| LjL | i had understood you were feeling bad last night and you booked the test this morning, so i assumed the GP wasn't involved | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| pwr22 | <LjL "Peter, did you have to get your "> I just filled in a form online whilst I was in my morning meeting | 00:00 |
| pwr22 | Then announced in the meeting I would be out for the covid test I just booked for right after lol | 00:00 |
| pwr22 | It was very easy | 00:01 |
| pwr22 | I also get the feeling they would have tested me there if I just turned up without booking anything lol | 00:01 |
| pwr22 | I got the test because I've had a cough brewing since thursday and I am gonna end up meeting in person with a work colleague some time this week | 00:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Russian-made Sputnik V and EpiVacCorona vaccines are effective against UK variant of coronavirus – watchdog → https://is.gd/DGeKPV | 00:04 |
| LjL | pwr22, sounds like things are working relatively smoothly then considering the UK situation is not great per se | 00:07 |
| pwr22 | Yeah | 00:09 |
| pwr22 | testing seems to be good | 00:10 |
| pwr22 | Plus I had the luxury of the helpful assistant asking "Did you do you tonsils and your schnozz?" | 00:10 |
| LjL | three municipalities in Lombardy are going "red zone" even though Lombardy itself is "yellow" | 00:11 |
| LjL | because they have clusters of variants | 00:11 |
| LjL | %w schnozz | 00:11 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, schnozz — noun: 1. (slang) Nose → https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/schnozz | 00:11 |
| LjL | pwr22, "your"? i'm confused, surely someone else would be doing the swab | 00:12 |
| LjL | %title https://www.newscientist.com/article/2268014-exclusive-two-variants-have-merged-into-heavily-mutated-coronavirus/ | 00:16 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From www.newscientist.com: Exclusive: Two variants have merged into heavily mutated coronavirus | New Scientist | 00:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Two variants have merged into heavily mutated Coronavirus → https://is.gd/jvVpqV | 00:16 |
| pwr22 | <LjL "Peter, "your"? i'm confused, sur"> You usually do it yourself | 00:20 |
| LjL | O.o | 00:20 |
| LjL | not here | 00:20 |
| LjL | i think de-facto too had it done by others... the nose swab in particular has to be done in a certain way to reach the right sinuses AFAIK | 00:21 |
| LjL | the way people voted on this thread are idiotic, i hope it's not representative of r/coronavirus in general https://np.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/llc89m/exclusive_two_variants_have_merged_into_heavily/gnozw9k/ | 00:26 |
| LjL | they are basically upvoting the concept that the variants situation is "fine" and that there have always been variants and it's no different now, just with press hyping it up | 00:26 |
| LjL | which is absolute nonsense | 00:26 |
| LjL | i wanted to link to https://virological.org/t/the-emergence-and-ongoing-convergent-evolution-of-the-n501y-lineages-coincided-with-a-major-global-shift-in-the-sars-cov-2-selective-landscape/618 to corroborate that but my post was auto-deleted because apparently news agencies are okay but virological forums aren't | 00:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | .tr <de "wir haben uns verabredet wir tun alles dass wir unter 50 kommen da sind wir auf gutem Wege die ersten Bundesländer Rheinland-Pfalz und Baden-Württemberg haben das schon erreicht die anderen werden es die nächsten Tage erreichen wenn die Entwicklung so weitergeht" | 00:27 |
| Brainstorm | DocScrutinizer05, German to English: "We have agreed we do everything we can to get under 50 because we are on the right track the first federal states rhineland-Palatinate and Baden-Württemberg have already achieved the others will reach it in the next few days if the development continues like this" (MyMemory) [... want %more?] | 00:27 |
| LjL | but anyway other people are saying the same things, linking to the NERVTAG document that confirms the UK variant is more severe for instance, and getting downvoted | 00:27 |
| LjL | bah | 00:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | .tr <de ... sagt Laschet an dem Tag an dem das erste mal seit monaten der inzidenzwert **hoeher** liegt als 7 tage zuvor | 00:27 |
| Brainstorm | DocScrutinizer05, German to English: ... says Laschet on the day on which for the first time in months the incidence value **hoeher** is higher than 7 days earlier (MyMemory) — ... says Laschet on the day on which, for the first time in months, the incidence value is ** higher ** than 7 days before (Google) [... want %more?] | 00:27 |
| LjL | under 50 what? | 00:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | /100k7d | 00:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: COVID-19: India begins vaccine roll-out and aims to administer 300 million jabs by August | World News → https://is.gd/BbwKZN | 00:28 |
| LjL | oh, that's not a metric i've often used, so i don't really have a sense for it | 00:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the "joke" is the contrast between >>if the development continues like this<< and the same day incidence being higher than 7 days before | 00:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | from out new leader of conservative party and probably next chancelor | 00:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in my town here in bavaria, incidences/100k7d are stagnating since almsot 2 weeks already | 00:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | around 85 | 00:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nobody dares to guess why - I have an idea though what to blame | 00:33 |
| LjL | some person on TV (sorry) is saying that for vaccines being evaluated by EMA, namely Novovax and J&J, they are seeing less efficacy on the SA variant | 00:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I just heard that J&J has 85% efficacy for *severe cases* | 00:34 |
| LjL | pfft they find all the possible ways to circumscribe the dataset to whichever group of people gives them high efficacy | 00:35 |
| LjL | anyway this statement was specifically on the variants, he said nothing about general efficacy | 00:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's still... OKish if instead of 100 only 15 die from corona, but... not faintly on par with "israel: no fatality in >500k vaccinated people" | 00:35 |
| LjL | i'm sorry i did not manage to see the name of this person when they came on screen | 00:35 |
| LjL | since, like, i don't know how he knows about the data the EMA are seeing | 00:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oh, sorry, I'm completely "off topic" missed the context | 00:37 |
| LjL | no no | 00:37 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, i'd settle for "okayish" if it weren't for the fact that with the variants, it's likely to be much worse | 00:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 00:37 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, you say we should just be patient and not act like "we want the vaccine first", at least you did the other night when i snapped a little, but meanwhile today i see Moderna pledges to give the US 300 million by June (100 in April, 100 May, 100 June)... and the EU? am i just not hearing the gargantuan efforts to give us >300 million viruses by summer too? or is it being *slightly* slower, *and* with vaccines that don't work as well | 00:39 |
| LjL | with the variants it's not just a matter of patience, i think, it's a matter of the vaccines even being *relevant anymore* by the time we have them | 00:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm all with you that vaccine allocation, production and distribution is a cesspool | 00:40 |
| de-facto | we would need some kind of ongoing test not only for safety but also for efficacy since new variants will continue to arise and risk to benefit ratio not only depends on risks but also on benefit (for the current thread by current VOCs) | 00:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | de-facto: ++ | 00:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Lancet (Online): [Department of Error] Department of Error: Zarocostas J. WHO team begins COVID-19 origin investigation. Lancet 2021; 397: 459—In this World Report, the description of the investigation team was incorrect. It should have read: “…also five WHO experts, two representatives from the Food and Agriculture Organization, and [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/cHrJVA | 00:41 |
| LjL | yes, that's why i say that at least in principle, i wouldn't accept astrazeneca today | 00:42 |
| LjL | simply because i believe that the SA variant is already here and will easily prevail | 00:42 |
| LjL | and AZ has zero efficacy on it | 00:42 |
| LjL | so even if it has low risks, is it worth it? | 00:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and "murrica first" now re-joining the leage of uncivilized nations since a few weeks doesn't help fix what been done and went wrong with vaccine production especially in USA but also UK in the last 12 months | 00:42 |
| de-facto | the risk may depend more on the vaccine platform (mRNA, viral vector, adjuvants etc) while the benefit (of protection against current VOCs) will more depend on the exact structure of the antigen (s-protein taken from a specific variant) in the vaccine | 00:43 |
| LjL | and now if it's true that two variants have been witnessed to merge, well recombination definitely seems like something "of concern" | 00:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I wonder if that's "merge" or convergence | 00:44 |
| LjL | de-facto, but it also may depend on the antibody tithers. my impression is that the mRNA vaccines work better against the variants simply because they cause a stronger immune reaction, so there are still fewer neutralizing antibodies against at least the SA variant, but it may still be enough | 00:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't know of sth like "merge" for this virus, though in theory it _might_ be possible | 00:44 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, well according to the article it's a first. https://www.newscientist.com/article/2268014-exclusive-two-variants-have-merged-into-heavily-mutated-coronavirus/ | 00:45 |
| LjL | first observed, anyway | 00:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's interesting, did they explain how it works for corona? | 00:45 |
| LjL | no, just generic recombination, but they say it's how the virus is believed to have originated to begin with | 00:46 |
| de-facto | LjL, yeah that indeed could be the case, but antibodies are only one branch of the immune reaction and different vaccine platforms may also possibly have different impact on different branches of the immune system answers | 00:46 |
| LjL | (although i still don't buy the WHO story but whatever) | 00:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "virus sex"? (don't laugh, it's a thing) | 00:46 |
| LjL | well they don't have genders but recombination is something like that i guess | 00:47 |
| LjL | a person gets infected with two variants, and the pieces get put together to create a variant that merges bits of both | 00:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't exactly understand how the merging happens. " types of virus in same cell? | 00:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 2 types* | 00:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and then? | 00:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | DNA of both getting chopped and recombines? | 00:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | really just wondering | 00:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I wanna know | 00:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe I'm a tad dull today and sub par. Tooth extraction, slightly disturbing experience | 00:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | de-facto: what's your test result? | 00:51 |
| de-facto | negative | 00:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | \o/ | 00:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cure your cold then :-) | 00:52 |
| de-facto | yeah i still will distance though | 00:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I might go doing sth completely cracy now: night walk. I'm allowed to, since yesterday \o/ | 00:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then, a 6h ago we had official JATWARN disaster warning "don't leave home, big fire with toxic smoke outside" *headdesk* | 00:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | KATWARN* | 00:55 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, i don't know, i'm not a virologist, i'm just reading the article like you, and i've heard of recombination many times but i don't know the actual process | 00:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | gonna ask my epidemiologist, maybe he knows of biology as well :-D | 00:56 |
| LjL | tooth extraction is bleh, just a few days ago i had a tiny piee of tooth bone poke out of my gums until it got out entirely :( and that's like... two months after the extraction | 00:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | OUCH | 00:57 |
| LjL | it wasn't painful, just... weird. and slightly scary | 00:57 |
| LjL | i get scared easily by health things | 00:57 |
| de-facto | DocScrutinizer05, called for appointment with GP, they arranged, waited outdoors then directly went in separate room and GP did ask some questions (in full protective gear), then they print out a QR code and GP took the nose swab and some general tests (hearing me breathing and my heart with a stethoscope etc), i scanned QR code with CW-App and got my result 8h later, really fast and smooth | 00:58 |
