libera/##covid-19/ Thursday, 2021-01-14

DocScrutinizer05fool00:04
DocScrutinizer05won't miss them00:04
DocScrutinizer05/whowas thunor00:06
DocScrutinizer05thunor ~thunor 193.56.252.172 * Tom00:06
DocScrutinizer05adjust ban?00:06
LjL?00:06
LjLthat's the ban i set00:06
LjLactually that chanserv set00:07
LjL(actually a quiet)00:07
DocScrutinizer05M247-LTD-Dublin-Network  prolly DHCP, tomorrow another IP00:09
LjLi'll deal with tomorrow tomorrow00:09
DocScrutinizer05:-)00:10
LjLit's hard enough dealing with today00:10
DocScrutinizer05just saying, prolly a *!thunor@* was less effort longterm than *!*@193.56.252.172  - then maybe I recall chanserv isn't good at this00:12
DocScrutinizer05hmm nope, no difference between user and hostmask quiet (anymore?)00:18
LjLactually the one you said wouldn't work since the ~ before the ident, or a wildcard, is necessary :P00:19
LjLand indeed i just told chanserv to do what chanserv does, i didn't specify a mask00:20
LjLi also don't think they'll be back, by default00:20
LjLmost of these people are hit and run00:20
LjLif on the other hand it's someone obstinate, it's not like changing your ident is hard, so it'd be a problem anyway00:20
LjLubLIX[m], seen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owLXHxDopiY by any chance?00:21
ubLIX[m]nope. precis?00:27
DocScrutinizer05LjL: it's just most are silly lazy dumbasses and they get a new IP every 24h per default. They don't care to change their user name00:28
de-factocome on dont talk about people in their absence its not fair imho00:31
DocScrutinizer05or even if they do, they get a new IP anyway. Usually user name or nick are less ephemeral than IP00:31
LjLubLIX[m], it's actually not all that interesting IMO, but i think i'm starting to see a trend where people bring up the origins again and no longer treat "lab leak" as lunacy00:32
de-factoDocScrutinizer05, what did you mean with: de-facto: numbers are about to "stabilize" regarding "CI" it seems  ?00:32
DocScrutinizer05de-facto: you suggest I ibite all silly lazy dumbasses on freenode before talking about them? ;-D00:32
DocScrutinizer05invite*00:32
de-factoyes00:33
ubLIX[m]definitely a marked contrast in tone from 10 months ago00:33
DocScrutinizer05I meant we prolly will see in a week that we actually were at a real ~20k new cases per day as of today00:33
de-factoah yeah they removed the warning on their RKI dashboard00:34
DocScrutinizer05they did? wow00:34
de-factook they now warn about obsolete data from yesterday but nothing about new years anymore00:35
BrainstormNew from The Lancet (Online): [Comment] The European Medicines Agency's EU conditional marketing authorisations for COVID-19 vaccines: Few medicines are awaited as eagerly as COVID-19 vaccines. Extraordinary efforts by scientists, regulators, and developers enabled the European Medicines Agency (EMA) to recommend the first EU conditional marketing [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/u3NaRu00:36
de-factoDocScrutinizer05, btw i made a daily occupied ICU graph with relative daily changes https://imgur.com/a/hm3YoWI https://i.imgur.com/JsJBwO0.png source: https://www.intensivregister.de/#/aktuelle-lage/zeitreihen00:39
de-factoDaily decline by ~1% now, for the first wave it went up to daily ~5% decline in occupied ICU beds00:40
DocScrutinizer05seen it, said "nice!"00:40
DocScrutinizer05nice, again :-)00:40
LjLubLIX[m], i'm also going mad at my self because i remember reading something and being like "GOOD, SOMEONE SAYS THAT!" which involved absence of evidence being taken as evidence of absence... but then, my browser lost its tabs, and now i have no idea what it was except for what i just said00:40
de-factonot sure if daily new infections allow for much more than that00:40
DocScrutinizer05oh, I *tried* to reply "nice" but prolly my PC already stalled00:41
LjLubLIX[m], i've also added that long "lab origins" article on NYMag to the links although to be honest i haven't read it *all* :P00:41
DocScrutinizer05LjL: "browser history"?00:42
ubLIX[m]that article in the end came to the same conclusion as most somewhat measured opinions: we can't yet know00:43
LjLDocScrutinizer05, probably hopeless, i don't even remember the general topic... i can't search *inside* pages via the history, i'd have to search literally for "evidence of absence". maybe a grep in the actual history files, if they're not mangled00:43
de-factoi always wonder what exact difference it would make to addressing our current problem with it?00:43
de-factoin a biological sense i mean00:44
LjLubLIX[m], that's why i included it, i put a note in the commit that it seemed balanced and included opinions from both sides. but i think it's important to be *open* to the possibility it's a lab leak because being like "lalala i can't hear your conspiracy theories" isn't helpful in this case imo00:44
DocScrutinizer05a tad OT, but can't help it: I suggested to the makes of this "index all file and media content on desktop" tool that they should index *content* of visited web pages00:44
LjLde-facto, yeah again you always say that00:44
LjLit may not make an immediate obvious difference00:44
LjLbut i don't even want to come up again with examples on why it might or might not make a difference00:44
LjLtell me why it shouldn't be discussed? it's clearly important00:45
LjLif lab leaks can cause what this pandemic has caused, then lab leaks should be stopped00:45
LjLwhich may mean that some labs, themselves, should be closed00:45
LjLwhich is certainly a conclusion that many virologists wouldn't want to arrive to00:45
gigasu_shidawhat's the point DocScrutinizer05 ?00:45
LjLand since it's mostly virologists who can have a scientific opinion on whether it can be a lab leak, well00:45
DocScrutinizer05gigasu_shida: sorry, off topic00:46
LjLthere's a conflict of interest where the people most likely to spot a lab leak are the least likely to tell us about it00:46
BrainstormUpdates for Netherlands: +5725 cases (now 891359) since 23 hours ago — Switzerland: +51 deaths (now 8521) since 23 hours ago00:46
gigasu_shidabut why index content of web sites too?00:46
LjLgigasu_shida, because of... scroll up? :P because it would allow me to find again the page i'm forgetting00:46
LjLbut at the same time i think indexing all visited websites would make my hard drive unhappy00:46
LjLi dunno, though, cache is there, it's just smaller than history00:47
de-factoyeah of course if lab leak would have caused that we obviously would have a severe security problem in labs (and i have discussed my opinion about that already, imho such labs should not be inside densely populated areas and have only routes for employees do go out of it via quarantine), but what i meant is if there is any implication from the origin itself in terms of biological properties of this virus00:47
DocScrutinizer05so your local seearch would find "browser history" content by keywords on the content of a page,  even when the URL or even page caption was completely meaningless or unrelated00:47
LjLindexing cache might be reasonable, but here in GNOME for instance, Tracker does the indexing, and it might integrate with GNOME's Epiphany browser, but Firefox? probably not easily00:47
LjLde-facto, it's more likely the biological properties can give us hints on the origin... although if it were *engineered* (but that's a different claim), then whoever engineered it might also know about some weak spots that others haven't found00:48
de-factoyes thats true, but it being engineered and all the experts (knowing about such methods) looking at it not finding clues for that make the engineering scenario quite unlikely imho. 00:50
gigasu_shidathat would be a nice tool actually00:51
de-factoand if it was collected on purpose (e.g. from a bat) and then leaked from the lab (or employee contaminated while collecting it) surely is a biosec concern but not really for the biological properties of the virus itself00:51
gigasu_shidathen you could just visit the cached page instead of refreshing it and getting new adverts00:51
DocScrutinizer05LjL: FF for sure would need a plugin for that00:54
de-factoDocScrutinizer05, afaik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YaCy does something like that, indexing pages visited by its owner (its a distributed p2p search engine)00:56
DocScrutinizer05hah yeah, this would obviously be an immanent part of a P2P search engine00:59
DocScrutinizer05thanks00:59
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Moderna CEO says the world will have to live with Covid 'forever' → https://is.gd/KmPBRb00:59
ubLIX[m]de-facto: i'd like the view of an appropriately expert virologist, who was similarly at the frontier in a basket of security concerns such as reverse engineering, stenography etc. it's not obvious to this lay person that frontier virologists are also frontier security professionals. i think not having one's mind bent out of shape by decades of offensive or defensive security practise must limit the view of virologists01:00
DocScrutinizer05prolly running that P2P thingie "offline" is all it needs01:01
ubLIX[m]if a virologist or genetic engineer can expound realistically on what can be natural and what cannot, then this expertise can set about designing that which appears natural01:01
ubLIX[m]self-interest is another reason to set against the testimony of subject matter experts01:03
ubLIX[m]none of which is to boost probability of design over accident, or even over zoonotic origin. we can't yet know01:05
BrainstormUpdates for Haiti: +154 cases (now 10569) since 22 hours ago01:11
de-factoyeah i agree with all that, but still i am curious about the implications the origin would make on strategies addressing the current pandemic problem, i.e. in case we could know for sure the origin was this or that, how would it change our abilities to address our current problems? (sure preventing that in future is desirable, but what about it now being around everywhere anyhow)01:11
de-factofor example if we would know the natural host where it evolved to that point where it could easily infect humans, how would that change strategies in developing vaccines or medications?01:12
de-factoor assuming it was already studied in a lab prior to the outbreak (however it came to that), what knowledge could they possible have acquired by then which we still don't know yet despite all the research done on it?01:15
