| de-facto | 7 severely ill people in age of 79-93 years died within a few hours to 4 days of vaccination, statistically not raised though (expected rates for those diseases they say) | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| de-facto | 6 cases with suspicion of anaphylactic reaction according ot Brighten Collaboration case definition | 00:01 |
| de-facto | that would be ~0.98 per 100k doses | 00:02 |
| de-facto | so thats almost the same as CDC | 00:02 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, side effects are side effects, as stated in the studies, we don't get to decide what is "whining" | 00:05 |
| LjL | i see a bit too much politicizing of what's in the studies while also wanting to "stick to the science" | 00:05 |
| LjL | headache, try having the sort of headache that people describe as "the worst in my life" (which is usually taken very seriously when they use that wording, because it can be a sign of many nefarious things) | 00:06 |
| LjL | then say again it's just "whining" | 00:06 |
| de-facto | most common (temporary) side effects in decreasing frequency sequence: headache, pain at the injection site, fatigue, pain in the extremities, fever, nausea, freezing, myalgia, asthenia, vomiting, flu-like symptoms, tachycardia, malaise, skin irritation, diarrhea, palpitations | 00:06 |
| de-facto | nice the PEI App "SafeVac" already got 13k participants giving direct feedback after 2nd dose of vaccination, following for over 1 year | 00:12 |
| de-facto | participation is anonymous... | 00:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Airbnb CEO says travel never going back to the way it was before pandemic → https://is.gd/qv549f | 00:12 |
| LjL | de-facto, ↑ that'll make you happy i guess | 00:13 |
| gigasu_shida | de-facto seems to dislike tourism lol | 00:14 |
| de-facto | well im not happy about that, unfortunately i think its necessary, i mean it obviously was a bit insane how there was (still is) almost no biosecurity implemented with (international) traveling | 00:15 |
| de-facto | by now we know the exact implications by that (initial spread of SARS-CoV-2 and now its variants) | 00:15 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Switzerland: +65 deaths (now 8586) since 23 hours ago | 00:16 |
| de-facto | not wanting to be pessimist, but imagine that with a more deadly pathogen without vaccines ready | 00:16 |
| LjL | de-facto, well where do you put the boundary though? at "international", based on what you said. but then if a deadly pathogen comes up in China or India, if the boundary is put at "international", you still get 1.3 BILLION people dead | 00:18 |
| LjL | so what do you do, the way it's now in Germany that you can't move more than 15km? | 00:18 |
| LjL | that seems another extreme, obviously (necessary now, of course) | 00:18 |
| LjL | i'm saying it's a difficult question | 00:18 |
| LjL | where exactly are we going to limit travel, in what ways, to what extent | 00:18 |
| LjL | can i go to France, can i go to New York, what's the boundary | 00:19 |
| LjL | talking about the long-term future, not while this pandemic lasts | 00:19 |
| LjL | also, the Airbnb CEO is not an expert on this matter - but it kinda makes an impression on me that he'd say that, because i'd expect someone in his position to be like "naaah, it'll get back to normal, start renting your airbnbs now!" | 00:20 |
| de-facto | i dont have a "perfect recipe" for that, i just think its one of the most important questions we really need to address globally | 00:22 |
| LjL | Greta Thunberg will be happy since otherwise we might never have addressed it | 00:22 |
| LjL | but on a personal level, it depresses me | 00:22 |
| LjL | i've hardly been anywhere | 00:22 |
| LjL | i have my own issues, but i could think "well there's still time, i can see things in the future", now there is barely a future | 00:23 |
| de-facto | i dont want to go into details but i think this might be related to longterm survival of our whole species https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter | 00:23 |
| de-facto | this pandemic is the chance to develop concepts and capabilities in terms of biosecurity | 00:24 |
| de-facto | especially since we observe such nasty things like asymptomatic or presymptomatic transmission | 00:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: Pandemic Fuels Record Overdose Deaths: The nation faces a grim milestone of having a record number of overdose deaths in 2020. One expert says social isolation increased the risk of dying from an overdose. → https://is.gd/31LU7i | 00:24 |
| de-facto | its not only about this COVID, i am pretty sure this pandemic will be resolved, its more about the really long term perspective, we really should use this chance to observe, learn and implement capabilities, this is what will last from it and imho if we can have some sane biosecurity concepts from this it could even be a good thing on long term that this pandemic forced us to address our biosecurity problems | 00:26 |
| de-facto | but it has to be done, we simply cant go back to "normal" since it was severely flawed in terms of biosecurity (as this pandemic demonstrated to all of us very clearly) | 00:26 |
| LjL | de-facto, but many also say that if China had acted differently, the WHO had acted differently, the international community had acted differently *at the start* of the pandemic, then we wouldn't have a pandemic now | 00:29 |
| LjL | i don't know if that's true (i'm skeptical, personally, i think it might have slowed it down but this virus was too infectious) | 00:29 |
| LjL | but under that view it's possible that we don't need biosecurity in the sense of keeping each "place" (not to say "country") on earth strictly separated, without travel | 00:30 |
| LjL | but simply that we need more transparency and early action | 00:30 |
| LjL | (and, of course, the right action, instead of saying "oh they have an epidemic in Wuhan? let's wait and see what happens") | 00:30 |
| de-facto | if we really honestly analyze (without blaming others) we can have the chance to learn from our mistakes hence improve our capabilities in terms of being able to have more control in similar scenarios in the future | 00:31 |
| de-facto | prevention could probably be improved on all levels, from containing the initial outbreak cluster over transport into new clusters and all the scenarios we observed now | 00:31 |
| de-facto | so maybe in that sence its even good that it went so wrong, because it demonstrates so many possible transmission paths that otherwise would have been kept in the dark | 00:32 |
| LjL | meh, i don't know, people still deny obvious some transmission paths just because they cannot be definitely proven :\ | 00:33 |
| LjL | i don't have much trust in our collective ability to learn from mistakes | 00:33 |
| LjL | i mean, we'd have already learned. every country has made the same mistakes despite seeing what happened to other countries prior | 00:33 |
| LjL | remember how we were all fuming about this last spring? | 00:33 |
| de-facto | well i am not saying its happening in an optimal way, all i am saying is that this is the chance to study this in reality and aquire real new capabilities | 00:33 |
| LjL | well, and after this summer too, for that matter | 00:33 |
| LjL | well, from my point of view, it seems clear we must change the way we make decisions as groups | 00:34 |
| LjL | what is scary is that some will take it as an opportunity to be like "democracy sucks, decisions work best if there's a clear leader, let's have that" | 00:34 |
| LjL | (after all, China is doing much better than us now) | 00:34 |
| de-facto | sure, every change in a constructive way in terms of honestly learning and acquiring new abilities is a good change imho | 00:35 |
| LjL | maybe what i'm trying to say is that we must change the way we learn (collectively) | 00:35 |
| de-facto | well yeah that will be the case, and unfortunately when being completely honest in this regard there even is some truth to that | 00:36 |
| LjL | because so far, it appears that even when we see obvious opportunities to change our behaviors, we don't do it | 00:36 |
| LjL | well | 00:36 |
| LjL | ideally, we could find a new way to "make things work" decisionally, that doesn't have the flaws of democracy and capitalism, but that also doesn't make us into China *or* into WW2-type Europe | 00:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Lancet (Online): [Perspectives] Rochelle Walensky: new Director of the US CDC: The HIV/AIDS epidemic was still raging in early 1995 when Rochelle Walensky was an internal medicine resident at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine in Baltimore, USA. “As interns, we were each admitting six or seven patients a night and half of them [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/E3Dsk9 | 00:37 |
| LjL | usually when we do those radical changes, heads roll | 00:37 |
| LjL | maybe for a change we could consider the COVID dead sufficient, and not make any heads roll, and change things in a less dramatic and more useful way? :\ | 00:37 |
| LjL | i dunno | 00:37 |
| de-facto | i just think we really have to use this chance, the next pandemic may be much worse than SARS-CoV-2 (not wanting to say its not bad, just relatively speaking) | 00:39 |
| de-facto | the most important thing is *not* to go back to "normal" because that "normal" prior to this pandemic has some serious flaws | 00:39 |
| de-facto | whatever we chance it must be based on what we can learn from this and in the interest of the majority of people | 00:40 |
| LjL | so for instance, i'll say again, it's important to ascertain the origin of this pandemic | 00:40 |
| LjL | if it actually leaked from a lab, then the "old normal" where we have BSL3/4 labs all over the world must be changed, importantly | 00:41 |
| de-facto | yes very much so, we must understand the origin and every other detail that significantly contributed to where we are now | 00:41 |
| LjL | i must have misinterpreted the way you often said "what does the origin matter to the current situation?", i thought you wanted to ignore the origin, but i guess i started understanding yesterday that you were genuinely asking if we could think of constructive ways in which knowing the origin could help us now and in the future | 00:42 |
| LjL | so my answer for now is we need to put a big lens over labs where pathogens are studied, which is clearly an immportant endeavor, but also potentially very dangerous | 00:43 |
| LjL | but now i must stop thinking about this for a while, my heartrate is stuck at 110, i need more calm | 00:44 |
| de-facto | yes i always try to think about the relevance on near and/or far future, because the past happened and we cant change it, we only can learn from it | 00:44 |
| LjL | de-facto, i understand. it's that often when people say "how is it relevant?" it's a colloquial way to say "it is not relevant", so it's easy to mistake the intention | 00:45 |