| LjL | now i have some sort of, i dunno, maybe blepharitis on my eyelid, it itches, i'm kinda panicking. most people would go "meh, what a bother", but without panicking for something like that. instead i have this reaction, plus, now, with covid, going to see a doctor is a risk so i worry^2 | 00:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | my tooth dentist told me "looong root", then I watched it when it was out: this was 60% root and 40% glas fiber and plastic coming out of the root and going into the flesch like a tree | 00:58 |
| de-facto | DocScrutinizer05, i use NINA app for official alerts | 00:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | both | 00:59 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, oooh that was like mine, he said the same thing, except when he said "wanna see?" i was like "ugh no thanks". but he said he went very slowly because the root almost went into the nasal sinus, and if he'd break it he wouldn't be able to get at it again | 00:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.nordbayern.de/region/nuernberg/grossbrand-feuer-flammt-wieder-auf-rauch-breitet-sich-in-nurnberg-und-furth-aus-1.10847497 | 00:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, completely OT | 01:00 |
| de-facto | oh you got an extraction today DocScrutinizer05 ? hope you are fine | 01:01 |
| Brainstorm | New preprint: Progress Towards a Large-Scale Synthesis of Molnupiravir (MK-4482, EIDD-2801) from Cytidine by Grace P. Ahlqvist et al, made available as preprint on 2021-02-16 at https://api.figshare.com/v2/articles/13809527 | 01:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's quite disturbing when the root of a tooth looks like a broccoli growing on a termite mound | 01:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | de-facto: well, a tad dizzy still | 01:03 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, why did you need it extracted, did it get infiltrated by more cavities, or did it just break for no reason like mine? | 01:04 |
| de-facto | DocScrutinizer05, congratz for having it done though, i am always scared of such things (without proper reason) | 01:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | was a jacket crown with cavity into root | 01:05 |
| LjL | ah | 01:05 |
| LjL | i didn't have a crown on my tooth, i'm really not sure why, because it had had a root canal and then it was retouched multiple times | 01:06 |
| LjL | so i feel if they had put a crown on it, maybe it wouldn't have broken like that | 01:06 |
| LjL | which was pretty creepy, feeling this tooth slowly crack open | 01:06 |
| LjL | and then one day i forgot about it for a second and chewed on it and OUCH and CRACK | 01:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | de-facto: I also was quite unusually and uncomfortably anxious. Then it took just 10 minutes and no complications at all, not even those the dentist expected | 01:06 |
| pigughs | LjL: might be a stye warm compresses | 01:06 |
| de-facto | DocScrutinizer05, glad to hear that it went smoothly | 01:07 |
| LjL | pigughs, uhm... it kinda looks like one i guess, it's right on the edge of the eyelid. but the strange thing is it doesn't itch* there*, it itches like near the top of my nose instead | 01:08 |
| pigughs | well, i'm guessing, but except for the nose, i've had same thing, just frequent compresses and watchful waiting | 01:23 |
| LjL | pigughs, either that, or a chalazion, based on what i've google after you said stye... both would fit because i've had a blepharitis before, it went away with antibiotics, but then i had some other rash on the eyelid that i couldn't get seen because we were already in COVID emergency, and after that went away, the eyes didn't really feel the same again, they were always kinda itchy. which i think (from what i've understood) can be what a blepharitis that | 01:31 |
| LjL | stays around acts like. | 01:31 |
| LjL | anyway calm the fuck down LjL, it's just a bump on an eye, i feel like i've just found a malignant tumor | 01:32 |
| pigughs | MD here would probably re-subscribe antibiotics by phone, if there is a history | 01:43 |
| LjL | i was probably seen by ophthalmologist (the GP always sends you to specialists over here), i'll give a look at the papers | 01:54 |
| LjL | But... Ophthalmologists here raise your haaaaands! :P https://pic.infini.fr/oofcgksr/c7sMXPyH | 01:58 |
| LjL | So much for my own notice that the channel doesn't provide medical advice | 01:58 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dr_6w-WPr0w <-- old yet still quite interesting about NAC | 02:11 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.youtube.com: Coronavirus Pandemic Update 69: "NAC" Supplementation and COVID-19 (N-Acetylcysteine) - YouTube | 02:11 |
| LjL | i took some NAC yesterday because of some sinusitis, i planned to take it again tonight, but i think i'll skip it because i want the option of taking paracetamol for better sleep in case the eye gets worse and makes me mad :P | 02:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Attacks Against Asian Americans Spike Amid COVID-19 Pandemic → https://is.gd/Vc5Ar6 | 02:19 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for France: +4905 cases (now 3.5 million), +512 deaths (now 82812) since 18 hours ago — Netherlands: +1398 cases (now 1.0 million) since 22 hours ago — United Kingdom: +7758 cases (now 4.1 million) since 22 hours ago — Germany: +587 deaths (now 66536) since 17 hours ago | 02:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Covid: How will we know if the vaccine is working?: Deaths are falling faster for the over-80s - but does that mean the vaccine is working? → https://is.gd/BvwuPf | 03:21 |
| LjL | vaccinate 1) most of the population, 2) with a vaccine that's reliable (mRNA) | 03:26 |
| LjL | then you'll know easily | 03:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: 'It's not fair.' Mexico will file complaint at UN over unequal vaccine distribution → https://is.gd/1IHVmJ | 04:48 |
| CoronaBot | /r/coronavirus: Moderna expects to supply second 100 million vaccine doses to U.S. by May-end (10010 votes) | https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-moderna-idUSKBN2AG1NK | https://redd.it/ll6oi1 | 05:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: After 3 days of lockdown due to 3 Covid cases in the community. New Zealand’s largest city Auckland to drop to alert level 2, rest of country to Alert level 1. → https://is.gd/LpQHaM | 05:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Japan begins COVID-19 vaccination drive amid supply worry → https://is.gd/mWPIE7 | 05:26 |
| whytek | Ljl | 05:33 |
| whytek | hot / cold is the treatment for that. | 05:34 |
| whytek | lie down, relax, gently massage with a tea bag that is /almost/ to hot to place on the skin | 05:34 |
| whytek | when it cools, dip it back in the cup of tea. | 05:34 |
| whytek | don't drink the tea :) | 05:35 |
| whytek | ^^^ that's not medical advice ;) | 05:35 |
| whytek | do that a few times.. . | 05:35 |
| whytek | then do it again a few hours later. | 05:35 |
| whytek | don't freak if it doesn't clear up instantly. | 05:36 |
| whytek | BTW, stress and too much screens will eventually give me a condition like you describe every time. | 05:37 |
| whytek | ah.. pigughs already said same. | 05:42 |
| whytek | anyway... judging by this channel, you are spending FAR TOO MUCH time at a screen. | 05:42 |
| whytek | your body is just saying take a break. | 05:42 |
| whytek | If it is a stye, and you're brave... and you want to get rid of it really quickly, you /could/ put some lemon juice in that eye. | 05:42 |
| * whytek ducks | 05:42 | |
| whytek | I used to have a cream that was for insect bites or something, it was made in UK, it would clear up styes everytime without fail. | 05:42 |
| whytek | main "active" ingredient was tea tree oil.. but also witch hazel | 05:42 |
| LjL | eeep i wouldn't put scary things in my eyes if i were you | 05:42 |
| LjL | but it's true i'm very stressed and anxious. i'm always like that, but these days, it's really hard not to be | 05:43 |
| whytek | Seems it was a perfect combination to dilate the ducts or whatever they are where those infections live, and also to neutralize the bacterias.. styes are notorious for speading from eye to eye and around the eye. | 05:43 |
| whytek | Yeah.. I suppose we all are. | 05:43 |
| LjL | i don't think it's a stye from what i've understood by reading around because styes *hurt*. this thing doesn't hurt, i only have itching in a slightly different place | 05:43 |
| whytek | Lack of excercise is getting to me the most.. not that I was a big exerciser. so any loss is too much | 05:43 |
| LjL | so maybe a chalazion, or i don't know what | 05:44 |
| whytek | I've had styes that don't "hurt" | 05:44 |
| LjL | well, i have some eye wipes that contain a small amount of disinfectant, which are made for blepharitis. i've one on the eye while keeping it warm. | 05:44 |
| LjL | i've put one* | 05:45 |
| LjL | for a few minutes | 05:45 |
| LjL | i guess i'll do it again now | 05:45 |
| LjL | anyway i'm calmer now, earlier i was freaking out because... i don't know, because i'm like this | 05:45 |
| whytek | becasue you're stressed... ? | 05:45 |
| whytek | stress begets stress... | 05:45 |
| whytek | chill :) | 05:45 |
| whytek | do the warm compress... | 05:46 |
| whytek | close the eyes.. | 05:46 |
| whytek | dream of summer beaches in tuscany or someplace :) | 05:46 |
| LjL | heh | 05:46 |
| LjL | i'll dream of taking the train | 05:46 |
| whytek | yeah! | 05:46 |
| whytek | trains! | 05:46 |
| whytek | can't wait | 05:46 |
| whytek | I love trains. | 05:47 |
| LjL | i have a lovehate relationship with them | 05:47 |
| LjL | but i miss taking them | 05:47 |
| LjL | if we don't make sense of these variants i don't know when things will be safe enough again | 05:47 |
| LjL | that doesn't help with stress either | 05:48 |
| LjL | i usually don't exercise either... i used to have long walks, though. now i have a treadmill | 05:48 |
| LjL | i think maybe this eye infection/irritation/whatever is from the sweat from treadmilling | 05:48 |
| LjL | it's a bit gross but my face/head just sweats a lot, and it gets into my eyes sometimes | 05:49 |
| LjL | or at least irritates the skin around them | 05:49 |
| LjL | maybe in the next few days i'll just use it for walking without trying to run | 05:49 |
| whytek | Maybe.. long walks inside is not the same as long walks outside.. | 05:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: COVID-linked syndrome in children is growing and cases are more severe → https://is.gd/IQnkB9 | 06:14 |
| gigasu_shida | has anyone found any medication that unclogs those crazy eye oil glands? | 06:18 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Belgium: +1717 cases (now 741205), +48 deaths (now 21750) since 23 hours ago — New Zealand: +3 cases (now 2340) since 23 hours ago | 06:24 |
| whytek | gigasu_shida, Well I just mentioned one, but not allopathically sancioned | 06:27 |
| whytek | oh apparently it is still available in the UK https://www.laneshealth.com/content/our-brands/teangi-tea-tree.html | 06:27 |
| whytek | But probably not a good idea to put tha tin your eyes. | 06:28 |
| gigasu_shida | tea tree oil burns | 06:28 |
| gigasu_shida | it causes a burning sensation at high concentrations | 06:29 |
| Brainstorm | New preprint: Community end-of-life care during the COVID-19 pandemic: Initial findings of a UK primary care survey by Sarah Mitchell et al, made available as preprint on 2021-02-16 at https://medrxiv.org/cgi/content/short/2021.02.15.21251756 [... want %more?] | 07:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Indonesia makes Covid-19 vaccines compulsory, allows private vaccination → https://is.gd/Q9X51o | 07:29 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Rio de Janeiro, Brazil: +8385 cases (now 563926), +118 deaths (now 31630) since a day ago — France: +14702 cases (now 3.5 million) since 12 hours ago — United Kingdom: +5931 cases (now 4.1 million), +113 deaths (now 118308) since 14 hours ago — Lombardy, Italy: +1696 cases (now 565719), +38 deaths (now 27854) since a day ago | 08:22 |
| CoronaBot | /r/covid19: Carrageenan containing over-the-counter nasal and oral sprays inhibit SARS-CoV-2 infection of airway epithelial cultures (80 votes) | https://journals.physiology.org/doi/abs/10.1152/ajplung.00552.2020 | https://redd.it/llb1jg | 08:27 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: New Nigerian Covid mutation that may be vaccine-resistant infects 38 people in UK → https://is.gd/oEuIwW | 08:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | February 17, 2021: The World Health Organization maintains up-to-date and global information. Please refer to our Wiki for additional information. You can find answers to frequently asked questions about Covid-19 and vaccines in our FAQ . → https://is.gd/iek5mf | 09:08 |
| whytek | gigasu_shida, indeed. | 09:15 |
| whytek | As a rule, Never put neat (or even diluted) tea tree oil on your body. | 09:16 |
| whytek | that cream "stings" and makes the eyes water, but, for some reason... it cleared up those things in a few hours. | 09:17 |
