libera/##covid-19/ Sunday, 2021-03-14

BrainstormNew from r/Coronavirus: Resources for finding a COVID-19 vaccine appointment: In order to help streamline the process of scheduling a COVID-19 vaccine appointment, here is an (in progress) list of online resources broken down by country and state/territory. → https://is.gd/fuvZnD00:56
pwr22LjL  how is your sister doing?01:26
pwr22I've got pretty bad flu symptoms from my AZ jab around 13 hours ago01:26
LjLpwr22, i'm sorry... do you have fever?01:31
LjLshe's been fine afaik, but you know with Pfizer it tends to be the second shot that's more problematic01:31
de-facto.title https://febs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/febs.15784 <-- what do you guys think about this one?01:41
Brainstormde-facto: From febs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com: The use of aspirin for primary prevention of cardiovascular disease is associated with a lower likelihood of COVID‐19 infection - Merzon - - The FEBS Journal - Wiley Online Library01:41
LjLde-facto, hmm, retrospective study, may be affected by all sorts of biases, but i guess even just from the abstract it's interesting that they say aspirin users, despite doing better with COVID-19, were more likely to have things that are usually associated with COVID. although i guess that's sort of expected because then why else would they be taking aspirin? but still01:43
de-factoyeah i am worried about bias too tbh01:44
de-factohard to match such patients with non-aspirin counterparts01:44
LjLbut i'm rather confused about long-term aspirin use, i feel like i've heard a wide range of things about it from good to bad (irrespective of COVID). so a question may be, would it be worth for people to just take aspirin to avoid COVID even if they have no particular issues that require aspirin?01:45
LjLunfortunately it's one of those things where the "feeling" i've heard many things is really that, just a feeling. i don't remember what the arguments for and against were.01:45
LjL%wik aspirin01:45
BrainstormLjL, from English Wikipedia: Aspirin, also known as acetylsalicylic acid (ASA), is a medication used to reduce pain, fever, or inflammation. Specific inflammatory conditions which aspirin is used to treat include Kawasaki disease, pericarditis, and rheumatic fever. Aspirin given shortly after a heart attack decreases the risk of death. [... want %more?] → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirin01:46
LjLi'm going to bed that has a few pros[citation needed] and cons[citation needed] of long-term use01:46
LjLi'm going to bet*01:46
LjLbut perhaps i should be going to bed too, maybe that's my subconscious telling me01:46
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: WHO urges Brazil to act as COVID deaths hit record high → https://is.gd/IogcXy01:47
LjLhmm maybe i'm losing that bet01:48
de-factoim also not determined yet about what i should think about Aspirin, all i know is that I can take low dose 100mg/day without any problems from it01:48
LjL"A meta-analysis through 2019 found that aspirin reduces the risk of cancer of the colorectum, esophagus, and stomach.[125]" ← that's interesting considering its side effects include upset stomach and stomach ulcers01:49
de-factobut that would not be enough to prevent thrombosis, for that id probably need ~300+ mg01:49
LjLde-facto, when wikipedia talks about low-dose it seems to be less than 100mg, 80mg or so01:50
LjL"40 mg of aspirin a day is able to inhibit a large proportion of maximum thromboxane A2 release provoked acutely, with the prostaglandin I2 synthesis being little affected; however, higher doses of aspirin are required to attain further inhibition.[32]"01:50
BrainstormUpdates for Brazil: +76178 cases (now 11.4 million), +1997 deaths (now 277102) since 16 hours ago — Germany: +10554 cases (now 2.6 million), +436 deaths (now 73907) since 18 hours ago — France: +19069 cases (now 4.0 million), +339 deaths (now 90315) since 20 hours ago — Canada: +3830 cases (now 907854), +37 deaths (now 22428) since 20 hours ago01:51
LjLanyway i think i do lose my bet, wikipedia repeatedly mentions US guidelines for taking low-dose aspirin, but it doesn't really seem to discuss its long-term risks, if any, only benefits...01:51
LjLi think my dad was taking low-dose aspirin for cardiocirculatory reasons but then something happened and they switched him to something else, i have no idea atm why and what, but i might want to ask.01:52
de-factothis study here suggests for thrombosis prevention higher than 100mg doses (~300mg) per day would be needed for normal weights https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31133-4/fulltext01:54
de-factobut the Isreal study above is not about thrombosis but rather about possible antiviral properties01:54
de-factoim really not sure what to think about it01:55
LjL"As01:56
LjLcompared  to  the  COVID-19-negative  group,  the  COVID-19-positive  group ... contained  a  significantly  lower  proportion  of  smokers" ← are we back to the "smoking protects you" thesis now? :D01:56
LjLand that's 7.3% vs 32.3%, wow01:57
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: British Airways calls for vaccinated people to travel without restrictions → https://is.gd/13iOUY01:57
LjLhonestly that may be a stronger correlation than the one with aspirin01:57
de-factoalso bit differences in smoker and socioeconomic cohorts01:59
de-factohmmm01:59
LjLde-facto, "Moreover, among aspirin users, a significantly higher proportion of subjects were treated with  ACE  inhibitors  (25  (34.25  %)),  ARBs  (10  (13.70  %))  and  statins  (52  (71.23  %)), relative to aspirin non-users (40 (6.79 %), p<0.001; 18 (3.06 %), p<0.001; and 56 (9.51%), p<0.001, respectively)."01:59
de-factoah you were faster :)01:59
LjLthis is pretty big, i think01:59
LjLi don't know what i think about ACE inhibitors given the confusion we already started having about them last year02:00
LjLbut i know that ACE2 is definitely implicated with COVID02:00
LjLand these percentages are widely different between the two groups02:00
LjLthen it says something about correcting for "multi-collinearity" but you may be better equipped to understand that :P02:01
LjL"To avoid  bias  due to comparison  of  a healthy,  more  socially  active  population  with  patients  suffering  from  severe cardiovascular  comorbidity,  we  excluded  all  subjects  taking  aspirin  for  secondary prevention." ← what would this mean exactly? they excluded only people who already had overt pathology, or also people at established cardiovascular risk even though they weren't quite sick yet?02:05