| de-facto | yeah sorry about being unclear, i literally mean relevance for near and far future | 00:45 |
| LjL | i understand it now. actually i think i understood it yesterday. just thought i'd mention it | 00:46 |
| de-facto | in a constructive way in the sense of "what can we ask to learn from this, that type of information that give us more predictive power over the future, hence enable us to come to more informed decisions" | 00:47 |
| gigasu_shida | de-facto: "advanced explosive lasting life" <- this sounds really strange | 00:54 |
| de-facto | Klaus Cichutek head of PEI just said the manufacturers of the mRNA vaccines can change their templates for producing new versions (including new strains) in 6 weeks, another 6 weeks to produce many millions of mRNA versions of the new update, on long term there is the possibility to integrate many versions of antigens into such a vaccine (i understand it as polyclonal version but maybe he even meant other antigens?) | 00:54 |
| de-facto | in terms of the approval every single vaccination product must be separately evaluated but in such a case they could rely on a "certain bridging" | 00:56 |
| de-facto | i think he means that those aspects that did not change (e.g. production process, delivery platform etc) would not have to be re-evaluated but id guess additional clinical data would have to be provided for those aspects that changed (e.g. new version of the S-protein and its effects on the immune response?) | 00:58 |
| de-facto | unfortunately he does not mention time scales for that | 00:58 |
| de-facto | nice PEI will publish newest stats about adverse effects for SARS-CoV-2 vaccines every week | 01:10 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.pei.de/EN/newsroom/dossier/coronavirus/coronavirus-content.html?nn=164146&cms_pos=5 | 01:10 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.pei.de: Paul-Ehrlich-Institut - Dossier Coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19Coronavirus and COVID-19 | 01:11 |
| gigasu_shida | so basically this is an admission that we are gonna need new vaccines? | 01:13 |
| LjL | de-facto, "many versions of antigens into such a vaccine (i understand it as polyclonal version but maybe he even meant other antigens?)" ← wouldn't he mean substantially mutated versions of the antigen? | 01:14 |
| LjL | (where "substantially" would mean, well, that they escape the previous vaccine) | 01:14 |
| de-facto | gigasu_shida, nope the first thing he said is that he believes that current versions of the vaccines are efficient also against the new variants, but the question he was asked was about what would happen in case modifications of the vaccines would be necessary | 01:15 |
| gigasu_shida | oh ok | 01:15 |
| de-facto | LjL, yes i think so | 01:15 |
| de-facto | i guess its good to think about such a scenario in case it would become necessary | 01:16 |
| de-facto | DocScrutinizer05, very interesting those weekly reports from the link of PEI above there ^^ | 01:18 |
| gigasu_shida | the german gov really impresses me these days | 01:20 |
| de-facto | well yeah except we are one of the slower countries in terms of daily vaccination rates compared to other EU countries, let alone the international progress | 01:21 |
| de-facto | but i think its very good they made a combined European vaccination effort, its the only way to get this under control with open borders | 01:22 |
| gigasu_shida | yeah...i totally didn't expect that | 01:22 |
| de-facto | interesting, they were asked about if history of anaphylactic reaction in the past is a contraindication for vaccination: they assume the anaphylactic reaction observed in vaccinations is not the "classic" IgE enabled reaction (such as "real" food allergies et al) but rather probably is IgG based (to ingredients of the vaccine "pseudo-allergic reaction") | 01:26 |
| de-facto | IgG against PEG and liposomes | 01:27 |
| gigasu_shida | i didn't know the difference between IgG/IgE | 01:29 |
| gigasu_shida | i need to do some research now | 01:29 |
| de-facto | conclusion: they assume its *not* a "classic" IgE based allergic reaction with anaphylactic shock, hence they see no sense in excluding people with history of such "classic" IgE based (nutrition) allergies | 01:29 |
| de-facto | i just repeat what they said, i am also no expert in that | 01:29 |
| gigasu_shida | it seems odd tho | 01:30 |
| gigasu_shida | like IgE/IgG could be a false dichotomy or whatever you wanna call it | 01:30 |
| de-facto | they assume its another type of allergic reaction that would not necessarily correlate to the "classic" form or such | 01:30 |
| de-facto | thats how I understand their statement | 01:30 |
| gigasu_shida | i will look into it | 01:31 |
| de-facto | but they say we really need to do further research into that | 01:31 |
| de-facto | Vaccinations of pregnant is not recommended because we dont have enough data. If pregnancy was detected after vaccination no abortion is indicated because there we have no data that would indicate that there would be any problems to be expected | 01:53 |
| de-facto | also fertility in animals was not affected by vaccinations | 01:53 |
| de-facto | in conclusion: we dont have enough data to ensure the safety but also we dont have data that indicates any problems, hence their recommendation is to be careful and wait with that until we know that for sure | 01:56 |
| de-facto | there is no evidence of any autoimmune reaction that would affect fertility of men either, he even called it "on the edge of fake news" when being asked about that | 01:57 |
| de-facto | but its good to know they have it on the radar and collect data about it | 01:57 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Atlantic: COVID-19 Deaths Are 25 Percent Higher Than in Any Previous Week: Editor’s Note: The Atlantic is making vital coverage of the coronavirus available to all readers. Find the collection here . → https://is.gd/s5ObN6 | 02:01 |
| de-facto | easily among the most interesting press briefings in a long time | 02:02 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Uruguay: +1514 cases (now 29989), +5 deaths (now 280) since a day ago — Dem. Rep. Congo: +476 cases (now 20479) since a day ago — France: +28244 cases (now 2.9 million) since 23 hours ago — St. Vin. and Gren.: +56 cases (now 340) since a day ago | 02:15 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Johnson and Johnson, SinoVac and More (81 votes) | https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/01/14/johnson-and-johnson-sinovac-and-more | https://redd.it/kxaiyi | 02:46 |
| LjL | de-facto, DocScrutinizer05 ↑↑↑ | 02:53 |
| LjL | "There’s another thing to watch: the New York Times reported yesterday that J&J has told the US government that they might have fallen as much as two months behind on their production schedule for the vaccine. No word as to what the problem might be." | 02:54 |
| LjL | hmm, no mention of the J&J side effects | 02:54 |
| LjL | "To be honest, these are about the efficacy numbers one could expect from an inactivated-virus vaccine. It’s an old technology, and it doesn’t always work that well." ... "But at the moment, I wouldn’t be prepared to put money on how much better [AstraZeneca] is than the SinoVac one." | 02:56 |
| dTal | the clinical trials for AstraZeneca were weird weren't they | 02:56 |
| LjL | also read the "update" at the end | 02:56 |
| LjL | dTal, de-facto thinks they were "clever" if they hadn't end up being a mess | 02:57 |
| LjL | but that's what sometimes happens when you try to be clever, i guess | 02:57 |
| dTal | clever? they messed up the dosing | 02:57 |
| dTal | I kinda worry that these vaccines are "too big to fail" | 02:58 |
| LjL | "From the article you linked: ‘While officials had asserted last week that the vaccine provided absolute protection against moderate to severe symptoms, they had not disclosed another group who had “very mild” infections despite having been vaccinated.’" | 02:58 |
| LjL | (this is from a comment - not sure which linked article it's talking about) | 02:58 |
| LjL | (but it sounds like it's talking about the mRNA vaccines and their supposedly high efficacy being maybe not so high) | 02:59 |
| LjL | but... | 02:59 |
| LjL | "Totally agree with you; I am trying to find an article that I read where many of the Moderna people had actually caught the virus but were asymptomatic and so weren’t actually counted. The A-Z people did a lot more PCR work and so caught the ones who were asymptomatic." | 02:59 |
| LjL | this reasoning is problematic | 02:59 |
| LjL | the AZ people did do all that PCR work, it's true (here dTal i think that's something AZ did that was better than the other trials) | 02:59 |
| LjL | but the numbers they published and that we usually compare with the mRNA vaccines are *not* those from the general PCR tests | 03:00 |
| LjL | they are still from symptomatic infections *only* | 03:00 |
| LjL | we also have numbers about asymptomatic cases caught from PCR, but those numbers are like... MUCH lower | 03:00 |
| LjL | in the case of the worse dosing, it ended up being 3.8% against asymptomatic infections | 03:00 |
| LjL | (lol) | 03:00 |
| LjL | "Both Moderna and Pfizer trials test periodically for nucleocapsid antibodies. “Asymptomatic COVID” is a tertiary endpoint of the trials. I don’t believe any of these data have been published yet and did not appear in the FDA briefing documents." | 03:01 |
| LjL | i don't believe it either | 03:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: BioNTech, German firm behind Pfizer's COVID-19 jab, develops potential vaccine for multiple sclerosis → https://is.gd/mdSJsv | 03:01 |
| LjL | "” So there’s your comparison number – which means that being vaccinated with either of the mRNA agents provides better protection than being infected with the real coronavirus can.” | 03:02 |
| LjL | You’re comparing apples and oranges , and with a very predictable bias. The reinfections in the UK study were detected by regular PCR and antibody assays, not by reporting of symptoms as was done in the vaccine studies." | 03:02 |
| LjL | uh oh, someone commeting against Derek! how dare they | 03:02 |
| LjL | but actually this sounds like a good point | 03:02 |
| LjL | can't compare 95%-protection-against-symptoms to 83%-protection-against-any-type-of-reinfection | 03:03 |
| LjL | although we'd have to look at that study carefully to know just how they were detecting reinfections | 03:03 |
| LjL | uh | 03:05 |
| LjL | "According to the UK SIREN study linked by Derek: “Of the 44 potential reinfections identified by the study, 2 were designated ‘probable’ and 42 ‘possible’, based on the amount of confirmatory evidence available. If all 44 cases were confirmed, it would represent an 83% rate of protection from reinfection, while if only the 2 ‘probable’ reinfections were confirmed, the rate would be 99%. Further research is ongoing to clarify this range.”" | 03:05 |
