| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Facebook bans 1.3 billion accounts while trying to combat fake news about COVID-19 → https://is.gd/cNBC4e | 00:14 |
|---|---|---|
| de-facto | EMA website is broken | 00:26 |
| de-facto | cant login anymore | 00:26 |
| de-facto | account management says its active. wtf. | 00:29 |
| de-facto | they claim "Error:Incorrect user name and/or password. Please try again" which is a lie because i can login with exactly those into my account management where everything looks fine. | 00:33 |
| de-facto | i guess their IT is broken | 00:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Lancet (Online): [Correspondence] Gender, race, and health workers in the COVID-19 pandemic: The Editors1 correctly highlighted the situation the health workforce is in, and how it is facing “serious harms to their physical and mental wellbeing while trying to deliver quality care” during the COVID-19 pandemic. Considering the health [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/21OFJ3 | 00:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: China is trying to pressure governments in South America to adopt pro-CCP political positions in exchange for the vaccine → https://is.gd/9IiX0U | 00:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Brazil's Coronavirus Death Count Surpasses 300,000 → https://is.gd/9BOxte | 01:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Middle-aged women 'worst affected by long Covid', studies find → https://is.gd/SZ7rl7 | 01:27 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: EU proposes vaccine controls as 'raid' in Italy uncovers millions of AstraZeneca doses → https://is.gd/Mj2TWl | 01:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Canada adds blood clot warning to AstraZeneca's COVID-19 vaccine → https://is.gd/Qbaqsa | 02:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): COVID19: AZD1222 US Phase III primary analysis confirms safety and efficacy → https://is.gd/qNruSJ | 03:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Breaking News: Pushing back against U.S. health officials, AstraZeneca says new analysis confirms efficacy of its Covid-19 vaccine → https://is.gd/AEuMh1 | 03:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Merkel says British coronavirus variant more dangerous to children → https://is.gd/adYkxB | 04:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: It’s a bird! It’s a plane! It’s Emmanuel Macron.: French president's advisers portray their leader as a superhero bravely battling the coronavirus. Sometimes. → https://is.gd/V0pYSH | 04:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from Ars Technica: Science: After dramatic rebuke, AstraZeneca lowers vaccine efficacy estimate—a little → https://is.gd/lEYK7R | 05:15 |
| LjL | de-facto, lol this is ridiculous, look at the AZ news above. now it's 76%. are they bargaining on efficacy or something? "okay we won't say 79% anymore, but 74% is too low, what about 76%?" | 05:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: How Much Did We Gain During Lockdowns? 2 Pounds a Month, Study Hints → https://is.gd/cHY7mH | 06:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Free with your Covid shot: Beer, arcade tokens and Krispy Kreme doughnuts → https://is.gd/D6wifR | 06:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine 76% effective in updated US trial results → https://is.gd/dALRYQ | 06:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Study finds 11 new coronavirus variants in Brazil, puting the world on alert as the country refuses to do a national lockdown to avoid new cases and mutations. → https://is.gd/HOvcJP | 07:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | March 25, 2021: Please refer to our Wiki for more information on COVID-19 and our sub. You can find answers to frequently asked questions in our FAQ , where there is valuable information such as our: → https://is.gd/D3AVum | 08:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: What's new: Medicine: Human medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): Hexacima, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis (acellular, component), hepatitis B (rDNA), poliomyelitis (inactivated) and Haemophilus influenzae type b conjugate vaccine (adsorbed), Hepatitis B,Tetanus,Immunization,Meningitis, Haemophilus,Whooping [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/S2uJN3 | 09:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: After U.S. failures on Covid, Congress is working to prepare America to fight the next pandemic: SCOOP: Congress is gearing up to work on legislation to prevent the next pandemic, and a former top Trump health official is returning to the Hill to help make it… → https://is.gd/VTLHon | 09:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Opinion: Biden should use emergency powers to license Covid-19 vaccine technologies to the WHO for global access: By licensing Covid-19 vaccine technologies to the WHO's Covid-19 Technology Access Pool, President Biden would bring American leadership to the world stage, avert catastrophe, promote justice, and protect his fellow… → https://is.gd/GD5sJx | 09:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: AstraZeneca confirms strong vaccine protection after US rift: AstraZeneca insisted Wednesday that its COVID-19 vaccine is strongly effective even after counting additional illnesses in its disputed U.S. study, the latest in an extraordinary public rift with American officials. → https://is.gd/ASpyoy | 10:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: What's new: Medicine: Veterinary medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): Nobilis Influenza H5N2, adjuvanted inactivated vaccine against avian influenza virus type A, subtype H5, Date of authorisation: 01/09/2006, Revision: 8, Status: Authorised → https://is.gd/PrHaOU | 10:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: What's new: Medicine: Human medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): Hexyon, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis (acellular, component), hepatitis B (rDNA), poliomyelitis (inactivated) and Haemophilus influenzae type b conjugate vaccine (adsorbed), Hepatitis B,Tetanus,Immunization,Meningitis, Haemophilus,Whooping [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/1JV6WM | 10:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: AstraZeneca plant inspected by Italian police at EU's request → https://is.gd/gGJ14V | 10:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Poor legislation and pandemic fatigue will make Poland's new lockdown hard to enforce → https://is.gd/sPvuSU | 10:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Scientists find evidence that novel coronavirus infects the mouth's cells: An international team of scientists has found evidence that SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, infects cells in the mouth. While it's well known that the upper airways and lungs are primary sites of SARS-CoV-2 infection, there are clues the [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/EkLGtQ | 11:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Remote management of covid-19 using home pulse oximetry and virtual ward support: What you need to knowPulse oximeters used at home can detect hypoxia associated with acute covid-19Home oximetry requires clinical support, such as regular phone