| whytek | but I do not recommend it | 09:17 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: New Zealand ends lockdown after deciding outbreak contained: A lockdown in the New Zealand city of Auckland will end at midnight, the government announced Wednesday after concluding a coronavirus outbreak had been contained. → https://is.gd/zneaJw | 09:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from Il Sole 24 Ore: Coronavirus, perché i tre maggiori produttori di vaccini hanno fallito: GlaxoSmithKline, Merck e Sanofi hanno ceduto il passo ad aziende biotecnologiche come Moderna e BioNTech. La tecnologia a mRNA ha fatto la differenza e ora sta per cambiare per sempre il mondo dei vaccini → https://is.gd/KkcwEQ | 10:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: New Zealand ends lockdown after deciding outbreak contained → https://is.gd/YLVstQ | 10:15 |
| gigasu_shida | ok thanks whytek. lemon juice also burns but it helps | 10:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: COVID-19 bill would scale up ability to spot virus mutations → https://is.gd/xgFHWc | 10:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Health: The myth of ‘good’ and ‘bad’ Covid vaccines: Why false perceptions overlook facts, and could breed resentment → https://is.gd/VXEWHG | 10:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: David Oliver: Lack of PPE betrays NHS clinical staff: The failure to provide adequate personal protective equipment (PPE) to health and social care workers during the pandemic has highlighted the disintegration of any culture of integrity, transparency,... → https://is.gd/tSscbs | 11:04 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Antigua and Barb.: +43 cases (now 486), +1 deaths (now 10) since a day ago | 11:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Sweden readying to close gyms, restaurants, hair salons: Sweden, known for its softer approach to the pandemic, is preparing to use new legislation to close gyms, restaurants and hair salons ahead of a feared third wave of virus infections, the government said Wednesday. → https://is.gd/jibiuF | 11:42 |
| bonz060 | %help | 11:48 |
| Brainstorm | bonz060: Hi, I am LjL's bot! Say %modules or %commands to me in private to see my features. | 11:48 |
| bonz060 | %commands | 11:48 |
| Brainstorm | bonz060, all exposed commands: act, anagrams, ask, bible, book, bug, commands, count, dick, echo, evaluate, geo, grammar, greet, help, language_code, language_identify, languages, last, link_get, link_put, lojban, modules, more, morphology, onelook, phonology_change, ping, pronunciation, search, seen, spell, spell2, stock, subscribe [... want %more?] (try %help <command>, or %modules for a directory) | 11:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from Emma Hodcroft: @firefoxx66: Variant names can be confusing. Most are based on info useful for scientists (B.1.1.7 501Y.V1) but there's some lightness in there!From mutations Doug & Eek to variants Pelican & Mockingbird, nicknames can be a useful shorthand sometimes!With [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/M9Wmvh | 13:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from Virological.org: Latest posts: Tracking SARS-CoV-2 VOC 202012/01 (lineage B.1.1.7) dissemination in Portugal: insights from nationwide RT-PCR Spike gene drop out data: Update information including data from week 6, 2021 Weekly proportion of SGTF and SGTL positive samples among all TaqPath positive samples detected, between week 49 (2020) and [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/0OiqnV | 13:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: PM Johnson charting path to reopen UK economy within months → https://is.gd/CEaOst | 13:41 |
| CoronaBot | /r/covid19: A genomic region associated with protection against severe COVID-19 is inherited from Neandertals (81 votes) | https://www.pnas.org/content/118/9/e2026309118 | https://redd.it/llcc31 | 13:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: UK study that will infect volunteers with COVID approved: A study which will expose volunteers to the coronavirus is to begin in Britain within a month after it gained approval from the country's clinical ethics body, the government said on Wednesday. → https://is.gd/Nmc6nZ | 14:17 |
| CoronaBot | /r/coronavirus: Seattle woman, 90, walks 6 miles through snow for vaccine (10034 votes) | https://apnews.com/article/seattle-storms-coronavirus-pandemic-2527c61138a14a5229c03bd221419196 | https://redd.it/llbn0i | 14:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: 5 things you need to know about the AstraZeneca vaccine: The Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) yesterday announced it has provisionally approved AstraZeneca's COVID vaccine for use in Australia. → https://is.gd/DLDQtR | 14:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Vaccination: The COVID vaccine is here. When and to whom will we need to prove we've had it? → https://is.gd/L7lrVQ | 14:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: EU hails deals to get more vaccine shots, tackle variants: The European Union announced Wednesday that it has agreed to buy a further 300 million doses of Moderna's vaccine against COVID-19 and was injecting almost a quarter of a billion euros (almost $300 million) into efforts to counter the threat of coronavirus variants that [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/F32jar | 15:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Long COVID: A public health expert's campaign to understand the disease: On March 20 2020, while the UK was anticipating its first national lockdown to control the coronavirus pandemic, I started feeling unwell with what felt like a COVID-19 infection. → https://is.gd/zlcVBZ | 15:21 |
| CoronaBot | /r/covid19: EMA receives application for conditional marketing authorisation of COVID-19 Vaccine Janssen (80 votes) | https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/ema-receives-application-conditional-marketing-authorisation-covid-19-vaccine-janssen | https://redd.it/ll7kt8 | 15:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Pharma: STAT+: Pharmalittle: First Covid-19 human challenge study to begin; vaccine firm executives profit from insider stock sales → https://is.gd/R6Et2n | 15:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Vaccinating children: Is COVID-19 herd immunity possible without them?: It may be summer before children under 16 can be vaccinated against COVID-19 in the United States. That's a problem for reaching herd immunity quickly. → https://is.gd/Ld8zM3 | 15:58 |
| CoronaBot | /r/covid19: The influence of temperature, humidity, and simulated sunlight on the infectivity of SARS-CoV-2 in aerosols (82 votes) | https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02786826.2020.1829536?src=recsys | https://redd.it/llopfg | 16:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): COVID19: World's first coronavirus Human Challenge study receives ethics approval in the UK → https://is.gd/7V13wk | 16:56 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Germany: +7106 cases (now 2.4 million) since 22 hours ago — Switzerland: +1253 cases (now 545535), +21 deaths (now 9838) since 14 hours ago — Barbados: +189 cases (now 2457), +3 deaths (now 28) since 18 hours ago — Netherlands: +59 deaths (now 14999) since 22 hours ago | 16:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | mhm! >>The time needed for a 90% decrease in infectious virus ranged from 4.8 min at 40 °C, 20% relative humidity, and high intensity simulated sunlight representative of noon on a clear day on the summer solstice at 40°N latitude, to greater than two hours under conditions representative of those expected indoors or at night.<< [The influence of temperature, humidity, and simulated sunlight on the infectivity of SARS-CoV-2 in | 17:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aerosols (82 votes) | https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02786826.2020.1829536?src=recsys] | 17:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: ^^^ relevant for resources? | 17:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's hardly any doubt left about why we see seasonal modulation | 17:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I always suspected sun | 17:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from Shane Crotty: @profshanecrotty: This is an excellent article of the current status in the USA, by @sciencecohen https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/02/how-soon-will-covid-19-vaccines-return-life-normal → https://is.gd/hjqXsc | 17:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Anesthetic & Surgical Protocol for Emergency Surgeries During the Era of COVID-19 → https://is.gd/W69XDV | 17:55 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for United Kingdom: +11818 cases (now 4.1 million), +567 deaths (now 118762) since 15 hours ago — Italy: +369 deaths (now 94540) since 22 hours ago | 18:06 |
| de-facto | Weirdly enough in Germany the incidence between 2021-01-12 and 2021-02-12 declined from ~17960 to ~7017 more or less in a linear way of ~353 less new infections each day | 18:10 |
| de-facto | normally it should be an exponential decay with R<1, so maybe that means an exponential increase (e.g. by B.1.1.7) of a part of new infections contributes to incidence that makes the decline more or less linear? | 18:11 |
| CoronaBot | /r/covid19: World's first coronavirus Human Challenge study receives ethics approval in the UK (86 votes) | https://www.gov.uk/government/news/worlds-first-coronavirus-human-challenge-study-receives-ethics-approval-in-the-uk | https://redd.it/llw5cu | 18:12 |
| de-facto | .title https://imgur.com/a/LSYOAQO https://i.imgur.com/XivF6Mn.png | 18:22 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From imgur.com: COVID-19 Germany: Daily Incidence - Album on Imgur | 18:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Covid-19: Self-isolation is the weakest link in stopping transmission: At last the weakest link in the chain of covid-19 transmission—self-isolation—is getting the attention it deserves.1 Cevik and colleagues say that “risk of household transmission within crowded and... → https://is.gd/1GsdSf | 18:29 |
| lazysundaydreams | %cases Czechia | 18:40 |
| Brainstorm | lazysundaydreams: In Czechia, there have been 1.1 million confirmed cases (10.4% of the population) and 18596 deaths (1.7% of cases) as of 9 hours ago. 7.2 million tests were performed (15.5% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.1% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 1.8% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Czechia for time series data. | 18:40 |
| Arsanerit | %cases Eswatini | 18:42 |
| Brainstorm | Arsanerit: In Eswatini, there have been 16606 confirmed cases (1.5% of the population) and 634 deaths (3.8% of cases) as of 14 hours ago. 146448 tests were performed (11.3% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.5% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 4.9% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Eswatini for time series data. | 18:42 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05: yeah sounds like I should add that one since it looks at infectious virus (cultured in cells) whereas most of these aerosol studies only look at viral RNA and thy say "we have no idea if it's still infectious), although this study also seems to leave open the questions of how much virus people typically shed, and how much is needed for infection (but that should be fixed by that wonderful, and totally ethical, challenge study the UK is going | 18:44 |
| LjL | to run!) | 18:44 |
| LjL | An Italian virologist was asked (not out of the blue, in context) how it makes sense to vaccinate people with vaccines that have 60% efficacy and she answered "Really it doesn't make much sense. It makes sense in situations when that's all we have, like flu vaccines have 50% efficacy and that's we have and we use it, but in this case there is an ethical dilemma" | 18:55 |
| LjL | She also mentioned that "if we aren't careful" (how to be careful exactly?), then vaccines with low efficacy could actually cause new mutations. Remind you of anything DocScrutinizer05? | 18:57 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Canada: +4394 cases (now 834172), +89 deaths (now 21410) since 23 hours ago | 19:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: yes, like I said >>just too plausible and obvious to be considered by politics<< :-/ | 19:31 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, i haven't seen it considered at all, though. when i asked people who i thought could know whether this is a process that could actually take place in the context of a vaccine trial, they were either dismissive ("i don't see how...") or nebulous ("many things could happen, but...") | 19:33 |
| LjL | not sure if i asked yuriwho, probably did, i asked someone else though | 19:33 |
| LjL | i'll add your link before i forge | 19:34 |
| pwr22 | LjL: do we have any concrete data yet on the AZ vaccine and the SA variant of SARS-COV-2 | 19:40 |
| pwr22 | ? | 19:40 |
| LjL | pwr22, yes, it doesn't work :( | 19:40 |
| pwr22 | Oh no, can you link me to some data? | 19:40 |
| LjL | pwr22, i'll grab the study, but it was roughly 2000 people who took AZ and 2000 people who took placebo and in both cases, around 20 of them got infected | 19:40 |
| LjL | yes, give me a minute | 19:40 |
| pwr22 | Ah, but does it effect the severity though? | 19:41 |
| pwr22 | And does the result differ from the other vaccines? | 19:41 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Recent Commits to links:master: Add study on viability (length of time thereof) in summer vs indoors/… ( https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/commit/6bd5c23d5130368a801621db1f2c82a5f271f62f ) | 19:42 | |