| LjL | if that's true, let's just forget about this comparison entirely | 03:05 |
| LjL | %vax covaxin | 03:06 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, no such vaccine found. Try checking https://covidvax.org | 03:06 |
| LjL | names are such a mess | 03:06 |
| LjL | anyone had a look at https://covidvax.org/covid19-vaccine/BharatBiotech-inact/Whole---Virion-Inactivated-COVAXIN---BBV152-Bharat-Biotech ? it's another inactivated vaccine that is in phase 3 (that's "covaxin") | 03:12 |
| LjL | de-facto, minor improvement | 03:39 |
| LjL | %vax Moderna | 03:39 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, mRNA-1273 LNPencapsulated mRNA is a RNA-based vaccine developed in USA by Moderna + NIAID + Lonza + Catalent Inc. + BIOQUAL, which began its distribution on date January 2021 with 3000 healthy children aged 12-17 → https://covidvax.org/covid19-vaccine/Moderna | 03:39 |
| LjL | now it tells you the specifics of the participants instead of just the number | 03:39 |
| LjL | although, err | 03:39 |
| LjL | in this case it's wrong ;( | 03:39 |
| LjL | duh, i just assumed the last listed entry was the bingo one, but in this one, Phase 3 is followed by "Phase 2-3 (children)" | 03:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Three dozen mayors ask Joe Biden for direct shipments of COVID-19 vaccine → https://is.gd/oYned0 | 03:50 |
| LjL | should be fixed. vaccines like Moderna which are under "distribution" won't list the number of participants, others will list the participants for whichever trial has the most participants | 03:56 |
| LjL | so like | 03:56 |
| LjL | %vax sanofi | 03:56 |
| LjL | ah wait no it's restarting | 03:56 |
| LjL | in a bit | 03:56 |
| LjL | %vax sanofi | 03:56 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, S protein baculovirus production is a Protein subunit vaccine developed in France + UK by Sanofi Pasteur + GSK, which began its testing on humans on date Sep 3 with 440 healthy volunteers aged 18+ → https://covidvax.org/covid19-vaccine/SanofiGSK [... want %more?] | 03:56 |
| LjL | it doesn't say the phase but the numbers should make it fairly obvious | 03:57 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Joe Biden unveils plan to pump $1.9 trillion into pandemic-hit economy → https://is.gd/Jy9ABL | 04:03 |
| de-facto | LjL, yeah the study design of AZ/OX was kinda clever (in being innovative) unfortunately their implementation was obviously not as stringent as it should have been for clean stats like some of their competitors achieved | 04:07 |
| de-facto | indeed interesting that Derek Lowe does not mention adverse effects for the JJ one, maybe he expects them to be addressed in the phase III trial, hence come out lower then? i wonder how though since you did find out they would go with that one dose of 5E10 virions or such | 04:08 |
| LjL | well, even with that dose, adverse reactions of grade were like 9%, so still high. we'll see in phase 3, but it's unlikely to have been a "fluke" of phase 1/2, given the strong correlation with dosing | 04:10 |
| de-facto | quite interesting those numbers from UK SIREN, that natural recovery only protects to 83% from reinfection with the variants present there at that time | 04:10 |
| de-facto | i bet it also will depend upon what version of the S-protein was shown to the immune system at some point in time, e.g. how "outdated" the antibodies are | 04:11 |
| LjL | de-facto, i'd take the SIREN thing with a grain of salt... i posted a few comments from Lowe's blog and it may be a bit confusing, but my understanding is that out of 46 reinfections, 2 were "probably", and 44 only "possible", so i think to reach that 83% figure for real, you'd have to look very careful at how SIREN was run | 04:11 |
| de-facto | and in that regard recovery may be "more up to date" than prefusion stabilized "good old" Wuhan spike :D | 04:11 |
| LjL | what was worrisome with the first re-infections we heard of was that it was worse the second time | 04:12 |
| de-facto | yeah we dont have stats | 04:12 |
| LjL | which would make the "given enough time and immunity, we'll still have it but it'll just be a cold" theory crumble | 04:12 |
| LjL | but it could also be heavily biased from the fact those were the *first* re-infections found | 04:12 |
| LjL | so there would be a bias towards very symptomatic ones | 04:12 |
| de-facto | like: maybe there is some bias going on, asymptomatic reinfections being severely underrepresented because noone would expect them hence noone goes for testing for them | 04:13 |
| LjL | SIREN looked more at random, so it should be interesting how severe the second one was | 04:13 |
| LjL | yes | 04:13 |
| de-facto | maybe thats why we were alarmed by those that really gave us a head up, the more severe reinfections, yet how much over-represented they are in those non-representative collections of anecdotal cases, we dont know that | 04:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from Virology.ws: Camelids for COVID: Human monoclonal antibodies that block infection with SARS-CoV-2 are being used to treat COVID-19 patients, but an alternative, antibodies produced in camelids (alpacas and llamas) might have advantages. Camelid monoclonal antibodies can be more cheaply produced in mass quantities in bacteria, and protein [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/EmEqMa | 04:15 |
| de-facto | idk the mechanisms at work in detail, but id assume the immune system to "learn" and "improve" on how to fight the pathogen, hence on a re-challenge with it it should be able to fight it off more efficiently, hence my first intuition would be to assume that the very majority of reinfections is much milder or even asymptomatic | 04:16 |
| de-facto | btw what ever happened to those nanobodies? | 04:19 |
| de-facto | "Three of the four nanobodies appear to block virus infection of cells by causing the spike protein to change to the post-fusion conformation, which is irreversible. The spike post-fusion conformation is usually attained upon binding to the cell receptor, ACE2, but the nanobodies can trigger fusion in the absence of this protein." | 04:20 |
| de-facto | wow that sounds neat | 04:21 |
| LjL | this is prophylaxis though, right? or is it meant to work as a treatment? | 04:22 |
| de-facto | .title https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2021/01/11/science.abe6230 | 04:22 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From science.sciencemag.org: Structure-guided multivalent nanobodies block SARS-CoV-2 infection and suppress mutational escape | Science | 04:22 |
| de-facto | LjL, both id assume | 04:22 |
| de-facto | prophylaxis and antiviral | 04:22 |
| de-facto | "For passive immunization efforts, nanobodies have size and cost advantages over conventional antibodies. Here, we generated four neutralizing nanobodies that target the receptor-binding domain of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein." | 04:24 |
| de-facto | "We defined two distinct binding epitopes using x-ray crystallography and cryo-electron microscopy. Based on the structures, we engineered multivalent nanobodies with more than 100-fold improved neutralizing activity than monovalent nanobodies." | 04:25 |
| de-facto | "Biparatopic nanobody fusions suppressed the emergence of escape mutants." | 04:25 |
| de-facto | "Production in prokaryotic expression systems is cheap, easily scaled up, and allows straight-forward protein engineering, including multivalent nanobodies with enhanced functionalities" | 04:26 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Endemic SARS-CoV-2 will maintain post-pandemic immunity (82 votes) | https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-020-00493-9 | https://redd.it/kxkrb9 | 05:41 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for New Zealand: +18 cases (now 2246) since 2 days ago | 05:42 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: Trader Joe’s Becomes First Grocery Chain To Pay Workers To Get Vaccine; Other Chains Say No (11567 votes) | https://labor411.org/411-blog/trader-joes-becomes-first-grocery-chain-to-pay-workers-to-get-vaccine-other-chains-say-no/ | https://redd.it/kxkpy8 | 05:53 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Germany: +17596 cases (now 2.0 million) since 15 hours ago | 06:01 |
| de-facto | https://sci-hub.se/downloads/2020-06-10/42/10.1016@j.addr.2020.06.002.pdf "Lipid nanoparticles for nucleic acid delivery: Current perspectives" | 06:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from EurekAlert!: DNA test can quickly identify pneumonia in patients with severe COVID-19, aiding faster treatment: Researchers have developed a DNA test to quickly identify secondary infections in COVID-19 patients, who have double the risk of developing pneumonia while on ventilation than non-COVID-19 patients. → https://is.gd/niGUza | 06:30 |
| de-facto | RKI COVID-19 Germany 2021-01-15: Weekly Incidence 146.1/100k, Infections +22368 (2000958 total), Fatalities +1113 (44994 total), COVID@ICU 5099 (incl 2939 on ventilator) | 06:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: China’s COVID-19 hospitalisations, cases rise; travel discouraged → https://is.gd/Ff0mT3 | 06:54 |
| pavel42ru[m] | https://joerizoliopinions.onlinegroups.net/groups/joe-rizoliopinions/messages/topic/5TCwkDUfl9Q9h0OpKZKf0E | 07:07 |
| de-facto | lol | 07:08 |
| de-facto | obviously fake, written by someone not having a clue about science | 07:09 |
| JoeLlama | weird | 07:09 |
| pavel42ru[m] | Then explain: why, according to statistics, after the appearance of the coronavirus, the overall mortality rate has not changed ?! Why did people suddenly stop dying from cancer, strokes, heart attacks, diabetes, pneumonia and other diseases ??? !!! | 07:13 |
| de-facto | %cases world | 07:14 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: Sorry, world not found. Either there aren't cases, or it's under a different name. | 07:14 |
| de-facto | %cases | 07:14 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: Sorry, not found. Either there aren't cases, or it's under a different name. | 07:14 |
| de-facto | ermm | 07:14 |
| de-facto | worldwide 2M died from COVID | 07:15 |
| de-facto | https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ | 07:15 |
| de-facto | many countries have excess mortality, clearly correlating with COVID-19 fatalities | 07:16 |
| de-facto | https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid | 07:16 |
| de-facto | https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Cross-Section/Corona/Society/population_death.html | 07:16 |
| pavel42ru[m] | Since March, always and everywhere I go without a mask, including in crowded places (shops and so on). those friends of mine who agreed to wear masks (thank God there are not many of them) have already had respiratory diseases several times, including pneumonia. | 07:17 |