contact from a health professional in... → https://is.gd/ncBgdM | 11:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from Scientific American: Hidden Toll of COVID in Africa Threatens Global Pandemic Progress: Kenya and other African countries are reporting relatively few COVID cases, but studies suggest that the continent’s true burden of disease may be undercounted. → https://is.gd/Rwivgw | 12:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: Coronavirus: Coronavirus outbreak interrupts Dutch coalition talks → https://is.gd/tMKt3a | 12:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Supply isn’t the only thing stymying Europe’s vaccine rollout → https://is.gd/0M3ELt | 13:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): China_Flu: Beijing must come clean about COVID-19 origins | Opinion → https://is.gd/uHUU5T | 13:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: What's new: News: COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca – Update on ongoing evaluation of blood clot cases → https://is.gd/hMqti8 | 14:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Pharma: STAT+: Pharmalittle: AstraZeneca revises Covid-19 vaccine effectiveness; contractors grab a big slice of vaccine revenues → https://is.gd/sETbpw | 14:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from WebMD: States Begin Opening COVID-19 Vaccines to All Adults: Several states are opening COVID-19 vaccine eligibility to all adults in the next week, with more states to follow throughout April. → https://is.gd/Usq91x | 14:33 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Comunicato stampa del Consiglio dei Ministri n. 9 ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/comunicato-stampa-del-consiglio-dei-ministri-n-9/16491 ) | 14:42 | |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: People shun malaria testing over mistaken COVID-19 fears: Fears of contracting COVID-19 are preventing people accessing vital health services, experts say. → https://is.gd/zMvGXE | 14:55 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Coronavirus: Daily Number of Fatalities Hits Record High Once Again → https://is.gd/rNo627 | 15:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Many countries that managed the pandemic well had one thing in common: Culture matters more than a leader's gender in how a nation survives a global pandemic, according to a study I conducted on gender and COVID-19 management, which was published in December in the journal PLOS ONE. → https://is.gd/9m0XeO | 15:17 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: HHS is urged to use its patents for the Moderna Covid-19 vaccine to widen global access: Seeking to quickly widen global access to Covid-19 vaccines, academics, and patient advocates are urging the Biden administration to use a key patent owned by the U.S. government to boost… → https://is.gd/NNunme | 15:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express (Health): Fitness: Indians have increased their time spent working out post COVID-19: Survey → https://is.gd/NnOQ6f | 15:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: [CROSSPOST] AskScience AMA Series: I am Elliott Haut, MD, PhD, FACS, a trauma surgeon from The Johns Hopkins Hospital in the United States. I'm here to talk about all things blood clots, from deep vein thrombosis and pulmonary embolism, to COVID-19 and clots. AMA! → https://is.gd/o2Dm5O | 15:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: EU Confidential #193, presented by the European Training Foundation: Vax attacks — German scandals — Syria conflict: Vaccine exports and Angela Merkel’s lockdown mea culpa are discussed in this episode, as well as what Europe can do to ease suffering in Syria, 10 years after the conflict there began. → https://is.gd/XO1mqL | 16:00 |
| rpifan | i dont really get what she apologized about | 16:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Opinion: Shattering the infertility myth: What we know about Covid-19 vaccines and pregnancy: During trying times, myths and falsehoods sprout like mushrooms after rainfall. Covid-19 has generated many around vaccines and pregnancy and infertility. → https://is.gd/3qDKnP | 16:44 |
| de-facto | we will see pretty soon what she apologized about, just give it a little time... | 16:50 |
| darsie | Mass infertility would be great. | 17:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Iceland introduces restrictions after UK variant is detected: Gym classes, happy hours and the near-normal life enjoyed so far by the people of Iceland ended abruptly on Thursday, when the government ordered new restrictions after detecting six coronavirus cases believed to be the variant first found in Britain. → https://is.gd/znq9Ir | 17:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from WebMD: COVID Variants Detected in Animals, May Find Hosts in Mice: Several new studies found evidence of infection by coronavirus variants in mice as well as pet dogs and cats. → https://is.gd/TJ6Aia | 17:27 |
| Brainstorm | New from In The Pipeline: Comprehensive Covalent Probe Time: I really enjoyed this new paper on ChemRxiv, a Munich/Michigan/Berkeley collaboration on reactive covalent groups and their profile across different proteins. There have been a number of papers addressing this subject before, but this one is the most comprehensive one I’ve ever seen, and [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/z8xl5B | 17:38 |
| Arsanerit | Can we put Karl Lauterbach in charge, please? | 17:40 |
| de-facto | full ack | 17:41 |
| de-facto | we would be in a whole other scenario with him in charge | 17:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from Emma Hodcroft: @firefoxx66: R to @firefoxx66: This map-GIF from Oct 2020 - Mar 2021 gives an idea of how the variants of concern (reds & oranges - largest, reddest is 501Y.V1/B.1.1.7) have spread and grown across Europe.(Made from http://nextstrain.org/ncov/europe?f_region=Europe)3/3 → https://is.gd/I0P4Qk | 18:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from ScienceNews: AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine holds up in an updated analysis of trial data: The redo dropped the overall efficacy of AstraZeneca’s vaccine from 79 percent to 76 percent. But a slight fluctuation is not unexpected, experts say. → https://is.gd/WcNxEV | 18:11 |
| de-facto | .title https://imgur.com/a/vyTJSoc https://i.imgur.com/wuvh32C.png source: https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/Projekte_RKI/Nowcasting.html and https://www.intensivregister.de/#/aktuelle-lage/zeitreihen | 18:16 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From imgur.com: COVID-19 Germany: cases, reproduction and COVID-ICUs - Album on Imgur | 18:16 |
| LjL | de-facto, do you know why Merkel cancelled the "Easter lockdown"? was that also pressure from the länder? | 18:16 |
| de-facto | they claim because "of legal reasons" e.g. they could not introduce a out of order holiday so quickly. i dont buy it though | 18:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: Rutgers To Require Vaccine Proof For 'All Students Planning To Attend This Fall': The New Jersey school says its new COVID-19 requirement will help it make "a full return to our pre-pandemic normal" on campus. → https://is.gd/MR3htJ | 18:22 |
