"One Pfizer trial participant told CNBC that after the second shot, he woke up with chills, shaking so hard he cracked a tooth. “It hurt to even just lay in my bed sheet,” he said. " ← yikes (from CNBC article above)	02:59
DocScrutinizer05	sounds like pretty far-fetched to me to go from "Histamine has some function since otherwise it would be eliminated by evolution" (which, while it's correct for histamine being useful, is not a generically true assumption for the evolution selection part) to "antihistamines increase susceptibility for infections"	03:01
LjL	i don't think de-facto ever stated that as a claim, just as a possibility he's uneasy with ruling out when it comes to the choice of taking an antihistamine himself for the purpose of preventing COVID	03:04
DocScrutinizer05	that's fine, since antihistamine will not prevent covid at all	03:05
de-facto	yeah its not a necessary conclusion since normal function of histamine is not an disadvantage (which does not mean its an advantage) for selection on infections, but since it seems to directly be correlated with the earliest immune reactions (e.g. allergies et al) its my suspicion that the natural function of histamine may be an advantage	03:05
DocScrutinizer05	it will not prevent covid, nor increase susceptibility for it or any other infection	03:06
de-facto	my medical doctor said its not increasing infection risk if i take Ceterizine 10mg per day	03:06
de-facto	she said that without reasoning, ok might be true, i just dont see it	03:07
LjL	"prevent COVID" was my own misrepresentation of what tinwhiskers claimed, actually	03:07
LjL	which is more like having a better outcome from it in some cases, or slowing progression	03:07
Brainstorm	Updates for France: +5172 cases (now 2.3 million) since 23 hours ago — Canada: +5962 cases (now 429170), +77 deaths (now 12854) since 19 hours ago	03:07
DocScrutinizer05	slowing progression is plausible, exactly because of the effects of histamine which moves everything from location A to B faster because of increased permeability of membranes and higher blood circulation. Moderating inflammatory processes for a better outcome is also plausible and exactly what steroids do as well	03:12
de-facto	i think it strongly depends on timing in the disease progression	03:13
de-facto	hence in my opinion there cant be a generic answer to that	03:13
Brainstorm	New from CNBC Health: Covid: The potentially crushing toll of rationing health care: The chief medical officer at Presbyterian Healthcare Services in New Mexico provides an update on what his state is doing to prevent rationing care amid full ICU capacity. → https://is.gd/0Cv30G	03:16
DocScrutinizer05	the timing is pretty clear: initially there are wirions wanting in and no histamine to do anything about that, which also means no change in situation vrom antiallergic medication. Later on cells get damaged and histamine kicks in, but if it does help fight the infection at that stage is highly questionable, rather it takes the virus to another location more quickly	03:17
DocScrutinizer05	virions*	03:18
Brainstorm	Updates for South Korea: +677 cases (now 39432), +4 deaths (now 556) since 23 hours ago — New Zealand: +3 cases (now 2088) since a day ago	03:21
de-facto	again if it would be a disadvantage why would histamine still be there in the early reaction? ok sure prior to virions arriving it should not be there, but as soon as antigens arrive its role seems to correlate with magnitude of immune reaction to them (hence antihistamine can mitigate allergies). Why woiuld i want to mitigate (early native unspecific) immune reaction to SARS-CoV-2 antigens?	03:22
de-facto	i agree later when overshooting reactions are the cause of problems one would want to suppress that obviously, but in early stages one might even want to increase immune reactions (eg. possibly with inferferons et al)	03:23
DocScrutinizer05	look, there are many different independent mechanisms in immune response and biological injury management, and not all of them are always appropriate. The body isn't optimized, it "just works, usually". I think for virus infections histamine is more in the group of inappropriate but usually not massively counterproductive reactions	03:28
LjL	i think you're both saying things without knowing enough about the process, honestly. it's not an insult, i know even less than either of you - but see the study posted in ##coronavirus for instance, where lower viral loads are correlated with worse outcomes... there's just too many unknown, imo, to get into the mechanicistic details of what histamine does, and make inference from there	03:29
de-facto	yes i agree i dont know enough about it at all	03:30
de-facto	but i would disagree with the assumption that its not optimized by evolution over time	03:31
LjL	(lol now i typed an extra one for good measure)	03:31
DocScrutinizer05	LjL: sure. I'm just stumbling over the "it wasn't eliminated by evolution so it must be useful and this means it will help avoid infection"	03:32
DocScrutinizer05	apendix wasn't eliminated by evolution yet, either	03:32
LjL	well, i think lately there's been a few studies and theories about the appendix actually having a purpose, still, today	03:32
LjL	i guess evolution doesn't always eliminate useless things, but when it comes to substances that have complicated roles within our body, i tend to think evolution regulates them heavy-handedly, so to say	03:33
DocScrutinizer05	yeah. And histamine evidently has a lot of purposes. Just not in defending organism against initial infection	03:33