| LjL | pwr22, i think AZ initially tried to say it still protects from severe cases, but then they dropped it when it was pointed out that those 20 people were young and healthy, so really just because none of them ended up dead / hospitalized, you can't say much based on such a small sample. for the other vaccines, no similar study was made, but an in vitro study on i think both Pfizer and Moderna showed that the antibody titers reduced a lot, but were | 19:44 |
| LjL | *probably* still sufficient (keyword probably since it was in vitro, but given that the mRNA vaccines in general seem to produce a stronger response, i'm hopeful) | 19:44 |
| pwr22 | Hmm, I wouldn't consider that strong evidence for AZ working better than the others myself but it is potentially quite concerning that way | 19:45 |
| pwr22 | And just in general wrt vaccines vs SA covid | 19:45 |
| LjL | pwr22, actually https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/02/south-africa-suspends-use-astrazenecas-covid-19-vaccine-after-it-fails-clearly-stop (it was announced that SA would stop using AstraZeneca, then i *think* they reversed the decision but i'm not sure, that's hearsay) does say that "The vaccines’ efficacy against mild disease in South Africa was 57% for J&J and 49% for Novavax—lower than in any other country they were tested" so there's s | 19:46 |
| LjL | ome tentative information about some other vaccines too | 19:46 |
| LjL | (still looking for the 2000+2000 study though, i found that sciencemag thing by grepping logs) | 19:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | weird! >>The decay rate of coronavirus 229E was significantly greater at either 80% or 30% relative humidity compared to 50% relative humidity<< | 19:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so that finally explains why, thanks to contradicting info, I never got a clear idea about whether sars-cov2 hates dry or humid air | 19:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | now I learned it's both :-D | 19:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for indoors <30% seems much more feasible during winter season than >80% | 19:55 |
| LjL | pwr22, sorry, it's been longer than a minute... so far i've found only this which is pretty much just a press release https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-02-07-chadox1-ncov-19-provides-minimal-protection-against-mild-moderate-covid-19-infection - i think the search is made a little harder by the fact that this study made news, including the rough amount of people involved and infected, one day *before* it was published even as preprint | 19:56 |
| LjL | maybe... i could do a likely foolish attempt of using %preprint to find it | 19:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and ... there are nice lamps simulating natural sun. Especially for schools they should get those anyway, too low lumen causes myoptia | 19:57 |
| LjL | %preprint ChAdOx1 B.1.351 | 19:57 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: An error occurred while searching. | 19:57 |
| LjL | %preprint ChAdOx1 South Africa | 19:57 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: An error occurred while searching. | 19:57 |
| LjL | even better than usual | 19:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: try chanlog ;-) | 19:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | PyRegex search | 19:58 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, i've tried... i didn't use your site, but i definitely grepped my own logs :P | 19:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 19:59 |
| LjL | anyway i've found it but it might not have actually been mentioned as such before | 19:59 |
| LjL | pwr22, https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.10.21251247v1 ← this should be it, though i'm slightly confused because i remember reading it was roughly 2000+2000, not 700+700, but anyway, yeah, 23 vs 19 getting sick basically speaks of no efficacy, and they also concluded "VE against severe Covid-19 is undetermined" | 20:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | VoC ratio Germany: 23% | 20:01 |
| pwr22 | LjL: thanks for digging that up - pretty concerning - I will have to let my dad and stepmum know | 20:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meanwhile AZ blamed for "rather severe side effects like noticeable flu-esque reactions in a lot of health care personal" (Spahn today) | 20:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe we are less ignorant to the adenovirus than they thought? | 20:04 |
| pwr22 | given all the initial vaccines target the early form of the spike protein I would be very interested if the RNA based ones are more effective | 20:05 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, well that's great, i thought *at least* it had fewer side effects than mRNA vaccines... | 20:06 |
| pwr22 | And this is how we invent Adeno SARS-COV-2 | 20:07 |
| pwr22 | 😛 | 20:07 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Recent Commits to links:master: Add information showing lack of efficacy of Oxford/AstraZeneca agains… ( https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/commit/599ac03d40abb781b96f10ffe5027ba169ce01f9 ) | 20:07 | |
| LjL | although to be fair, the one person i know that works in healthcare said a few of her colleagues who got Pfizer developed high fever after the second dose (she didn't) | 20:07 |
| kreyren1 | Adeno SARS-CoV-2? You can now put enchants and runes on that thing? | 20:08 |
| LjL | pwr22, you joke, but i still want an expert opinion on this: AZ had trials in Brazil, South Africa, and the UK (as well as in the US and India): we got variants popping up in Brazil, South Africa, and the UK (as well as something in California, and i'm not sure if India sequences much) | 20:08 |
| LjL | so far the expert opinions have been "naah" and "meeh" but i'd like, you know, "it can't have happened because xyz" :P | 20:09 |
| LjL | i have not seen this hypothesis being covered anywhere. it was just brought up here, and i immediately thought it seemed like a heck of a coincidence | 20:09 |
| pwr22 | I think there have been strains popping up everywhere just most aren't news worthy? | 20:09 |
| pwr22 | It would make sense to me that vaccines will exert selection pressure though | 20:10 |
| pwr22 | I would have thought we would have noticed if there's some sort of recombinant thing going on involving non-corona stuff? | 20:10 |
| LjL | pwr22, "strains" is a debated word, but sure, mutations have kept happening... but these are news worthy partly because they were variants with a *set* of mutations that popped up not one by one ("oh look, today we sequenced this mutation", "oh look, now we have that one, and this other one in the same genome too") but instead they had like 5 mutations that weren't observed before individually | 20:11 |
| pwr22 | I dunno, the UK one appeared to follow some sort of sensible lineage as far as I'm aware | 20:11 |
| LjL | pwr22, there was news yesterday of a possible recombination of the Californian variant with the UK variant (but that's not-non-corona of course :P) | 20:11 |
| pwr22 | The so called kent strain | 20:11 |
| pwr22 | I don't really know much about the SA one myself | 20:11 |
| pwr22 | <LjL "Peter, there was news yesterday "> Yeah I saw that here (still the best source for covid news IMO 😀) | 20:12 |
| pwr22 | Almost surprising we haven't seen more of it | 20:12 |
| pwr22 | I also don't really know what's unique about the california variant either | 20:12 |
| LjL | pwr22, well, de-facto linked to this preliminary paper yesterday, look https://virological.org/t/the-emergence-and-ongoing-convergent-evolution-of-the-n501y-lineages-coincided-with-a-major-global-shift-in-the-sars-cov-2-selective-landscape/618 - i can't say i *understand* it, but the title (or the conclusion down below) alone kinda speaks for itself: there appear to be selective pressures that we didn't have before. so, what are they? why can't they be AZ? | 20:13 |
| pwr22 | Seems less interesting internationally 😀 | 20:13 |
| LjL | yes, or less studied, i don't know, i don't think the US sequences nearly as much as the UK, comparatively speaking | 20:13 |
| pwr22 | <LjL "Peter, well, de-facto linked to "> They could be, I agree. They could also be all the vaccines. Or even the rising level of resistance in the population as the virus continues to spread? | 20:14 |
| LjL | i mean, if you read "local" news, we have italian-specific variants too, or at least so the news say... then they may turn out to be irrelevant | 20:14 |
| pwr22 | I mean realistically if the virus doesn't change to be novel relative to it's earlier form, it will eventually eradicate it's population of hosts | 20:14 |
| LjL | pwr22, in the case of Brazil, Manaus in particular, the rising level of natural immunity has been brought up as a possible cause, although it's not so clear how many people *really* had been infected before the likely re-infections started | 20:14 |
| pwr22 | Two of my brothers work in healthcare / nhs related things atm so they've both had a vaccine, both pfizer | 20:15 |
| LjL | pwr22, err, hopefully it will *have infected* its population of hosts, but not *eradicated* them, i kinda hope most of us stay alive eventually :P | 20:15 |
| pwr22 | My dad has unfortunately had AZ | 20:15 |
| LjL | pwr22, yeah, well, now AZ is even being given to medical people here :\ | 20:15 |
| pwr22 | I mean eradicated as in once someone has it they either die and then aren't a viable host or have immunity (assuming this is so) | 20:16 |
| pwr22 | Hence why flu has to change every year? | 20:16 |
| LjL | pwr22, yes, i guessed what you mean, but "eradicated" is bad word choice when it comes to... us :D | 20:16 |
| LjL | although the planet might be happy | 20:16 |
| pwr22 | he he yeah | 20:16 |
| pwr22 | I was in science mode and just imagining a ever dwindling pool of hypothetical hosts | 20:16 |
| pwr22 | Ah well, could be worse, we could have ebola-sars | 20:17 |
| pwr22 | My dad also works in the medical field but I'm assuming he's still furloughed atm | 20:18 |
| pwr22 | As he's high risk | 20:18 |
| LjL | pwr22, so yeah, you're right, in Brazil there's a chance that in Manaus, most people had already got it, and that's why it mutated; in SA it might be less clear but it's possible a ton of people had it; the UK wasn't at horribly high levels when the "Kent" variant arose, but then, that variant doesn't seem to escape the vaccines, "just" to be more infectious and deadlier... so i guess it could all be a coincidence, but i see "UK; SA; Brazil" in both who | 20:18 |
| LjL | developed the variants, and who tested AZ, and it does make me wonder | 20:18 |
| pwr22 | All this doesn't seem like it bodes well for my one share of AZ stock 😭 | 20:18 |
| pwr22 | Did the EU manage to actually get AZ to deliver any stock? | 20:19 |
| LjL | pwr22, plus you say it could be "all the vaccines" causing this, not just AZ, and okay i guess that's a possibility too, but AZ seems like a more plausible targets simply because it's not all that efficacious. so if the virus meets Pfizer or Moderna, it simply has no chance; if it meets AZ, it can try to evolve a little | 20:19 |
| pwr22 | Or has Boris horded it all? | 20:19 |
| LjL | pwr22, i believe we're getting it... unfortunately(?), just not much | 20:20 |
| de-facto | LjL, i would be careful with selective pressure by AZ, it very well also just could be AZ chose regions with high incidence and selective pressure emerges from many recoveries | 20:21 |
| pwr22 | LjL: looks like we'll have to wait for similar studies of the efficacy of the RNA vaccines over in SA | 20:21 |
| LjL | pwr22, do your brothers have any gossip on how much Pfizer caused side effects in themselves or people they know? also, is the second dose being given in time, or at they doing the same as with AZ and waiting 12 weeks? | 20:21 |
| pwr22 | They only had a slightly sore arm | 20:21 |
| pwr22 | I gather it was less bad than the yearly flu vaccines | 20:21 |
| pwr22 | I think there's a big wait for the second dose yeah | 20:22 |
| LjL | pwr22, one difference in the side effect profile seems to be that with the mRNA vaccines, there's many more side effects with the second dose, while with AZ (and perhaps others), it's more the first dose | 20:22 |
| LjL | don't quote me though | 20:22 |
| de-facto | but the immunity from vaccinations would be against the S-protein recipe variant that is used in them, so afaik still the oldest known variant the original Wuhan style spike | 20:22 |
| de-facto | so maybe immunity from recoveries may be "more up-to-date" in terms of variants, yet may also be not giving as high antibody levels as would most vaccinations | 20:23 |
| LjL | de-facto, well hopefully some antibodies are still neutralizing or at least hinder the virus, it's not necessarily that just because the spike protein has changed a bit, antibodies *won't work at all* | 20:23 |
| de-facto | so higher antibody levels may possibly partly compensate for the "less up-to-date" variants | 20:24 |
| LjL | de-facto, oh well immunity from recoveries also appears to be happening... twice, though ;( (as in re-infections from especially the Brazil variant) | 20:24 |
| de-facto | LjL, yes i think its never black-or-white its always with some binding probability hence gray | 20:24 |
| LjL | yes, i think that's likely going to be the case with the mRNA vaccines, at least with the current variants | 20:24 |
| LjL | by the way, any news on CureVac that you've heard of? | 20:24 |
| LjL | we need more mRNA vaccines imo | 20:24 |