LjLwikipedia defines secondary prevention as "Methods to detect and address an existing disease prior to the appearance of symptoms.[18] Examples include treatment of hypertension (a risk factor for many cardiovascular diseases), and cancer screenings". so... among aspirin users (with COVID) in this study, more had hypertension, but they weren't given aspirin *because* of hypertension, or else they would have been excluded?02:06
de-facto"Unlike random assignment in clinical trials, where groups differ only in terms of treatment intervention, the treatment groups in observational studies, such as the  present  study,  are  likely  to  differ  with  respect  to  treatment  intervention  and  other variables that can  independently  affect  outcome."02:09
de-factoso they admit that there might be some bias they cant eliminate because its an observational study02:10
LjLde-facto, yes, if you read the "Statistical analysis" chapter they cover how they tried to deal with that, but it's like an alien language to me02:11
LjLanyway, something to do with multi-collinearity and VIF02:12
de-facto"Our data on the possible use of low-doses of aspirin for the prevention of COVID-19 infection are preliminary, yet intriguing."02:13
LjLbut02:14
LjL"Moreover,  there  were  no  differences  between  COVID-19-02:14
LjLpositive  and  COVID-19-negative  subjects  in  terms  of  the  proportion  of  patients  treated02:14
LjLwith ACE inhibitors (65 (9.82 %) vs.1162 (11.86 %)) and angiotensin II receptor blockers02:14
LjL(ARBs) (28(4.23 %) vs. 540 (5.51 %))(Table 1)"02:14
LjLwhoops newlines02:14
LjLso the patients treated with aspirin were much more likely to also be treated with ACE inhibitors or ARBs, *but*, ACE inhibitors and ARBs alone didn't seem to make a difference02:15
LjLon the other hand they seem to be conflating statins and aspirin a lot, i.e. the study is meant to be about aspirin but so far as i can see, they also find a positive effect from statins...?02:16
LjL(and an even better positive effect for people taking both)02:17
BrainstormNew from BBC Health: Covid has 'heightened' eating anxieties, say experts: The pandemic has been particularly challenging for people like Phoenix, say eating disorder experts. → https://is.gd/y3FVuB02:17
LjLbut i guess maybe aspirin is something more "prescribable" to people who are healthy overall than statins, so they find that more interesting as a potential prophylactic?02:17
de-factowell i am not sure, but i guess they try to establish an expectation value for those cofactors that impact COVID infection and severity and try to normalize for that, e.g. try to measure the impact on aspirin on those expectation values by the other cofactors or such?02:18
LjLde-facto, yes whatever but they make a different analysis for statins than they do for ACEi/ARBs02:20
de-factoyeah i have to admit its hard to estimate how well their compensation for all those cofactors might have been02:20
LjLsearch for "statins" in the text and read around all instances02:20
LjLanyway, i think i'd have to be a statistician to judge the quality of this study, i can't say much other than "a bunch of things including aspirin seem to correlate with COVID"02:21
LjLbut i guess i'd like to know more about the side effects of low-dose aspirin. if there are barely any, it might be a risk worth taking. i'll have to remember to ask my dad what happened to him that made him stop taking it02:22
LjLapparently the guidelines for prescribing it are something like, you have more than 10% risk of cardiovascular disease and more than 10 years of life expectancy, also some other blah blah02:22
de-factoprescribing? here one can buy that in pharmacy for free02:25
LjLde-facto, i'm staring at Table 1 though, and wondering what the heck is going on there... it seems that all those terrible comorbidities we keep hearing about barely make a difference on COVID-positive status (but okay, they may have an effect on prognosis), but on the other hand there is a *striking* correlation with smoking02:25
LjLde-facto, well, recommending, whatever02:25
LjLmight not be OTC in the US anyway02:25
LjLi'll quote the things from wp02:25
LjLIn the United States, low-dose aspirin is deemed reasonable in those between 50 and 70 years old who have a risk of cardiovascular disease over 10%, are not at an increased risk of bleeding, and are otherwise healthy.[78]02:25
LjLThe United States Preventive Services Task Force (USPSTF), as of 2016, recommends initiating low-dose aspirin use for the primary prevention of cardiovascular disease and colon cancer in adults aged 50 to 59 years who have a 10% or greater 10-year cardiovascular disease (CVD) risk, are not at increased risk for bleeding, have a life expectancy of at least 10 years, and are willing to take low-dose aspirin daily for at least 10 years.[98][78]02:25
LjLNine years later however, the USPSTF issued a grade B recommendation for the use of low-dose aspirin (75 to 100 mg/day) "for the primary prevention of CVD [cardiovascular disease] and CRC in adults 50 to 59 years of age who have a 10% or greater 10-year CVD risk, are not at increased risk for bleeding, have a life expectancy of at least 10 years, and are willing to take low-dose aspirin daily for at least 10 years".[78]02:26
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Italy Toughens COVID Restrictions, Imposes Easter Lockdown → https://is.gd/JepaDx02:27
LjLanyway why that difference in smoking, i'm really... yuriwho, hi?02:27
de-factosmoking, statins, all those may also affect it aswell, so how well their compensation for those cofactors succeeded is hard to tell02:28
de-factoit might be an interesting result if one could exclude bias, but thats impossible because its an observational study02:29
LjLbut then there's those regressions and VIF about it in the table, and i really cannot interpret those02:29
LjLde-facto, i'm just befuddled that from that table, smoking would seem highly protective02:29
de-factoat least they provide a lot of data, so thats already good :)02:31
de-factoproblem is something that looks like a causative correlation also just could correlate to something else (in the background) that is causative02:32
de-factoe.g. lifestyle02:32
de-factosuch things never can be excluded in observational studies02:33
LjLwell i doubt that smokers tend to have a much better lifestyle02:35