de-factowhat kind of missing pieces of information could be associated with the origin of it that may help us now with it being around everywhere?01:17
de-factoif we knew some of the answers to those questions it may help us with targeting research into such directions that may have higher chances for success (e.g. antiviral therapy or stable vaccines etc), but maybe we are already on the right track with all those international research collaborations?01:19
LjLde-facto, ubLIX[m] there are intermediate scenarios between "engineered" and just "got it from a bat then whoops, leaked". In those labs viruses get put under artificial selection, so it's possible that a bat virus that would never on its own have been successful in human was selected to become successful, of course it doesn't have to be for nefarious purposes, it could simply be for the purpose of studying treatments and vaccines against this type of things. 01:20
LjLNow I don't know how it helps with the current pandemic, but I'm convinced it's important to figure it out and have a comprehensive debate over the pros and cons of these labs01:20
de-factoyeah kinda like "smart breeding" scenarios with "natural origin" 01:21
LjLYes, we're busy with the current pandemic... But apparently we're not busy enough for capitol stormings, impeachments, change of government and drama (in Italy)... :P01:21
LjLYes01:21
ubLIX[m]if accident: the study of accidents is essential to the prevention of accidents01:22
de-factowell why not, but then again, assuming for a moment it originated from "smart breeding" what can we learn from that?01:22
de-factoyes of course if it was an accident it should absolutely prevented in the future, but for SARS-CoV-2 its already too late now with it being in every last corner of the world01:23
de-factobtw that is one of the reasons i always was saying it would be a good idea to look very closely on how China addresses the virus outbreaks in their own cities (assuming the remote possibility they might have learned things from their CoV labs that is not public knowledge yet), but now one year later i doubt any lab would possibly be able to have such a super big advantage in knowledge anymore, yet government strategies have quite a large 01:31
de-factovariety of approaches still (despite better knowledge from experts) in both approaches and success with controlling it01:31
LjLde-facto, maybe if it originated from "smart breeding", knowing more details about that would let us know how amenable the virus is to selective pressure01:34
LjLand just how it changes under it, and how often01:34
LjLwe did have some surprises with the UK and SA variants, didn't we?01:34
LjLas in, not just that we had mutations (we kind of expected them), but that they were at a rate we were *not* expecting from prior experience01:35
LjL18<25Brainstorm18> New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Moderna CEO says the world will have to live with Covid 'forever' → https://is.gd/YxSrks01:36
de-factoyes and imho it should be researched in biolabs now, exactly that smart breeding under selection pressure from antibodies to study its behavior and maybe "foresee" such escape mutants to integrate them into polyclonal vaccinations prior to them emerging in the wild01:36
de-factoLjL, i think the mutation rate is unchanged (and much higher as what we see in those successful variants from sequences)01:37
LjLi'm confused01:39
LjLi'm not really sure anymore what the things i read were consudering as unexpected01:39
LjLbut i'm sure there was something being considered unexpected, i think including on one of your virological links...01:39
de-factomost randomly occurring mutations are just a fail, they introduce some error and end replication because they lead to an unfit variant, some mutations may lead to a variant that may have some disadvantage under current circumstances (replication in mostly immunologic naive hosts) hence also never appear on our sequence radar because other types are more successful and take over the quasi-species population in a host, hence also have a much 01:39
de-factohigher probability to be spread by that host then01:39
de-factobut now what happens if those circumstances change and more and more hosts have some sort of (partial) immunity? maybe a variant that previously did have a disadvantage now got an evasive capability hence an advantage relative to its non-mutated ancestors hence takes over the majority of mutation in such hosts and also appear on our sequencing radar because its a new variant emerging under the selection pressure of now changed circumstances01:42
de-factocompared to the mutation rate that was seen in the sequences that evolved under more or less unchanged circumstances the new variant emerging may look like it made some sort of jump in mutation rate, but maybe it just means the circumstances changed (or reached some kind of threshold) hence selecting other variants (with partial evasive capabilities or such)01:44
de-factothis especially will be the case if it is allowed to do many replication cycles under selection pressure, hence increase the probability of a randomly occuring mutation to just hit the right spot and find such an escaping mutant01:45
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: COVID-19 infection gives some immunity for at least five months, UK study finds → https://is.gd/do9NFa01:48
de-factoWould such an escaping mutant really transmit faster in a population that is completely naive without antibodies? maybe, but only if it optimized for more efficient replication in general at the same time (independent of immunologic pressure)01:49
de-factoWould it spread faster in a population that got some partial immunity? Probably because that is its advantage of being able to partially escape the pressure from immune reaction raised against a previous variant01:50
de-factowhat we see now might be a combination of both effects, some mutations being selected for their partial escaping capabilities, other mutations being selected for making some part of the replication cycle more efficient01:51
de-factowhat i am curious about is if it is possible to do the opposite, create a variant of SARS-CoV-2 with a very significant deficit, basically attenuating it to a point where it is so harmless to the human immune system that it never comes to severe infections01:53
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: Interim Results of a Phase 1–2a Trial of Ad26.COV2.S Covid-19 Vaccine (80 votes) | https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2034201 | https://redd.it/kwrfik01:53
de-factomaybe introduce a stop codon into some of the NonStructuralProteins (NSP-X) and look at those in a lab in cell cultures01:53
de-factooh thats the Janssen vaccine, that will be interesting ^^01:54
de-factothat CoronaBot link01:55
LjLugh they're still at interim of phase 1/2?01:55
de-factoafaik they are the next to be expected on the horizon after AZ/OX01:57
de-facto%vax Janssen01:57
Brainstormde-facto, Ad26 alone or with MVA boost is a Non-replicating viral vector vaccine developed in Belgium + USA by Janssen (Johnson & Johnson) + Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center (Harvard Medical School) + Emergent BioSolutions + Catalent, which began its testing on humans on date Aug 11 with 91845 participants → https://covidvax.org/covid19-vaccine/Janssen01:57
de-factothey have phase III runningn01:58
de-factohuh i thought the would go with single dose02:00
de-facto"Longer-term data comparing a single-dose regimen with a two-dose regimen are being collected in cohort 2; those results are not reported here."02:00
BrainstormUpdates for Canada: +7124 cases (now 682348), +143 deaths (now 17376) since 23 hours ago02:00
BrainstormNew from Ars Technica: Science: SpaceX hot fire tests its Starship vehicle three times in four hours → https://is.gd/oa3hK702:00
LjLde-facto, maybe they've seen that the single-dose is worse than AZ :(02:01
LjLde-facto, so they are running phase 3 at the same time as they have not completed phase 1/2?02:01
LjLthat must be hectic02:01
de-factoid guess they only got their publication ready yet, that does not meant they already got the results much earlier from their phase i/II02:03
LjLhmm02:05
LjLbut it's "interim"02:05
LjLde-facto, phase 2 is still recruiting: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04436276  https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04535453  and started kinda recently02:06
LjLonly a Japanese phase 1 (without 2) is closed https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT0450994702:07
de-factoage range 18-5502:07
de-factoin that paper02:07
de-factomostly white02:08
LjLuh, strange02:08
LjLin this study https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04535453 , the age requirements are "Participant is 18 to 55 years of age, inclusive, or 65 years of age or older on the day of signing the informed consent form (ICF)."02:08
LjLso, you're good as long as you're not 55 to 6502:08
de-factooh their cohort 1 is 18-55 their cohort 3 is 65-8802:10
de-factook that s good02:10
de-factoquite some Grade 3 side effects in the younger02:12
LjLyikes02:12
LjLi don't understand. i get that everything must run faster, but isn't phase 1/2 mainly to assess the safety?02:12
LjLso how can you be still recruiting for 1/2, releasing an "interim" paper, while also having phase 3 ongoing?02:12
LjLi thought the idea was making sure it's reasonably safe on a *small* cohort *before* giving it to thousands of people in phase 302:13
BrainstormNew from BBC Health: Covid-19: High Street chemists start vaccinations in England: Six chemists have been chosen initially, with 200 more offering vaccinations in the next fortnight. → https://is.gd/gjVXUW02:13
de-factoi thought phase 1/2 is for determining a proper dosing scheme and all that for phase 302:13
LjLchemists doing vaccinations... matches up with the recommendations from the FDA CDC and so on that vaccines should only be administered where you can handle an anaphylactic shock :\02:14
de-factofor safety you would need a much larger cohort02:14
de-factolike a phase III02:14
LjLde-facto, that would be phase 1, but phase 2 is primarily safety. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phases_of_clinical_research#Summary has a nice table02:15