| LjL | i mean, either more different ones, or more Pfizer and Moderna, i don't care which, just more | 20:25 |
| de-facto | i think they are on their plan, havent looked into their latest progress | 20:25 |
| LjL | %vax curevac | 20:25 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, mRNA is a RNA-based vaccine developed in Germany by CureVac + Bayer, which started testing on humans initially on Jun 18, currently employing 36500 healthy volunteers aged 18+ → https://covidvax.org/covid19-vaccine/CureVac-Bayer [... want %more?] | 20:25 |
| de-facto | the thing is all of them still are made from the "old" Wuhan template for s-protein, at least as far as i know | 20:25 |
| LjL | hmm they started the phase 3 in december, so i guess we won't get results before... late march at best? | 20:26 |
| LjL | yeah :\ | 20:26 |
| de-facto | some manufacturers have announced that they intend to work on updates, yet i am not sure how far they have progressed with polyclonal vaccines including all the newest variants of concern | 20:26 |
| LjL | Estimated Primary Completion Date : March 5, 2021 | 20:26 |
| de-facto | yeah something like that | 20:26 |
| LjL | de-facto, the only one that i know has said *they are working* on updates is Moderna | 20:27 |
| LjL | the others certainly fumbled something to that effect, too | 20:27 |
| LjL | is it true the EU has recently ordered a bunch more doses of Moderna? (i already forget if i've heard that here or on TV...) | 20:27 |
| de-facto | i think it was here | 20:28 |
| de-facto | .title https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-02-eu-hails-vaccine-shots-tackle.html | 20:28 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From medicalxpress.com: EU hails deals to get more vaccine shots, tackle variants | 20:28 |
| LjL | ah yeah here from medical xpress | 20:28 |
| LjL | "a further 300 million doses", well, if they can deliver them... that's certainly good | 20:28 |
| de-facto | .title https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_21_655 | 20:29 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From ec.europa.eu: Press corner | European Commission | 20:29 |
| de-facto | "Coronavirus: Commission approves second contract with Moderna to ensure up to additional 300 million doses" | 20:29 |
| LjL | "its second contract with Moderna provides for an additional purchase of 150 million doses in 2021 and an option to purchase an additional 150 million in 2022" not very soon though | 20:29 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Spain: +10829 cases (now 3.1 million), +337 deaths (now 66316) since a day ago | 20:29 |
| de-facto | "Today, the European Commission approved a second contract with the pharmaceutical company Moderna, which provides for an additional purchase of 300 million doses (150 million in 2021 and an option to purchase an additional 150 million in 2022) on behalf of all EU Member States. The new contract also provides for the possibility to donate the vaccine to lower and middle-income countries or to re-direct it to other European countries. | 20:30 |
| de-facto | " | 20:30 |
| pwr22 | I think it's safe to say that R&D is continuously going for new vaccine / virus variants but the pipeline is kind of long | 20:30 |
| de-facto | oh you were faster :) | 20:30 |
| de-facto | yeah | 20:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>any news on CureVac<< *think* I heard they hope to ship end of summer, or somesuch | 20:30 |
| LjL | de-facto, i think i also read that the EU is *trying* (not sure the vaccine manufacturers would like such a clause) to secure contracts which say we only pay for vaccines which are effective against "current" variants, at whatever time applies | 20:30 |
| pwr22 | Ha, good luck with that | 20:31 |
| pwr22 | You can't really litigate against "acts of god" | 20:31 |
| kreyren1 | Whatever i do is an act of god, try to litigate that | 20:31 |
| pwr22 | If the EU would kindly share their timemachine though I'm sure that the companies will be happy to oblige 😀 | 20:31 |
| LjL | pwr22, and meanwhile we are really all getting a bit out of our minds :( the lockdown vs no-lockdown rhetoric here is starting to get quite heated up, and the government made a big faux pas on ski resorts (to be fair, there *was* no government until two days ago, which may have played a role), and many say we just aren't in the economical conditions to be able to sustain a lockdown anymore. and i can believe that now. i've always been for lockdowns, but | 20:32 |
| LjL | one thing is if they had been effective a while ago... another is now with the GDP being down 10% and tons of people losing their jobs and barely receiving enough "relief money" to pay taxes | 20:32 |
| de-facto | well buying vaccines in advance that would not be effective anymore would not make sense i guess | 20:33 |
| rpifan | r u in austria | 20:33 |
| rpifan | they did bad things | 20:33 |
| LjL | kreyren1, "acts of god" is a funny term but an actual legal term in common law :P it's similar to "force majeure" in civil law | 20:33 |
| LjL | rpifan, i am in italy | 20:33 |
| rpifan | ah | 20:33 |
| kreyren1 | i know~ i use it all the time to make myself less of a terrible person | 20:33 |
| kreyren1 | great law | 20:33 |
| de-facto | its the natural behavior of viruses to mutate under selective pressure, evolution at its best, survival of the fittest in the current environment so that is exactly what is to be expected, not an act of god or anything unexpected at all | 20:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I heard in context of moderna +300mio doses, EU also spent a 300mio € for _new_ (read "adapted"/"tuned") vaccine development | 20:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: White House Announces Expanded COVID-19 Testing, Manufacturing And Virus Sequencing: The administration says there will only be a few million doses of Johnson & Johnson's vaccine available to distribute right away, assuming the company gets FDA authorization in the next few weeks. → https://is.gd/G4bFhc | 20:34 |
| de-facto | i mean we know that already very well from annual flu vaccinations | 20:35 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: I mean the term to mean something that is hard to precisely predict 🤔 | 20:36 |
| pwr22 | LjL: I'm not really sure how to deal with the economic issues of lockdown but I for sure think us trying to keep the economy "normal" is silly | 20:37 |
| pwr22 | Economies during a war don't function the same way so why would they during a global pandemic? | 20:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what we know is: there seem to be convergent mutations we *will* face sooner or later, and vaccines getting adapted to those will not hurt and should be done ASAP | 20:38 |
| pwr22 | yeah | 20:38 |
| de-facto | DocScrutinizer05, fully ACK | 20:38 |
| LjL | pwr22, well during a war tons of people die, including from starving, and food can be rationed. maybe we should ration food? i'm thinking back of the lockdown when i and others were saying, don't make people go to the supermarket, just deliver to everyone. i was hoping they could "deliver" whatever was ordered, because i like my privileges, but others were saying we should just have a standardized ration to streamline things | 20:39 |
| LjL | that's a bit of a scary prospect to me, to be honest, but if massive amounts of people positively stop being able to pay for food and rent, that's scary too | 20:39 |
| de-facto | manufacturers need to establish a low latency feedback loop from representative screening by sequencing and updating their vaccine templates for current production | 20:39 |
| pwr22 | If people are struggling to eat then maybe the government should be arranging national food rations? | 20:39 |
| pwr22 | If people are out of work, maybe the government should employ people in work producing the food / supplies we need more of that we surely don't have? | 20:40 |
| LjL | pwr22, what i know is that charities are seeing a spike in people asking for food | 20:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ideally go multiclonal, but that might void the approval completely, causing lengthy phase3 studies. Mere sequence adaption is said to be a few weeks for approval, 6 weeks for tweaking production, and a iirc 9 weeks for producing a new batch | 20:40 |
| de-facto | the thing is government only can suggest directions, yet in the end what makes the difference is what the broad majority of people do | 20:40 |
| LjL | pwr22, yes, and an additional thing i would say is that some companies and people have *made* money from the pandemic (a small amount of companies and people, but big amounts of money). those should be taxed, to provide *real* relief to those who have lost out | 20:40 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, why would multiclonal be so different approval-wise? it's basically... taking the original shot and the updated shot, and mixing them. otherwise, if you give someone only the updated shot, they might still be vulnerable to the original! | 20:41 |
| pwr22 | I'm sure a lot of people have made money shorting various things in the pandemic 🤔 | 20:41 |
| de-facto | DocScrutinizer05, i think its not ideally polyclonal, its a necessity of the virus doing the same thing | 20:42 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Recent Commits to links:master: Add news about new EU vaccine contracts ( https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/commit/715e345facf39b0e7e815e599bc25f75a62087aa ) | 20:42 | |
| pwr22 | LjL: yeah I have no qualms with people that have bezos level wealth being forced to help their fellow humans | 20:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: I guess it's subject to efficiency studies when you only have a - say - 50% of each "type" of vaccine mixed into a single doese. Or do we administr | 20:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | adminster 2 x 100%? | 20:43 |
| LjL | pwr22, that, but also think more in general, to me Amazon immediately comes to mind, but so do any big players in the world of e-commerce. people have stopped going to shops and stores, and they're ordering much more online. those companies made tons of money, and now i don't remember figures but i do remember reading articles that were like (arbitrary figures) "the richest 1% of the population added 70% to their wealth since the pandemic started" | 20:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | times 2 shots | 20:43 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, i think that, uncomfortable as it admittedly is, we will have to take *even more* shortcuts in vaccine approval in the near-medium future :\ | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | prolly | 20:44 |
| de-facto | those richest people cant have gained so much without everyone contributing to their wealth, hence imho they dont own that but have to invest it back into society, for example like Bill and Melinda Gates | 20:44 |
| pwr22 | Isn't there a zombie movie where a vaccine makes everyone into them? | 20:45 |
| pwr22 | Would the zombies still be vulnerable to covid? | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe a A/B regimen would work best? | 20:45 |
| LjL | i have bought a lot from Amazon during the pandemic... other people may say "your fault, you should not do that, you should support local shops instead". okay, support them and what, get COVID, and give them COVID? no, honestly i think buying from places like Amazon is currently fine and quite reasonable, but Amazon should give some of the extra gains back to realities like local shops | 20:46 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, you mean as in, two doses with different variants? | 20:46 |
| pwr22 | LjL: there are no local shops in the UK, it's all rubbish here | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 20:46 |
| pwr22 | Amazon has better range, prices and I don't have to go out in a pandemic | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorta like sputnik but with the actual mRNA | 20:47 |
| LjL | pwr22, local shops but also bigger stores now... they employ lots of people, even though many are employed in, well, rubbish ways. still, those people need food on the table | 20:47 |
| hirogen | no company gives away money esp to competition big or small | 20:47 |
| hirogen | nor should they | 20:47 |
| pwr22 | The UK highstreet is on it's way out since long before covid | 20:47 |
| * blkshp nods longingly. | 20:47 | |
| blkshp | :( | 20:47 |
| hirogen | yeah the Uk highstreet absolutely sucks, i cant stand Next, debenhams, etc | 20:47 |
| hirogen | they actaully do suck | 20:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from https://covid19.specops.network : Add news about new EU vaccine contracts: Putting this in "News" as it's not completely specific to Moderna. I still should figure out a less arbitrary division between vaccine news and the "Vaccines" section itself → https://is.gd/iBCX8p | 20:47 |
| LjL | hirogen, care to elaborate why "nor should they"? i am saying that they should be made to, i.e. taxed. | 20:47 |
| pwr22 | Debenhams has gone bust during the pandemic I think? | 20:47 |
| LjL | this is an extraordinary situation, many people lost enough money to have their very existence in doubt, while some companies gained a lot of money | 20:48 |
| hirogen | what i hate about amazon and it's not their fault really, they are basically the google.com of buying stuff, it's a single poing of contact, | 20:48 |
| LjL | seems pretty obvious to me there should be a rebalancing, before people start burning your HQs | 20:48 |
| pwr22 | LjL: I think at least AZ is doing the vaccines at cost right? | 20:48 |