LjLmaybe they have more money, since it costs a ton these days, so it correlates to higher socioeconomic status which correlates with lower COVID?02:35
LjLbut then again, 7% vs 32% with a p value of basically zero, damn02:35
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Police in England 'using Covid lockdown rules to halt any protests' → https://is.gd/lnGwoO02:37
de-factono i meant looking at their table there that one might get the impression that those are people with different lifestyle or socioeconomic background02:38
LjL"Agreed - most people taking a daily baby aspirin do so for cardiovascular disease. And if you have or are at high risk for CVD you are probably being extra careful to avoid covid exposure. This is a retrospective analysis that starts with covid patients then looks at health background, but exposure is the primary cause of covid, after all.02:38
LjLSo the correlation might be sufficiently explained by behavior. Throughout the pandemic when we needed to designate one person from our family to go someplace with elevated exposure risk it was always me or the healthy teen, never the heart patient on aspirin." (a Reddit comment on this study, for your enjoyment)02:38
de-factooh they discussed it on reddit already?02:41
LjLde-facto, yes, and i asked my question right now here https://old.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/lttkiv/the_use_of_aspirin_for_primary_prevention_of/gquw3gv/02:46
LjLbut they discussed it several days ago so i doubt anyone will look at it again02:46
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Police blitz targets parties driving Brazil's deadly COVID-19 surge → https://is.gd/f7zGfH02:47
de-factointeresting02:48
LjLi didn't spot any exceptionally enlightening comments though02:48
de-factoyeah i am still undetermined what to think about this, the possible mechanisms they mention in their discussion are interesting, but i feel like i cant estimate the certainty of their results02:50
pwr22<LjL "Peter, i'm sorry... do you have "> Not when I last checked but I very rarely ever get fevers02:52
de-factoafaik if you get fever you might be able to take some paracetamol (they did that in their studies) but if you can avoid that it might be better02:53
LjLpwr22, what do you have? chills, fatigue...?02:54
de-factomake sure you drink enough02:54
LjLif you're feeling in a way that makes you seriously want to feel better, i'd say a paracetamol wouldn't be the end of the world02:55
de-factosure hence my mentioning it02:57
LjLwell i can add my opinion too! :P02:59
LjLafaik paracetamol has very low anti-inflammatory activity02:59
LjLso it makes your fever go down if you have it i guess, and in my experience it also generally makes you feel less crappy02:59
LjLbut if you're worried it might make the vaccine less effective, well, i don't know, but the low anti-inflammatory activity seems like a hint that maybe not02:59
LjLde-facto, i remember it was used in some trials, but do you remember if they compared people who got the paracetamol vs those who didn't in terms of whether there was any difference in antibody titers, or efficacy?03:00
de-factoyeah but if its not strictly necessary why potentially interfere? (i dont know if it can interfere, or if that can be excluded, id just avoid if not strictly necessary)03:00
de-factoi think i remember they used it in the AstraZeneca trials, but not if they researched any correlations with antibody titers or such03:01
LjLwell, we differ here i guess, if i were feeling shitty i would take it, because it's been used in trials and there is no obvious contraindication, and i don't like feeling shitty03:01
de-factoid guess if i read about them doing that i would remember though03:02
de-factoso i assume they did not write about such correlation (if they even investigated that)03:02
de-facto(again i dont know if that even would be expected at all)03:02
LjLmy page's coverage of astrazeneca sucks03:03
LjLbut luckily there is covidvax03:03
pwr22<LjL "Peter, what do you have? chills,"> Yeah I've already taken paracetamol, might be why no fever03:06
LjLwut, why was the EU trial of AZ "prematurely ended"? https://www.clinicaltrialsregister.eu/ctr-search/trial/2020-005226-28/DE  aren't they going to follow up for 2 years etc etc03:06
pwr22I was told paracetamol was ok03:07
de-facto.title https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31604-4/fulltext03:07
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: A Record 4.6 MILLION Covid Vaccine Doses Reported In U.S. Today → https://is.gd/4OAXrH03:07
de-facto"In two of the five trial sites (Oxford and Southampton), a protocol amendment (amendment date May 6, 2020) was implemented to allow prophylactic paracetamol to be administered before vaccination and participants were advised to continue with 1 g of paracetamol every 6 h for 24 h to reduce vaccine-associated reactions. All participants enrolled after the protocol amendment at these two sites were given prophylactic paracetamol and03:07
de-factorandomised equally to the vaccine or control arms of the study."03:07
Brainstormde-facto: From www.thelancet.com: Safety and immunogenicity of the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine against SARS-CoV-2: a preliminary report of a phase 1/2, single-blind, randomised controlled trial - The Lancet03:07
de-factothats quite a lot ...03:08
pwr22I take the max dose of candasarten, an ARB and I'm having terrible size effects from AZ (n=1)03:08
LjLde-facto, ah, i didn't find that because i was looking at phase 3's only03:08
de-factoi have no idea about that candasarten03:09
pwr22Just took my second paracetamol dose an hour ago, though technically night nurse so it might help me sleep03:09
de-factojust stay below that limit where it may become problematic for your liver03:10
de-facto(paracetamol)03:10
LjLpwr22, i can't interpret the latter part of your sentence, but in my experience paracetamol does improve sleep03:10
LjLi tend to always stay well below that limit, i usually just take 1x500mg, rarely 203:10
LjLbut pwr22 if you're feeling really bad, i dunno, at minimum call your doctor in the morning03:10
pwr22Just 1g every 4 hours here03:11
de-factohttps://www.drugs.com/paracetamol.html03:11
LjLpwr22, woah that's too much if you actually take it at that pace over 24h03:11
pwr22LjL  symptoms are delirium, headache, everything hurts or feels uncomfortable, chest discomfort, just feel terrible03:11