de-facto	i just assume 1) disadvantages would select mutations that randomly dont have them 2) no advantages may stay for some time but eventually would get eliminated by a mutation without any disadvantage emerging hence converge to a phylogenetic tree with maximum parsimony	03:36
DocScrutinizer05	that's missing the point though	03:37
DocScrutinizer05	we're talking a specific situation, not a general usefulness	03:37
de-facto	oh i am talking about the generic situation, since i dont know the specifics of how exactly COVID differs from it	03:38
de-facto	and honestly i also think medical doctors discovered quite some surprises during 2020	03:38
DocScrutinizer05	you don't know how sars-cov2 virus differs from a staphylococcus infection or a burn?	03:39
DocScrutinizer05	or even hay fever	03:39
DocScrutinizer05	all those involve histamine in immune reaction	03:40
de-facto	i dont know that hence i also dont want to take antihistamine in advance but only when there is indication for it	03:42
DocScrutinizer05	I think we established already that this is a reasonable approach	03:50
DocScrutinizer05	since an antiallergic does basically zilch as long as you got no special conditions	03:51
de-facto	i disagree as stated above	03:54
de-facto	if it did zilch, they could sell sugar instead	03:56
de-facto	it modulates histamine and there are scenarios where that makes sense and others were it makes less sense	03:56
DocScrutinizer05	sorry, that's BS. You take antriallergics to mitigate hay fever. Sugar won't do	04:04
DocScrutinizer05	do you understand the term "special conditions"?	04:05
DocScrutinizer05	you seem to think there is always a certain level of histamine present everywhere in your body, and an antiallergic would lower this level. That's not exactly correct	04:08
DocScrutinizer05	I already wondered when you came up with the blood circulation in mucous membranes	04:09
de-facto	they called it antihistamine because it specifically targets specific histamine receptors regardless it the host thinks he got a special condition or not	04:09
DocScrutinizer05	so? as long as there is no histamine there's nothing to block. QED	04:10
DocScrutinizer05	no matter what the host "thinks"	04:10
de-facto	there are many histamine receptors specific for many functions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histamine#Mechanism_of_action	04:11
de-facto	there always is histamine	04:11
de-facto	case closed, i dont like your tone anymore.	04:12
tinwhiskers	LjL: apparently some of the hotels are very nice. They took over a hotel right next to Auckland airport so there is a range of rooms up to four star sort of quality but which one you get is luck of the draw. Not sure about the other hotels.	04:14
tinwhiskers	Someone who left here recently said they got put in a very nice room.	04:14
DocScrutinizer05	>>there always is histamine << sounds like an equilibrum. No such thing, otherwise there had to be a nor-histamine too which evidently doesn't exist	04:14
DocScrutinizer05	anyway citation needed	04:15
tinwhiskers	But frankly anything with a hot shower and TV will look like luxury compared to here so you won't see me complaining	04:15
tinwhiskers	All the rooms have TV, internet, etc.	04:15
Brainstorm	New from BMJ Open: Which factors should be included in triage? An online survey of the attitudes of the UK general public to pandemic triage dilemmas: Objective As cases of COVID-19 infections surge, concerns have renewed about intensive care units (ICUs) being overwhelmed and the need for specific triage protocols over winter. This study aimed to help [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/x0qNxY	04:17
LjL	tinwhiskers, my main concern would be... just one person per room, right?	04:17
LjL	i mean, or you and your wife, just, no strangers	04:19
tinwhiskers	Private rooms	04:20
LjL	it would be pretty absurd, epidemic-wise, to have shared rooms, but you never know	04:21
tinwhiskers	Yeah :-)	04:23
tinwhiskers	Food is delivered to your door so there is no reason to go out. People who smoke can go out but that's a risk.	04:24
tinwhiskers	The craziest aspect is that they run a daily bus service to a nearby park that is restricted to the quarantine system so people can get exercise, but you have to share the bus with other, potentially infected people. Of coursev masks are required (no idea if they can supply them or not) but no way I'm doing that. Some exercise in my room will be fine.	04:26
tinwhiskers	I'll just be staying in my room for two weeks like a fancy prison.	04:27
Brainstorm	New from BBC Health: (news): Rich countries hoarding Covid vaccines, says People's Vaccine Alliance → https://is.gd/bpgcEU	04:29
covid_santa	>><de-facto> there always is histamine << vs >>As part of an immune response to foreign pathogens, histamine is produced by basophils and by mast cells found in nearby connective tissues [...] Once formed, histamine is either stored or rapidly inactivated by its primary degradative enzymes<<	04:34
covid_santa	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histamine	04:35
Brainstorm	Updates for Bermuda: +24 cases (now 330) since a day ago	04:35
de-facto	i stay with my statements about it there is always histamine involved in many functions covered by all those functionalities (probably the list i linked above is only the tip of the iceberg) it not only appears once you get an allergy and want to take an antihistamine to mitigate that	04:38
de-facto	now blocking a whole category of receptors e.g. H1 unspecifically blocks all natural functionality involved with that	04:40