| de-facto | LjL, me personally i think negotiating with the ministers resulted into a compromise, taking back restrictions in general for doing a hard lockdown during eastern (because it would coincide with many public holidays anyhow). after having agreed upon that for some reason economy lobbyists or lawyers destroyed the easter lockdown too, so now we basically are left with less restrictions than before the meeting, they dont even implement the | 18:27 |
| de-facto | previously consensus on implementing an emergency break on weekly incidence over 100/100k and leave schools open | 18:27 |
| de-facto | now lawyers are also trying to attack closing of stores etc | 18:27 |
| de-facto | they are destroying everything that is left from containment, piece by piece | 18:28 |
| de-facto | and Merkel knows that, hence imho the real reason for her apology is that she knows this will explode now, and the situation will become very bad. all that we did fight for in the winter so hard is wasted in record time now | 18:29 |
| de-facto | but it seems thats only my private opinion, i am not sure how many Germans would agree with me on that, i think its a huge fail and will result in a disaster | 18:31 |
| de-facto | imho Merkel should create a taskforce of lawyers to minimize attack surface and block any possibility to attack biosecurity | 18:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: STAT+: FDA panel says risks of Pfizer pain drug outweigh the benefits: A panel of expert advisers to the Food and Drug Administration concluded that the risks of an investigational pain treatment from Pfizer might outweigh its benefits — likely a major… → https://is.gd/y2VDCN | 18:33 |
| de-facto | then she should consult epidemiologists and base her strategy entirely on their recommendation without any compromise and force ministers to comply and implement that without any further questions | 18:33 |
| de-facto | unfortunately the opposite is what is happening right now, nothing is based on any scientific concepts, all is based on politics and lawyers and lobbyist interests | 18:34 |
| de-facto | imho it demonstrates that federalism is a fundamental failing concept, it just does not work in crisis situations at all | 18:35 |
| de-facto | i wish there was one central government in EU and every hierarchy below it only implements their decisions, its the only sane way to have open borders and defend the outside borders by closing them down | 18:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): Thursday 25 March 2021 Update: submitted by /u/HippolasCage to r/CoronavirusUK → https://is.gd/96ycjL | 18:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from WebMD: Take 10 With Jeffrey Wright: Actor and activist Jeffrey Wright talks about helping frontline workers when coronavirus hit, his art and activism, and more. → https://is.gd/IBrfLE | 19:27 |
| LjL-Matrix | Uh, not sure what Matrix is thinking, but Brainstorm only sent that message once | 19:58 |
| de-facto | EU exports over 70M in 33 countries but did not import any from outside of EU | 20:09 |
| LjL | de-facto, is that in the last...? or since the beginning? | 20:14 |
| de-facto | its what they just said in the tv news | 20:16 |
| de-facto | id assume since the beginning | 20:17 |
| LjL | i'd say we're back to roughly the regular usercount | 20:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Michigan sees virus surge, but tighter restrictions unlikely: Michigan, which not long ago had one of the country's lowest COVID-19 infection rates, is confronting an alarming spike that some experts worry could be a harbinger nationally. → https://is.gd/9yHkwD | 20:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: Merkel perfects the art of the political apology: The German chancellor asked for forgiveness over a bungled plan to lockdown the country over Easter. → https://is.gd/SmSWHR | 21:10 |
| de-facto | yeah hence we need a curfew and hard lockdown sooner, great | 21:15 |
| de-facto | question: which country did get B.1.1.7 under control without curfew or hard strict lockdown? | 21:18 |
| de-facto | answer: no country, why would it be different for Germany? i dont see any reason to assume that. | 21:19 |
| de-facto | conclusion: for each day we tolerate incidence to rise we need more than one day to bring it down to the same value, hence we are wasting a lot of time and resources right now by ignoring B.1.1.7 | 21:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: AstraZeneca and the very good, then quite bad, then deeply confusing week: Who's to blame for the AstraZeneca vaccine scandal? Can boldness backfire for pharma CEOs? And is the U.S.-U.K. special relationship on the rocks? Find out on the latest episode of… → https://is.gd/WLCFgq | 21:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from Shane Crotty: @profshanecrotty: R to @profshanecrotty: 12:23 If I’ve had COVID-19, shouldn’t my vaccine dose go to someone else?14:02 Is natural immunity always better than a vaccine?20:05 If you’ve had COVID-19, when should you get vaccinated? 2-doses?22:07 How are variants “game changers” for vaccines and natural infections? → https://is.gd/Y4fUqx | 22:03 |
| rpifan | de-facto, merkel and the cdu are done | 22:06 |
| rpifan | its the death of them | 22:06 |
| rpifan | what i dont understand | 22:06 |
| rpifan | is why she has to apologize | 22:06 |
| Arsanerit | de-facto: Did UK and ROI close non-essential business & industry? | 22:14 |
| blkshp | yes, 3 months now. | 22:14 |
| Arsanerit | Hmm, costly. | 22:15 |
| blkshp | And it wasn't for the first time. | 22:15 |
| Arsanerit | Or maybe less costly because the UK doesn't have much industry to begin with? | 22:15 |
| blkshp | WE MADE YOU ALL WHAT YOU ARE TODAY xD | 22:15 |
| Arsanerit | i.o.w. UK industry has been permanently closed since the Thatcher days? | 22:15 |
| Arsanerit | For once it's an advantage the economy is all FIRE? | 22:15 |
| de-facto | there is a reason why UK does so well right now in terms of the pandemic | 22:16 |
| blkshp | Cause we're awesome and selfish? | 22:16 |
| de-facto | i would rather think because UK does what needs to be done now | 22:17 |
| Arsanerit | In Germany industry claims that closing manufacturing and such would permanently do huge damage to exports. | 22:17 |
| de-facto | they listen to their epidemiologists and modelers | 22:17 |
| de-facto | well wait for it, when industry has to close production facilities because incidence explodes | 22:18 |
| de-facto | then they will wish they had supported those that tried to prevent that | 22:18 |
| de-facto | its absolutely ridiculous we still dont have proper working place hygiene rules in Germany | 22:19 |
| de-facto | everyone just does whatever they like, almost anarchy | 22:19 |
| de-facto | why do we still have big shared office places where people wear no masks when sitting at their desks? | 22:20 |
| Arsanerit | I didn't know any European country had taken that step recently. | 22:21 |
| de-facto | why do we have such office spaces at all? | 22:21 |
| de-facto | well look at EU countries incidence... yes it looks like all of them dont regulate the most important things to prevent transmission | 22:21 |
| Arsanerit | How is it in the Republic of Ireland? | 22:22 |
| Arsanerit | de-facto: Do you have a good source to find out the actual restrictions such as "closing all industry" by country? | 22:23 |
| de-facto | unfortunately not really | 22:24 |
| de-facto | but i havent really searched so maybe there is such a resource | 22:24 |