de-facto"Do not use more of this medication than is recommended. An overdose of paracetamol can cause serious harm. The maximum amount of paracetamol for adults is 1 gram (1000 mg) per dose and 4 grams (4000 mg) per day. Taking more paracetamol could cause damage to your liver. If you drink more than three alcoholic beverages per day, talk to your doctor before taking paracetamol and never use more than 2 grams (2000 mg) per day."03:11
pwr22<LjL "Peter, woah that's too much if y"> Max 4 times a day03:11
LjLIIRC the dosage considered safe when unprescribed is 3g a day, and 4g only under doctor supervision03:11
de-factoso stay below that i guess?03:11
LjLpwr22, i'd stay kinda below that tbh if i were you03:11
LjL2 or 3 if you can03:12
pwr22I was once taking that dose on prescription for a long time03:12
LjLwell your liver isn't going to love you for that03:12
pwr22And didn't seem to affect liver stuff previously03:12
LjLokay, i'm not a doctor, take whatever you feel you need that's within your doctor's / the leaflet's prescriptions03:13
pwr22ATM, since it's short term, I'm fine with pissing my liver off a little more03:13
pwr22Don't drink anymore so at least I have that03:13
LjLpwr22, one concern i have is if you take enough to entirely suppress fever, you don't know how much fever you *would* have03:13
de-factoits not pissing off it gets permanently damaged if you do wrong03:13
de-factoreally be careful, do NOT go over those limits03:14
pwr22My dad and brother are both pharmacists so I can check stuff03:14
de-factook03:14
LjLokay well03:14
LjLsince i'm taking no paracetamol today, i'm going to get a drink03:14
pwr22That level for short term usage shouldn't do any lasting harm03:14
pwr22My doctor didn't tell me I need to avoid paracetamol or anything sure to my slightly elevated liver stuff either03:14
pwr22Ha ha03:15
pwr22LjL  symptoms are delirium, headache, everything hurts or feels uncomfortable, feel terrible03:15
pwr22Chills03:15
pwr22Hurts to move03:15
LjLdelirium?03:15
pwr22That's all flu stuff too me03:15
de-factoid go with good eating, drinking enough and get a good sleep03:15
LjLdelirium usually goes with high fever03:16
pwr22My thinking gets more disturbed, my mental health issues flare up03:16
LjLthat's a troubling symptom03:16
pwr22It's normal for me with flu03:16
de-factothere even were studies that good sleeping was associated with significantly better results iirc03:16
pwr22I have had it consistently all my life03:16
de-facto(for vaccines)03:16
pwr22<de-facto "there even were studies that goo"> Yeah problem right now is I can't sleep03:16
LjLwell clearly i don't have a full medical picture of you, but please get in contact with your doctor about this when you can (doesn't help it's the weekend)03:16
pwr22Trying to distract myself by watching TV03:16
de-factosince sleep deficit can also induce immune suppression03:17
pwr22Pretty sure I've got the opposite of immune suppression going on 😅03:17
pwr22One thing I'm sure of is my immune system is pissed03:17
LjLthis too shall pass03:18
pwr22<LjL "well clearly i don't have a full"> Yeah, if it worsens or is still bad on Monday I'll call them for sure03:18
de-factowell thats good its kinda of the plan ... to piss it off seriously enough that it kills the pathogen right away if it ever should be challenged with the original03:18
pwr22But they will just tell me to get bed rest, plenty of fluids, take paracetamol lol03:18
LjLmaybe, yes03:18
LjLif you're lucky they'll report it as an adverse reaction03:18
LjLwhich means... it really doesn't make you lucky at all :P03:19
pwr22NHS is very hands off, especially ATM03:19
LjLbut i wish these things were properly reported03:19
pwr22<LjL "if you're lucky they'll report i"> Oh, I can do that directly myself03:19
LjLoh03:19
pwr22They gave me the instructions on how to do it and the batch number etc03:19
LjLpwr22, well i dunno about the NHS, i've heard that to be fair, but here in italy "NHS" doctors tend to kind of themselves despise the "NHS", so they'll just do whatever they think is appropriate as long as they won't get questioned about it (which is a big caveat)03:20
pwr22I guess when you get injected with 50 billion virons into a muscle then there isn't much of an incubation time03:20
LjLlol, no, i guess not03:20
pwr22Pretty sure they put loads of immune agonists in there too03:20
pwr22Iirc had histones and stuff03:21
LjLi guess that's why AZ might elicit more adverse effects on the *first* shot, the immune system is immediately seeing a virus, intead of some strange modified RNA that creates proteins later...?03:21
* LjL makes random theories03:21
LjLpwr22, hmmm i didn't think AZ had adjuvants but i'm often wrong03:21
pwr22Wait they have different things, wonder why they're in there?03:22
pwr22<LjL "i guess that's why AZ might elic"> Makes sense03:22
pwr22Thanks for talking to me guys, this convo is the best distraction so far lol03:22
pwr22I've never had a reaction this strong to a vaccine03:22
pwr22I do usually get some attenuated flu symptoms from the jabs, and the 2020 jab was way stronger for some reason03:23
pwr22But still didn't touch this level of agony ha03:23
LjLpwr22, well, i guess this is why some doctors and others were pressuring "the system" to actually tell people to expect, potentially, pretty strong symptom from their immune reaction03:24
LjLthe reasoning is, sure, you might scare people a little, but if you don't tell them and then it happens, they'll get MORE scared and shy away from the second jab03:24
LjLand i kind of agree with this reasoning because i tend to think transparency pays off03:24
LjLinstead just tell people "it's quite possible you'll get some bad flu-like symptoms from this jab. in the vast majority of cases that just makes you feel like shit for a day or two, and that's all. in exchange you get good protection from COVID"03:25
LjLnot instead, i don't know why i said instead03:25
* pwr22 uploaded an image: (124KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/shortestpath.dev/GmeNvTndAaDbBKkhfOoUlctk/20210314_022531_7149739041046548988.jpg >03:25
LjLi meant that if you tell people that, in a direct way, i think most won't be scared away03:26
LjLthey know what to expect, they know it's ultimately harmless, they know it's useful, sounds good to me03:26
LjLpwr22, lol, "this product contains GMOs" - can they even use it in the EU? :P03:26
LjL(obviously yes)03:27
pwr22<LjL "Peter, well, i guess this is why"> I was actually told that they would expect me to have significant side effects03:27
LjLpwr22, because of your conditions, or just in general?03:27