de-facto	there should be very good indication for doing that hence i am opposed to do that on longterm or prophylactic basis	04:41
de-facto	but i think we are talking in circles	04:41
de-facto	i made my point clear, and i stay with it	04:41
DocScrutinizer05	weird /nick	04:45
DocScrutinizer05	yeah, you're talking in circles. And again your last 4 lines already been confirmed by me	04:48
tinwhiskers	Yeah, I raised it as a useful thing for me to do since my window of danger is very short and poses none of the long term problems you're mentioning. It's not a good idea to be taking them long term in any sort of prophylactic role.	04:50
DocScrutinizer05	blocking H1 would help against acidosis, Ranitidin does that, and it has not really massive side effects usually. However antiallergica usually don't block H1, otherwise cetirizin would help with heart burn	04:51
DocScrutinizer05	and mucous membranes usually have no histamin around, like nowhere else does, otherwise you'd get allergic pimples on your skin	04:53
tinwhiskers	But taking them if you've just been exposed to a dangerous situation and are waiting to see if you were infected, or if you start getting any symptoms that could be covid may be useful. NOT MEDICAL ADVICE.	04:53
DocScrutinizer05	tinwhiskers: yes, I'd think this is quite low risk#	04:58
LjL	much gah	04:59
LjL	it takes two to talk in circles, DocScrutinizer05	05:00
LjL	unless one is talking to him or herself	05:00
DocScrutinizer05	haha, really?	05:00
LjL	i think you could sometimes use a less snappy attitude, and that's from someone who's pretty snappy	05:00
LjL	i sounded upset to you earlier, and to be fair, i was, and i think it was for good reason	05:01
LjL	but you come across as upset much of the time to me	05:01
LjL	why did this circular discussion need to end with de-facto leaving?	05:01
LjL	give it a break, he's made his choice about what to do or not do with antihistamines, and he has a vaguely sound logical ground for it, it could have ended like an hour ago	05:02
Brainstorm	New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: TikTok nurse who bragged about breaking Covid-19 rules loses her job → https://is.gd/JTQ0LC	05:06
Brainstorm	Updates for Belgium: +1957 cases (now 594572), +121 deaths (now 17507) since 22 hours ago — Thailand: +25 cases (now 4151) since a day ago	05:07
DocScrutinizer05	tbh I don't mind anybody's use of histamines, that's entirely their business. I just can't let go when somebody insists in objectively incorrect claims and tries to prove their point with inapplicable analogies and wrong axiomatic assumptions. I like to convince myself I do this for the greater good of more truth in the world aka no false facts spreading, but probably the sad truth is I'm just a grumpy old bossy fart	05:15
CoronaBot	04/r/coronavirus: Nurse who bragged about breaking COVID-19 rules on TikTok has lost her job (10501 votes) \| https://abc7.com/8613919/ \| https://redd.it/k9ftx1	05:15
DocScrutinizer05	sorry	05:16
derpadmin	that is just sad	05:18
derpadmin	about the nurse I mean	05:18
derpadmin	cheating is human	05:18
derpadmin	but bragging (on the web on top of that) is stupid	05:19
LjL	DocScrutinizer05, it could be a bit of both. ultimately i think you know de-facto is far from an idiot, and him leaving will only be detrimental to the channel, so at some point it's worth just letting it go. i have the same problem as you, for the record, if i think i'm right i can't let it go, but now i see it from outside and... well, it's not productive	05:24
DocScrutinizer05	indeed	05:25
DocScrutinizer05	thanks for the hint	05:25
CoronaBot	04/r/covid19: Evidence of thrombotic microangiopathy in children with SARS-CoV-2 across the spectrum of clinical presentations (80 votes) \| http://ashpublications.org/bloodadvances/article/4/23/6051/474421/Evidence-of-thrombotic-microangiopathy-in-children \| https://redd.it/k9b01m	05:27
Brainstorm	New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Chengdu enters 'wartime mode' after 7 domestic COVID-19 cases in two days → https://is.gd/EUxf5v	05:42
Brainstorm	New from The Indian Express: World: ‘We didn’t cut any corners’: Pfizer CEO on Covid vaccine → https://is.gd/sIJboM	06:31
Brainstorm	New from The Indian Express: World: Donald Trump hails vaccine ‘miracle’, with millions of doses soon → https://is.gd/SbDQ9z	06:55
Brainstorm	Updates for Germany: +29072 cases (now 1.2 million) since 16 hours ago — St Martin, France: +84 cases (now 801) since 8 days ago — Bermuda, United Kingdom: +24 cases (now 330) since a day ago — Saskatchewan, Canada: +185 cases (now 10597), +6 deaths (now 66) since a day ago	07:07
Brainstorm	Updates for Skane, Sweden: +4464 cases (now 36469), +26 deaths (now 476) since 3 days ago — Vaestra Goetaland, Sweden: +2494 cases (now 48234), +6 deaths (now 1038) since 3 days ago — Moscow Oblast, Russia: +1341 cases (now 120891), +33 deaths (now 2316) since 23 hours ago — Poltava Oblast, Ukraine: +916 cases (now 26571), +11 deaths (now 558) since 23 hours ago	07:21
CoronaBot	04/r/covid19: Schools Closures during the COVID-19 Pandemic: A Catastrophic Global Situation (81 votes) \| https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202012.0199/v1 \| https://redd.it/k98331	07:22
CoronaBot	04/r/covid19: Significant inactivation of SARS-CoV-2 by a green tea catechin, a catechin-derivative and galloylated theaflavins in vitro (83 votes) \| https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.04.412098v1 \| https://redd.it/k9e9ic	07:28
DocScrutinizer05	hmmm, +20,815 for germany according to corona.rki.de, bad enough but >><Brainstorm> Updates for Germany: +29072 cases (now 1.2 million) since 16 hours ago << is a tad steep	07:32