| hirogen | in reality Amazon should be like a yellow pages, should even be free. | 20:48 |
| hirogen | no one deserves to hord 100 billion a year | 20:48 |
| hirogen | insane | 20:48 |
| LjL | pwr22, so they say, yeah, maybe the others too. i'm not really thinking of vaccine manufacturers when i point at companies making money | 20:48 |
| hirogen | yeah they all gone, next, debs, river island i think, tbh i dont go to em they suck ass | 20:49 |
| pwr22 | A cheap shitty coat in next cost £80 | 20:49 |
| pwr22 | I mean ffs, what the actual fuck | 20:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Bezos knew why he vanished ... just in time before the mob with pitchforks and torches is coming | 20:49 |
| * pwr22 composes myself | 20:49 | |
| pwr22 | *himself | 20:49 |
| LjL | pwr22, hirogen: fwiw, when i was in London, i went to Whole Foods (which later when i mentioned it people were like "eww, they suck") and they had *italian* cheeses, for instance, that i simply couldn't find or even didn't know about here in italy | 20:50 |
| LjL | things that are probably very regional and just don't get here, got there instead. also Borough Market, i'm told, although i didn't manage to visit there | 20:50 |
| pwr22 | Sadly we don't have those outside London as far as I'm aware | 20:50 |
| LjL | big cities have their perks i guess. but Italy-wise, i'm in a big city too, and yet it's far from like that | 20:51 |
| pwr22 | Yeah, I mean london in the UK is unique in having a whole foods | 20:51 |
| LjL | we have Eataly here. basically Italian food at "foreign" prices. yay? not so much. | 20:51 |
| pwr22 | Oh wait, we have 7 now! | 20:51 |
| pwr22 | Oh nvm, all in london | 20:51 |
| pwr22 | rofl | 20:51 |
| LjL | maybe that's why London wanted to secede rather than have Brexit :P | 20:52 |
| pwr22 | ha ha | 20:52 |
| pwr22 | London gets lots of nice "international" thing's that aren't every going to be a thing outside of it | 20:52 |
| pwr22 | They're more of a novelty / tourist thing | 20:52 |
| pwr22 | Like the only in person amazon store in the UK iirc | 20:53 |
| pwr22 | There's a ton more but none are coming to mind right now | 20:53 |
| LjL | speaking of which, the EU really did a small yet giant whoopsie with the threat of invoking article 16 of the deal... i'm afraid the situation in Northern Ireland may escalate, just what we need :( they sent a few Customs officers home because they were being threatened, for one thing | 20:53 |
| pwr22 | Oh dear | 20:54 |
| pwr22 | Who was doing the threatening? | 20:54 |
| LjL | i don't know in particular, i think some graffiti, and some people were seen noting down the number plates of Customs people... | 20:54 |
| LjL | anyway the situation is very tense mostly due to the "border" between GB and NI that is now being enforced in various ways, which simply didn't exist previously | 20:55 |
| LjL | it was already a delicate situation, and then the EU just needed to invoke that clause (only to say "whoops, sorry" immediately, but the damage was done), making all of the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland, and the UK mad at them, but also at each other | 20:55 |
| LjL | just one thing about that that i saw posted here earlier... | 20:55 |
| LjL | uhm | 20:55 |
| LjL | pwr22, oh it wasn't here, it was ##EU, anyway, example: <Brainstorm> New from Brexit @ The Guardian: Brexit forces Northern Ireland buyers to cancel orders for 100,000 trees: Exclusive: Ban on plants being moved across Irish Sea is major setback for tree-planting programmes in region → https://is.gd/OMfCJ0 | 20:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | they should get mad about BoJo and breggsit | 20:58 |
| LjL | i don't care anymore who "should" get mad at whom, i just feel like we're sitting on a minefield even aside from COVID | 21:00 |
| LjL | i hope it's not the way people felt before WW1, but it kinda feels like it | 21:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nah, back when everybody was just too eager to go to war | 21:01 |
| pwr22 | > making all of the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland, and the UK mad at them, but also at each other | 21:05 |
| pwr22 | Seems like the usual business these days! | 21:05 |
| pwr22 | I can't believe we didn't postpone brexit till... you know... we aren't a fucking pandemic 🤦♂️ | 21:05 |
| LjL | pwr22, i can't believe they had to wait until almost literally the last second to make a friggin' deal | 21:07 |
| LjL | 2016 → 2021 | 21:07 |
| pwr22 | Yeah........ ☹️ | 21:07 |
| LjL-Matrix | Peter: anyway I don't remember which article exactly I read about Customs staff being sent home because of graffiti, threats, etc, but I've tried googling "ireland customs threatened graffiti plates" and that does bring up a lot of articles about it, if you're interested | 21:09 |
| pwr22 | No worries, might take a look later | 21:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: South Africa launches vaccine drive, first to administer J&J shot: South Africa launched its long-awaited coronavirus vaccine campaign on Wednesday while also becoming the first country worldwide to administer inoculations by US pharma giant Johnson & Johnson. → https://is.gd/fMFg3I | 21:12 |
| LjL-Matrix | Ah, so clearly they did switch to J&J as anticipated... | 21:15 |
| LjL-Matrix | J&J isn't incredibly effective from what I remember from their interim, but I guess it's good if SA considers it *more* effective than AZ at their variant | 21:16 |
| de-facto | hmm any plans announced from J&J to update their vaccine for SA? | 21:20 |
| bin_bash | J&J is more effective at the SA variant than AZ, AZ has had some serious problems with their vaccine | 21:21 |
| bin_bash | JJ can also be sotred at more normal temperatures and only needs to have 1 shot | 21:21 |
| de-facto | the spike protein should be the same though in AZ and JJ | 21:21 |
| de-facto | so i guess if they not want to have bad PR they should already work on an update | 21:21 |
| bin_bash | apparently it's not | 21:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: Florida Governor Accused Of "Playing Politics" With COVID Vaccine: At a coronavirus vaccination event near an upscale retirement community, Fla. Gov. DeSantis had to answer questions about whether he's favoring some communities over others. → https://is.gd/jIf5j3 | 21:25 |
| de-facto | well we will see i guess | 21:25 |
| bin_bash | what do you mean | 21:25 |
| de-facto | how effective JJ really is in SA | 21:26 |
| bin_bash | ah yeah | 21:26 |
| bin_bash | well j&j specifically tested against the SA variant | 21:26 |
| de-facto | i hope for the best of course | 21:26 |
| bin_bash | same | 21:27 |
| bin_bash | I think because it's only one shot and the single shot confers more immunity than a single shot of moderna or pfizer that it will probably work out better than the alternative | 21:27 |
| bin_bash | but i dont know a lot of details about why astra-zeneca has fucked up so badly | 21:27 |
| de-facto | well it also could be a chance for them to be one of the first with updated templates on the market and "tested at the origin" of the VOC in SA if so required, we will see | 21:30 |
| bin_bash | not sure what you mean | 21:31 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for France: +23211 cases (now 3.5 million), +402 deaths (now 83068) since 23 hours ago | 21:32 |
| de-facto | i mean if it would turn out that they need to update their DNA recipe to be more effective against the SA variant and they successfully would do that it would be good advertisement if they would be among the first on the market proven to be effective against B.1.351 PANGO Lineage at its origin in SA | 21:33 |
| de-facto | its not like evolution would stop there, its also ongoing at the same time as vaccinations do | 21:34 |
| de-facto | imho any manufacturer currently not working on implementing an update process into their pipeline does a fatal mistake | 21:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Online tool helps estimate COVID's true toll on sub-Saharan Africa: One early feature of reporting on the coronavirus pandemic was the perception that sub-Saharan Africa was largely being spared the skyrocketing infection and death rates that were disrupting nations around the world. → https://is.gd/lXZ12x | 21:37 |
| LjL | bin_bash, how does J&J provide a better protection than a single shot of Moderna or Pfizer? it was found to be effective at 66%... Moderna and Pfizer have *staggering* efficacy even just after the first shot, if you let the famous 12 or so days pass | 21:38 |
| bin_bash | de-facto: idk about AZ since i havent been following, but the moderna/pfizer ones are and j&j is | 21:38 |
| de-facto | hence i am a bit suspicious about those simply stating "dont worry everything is fine with our current template" because obviously that only is valid for one moment in time, it can not possibly be valid later on because of natural selection | 21:38 |
| LjL | J&J is basically cheap and easy to use, partly thanks to just one dose, but its efficacy isn't close to even one shot of mRNA really | 21:38 |
| bin_bash | LjL: because giving just a single shot of the moderna or pfizer is dangerous since it's not intended to be a single shot. it will basically encourage more vaccine-resistant strains | 21:39 |
| LjL | so may AZ, so may J&J with 66% efficacy | 21:39 |
| bin_bash | apparently not as badly because they work differently | 21:39 |
| de-facto | if a manufacturer states "currently our vaccine is effective but we are working on implementing updates" it sounds much more realistic to me | 21:39 |
| LjL | any vaccine that's not almost 100% effective may encourage vaccine-resistant strains, and that definitely includes AZ and J&J | 21:39 |
| LjL | bin_bash, well i really have my doubts on that. do you have somewhere that actually states that? i'd be interested in reading it | 21:40 |
| bin_bash | LjL: yes but i can't get it now since i dont have robust internet right now | 21:40 |
| bin_bash | so the web is not exactly working | 21:40 |
| LjL | bin_bash, that's okay, if you remember let me know | 21:40 |
| bin_bash | will do | 21:40 |
| bin_bash | it was a piece by an epidemiologist fwiw i shared it a few weeks ago | 21:44 |
| bin_bash | ofc not in my clipboard history anymore | 21:45 |
| bin_bash | I think it has something to do with how the vaccines work | 21:45 |
| bin_bash | LjL: here's one article I still had in my clipboard history about the j&j vaccine efficacy https://www.livescience.com/which-covid-19-vaccine-should-you-get.html | 21:47 |
| de-facto | Adenovirus vector vs mRNA LipidNanoParticle delivery, yet both Adenovirus vector (DNA plasmid) as well as mRNA encodes a variant of the antigen (spike-protein) for raising an immune reaction and so far i have seen only sequences for s-protein in its first known variant (the original Wuhan sequence) with two point mutations stabilizing it in its prefusion configuration | 21:48 |
| de-facto | yet i have not seen the most recent sequences from the vaccine manufacturers i assume they are not allowed to change without some sort of re-validation of their approval | 21:49 |
| bin_bash | yes ofc they would need to get re-approved | 21:49 |
| de-facto | i wish vaccine manufacturers would have to publish their full sequences and also update that info | 21:50 |
| bin_bash | well in the US at least | 21:50 |
| de-facto | that way everyone easily could compare the sequences | 21:50 |
| bin_bash | why | 21:50 |
| bin_bash | that would not be very popular | 21:50 |
| de-facto | to validate how recent their updates are | 21:50 |
| de-facto | it was the first thing i have done once i got the sequences for some | 21:50 |
| de-facto | it does not make sense to treat them as secrets because those that may profit from knowing sequences of opponents *easily* could sequence themselves | 21:51 |
| de-facto | and honestly i would like to know the exact sequence for a vaccine i take | 21:53 |
| de-facto | just so that i can estimate how up-to-date immunity still is with ongoing evolution of new variants | 21:54 |
| bin_bash | honestly it's probably better that it isn't, because someone would see something they dont understand and then go around blasting about how the vaccines will kill you | 21:54 |
| de-facto | no those would only be ridiculed by their incompetence then | 21:55 |
| de-facto | imho its just like open source software, its better if its open info to anyone using it | 21:55 |
| de-facto | sure the manufacturers can hold their patents, thats fine, but the full uncensored content has to be available to any user imho | 21:56 |
| bin_bash | no that's a false equivalency | 21:58 |
| bin_bash | we don't need the lowest idiots in society to use open source software | 21:58 |
| bin_bash | but we DO need them to take the vaccine | 21:58 |
| bin_bash | and some publication would go off about how some gene was used in a vaccine that also is related to some other disease or something and then people would run with it | 21:58 |
| bin_bash | i mean we STILL haven't fixed the damage that the whole "vaccines cause autism" thing started | 21:59 |
| de-facto | i dont know anyone personally that states such things | 22:01 |
| bin_bash | lucky you | 22:01 |
| bin_bash | I guess you don't live in the US | 22:01 |
| de-facto | nope i live in Germany | 22:01 |
| de-facto | mRNA vaccines from WHO INN https://www.who.int/medicines/publications/druginformation/issues/WHO_DI_34-3_PL124-SpecialEdition.pdf | 22:01 |
| de-facto | INO-4800 (pGX9501) https://mednet-communities.net/inn/db/media/docs/11746.doc | 22:02 |