| de-facto | if you find a good one, i would be interested in that too | 22:24 |
| Arsanerit | For the UK, https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/further-businesses-and-premises-to-close/closing-certain-businesses-and-venues-in-england seems to cover mostly retail, hospitality, accommodation, personal care, tourism such as are also closed in Germany (at least partly). I don't see much there about other types of industry such as offices, factories, construction, etc. | 22:28 |
| de-facto | i think LjL did have some sites that showed containment measures over time per country | 22:28 |
| Arsanerit | Can the "Tübingen model" be an alternative/complement to a properly hard lockdown? | 22:28 |
| rpifan | is that that city is now almost entirely open? | 22:28 |
| Arsanerit | That's one of the cities where people with a negative antigen test get a day pass to enter establishments that would otherwise be closed. | 22:29 |
| rpifan | oh thats interesting | 22:29 |
| rpifan | sounds fun | 22:29 |
| rpifan | idk if it would work in berlin tho | 22:29 |
| Arsanerit | Merkel (or was it Spahn?) said any city could implement it. | 22:30 |
| rpifan | spahn is a dummie | 22:30 |
| Arsanerit | Is he? | 22:30 |
| rpifan | after all that has hapepend | 22:31 |
| de-facto | .title https://depositonce.tu-berlin.de/handle/11303/12592.2 | 22:31 |
| rpifan | yea | 22:31 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From depositonce.tu-berlin.de: DepositOnce: Covid-19 contagion via aerosol particles – comparative evaluation of indoor environments with respect to situational R-value | 22:31 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From depositonce.tu-berlin.de: DepositOnce: Covid-19 contagion via aerosol particles – comparative evaluation of indoor environments with respect to situational R-value | 22:31 |
| de-facto | Arsanerit, well now the B.1.1.7 got ~150% more reproduction, hence containment would have to account for that in being 150% as efficient to achieve results similar to the previous less contagious variant D614G | 22:32 |
| Arsanerit | I agree that offices and factories should close except for people with a negative rapid antigen test for the day. | 22:32 |
| Arsanerit | de-facto: I'm aware, and they should have done that months ago, but is it working in Tübingen? | 22:32 |
| de-facto | of course testing can make a difference, but it would have to be enforces absolutely strictly, e.g. each day and deny entry without prior negative test result | 22:33 |
| de-facto | just one super spreader (e.g. test denier) can infect tens of people in one day in the office for example | 22:33 |
| Arsanerit | And did the UK and ROI really close down all offices, factories, construction sites and such? When I search for that on Google I get results from March 2020 only. | 22:34 |
| rpifan | well in germany | 22:34 |
| rpifan | they will never close offices | 22:34 |
| rpifan | they are addicted to work | 22:34 |
| rpifan | the dummies will protest | 22:34 |
| rpifan | even if the govt gives them free money | 22:34 |
| rpifan | there are ppl who dont like being on ALG I and i dont get it | 22:34 |
| Arsanerit | I think they're right to protest a fake lockdown that is strong enough to hurt business but not strong enough to break the pandemic. | 22:34 |
| Arsanerit | It would seem to be the worst of both worlds. | 22:35 |
| Arsanerit | ALG I only lasts a year in Germany. | 22:35 |
| Arsanerit | My wife is on ALG I. Normally the Arbeitsamt is supposed to pester the unemoplyed all the time about what they are doing, but they've only phoned her once in 5 months. | 22:36 |
| de-facto | look what they have done with easter lockdown, they violently attacked it instead of welcoming it and extending it for one or two weeks | 22:36 |
| rpifan | Arsanerit, yea they are overworked now in the ALG office | 22:36 |
| rpifan | still one year of ALG is a lot | 22:36 |
| Arsanerit | Of course they attacked it, a 1–5 day lockdown is useless. | 22:36 |
| rpifan | even better im on 100 percent Kurzarbeit | 22:36 |
| de-facto | now pretty much nothing is left in terms of lockdown to contain B.1.1.7, hence incidence will go up now, i am expecting to see R~1.4 soon | 22:36 |
| rpifan | and then ill go into ALG I | 22:36 |
| rpifan | almost 2 years of work free living | 22:36 |
| rpifan | i dont seee why anyone would complain | 22:37 |
| rpifan | except the Germans | 22:37 |
| rpifan | they jsut wanna keep working | 22:37 |
| Arsanerit | After ALG I comes ALG II, which is not a lot of money. | 22:37 |
| rpifan | i heard ppl have been getting fat from not working, i on the other hand have lost almost 15kgs due to the lockdown | 22:37 |
| Arsanerit | And ALG II is means tested I think, so many people just get nothing. | 22:37 |
| rpifan | idk my roommate is on ALG II | 22:37 |
| Arsanerit | There hasn't been any lockdown in Germany afaik. | 22:37 |
| rpifan | and i dont think its been tested | 22:37 |
| Arsanerit | Except partly at night only. | 22:38 |
| rpifan | in bayern | 22:38 |
| blkshp | Feel free to not have the vaccine more for us :P | 22:38 |
| Arsanerit | The proposal to close the shorts on Easter Thursday & Saturday was frankly stupid as it would lead to super busy shops on Wednesday and the following Tuesday. | 22:38 |
| de-facto | this is the most critical phase of the pandemic, the mutants are spreading when traveling is allowed and incidence tolerated to explore with accelerating exponential growth. later we will have less incidence and more vaccinated, so hopefully much less problems with breeding mutants etc | 22:38 |
| rpifan | Arsanerit, yea when i read it in the german original i thought it was just my language failing me | 22:38 |
| rpifan | cause what it said didnt make any sense | 22:38 |
| de-facto | but right now they mess up everything with their stupid compromises and tolerance of opposition to containment | 22:39 |
| de-facto | hence we dont deserve anything but the worst outcome, because right now, we are asking for it. | 22:39 |
| Arsanerit | rpifan: I'd blame a 15 hour telecon lasting until deep in the night for brain fog on side of senior politicians, maybe agreeing to silly stuff just because they wanted to go to bed...? | 22:39 |
| Arsanerit | de-facto: What compromise? afaik the only thing they decided was reversed? | 22:39 |
| rpifan | yea maybe | 22:39 |
| Arsanerit | Meaning they decided nothing at all? | 22:40 |
| rpifan | idk | 22:40 |
| rpifan | but im just tired of the govt fucking up | 22:40 |
| rpifan | ppl dont really realize it | 22:40 |
| rpifan | but DE ahs fucked up since day one | 22:40 |
| rpifan | they only got lucky on the first wave | 22:40 |
| rpifan | tahts it | 22:40 |
| Arsanerit | DE had the advantage of having a bit more hospital capacity than others. | 22:40 |
| Arsanerit | Why is Germany testing so little? | 22:41 |
| de-facto | all compromises that weaken necessary containment (e.g. the agreed upon emergency break) with economy lobbyist groups proving their stupidity with thinking everything will magically just be better when we have less containment hence more pathogen spread | 22:42 |
| rpifan | drohsten said to lock down 2 additional weeks last year | 22:42 |
| rpifan | and no one listened to him | 22:42 |
| de-facto | every single little compromise, without any exception, works in *favor* of pathogen spread | 22:42 |