Brainstorm	New from CNBC Health: Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine is safe and effective, researchers confirm in peer-reviewed study: The AstraZeneca-University of Oxford vaccine is the first to have its late-stage trial results independently reviewed and published in a medical journal. → https://is.gd/fCbW2f	07:44
ryouma	those trials need to monitor those who have diseases known to include immune issues following viral infections and vaccinations, and which include cytokine issues (afk)	08:13
Brainstorm	Updates for Canada: +3330 cases (now 429628) since 13 hours ago	08:21
KREYREEN	How many drops of vitamine D in a form of vigantol can you take daily and why only 5	08:38
KREYREEN	i guess because it's a load on liver and that it needs to be balanced with a calcium?	08:38
euod[m]	it's also toxic on some level.	08:39
KREYREEN	euod[m], elaborate	08:40
KREYREEN	digoxin toxicity relevant?	08:40
KREYREEN	nah irelevant different thing	08:41
KREYREEN	aaa	08:41
euod[m]	I think it's mostly the calcium thing.	08:41
KREYREEN	So am i insane for taking 1000mg tablet with 10 drops of vigantal	08:41
KREYREEN	i guess i would defide it in 2 hours intervals to make liver happy~	08:42
KREYREEN	*devide it	08:42
euod[m]	being fat soluble you can run into issued where if you lose a huge amount of weight, you end up hypocalcemic to some insane degree. I can't give you any advice, just the general idea is to ask a doctor before taking things.	08:42
KREYREEN	ah yes i am dissolving that in a mouthfull of milk	08:44
KREYREEN	and the calcium in water	08:45
KREYREEN	euod[m], i asked doctor doing a cross examination and was curious how useful ##covid-19 will be for that~	08:46
DocScrutinizer05	I think we covered that a few days ago, let me find it	08:46
KREYREEN	DocScrutinizer05, oke thanku	08:46
KREYREEN	euod[m], can you elaborate why weight loss causes hypocalcaemie in this scenario?	08:47
DocScrutinizer05	it's already scrolled out of my extended buffer, but it was like 10,000IU/d is safe for max 1 to 2 months. Long term like max 2000IU/d, rather 500-1000	08:52
KREYREEN	> Cholecalciferol is made in the skin following UVB light exposure. -- Is it sane to get UVB light and shine that on my body?	08:52
KREYREEN	^source wiki	08:52
DocScrutinizer05	it accumulates pretty slowly	08:52
KREYREEN	DocScrutinizer05, elaborate accumulates pretty slowly?	08:53
DocScrutinizer05	body stores up calciferol so the level gets steady after several months of constant intake	08:53
KREYREEN	DocScrutinizer05, i though it converts that to calcitriol and then stores that for that amount of time?	08:55
DocScrutinizer05	the substances all sound similar, I forgot which one gets stored, which one gets metabolized within a few hours and which one is the provitamine	08:56
KREYREEN	i see O.o	08:56
KREYREEN	thanks for info helpful! ^-^	08:56
DocScrutinizer05	anyway for vibantol etc you may use pretty high doeses for a month to build up a proper level in body. Long term you should not use >2000IU	08:57
DocScrutinizer05	vigantol, even	08:57
KREYREEN	ye just got blood tests and my vitamine D is very low so i wanted to get as high dose as possible O.o	08:57
KREYREEN	that is still sane	08:57
DocScrutinizer05	tests for vitamine D are pretty much meaningless	08:58
KREYREEN	where doc recommended 5 drops which equals to 100 000 UI	08:58
KREYREEN	wait	08:58
KREYREEN	that sounds wrong	08:58
Brainstorm	New from NPR: Chinese Vaccine 86% Effective, UAE Health Ministry Says: The Sinopharm vaccine, developed by a Chinese pharmaceutical company, has already been approved for emergency use in a few countries. → https://is.gd/SBBLOG	08:58
KREYREEN	says 1ml (40 drops) is colecalciferolum 0.5mg which is 20 000UI so 5 drops would be 2500 UI of D3	09:00
KREYREEN	so 5 drops should be optimal it seems O.o	09:00
KREYREEN	but probably separated as 2.5 drops every 12 h would be better on kidneys?	09:00
KREYREEN	or taking 3 every 8 hours O.o	09:01
DocScrutinizer05	vitamin-D3 tests only show the results of last few hours or days of food. For the real relevant status you use test for calcidiol which has a half live time of 2 months	09:02
KREYREEN	DocScrutinizer05, iirc that should be test on calcidiol	09:03
KREYREEN	will have the paper tomorrow though	09:04
DocScrutinizer05	nah, there are 50,000IU capsules taken one per week. Forget short term effects with cholecalciferol	09:04
KREYREEN	so you suggest taking more then 2500 UI per day?	09:05
DocScrutinizer05	any effects on kidneys etc are from calcidiol level which takes months to build up	09:05
DocScrutinizer05	I) suggest you folow advice of your doc, 2500IU per day sounds ok, don't worry about splitting it, you even can take today's and yesterday's dose at once if you forgot yesterday	09:07
Brainstorm	Updates for US: +221917 cases (now 15.6 million), +2790 deaths (now 293439) since 19 hours ago	09:07
KREYREEN	elaborate on the effect taking months? Body takes the vitamine C and processes it slowly over the term of two months? alike it has storage of 50K UI but processes only e.g. 2000 UI per day?	09:08
KREYREEN	DocScrutinizer05, ^	09:09
DocScrutinizer05	as mentioned above, there are preparations that do once per week rather high dosage equivalent to 8000IU/d, in a weekly capsule. There's no adverse effects in it you'd guess, if they sell this	09:09
DocScrutinizer05	uh? did we talk about D3 or C now?	09:09
KREYREEN	ehh sorry! meant D3	09:09
KREYREEN	DocScrutinizer05, about the capsules last time i checked they had huge warning in red on the paper they come with to consult with doctor before taking them O.o	09:10