| de-facto | bnt162b2:tozinameran, Spike (modRNA) https://mednet-communities.net/inn/db/media/docs/11889.doc | 22:02 |
| de-facto | CVnCoV:zorecimeran: CureVac, RBD (no 1mΨ) https://mednet-communities.net/inn/db/media/docs/11868.doc | 22:02 |
| de-facto | just a few examples | 22:02 |
| bin_bash | anto-vaccine rhetoric is a really big problem in the US | 22:03 |
| bin_bash | and sadly it's spreading elsewhere too | 22:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: India offers to vaccinate all UN peacekeepers → https://is.gd/8ZkRgB | 22:03 |
| de-facto | yet i stay with information should not be hidden and be transparently open accessible to anyone, if idiots read into that too so be it | 22:04 |
| bin_bash | no, because not everyone who is ill-informed is an idiot | 22:05 |
| de-facto | censoring information is not a solution to that though | 22:05 |
| de-facto | on the contrary, more education has to be done, more effort invested into transparent information access and in a form that every level of competence can profit from it | 22:06 |
| de-facto | so it has to be multi level, allowing for both a birds eye view and also provide all the details if so desired | 22:07 |
| bin_bash | it's not censoring information though | 22:07 |
| de-facto | imho not publishing the sequence is censorship, it should be available to anyone | 22:07 |
| LjL | bin_bash, thanks, sorry i was on the phone with, appropriately to prior discussion, Amazon, who can't decide whether to give me back money or take money from me | 22:08 |
| bin_bash | well now you're going into anti-patent territory, de-facto and I don't really want to get into that one | 22:08 |
| de-facto | no i did not say anything about patents, i am talking about the sequences | 22:09 |
| de-facto | they cant be protected by censorship anyhow, someone with the intention to steal can easily sequence themselves | 22:09 |
| bin_bash | okay i'm just getting confused at this point | 22:10 |
| bin_bash | who is censoring anything | 22:10 |
| de-facto | the only ones being avoided from knowing about the sequences are the ones without such sequencing equipment (the broad public) and those cant steal from such a sequence anyhow, but they could run it through bioinfo pipelines for example | 22:11 |
| de-facto | the manufacturers are not all publishing the sequences for their vaccines (and above links are more like leaks) | 22:11 |
| LjL | de-facto, even the actual viral sequences are not technically public... the "sequence zero" from Wuhan is, some others are, a lot you can probably reconstruct thanks to those and to Nextstrain annotations... but Nextstrain doesn't actually contain *the sequences*, and in some cases they aren't published | 22:11 |
| LjL | i'm not saying this is right or wrong, just saying it's common | 22:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >><de-facto> i wish vaccine manufacturers would have to publish their full sequences<< here you are https://mednet-communities.net/inn/db/media/docs/11889.doc (AIUI) | 22:12 |
| de-facto | i say its wrong | 22:12 |
| bin_bash | manufacturers not publishing patented data is not censorship | 22:12 |
| de-facto | they should be available to anyone | 22:12 |
| de-facto | DocScrutinizer05, yeah i was the one posting those links on here | 22:12 |
| LjL | de-facto, my personal opinion is the same as yours. but i'm only saying that *if* vaccine sequences aren't public, then, well, neither are the viral sequences themselves (often) | 22:13 |
| LjL | unfortunately my personal opinion counts for nothing since i cannot sequence anything nor pay for people to sequence and publish those sequences :P maybe one day i'll vote for a new government, when italy decides it's tired of reshuffling governments on its own | 22:14 |
| LjL | and then i'll have 1/60000000 chance of vaguely influencing the decision making that may or may not lead to making information more public | 22:15 |
| LjL | de-facto, another thing worth noting is that even when the contract between Pfizer/BioNTech and the EU was published after the whole diatribe, LOTS of pages were still censored out | 22:15 |
| bin_bash | does italy even have medical research | 22:15 |
| LjL | yes | 22:16 |
| LjL | part of the BioNTech/Pfizer production process is done in Italy, fwiw | 22:16 |
| de-facto | all i want is the full information available to everyone, that does *not* mean it should be allowed that patents can be stolen or such, ofc manufacturers should be able to patent their innovation | 22:16 |
| LjL | it's not the most high-tech part, but it's not trivial either | 22:16 |
| bin_bash | right but biontech/pfizer aren't italian companies | 22:16 |
| bin_bash | biontech is german iirc | 22:16 |
| bin_bash | and pfizer is american | 22:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >><bin_bash> and some publication would go off about how some gene was used in a vaccine that also is related to some other disease or something and then people would run with it<< I think all that has left the station long ago | 22:17 |
| de-facto | all of the manufacturers use a big network of collaboration with other companies from many different countries | 22:17 |
| bin_bash | moderna is american too | 22:17 |
| LjL | bin_bash, there are agreements between many companies to make these vaccines | 22:17 |
| de-facto | yeah | 22:17 |
| bin_bash | LjL: yeah but the ultimate decision is going to be made by the company headquarters and their legal department | 22:17 |
| LjL | i'm not saying Italy is the latest and greatest vaccine developer | 22:17 |
| LjL | but you asked if we have medical research, and yes well we just do | 22:17 |
| LjL | whether it's *great* research i'm not qualified to say | 22:17 |
| bin_bash | sorry, i meant medical research companies** that's my bad | 22:18 |
| LjL | bin_bash, we have companies too | 22:18 |
| LjL | i say again | 22:18 |
| LjL | it's not just like there's an "arm" of Pfizer or AZ or whatever in Italy | 22:18 |
| LjL | it's that Italian companies are involved in the production | 22:18 |
| bin_bash | okay, let me rephrase. do you really think italy would have a say in whether or not pfizer or moderna decided to release patents? | 22:18 |
| de-facto | its *not* about releasing patents, its information transparency | 22:19 |
| LjL | bin_bash, i never said that | 22:19 |
| LjL | anyway | 22:19 |
| LjL | the whole POINT of patents is to release information | 22:19 |
| LjL | patents were created to COMBAT "trade secrets" | 22:20 |
| de-facto | most patent descriptions are public anyhow | 22:20 |
| bin_bash | it's about both. the sequences are patented iirc | 22:20 |
| de-facto | sure that does not mean they are secret | 22:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not sure how many patents are in this stuff anyway. Again a claim many populists love to employ to heat up the temperature, while what I see is at least 3 companies using pretty identical processes and stuff for mRNA vaccines | 22:20 |
| LjL | the whole idea was that if you make something public by patenting it (and the patent is publicly available by definition), in return, the state would ensure that others can't use your invention without your approval | 22:20 |
| de-facto | patents are more about the introduction sequences, codon optimizers etrc | 22:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a patent HAS TO be public, that'S the purpose of a patent, otherwise nobody could avoid infringing it | 22:21 |
| LjL | bin_bash, anyway, as a second answer to your question, https://covidvax.org/covid19-vaccines-full-list lists 4 vaccines where Italy is partly responsible for the research itself | 22:21 |
| bin_bash | LjL: awesome thank you | 22:22 |
| bin_bash | hopefully my internet comes back up soon | 22:22 |
| bin_bash | i hate it so much when i cant find an article | 22:22 |
| bin_bash | i havent gone through all the patents but i did have this up recently for some reason: https://www.modernatx.com/patents | 22:23 |
| LjL | anyway my original point in mentioning my vote was that i have *very little* sway on anything | 22:23 |
| bin_bash | de-facto: it's 100% possible (and even likely) that i'm jsut totally misunderstanding what you're saying | 22:23 |
| bin_bash | LjL: oops yeah lag has been not my friend, so i mightve missed that. same for me and it is quite frustrating | 22:24 |
| LjL | i am not really sure what you two are debating exactly tbh but <bin_bash> manufacturers not publishing patented data is not censorship ← this is just factually incorrect, because if something is patented, by definition, it IS published. you cannot patent something without making the whole process public. | 22:24 |
| LjL | if something isn't public, then conversely, it means that part is not patented | 22:24 |
| bin_bash | LjL: right that's why i'm confused | 22:24 |
| de-facto | patents are perfectly fine to protect investment in innovation, i only want the full information available for public analysis and comparison for everyone motivated to either investigate or confirm claims | 22:25 |
| bin_bash | he's saying they're censored, but i think they're patented so theyre not censored | 22:25 |
| bin_bash | which is why i'm thinking maybe *i'm* the confused one and it's a language barrier maybe. i donty know where the censoriship is i guess | 22:25 |
| de-facto | if the sequence is patented (i really doubt that) it should be public, but i think its not public and also not patented (but only parts of it, like the introduction or tail, codon optimizations etc) | 22:26 |
| de-facto | the sequence i am interested into, the variant of the s-protein itself, surely is not patented as its in all of them in some variant | 22:27 |
| de-facto | so for example one could take the sequences from above word documents and compare them against the public sequences database | 22:27 |
| de-facto | those are wuhan spike with the two prefusion stabilizing point mutations | 22:28 |
| bin_bash | ahhhh i see what you mean | 22:28 |
| bin_bash | yeah i agree, if that isn't public then it should be | 22:28 |
| de-facto | for example i have not found the sequence for the moderna mRNA-1273 | 22:29 |
| de-facto | i would like to see if they use the same variant of the s-protein, because if ever having the choice it would be relevant info to me | 22:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, for one let me tell you that natural DNA (and RNA) is not patent-able. What could get patented is the Gamma(?)-metyl thing to produce stealth RNA that not gets destroyed by immune response immediately before it could trigger any action. But that is obviously public knowledge as all the vaccine produces use it and neither of them invented it, it's prior art | 22:30 |
| LjL | Unrelated, but meanwhile Italy's new Draghi government is about to be sworn in after the Senate votes for confidence... It seems that the Five Star movement may have several senators actually voting against, and in their leader's speech they said "we're saying a conditional yes, and during your government, we'll annoy you" ("annoy" being a not wholly appropriate translation of an Italian expression) | 22:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the 1-methyl-3'-pseudouridylyl thing | 22:32 |
| de-facto | the manufacturers often used knowledge from public research and combined that into their product | 22:32 |
| de-facto | thats all described in papers | 22:32 |
| de-facto | but thats fine, why should they not use the best of our knowledge, all i want is full transparency so any questions could be investigated by whomever wants to invest time | 22:33 |
| de-facto | the modRNA, the LNPs the introduction sequences, the poly-A tails etc | 22:34 |
| de-facto | many are from PHD theses etc | 22:35 |
| bin_bash | theses are public | 22:35 |
| de-facto | everything should be public | 22:44 |
| bin_bash | but isn't it public in the studies? | 22:45 |
| de-facto | some things are, but not everything | 22:46 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Switzerland: +32 deaths (now 9849) since 20 hours ago | 22:46 |
| bin_bash | de-facto: have you tried sending FOIA requests? | 22:46 |
| de-facto | not only the full sequences are not public yet, also i wish they would have to make the full study data publicly accessible | 22:46 |
| bin_bash | the study data are in peer-reviewed journals i think | 22:47 |
| de-facto | yeah they say they would provide that if one gives them a proper reason what to do with that data | 22:47 |
| bin_bash | so do that | 22:48 |
| de-facto | the results of the study data are published in those journals but not the data itself | 22:48 |
| de-facto | they should be required to publish that themselves, available anonymously to anyone without reasoning about purposes or such | 22:48 |
| bin_bash | like all of the raw data? | 22:48 |
| de-facto | yes i want all of it | 22:48 |
| bin_bash | i dont think that makes sense | 22:49 |
| de-facto | why not? | 22:49 |
| de-facto | its relevant info for me | 22:49 |
| bin_bash | because raw data is full of noise | 22:49 |
| de-facto | well but i want to be able to do my own analysis (and so should be anyone else) | 22:50 |
| bin_bash | if it's relevant info for you, then put in an FOIA request and see what you get | 22:50 |
| CoronaBot | /r/coronavirus: Harris stresses teachers must be prioritized for Covid-19 vaccinations (10138 votes) | https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/harris-stresses-teachers-must-be-prioritized-covid-19-vaccinations-n1258087 | https://redd.it/llukmu | 22:50 |
| de-facto | otherwise there always will be open questions | 22:50 |
| bin_bash | but it's ridiculous to expect raw data to be released for every study ever | 22:50 |