pwr22Maybe they have profiled my medical situation to estimate that?03:27
pwr22I'm unsure03:27
pwr22Though the NHS do actually do a lot of analysis on things03:27
LjLstrange to call histidine an excipient, if it has an active effect on the immune system03:27
pwr22For example when I had a DVT they didn't treat it with blood thinners because the a review of the literature said it wouldn't affect the outcome unless it migrated higher, and would just come with side effects and costs03:28
LjLdefinition of excipient from wp: ".... or to confer a therapeutic enhancement on the active ingredient in the final dosage form, such as facilitating drug absorption,[2][3] reducing viscosity,[4] or enhancing solubility" i guess a stretched view of that... but wouldn't this be called an adjuvant in the case of a vaccine?03:29
pwr22<LjL "Peter, lol, "this product contai"> Ha ha yeah03:29
pwr22Monkey germs03:29
LjL*modified* monkey germs!03:29
LjLif they weren't modified they wouldn't need a warning, although they'd be worse for you :P03:29
pwr22Yeah03:31
pwr22This is bad enough that I have had second thoughts about getting a second jab03:31
pwr22Though to be clear, I will03:31
LjLpwr22, don't quote me on this but i think in the case of AZ, adverse effects are usually less bad on the second jab, unlike Pfizer03:32
LjLalso curse your damned brexit, i keep seeing stuff on ebay i can no longer buy without customs hassles, and the ones i can buy have silly QWERTZ keyboards -.-03:33
pwr22Lol yeah fucking brexit03:34
pwr22Think the paracetamol is kicking in a bit, thank God03:35
LjL:)03:35
pwr22Temperature, as I feel it with my hand, is down too03:35
LjLthat's not a very good way to assess anything except the temperature of your hand, though :P03:36
LjLanyway i think you'll be fine. highly symptomatic COVID is much worse than this, and now (well, in a few days/weeks at least) you virtually can't get it.03:36
pwr22Yeah, no way it's covid imo03:40
pwr22The timing is perfect for the vaccine03:40
pwr22Maybe they call histidine an excipient because it encourages histamine production?03:40
LjLwell to me an excipient is mostly something that keeps the active ingredient safe and deliverable but has no active effect of its own03:41
LjLbut maybe i have an incorrect understanding03:41
LjLalso, groan wrt brexit: i look at the phase 1/2 trial in the UK as linked from covidvax.org, and it's https://www.clinicaltrialsregister.eu/ctr-search/trial/2020-001072-15/GB and what does that say? "End of Trial Status: GB - no longer in EU/EEA"03:42
LjLthanks! that's a very useful trial result to know ;(03:42
pwr22Seems to inhibit cytokines too03:42
pwr22Which seems relevant potentially03:43
pwr22Lol that sucks, the trial thing03:43
LjLwell but cytokine storm happens later in covid, how does that help unless it's somehow a permanent effect (doubtful)?03:44
pwr22I was just wondering if the spike protein could cause it?03:47
LjLde-facto, there is one lone statement in the lancet study, "Immunogenicity  among  those  who were advised to take paracetamol prophylactically was similar  to  that  seen  among  those  who  were  not  advised  to use it prophylactically (data not shown)."03:48
LjLpwr22, i guess we'd have seen it in vaccinated people by now. i don't think the other vaccines all include histidine, although i should have the ingredients of Pfizer in my email somewhere so i can check03:49
pwr22Even if it has an effect in a negative way, I'm sure it wouldn't be a 100% negation of it03:49
LjL%tr <it 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine, colesterolo, sodio fosfato bibasico diidrato, fosfato monobasico di potassio, cloruro di potassio, cloruro di sodio, saccarosio, acqua per preparazioni iniettabili03:50
BrainstormLjL, Italian to English: 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine, cholesterol, dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate, monobasic potassium phosphate, potassium chloride, sodium chloride, sucrose, water for injections (MyMemory, Google) [... want %more?]03:51
LjLthese are the excipients in Pfizer03:51
de-factoLjL, thanks for pointing that out, did not remember that03:51
de-factoyet id still stay within reasonable dosing with paracetamol e.g. similar to what they mention in their study there (as cited above)03:53
LjLsure, but that's 4g a day anyway, so the maximum allowable :P03:55
pwr22Yeah03:55
pwr22I always take the minimum anyway03:55
pwr22But 500mg wouldn't cut it for this level of stuff03:56
LjLi really don't feel great about my several upcoming dentist appointments :(04:22
LjLi wonder if i should go with my precious 3M mask. it's kinda difficult to put on, and when i'm in front of people i get all sorts of clumsy-embarrassed doing things.04:22
LjLi get pretty annoyed looking here https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations and seeing now the US ramping up, while the EU is at a steady, linear pace, very low, like the fact the disease rises exponentially doesn't matter04:27
CoronaBot/r/coronavirus: U.S. administers a record 4.6 million vaccines doses in one day, 105.7 million doses total (10218 votes) | https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2B50P9 | https://redd.it/m4ilvh04:50
LjL<Brainstorm> New from EU Press Releases: European Commission: Statement of the European Commission on the methodology used to determine the allocation of doses of vaccines under the Advance Purchase Agreements → https://is.gd/PwsOxc05:09
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Three people in Norway treated for “unusual symptoms” after AstraZeneca COVID-19 shots → https://is.gd/L589Vn05:30
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: 10 arrested, over 140 tickets given as thousands protest in Montreal against pandemic public health measures → https://is.gd/3eNuAP05:40
pwr22Wow US did 4 million shots in one day?05:42
the-wesmy health insurance provider emailed everyone a big update about vaccines and schedules and blah blah blah. one of the lines in the email was "we are committed to getting vaccines in the arms of everyone who needs them as soon as possible!"05:57
the-wesI chuckled.05:57
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: 71 countries, 58 million doses, India’s vaccine diplomacy gets Quad booster → https://is.gd/oPwIOD06:00
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: COVID? What COVID? Taiwan thrives as a bubble of normality. → https://is.gd/N4LLJJ06:11