Brainstorm	New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread \| December 09, 2020: The WHO pages contain up-to-date and global information. Please refer to our Wiki for additional information. → https://is.gd/fVZBFK	09:10
DocScrutinizer05	your body has a buffer for a whole winter of D3, it will drain slowly and also takes quite a few wereks to fill up again if low	09:10
DocScrutinizer05	weeks*	09:11
KREYREEN	so you think it only processes the calcitriol when it has some level of stored of it?	09:11
DocScrutinizer05	yes, you should not take 50000IU capsules, particularly not daily	09:11
KREYREEN	I see O.o	09:12
KREYREEN	thanks helpful ^-^	09:13
DocScrutinizer05	your body consumes a certain small amount of calcidiol from buffer and converts it to D3. it fills up the buffer with all the cholecalciferol you give it, but it takes months until the buffer is filled and starts to cause adverse effects. An intocication can build up after several months	09:14
DocScrutinizer05	intoxication*	09:15
DocScrutinizer05	a single high dose of cholecalciferol needs to be several magnitudes higher than recommended normal dosage to cause adverse effects	09:16
KREYREEN	DocScrutinizer05, Do you know where the body stores it? Wiki says that it converts in the liver to calcifediol (25-hydroxyvitamin D) which is then converted in the kidney to calcitriol (1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D).	09:16
DocScrutinizer05	I caculated I would need to eat a few thousands of my 500IU pills to cause adverse effects	09:17
KREYREEN	and you are saying then when the buffer is filled up then it causes the adverse effects? e.g. vomitting, constipation, weakness, confusion and kidney stones?	09:18
DocScrutinizer05	sorry, no idea where it gets stored. Liver maybe?	09:18
KREYREEN	would also guess liver O.o	09:18
KREYREEN	and then processed in kidneys makes sense to me	09:18
KREYREEN	which it says kidneys converts calcifediol to calcitriol which is the active form	09:19
KREYREEN	DocScrutinizer05, care to elaborate how did you calculated it?	09:19
DocScrutinizer05	%tr <de Die Packungsbeilagen von apothekenpflichtigen Vitamin-D-Präparaten geben für Erwachsene mit normaler Funktion der Nebenschilddrüsen eine Überdosierungschwelle zwischen 40.000 und 100.000 IE pro Tag über 1 bis 2 Monate an	09:20
Brainstorm	DocScrutinizer05, German to English: The package inserts of pharmacy-only vitamin D preparations indicate an overdose threshold between 40,000 and 100,000 IU per day for 1 to 2 months for adults with normal function of the parathyroid glands (MyMemory, Google) [... want %more?]	09:20
KREYREEN	ah i see O.o	09:20
DocScrutinizer05	LD50 (oral) in rats is 42 mg/kg body weight	09:23
DocScrutinizer05	100 µg = 4000 IE	09:24
KREYREEN	What's IE?	09:24
DocScrutinizer05	sorry IU	09:24
KREYREEN	I see O.o	09:24
DocScrutinizer05	so 420 pills 400IU per kg body weight is really begging for trouble	09:25
DocScrutinizer05	so 420 pills 4009IU per kg body weight is really begging for trouble	09:26
DocScrutinizer05	damn	09:26
KREYREEN	o.o	09:26
DocScrutinizer05	3200 of my 500IU pills * 55kg	09:27
DocScrutinizer05	quite a bucket full	09:27
KREYREEN	yep O.o So worst case scenario i notice adverse effects and have higher chance for a painful kidney stone if i take too much as LD50 is too far away compared in example in mice assuming that i would be a rat man	09:28
KREYREEN	which i ain't so reasonably assuming 180K UI being LD50 or around?	09:28
KREYREEN	well not reasonably bcs no evidence.. lets call it educated quess for 111.9kg early 20s male	09:29
KREYREEN	*white male as skin color seems to affect the speed of how D3 is processed based on info from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCSXNGc7pfs	09:30
DocScrutinizer05	100 * 40mg is 4g, aka 4/25 million 1000IU pills	09:31
DocScrutinizer05	is your LD50	09:31
KREYREEN	DocScrutinizer05, how can you be sure about LD50 in human?	09:31
DocScrutinizer05	it's roughly identical in all mamals	09:32
KREYREEN	true	09:32
DocScrutinizer05	dog 88 mg/kg; rat 42 mg/kg, mouse 43 mg/kg, Bandicota bengalensis rat 31-35 mg/kg. cats more tolerant than dogs	09:34
KREYREEN	i see O.o	09:35
Brainstorm	New from Medical Xpress: Program reduces social isolation among middle-aged and older adults: An existing service in the North West of England called Community Connectors, which enables adults to access social activities within their community, can help reduce loneliness and social isolation, according to an analysis published in Health & Social Care [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/frINoX	09:35
Brainstorm	Updates for Lithuania: +3130 cases (now 80556), +31 deaths (now 704) since a day ago	09:35
DocScrutinizer05	babies much more susceptible! like 1mg/kg might already kill	09:36
KREYREEN	> 100 * 40mg is 4g, aka 4/25 million 1000IU pills -- So that translates to 160 000 000 000 UI?	09:36
KREYREEN	4/25=0.16 \| (0.16 * 1000UI) * 1 000 000	09:37
KREYREEN	x.x	09:37
DocScrutinizer05	%units 4000000/25*1000	09:37
DocScrutinizer05	cmd: calc <<<4000000/25*1000 >160000000	09:38
KREYREEN	o.o	09:39
KREYREEN	ah i see	09:39
CoronaBot	04/r/covid19: SARS-CoV-2 infection and transmission in educational settings: a prospective, cross-sectional analysis of infection clusters and outbreaks in England (83 votes) \| https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30882-3/fulltext \| https://redd.it/k9ieka	09:47
