| Brainstorm | New from Shane Crotty: @profshanecrotty: Long term vaccine side effects: @DrPaulOffit = In the history of vaccines, “There are no long-term effects where you find that one year, two years, later your child or you develop some problem that wasn’t picked up initially. It has never happened.”https://bit.ly/3yR8zTs → https://is.gd/x5S4sv | 00:08 |
|---|---|---|
| Birosso | HELLO! | 01:59 |
| LjL | Birosso, HI! | 02:43 |
| aradesh | the UK cases look like they're going up again :< | 09:51 |
| dTal | Yep. Sharply. | 10:39 |
| dTal | Hello, Indiant variant - sorry, "variant delta" | 10:40 |
| mrdata- | so oxford vaccine isnt protecting from that variant so well? | 10:48 |
| dTal | not after one dose, no | 10:52 |
| dTal | better after two, but still not quite as effective | 10:52 |
| indoanon[m] | https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/20793561/leopold-nih-foia-anthony-fauci-emails.pdf | 11:13 |
| pwr22 | dTal: could you link to the data on that? | 12:16 |
| dTal | I can't remember where I read it, it's pretty widely reported | 12:19 |
| dTal | I can google it if you'd like | 12:19 |
| dTal | it's something like 30% after one dose and 65-75% after two | 12:20 |
| dTal | hmm but now I'm seeing that figure for pfizer too so maybe it's not specific to AZ | 12:21 |
| dTal | https://pharmaceutical-journal.com/article/feature/everything-you-need-to-know-about-covid-19-vaccines | 12:21 |
| dTal | search on the page for B.1.617 | 12:22 |
| pwr22 | Ah ok, that's what I thought (i.e. we don't have good data on all the vaccines but we do fear that it resists them better) | 12:22 |
| pwr22 | Thanks for the link | 12:25 |
| pwr22 | Doesn't look too bad | 12:25 |
| dTal | https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/ | 14:39 |
| dTal | tl;dr - 0 evidence for natural origin, bucketloads of circumstantial evidence for lab leak | 14:54 |
| Juerd | I'll just throw https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-762/ into the discussion | 15:43 |
| pwr22 | The way I see it, we have had several scares with novel human infecting coronaviruses with significant mortality, SARs and MERS, over the last decades | 16:11 |
| pwr22 | So I kind of see that as writing on the wall | 16:11 |
| pwr22 | The one that causes covid-19 is possibly just the straw that broke the camels back | 16:12 |
| Thomond | %cases ireland | 16:22 |
| Brainstorm | DBRunRecoveryError: (-30973, 'BDB0087 DB_RUNRECOVERY: Fatal error, run database recovery -- BDB0060 PANIC: fatal region error detected; run recovery') (file "/usr/lib/python2.7/bsddb/__init__.py", line 270, in <lambda>) | 16:22 |
| de-facto | LjL | 16:30 |
| pwr22 | That doesn't sound good 😧 | 16:32 |
| * de-facto pities Brainstorm | 16:33 | |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: Do as you wish! | 16:33 |
| * de-facto did as he wished | 16:33 | |
| bin | lol | 17:01 |
| bin | fatal region error | 17:01 |
| bin | oof | 17:01 |
| bin | that doesnt sound good for Ireland | 17:01 |
| bin | let's say a prayer for them | 17:01 |
| de-facto | lol | 17:07 |
| ingwer | %cases de | 17:54 |
| Brainstorm | DBRunRecoveryError: (-30973, 'BDB0087 DB_RUNRECOVERY: Fatal error, run database recovery -- BDB0060 PANIC: fatal region error detected; run recovery') (file "/usr/lib/python2.7/bsddb/__init__.py", line 270, in <lambda>) | 17:54 |
| ingwer | %cases germany | 17:54 |
| Brainstorm | DBRunRecoveryError: (-30973, 'BDB0087 DB_RUNRECOVERY: Fatal error, run database recovery -- BDB0060 PANIC: fatal region error detected; run recovery') (file "/usr/lib/python2.7/bsddb/__init__.py", line 270, in <lambda>) | 17:54 |
| de-facto | ingwer, currently broken, i guess will be fixed soon | 17:57 |
| de-facto | in case you dont know yet RKI got its own dashboard for Germany at https://corona.rki.de/ | 17:59 |
| de-facto | Weekly incidence per 100k citizens is around 37 and falling for Germany so thats good news :) | 18:00 |
| pwr22 | Sounds like something in the database it uses is corrupt | 18:02 |
| de-facto | the currently occupied ICU capacity for Germany can be seen at https://www.intensivregister.de/#/aktuelle-lage/zeitreihen | 18:02 |
| de-facto | it also looks like those 2143 ICU beds got a good downwards trend, hopefully it continues like that | 18:03 |
| pwr22 | Gah, its like 26C in my flat right now | 18:04 |
| de-facto | Got mRNA-1273 yesterday noon, expected some fever or such, but nothing so far, only a bit tired and my arm hurts | 18:05 |
| de-facto | well actually only the injection site in the deltroid muscle | 18:06 |