BrainstormUpdates for Belgium: +3598 cases (now 805321), +24 deaths (now 22421) since 23 hours ago — France: +14892 cases (now 4.0 million) since 23 hours ago — Netherlands: +3236 cases (now 1.2 million), +11 deaths (now 16081) since 23 hours ago — United Kingdom: +2788 cases (now 4.3 million), +61 deaths (now 125478) since 23 hours ago06:37
BrainstormNew preprint: Predictive and Causal Analysis of No-Shows for Medical Exams During COVID-19: A Case Study of Breast Imaging in a Nationwide Israeli Health Organization by Michal Ozery-Flato et al, made available as preprint on 2021-03-13 at https://medrxiv.org/cgi/content/short/2021.03.12.21253358 [... want %more?]06:56
CoronaBot/r/covid19: Rapid implementation of a cohort for the study of post-acute sequelae of SARS-CoV-2 infection/COVID-19 (80 votes) | https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.11.21252311v1 | https://redd.it/m4jhpf07:20
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Bahamas resort offers free private flights or courtesy stays for guests who test positive for COVID-19 → https://is.gd/iT1loz07:52
BrainstormNew from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | March 14, 2021: Please refer to our Wiki for more information on COVID-19 and our sub. You can find answers to frequently asked questions in our FAQ , where there is valuable information such as our: → https://is.gd/I6ietu08:02
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Utah mother dies four days after taking second COVID-19 vaccine dose → https://is.gd/DHfx8n08:52
BrainstormUpdates for Valparaiso, Chile: +547 cases (now 55247), +6 deaths (now 1699) since a day ago — France: +16882 cases (now 4.1 million) since 13 hours ago — Lombardy, Italy: +5809 cases (now 662704), +66 deaths (now 29159) since a day ago — Netherlands: +4146 cases (now 1.2 million), +17 deaths (now 16087) since 16 hours ago10:03
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: EU struggles with vaccine delays and new Covid surge → https://is.gd/3BlBxX10:03
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: EU's 'vaccine passports' will only be valid with EMA-approved COVID jabs → https://is.gd/xycDDl10:23
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: AstraZeneca announces further cuts in COVID vaccine deliveries to EU citing production woes at Belgian plant and export restrictions elsewhere, aims to deliver only 40 million doses in Q1 out of 120 million initially promised. → https://is.gd/JvwL9B10:44
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Ireland to pause use of AstraZeneca vaccine as precaution while blood clot concerns are investigated → https://is.gd/6qHyov11:14
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): Global COVID Cases For 14MAR21: Summary As Of: 14MAR @ 09:48 GMT Countries 219 + 2 Cases 119,570,351 Deaths 2,658,679 Recovered 96,529,551 Active Cases 20,816,846 Countries reporting new cases in this update: 60 Countries reporting new deaths in this update: 33 With Active cases w/No Active cases w/All cases rcvrd Cntry’s 212 [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/Gw8oo711:34
pwr22This AZ blood clot thing is cary11:52
pwr22*scary11:52
ArsaneritIs it really?12:18
de-facto[m]Afaik there is no connection proven so far and if there was it must be very rare with how many AZ shots been given already and noone complaining about clots12:38
BrainstormNew from Politico: Clinical trials: Ireland hits pause on AstraZeneca jab over blood clot concerns → https://is.gd/asJHVg12:46
ubLIX[m]hmm. covid is a clotting disorder. people suffering from blood clots during covid pandemic... what could be the connection?!12:46
BrainstormubLIX[m]: At 2021-03-13 01:59:39 UTC, LjL told you: strange way to publish a preprint, but here you go: https://github.com/ChronicDiseaseEpi/hcw/blob/master/vaccine_manuscript.pdf they find a marked reduction in infections among households of vaccinated healthcare workers in Scotland12:46
BrainstormNew from NPR: Relief Money Could More Than Double Support For Child Care Needs In Mississippi: Carol Burnett, who heads an advocacy group for child care centers, says the funds will help mothers enormously — "whether they're trying to get out of poverty" or "find a pathway to higher income." → https://is.gd/YGvHPk12:56
ubLIX[m]hmm. as of 2 days ago, 30 clotting events in AZ vaccinated population of 5 million. i appreciate the value of the precautionary principle, but given the naturalness of blood clots, especially in the demographics likely to be prioritised for vaccination, and the central role that clotting plays in covid-19, and the possible role of post-vaccination risk compensation, and the fact that vaccination tends to involve sharing13:07
ubLIX[m]an indoor space for 15 minutes in a setting where the goal is maximum throughput of people, i'm not sure i understand why AZ involvement is seriously considered13:07
ubLIX[m]would like to see summary relevant medical history for those 30 events, and recent contact trace history, and of course autopsy pcr test results13:08
de-factothey are investigating that13:56
de-factohttps://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca-prac-investigating-cases-thromboembolic-events-vaccines-benefits13:58
de-facto"The number of thromboembolic events in vaccinated people is no higher than the number seen in the general population. As of 10 March 2021, 30 cases1 of thromboembolic events had been reported among close to 5 million people vaccinated with COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca in the European Economic Area."13:58
de-factoso that means its not going above expectation value according to their statement there13:58
de-factoi think its good that they investigate this, but tbh i dont expect that the will find any connection there, so i am not worried about that and would take AZ shot if offered13:59
de-factohttps://www.pei.de/DE/newsroom/hp-meldungen/2021/210311-covid-19-vaccine-astra-zeneca-erklaerung-pei.html14:02
de-factohttps://www.pei.de/EN/newsroom/hp-news/2021/210311-covid-19-vaccine-astra-zeneca-statement-pei.html14:02
de-facto"As of 10 March 2021, 30 cases of thromboembolic events have been reported in more than 5 million people vaccinated with the AstraZeneca vaccine in the European Economic Area (EEA), according to the EMA. This number is no higher than the number of thromboembolic events that would occur statistically by chance in the exposed population even without vaccination."14:03