Brainstorm	New from Medical Xpress: Nearly 72% of Black patients with gynecologic cancer and COVID-19 were hospitalized, compared with 46% of non-Blacks: Among patients in New York City with gynecologic cancer and COVID-19, Black patients younger than 65 years of age were five times more likely to require hospitalization than non-Blacks in the same age group. [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/xN9QMY	09:48
DocScrutinizer05	KREYREEN: 25ug are 1000IU, so 1IU are 25ng aka 25E-9 g	09:55
DocScrutinizer05	cmd: calc <<<4 / 25E-9 >40000000	09:56
DocScrutinizer05	umm	09:56
DocScrutinizer05	cmd: calc <<<"4 / 25E-9" >160000000	09:56
Brainstorm	New from Medical Xpress: Confirmed COVID-19 cases and outbreaks were low in schools and nurseries in England that re-opened after 1st lockdown: COVID-19 cases and outbreaks were low among staff and students in schools and nurseries in England that re-opened during the summer half-term after lockdown, according to research published in The Lancet [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/HKlq4X	10:01
Brainstorm	New from Medical Xpress: UAE says Chinese vaccine 86% effective, offers few details: The United Arab Emirates said Wednesday a Chinese coronavirus vaccine tested in the federation of sheikhdoms is 86% effective, in a statement that provided few details but marked the first public release of information on the efficacy of the shot. → https://is.gd/vs8pRa	10:13
Brainstorm	New from Medical Xpress: US virus deaths hit record levels with the holidays ahead: Deaths from COVID-19 in the U.S. have soared to more than 2,200 a day on average, matching the frightening peak reached last April, and cases per day have eclipsed 200,000 on average for the first time on record, with the crisis all but certain to get worse because of [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/QCX89e	10:26
Brainstorm	New from The Indian Express: World: Biden vows to reopen most schools after 1st 100 days on job → https://is.gd/4OaTAL	10:38
Brainstorm	New from StatNews: Opinion: To defeat Covid-19, we must acknowledge the fear it engenders: Respect the fear individuals have about Covid-19. Acknowledge it. Listen to what they have to say. Support them. Be patient and compassionate. And we can overcome the fear together. → https://is.gd/0IffDb	10:51
Brainstorm	New from Medical Xpress: Latinos in Los Angeles twice as likely to contract COVID: data: Latinos living in Los Angeles are twice as likely to contract COVID-19 as the county's white population, with "essential" in-person jobs and densely populated residences leaving the group highly exposed to the virus, the latest official data shows. → https://is.gd/hWHf03	11:03
Brainstorm	New from WHO Euro: COVID-19 and influenza: sharing knowledge across WHO as Europe heads into winter: WHO brought together countries from the northern and southern hemispheres to understand more about a unique challenge for 2020: how do we respond to seasonal influenza alongside COVID-19? → https://is.gd/YBLR71	11:28
Brainstorm	New from BBC Health: Covid-19 vaccine: Allergy warning over new jab: People with history of significant allergic reactions told not to have Covid jab for the moment. → https://is.gd/YDCtd0	11:53
snake	do we really need to call it a jab	11:57
Brainstorm	Updates for Switzerland: +5086 cases (now 363654), +86 deaths (now 5618) since 22 hours ago	12:07
Brainstorm	Updates for Germany: +676 deaths (now 20216) since 21 hours ago	12:35
Brainstorm	New from NPR: U.K. Regulators Tell People With Severe Allergies Not To Get Vaccine: Two National Health Service workers with long histories of severe allergies received the Pfizer, BioNTech coronavirus vaccine Tuesday. Both are now recovering after bad reactions to the dose. → https://is.gd/QSfeye	13:07
Brainstorm	New from Virology.ws: My at-home SARS-CoV-2 antibody test result: Recently I had a false positive PCR result for SARS-CoV-2. To confirm that I was not infected, I did an assay for viral antibodies in my blood using a rapid, at home, lateral flow assay. In this video I explain how the assay works and what my results mean. → https://is.gd/cmjHcW	13:19
Brainstorm	New from CNBC Health: (news): Oxford-AstraZeneca Covid vaccine to immunize the planet 'more effectively,' Lancet editor says → https://is.gd/dFGCNC	13:44
Brainstorm	Updates for Denmark: +2558 cases (now 97357), +3 deaths (now 904) since 23 hours ago	14:07
CoronaBot	04/r/covid19: UAE Ministry of Health and Prevention announces official registration of inactivated COVID-19 vaccine used in #4Humanity Trials (85 votes) \| https://www.wam.ae/en/details/1395302893589 \| https://redd.it/k9opae	14:07
Brainstorm	Updates for Netherlands: +6528 cases (now 576965), +66 deaths (now 9841) since 23 hours ago	14:35
Brainstorm	New from Medical Xpress: What scientists are learning about COVID-19 and the brain: We caught up with cell biologist Anne Bang, who recently teamed up with her husband to study how SARS-CoV-2 affects the brain → https://is.gd/BRBjd5	14:35
Brainstorm	Updates for Germany: +719 deaths (now 20259) since 23 hours ago	14:52
euod[m]	snake : could be worse.	14:53
euod[m]	"the stab"	14:53
euod[m]	"the impalement"	14:53
euod[m]	get some luer lock adapters lined up and we could make trident syringes with 3 sharp ends.	14:54
Brainstorm	New from Medical Xpress: COVID-19 vaccines: experts answer your questions: Two new COVID-19 vaccines, developed at record-setting speed, are soon to be assessed by U.S. agencies for emergency use in combating the ongoing pandemic. → https://is.gd/EPJz5H	14:59