| de-facto | explanation: they got infected with SARS-CoV-2 causing COVID-19 and for some it ended with death unfortunately | 07:17 |
| de-facto | then you are stupid and asocial if you deliberately go among people without wearing a mask, i hope they will give you a big fine for that. those people die because daily new infections did not go down exactly because of ignorant people like you | 07:19 |
| de-facto | please open your eyes and inform yourself from proper sources and not such brainwash | 07:19 |
| pavel42ru[m] | <de-facto "worldwide 2M died from COVID"> that's just the point: all the dead are recorded in the covid. in this case it is strange that the correlation is not 100% | 07:20 |
| de-facto | correlation to what? those are secured diagnosis of infection with SARS-CoV-2 and having a weeks long fight for their lives against COVID-19 and finally lost their lifes | 07:22 |
| pavel42ru[m] | "then you are stupid and asocial " - so you have shown your intellectual level. those who have nothing to answer, always begin to offend - this is a pattern. | 07:25 |
| de-facto | well how else would one call having still not understood the virus is real more than a year after most others did? and being proud of not wearing a mask hence deliberately risking to infect others by spreading the pathogen, giving them potentially deadly infection is probably more than just asocial | 07:27 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Morelos, Mexico: +568 cases (now 12636), +13 deaths (now 1541) since a day ago — Chiba, Japan: +488 cases (now 15892), +8 deaths (now 153) since a day ago — Crimea Republic, Ukraine: +365 cases (now 28545), +9 deaths (now 622) since a day ago — Penza, Russia: +212 cases (now 28865), +2 deaths (now 347) since a day ago | 07:28 |
| de-facto | and yes you are correct, such an attitude makes me furiously angry indeed, because its beyond ignorant | 07:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: As if one Pandemic was not too much, H5N8 bird flu sweeps across India, France, UK, Belgium, South Korea, Japan → https://is.gd/WEd9EQ | 07:30 |
| pavel42ru[m] | "i hope they will give you a big fine for that. " - why should I impose a fine? I do not represent a danger to anyone: if it is important for someone to be guaranteed not to get infected, then he always has the opportunity to wear a mask himself and supply himself a vaccine, in this case, he is guaranteed protected. Therefore, there is no need to indicate anything to others. It's so obvious. | 07:34 |
| pavel42ru[m] | "those people die because daily new infections did not go down exactly because of ignorant people like you" - Then how do you explain that in Sweden, where there were no restrictions, and in Germany, where the restrictions were fierce, the same percentage of people infected and died is the same ??? | 07:41 |
| de-facto | since more than 44% of infections already happened before any symptoms occurred you never know if you currently infect someone by not wearing a mask. viral spread is blocked most efficiently at the source not when its floating around everywhere already and wearing a mask protects others from you potentially spreading the virus 1) by blocking the droplets spitting while speaking, coughing or sneezing 2) when wearing an ffp2 mask without valve | 07:50 |
| de-facto | also by filtering out the aerosol particles | 07:50 |
| de-facto | someone infected potentially can infect many others in clusters, its much more effective to block the contamination at the source | 07:50 |
| pavel42ru[m] | Then how do you explain that in Sweden, where there were no restrictions, and in Germany, where the restrictions were fierce, the same percentage of people infected and died is the same ??? | 07:50 |
| pavel42ru[m] | People were dying of natural causes, as always. Only now they began, for some reason, to attribute the coronavirus. According to your official statistics, most of the deaths from coronavirus are between 80 and 90 years old. Of course, these were perfectly healthy people without other diseases !!! This is the same as if the herpes virus was found in people and herpes was indicated as the cause of death. Just because it | 07:50 |
| pavel42ru[m] | is, that's what they do with the coronavirus. And they put it on the basis of PCR tests, about which even their creator himself said that they do not at all prove the presence of coronavirus. I watched an interview with the creator of PCR tests, so I have reliable sources, unlike you: turn off the TV, turn on your brains. | 07:50 |
| de-facto | and since everyone is potentially a health risk to others its mandatory for everyone to mitigate that risk by wearing a mask | 07:51 |
| \mSg | Sweden has about twice as many infections per million pop and twice as many deaths per million pop from worldometers. | 07:51 |
| zutt | %cases sweden | 07:52 |
| Brainstorm | zutt: In Sweden, there have been 518783 confirmed cases (5.0% of the population) and 10185 deaths (2.0% of cases) as of 16 hours ago. 4.7 million tests were performed (11.0% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Sweden for time series data. | 07:52 |
| zutt | oh they went over 10k deaths that much | 07:52 |
| de-facto | yeah thats what i just wanted to say sweden did not had mandatory restrictions but that does not mean people were not careful there too and did wear masks and did distance, yet obviously they did worse than most EU countries but already in the summer | 07:52 |
| zutt | de-facto: yeah they did not care about Corona at all, they have been making fun of it all 2020 and not having any care in the world | 07:54 |
| de-facto | excess mortality means that we had more than average mortality (all causes) this year | 07:54 |
| de-facto | no matter how you call it, what was different this year is what caused that | 07:54 |
| de-facto | and most would probably agree to call that difference COVID | 07:54 |
| pavel42ru[m] | Explain on what basis you generally mention statistics that are based on PCR tests. Which, officially, give 40% of errors, both in one direction and in the other. | 07:55 |
| \mSg | death isn't the only negative endpoint for covid-19 though. There's long-haulers, and unknown early mortality from various organ damage. | 07:55 |
| de-facto | pavel42ru[m], thats simply not ture | 07:55 |
| \mSg | go ahead and post the one source for that for a tests created early in the pandemic when things weren't as understood as they are now. | 07:56 |
| de-facto | if PCR tests woudl give 40% error, how can Australia need ~5000 PCR tests to find one positive case? https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/tests-per-confirmed-case-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&time=earliest..latest&country=~AUS | 07:57 |
| de-facto | really you should not believe your sources telling you such things, such claims obviously cant be true | 07:58 |
| de-facto | try reading wikipedia from time to time | 07:58 |
| de-facto | or also official statistics of many countries independently of each other | 07:59 |
| pavel42ru[m] | How do you explain the fact that recently Coca-Cola was tested for coronavirus in the German parliament. And the test showed that Coca-Cola is sick !!! Coca-Cola is sold in every store !!! Horrible. I ask you: what to do now ??? Arrest Coca-Cola? | 07:59 |
| de-facto | lol | 08:00 |
| de-facto | i dont explain that because if they did a PCR test on a non-contaminated Coca-Cola it was negative for sure | 08:01 |
| pavel42ru[m] | "f PCR tests woudl give 40% error, how can Australia need ~5000 PCR tests to find one positive case? " - Nothing personal, just business. | 08:02 |
| de-facto | error rates obviously must be far far below 1 in 5000 otherwise the predictive value of the PCR test would be unusable in their scenario and they would not buy it anymore | 08:04 |
| \mSg | 1. it was an Australian parliament member, 2. it was an antigen test, not an RT-PCR test, 3. it's been several times over debunked. | 08:04 |
| de-facto | antigen tests sometimes have false positives because some of them also get triggered by staph aureus a bacterium in the nose and mouth | 08:05 |
| de-facto | thats why they recommend to do an PCR test for confirmation if antigen test give positive results | 08:06 |
| de-facto | PCR test false positive is almost impossible id assume | 08:06 |
| de-facto | PCR test false negative may of course happen for badly taken samples for example | 08:07 |
| \mSg | Depending on the spread throughout the population, the test needs to have a higher sensitivity or specificity to have better results. | 08:07 |
| de-facto | yes | 08:07 |
| \mSg | If you're interested in a highly informed virology professor testing false-positive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk64Zwcj3W8 | 08:08 |
| de-facto | yeah i have seen that | 08:08 |
| \mSg | and more info on sensitivity vs specificity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPc6_UkdtzU | 08:08 |
| pavel42ru[m] | "i dont explain that because if they did a PCR test on a non-contaminated Coca-Cola it was negative for sure" - I haven't heard such nonsense for a long time. it is on what basis you claim that the test would be EXACTLY negative if these tests in humans give 40% of errors. knowing this, to assert that the test would definitely be negative - this means not to be friends with the mind at all. and how easily you accused | 08:09 |
| pavel42ru[m] | the MP of special pollution. Of course, what the TV says (which shows the same pictures, while in America it is passed off as an American hospital, in Italy - an Italian one) - this is of course the truth. | 08:09 |
| de-facto | still the RNA fragments that fit to the primers in his test were present | 08:09 |
| de-facto | i claim that it is EXACTLY negative because Coca-Cola does not contain any RNA fragment from SARS-CoV-2 that could fit to the highly specific primers and amplified in the PCR cycles up to a threshold where it would give a positive result | 08:11 |
| de-facto | its simply not possible unless it was contaminated in production (i highly doubt that) | 08:11 |
| de-facto | please read about how a PCR test works | 08:12 |
| pavel42ru[m] | "really you should not believe your sources telling you such things" - this is why I shouldn't believe my sources? why shouldn't I trust the creator of the PCR test? You will take the trouble to provide arguments, at least one. You, like a television, pour out a line of statements and instructions, but you cannot give a single argument, you cannot answer a single question. How much are you sitting here for? | 08:16 |
| \mSg | Again, it's an antigen test - not a PCR test that was used on the coca-cola. It would be lovely if we had access to antigen tests in the public because of how cheap they are - they are not a diagnostic test. These have high false-positive/negatives because it's a public health tool - not a diagnostic tool. They indicate the individual should follow-up any positive with a diagnostic tool. | 08:17 |