LjLfor full detailed safety profile you need phase 302:15
LjLbut phase 2 will tell you if you've got something big and common, and you should not even think about having a phase 302:15
LjLto make it simple: if people start dying in phase 2, you better cancel your phse 302:16
de-factoyet still "No participant discontinued the trial because of an adverse event. "02:16
de-factoyeah safety is a several step plan to have as few as possible of the really nasty side effects02:17
de-factotheir Fig 2 is a very interesting graph https://www.nejm.org/na101/home/literatum/publisher/mms/journals/content/nejm/0/nejm.ahead-of-print/nejmoa2034201/20210112/images/img_xlarge/nejmoa2034201_f2.jpeg02:19
LjLi wonder how the grade 3 side effects compare to BNT, Moderna and AZ02:21
LjLiirc BNT and Moderna had their fair amount of grade 3 events02:21
LjLnot sure about AZ, probably less02:21
BrainstormUpdates for Germany: +23369 cases (now 2.0 million), +1201 deaths (now 44404) since 23 hours ago02:21
de-factoi wonder why they did not try two dose in their cohort 3 (elderly)02:21
LjLyour deaths are really always pretty high in relation to cases...02:21
LjLwell not "always", but since some time02:22
de-factowe currently got quite some excess mortality in Germany :(02:24
de-factonot good at all02:24
de-factobut if we are really lucky occupied ICU beds will continue to decline with a rate of >1% per day so that also would mean less fatalities (if there are less severe cases requiring ICU)02:25
de-factobtw another idea for a (maybe interesting) test: for those few cases that got those severe allergic reactions to vaccination, would it be possible to do an antibody test (e.g. ELISA against S-protein and N-protein)?02:27
de-factoi wonder if it really is an allergic reaction against the PEG of the lipids in the LNPs for the mRNA delivery or if it also possibly could be an allergic reaction to the S-protein itself (if it occurred later when that is already produced)02:28
de-factoor maybe to the mRNA as being recognized as something foreign (so those nucleotide modifications did not work for those possibly?)02:29
de-factowould be interesting to know more about that in order to improve such platforms (this is the chance to do that since its deployed on such a large level)02:30
de-factoCellular immunity from their fig 3 looks quite well it seems https://www.nejm.org/na101/home/literatum/publisher/mms/journals/content/nejm/0/nejm.ahead-of-print/nejmoa2034201/20210112/images/img_xlarge/nejmoa2034201_f3.jpeg02:32
de-factoclear emphasis on CD4+ and Th1 with low Th202:33
de-factowell almost noen02:33
de-factonone02:33
de-facto"After the second dose among participants between the ages of 18 and 55 years, the incidence of grade 3 solicited systemic adverse events was much lower than that after the first immunization in both the low-dose and high-dose groups, a finding that contrasts with observations with respect to messenger RNA–based vaccines, for which the second dose has been associated with increased reactogenicity."02:38
de-factothats an interesting statement there02:39
LjL"we are better! we are better! see it? we are better!"02:39
LjL"we suck, but in a different way, so we are better!"02:39
LjL:P02:39
de-facto.title https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2607-z?elqTrackId=4a779cff52a6429c991dcd18014ea74002:40
Brainstormde-facto: From www.nature.com: Single-shot Ad26 vaccine protects against SARS-CoV-2 in rhesus macaques | Nature02:40
de-facto"The optimal Ad26 vaccine induced robust neutralizing antibody responses and provided complete or near-complete protection in bronchoalveolar lavage and nasal swabs after SARS-CoV-2 challenge. "02:41
de-facto"Whether a second dose will provide additional benefit for either improved efficacy or durability in humans, especially in elderly persons in whom the immune response after the first dose tended to be modestly lower than that in younger participants, is currently being studied in a phase 3 clinical trial (ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT04614948. opens in new tab)."02:42
de-facto"A theoretical risk of vaccine-associated enhanced respiratory disease (VAERD)15-17 has been associated with poorly neutralizing humoral immunity and Th2-skewed cellular immune responses. In this trial, all elicited CD4+ T-cell responses to Ad26.COV2.S were Th1-skewed, in line with previous experience with the Ad26-based vaccine platform."02:43
de-facto"Data that further minimize the theoretical risk of VAERD are the accompanying consistent CD8+ T-cell responses (albeit occurring at lower levels in older adults than in younger adults) and strong humoral responses."02:43
de-factoid say looking good so far but those level 3 side effects we should keep an eye upon02:44
de-factoalso they included some seropositive02:45
de-facto"At baseline, the percentage of participants who were seropositive for SARS-CoV-2 S-specific antibodies was 2% in cohort 1a and 1% in cohort 3."02:45
de-facto"In cohort 1, solicited grade 3 systemic adverse events were reported in 15 low-dose recipients (9%) and in 32 high-dose recipients (20%); no placebo recipients reported such events"02:46
de-facto" In cohort 3, grade 3 solicited systemic adverse events were reported in 1 low-dose recipient (1%) and in 4 high-dose recipients (2%); no placebo recipients reported having such events."02:47
LjL"California allows everyone 65 and older to get COVID-19 vaccine"02:48
LjLde-facto, that's an unacceptable amount for cohort 102:49
LjLreally scary and unacceptable02:49
LjLgrade 3 means hospitalization02:49
LjLi won't get a vaccine that gives me between 10% and 20% of hospitalization02:49
gigasu_shidawhoa interesting ljl02:49
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Researchers Discover New Variant of COVID-19 Virus in Columbus, Ohio → https://is.gd/9Zccz202:49
de-factothats why i am saying we need to keep an eye on those side effects02:50
LjLi wouldn't just keep an eye... it's just... too much02:50
de-factolets wait for their phase III results02:51
LjLalso i assume the part where they wanted to do a single dose, that would be "high-dose"?02:52
de-factonot sure, did they publish a phase III design already?02:53
LjLde-facto, https://www.jnj.com/coronavirus/covid-19-phase-3-study-clinical-protocol02:55
LjLi think02:55
LjLOverall Rationale for the Amendment: The amendment is written to adjust the dose level for Ad26.COV2.S from 1×1011virus particles (vp) to 5×1010vp based on data from the first-in-human (FIH) study  VAC31518COV1001, including safety and immunogenicity  data from Cohort 1a, safety  data from Cohort 3  and immunogenicity data from the sentinel group of Cohort3.02:55
LjLso yeah it seems they also considered it unacceptable, and are using a lower dose in phase 302:55
LjLbut it's half, it's not like it's ten times less02:56
LjLso probably the same as the low-dose in the phase 1/202:56
de-factohmm yeah 9% is still too much imho02:57
de-factoare those Grades exactly the same in all trials? id guess their definition should ensure they are comparable right?02:57
LjL<LjL> from your phase 2: "... the Ad26.COV2.S vaccine at a dose of 5×1010 viral particles (low dose) or 1×1011 viral particles (high dose)"02:58
LjL<LjL> so yeah, they're using the "low dose" from their phase 202:58
LjLde-facto, i guess we can figure out what exactly these events were and decide for ourselves if they seem too scary02:58
LjLon paper, the definitions should make them comparable, but as everything that's a little arbitrary...02:58
LjLde-facto, based on figure 1, the adverse event with most hospitalization (grade 3) is pyrexia, i.e. fever03:00
LjLvery high fever is scary03:00
LjLbut also if you look at "high dose", there's almost more adverse events that are grade 3 than ones that are grade 1 or grade 2!03:00
LjLthat is... more than a little concerning03:01
de-factofever, fatigue, headache, myalgia a bit nausia03:01
LjLsubtract the ones from placebo03:01
LjL"a bit"? if it's grade 3 it's not a bit03:01
LjLreally if you subtract the placebo from "any systemic symptom", you are left with only grade 2 or 3 events03:01
LjLmaybe this vaccine can be usable for older people03:02
LjLassuming their grade 3 events don't become "death" too easily, which phase 3 would hopefully show03:02
de-factoa bit i mean relative to the freq of other grade 3 effects03:02
LjLyes i realized that later03:03
LjLsorry, sometimes when i think something is just... bad... i get flippant03:03
de-factoseems the BNT162b2 got less of those but interestingly indeed increasing with second dose (as they claimed above) https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa203457703:05
de-factoFig 203:05
de-facto"The frequency of any severe systemic event after the first dose was 0.9% or less. Severe systemic events were reported in less than 2% of vaccine recipients after either dose, except for fatigue (in 3.8%) and headache (in 2.0%) after the second dose."03:06
de-factoid assume over all age groups03:06
de-factoi really wonder if those are comparable definitions, they also got Grade 403:09
de-factoon their scale, they never observed them03:09
LjLde-facto, do they equate "severe" to "grade 3"?03:10
de-factoid assume so03:10
LjLde-facto, it's good that grade 4 (which they didn't get) entails temperature above 40°C03:10
LjLbelow 40°C, fever is generally not an immediate threat03:11
LjLalthough there was that story of a woman who had 41°C or so, called the trial people, and was just told to stay home and take paracetamol03:11
LjLbut... anecdote03:11
de-factoalso if it is expected it can be mediated with paracetamol or such afaik03:11
de-facto(not an expert here)03:11
de-factoyeah paracetamol03:12
de-factodidnt they also use that in AZ/OX03:12
LjLi find the BNT table less "readable" than the other one03:13
LjLthey used it in some of them, don't remember which03:13
LjLit's probably a good idea to just take it03:13
de-factoyup03:13
LjLparacetamol is a good painkiller and pretty innocuous (for most people) if you only take it occasionally03:13
de-factoit can be hepatotoxic at some doses03:14
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Africa secures 270m Covid-19 vaccine doses → https://is.gd/IKm7gX03:14
de-factoexpecially in combo with alc03:14