Brainstorm	New from CNBC Health: Oxford-AstraZeneca Covid vaccine to immunize the planet 'more effectively,' Lancet editor says: The Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine has a "distinct comparative advantage" over other leading candidates, according to the editor-in-chief of The Lancet. → https://is.gd/dFGCNC	15:12
Brainstorm	Updates for US: +214493 cases (now 15.6 million), +2572 deaths (now 293503) since 23 hours ago	15:21
Brainstorm	New from Medical Xpress: When can children get the COVID-19 vaccine? 5 questions parents are asking: The first U.S. COVID-19 vaccines are expected in clinics in mid-December, and states are drawing up plans for who should get vaccinated first. → https://is.gd/9N4OAx	15:25
Brainstorm	New from Medical Xpress: England: Why another lockdown might be needed in February 2021: England recently emerged from a four-week lockdown into a series of tiered restrictions, and there is good news about the authorisation of the first vaccine for COVID-19, which is starting to be deployed. But with restrictions loosened, infection rates still high [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/kkn7Kw	15:38
Brainstorm	New from Medical Xpress: Children with cystic fibrosis suffer mild illness from Covid-19: Children with cystic fibrosis who do not have pre-existing severe lung damage have mild or asymptomatic illness when infected with COVID-19, a new study has revealed. → https://is.gd/BoSOcK	15:50
Brainstorm	New from Medical Xpress: US gun violence: Too many people have died in 2020 – and COVID played a larger part than you think: Recent reports here and elsewhere in the media have focused on gun violence in the US, reporting a dramatic rise in mass shootings in 2020—despite the pandemic—which by November had overtaken the total for 2019. The term [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/xdgXG2	16:02
Brainstorm	Updates for Virginia, US: +4398 cases (now 267128), +21 deaths (now 4281) since a day ago — Mississippi, US: +3658 cases (now 171584), +25 deaths (now 4042) since 23 hours ago	16:06
Brainstorm	New from Medical Xpress: What psychology can tell us about why some people don't wear masks – and how to change their minds: While the world is eagerly waiting for COVID-19 vaccines to bring an end to the pandemic, wearing a mask to help prevent viral transmission has become more or less mandatory globally. Though many people embrace mask wearing and [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/pRJhPC	16:15
Brainstorm	New from The Indian Express (Health): Health: Sore eyes common vision-based indicator of COVID-19, study finds → https://is.gd/BMYFWF	16:27
Brainstorm	Updates for Moldova: +1766 cases (now 120970), +21 deaths (now 2481) since a day ago — Mayotte: +318 cases (now 5499), +2 deaths (now 51) since 13 days ago	16:52
Brainstorm	New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Study Evaluating Safety, Tolerability and Efficacy of Allocetra-OTS in Patients With COVID-19 → https://is.gd/BTjDa3	17:05
Brainstorm	Updates for Canada: +4627 cases (now 430925), +72 deaths (now 12895) since 22 hours ago	17:06
CoronaBot	04/r/covid19: Healthcare workers 7 times as likely to have severe COVID-19 as other workers (83 votes) \| https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/healthcare-workers-7-times-as-likely-to-have-severe-covid-19-as-other-workers/ \| https://redd.it/k9s2po	17:08
Brainstorm	Updates for Italy: +12755 cases (now 1.8 million), +499 deaths (now 61739) since a day ago	17:20
Brainstorm	Updates for United Kingdom: +14250 cases (now 1.8 million), +484 deaths (now 62566) since 10 hours ago — Arizona, US: +4444 cases (now 382601), +108 deaths (now 7081) since 23 hours ago	17:38
Brainstorm	New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): The Efficacy, Safety and Immunogenicity Study of Inactivated SARS-CoV-2 Vaccine for Preventing Against COVID-19 → https://is.gd/btwm70	17:42
pepee	https://in.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-britain-vaccine/two-reports-of-allergic-reactions-on-first-day-of-vaccine-rollout-uk-medical-regulator-idINKBN28J1D1	17:49
Brainstorm	New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Study Evaluating Safety, Tolerability and Efficacy of Allocetra-OTS in Patients With COVID-19 → https://is.gd/BTjDa3	17:56
LjL	https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/09/pfizer-covid-vaccine-nhs-extreme-allergy-sufferers-regulators-reaction	17:56
LjL	The MHRA advice states: “Any person with a history of a significant allergic reaction to a vaccine, medicine or food (such as previous history of anaphylactoid reaction or those who have been advised to carry an adrenaline autoinjector) should not receive the Pfizer/BioNtech vaccine. Resuscitation facilities should be available at all times for all vaccinations. Vaccination should only be carried out in facilities where resuscitation measures ar	17:56
LjL	e available.”	17:56
LjL	i am preeeeetty sure we won't have the resource to vaccinate everybody somewhere with resuscitation facilities	17:57
LjL	chances are GPs will be tasked with it	17:57
pepee	afaiu, a lot of people don't even know they are allergic until they have an allergic reaction, so...	17:59
Brainstorm	New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): The Efficacy, Safety and Immunogenicity Study of Inactivated SARS-CoV-2 Vaccine for Preventing Against COVID-19 → https://is.gd/btwm70	18:08
Brainstorm	New from The Indian Express: World: Don’t mix Sputnik vaccine with alcohol, says Russian official → https://is.gd/Ew6MFI	18:34
pepee	LOL	18:39