de-facto"In Germany, a total of 11 reports of different thromboembolic events have been reported in approximately 1.2 million vaccinations as of 11 March 2021. Four individuals died. In reviewing the currently available information on German and international reports of thromboembolic events following vaccination with AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine, there is currently no evidence that vaccination caused these illnesses. In agreement with the EMA,14:03
de-factothe Paul-Ehrlich-Institut believes that the benefits of vaccination outweigh the known risks.14:03
de-facto"14:03
de-factoso no reason to worry or be scared, let them do their job an investigate, but it does not look like there is an obvious causative connection14:05
de-factoas stated before the begin of the vaccination campaign: we will hear about all kinds of weirdest possible effects, just because so many people will receive a vaccination and will be under observation with much more rigor than they are usually in their everyday life14:06
de-factoalways the question should be asked: is it statistically raised in the vaccination cohort, e.g. does it deviate from the expectation value for people under the same circumstances (e.g. age, health status, environment and lifestyle but also COVID risk etc) without vaccinations?14:08
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid-19: Ireland suspends use of Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine → https://is.gd/Ho000V14:08
CoronaBot/r/covid19: Comparison of clinical characteristics and disease outcome of COVID-19 and seasonal influenza (80 votes) | https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-85081-0 | https://redd.it/m4kk0a14:30
de-factojust went voting, no queues, few people all with FFP2 or FFP3 mask, widely open windows on two sides, all with separated plexiglas barriers, no shared surface touching, they even provided a neutral pen (and i could keep it as gift :)15:08
de-factoi would assume (almost) no additional infections IF it is like that in all voting locations, they had a very good hygiene concept imho15:08
rpifanvoting where?15:09
rpifanin the landswahl?15:09
rpifande-facto, did you vote die linke15:10
de-factolooool nopeeee15:10
de-factoomg.15:10
rpifanAFD15:12
de-factoOMG never ever15:13
de-facto(and i am not telling which i voted). no further comments on that.15:13
de-factoi just wanted to say that they solved the hygiene problem very well imho15:14
rpifanbad15:14
rpifanyou need ot vote for die linke15:14
rpifanor bundis 90 grune15:15
de-factovoting is very important especially in such times, and they demonstrated they were able to implement a sane hygiene concept that (almost) does not increase the risk for infection at all imho, so very well done for those citizens that implemented it in such a way15:16
rpifani voted in my local consulate for my countries elections15:19
rpifanbut its such a small community here15:19
rpifanthat its not surprising it went ok15:19
de-factoi think many also voted via postal vote here15:23
de-factowas much less people than usual there at the voting center15:23
rpifanyea15:24
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Lagging vaccination rate puts Canadian factories at competitive disadvantage → https://is.gd/dwG7zR15:41
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Police in England 'using Covid lockdown rules to halt any protests' | Protest | The Guardian → https://is.gd/whryPx16:22
Haley[m]%cases France16:31
BrainstormHaley[m]: In France, there have been 4.1 million confirmed cases (6.0% of the population) and 90315 deaths (2.2% of cases) as of 6 hours ago. 56.8 million tests were performed (7.1% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=France for time series data.16:31
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: US refusing to ship 20M doses of Astra Zeneca vaccine to Canada, even though the US hasn’t approved the Astra Zeneca vaccine for use → https://is.gd/jfPXRd16:33
pwr22I thought that these recent thrombolytic events represented an usual clustering that might suggest a problem batch?16:40
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Dutch riot police use water cannon to disperse anti-lockdown protesters → https://is.gd/6nQ23S16:43
BrainstormNew from NPR: Ireland Joins List Of Countries Pausing Use Of AstraZeneca's COVID-19 Vaccine: Ireland has temporarily suspended use of the COVID-19 vaccine made by AstraZeneca following reports that several people developed blood clots after receiving the shot. → https://is.gd/dgP6Tz16:53
BrainstormUpdates for Finland: +863 cases (now 66869) since a day ago — Germany: +12885 cases (now 2.6 million) since 23 hours ago — Switzerland: +3 deaths (now 10111) since a day ago17:07
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): Sunday 14 March 2021 Update: submitted by /u/HippolasCage to r/CoronavirusUK → https://is.gd/wtUtNg17:35
LjLubLIX[m], de-facti: afaik that 30 out of 5m number has only ever been used in the media to say "it's no higher than expected". What's being stressed as leading to the suspension and recalls is two (at least two, dunno if there's more) incidents involving deaths after using the same batch of AZ in Australia and Denmark, and with a separate lot involved, three deaths in Sicily. This may seem an even more irrelevantly small sample but I'm just pointing out that18:48
LjLthere have to be, and there are, other considerations than just "do any more than expected people die": for instance there can be some obvious temporal association, and for instance in the Italian cases these were fit military people... So going back to the 30 out of 5m, I think before making any statement about the significance of that I'd want to see each case's details in... detail, i.e. what specifically happened from vaccination to adverse event, how muc18:48
LjLh time elapsed, what were the prior health conditions of these people, etc... I doubt the media are even asking these questions, nevermind answering them18:48
LjLpwr22: I thought that these recent thrombolytic events represented an usual clustering that might suggest a problem batch? <- I don't know about that tbh because iirc Austria suspended the batch before the Danish case even happened, so for all I know they had... one death...? But that again makes me say, there must have something particularly suspicious after that death, because otherwise they'd have halted AZ already a bunch of time since when you18:50
LjLjab millions of people, hey, some will definitely die anyway18:50
LjLpwr22: how are you today?18:50