LjLde-facto, oh, they used paracetamol in *this* one03:15
LjLi'm  a bit confused03:15
LjLde-facto, it will be hepatotoxic if you either overdose badly, or take it for longer periods of time03:15
LjLin those cases it can be *very* hepatotoxic03:15
LjLbut take it in allowed doses for a couple of days and it tends to be fine03:15
de-factoyeah03:15
LjLsafer profile than aspirin afaik03:15
LjLbut i was saying, the wording and the table here confuse me03:16
LjLat first it says03:16
LjL"Severe systemic events were reported in less than 2% of vaccine recipients after either dose, except for fatigue (in 3.8%) and headache (in 2.0%) after the second dose."03:16
LjLokay, fine, so 4% at worst03:16
LjLbut then03:16
LjL"Fever (temperature, ≥38°C) was reported after the second dose by 16% of younger vaccine recipients and by 11% of older recipients."03:16
LjL16% or 11% at minimum?03:16
LjLbut then when i look at figure 2, the "Fever" bar is actually very small03:16
LjLbut the last (rightmost) bar shows that a lot of people used an antipyretic (so likely paracetamol)03:17
de-factoa bit above 38 is not that severe imho03:17
de-factodepends on how much above it really is03:17
LjLso uh... what do they mean with that "Fever" bar, that if it went back down with paracetamol, they did not consider it?03:18
de-factomore in younger than in older cohorts makes sense03:18
LjLyes but i'm just saying03:18
LjLthose 11% and 16% numbers just don't match up with the size of the bars in the chart03:18
LjLor do they03:18
LjLmaybe they do03:18
LjLjust fatigue and headaches are overwhelmingly common?03:19
LjL(when not severe)03:19
LjLwell, at this point though, i agree with the calls that came from a few doctors a while ago, that people should be made aware that in MOST cases, you will feel bad03:19
LjLit may not be a huge deal03:19
LjLbut people will get scared03:19
de-factoi dont understand your point with fever, they wrote even the percentage on the bar03:19
de-factoyeah id go for it anyhow03:20
LjLde-facto, yes you're right, i was just confused by the fact that the other bars were so much higher. i didn't expect to see like fatigue in 60% of recipients03:20
de-factoeven if i suspect that i get knocked out a day or two, well so be it, but then i can get rid of being scared about getting severe covid03:20
LjLde-facto, yes you'd go for it, and maybe most other people would go for it too, but think about it... if someone who doesn't know about these things, isn't in this channel, hasn't followed much, just gets told "take this vaccine, it'll be fine", then after the first dose, they have a bit of fever, a lot of fatigue, chills, headache... if they weren't warned of these things *clearly* in advance, will they come for the 2nd shot?03:21
de-factoi mean if i expect that i can plan for it in advance, go shopping and watch a good movie and chill03:21
LjLit's important IMO that people are told about those effects and reassured they are usually mild and temporary so that they know it's safe to get the 2nd shot03:22
de-factoyeah you surely have a point here and afaik it also was discussed iirc, like if ppl would go for 2nd shot03:22
de-factobtw in Germany they even get a legal information in advance agaik being told by a MD or such03:23
LjLwell, sure, in theory, they should. not sure if it will happen in practice, with the amount of vaccinations that will need to be given03:24
LjL"sign this paper, here, quick"03:25
de-factono i think they really are telling ppls some medical facts for them to make an informed decision, surely not every detail but id guess they tell them the main secured facts we know so far and ask some questions (e.g. about allergies etc)03:28
gigasu_shidai'm jealous of german healthcare03:28
de-factowell its super slow for now, we need to ramp up vaccination rates by orders of magnitude03:29
de-factoi think italy got already double as much of their population vaccinated03:29
LjLeven Lombardy is picking up some pace now03:30
LjLnot sure if because of the change in government03:30
LjLbut the whole of Italy might be getting a change in government now if Renzi isn't appeased, and that won't be great ;(03:31
de-factoVaccinations per 100 citizens03:31
de-factoIsrael: 23.00; United Arab Emirates: 14.10; Gibraltar: 7.42; Northern Ireland: 5.77; Bahrain: 5.75; England: 4.73; United Kingdom: 4.52; Scotland: 3.57; Wales: 3.22; United States: 3.11; Denmark: 2.04; Iceland: 1.43; Italy: 1.32; Spain: 1.24; Slovenia: 1.18; Canada: 1.03; Estonia: 1.02; Lithuania: 1.00; 03:31
de-factoGermany: 0.90; Hungary: 0.90; Croatia: 0.84; Poland: 0.82; Ireland: 0.81; Romania: 0.80; Sweden: 0.79; Slovakia: 0.72; Austria: 0.70; China: 0.69; Portugal: 0.69; Cyprus: 0.69; Greece: 0.62; Russia: 0.55; Latvia: 0.52; Saudi Arabia: 0.51; 03:31
de-factoNorway: 0.47; Belgium: 0.46; Finland: 0.42; Oman: 0.40; World: 0.38; Luxembourg: 0.38; France: 0.38; Argentina: 0.37; Malta: 0.32; Netherlands: 0.27; Bulgaria: 0.23; Costa Rica: 0.19; Czechia: 0.19; Serbia: 0.14; Singapore: 0.11; Mexico: 0.07; Chile: 0.06; Kuwait: 0.06; Guinea: 0.0003:32
LjLde-facto, don't get mad (you don't usually get mad) but could you make these lists into a pastbin instead of ending up with 3 IRC messages and really the numbers not well lined up?03:33
de-factosource https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations03:33
de-factoyeah i would not have to paste them here, i thought its more convenient to read them inside IRC and not having to launch a browser03:34
LjLwell, do what you prefer really. i'd prefer a pastebin but it's not a demand, if others think it's fine this way, then it's fine this way03:35
de-factoi surely dont want to bother anyone with it, its just meant as a good gesture, so please tell me if its not desired like that03:36
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Amid global Covid-19 vaccine rollout, can you travel to Dubai for the vaccine? Not yet → https://is.gd/SVtVBC03:38
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Pandemic in 2021 could be 'tougher' than the previous year, WHO warns → https://is.gd/DrmAYm04:03
LjL<CoronaBot> /r/coronavirus: J&J's one-shot Covid vaccine is safe and generates promising immune response in early trial (1003 votes)04:34
LjL<CoronaBot> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/13/covid-vaccine-johnson-johnson-one-shot-safe-generates-immune-response.html | https://redd.it/kwr44004:34
LjLde-facto, "is safe" seems a bit of an overstatement given the actual data...04:34
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: J&J vaccine on track for March rollout in US, target 1 billion doses this year → https://is.gd/y7E3rL04:39
de-factowell they say nobody resigned from the trial participation and there were some two dose schemes in there04:51
de-factotbh i have no idea what Grade 3 side effects mean04:51
de-factowhat exactly does it meant ot have Grade 3 fatigue or Grade 3 fever for example?04:52
LjLit means it's bad enough to be hospitalized, i don't have a better understanding than that04:53
LjLexcept for fever, apparently, they put it at between 39 and 40, above 40 it's grade 404:53
de-factosome google result on that https://i-base.info/guides/side/how-side-effects-are-graded04:54
de-factoGRADE 3 (Severe): Your daily activity is markedly reduced – some assistance usually required; medical intervention/therapy required, hospitalisation or hospice care possible.04:55
de-factofor fatigue they say "Normal activity reduced by over 50% – cannot work"04:56
de-factothat does not sound too bad imho (at least for fatigue)04:56
de-factoNausia "Severe discomfort or minimal food intake for more than 3 days"04:57
de-factoidk maybe its not that bad after all id go for it (but hey maybe im wrong about that)04:58
de-factois there even an official definition for those05:00
de-factoi hate such in-exact metrics05:00
de-factoFDA slides say "Grade 3 Severe or medically significant but not immediately lifethreatening; hospitalization or prolongation of hospitalization indicated; disabling; limiting self care ADL"05:01
de-factohttps://www.fda.gov/media/84954/download05:02
de-factoidk its all bla bla05:05
de-factoask someone who got it05:05
de-factoi think if they say all participants continued in their trial and there were two dosing schemes with both low and high doses it means there were severe side effects and participants still going for the second dose05:08
de-factoso to me that means it was severely influencing them for a moment but later on they obviously thought they could go for it again05:09
de-factoso probably not *that* bad but still quite something to expect as you said05:09
BrainstormNew from BBC Health: Covid-19: High Street chemists start vaccinations in England: Six chemists have been chosen initially, with 200 more offering vaccinations in the next fortnight. → https://is.gd/gjVXUW05:16
IndoAnonI wonder whether they have different grading for """vaccines"""05:26
IndoAnonlike unsafe, somewhat unsafe, so-so, safe, really safe05:27
LjLnot sure why "vaccines" deserve scarequotes05:30
IndoAnonBecause it may or may not serve its intended purpose? 05:32
IndoAnonBecause the image told by propaganda-disguised-as-ads is different with pessimistic attitudes of pharma execs.. ..05:36
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Don't rush the Covid-19 vaccine rollout, WHO warns New Zealand → https://is.gd/gqcCJ005:40
de-factothey did make those relative categories for their side effects, and it seems there is some sort of definition for that, but to me it sounds a bit inexact and depending on the personal judgment (but maybe i am completely wrong about that)05:42
de-factothat makes me question how comparable those are between studies, e.g. Pfizer/BioNTech with Janssen or AstraZeneca, do they really use exactly the same scales for estimating the Grade of their adverse effects?05:43
de-factomaybe they do and i just dont know about that05:43
de-factois it controlled somehow by an employee of EMA/FDA etc?05:44
de-factoor would they have to fill in how they feel?05:44
de-factowhat does not fit together for me is: if 1 in 10 participants for low dose and 1 in 5 for high dose got a severe side effect (what that is by their definition), why would they go for second dose then (expecting to experience more or less the same reaction)?05:46