CoronaBot	04/r/coronavirus: COVID Patient Tells Doctor All 22 People at Her Thanksgiving Dinner Have Symptoms (10504 votes) \| https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/covid-patient-tells-doctor-all-22-people-at-her-thanksgiving-dinner-have-symptoms/ar-BB1bLDQf?ocid=uxbndlbing \| https://redd.it/k9qywc	18:45
Brainstorm	New from Medical Xpress: The impact of COVID-19 on cancer: The National Cancer Research Institute (NCRI), Cancer Research UK (CRUK) and Public Health England's National Disease Registration Service (PHE NCRAS) hosted a Cancer/COVID-19 Research Summit with researchers from different disciplines discussing the impact that COVID-19 is having on cancer [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/sdW39H	18:46
Brainstorm	New from CNBC Health: (news): Covid vaccine offers exhausted health-care workers hope—but not immediate relief—as ICUs fill across U.S. → https://is.gd/aEGGGT	18:59
Brainstorm	Updates for Spain: +9773 cases (now 1.7 million), +373 deaths (now 47019) since a day ago	19:20
ArchangelMetatro	https://lbry.tv/@theconsciousresistance:7/James-Corbett-on-COVID-19,-The-Great-Reset,-and-Problem-Reaction-Solution:6	19:23
Brainstorm	New from CNBC Health: (news): Pentagon reveals plans to distribute first 44,000 doses of Pfizer vaccine as early as next week → https://is.gd/ElviKc	19:49
Brainstorm	Updates for Uganda: +1199 cases (now 25059), +12 deaths (now 219) since 9 hours ago	19:52
Brainstorm	Updates for Mauritania: +229 cases (now 10105), +5 deaths (now 202) since 23 hours ago — Germany: +25054 cases (now 1.2 million), +714 deaths (now 20414) since 23 hours ago	20:06
Brainstorm	New from ScienceMag: [Editors' Choice] Anti-inflammatory drug formulations fight fat: Macrophage-targeted dexamethasone improves weight loss and glucose tolerance not possible with systemic administration of the free drug. → https://is.gd/PWH3gP	20:13
Brainstorm	Updates for Canada: +6198 cases (now 432940), +107 deaths (now 12949) since 23 hours ago	20:20
Brainstorm	New from Medical Xpress: Cyberattack hits EU vaccine regulator as West grapples with virus surge: An EU regulator considering the rapid approval of coronavirus vaccines said Wednesday it had been the target of a cyberattack, as Germany and other northern hemisphere countries grappled with a winter surge in the pandemic. → https://is.gd/UKL86x	20:38
Brainstorm	New from Medical Xpress: AP-NORC poll: Only half in US want shots as vaccine nears: As states frantically prepare to begin months of vaccinations that could end the pandemic, a new poll finds only about half of Americans are ready to roll up their sleeves when their turn comes. → https://is.gd/Nhcako	20:50
Brainstorm	New from Medical Xpress: S.Africa now experiencing COVID-19 'second wave': minister: South Africa, the country most affected by the coronavirus on the continent, has entered a second wave of the pandemic, the health minister declared Wednesday. → https://is.gd/UcsNJy	21:02
Brainstorm	New from Medical Xpress: New York expects first vaccine doses within days: New York is expected to receive its first doses of the coronavirus vaccine as early as this weekend, Governor Andrew Cuomo said Wednesday. → https://is.gd/flgAAa	21:14
Brainstorm	Updates for Tennessee, US: +8213 cases (now 422962), +62 deaths (now 5171) since a day ago	21:20
Brainstorm	New from CNBC Health: (news): Pentagon reveals plans to distribute first 44,000 doses of Pfizer vaccine as early as next week → https://is.gd/ElviKc	21:27
Brainstorm	New from In The Pipeline: The Oxford/AstraZeneca Vaccine Efficacy Data: We now have a complete writeup of the efficacy data from the Oxford/AZ vaccine effort in The Lancet, and I’m glad to see it. There have been a number of questions about this candidate and its effects in the clinic, so the chance to get a closer look is welcome. This is of course the → https://is.gd/vBizeY	21:39
Brainstorm	New from PLOS ONE: Transmissibility of COVID-19 depends on the viral load around onset in adult and symptomatic patients: by Hitoshi Kawasuji, Yusuke Takegoshi, Makito Kaneda, Akitoshi Ueno, Yuki Miyajima, Koyomi Kawago, Yasutaka Fukui, Yoshihiro Yoshida, Miyuki Kimura, Hiroshi Yamada, Ippei Sakamaki, Hideki Tani, Yoshitomo Morinaga, Yoshihiro Yamamoto [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/UmlGPL	22:05
Brainstorm	New from PLOS ONE: The PLOS ONE Editors: Expression of Concern: Evaluation of fusion protein cleavage site sequences of Newcastle disease virus in genotype matched vaccines → https://is.gd/n3Mdb5	22:18
Brainstorm	Updates for Syria: +95 cases (now 8675), +7 deaths (now 465) since a day ago	22:20
Brainstorm	Updates for New Hampshire, US: +969 cases (now 27592), +4 deaths (now 570) since 23 hours ago	23:22
LjL	I can't check right now, is this accurate? 14,9938] 99,99 9,99Brainstorm:99,99 California, US: +33903 cases (now 1.4 million), +197 deaths (now 20289) since 23 hours ago	23:25
Brainstorm	New from The Atlantic: The Vaccine Is Not Coming Soon Enough for Nursing Homes: A new COVID-19 spike in long-term-care facilities emerged in the West and Northeast last week, with both regions reporting their highest numbers of new cases in the past six months. The Midwest and South saw a small downturn in new cases, which is promising, yet the week [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/Rr7O2q	23:34
Brainstorm	New from CNBC Health: (news): Dry ice sales booming as hospitals get ready to store Pfizer's Covid vaccine at minus 94 degrees → https://is.gd/fsBdgI	23:46
Brainstorm	New from FDA Press Releases: FDA: Coronavirus (COVID-19) Update: FDA Authorizes First Direct-to-Consumer COVID-19 Test System → https://is.gd/HMjkk7	23:59

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