| de-facto | you did not understand what i was saying: if australia made 5k tests to find one case the PCR test CANT have 40% false positive rate, its simple math there | 08:18 |
| de-facto | think about it, if it had 40% false results, noone would have noticed until you came along telling people about that secret? | 08:19 |
| de-facto | come on | 08:19 |
| zutt | 40% rate seems excessively high false positive rate as well, thats almost a coinflip level inaccuracy | 08:19 |
| zutt | and at that point - no one would use them, governments would not pay for that inaccurate tests | 08:19 |
| de-facto | exactly | 08:19 |
| de-facto | im going to bed, gn8 | 08:20 |
| zutt | gn | 08:20 |
| pavel42ru[m] | "Updates for Morelos, Mexico: +568 cases (now 12636), +13 deaths (now 1541) since a day ago — Chiba, Japan: +488 cases (now 15892), +8 deaths (now 153) since a day ago — Crimea Republic, Ukraine: +365 cases (now 28545), +9 deaths (now 622) since a day ago — Penza, Russia: +212 cases (now 28865), +2 deaths (now 347) since a day ago" - Why do you shower with statistics if you can't believe it. She's all lying. And | 08:21 |
| pavel42ru[m] | unlike de facto, can argue this: when doctors began to pay, and much more than usual, for working with coronavirus, and pathologists for diagnosing coronavirus is a direct Bribe. Actually, you have to go to jail for this. | 08:21 |
| \mSg | Doctors where? I'm assuming you're not in the u.s.a. | 08:23 |
| pavel42ru[m] | before the coronavirus, when a person died, an autopsy was always mandatory, despite all previously diagnosed diagnoses. it has been mandatory in medicine in all countries of the world for many decades. de facto, be so kind as to take the trouble to explain: why was it categorically forbidden to do an autopsy when a coronavirus was diagnosed ??? | 08:26 |
| \mSg | sorry, but that's simply not true. Prior to the pandemic, autopsies were not always mandatory in the u.s.a., but I can't speak for the rest of the world. When the number of bodies requires refrigerator trucks to store because the morgue overflows, the throughput is simply not there to perform autopsies on every subject. | 08:28 |
| pavel42ru[m] | ermm | 08:33 |
| pavel42ru[m] | "worldwide 2M died from COVID" - why did you decide that they died from the coronavirus? because that's what they said on TV? everyone is recorded in the coronavirus on the basis of PCR tests. how many people die from the flu every year? Take an interest. | 08:33 |
| \mSg | https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-mortality-raw-death-count | 08:37 |
| pavel42ru[m] | <\mSg "sorry, but that's simply not tru"> I asked about something else: why was a categorical ban on autopsy introduced? | 08:38 |
| \mSg | link above to excess deaths. If it's not COVID-19 - something else drastic is happening based on the lines. | 08:38 |
| \mSg | Where was this ban? In the u.s.a. they performed autopsies to see how the disease affected various organs. | 08:39 |
| zutt | pavel42ru[m]: are you here to just try to deny the existence of covid or what are you after? | 08:40 |
| zutt | i assure you, it's not 5g causing these deaths. | 08:40 |
| pavel42ru[m] | "When the number of bodies requires refrigerator trucks to store because the morgue overflows." - This reminds me of a story on American television about a certain hospital in the province, which was allegedly overflowing with covid patients. But when the volunteer journalists arrived there, they saw the surprised doctors, who said: we don't know where this story came from, most of our rooms are empty, just like | 08:42 |
| pavel42ru[m] | usual. | 08:42 |
| pavel42ru[m] | <zutt "i assure you, it's not 5g causin"> lol. a typical answer from propagandists: you ask about one thing, they answer about another. | 08:44 |
| \mSg | I'd love to see that with the date the video occurred. I've seen the one that was recent, where the "journalist" seemed off his rocker, and the nurses in line were placating him so as not to set him off... "haha, yeah - the hospital is empty...yep..." | 08:44 |
| zutt | pavel42ru[m]: sorry, but it just seems like you're trying to troll here | 08:44 |
| \mSg | The question was answered prior to zutt's response. I'm not sure we have to resort to namecalling. I'm not so sure this exchange is happening in good-faith anymore. | 08:47 |
| \mSg | I guess I shouldn't say answered - so much as debunked. | 08:48 |
| zutt | I apologize for my intrusion, but the convo was getting quite ridiculous | 08:48 |
| \mSg | I like to test my understanding of the world by taking some of these lines of questions down the rabbit hole every so often. It helps test my understanding, and often times brings up interesting studies or meta-analysis papers through researching the questions. Keeps me fresh. | 08:49 |
| zutt | I see, there are always different sides to everything yes | 08:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express (Health): Destination of the week: New guidelines on mental well-being for the pandemic-hit travel industry → https://is.gd/F5uGMI | 08:54 |
| zutt | %cases estonia | 08:55 |
| Brainstorm | zutt: In Estonia, there have been 35621 confirmed cases (2.7% of the population) and 311 deaths (0.9% of cases) as of 18 hours ago. 696809 tests were performed (5.1% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.5% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 1.2% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Estonia for time series data. | 08:55 |
| pavel42ru[m] | <zutt "pavel42ru: sorry, but it just se"> no trolling here is de facto here and you are like him. I understand you get paid for it. just do not understand what is the point in you if you say the same as zomboyaschik. | 08:59 |
| zutt | I wish I got paid for chatting in IRC, do send me offers! :P | 09:00 |
| pavel42ru[m] | what is happening now was described by the Rockefellers back in 2010. and this is not trolling - these are their official documents laid out in the public domain. | 09:01 |
| pavel42ru[m] | what used to be called conspiracy theories are now openly spoken by politicians. where are all those who laughed at it. why do they not call politicians conspiracy theorists. why did they put their tongues in their ... | 09:02 |
| \mSg | zomboyashik? | 09:03 |
| \mSg | This isn't ##politics - but feel free to troll there too. Their moderation is a little more heavy-handed though. | 09:04 |
| \mSg | Before you go though, Russia Internet Research Agency/Giavset? Surely IRC isn't a very soft-target for this disinformation campaign. Do they pay you, or do you do this out of fear of reprisal (blink twice if you need help)? Or is this what you do in your free time kinda to unwind from facebook trolling? | 09:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | January 15, 2021: The WHO pages contain up-to-date and global information. Please refer to our Wiki for additional information. → https://is.gd/Oc0U1f | 09:06 |
| pavel42ru[m] | <Brainstorm "New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Di"> Are you laughing? WHO is a private organization. | 09:09 |
| pavel42ru[m] | In fact, all this madness around a new strain of flu is precisely because of such as de facto. | 09:10 |
| pavel42ru[m] | Such as de facto argue that if we all wear muzzles like dogs, it will stop. In fact, the organizers of the madness have already prepared new viruses and horror stories. This will not stop, this madness will grow more and more if we believe what they say on TV | 09:14 |
| \mSg | Brainstorm is a bot. The mutations hasn't risen to the level enough to be called a new "strain." Who is an agency fundded mostly by governments of multiple countries. | 09:14 |
| \mSg | You mistyped - should be "In opinion" rather than "In fact" there...happens to the best of us...they keys are like right next to eachother. | 09:15 |
| pavel42ru[m] | "Who is an agency fundded mostly by governments of multiple countries." - Firstly, this does not negate the fact that WHO is a private organization, and secondly, this is a lie: WHO is funded mainly by pharmaceutical companies. | 09:17 |
| zutt | pavel42ru[m]: one of the many world health organization funders, is Russian government - did you know this? | 09:18 |
| pavel42ru[m] | Still would. They benefit from the nonsense that they give out. Or do you think that the government represents the interests of the people ??? I am very well versed in the topic, so I understand that in the West, governments are not the spokesmen for the interests of the majority. They also benefit from what the WHO issues. | 09:21 |
| \mSg | If you care to peruse a financial statement: https://apps.who.int/gb/ebwha/pdf_files/WHA70/A70_40-en.pdf?ua=1 | 09:25 |
| \mSg | Anywho, it's been fun, but since this is clearly headed to ##politics instead of the science, I have to depart. At least nobody called anybody else "literally hitler" yet. Let me know though, would you get fired or something if you let it slip how your working conditions are? Do you at least get a windoow to look out of? | 09:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: DNA test can quickly identify pneumonia in patients with severe COVID-19, aiding faster treatment: Researchers have developed a DNA test to quickly identify secondary infections in COVID-19 patients, who have double the risk of developing pneumonia while on ventilation than non-COVID-19 patients. → https://is.gd/PeBLd2 | 09:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: China builds new quarantine center as virus cases rise → https://is.gd/yS8KIV | 09:55 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: In coronavirus vaccine drive, Deep South falls behind: The coronavirus vaccines have been rolled out unevenly across the U.S., but four states in the Deep South have had particularly dismal inoculation rates that have alarmed health experts and frustrated residents. → https://is.gd/G0WHf0 | 10:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Mexico hit by deadliest week of pandemic yet: Mexico reeled Thursday from its worst week of the pandemic yet, with deaths averaging nearly 1,000 a day and a health system that was close to reaching a breaking point. → https://is.gd/Sfjdso | 10:19 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs dampen the cytokine and antibody response to SARS-CoV-2 infection (80 votes) | https://jvi.asm.org/content/early/2021/01/12/JVI.00014-21 | https://redd.it/kxbco6 | 10:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Health: In LA, ambulances circle for hours and ICUs are full. Is this what Covid-19 has in store for the rest of the country? → https://is.gd/vRt1iF | 10:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Opinion: Are more people surviving Covid-19 because doctors are doing less?: Covid-19 has been a grim lesson in humility. We still have almost no ability to change the fate of patients with severe Covid-19 which, like many other viral infections, has… → https://is.gd/5wuTff | 10:56 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Indonesia: +12818 cases (now 882418), +238 deaths (now 25484) since a day ago | 11:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Because of COVID Renewables produce more power than fossil fuels in Germany → https://is.gd/v2PgBw | 11:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from PubMed: Elvan Onem Ozbilen: The Assessment of Knowledge, Behaviors, and Anxiety Levels of the Orthodontists about COVID-19 Pandemic → https://is.gd/oKvhgV | 12:21 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for UAE: +3407 cases (now 246376), +7 deaths (now 733) since 22 hours ago — Canada: +127 deaths (now 17538) since 19 hours ago | 12:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: News and press releases: Cyberattack on EMA - update 5, , 15/01/2021: The ongoing investigation of the cyberattack on EMA revealed that some of the unlawfully accessed documents related to COVID-19 medicines and vaccines... → https://is.gd/2GBYQv | 12:33 |