LjLbecause they get money for being in the trial? i don't know if these trials are paid05:47
de-factoi dont know either but i am a bit skeptical about those "severe" side effects because of that, if people would fear for severe impacts on their health they would not go for a second shot, if "severe" means they are somewhat incapacitated for a limited amount of time and have to stay at home but expecting that going for a second shot it probably is somewhat ok then i guess?05:49
IndoAnonWhy is it so uneasy for people to get real data? Can't they make a 1 to 10 scale? I mean, the Apple Mac book got 7/10 in repair scale by Europe agency, which is BS as said by Louis rossman... But, at least they're trying to get the info into public05:50
LjLif it means hospitalization, it's not tenable to have 10% or 20% of the people who get the vaccine hospitalized05:50
LjLyou get, like, more hospitalizations than COVID itself!05:50
IndoAnonkek05:50
LjLwhich is what someone at some point came here to claim05:50
LjLIndoAnon, well they have a 1 to 5 scale05:50
IndoAnonoo05:51
LjLit is not objective, because side effect evaluation is not objective05:51
LjLin medicine many things have to be evaluated subjectively05:51
IndoAnonugh05:51
LjLyeah it is not ideal but we're made of flesh, not microchips05:51
LjLcan't get a body's MIPS05:51
de-factoyeah but from that i read about those Grade 3 side effects they dont mean hospitalization but making you somewhat unable to follow your normal daily activity up to requiring assistance or even hospitalization (but thats probably the threshold or transition to Grade 4 then with life threatening)05:51
LjLyou can ask the body's owner if they feel decent, though05:52
IndoAnonI get it. cancer medication might created nasty side effects, yes05:52
LjLand they'll answer subjectively, and your semi-objective scale will include things like "do they have to be hospitalized?", but nonetheless will remain partly subjective05:52
de-factofor things like fever its easy, they just define the temp05:52
de-factobut fatigue or headache? its really hard to make an objective metric hence their inexact "severe" "moderate" etc by how it restricts your activity05:53
de-factoits more or less meh imho05:53
IndoAnonLike what you said earlier, if it's creating more hospitalization than corona; objectively , it's counterproductive to intended goals of reducing hospital load05:54
de-factobut i also dont really have a suggestion on how to make it better05:54
de-factoi doubt that its creating more hospitalizations than COVID05:54
LjLit's not, because it's not approved05:54
LjLbut if it remains the case that severe events happen in 10% to 20% of cases, then that's just far from acceptable IMO, no matter how you turn it05:55
IndoAnonThey should make it better... However, there's no incentives to do so, as they're able to cashing in with current formulas 05:55
LjLand if other vaccines are a lot lower than that, then those vaccines should be focused on05:55
LjLwe don't necessarily need to have two dozens vaccines05:55
LjLif a few work better and with fewer side effects, let's focus on the few05:56
de-factoyeah, but still even those 1-2% for BNT162b2 they dont all end up in hospital, maybe they end up on the phone calling their boss they stay at home and watching netflix?05:56
LjLi know if i have 39°C fever i won't be watching netflix05:56
de-factosome of them might need some assistance though id assume, for example those rare cases of allergies or such05:56
IndoAnon39°C on 1:100 basis is bad05:57
de-factoi somehow get the suspicion that those "severe" side effects may be quite some spectrum, maybe ranging from being incapacitated not going to work and staying at home to really requiring some medical assistance or temporarily having to stay at hospitals?05:58
de-factoand how they are distributed inside that severe cohort is not really visible by those numbers05:58
IndoAnonThis fragmented information actually carried consequences, shaping policy made by clinics and gov officials 05:59
de-factobut maybe i am completely wrong about that, i think i will ask a friend studying medicine she should known that05:59
LjLi don't share the suspicion. the people running these trials want them to look good, not bad, so if they class an event as "severe", which just below "life-threatening" in the scale, my assumption is it's severe05:59
de-factoit also depends on the side effect itself, maybe severe fatigue is not comparable to severe headache or fever or nausia06:02
de-factolike different level of incapacitate affected people06:02
de-factobut you are corrent, one should not speculate about that, i just wonder how comparable those studies in terms of those sideeffects06:04
BrainstormUpdates for Belgium: +2927 cases (now 670249), +56 deaths (now 20250) since 22 hours ago06:04
de-facto*i just wonder how comparable those studies are (in terms of those adverse effects)06:04
LjLWell, goodnight (morning?) for now06:05
de-factogn8 :)06:06
IndoAnonok06:06
IndoAnon>In other news, India wil require/suggest all vaccine 'beneficiaries' to stay at the site, waiting rooms, etc under observation for an hour after getting vaccinated. To make sure any side effects are caught quickly. Which is good, but all the people staying in a coofroom for an hour.06:16
IndoAnon>Asymptomatic transmission.06:16
BrainstormNew from This Week In Virology: TWiV 706: Do as Dr. Fauci says: TWiV answers listener questions about pandemic response, excess deaths in 25-44 year olds, vaccines, vaccines, and vaccines. → https://is.gd/jRAS5s06:17
CoronaBot04/r/coronavirus: California allows everyone 65 and older to get COVID-19 vaccine (10183 votes) | https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-01-13/california-opens-covid-vaccine-eligibility-people-over-65 | https://redd.it/kwpguf06:31
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Venezuela registers Russia's Sputnik V vaccine: vaccine developers. → https://is.gd/HLAr2L06:41
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: China reports most new COVID-19 cases in more than 10 months → https://is.gd/McSihZ07:05
BrainstormUpdates for Murcia, Spain: +6969 cases (now 70880), +8 deaths (now 790) since 23 hours ago — Sicily, Italy: +1969 cases (now 113524), +36 deaths (now 2841) since 23 hours ago — Nebraska, United States: +1529 cases (now 179199) since 23 hours ago — Honduras: +1204 cases (now 131009), +26 deaths (now 3320) since a day ago07:06
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: US surpasses 10 million COVID-19 vaccinations nationwide → https://is.gd/Jxcppn07:17
gigasu_shidaapa kabar IndoAnon 07:24
IndoAnonBaik2 aj07:24
gigasu_shidaokie ganteng07:27
jacklswmasih selamat dari covid07:28
jacklswwkwk07:28
IndoAnontetapi07:29
IndoAnon>Celebrated Indonesian cleric Syekh Ali Jaber passes away99,9907:29
jacklswoh sorry to hear that07:29
gigasu_shidaaww07:29
jacklswand last week you got plane crash07:29
jacklswgot to sue boeing07:29
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: Gut microbiota composition reflects disease severity and dysfunctional immune responses in patients with COVID-19 (83 votes) | https://gut.bmj.com/content/early/2021/01/04/gutjnl-2020-323020 | https://redd.it/kwxpox07:32
IndoAnonon air, the plane was called 'classic', instead of old07:32
IndoAnon(live tv)07:33
gigasu_shidahmm old ass plane07:34
IndoAnonhaha07:34
gigasu_shidabaca dahulu07:34
gigasu_shidasiapa dah nih orang 07:34
gigasu_shidajacklsw kamu orang indo?07:35
jacklswgigasu_shida: orang malaysia07:35
gigasu_shidaoh07:35
jacklswmasih boleh faham sikit indo07:35
jacklswhaha07:35
gigasu_shidawaduh newbie saya sifu07:36
IndoAnonjacklsw: https://archive.vn/jYVMc https://archive.vn/sus8t08:38
IndoAnon%title08:38
BrainstormIndoAnon: From archive.vn: Sultan HB X Pastikan Tidak Ada Sanksi Bagi Penolak Vaksin Covid-19 di DIY08:38
IndoAnongigasu_shida: ^08:39
BrainstormNew from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | January 14, 2021: The WHO pages contain up-to-date and global information. Please refer to our Wiki for additional information. → https://is.gd/kxBJF609:06
DocScrutinizer05moin09:30
zutthallo09:31
zutt%cases sweden09:31
Brainstormzutt: In Sweden, there have been 512203 confirmed cases (5.0% of the population) and 9834 deaths (1.9% of cases) as of 18 hours ago. 4.7 million tests were performed (10.9% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Sweden for time series data.09:31
DocScrutinizer05in 2 minutes news from "the horse's mouth" RKI Wieler Press Conference09:59
DocScrutinizer05new sad record: 1288 †10:00
DocScrutinizer05sorry 124410:09
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Mexico to use trade deal to make sure workers get vaccine → https://is.gd/MfSFHy10:19
DocScrutinizer05%cases germany10:23
BrainstormDocScrutinizer05: In Germany, there have been 2.0 million confirmed cases (2.4% of the population) and 44404 deaths (2.2% of cases) as of 8 hours ago. 36.4 million tests were performed (5.4% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.0% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 2.7% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Germany for time series data.10:23
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: China logs first virus death in 8 months as WHO huddles on new strains: China recorded its first COVID-19 death in eight months on Thursday, as experts huddled to discuss worrying new strains of the coronavirus that are spreading rapidly around the globe. → https://is.gd/MiBzwJ10:32
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Politics: Amid last minute changes and funding shortfalls, Biden adviser predicts a slow start to the ‘100 million vaccines in 100 days’ goal → https://is.gd/EqDj2c10:44
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Opinion: With Covid-19, ‘vaccine nationalism’ is a worrisome trend: The new side of vaccine nationalism, prioritizing political advantage over scientific evidence, threatens to undermine scientific and ethical principles that provide the foundation of vaccine development. → https://is.gd/Pufu8j10:56
BrainstormUpdates for Indonesia: +11557 cases (now 869600), +295 deaths (now 25246) since a day ago11:08