| Arsanerit | https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/is_full/public/images/2021w11_COVID19_EU_EEA_National_Testing_Rate.png | 22:42 |
| de-facto | and everything that works in favor of pathogen spread works against economy, very very efficiently as we know by observing what happened last year | 22:43 |
| Arsanerit | Are Germany's cases really lower than its neighbours, or does it just seem that way because they're testing less? | 22:43 |
| rpifan | idk | 22:44 |
| de-facto | thats hard to estimate because as you said it depends on testing and targeting | 22:44 |
| rpifan | i honestly feel like spain is doing better now | 22:44 |
| de-facto | maybe hospitalizations and fatalities can give a more clear pic? | 22:44 |
| de-facto | per capita ofc | 22:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Pfizer begins COVID vaccine trial in young children: Pfizer said Thursday it had begun clinical trials for its COVID vaccine in children under the age of eleven, an early sign of the next stage of the global immunization campaign. → https://is.gd/mtyk18 | 22:45 |
| Arsanerit | Austria has a test positivity rate of ~1%, Denmark 0.3%, Germany 6.6%. | 22:45 |
| Arsanerit | Or maybe other countries include rapid antigen tests in their test rates, which Germany doesn't? | 22:46 |
| de-facto | we need to do much much more testing and have bulletproof hygiene concepts in companies etc | 22:46 |
| Arsanerit | Of course if you do a million rapid antigen tests per day, then do a PCR test only on the ones who have positive rapid antigen tests, then the positive test rate measured on PCR tests only will go very high. | 22:46 |
| de-facto | but that requires absolutely zero-tolerance, if someone does not participate in that, the direct consequence should be that loosing the job immediately should be mandatory | 22:47 |
| de-facto | and loosing all privileges such as social care etc | 22:47 |
| Arsanerit | Would that hold in court? | 22:47 |
| de-facto | of course not | 22:47 |
| rpifan | the problem is you can force ppl | 22:47 |
| rpifan | especially not in Germany | 22:47 |
| rpifan | with the nazi past | 22:48 |
| rpifan | and the DDR past | 22:48 |
| rpifan | spain and france have some more leeway | 22:48 |
| rpifan | but Germany | 22:48 |
| rpifan | no way | 22:48 |
| de-facto | we need for force people becasue most seem to be just too stupid and stubborn | 22:48 |
| rpifan | you cant | 22:48 |
| de-facto | yeah in Germany we cant even have two additional public holidays, because lawyers directly attack that | 22:49 |
| de-facto | basically the government is unable to act right now | 22:49 |
| de-facto | having an incapacitated government in a crisis of national, well international magnitude is the worst thing imaginable | 22:50 |
| rpifan | why cant we have more holidays? | 22:50 |
| de-facto | but hey, we have happy little covidiots and querdenkers demonstrating, great. | 22:52 |
| Arsanerit | Courts will measure the proportionality of a measure, effect vs. cost, and two additional holidays have no positive effect at all (may even be counterproductive) so that would be reasonable to shut down. | 22:53 |
| de-facto | yeah except courts have no clue about epidemiology | 22:53 |
| Arsanerit | German constitution was designed after WW II to prevent the central government from being too powerful. It is not suitable for a crisis situation like today. | 22:53 |
| de-facto | nor about incubation times | 22:53 |
| rpifan | yea | 22:54 |
| de-facto | they require tests before entering flights | 22:54 |
| de-facto | LOL | 22:54 |
| rpifan | well it was designed by the americans | 22:54 |
| Arsanerit | de-facto: maybe they don't, but the proposed easter lockdown isn't effective | 22:54 |
| rpifan | but what is the answer then de-facto | 22:54 |
| de-facto | so courts see having a test before flight and mandatory quarantine after having arrived as epidemiological equivalent? thence they require that quarantine must be exchanged for one stupid little quicktest before (or after) the flight? | 22:55 |
| rpifan | i think its fine and a good idea to get before flgiht testing | 22:55 |
| de-facto | to me that demonstrates that courts can NOT be trusted in such questions at all | 22:55 |
| Arsanerit | Are rapid antigen tests stupid? | 22:55 |
| Arsanerit | Doesn't mandatory quarantine after arrival still apply? | 22:56 |
| de-facto | courts should not be able to rule such decisions, this opportunity should be taken from them | 22:56 |
| de-facto | Arsanerit, good point with the design of constitution | 22:56 |
| Arsanerit | The governments of most/all Länder have no clue about epidemiology either. I suspect Merkel understands it well enough, but she can't force her policy to the Länder. | 22:56 |
| de-facto | of course antigen tests are better than no test, but since their sensitivity is too low to guarantee absence of infection they can NOT replace or shorten quarantine time | 22:57 |
| de-facto | look at how China, or NZ does that, they requite quarantine and it works for them | 22:58 |
| de-facto | look at what we do here, nothing works at all | 22:58 |
| rpifan | but we cant do that | 22:58 |
| rpifan | look at Spain | 22:58 |
| rpifan | it works for them | 22:58 |
| rpifan | we should copy that model | 22:58 |
| Arsanerit | de-facto: But the quarantine time still applies, doesn't it? | 22:58 |
| Arsanerit | What works for Spain? | 22:58 |
| de-facto | so such lovely courts and lawyers should not be able to interfere with necessary containment, government should be able to act in favor of preventing damage to the people and economy | 22:59 |
| rpifan | they are doing the curfews | 22:59 |
| rpifan | but with most stores adn stuff open | 22:59 |
| de-facto | but obviously the opposite is that case | 22:59 |
| Arsanerit | I don't think "courts should not be able to interfere" works under rule of law. | 23:00 |
| de-facto | Arsanerit, i dont think quarantine applies, because tourism lobbyist fear that e.g. travelers would not fly to Mallorce if it means 14 days quarantine on return | 23:00 |
| Arsanerit | de-facto: But for Mallorca it didn't apply before the new testing rule either, it only applied to RKI risk areas. | 23:00 |
| Arsanerit | The new testing rule is in addition of nothing at all, afaik it doesn't replace any quarantine. | 23:01 |
| de-facto | well result being, one can not go for holidays *in* Germany, but one can do big Corona-Party with other international tourists in Mallorca and get the newest updates for the Mutants, and antigen tests are not enough to detect all of the infections on a plane | 23:01 |
| rpifan | its a mess | 23:01 |
| rpifan | well maybe we should force ppl to only take trains | 23:01 |
| blkshp | heh, i've jsut been reminded of when "covid" was a typo | 23:01 |
| rpifan | oh hi blkshp | 23:02 |
| rpifan | how r u | 23:02 |
| Arsanerit | de-facto: yes, I think many agree that this ist upid. | 23:02 |
| Arsanerit | blkshp: Why a typo? | 23:02 |
| rpifan | you mean covfefe | 23:02 |
| Arsanerit | Was covfefe a typo for covid? | 23:03 |
| blkshp | No, i remember sending out a report in March last year where it had been changed to "Corvid" without me knowing about it | 23:03 |
| de-facto | Arsanerit, problem being those that dont agree will now fly to Mallorca and re-import the Mutants, just watch for them being seeded now during eastern | 23:03 |