| Trippy72394 | are kids in school in usa? | 12:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | %tr <de Noch einen Schritt weiter geht die von Ärzten, Wissenschaftlern und Prominenten unterstützte Initiative "#ZeroCovid". Sie fordert einen "solidarischen europäischen Shutdown" und "einen radikalen Strategiewechsel": "Fabriken, Büros, Betriebe, Baustellen, Schulen müssen geschlossen und die Arbeitspflicht ausgesetzt werden." | 12:49 |
| Brainstorm | TypeError: argument of type 'NoneType' is not iterable (file "/home/brainstorm/brainstorm/bot/natlang.py", line 362, in langcode) | 12:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | errr | 12:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | %tr <de Noch einen Schritt weiter geht die von Ärzten, Wissenschaftlern und Prominenten unterstützte Initiative hashtag-ZeroCovid. Sie fordert einen solidarischen europäischen Shutdown und einen radikalen Strategiewechsel. Fabriken, Büros, Betriebe, Baustellen, Schulen müssen geschlossen und die Arbeitspflicht ausgesetzt werden. | 12:51 |
| Brainstorm | TypeError: argument of type 'NoneType' is not iterable (file "/home/brainstorm/brainstorm/bot/natlang.py", line 362, in langcode) | 12:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | %tr <de Noch einen Schritt weiter | 12:52 |
| Brainstorm | TypeError: argument of type 'NoneType' is not iterable (file "/home/brainstorm/brainstorm/bot/natlang.py", line 362, in langcode) | 12:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meh | 12:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: ping! ^^^ | 12:52 |
| genera | %tr de Schritt | 12:52 |
| Brainstorm | TypeError: argument of type 'NoneType' is not iterable (file "/home/brainstorm/brainstorm/bot/natlang.py", line 362, in langcode) | 12:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | https://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/themen/coronavirus/corona-todesfaelle-infektionen-100.html | 12:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "MEGA lockdown" hmmmm, about time, no? | 12:53 |
| Trippy72394 | seems to be back a bit here in china | 12:55 |
| Trippy72394 | i wonder how it got in | 12:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Trippy72394: you're in China? | 12:57 |
| Trippy72394 | yes | 12:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I wonder how much access you got to info like https://covid19.specops.network and the links therein, through great chinese firewall | 12:59 |
| Trippy72394 | checking.... | 12:59 |
| Trippy72394 | that site works | 12:59 |
| Trippy72394 | who puts out that site? | 13:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LjL | 13:00 |
| Trippy72394 | ah | 13:00 |
| Trippy72394 | nice | 13:00 |
| Trippy72394 | we have some precautionary measures here in hainan | 13:01 |
| Trippy72394 | masks in shops and malls etc. hairdressers closed. advice from govt to not travel this spring festival. stuff like that. | 13:01 |
| Trippy72394 | we're happy to do it. | 13:01 |
| Trippy72394 | like werner herzog said "starve the bugger" | 13:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | most of us here are also happy with similar stuff and even want more. alas a minority and politicians are reluctant or even denying the mere existence of threat | 13:03 |
| Trippy72394 | sorry to hear that. where? | 13:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | here Germany, but I think it applies to a lot of EU countries | 13:04 |
| Trippy72394 | ah | 13:04 |
| Trippy72394 | my brain says "all or nothing" | 13:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, very reasonable | 13:04 |
| Trippy72394 | starve it, 100%, back to business. | 13:04 |
| Trippy72394 | you can't do "mostly" with this bug | 13:04 |
| Trippy72394 | they say "it's mostly gone, let's open up" | 13:05 |
| Trippy72394 | that makes zero sense. | 13:05 |
| Trippy72394 | when it first started it was "it's mostly not here, let's stay open" | 13:05 |
| Trippy72394 | that didn't work out well | 13:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "in Gefahr und hoechster Not bringt der Mittelweg den Tod" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Danger_and_Deep_Distress,_the_Middleway_Spells_Certain_Death | 13:06 |
| Trippy72394 | is that for me? | 13:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) just a comment | 13:06 |
| Trippy72394 | reading it now (i have an offline wikipedia, as it's blocked here) | 13:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ouch | 13:07 |
| Trippy72394 | it sounds good! | 13:07 |
| Trippy72394 | yes, i know. i was an admin there. now, no more. | 13:07 |
| Trippy72394 | but I can download offline versions, so I still have the best encyclopedia. | 13:08 |
| Trippy72394 | i do hope this vaccine start to get rid of this terrible bug | 13:08 |
| Trippy72394 | Earth has had enough. | 13:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Coronavirus cases in Europe top 30 million: More than 30 million coronavirus cases have been officially recorded in Europe, according to an AFP tally based on official health statistics at 0800 GMT on Friday. → https://is.gd/6TS0As | 13:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | trisorry? do you think there's a bug in the vaccine, or do you hope the vaccine starts to extinct the virus-"bug"? | 13:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | damn, they're gone | 13:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from ProPublica: The Radicalization of Kevin Greeson: by Connor Sheets , AL.com ProPublica is a nonprofit newsroom that investigates abuses of power. Sign up to receive our biggest stories as soon as they’re published. This article was produced in partnership with AL.com , which was a member of the ProPublica Local Reporting Network in 2019. In [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/5SbcAR | 13:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Potential COVID-19 drug is successful in lab study: A new potential therapy for COVID-19 developed by researchers at Rush University Medical Center has shown success in preventing the disease's symptoms in mice. → https://is.gd/xT1cuG | 13:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid-19: Brazil virus already in UK ‘not variant of concern’, scientist says → https://is.gd/RVPYAR | 14:12 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Germany: +21575 cases (now 2.0 million) since 23 hours ago | 14:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Incidence of COVID-19 increased in children since September: The incidence of laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 increased since September among children, adolescents, and young children, according to research published in the Jan. 13 early-release issue of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Morbidity and Mortality [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/94L8E8 | 15:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid-19: Brazil virus already in UK ‘not variant of concern’, scientist says → https://is.gd/RVPYAR | 15:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid: Intensive care patients transferred from London to Newcastle → https://is.gd/nnrVTW | 16:03 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Switzerland: +53 deaths (now 8621) since 23 hours ago | 16:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): Covid2019: Dr. Anthony Fauci: Beyond the Limits of Science - Our next Chief Medical Advisor in the eyes of senior leadership at the NIAID → https://is.gd/xeY83K | 16:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid-19: Brazil virus already in UK ‘not variant of concern’, scientist says → https://is.gd/RVPYAR | 16:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from Ars Technica: Science: Trump tries to claw back billions from COVID vaccine distributor → https://is.gd/g9zwjI | 17:05 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Mayotte: +356 cases (now 6611), +2 deaths (now 58) since 2 days ago — St. Vin. and Gren.: +48 cases (now 388) since 14 hours ago — Netherlands: +61 deaths (now 12839) since 23 hours ago | 17:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: ICU Nurse Says Careless Attitudes Around COVID-19 Are 'A Slap In The Face': Lydia Mobley has experienced the pandemic's deadliest days from the inside of a Michigan hospital. "You see people not wearing masks. And then you go to work and you watch people die," the nurse says. → https://is.gd/bc2BXG | 17:30 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: COVID-19 Trends Among Persons Aged 0–24 Years — United States, March 1–December 12, 2020 (82 votes) | https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7003e1.htm | https://redd.it/kxgo9n | 17:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: New COVID-19 treatment trial results published: A clinical trial involving COVID-19 patients hospitalized at UT Health San Antonio and University Health, among roughly 100 sites globally, found that a combination of the drugs baricitinib and remdesivir reduced time to recovery, according to results published Dec. 11 in the New [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/nDH7Ax | 17:42 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Chile: +4468 cases (now 661180), +75 deaths (now 17369) since 23 hours ago — United Kingdom: +51055 cases (now 3.3 million), +1653 deaths (now 86491) since 19 hours ago — Canada: +5997 cases (now 691849), +141 deaths (now 17601) since 21 hours ago | 17:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>The peptide inhibits cytokines that only are produced by the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, not other inflammatory stimuli, indicating that this peptide would not cause immunosuppression," Pahan said. << https://is.gd/xT1cuG New from Medical Xpress: Potential COVID-19 drug is successful in lab... | 18:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Assessment of Efficacy and Safety of Therapy With COVID-19 Convalescent Plasma in Subjects With Severe COVID-19 (IPCO) → https://is.gd/JlFnWq | 18:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid-19: Brazil virus already in UK ‘not variant of concern’, scientist says → https://is.gd/RVPYAR | 18:20 |