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Opinion: Businesses across the supply chain must work together to make Covid-19 vaccines: Many companies would like to help produce doses of Covid-19 vaccines by breaking production bottlenecks with their technologies, facilities, and staff. But for now they can only stand by because… → https://is.gd/fWI5RC11:08
gigasu_shidagracias IndoAnon 11:17
BrainstormNew from NPR: U.S. Continues To Lag In COVID-19 Workplace Safety, Former OSHA Official Says: Ten months into the pandemic, the Trump administration is  neglecting safety at meatpacking plants and other workplaces, a former top federal official says. → https://is.gd/TWyHcg11:20
BrainstormNew from ProPublica: “No One Took Us Seriously”: Black Cops Warned About Racist Capitol Police Officers for Years: by Joshua Kaplan and Joaquin Sapien ProPublica is a nonprofit newsroom that investigates abuses of power. Sign up to receive our biggest stories as soon as they’re published. When Kim Dine took over as the new chief of the U.S. [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/BX8muA12:10
BrainstormUpdates for Malaysia: +3337 cases (now 147855), +15 deaths (now 578) since a day ago12:16
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: China reports first Covid death in more than six months as WHO investigators arrive → https://is.gd/bcaPRr12:22
DocScrutinizer05haha  >>[Biden] should go further and create a coordinating council of relevant companies working together for the public good, as well as explicitly state that deep coordination among industry players **won’t trigger antitrust investigations**<<  ["Businesses across the supply chain must work together..." https://is.gd/fWI5RC]12:33
BrainstormNew from Scientific American: Should We Change COVID Vaccine Doses to Reach More People? What the Data Say: A nurse opens a box containing vials of the the Pfizer-BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine, stored in a refrigerator at the Wolfson medical center in Holon, Israel, on Saturday, Dec. 19, 2020. → https://is.gd/GHlFL112:58
BrainstormNew from WHO Euro: A tipping-point in the course of the pandemic: We were prepared for a challenging start to 2021 and it has been just that. One year from WHO’s first news report about this virus, we have new tools at our disposal and considerably more knowledge, but we remain in the grip of COVID-19, as cases surge and we tackle new challenges [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/H87DZp13:35
BrainstormUpdates for UAE: +3382 cases (now 242969), +3 deaths (now 726) since a day ago — Germany: +24171 cases (now 2.0 million) since 23 hours ago14:20
BrainstormNew from NPR: COVID-19 Origin Study: WHO Team Arrives In Wuhan To Investigate: Their arrival comes more than a week after an unexpected delay prevented the scientists from entering China. → https://is.gd/6S1VkM14:24
DocScrutinizer05new from $MyMind: how do we fight exponential growth in second wave infodemic14:26
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express (Health): Lifestyle: Instagram influencers are a vaccine priority in wary Indonesia → https://is.gd/zY7JYw14:48
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: France braces for new Covid curbs but set to avoid lockdown: The French government is expected Thursday to announce new restrictions to stave off a rise in coronavirus cases but unlike some of its neighbours a full lockdown appears off the agenda for now. → https://is.gd/k1ODrW15:01
BrainstormUpdates for Comoros: +172 cases (now 1341), +12 deaths (now 33) since 20 hours ago — Switzerland: +2474 cases (now 492832) since 23 hours ago15:10
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: COVID-19 vaccine recommended for all Americans over 65: On Tuesday, the Trump administration announced it would recommend a COVID-19 vaccine for every American older than 65 years, as it tries to speed up the nation's vaccine rollout. → https://is.gd/1bORcN15:13
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Pharma: STAT+: Pharmalittle: J&J Covid-19 vaccine data show some immunity after one dose; Biden may tap Sharfstein to run the FDA → https://is.gd/WQTHCm15:25
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: Past COVID-19 infection provides some immunity but people may still carry and transmit virus (87 votes) | https://www.gov.uk/government/news/past-covid-19-infection-provides-some-immunity-but-people-may-still-carry-and-transmit-virus | https://redd.it/kx3de115:35
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: How worried should you be about the new coronavirus variant?: A mutated version of the novel coronavirus has been making the news for being more contagious. First detected in the United Kingdom in September, the variant now has been detected in several U.S. states, including California. The fast spread of the new variant has [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/azzH2R15:38
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: In the rush for coronavirus information, unreviewed scientific papers are being publicized: COVID-19 has not only upended our personal lives, it has dramatically changed scientific research. In response to the rapid spread of the virus, scientists around the world have had to find new ways to collaborate and solve problems, all [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/KYaNGN15:50
BrainstormNew from EMA: What's new: General: Coronavirus disease (COVID-19) → https://is.gd/XNDstl16:02
BrainstormNew from EMA: What's new: General: Treatments and vaccines for COVID-19 → https://is.gd/wI8PHs16:15
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Vaccination: The Oxford vaccine has unique advantages, as does Pfizer's—using both is Australia's best strategy → https://is.gd/kC3Nps16:27
BrainstormNew from BBC Health: Covid-19: North-east England leads race to vaccinate over-80s: More than 45% of this priority group has now been vaccinated, compared with about 30% in London. → https://is.gd/KYtzkg16:52
BrainstormUpdates for Netherlands: +4221 cases (now 895549), +100 deaths (now 12778) since 22 hours ago — Canada: +5273 cases (now 684064), +112 deaths (now 17411) since 22 hours ago17:02
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Study shows sharp decline in cancer screenings, diagnoses during the first COVID-19 surge: In one of the first studies to examine the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on cancer diagnoses, researchers at Dana-Farber/Brigham and Women's Cancer Center document a substantial decline in cancer and precancer diagnoses at the [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/7CgrR217:04
BrainstormNew from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Nasopharynx Microbiota Component and in Vitro Cytokines Production in Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) → https://is.gd/dOf3Bt17:17
BrainstormUpdates for Portugal: +10698 cases (now 517806), +148 deaths (now 8384) since a day ago17:33
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: Dismantling myths on the airborne transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) (80 votes) | https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/S0195-6701(21)00007-4/fulltext | https://redd.it/kx0ytp17:48
BrainstormNew from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Study to Evaluate the Effects of AT-527 in Non-Hospitalized Adult Patients With Mild or Moderate COVID-19 → https://is.gd/qC6PXU17:54
BrainstormUpdates for Malawi: +591 cases (now 9991), +21 deaths (now 275) since 23 hours ago17:57
BrainstormNew from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Nasopharynx Microbiota Component and in Vitro Cytokines Production in Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) → https://is.gd/dOf3Bt18:06
de-factoRKI COVID-19 Germany 2021-01-14: Weekly Incidence 151.2/100k, Infections +25164 (1978590 total), Fatalities +1244 (43881 total), COVID@ICU 5101 (incl. 2944 on ventilator)18:12
BrainstormUpdates for Italy: +17243 cases (now 2.3 million), +522 deaths (now 80848) since 21 hours ago18:16
DocScrutinizer05hah  https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/action/showFullTableHTML?isHtml=true&tableId=tbl1&pii=S0195-6701%2821%2900007-418:18
mjensen[m]It's funny 'cause it's true.18:24
BrainstormNew from In The Pipeline: Johnson and Johnson, SinoVac and More: We have some more data on the vaccine front that’s worth looking at. J&J has published a bit more on their trials of their adenovirus-vector candidate, with data on the immunogenicity of the vaccine in patients. They have several cohorts evaluated: a single shot of low dose, single shot [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/jfffme18:31
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Vaccines alone aren't enough to eradicate a virus—lessons from history: Smallpox killed countless millions—300 million people in the 20th century alone—before it was finally declared eradicated on May 8 1980. It was a momentous day, marking what the current director general of the World Health Organization, Dr. Tedros [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/sHqjlG18:43
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: One year since we first reported on this coronavirus—what we've learned, and still need to know: A year ago, I wrote an article for The Conversation about a mysterious outbreak of pneumonia in the Chinese city of Wuhan, which transpired to be the start of the COVID-19 pandemic. At the time of writing, very little was known [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/O9QvYA18:55
LjLDocScrutinizer05, heh, i'd almost add the paper as a FAQ of sorts to my page, but outside of that particular table it's probably quite a read19:03
LjLbut the "myths" structure is also amenable to slapping on the face of people19:03
BrainstormNew from Ars Technica: Science: China tosses more obstacles at WHO team investigating pandemic’s origin → https://is.gd/ek7sGp19:08
LjL"There is little, if any, direct evidence for transmission of SARS-CoV-2 via any specific pathway. This statement applies to fomites and direct contact just as much as for large droplets and smaller airborne particles. It is notable that transmission through large droplets has never been directly demonstrated for any respiratory virus infection."19:09
de-factoinfection clusters are a strong hint for airborne infection imho19:11