| de-facto | if they are stupid or reckless enough to do that, they definitely will also behave like that here in Germany, hence spread those Mutants efficiently | 23:04 |
| Arsanerit | de-facto: I think we agree on that. | 23:04 |
| de-facto | such things just should not be allowed | 23:04 |
| Arsanerit | I'm not sure why they didn't ban outgoing tourism completely, like the UK has. It's not like a 95% drop or a 100% drop in outgoing tourism makes much of a difference for the tourism industry. | 23:04 |
| de-facto | how did B.1.1.7 come to Germany? where did B.1.351 come from? Why do we have even P.1 already here? | 23:05 |
| de-facto | what did we learn from that? | 23:05 |
| de-facto | and where are the consequences from that? | 23:05 |
| Arsanerit | Or, to quote Monty Python Flying Circus: „Well I, I think that, er, nobody who has gone abroad should be allowed back in the country“ | 23:05 |
| rpifan | de-facto, mutations not mutants | 23:07 |
| rpifan | mutants are the X Men | 23:07 |
| LjL | ... | 23:07 |
| LjL | mutants are called that way because they have mutations | 23:07 |
| LjL | mutant is a perfectly correct technical term | 23:08 |
| LjL | the fact it was borrowed for fictional characters doesn't take away from that | 23:08 |
| rpifan | well but we normally says mutations | 23:08 |
| LjL | no | 23:08 |
| LjL | they are different thing | 23:08 |
| LjL | a mutant is an organism exhibiting mutations | 23:08 |
| rpifan | an X Man | 23:08 |
| Arsanerit | Is a virus an organism? | 23:09 |
| de-facto | SARS-CoV-VoC B.1.1.7 got many point mutations in comparison with the D614G variant | 23:09 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, arguably not perhaps, but i don't think that's a good reason to bar it from use of the word mutants to express variants with mutations | 23:10 |
| LjL | "Scientific opinions differ on whether viruses are a form of life or organic structures that interact with living organisms.[11] They have been described as "organisms at the edge of life",[10]" | 23:10 |
| Arsanerit | Why do the variants have so many names? B.1.1.7, 20I/501Y.V1, VOC-20DEC-01... | 23:10 |
| de-facto | the Variants of Concern have many mutations combined that have synergistic effects, one enabling the advantageous property of another etc | 23:11 |
| LjL | because there are different naming systems based on different features | 23:11 |
| LjL | B.1.1.7 is a Pango lineage | 23:11 |
| LjL | 501Y.V1 and such refer to the particular location that mutated in the way that is considered most significant | 23:11 |
| LjL | the ones with the date, well, obviously they are about when they were identified, and VOC or VOI stand for variant of concerns and variant of interest | 23:12 |
| Arsanerit | Ok. | 23:12 |
| LjL | all these naming systems have reasonable enough reasons to exist | 23:12 |
| Arsanerit | The pango naming system is relatively new? | 23:12 |
| LjL | probably, i'm not sure | 23:12 |
| de-facto | .title https://covariants.org/ | 23:13 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From covariants.org: CoVariants | 23:13 |
| rpifan | well | 23:13 |
| rpifan | even HIV has many variants | 23:13 |
| rpifan | you usually get a special test before you start medication | 23:13 |
| de-facto | .title https://outbreak.info/ | 23:13 |
| rpifan | that shsows you which variant you are infected with | 23:13 |
| Arsanerit | With the name PANGOLIN it would seem to be newer than the virus, but I'd have thought that systematic naming systems should have existed as long as virology has. | 23:13 |
| rpifan | to plan what meds you can take | 23:13 |
| LjL | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylogenetic_Assignment_of_Named_Global_Outbreak_Lineages | 23:13 |
| de-facto | title https://cov-lineages.org/ | 23:13 |
| de-facto | .title https://cov-lineages.org/ | 23:13 |
| LjL | it is recent | 23:13 |
| Elementoshi[m] | for a moment i thought that said LineageOS | 23:13 |
| rpifan | lol | 23:14 |
| de-facto | .title https://nextstrain.org/ncov/global | 23:14 |
| de-facto | etc bb | 23:14 |
| Elementoshi[m] | i use LineageOS btw | 23:14 |
| de-facto | me too | 23:14 |
| Arsanerit | Do all variants get Pango names or only the variants of concern? | 23:14 |
| Elementoshi[m] | ah cool | 23:14 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From outbreak.info: outbreak.info | 23:14 |
| Elementoshi[m] | i wish i had bought a phone for GrapheneOS instead though | 23:14 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, those systems are probably ad-hoc for the virus. influenza have names like H5N1 for the strains, but aside from influenza, i guess with many viruses we don't often follow their "lineage" at the level of detail we're doing with SARS-COV-2 | 23:14 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, not just the ones of concern, but at the same time i don't think *all* variants can get named (variants are potentially... very many), so while i'm not sure about the details i guess they've tried to devise a system that lets you see at a glance what the lineage of a given variant is (i.e. is it a sub-variant of a previous variant) while covering all the ones that "matter" in a very wide sense | 23:16 |
| Arsanerit | Ok. | 23:17 |
| Elementoshi[m] | Why is COVID-19's lineage important? | 23:17 |
| LjL | because we need to follow mutations and track variants because they may have very real effects on how the disease behaves on us | 23:17 |
| LjL | lineage B.1.351 for instance mostly escapes vaccines | 23:18 |
| LjL | and lineage B.1.1.7 is both more contagious and more severe | 23:18 |
| Elementoshi[m] | Oh cool | 23:18 |
| LjL | i guess you could call it cool, from a purely scientific viewpoint ;( | 23:18 |
| Elementoshi[m] | Heaven forbid those lineages combine somehow | 23:19 |
| * Elementoshi[m] shivers | 23:19 | |
| de-facto | they do | 23:19 |
| LjL | they do all the time yeah | 23:19 |
| Elementoshi[m] | Yes, cool as in science, not cool for sick people :/ | 23:19 |
| LjL | and i think B.1.1.7 has already developed (independently?) the E484K mutation that is the main contributor to making B.1.351 so nasty | 23:19 |
| de-facto | yes and P.1 in Brazil | 23:20 |
| LjL | i don't know if it developed it in parallel, or they intermingled | 23:20 |
| Elementoshi[m] | It's cool that we're figuring stuff like that about covid and trying to figure out what to do about it though | 23:20 |
| LjL | Elementoshi[m], yeah it would be even nicer if we actually did it | 23:20 |
| rpifan | so what is your plan de-facto | 23:20 |
| Arsanerit | How is the USA bringing cases down? Lockdowns, vaccines, rapid antigen tests? | 23:20 |
| de-facto | but how to know if it really was convergent evolution leading independently to the evasive E484K mutation or if it originated from a recombinaiton event? | 23:21 |
| LjL | de-facto, i suppose a recombination event would show more "traces" of the other variant than just E484K alone | 23:21 |
| rpifan | most just massive vaccines | 23:21 |
| Arsanerit | My father was given a vaccination appointment (two) today. | 23:21 |
| de-facto | like from a traveler importing it from overseas and them both viruses recombining their advantageous mutations in a cell | 23:21 |
| de-facto | hehe i think there might have been lost a virologist on our LjL after all :) | 23:22 |
| de-facto | makes sense :D | 23:22 |
| LjL | :P | 23:22 |
| LjL | i'm too scared of this stuff to work on it though | 23:22 |