| LjL | not variant of *further* concern, if anything? | 18:26 |
| LjL | ah, one variant as opposed to the other | 18:26 |
| LjL | %tr <de Entschuldigung DocScrutinizer05, jetzt sollt aber das Bot funktionieren | 18:27 |
| Brainstorm | TypeError: argument of type 'NoneType' is not iterable (file "/home/brainstorm/brainstorm/bot/natlang.py", line 362, in langcode) | 18:27 |
| LjL | or not! :P | 18:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: :-D no worries :-D thanks a lot | 18:27 |
| LjL | okaaaay i have to restart all three slowly | 18:27 |
| ketas | look it has it's own user! | 18:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | this ^^^ peptide stuff sounds promising. Nasal application | 18:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | allegedly complete ingibition of virus aiui | 18:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid: 'Convalescent plasma no benefit to hospital patients' → https://is.gd/u1jOwG | 18:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o.O | 18:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>The results are a blow to researchers and the NHS<< not only to them | 18:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>The treatment involves blood plasma being taken from people who have recovered from the disease - which contains antibodies to coronavirus - and transfused into seriously ill patients. [...] But early analysis of 1,873 deaths in a study of 10,400 UK patients shows the treatment made "no significant difference".<< | 18:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, maybe the "seriously ill" is the problem in this. Prolly just too late | 18:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | once the virus flooded systemically and system struggles from the fallout and not the virus itself, it's obviously a tad late to start antibody therapy to fight the virus | 18:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Virus surge pushes Spain regions to tighten curbs: Just days after Spain counted a record number of daily infections following the Christmas holidays, several regions moved Friday to further tighten restrictions on social life. → https://is.gd/AiBOFq | 18:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which turns focus to the question "how to predict if a patient has a high risk for a severe development" | 18:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | %tr <de wieder wach? | 18:46 |
| Brainstorm | TypeError: argument of type 'NoneType' is not iterable (file "/home/brainstorm/brainstorm/bot/natlang.py", line 362, in langcode) | 18:46 |
| LjL | <DocScrutinizer05> %tr <de wieder wach? | 18:57 |
| LjL | err | 18:57 |
| LjL | %tr <de wieder wach? | 18:57 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, German to English: awake again? (MyMemory, Google) — Again awake? (Apertium) | 18:57 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Italy: +16144 cases (now 2.4 million), +477 deaths (now 81325) since a day ago | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 19:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | %tr <de Noch einen Schritt weiter geht die von Ärzten, Wissenschaftlern und Prominenten unterstützte Initiative "#ZeroCovid". Sie fordert einen "solidarischen europäischen Shutdown" und "einen radikalen Strategiewechsel": "Fabriken, Büros, Betriebe, Baustellen, Schulen müssen geschlossen und die Arbeitspflicht ausgesetzt werden." | 19:14 |
| Brainstorm | DocScrutinizer05, German to English: The "#ZeroCovid" initiative, supported by doctors, scientists and celebrities, goes one step further. She calls for a "European shutdown based on solidarity" and "a radical change in strategy": "Factories, offices, factories, construction sites, schools must be closed and the obligation to work suspended." (MyMemory, Google) [... want %more?] | 19:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | https://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/themen/coronavirus/corona-todesfaelle-infektionen-100.html | 19:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/themen/coronavirus/corona-todesfaelle-infektionen-100.html | 19:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | HAHAHA >>But there are also doubts as to whether further limitations of wisdom are the last word<< well, I'd translate that slightly differently | 19:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | .tr <de der Weisheit letzter Schluss | 19:27 |
| Brainstorm | DocScrutinizer05, German to English: the last word of wisdom (MyMemory, Google) — The be-all and end-all of softness. (MateCat) — The sapience's last finish (Apertium) | 19:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>But there are also doubts as to whether further limitations the last word of wisdom<< | 19:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | +are | 19:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>Many are tired and then hit people Of course, sometimes too much.<< -> >>Many are tired and then get carried away<< | 19:32 |
| genera | sie werden auf einer Trage weggetragen? | 19:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | %tr <en >de to get carried away | 19:43 |
| Brainstorm | DocScrutinizer05, English to German: weggetragen werden (MyMemory, Google) — Zu bekommen getragen fort (Apertium) | 19:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meh | 19:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | die Beherrschung/die Fassung/den Kopf/die Nerven verlieren; außer sich geraten; sich vergessen sich zu etw. hinreißen lassen | 19:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | %tr <de über die Stränge schlagen | 19:46 |
| Brainstorm | DocScrutinizer05, German to English: Going over the limit (MyMemory, Google) — Over the skeins beat (Apertium) | 19:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | translating idioms is tricky | 19:49 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for France: +306 deaths (now 69571) since 21 hours ago | 19:59 |
| LjL | one million vaccinated in Italy! | 20:02 |
| LjL | ugh | 20:03 |
| LjL | at the same time, TV just said production of Pfizer will be delayed | 20:03 |
| LjL | a delay of 3-4 weeks because of "restructuring works" in the Belgian production plant | 20:03 |
| LjL | various EU leaders say "unacceptable situation" | 20:04 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Spain: +40197 cases (now 2.3 million), +235 deaths (now 53314) since 21 hours ago | 20:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: yeah, they want to ramp up the production machinery and that causes a temporary standstill until they finish work and start again with _higher_ production rate | 20:10 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, hmm... aren't there other plants that could supply vaccines in the meanwhile? | 20:11 |
| LjL | also | 20:11 |
| LjL | my mom said this as scary news without a source earlier | 20:12 |
| LjL | but now i see it's real https://norwaytoday.info/news/norwegian-medicines-agency-links-13-deaths-to-vaccine-side-effects-those-who-died-were-frail-and-old/amp/ | 20:12 |
| LjL | ugh, amp link without noticing, sorry, i hate those, just remove the /amp/ | 20:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I guess they might refine their reconstruction plans a bit until they actually have any impact, maybe throwing more money at it might result in less economical but shorter-maintenance-dropout plan | 20:12 |
| LjL | "The Norwegian Medicines Agency linked 13 deaths to the corona vaccine’s side effects. Those who died had two things in common – they were old and frail." | 20:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmmm | 20:13 |
| LjL | that's out of around 26000 vaccinated | 20:13 |
| LjL | in the trial, there were no deaths linked to the vaccine | 20:13 |
| LjL | and it was a similar number of people | 20:13 |
| LjL | so i'm afraid this shows (although we knew that) the "elderly" in the trial were probably overwhelmingly not-so-old, and healthy | 20:14 |
| LjL | but now the priority is vaccinating the very old and frail | 20:14 |
| LjL | so this is not good IMO | 20:14 |
| LjL | it's a fatality rate of 0.0005, but that's not so low for a vaccine, i think | 20:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | calculate: probability to die tomorrow when you're >90 * timespan observed for "relating to vaccination" monitoring | 20:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it seems difficult to distinguish between natural death and death caused by vaccination. More often than not the vaccination might have triggered it when it been pending anyway during next few weeks | 20:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as in "week heart" and then a tiny additional stress from otherwise harmless side effects suffices | 20:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I hope I don't sound cynical but this death rate is more than expected in "very old and frail" | 20:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when you watch a cohort of 10k "very old and frail" over a timespan of 4 weeks, how many will you see die no matter what the cohort is doing - be it vaccination or sitiing and watching TV | 20:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I seem to remember I heard of some dying minutes _before_ receiving first jab, maybe just of excitement | 20:24 |
| de-facto | PEI also found some deaths for very old and with serious disease in the ones that received vaccinations, but they said the rate of death was not raised or such | 20:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's... difficult | 20:26 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.pei.de/EN/newsroom/dossier/coronavirus/coronavirus-content.html?nn=164146&cms_pos=5 | 20:26 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.pei.de: Paul-Ehrlich-Institut - Dossier Coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19Coronavirus and COVID-19 | 20:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then... https://i.imgur.com/rwUU0rs.jpg | 20:27 |
| de-facto | .tr <de Todesfälle: Dem Paul-Ehrlich-Institut wurden sieben Todesfälle bei Patienten im Alter von 79 bis 93 Jahren (vier Frauen, drei Männer) in einem zeitlichen Abstand von 2,5 Stunden bis vier Tagen nach Impfung mitgeteilt. | 20:28 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto, German to English: Deaths: The Paul Ehrlich Institute was informed of seven deaths in patients between the ages of 79 and 93 (four women, three men) between 2.5 hours and four days after vaccination. (MyMemory, Google) [... want %more?] | 20:28 |