LjLhttps://www.euronews.com/2021/03/12/eu-s-green-pass-for-free-movement-will-only-be-valid-with-ema-approved-covid-vaccinations makes me question, for a change, the geopolitical reasons for the EU's vaccine choices and now also their "stubborn meaniness" against countries choosing to go their own ways in the face of a highly ineffective and undrrdelivering EU-wide vaccine campaign. Be grown ups and say "okay, it hasn't worked out the way we hoped, we understand18:57
LjLthat countries now will be pursuing their own strategies, that's okay"... especially considering the worries with non-EMA-approved vaccines would largely be with safety, not efficacy, since when it comes to efficacy we already have vaccines where that's quite marginal, and definitely worse than Sputnik, and basically zero with the SA variant... So what is the rational reason to limit travel based on which vaccine you've taken?! Right now we have travel with j18:57
LjLst a negative test or even less than that. This is just pettiness now. EU, step up or shut up.18:57
BrainstormNew from NPR: More U.S. Travelers Are Flying Again Despite COVID-19 Risks: Friday marked the busiest day for the nation's airports since COVID-19 put the brakes on air travel almost a year ago. But the number of travelers remains far below 2019 levels. → https://is.gd/Hh1v4J18:58
BrainstormUpdates for Italy: +21304 cases (now 3.2 million), +264 deaths (now 102145) since 22 hours ago — Netherlands: +9898 cases (now 1.2 million), +35 deaths (now 16105) since 20 hours ago — United Kingdom: +7164 cases (now 4.3 million), +134 deaths (now 125578) since 22 hours ago — Canada: +3079 cases (now 909391) since 22 hours ago19:06
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Once a virus epicenter, Los Angeles set to reopen - partly: The last time Brittney Valles welcomed diners into Guerrilla Tacos, her restaurant was open for a mere five hours in July before being ordered to close again because of the surging coronavirus pandemic. → https://is.gd/LoitE319:08
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Italian region suspends AstraZeneca jabs after death: Italy's northern Piedmont region on Sunday suspended use of the AstraZeneca vaccine after the death of a teacher who had received it the day before, the regional health authority said. → https://is.gd/wBWjdj19:40
pwr22<LjL "Peter: how are you today?"> I'm feeling a bit better thanks, not good but definitely not so bad19:40
pwr22Started feeling a bit better this morning, so around 24h after the jab19:41
LjLpwr22: hopefully you'll be fine tomorrow, generally I've heard these side effects last a couple of days, although I don't have personal reports except from you, just what I read19:46
pwr22Yeah, I'm taking it easy, in and out of bed, trying to get rest19:46
pwr22I'll probably take tomorrow off work19:46
pwr22Hopefully be good enough by Tuesday so I can run an interview then19:47
LjLI would say good luck but that's bad luck in Italy19:49
pwr22Lol20:05
pwr22I'll take it anyway, thanks20:05
LjLI'm hearing of police incidents related to lockdown riots, and then subsequent police violence, and then more riots against the police violence... seemingly everywhere: yesterday it was an article about Greece, where I kind of already know this is taking place because I know someone there, then now I read a shot was fired in riots in the Hague, then TV news says something about police and lockdown protests in London...20:05
LjLpwr22: superstition tidbits: we say "in the wolf's mouth" to wish good luck in many situations, like an exam, and the classic response is "may the wolf die" except nowadays ecological sentiment has mounted a campaign to change that into "long live the wolf"20:07
pwr22Lol20:11
LjLI find the latter part kinda funny because you see, you don't get rid of the silly superstition, no, why would you do that (then you could no longer yell at people who say "good luck" and chastise them for saying it, which is surely a lot of fun), but instead you modernize the superstition20:16
CoronaBot/r/covid19: Symptoms and quality of life following hospitalisation for COVID-19 (Post COVID-19 Syndrome/Long COVID) preliminary results from the ISARIC Clinical Characterisation Protocol UK (81 votes) | https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/968920/sage-long-covid-presentation.pdf | https://redd.it/m4vfal20:21
BrainstormUpdates for France: +37632 cases (now 4.1 million), +127 deaths (now 90442) since 20 hours ago — Germany: +16533 cases (now 2.6 million) since 23 hours ago — Canada: +3282 cases (now 909677), +30 deaths (now 22446) since 23 hours ago — United Kingdom: +7178 cases (now 4.3 million) since 22 hours ago22:19
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: French must avoid lockdown as infections hold above 26,000: PM says → https://is.gd/aNlsai22:45
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: EU's Breton says Pfizer can help offset AstraZeneca vaccine delays → https://is.gd/68W8pC22:56
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): Statistical relevance of deaths after vaccination: Let me immediately say that I am 100% willing to vaccinate, to advise people around me to do the same, and that the following text is not about creating doubts about covid-19 vaccines. I just would like to go a bit deeper about an hot topic. → https://is.gd/4FyDD023:06
LjLthat article about Breton lashing out at AZ has some... vague hints of things?23:08
LjL"Breton said that AstraZeneca had issues with testing, which were a sign of logistics problems, and urged its board of directors to take action."23:08
LjLalso magically Pfizer can now produce "much much more than planned"23:12
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Thousands protest Quebec’s COVID-19 lockdown measures, several arrests made: Montreal police → https://is.gd/DE1eqH23:26
CoronaBot/r/covid19: Update on the safety of COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca (80 votes) | https://www.astrazeneca.com/content/astraz/media-centre/press-releases/2021/update-on-the-safety-of-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca.html | https://redd.it/m50x7123:34
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): nCoV: Uganda: Government Reassures Public On Covid-19 Vaccine | 14MAR21 → https://is.gd/HpdPcA23:37
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): nCoV: Covid-19: NI to keep using AstraZeneca jab after Irish suspension | 14MAR21 → https://is.gd/BVLPPj23:47

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