| LjL | obsession is different from genuine interest | 23:23 |
| Arsanerit | How do people keep track of the covid-19 scientific literature with so many papers published, and what % of papers are useless crap? | 23:23 |
| LjL | they don't :P | 23:23 |
| LjL | but | 23:23 |
| LjL | something i recently stumbled upon | 23:23 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, http://covidlit.spectrumhealth.org/#about | 23:23 |
| Elementoshi[m] | <LjL "copenhagen_bram, yeah it would b"> Maybe someday we'll be able to fight viruses by engineering bacteriophages that are just as capable of being contagious and evolving | 23:24 |
| LjL | this takes the papers indexed by LitCovid, which are already just a fraction of all the scientific research on it (i think they only list published papers, not preprints) and uses a bunch of random scientists to "score" those papers for potential interest | 23:24 |
| Elementoshi[m] | > <@freenode_LjL:matrix.org> copenhagen_bram, yeah it would be even nicer if we actually did it | 23:24 |
| Elementoshi[m] | * Maybe someday we'll be able to fight viruses by engineering bacteriophages that are also capable of mutating | 23:24 |
| LjL | Elementoshi[m], wouldn't you be fighting bacteria that way? | 23:25 |
| de-facto | Elementoshi[m], there is bacteriophage therapy in combination with antibiotics against multi-resistant bacteria strains | 23:26 |
| LjL | cool | 23:27 |
| LjL | antibiotic resistance is scary | 23:27 |
| LjL | especially after i saw a map of Europe showing that Italy and Greece are by far the worst at it | 23:27 |
| LjL | like, BY FAR | 23:27 |
| LjL | (or was it Italy and Spain?) | 23:27 |
| Elementoshi[m] | <de-facto "copenhagen_bram, there is bacter"> Oh you're right I got it backwards | 23:27 |
| Arsanerit | LjL: thanks | 23:28 |
| Elementoshi[m] | So is there a bacteria that eats viruses or something? | 23:28 |
| Elementoshi[m] | Would that be a virophage? | 23:28 |
| de-facto | it puts evolutionary pressure onto that strain from both sides, so the strain being in the antibiotic resistance maximum is vulnerable to the infection by the bacteriophage and the one resistant to the phage is vulnerable to the antibiotic IF both of those are targeting the same biological mechanism on the bacterium (e.g. phage infection and antibiotic entry etc) | 23:28 |
| Arsanerit | I suppose there is a good reason why we can't design a symptomless version of coronavirus that transmits and triggers an immune response. | 23:29 |
| Arsanerit | To speed up the vaccinations so to say. | 23:29 |
| LjL | de-facto, https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/portal/files/media/en/publications/Documents/antibiotic-resistance-in-EU-summary.pdf look at the lovely maps, and thank us for being so damned good at breeding damned "good" bacteria | 23:29 |
| de-facto | Russia was experimenting with that for quite some time and now it became more popular again because of so many antibiotic resistant bacteria | 23:29 |
| Arsanerit | I mean, the virus is mutating and becoming worse, can't we make mutation that is mostly harmless but helps achieve herd immunity? | 23:30 |
| Arsanerit | Probably not of people would be doing it. | 23:30 |
| de-facto | Arsanerit, yes i am advertising that idea for months already | 23:30 |
| Elementoshi[m] | <Arsanerit "I suppose there is a good reason"> For one reason, I Think immune responses are a major part of the symptoms. But maybe a version of corona that doesn't murder cells and cause lung damage, or something? | 23:30 |
| de-facto | and there are some concepts that are really cool | 23:30 |
| de-facto | each amino acid can be encoded in different ways (codons) and some are more optimized than others for certain scenarios | 23:31 |
| Arsanerit | de-facto: Ok, but I'm sure lot's of smart people who know a lot more about this than you and me think about it too, and it doesn't seem to be widely applied at the moment :) | 23:31 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, i've proposed that before... i've been yelled at because that can be incredibly dangerous. but at the same time, i kinda feel that the mutation party in Brazil and other places is being incredibly dangerous itself, so... | 23:31 |
| de-facto | it means there are different ways to express the same protein in a RNA or DNA sequence | 23:31 |
| Arsanerit | I wonder how much those UK scientists wanting to inject people with SARS-CoV-2 are paying. | 23:33 |
| de-facto | for example the vaccines encoding the s-protein as antigen of SARS-CoV-2 have those sequences codon-optimized, hence they get more often and faster translated in human cells and the RNA can sneak under the radar of the immune system | 23:33 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, the thing is you'd need to engineer a version of the virus that is much more transmissible than current versions, because for it to work, you need it to prevail over the other variants. it's not too easy to make it very infectious but at the same time not serious at all (to the virus, that may be the best situation, but at the same time, reproducing a lot in a host helps it be more infectious but also makes it disrupt the host more) | 23:33 |
| LjL | so it's both tricky and dangerous | 23:33 |
| Arsanerit | LjL: I see. | 23:33 |
| LjL | but i'm not sure i'd rule it out as a strategy "if done carefully" | 23:33 |
| de-facto | but alto the opposite is possible: codon-DEOPTIMIZATION hence making translation of RNA *less* efficient | 23:33 |
| de-facto | so why not encoding the full SARS-CoV-2 in a suboptimal way, with de-optimnized codons in order to make its translation much slower and less efficient in cells? | 23:34 |
| LjL | Elementoshi[m], but the immune response doesn't *need* to be detrimental to the point of endangering the host. vaccines, so far, haven't been shown to produce such a devastating response. so i guess potentially you could engineer a virus that only generates enough immune response to give you immunity, but without the autoimmune madness | 23:34 |
| de-facto | it still would result in the same virion, but with a different (de-optimized) RNA sequence inside | 23:34 |
| de-facto | that would be attenuated live SARS-CoV-2, so maybe one could spray that into the nose or such for provoking an immune response | 23:35 |
| LjL | de-facto, but then how do you also make it more infectious? if it's less infectious than other variants, it'll die out | 23:35 |
| LjL | de-facto, well if you don't want to make it infectious, but simply an attenuated vaccine, i bet there are safer ways to make sure it's actually attenuated | 23:36 |
| de-facto | but because it replicates so slow, the immune system would have a very good chance to kill it off in time and at the same time aquire immunity against the wild (non-de-optimized) type too | 23:36 |
| de-facto | LjL, yes but gain of function research is VERY dangerous imho: what if there is a recombination of the super-transmissible (but harmless) variant and the wild type (less transmissible) but more dangerous variant? | 23:37 |
| LjL | yes, i understand it's dangerous | 23:37 |
| LjL | but we're having very dangerous recombination of already quite dangerous variants already | 23:37 |
| LjL | how much worse can we make it? | 23:37 |