| de-facto | .tr <de Eine Patientin mit bekanntem Bluthochdruck und Diabetes verstarb an einer Lungenembolie und Herzkreislaufstillstand, bei den anderen Patienten ist die Todesursache unklar. | 20:29 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto, German to English: One patient with known high blood pressure and diabetes died of pulmonary embolism and cardiovascular arrest; the cause of death in the other patients is unclear. (MyMemory, Google) [... want %more?] | 20:29 |
| de-facto | .tr <de Alle Patienten hatten schwerwiegende Vorerkrankungen wie z.B. Karzinome, Niereninsuffizienz, Demenz vom Alzheimer Typ, Enzephalopathie, die vermutlich todesursächlich waren, allerdings stehen in einzelnen Fällen noch weitere Informationen aus. | 20:29 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto, German to English: All patients had serious previous illnesses such as carcinoma, renal insufficiency, dementia of the Alzheimer's type, encephalopathy, which were presumably the cause of death, although further information is still pending in individual cases. (MyMemory) [... want %more?] | 20:29 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, well i think i trust the Norwegian medical agency when they say that the deaths were due to vaccine side effects (even though the patients were also old and frail) | 20:29 |
| LjL | they didn't say "x people died after taking the vaccine and we don't know why" | 20:29 |
| de-facto | DocScrutinizer05, yeah your screenshot is the data from https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Cross-Section/Corona/Society/population_death.html | 20:30 |
| LjL | they said 26 died, and out of those, they have analyzed 13, and found that those 13 *are* from side effects of the vaccine | 20:30 |
| LjL | unless there is evidence to the contrary, i am inclined to believe them | 20:30 |
| de-facto | btw those numbers from PEI are based on 613347 vaccination doses given | 20:31 |
| de-facto | https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.pei.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/EN/newsroom-en/dossiers/safety-reports/safety-report-27-december-10-january-2020.pdf?__blob%3DpublicationFile%26v%3D3 | 20:32 |
| LjL | de-facto, there might be a difference in the types of people vaccinates, like maybe in Germany the *very* old and *very* frail aren't taking it, i don't know (although based on "Alle Patienten..." it sounds like they were) | 20:33 |
| LjL | anyway, the Norwegian datum, if confirmed, is worrisome, i think, it's not *huge*, but it's more than desirable | 20:34 |
| LjL | i honestly don't know where to get this information for Italy or other places | 20:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: I just say even pre-jab anxiety is a side effect of vaccination, possibly fatal to frail very old people and clearly related to the vaccination. The more some otherwise harmless side effects like mild fever etc | 20:36 |
| de-facto | LjL, i think the reactogenicity of the mRNA vaccines is above some other vaccines (i.e. they have more side-effects directly after receiving the shot) but also their immunogenicity (creating immunity against SARS-CoV-2 on longterm) is quite high. now if some elderly are in a fragile health state due to their comorbidities maybe taking the side effects in addition is too much for some? | 20:38 |
| de-facto | some might even die from transport etc if really fragile | 20:38 |
| yang | https://luch.by/en/kollektsii/chasdapamagats/ | 20:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | can't say what to conclude from "a mild fever side effevt of vacination is normally negligible except for very old and frail people who might die from it", but for sure you need to keep this in mind when thinking about it | 20:39 |
| de-facto | btw the reactogenicity is higher in younger people and also on second dose | 20:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 20:43 |
| de-facto | but younger people usually arent fragile, they just can easily take it | 20:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I think when very old people have an extremly higher risk to die from a covid infection then it's natural when they also have a higher risk for fatal side effects | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the ingection as well as vaccination side effects are prolly basically the same for old people, but they can'T cope with them like youngsters do | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | infection* | 20:46 |
| de-facto | we dont know that yet, from what PEI said there is no clear causative relation established yet, but we should keep an eye on these | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I even would guess the risk/benefit estimation for elederly is more in favor for vaccination than for the younger | 20:48 |
| de-facto | yes those in such a fragile state probably would have an extremely high risk to die from a SARS-CoV-2 infeciton | 20:49 |
| LjL | well, let's just say | 20:49 |
| LjL | if Pfizer turns out to have this effect, then we REALLY need to be careful with the J&J side effect profile | 20:49 |
| LjL | certainly we don't want to prove the people who say "more people will be hospitalized for the vaccines than for COVID" right | 20:50 |
| LjL | we want to vaccinate people, we want to do it somewhat aggressively, but a very sound risk/benefit evaluation should still be done. and yes, i think all side effects count if they end up causing death, even if they add up to comorbidities | 20:50 |
| LjL | otherwise it's the same fallacy as the people who say that COVID doesn't matter "because almost all of those who died were old and had comorbidities" | 20:51 |
| LjL | who cares, they wouldn't have died at that time without COVID. we really must treat the vaccines the same way, or it's an unfair comparison | 20:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | first I want to see detailed reports of each fatality | 20:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then we need to ponder how to protect the persons at risk from those effects | 20:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then evaluate the risk and tell the ones receiving the jab about | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wait, maybe all that been already done? | 20:58 |
| LjL | as far as i understand, Norway has | 20:58 |
| LjL | > “If you are very frail, you should probably not be vaccinated,” Steinar Madsen at the Norwegian Medicines Agency said at a webinar on corona vaccine for journalists on Thursday. | 20:58 |
| LjL | after "The Norwegian Medicines Agency and the National Institute of Public Health (FHI) jointly assess all side effects reports." | 20:59 |
| LjL | what "very frail" means... i suppose they will decide on specifics | 20:59 |
| LjL | as usual, it would be nice if the article linked to the relevant pages on those agencies' websites | 20:59 |
| LjL | they will be in norwegian, but who cares, we've got translators | 20:59 |
| LjL | what FHI of Norway says about the new update on "frail" people (i found the page) is | 21:03 |
| LjL | "For the vast majority of people who are elderly and live with frailty, any side effects of the vaccine will be more than offset by a reduced risk of becoming seriously ill from covid-19. However, for those with the most severe frailty, even relatively mild vaccine side effects can have serious consequences. For those who have a very short remaining life, the benefit of the vaccine may be marginal or irrelevant. Therefore, for very frail patients (eg | 21:03 |
| LjL | equivalent to Clinical Frailty Scale 8 or higher) and terminally ill patients, a careful balancing of benefit versus disadvantage of vaccination is recommended." | 21:03 |
| LjL | (translated from norwegian) | 21:03 |
| LjL | i suppose the "Clinical Frailty Scale" tries to provide some objectivity to this | 21:03 |
| LjL | one site defined Clinical Frailty Scale 8 as ""Completely dependent for personal care and approaching end of life. Typically, they could not recover even from a minor illness."" | 21:04 |
| LjL | but then we're vaccinating all of the care home residents first :| | 21:05 |
| LjL | here at least, those places host mostly(?) that kind of people. maybe in other places healthier people tend to go to retirement homes, too (i think of the "elderly suburbs" in Florida). but in italy, you are usually "very frail" if you're there | 21:06 |
| de-facto | of course, the benefit-to-risk ratio has to be clearly above 1 for each individual group, hence the importance to observe how the statistics develop, also for minorities | 21:18 |
| de-facto | hence the decision cant be generalized but must depend on 1) in which group (of relevant categories) a vaccination candidate is and 2) if there is reason for assuming (plausible) increased risk profiles in that group and of course 3) if there is already enough data available to come to a conclusive risk prediction | 21:20 |
| de-facto | that has to be estimated exactly in the same way for the risk emerging from an infection with SARS-CoV-2 and the associated risks from COVID | 21:21 |
| de-facto | then (hopefully) an informed decision could be made about the benefit-to-risk ratio | 21:22 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: COVID-19 exposure on flights is more common than you think. The US doesn't share details, but Canada does (10271 votes) | https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/airline-news/2021/01/15/covid-flight-information-airline-passengers-exposed-coronavirus/3905053001/ | https://redd.it/kxvt3i | 21:36 |
| de-facto | so why is quarantine after any passenger flight not absolutely mandatory without exceptions then? | 22:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I think >>Typically, they could not recover even from a minor illness.<< is a pretty narrow specification not applicable to 90% of frail old people | 22:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I faul to get the meaning of >>but then we're vaccinating all of the care home residents first<< | 22:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fail even | 22:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and re lockdown, honestly: SHUT DOWN OFFICES! NOW! if you want you may do home office | 22:13 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for United Kingdom: +55761 cases (now 3.3 million), +2457 deaths (now 87295) since 23 hours ago — France: +21428 cases (now 2.9 million), +471 deaths (now 69784) since 23 hours ago — Netherlands: +5184 cases (now 903917) since 20 hours ago | 22:22 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: The COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel’s Statement on the Use of Ivermectin for the Treatment of COVID-19 (81 votes) | https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/statement-on-ivermectin/ | https://redd.it/kxyyn9 | 22:55 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Rwanda: +257 cases (now 10573), +5 deaths (now 138) since 23 hours ago | 23:05 |
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