| bin_bash | that doesn't make any sense | 22:50 |
| de-facto | it does make a lot of sense to me | 22:50 |
| de-facto | its the core of empiric science | 22:51 |
| bin_bash | it really doesn't because it's full of noise. | 22:51 |
| de-facto | enable anyone to verify claims by their own analysis | 22:51 |
| de-facto | so why would noise make it nonsensical to publish it? | 22:51 |
| de-facto | its part of the real evidence hence relevant for analysis | 22:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Bahrain launches digital COVID-19 vaccine passport, one of the first countries to do so → https://is.gd/56Lyjp | 22:52 |
| bin_bash | because de-facto when doing research a huge portion of the collected data has issues or problems that need to be corrected for | 22:53 |
| de-facto | no | 22:53 |
| de-facto | if scientists correct data it would be fake claims | 22:54 |
| de-facto | the only thing that contains the full picture is the raw data, it does not have to be made beautiful | 22:54 |
| bin_bash | no | 22:54 |
| de-facto | in fact it should not be allowed to "beautify" the raw data | 22:54 |
| bin_bash | in scientific studies there are factors that have to be corrected for | 22:54 |
| bin_bash | hence why the methodology is so important | 22:55 |
| bin_bash | poverty, lifestyle, health situations, etc. | 22:55 |
| de-facto | i disagree, the full unmodified raw dataset contains the full picture, any modifications or corrections are changing that picture hence also any claims based on that | 22:56 |
| bin_bash | haven't you ever worked on scientific studies before? | 22:56 |
| bin_bash | I thought you claimed to be a scientist | 22:56 |
| de-facto | yes i am, hence i know about data analysis | 22:56 |
| bin_bash | there are factors that MUST be corrected for in medical research | 22:56 |
| bin_bash | otherwise the data ends up skewed by bias | 22:56 |
| de-facto | the vaccine studies must choose a representative crowd of participants, any later "corrections" are introducing bias because the results can not possibly be known in advance | 22:58 |
| bin_bash | *sigh* | 22:58 |
| bin_bash | You're being much too idealist about this | 22:58 |
| bin_bash | Some people lie to get into studies, don't do things their supposed to, do things to taint the studies, etc. That data has to be evaluated and corrected for, sometimes disposed of | 22:59 |
| de-facto | i am not from medical research, but if its common practice to "correct" for desired bias in the raw data that there is a serious issue and it should not be called empirical science anymore | 22:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>the full sequences are not public yet<< which sequences? | 22:59 |
| de-facto | Moderna mRNA-127 | 22:59 |
| de-facto | Moderna mRNA-1273 | 22:59 |
| de-facto | for example | 22:59 |
| de-facto | if you find it i would be interested into knowing it | 23:00 |
| de-facto | same for all the other ones that i did not link above but are on the market already | 23:00 |
| de-facto | i probably should scrape their server again | 23:00 |
| bin_bash | de-facto: i think maybe you're just not understanding how research goes. after all the data is collected it's reviewed and sometimes it shows that there were issues with selection bias and sometimes it shows other things. to just release all that data would be essentially just creating unnecessary noise. | 23:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what is this sequence published by WHA? | 23:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | WHO even | 23:01 |
| de-facto | bin_bash, i strongly oppose to that | 23:01 |
| de-facto | it *must* be released in every detail, otherwise the claim is not falsifiable as it should be in empirical sciences | 23:01 |
| bin_bash | I don't know what to tell you, that's how it works. | 23:01 |
| bin_bash | It's why study repetition is important. | 23:01 |
| de-facto | it should be transparent and raw data release must be made mandatory | 23:02 |
| bin_bash | No | 23:02 |
| de-facto | yes | 23:02 |
| bin_bash | I'm not going to agree with that | 23:02 |
| de-facto | everything else is not empirical science | 23:02 |
| bin_bash | so we'll jsut have to disagree | 23:02 |
| bin_bash | You've got it wrong I think. | 23:02 |
| de-facto | how can i verify claims when the full data is being kept in secret? | 23:02 |
| de-facto | *that* does not make any sense | 23:02 |
| bin_bash | The relevant data is in the study though | 23:03 |
| de-facto | how can i make sure their "corrections" did not introduce a bias in their favor? | 23:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *gosh*! https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/reverse-engineering-source-code-of-the-biontech-pfizer-vaccine/ | 23:03 |
| bin_bash | by repeating the study | 23:03 |
| de-facto | if they alter the data by selection it MUST be made in a transparent way, everything else is a lie. | 23:03 |
| de-facto | i stay 100% with every word i said. | 23:04 |
| bin_bash | it would be part of the methodology and considerations | 23:04 |
| bin_bash | in the study itself | 23:04 |
| bin_bash | that would all be documented | 23:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I stay with >>BNT sequence is fully public<< | 23:04 |
| bin_bash | yeah I'm just more and more confused now | 23:04 |
| bin_bash | afaik nothing is being censored or kept hidden | 23:04 |
| de-facto | link me the moderna sequence, and their raw data then, i claim its not publicly available without reasoning with them about why one would want to see it | 23:06 |
| bin_bash | raw data isnt going to be released in medical studies | 23:06 |
| bin_bash | or any study for that matter | 23:07 |
| de-facto | and thats wrong imho | 23:07 |
| bin_bash | no it isnt | 23:07 |
| de-facto | a real problem | 23:07 |
| bin_bash | i dont think youve ever worked on a research study | 23:07 |
| de-facto | it makes anonymous verification of claims impossible | 23:08 |
| de-facto | i am not working in medical research | 23:08 |
| bin_bash | i think we're just going in circles now so i'm backing out because either i'm not understanding what you're trying to say, or you're not understanding how studies work | 23:08 |
| de-facto | i am just saying if a science claims to be empirical it should be falsifiable hence claims independently and anonymously verifiable and reproducible, there should be no reason to hold back raw data (as it admittedly is the case too often) | 23:11 |
| bin_bash | the reason is that raw data is noise. it's why the data gets charted in studies | 23:12 |
| bin_bash | the idea behind peer review is that studies should be replicated and results compared | 23:12 |
| bin_bash | that's what PEER means | 23:12 |
| bin_bash | peers in that specific research community | 23:13 |
| de-facto | i know all that | 23:13 |
| de-facto | still hiding noise makes no sense imho | 23:13 |
| de-facto | there simply is no reason to hide raw data other than fears the analysis could contain flaws | 23:14 |
| bin_bash | publishing noise is just like gish galloping. it's flooding with nonsense | 23:14 |
| de-facto | lol ok then | 23:14 |
| bin_bash | more like the data is analyzed incorrectly without properly knowing what corrections are needed and coming to dangerously incorrect conclusions | 23:14 |
| de-facto | that noise being the basis of their claims, so if you say their "noise" does not contain any valuable info, does that mean it all comes from "correcting" that noise then in your opinion? | 23:15 |
| bin_bash | sometimes different pieces of data have to be weighted differently | 23:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from Emma Hodcroft: @firefoxx66: If you're in need of aligning 500,000 similar sequences (or even more?!) regularly, this could be a game-changer!#SARSCoV2 → https://is.gd/SBkIVZ | 23:16 |
| de-facto | well than that weighting is part of the full raw dataset of course | 23:16 |
| de-facto | but not the result of the weighting but the correct categorizing | 23:16 |
| bin_bash | idk, maybe i'm wrong here but i think it would be impractical to do and would be dangerous since what really matters is repeat experimentation | 23:18 |
| bin_bash | not repeat data analysis | 23:18 |
| de-facto | yes reproducibility is part of empirical science | 23:19 |
| bin_bash | I certainly don't pretend to be an expert in the field. I've only worked with psychology studies and research and been on the periphery of engineering studies and research | 23:19 |
| bin_bash | but in my experience just publishing raw data is not helpful because it has to be interpreted | 23:20 |
| de-facto | but also transparency of data analysis imho | 23:20 |
| de-facto | yes but the path for analyzing raw data should be fully transparent and datasets should be published in their full unselected raw form, i know its not done like that (obviously otherwise we would not discuss it now) but it should be for transparent claims | 23:21 |
| bin_bash | I still think it's a bit slippery, but I can see what you're saying now and I can also see how that would be beneficial | 23:24 |
| bin_bash | but i still disagree that not doing so makes it less empirical | 23:24 |
| de-facto | some proper noise even could underline the validity of raw data, it containing also still unknown effects that may only become known later on and could be found in the "random noise" | 23:27 |
| bin_bash | maybe | 23:29 |
| bin_bash | i appreciate this convo fwiw, it made me think about it from a different perspective | 23:30 |
| bin_bash | i can definitely see your point if the data were released in the appropriate context | 23:30 |
| Arsanerit | de-facto: the raw data for some instruments may well be 100 TB for a single experimental run, or even 1 PB. It's very expensive to store all of that, even more expensive to store all of it in a way that can be readily accessed. | 23:35 |
| bolovanos__ | hearsay | 23:36 |
| Arsanerit | de-facto: For exactly, the Geostationary Lightning Mapper (GLM) and the Lightning Mapping Imager (LMI) are satellite instruments that measure the full Earth disc at a frequency of 1 kHz. Even downlinking all of that is completely out of the question, so substantial processing happens on-board to select what is downlinked at all. | 23:36 |
| de-facto | yeah and at CERN they have to select the raw data even inside their sensors prior to it being collected into larger data streams because otherwise it would by far exceed current bandwidth capabilities of technology | 23:38 |
| Arsanerit | de-facto: So although there exist bad reasons to withhold data, you're wrong to say that there is "no reason than fears the analysis could contain flaws". There exist good reasons too. | 23:38 |
| Arsanerit | Yes, CERN too. | 23:38 |
| de-facto | but for example the raw dataset for a vaccine trial is not 100GB | 23:38 |
| de-facto | it may be 100kB | 23:38 |
| Arsanerit | 100 GB would be peanuts :) | 23:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Vaccination of whole Brazilian city spares it from shortages: As Brazil's mayors and governors start sounding the alarm over dwindling supplies of coronavirus vaccines, there are no such complaints in Serrana, a city that Sao Paulo's state government selected to test city-wide vaccination. → https://is.gd/mlM8hk | 23:39 |
| de-facto | i know all that, still i think the raw data should be made publicly accessible especially in medical research | 23:39 |
| Arsanerit | I don't know nearly enough about vaccines to comment on that. I thought bioinformatics also deals with quite large quantities of data. | 23:39 |
| Arsanerit | I don't know what the raw data involved in vaccine or virus research is like. | 23:40 |
| Arsanerit | Raw data in medical research may contain privacy-sensitive information? | 23:40 |
| Arsanerit | If you publish the raw data than participants know if they were placebo or not, which would seem to harm the scientific value of the experiment? | 23:41 |
| de-facto | of course only after unblinding | 23:41 |
| Arsanerit | Also, as a scientist, do I really have to publish all my crappy attempts and failures? Maybe I should, ok, but maybe it just makes me look bad. There's overhead involved in publishing anything. Cost involved in archiving, anything that's published needs better metadata than internal sketches do. | 23:42 |
| Arsanerit | Data that leads to publications, sure, that should be public by default, but all raw measurements, that's too much imho. | 23:43 |
| de-facto | yeah not every data ever measured of course not, but the complete data on which claims are based should be made public by default imho (and yeah unfortunately its not the default way currently) | 23:45 |
| de-facto | as you said in some cases that is problematic (e.g. with data amounts) | 23:46 |
| Arsanerit | I agree that this should be done by default, and that scientists should motivate the cases that it's not done. | 23:46 |
| de-facto | maybe a query interface could partly solve that (such as its done in bioinformatics for example) | 23:46 |
| Arsanerit | There is a trend in this direction, but some fields are further than others, and some fields are dealing with commercial interests going against open data. | 23:46 |
| de-facto | yeah of course its an ideal | 23:47 |
| de-facto | but it would allow for much more meta analysis if datasets would be complete with all decisions from preselections etc | 23:47 |
| Arsanerit | Huh, apparently the human genome fits in less than 1 GB, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(data) | 23:48 |
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