| LjL | (famous last words) | 23:37 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.biospace.com/article/meissa-s-nasal-covid-19-vaccine-uses-codon-deoptimization-for-stronger-responses-/ | 23:38 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.biospace.com: Meissa’s Nasal COVID-19 Vaccine Uses Codon Deoptimization for Stronger Responses | BioSpace | 23:38 |
| Arsanerit | We could mix HIV, SARS-CoV-2, and ebola. | 23:39 |
| de-facto | LjL, gain of function research with a virus that does recombination is unethical imho | 23:39 |
| de-facto | .title https://codagenix.com/ | 23:40 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From codagenix.com: Codagenix Home | 23:40 |
| LjL | de-facto, i'm pretty sure history will eventually tell us that gain of function research is what gave us SARS-COV-2 to begin with | 23:40 |
| LjL | but meanwhile, we have it | 23:40 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.indimmune.com/ | 23:40 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.indimmune.com: Indian Immunologicals Ltd (IIL) | Leading Animal & Human Vaccine Manufacturer - IIL | 23:40 |
| Elementoshi[m] | <Arsanerit "We could mix HIV, SARS-CoV-2, an"> Covibolaids? | 23:41 |
| LjL | i'm not entirely sure why attenuated and inactivated vaccines are only being pursued as very secondary strategies for SARS-COV-2, and the big companies immediately went ahead and bet on mRNA and similar | 23:41 |
| LjL | i'm not saying there wasn't a good reason, but even now, i don't really know what that reason is | 23:42 |
| LjL | inactivated vaccines are very common and they... tend to work, i guess? | 23:42 |
| de-facto | LjL, at least its astonishing that SARS-CoV-2 did replicate so well in human cells already, because after a zoonotic transmission event one would expect quite a number of mutations being selected in the evolution it optimizes for the different circumstances in the new host (human) | 23:42 |
| LjL | de-facto, yeah, and instead, it almost didn't change for a year. then it started changing a lot. ugh. | 23:43 |
| LjL | de-facto, to me no matter what the WHO says it's almost incredible to propose it *didn't* come out of a lab, but whatever | 23:43 |
| de-facto | well yea because now it replicates under immunologic pressure in human for the first time | 23:43 |
| de-facto | so where (and when) did it optimize for humans so well that it did not many mutations in the first few months | 23:44 |
| LjL | de-facto, i'm confused though. in Manaus there may have been immunologic pressure. but the variants started arising before there seemed to be so much pressure...? if anything, when antibody surveys showed high prevalence, it's the surveys that mostly seemed to be wrong (done with kits that gave high false positive rates) | 23:44 |
| de-facto | afaik D614G was the biggest change since Wuhan outbreak | 23:44 |
| LjL | anyway yeah, it was very well adapted to spread in humans to begin with | 23:44 |
| LjL | and that's "suspicious" to say the least | 23:45 |
| de-facto | thats what i mean | 23:45 |
| LjL | involve pangolins if you want | 23:45 |
| LjL | but labs can be pangolins sometimes | 23:45 |
| de-facto | maybe it went under the radar until it was optimized well enough in humans that it could cause problems that woudl get attention | 23:45 |
| LjL | maybe | 23:45 |
| LjL | as i liked to say a lot, there are signs that it was around in Italy some months before awareness | 23:45 |
| de-facto | but then why does the phylogenetic tree look like it had a single origin (root) | 23:45 |
| LjL | but the sequence seemed to mostly resemble the Wuhan one (the parts we know, anyway) | 23:46 |
| LjL | indeed | 23:46 |
| de-facto | or at least not much diversity before (hence very few cases) | 23:46 |
| Arsanerit | It should not be surprising that politicians are unwilling to follow scientific advise and do what it takes. We've seen that in the climate crisis for decades. | 23:46 |
| LjL | well what we're saying now is basically that scientists may have created the issue :P | 23:47 |
| de-facto | Arsanerit, and for the climate crisis we probably dont have a technical solution such as developent of vaccines | 23:47 |
| de-facto | (well i am not saying scientists created it in the lab, i am just saying what puzzles me about the evolution of it) | 23:47 |
| LjL | okay, i am saying it then | 23:48 |
| LjL | i'm not saying they did it to create a pandemic, of course | 23:48 |
| de-facto | but of course i cant exclude that either | 23:48 |
| LjL | but we know that lab *was* working on bat coronaviruses, it's likely it *was* working on gain of function, and incidents happen | 23:48 |
| LjL | to me there's a lot of very strong circumstantial evidence | 23:48 |
| de-facto | normally one would expect that if it was created artificially that there would be "code chunks" of differences to its ancestors | 23:49 |
| LjL | i don't think it was created artificially, i imagine it was artificially made to evolve in cell cultures, or live animals, or stuff | 23:49 |
| de-facto | like when comparing the genetic differences and one would see a sharp edge in those differences for e specific sequence one would expect that sequence to be artificially inserted then | 23:50 |
| LjL | we don't see the intermediate steps because they happened in a lab, but that doesn't have to mean artificial cut-and-paste of genes | 23:50 |
| de-facto | but for SARS-CoV-2 it looks like there are many mutations, randomly distributed over the whole genome, hence probably accumulated over long time and somewhat evenly distributed (or at least in some natural pattern) | 23:51 |
| LjL | i also tend to point out, although i've had people tell me i'm really veering towards the conspirational there, that it's not in most virologists' best interest to cry out loud "IT CAME FROM A LAB!", because if that were established, there would be some serious consideration over the need to close such labs. and virologists kinda work in them. | 23:51 |
| LjL | de-facto, a "natural pattern" may happen artificially if you simply set the conditions for natural evolution to happen faster in your cell/animal cultures | 23:52 |
| de-facto | but what if such mutations were occurring randomly (maybe with raised rate to safe time) but their selection was due to "gain of function" in an optimal environment aiming for replication in human cells? | 23:52 |
| LjL | that's what i'm saying | 23:52 |
| de-facto | basically bruteforcing, trial an error to settle in a local optimum | 23:52 |
| LjL | you can use human-like cell cultures | 23:53 |
| de-facto | if it was allowed to do that (somehow, somewhere), prior to entering human body, why would one expect it to go on with drifting mutations, if it already is more or less in the extremum of optimization for those (immunoligocal naive) human hosts? | 23:54 |
| de-facto | only if the environment where it replicates changes (e.g. different species, or different immune status due to recovery or vaccinations) one would expect the selection pressure "direction" to give rise to other types of mutations | 23:55 |
| de-facto | even if those occur randomly at constant rate, now with shift in selection pressure other mutations would be selected to be advantageous, hence from outside perspective (only those would be visible) it would look like mutation rate changes (but in reality selection pressure shifted) | 23:56 |
| de-facto | again not saying that was the case or that it was made in a lab | 23:59 |
| Arsanerit | goodnight | 23:59 |
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