de-factowell maybe even the only transmission path in some scenarios where all other paths were more or less ruled out, e.g. those choir clusters or such19:12
LjLde-facto, i think this paper is overall endorsing airborne infection... the thing it's saying about lack of evidence is more like, "stop wanting perfect evidence for any means of transmission before you consider it plausible, because that sort of evidence is basically unobtainable"19:18
de-factohuman challenge trials are considered unethical, but there have been trials with human models, afaik mink and golden hamster where they produced hard evidence for airborne transmission (absolutely excluded every other transmission path between separated cages)19:31
DocScrutinizer05LjL: yeah :-D19:35
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: The great polio vaccine mess and the lessons it holds about federal coordination for today's COVID-19 vaccination effort: I nervously fell into a long line of fellow first graders in the gymnasium of St. Louis' Hamilton Elementary School in the spring of 1955. We were waiting for our first injection of the new polio vaccine. → https://is.gd/caWuTA19:44
BrainstormUpdates for Canada: +6347 cases (now 685852), +120 deaths (now 17460) since 22 hours ago19:49
IndoAnonwtf, soo many earthquake 19:54
LjLactually it's the same one19:56
LjLbut when an earthquake is pretty big, the bot crashes19:56
LjLwhen it restarts itself, it gets the report again, and posts it again19:56
LjLbecause my code is wonderful19:56
BrainstormNew from Emma Hodcroft: @firefoxx66: Before #SARSCoV2 I studied EV-D68 (& will return 1 day!), 1 of the viruses that's almost disappeared in 2020. Since 2014 the West had outbreaks every 2 winters. I'm fascinated to see what impact this has in EV-D68 cycles, diversity, & immunity. There'll be a lot to learn! → https://is.gd/Zrz6Ra19:57
CoronaBot04/r/coronavirus: America is tuning out the coronavirus at the peak of its destruction (10257 votes) | https://www.axios.com/america-coronavirus-cases-infections-crisis-death-327ebfe7-42e4-42cd-b7e6-1b5e47ad6555.html | https://redd.it/kx47n820:07
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: German agency slams too many 'exceptions' to virus rules: Germany's Robert Koch Institute (RKI) health agency on Thursday called for stronger measures to bring down coronavirus infections, noting many people not doing enough to reduce social contacts. → https://is.gd/rV21CL20:09
de-factobtw today we got a new record in COVID-19 fatalities in Germany, there never died more than 1244 of SARS-CoV-2 infection per day20:16
de-facto.title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh49tWwMcjs "RKI-Briefing zur aktuellen Corona-Lage" <-- todays Briefing of RKI in German language20:17
Brainstormde-facto: From www.youtube.com: RKI-Briefing zur aktuellen Corona-Lage - YouTube20:17
DocScrutinizer05de-facto: yeah, noticed and mentioned it this morning already. Sad20:18
DocScrutinizer05meanwhile I'm suffering from that damn curfew once more. Didn't get around to doing shopping yet20:19
de-factounfortunately we need much stronger contact reduction to even have the slightest chance to get it under control one day20:21
de-factowhy cant people reduce contacts?20:21
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Sweden passes 10,000 virus deaths: Sweden on Thursday said it had passed 10,000 deaths associated with COVID-19, as it reported a record number of 351 deaths in a day. → https://is.gd/yQdFe620:21
de-factomaybe we really need a 24/7 curfew enforced by police with help of the military on the streets20:23
de-factoif people just dont follow the rules they need to be enforced20:23
de-factoi also absolutely dont understand why airtraveling is not completely illegal20:26
de-factowhy cant people not reduce their mobility significantly?20:35
de-factohttps://www.covid-19-mobility.org/current-mobility/20:35
de-facto.title20:36
Brainstormde-facto: From www.covid-19-mobility.org: Current mobility · Covid-19 Mobility Project20:36
de-factomy mobility radius is mostly less than 1km and never went over 5km in 202020:40
BrainstormNew from NPR: Israel To Start Vaccinating Palestinian Prisoners Next Week: Israel will start vaccinating Palestinian prisoners on Monday or Tuesday, Health Minister Yuli Edelstein tells NPR. Thirty prisoners tested positive for the coronavirus in one prison on Thursday. → https://is.gd/uRTYer20:46
de-factoi think traveling should be illegal and that meeting other people should be illegal too20:46
ubLIX[m]everyone is having a their own, different lock down20:49
ubLIX[m]who among us is equipped for indefinite solitary confinement20:49
de-factotbh i get angry at those people that sabotage the success of common effort to contain the transmission dynamics by not participating strictly enough, i restrict my contacts as good as i can and i expect everyone else to do the same20:52
de-factoi think we have a limited window of time where people may be willing to participate, if rules are not enforced absolutely strictly pandemic fatigue and frustration about lack of cohesion may take over at some point in time and then we have lost any hope to regain control over the transmission20:55
de-factomaybe we should have fines that really hurt, 2-3 months worth of income for not sticking to the rules?20:56
de-factoalso i think we should make it mandatory to base rules on scientific evidence that is published for everyone to read20:59
de-factoif people understand the statistic and data behind decisions they may be more willing to implement the principle behind a rule rather than searching for exceptions to it21:00
de-factoHead of RKI just said they found 16 cases with UK variant B.1.1.7 in sequences, 15 of them with direct link to traveling from UK, 1 new today where origin still has to be determined21:02
de-facto4 sequences with the SA variant also imported via traveling 21:02
de-facto200-250 sequences in whole of Dec LOL21:16
de-factothats two orders of magnitude too few21:16
de-factowe really really need more sequencing, especially now with vaccinations ramping up21:18
DocScrutinizer05re21:22
DocScrutinizer05/mobility radius)) I guess it's absolutely irrelevant as long as you have absolutely no contacts21:24
DocScrutinizer05just been shopping. A NIGHTMARE! people *pushing* me while standing queue at cashier21:26
DocScrutinizer053 *policemen* walking along almost arm in arm with no mask at all21:26
DocScrutinizer05inside shop sure enough I seen 2 other persons NOT wearing any mask21:27
DocScrutinizer05prolly there been more. The ones pushing were mostly employees and *security*21:28
de-factomaybe every working place should be forced to implement home office whereever possible and if not having to get certified a complete concept by a company doctor being held responsible for enforcing them to implement such concepts. disobedience should cost fines that really hurt both individual people and also companies21:29
DocScrutinizer05>><de-facto> i think we have a limited window ... [...] ... they may be more willing to implement the principle behind a rule rather than searching for exceptions to it<< so with you, I cam't tell how much21:31
DocScrutinizer05also full ack to last one21:32
BrainstormNew from Emma Hodcroft: @firefoxx66: Why are we seeing these variants now? Trevor has a great thread outlining some ideas.Further, in populations where large proportions have been infected with #SARSCoV2, we may also expect slightly different selection pressures to be operating. → https://is.gd/7rd4nC21:35
de-facto.title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abZUcqbY7nY "Presse-Briefing Paul-Ehrlich-Institut: Wirksamkeit & Sicherheit von mRNA-Impfstoffen gegen COVID-19" <-- Press Briefing of PEI today in German language21:40
Brainstormde-facto: From www.youtube.com: Presse-Briefing Paul-Ehrlich-Institut: Wirksamkeit & Sicherheit von mRNA-Impfstoffen gegen COVID-19 - YouTube21:40
DocScrutinizer05I just sent a comment to a friend >>there's *no* - except exactly one - side effects from mRNA vax that are unique to vax and not expected to see (even worse) on covid infection as well. So you get those side effects no matter what. The one exception is allergic reaction within a 60 minutes after shot<<21:47
DocScrutinizer05her reply >>well, lets see. My mother recovering from covid, at 35 whatever now<<  Same girl on 21th of Dec told me she just came from doc for a PCR so she may visit her mother on xmess, 25th she will spend with friends' family A. 26th with B. and then she stays with her mother again21:50
DocScrutinizer05I didn't reply21:50
DocScrutinizer05she's convinced she _completely_ understood what'S relevant for her and she doesn't give a shit about the rest regarding covid and NPI21:51
DocScrutinizer05like LjL said: if I would select my friends by compatibility of their risk assessment to mine, I'd have even fewer friends than now. Wait, that'S hardly possible21:53
de-factocontacts have to be reduced at *any* costs, that may be more difficult for some than for others, but the virus does not care, rules have to be much more strictly implemented and controlled and sanctioned. zero tolerance imho.21:55
de-factothats the conclusion from all the models, we need drastically less contact rates.21:56
de-factoalso the https://www.covid-19-mobility.org/current-mobility/ shows that people dont care so much anymore, hence they have to be forced to reduce their contacts21:57
Arsaneritclose non-essential companies and introduce mandatory home office please21:58
de-factoalso we really do need to base rules on scientific methods, imho we should make it mandatory to base every rule onto a statistically significant dataset that is published along with enforcing the rules21:59
de-factoDocScrutinizer05, https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7002e1.htm 22:00
de-facto"During December 14–23, 2020, monitoring by the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System detected 21 cases of anaphylaxis after administration of a reported 1,893,360 first doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine (11.1 cases per million doses); 71% of these occurred within 15 minutes of vaccination.22:00
de-facto"22:00
Arsaneritde-facto: what if we need to act before the science has been peer reviewed?22:07
de-factothats fine i guess, what i meant is that 1) we should make sure that containment is efficiently targeting the main contributions to transmission (hence actively research the infection origins) 2) communicate the relevance of rules and mechanisms to avoid by them to the citizens in an understandable way so they implement them rather than searching for exceptions to them22:10
BrainstormNew from ScienceNews: Could delaying a second vaccine dose lead to more dangerous coronavirus strains?: Some experts worry extending the time between vaccine doses could help the virus evolve in potentially harmful ways, but viral evolution is complex. → https://is.gd/ovGA8a22:11
de-factopeer review can be done in a delayed (but mandatory) process maybe? like reasons only remain valid when achieving peer review approval within a timeframe of idk maybe 1 month after getting utilized for implementing rules?22:12
de-facto(just an idea)22:12
ArsaneritI believe Merkel would support a lot more science/evidence-based harder measures, but isn't getting support from the less scientific colleagues in cabinet or in the Länder.22:13
de-factoyes as usual22:14
de-factomaybe if they dont support the national strategy they should loose any hope for financial support in context of the pandemic?22:14
de-factoi think we need a MUCH more aggressive approach, zero tolerance and enforce much much stricter adhesion to rules, less discussion and more action with less delays22:15
de-factoidk maybe its just me but i get the feeling they are discussing for months and months fighting about details that dont really matter and the result is some sort of stupid compromise that always works in favor of pathogen transmission relative to the proposals on the table that could have been implemented if cohesion was present in really putting effort into bringing incidence down22:17
BrainstormUpdates for Spain: +35878 cases (now 2.2 million), +201 deaths (now 53079) since a day ago — United Kingdom: +14696 cases (now 3.2 million) since 15 hours ago — France: +22144 cases (now 2.9 million), +234 deaths (now 69265) since 19 hours ago — Germany: +23095 cases (now 2.0 million), +1119 deaths (now 44856) since 22 hours ago22:18
de-factopoliticians have a limited contingent of resources they can invest into prevention of pathogen transmission (in terms of economic costs, participation of citizens, supply chains etc): its of uttermost importance to really invest those resources in a way with maximum impact (hence make sure to target infection origins efficiently, with feedback loops for confirmation), otherwise it gets too expensive in terms of costs from unwanted 22:28
de-factosideeffects relative to achieved desired containment effects22:28
de-factothats why we cant afford any type of compromises that would allow for more contact rates without really costing in terms of those resources more than the average cost/effect ratio22:30
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid immunity may last five months but people could still spread virus - study → https://is.gd/Pc98jg22:35
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Population density and virus strains will affect how regions can resume normal life: As a new, apparently more transmissible version of the virus that causes COVID-19 has appeared in several countries, new research finds that the transmissibility of viral strains and the population density of a region will play big roles in how [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/xy6qr722:48
DocScrutinizer05Drosten called it "low hanging fruits". It's basically pretty simple - just look where most contacts occur: fabs, offices, school, public transport, SHOPS...  Then for a moment forget about that >>we don't want to (steal children a year of their school time| shut down key industries| protect economy| $whhatever-silly-reasoning)<< and just CLOSE THOSE SPREADER EVENTS. Only *then* start considering what needs to get done for mitigating 22:52
DocScrutinizer05the damage done by the closing, like recompensation payments, military doing infrastructure, whatever needed22:52
DocScrutinizer05and make FFP2+ masksmandatory EVERYWHERE22:53
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: What will COVID-19 look like years from now?: (HealthDay)—The bad news? COVID-19 may be around for a long, long time. The good news? Even if it does, new research suggests it could very well end up being just another mild illness, bringing with it inconvenience and discomfort, but rarely hospitalization or death. → https://is.gd/xIxCO523:00
de-factoIn the Briefing of PEI: they clearly say that we should stick to the tested vaccination schemes with both vaccines that got approval23:01
de-factomRNA vaccines with two doses (Moderna at least 28 days apart and BioNTech/Pfizer at least 21 days apart)23:01
de-factothe second dose must be given in a time frame no longer than 42 days after the first dose23:02
de-factoa vaccination started must be finished with the same product (no mixing)23:03
de-factopeople who recovered from a secured infection can be postponed because of their immunity23:04
de-factobut there is no data that would speak against vaccinating people who got COVID before23:04
de-factothey say all side effects are mild or moderate, a bit more than from flu vaccinations more pronounced in younger people and after 2nd dose23:05
de-factothey are all temporary23:05
de-factothey mention the  Bell's palsy for Moderna (3 verum/1 placebo) and BioNTech/Pfizer (4 verum/0 placebo) being worth observation but say more data is needed for clear statements23:07
de-factothey also tell people with allergies in general are ok to get the vaccine, but mention the anaphylaxis reactions that were observed in those rare cases (afaik CDC said 11 ppm)23:09
BrainstormNew from NPR: As COVID-19 Ravages Within His Force, LAPD Chief Looks To Boost Confidence In Vaccine: An informal survey found that 60% of Los Angeles police employees would get the vaccine when it's available to them. LAPD Chief Michel Moore describes how the department plans to increase that number. → https://is.gd/S2q7Th23:12
LjLde-facto, what is PEI23:14
gigasu_shidaljl : al parecer significa Paul Ehrlich Institut23:17
gigasu_shidaFederal Institute for Vaccines and Biomedicines23:17
LjLah23:17
de-factoPaul Erhlich Institut, the institute responsible to vaccination approval in Germany (and also in many international collaborations)23:18
LjLhow does it relate to the RKI?23:18
de-factothey just have different responsibilities23:18
de-factoi think they are more or less independent form each others23:19
de-factoRKI is for epidemiology and PEI for vaccinations and biomeds23:19
gigasu_shidawow they separate the two23:20
LjLgigasu_shida, CDC and FDA are separate, y'know23:20
gigasu_shidai don't think that's a good comparison23:21
gigasu_shidaljl : Paul Ehrlich's laboratory discovered arsphenamine (Salvarsan), the first effective medicinal treatment for syphilis, thereby initiating and also naming the concept of chemotherapy.23:27
gigasu_shidain case you're curious23:27
LjLcool23:27
DocScrutinizer05>>side effects are mild or moderate<< I said to my friend, when explaining about side effects: >>Stuff like itchy arm, headache etc I don't consider side effects, this is whining<<23:29
de-factooh btw about our discussion earlier with adverse effects, they just mentioned they agreed upon standardizing it with Brighton Collaboration 23:30
de-facto.title https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12450705/ <-- maybe something like this? 23:31
Brainstormde-facto: From pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov: The Brighton Collaboration: addressing the need for standardized case definitions of adverse events following immunization (AEFI) - PubMed23:31
de-factodidnt had the time to do further research, first wanted to finish the briefing23:31
de-factointeresting they do try to estimate expected frequencies for reported effects from monitoring to be able to compare those with the reported frequencies in order to get a "heads up" in case something gets reported with an unexpected rate23:34
de-factovery smart, so they would always focus their attention to the data that shows unexpected behavior23:35
de-facto"Observed vs Expected"23:35
BrainstormNew from Gazzetta Ufficiale italiana: DECRETO-LEGGE 14 gennaio 2021, n.2: Ulteriori  disposizioni  urgenti  in  materia   di   contenimento   eprevenzione  dell'emergenza   epidemiologica   da   COVID-19   e   disvolgimento delle elezioni per l'anno 2021. (21G00002) → https://is.gd/MlhZ7l23:36
DocScrutinizer05re bells palsy I am just intetrested in _ine_ thing: cases per capita in vaccinated cohort versus covid infection cohort. And please count all those that die before they statistically would show bell's as positive. Also all those that were in coma and ventilator since you can hardly notice it in such situation 23:36
DocScrutinizer05one thing, even23:36
de-factosearch for it, id assume there are stats discover-able via google23:39
de-factointeresting the WHO distinguishes adverse reaction causes related to: 1) product properties 2) quality defect or production 3) immunization error, i.e. inappropriate handling or administration 4) anxiety 5) coincidence23:44
DocScrutinizer05my point stands: there is no (but exactly one: anaphylxia) sideffect from vaccination that you could dodge by avoiding the shot. You get all those anyway, one way or the other. The "other" being a potentially lethal infection. So now you choose: door A or door B?23:46
de-factoe.g. coincidence would also occur for placebo23:46
de-factoi think we should keep an open mind and really do tight observation and transparent reporting of all of those to deserve the trust of the majority23:47
de-factowell the institutes like PEI i mean, hence such press briefings are very important imho23:48
BrainstormNew from NPR: Putting A Roof On Risk With A COVID-19 Vaccine Jab: NPR's Bob Mondello is back from his vaccination appointment and feeling safer. → https://is.gd/qyYCC923:48
de-factoPEI found in ~600k vaccination doses: 325 cases with suspicion 913 adverse effects, 51 cases with severe adverse effects, hence per 1000 vaccination doses: ~0.53 suspected cases of adverse effect, ~0.08 suspected cases with severe adverse effects23:57

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