| LjL | de-facto, pwr22: whoops! no that doesn't sound good indeed, but it's probably not tragic. a couple of days ago i spawned a new instance of the bot for OFTC because F-Droid had the bright idea to move there, and initially it was running a bunch of modules it shouldn't have, including COVID, so it must have messed up the database. i'll delete the file and then it will probably work again, except it'll start again giving numbers for all possible countries until it | 18:17 |
| LjL | has settled down a bit | 18:17 |
| LjL | de-facto, may not get any fever, my sister never got any fever with Pfizer... first injection she got nothing, second injection all her muscles were aching for a few hours, but still no fever | 18:18 |
| LjL | %cases Ireland | 18:19 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: In Ireland, there have been 259972 confirmed cases (5.3% of the population) and 4941 deaths (1.9% of cases) as of 7 seconds ago. 4.7 million tests were performed (5.5% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Ireland for time series data. | 18:19 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: what's mRNA-1273? Pfizer? | 18:24 |
| LjL | Moderna | 18:24 |
| pwr22 | Ah ok | 18:24 |
| pwr22 | Why the cryptic name? | 18:24 |
| pwr22 | Why don't we start giving the vaccines greek letters 😛 | 18:25 |
| jacklsw | scientific name | 18:31 |
| LjL | vaccines already have so many names that i try to specify them all in every entry in my github list to facilitate search via %links but just the other day i was thinking i might hardcode a list of "synonyms" (for vaccines, and also variants) in the bot's code | 18:32 |
| bin | yay de-facto glad you got shot :D | 18:35 |
| pwr22 | We are all glad de-facto has been shot 😛 | 18:36 |
| pwr22 | Hopefully he will get shot again soon 😀 | 18:36 |
| bin | but not TOO soon | 18:36 |
| de-facto | thank you :) | 18:41 |
| de-facto | i think maybe 1273 is the RNA sequence length or such | 18:42 |
| de-facto | erm amino acids of course | 18:45 |
| de-facto | trying to eat and live extra healthy, yet silly me i am an insomniac, so still working on optimizing that part | 18:52 |
| * de-facto goes for a small hike enjoying some sun in the evening :) | 18:55 | |
| pwr22 | Enjoy | 18:55 |
| LjL | my sleep-wake rhythm is basically inverted and i'm getting the vaccine in three days so... | 19:03 |
| LjL | <Brainstorm> New from EuroNews: Brussels unveils plans to reform borderless Schengen Area: The European Commission wants to improve the management of the external borders and also strengthen cooperation among Schengen states. #BrusselsBureau → https://is.gd/DgS300 | 20:20 |
| LjL | When it comes to internal measures inside the passport-free space, the Commission recommends the introduction of a EU-wide police cooperation code and an upgrade to the exchange of information on DNA, fingerprints and vehicle registration. | 20:20 |
| LjL | The executive suggests the advance passenger information (API) system, which currently gathers data on passengers that enter the Schengen space, also be used for intra-Schengen flights. | 20:20 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Peru: +115165 deaths (now 184507) since 2 hours ago — Sri Lanka: +738 cases (now 192547), +39 deaths (now 1566) since 2 hours ago — Namibia: +452 cases (now 56264), +11 deaths (now 865) since 2 hours ago — Moldova: +44 cases (now 255285), +6 deaths (now 6120) since 2 hours ago | 20:42 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Maldives: +704 cases (now 65868) since 3 hours ago — Liberia: +9 cases (now 2219) since 3 hours ago — Sierra Leone: +8 cases (now 4156) since 3 hours ago — Israel: +2 cases (now 839517), +2 deaths (now 6415) since 3 hours ago | 21:31 |
| pwr22 | <LjL "my sleep-wake rhythm is basicall"> Mine is pretty sketchy too | 21:32 |
| pwr22 | Hey, Brainstorm is alive again | 21:33 |
| LjL | pwr22, yeah it'll actually be very chatty about case numbers for a while now, since i wiped the databse | 21:45 |
| pwr22 | Ah ok | 21:45 |
| * de-facto congratulates Brainstorm to getting a shiny new and clean database! | 21:48 | |
| * Brainstorm starts to filigree de-facto with some graphic pomp | 21:49 | |
| de-facto | loOL | 21:49 |
| pwr22 | How come it only responds to you on mentions de-facto ? | 21:51 |
| * pwr22 says hello to Brainstorm | 21:51 | |
| Brainstorm | pwr22: Do as you wish! | 21:51 |
| pwr22 | Ah, has to be in a /me? | 21:51 |
| de-facto | :D | 21:53 |
| * pwr22 starts to filigree Brainstorm with some graphic pomp | 21:56 | |
| * Brainstorm starts to gruntle pwr22 with some cognoscible longanimity | 21:56 | |
| pwr22 | I've never been gruntled before that I know of | 21:57 |
| de-facto | LMAO :D | 22:00 |
| * de-facto pets Brainstorm | 22:01 | |
| * Brainstorm starts to exaggerate de-facto with some agog moralization | 22:01 | |
| de-facto | haha Brainstorm | 22:02 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for India: +35999 cases (now 28.3 million), +841 deaths (now 335003) since 3 hours ago | 22:08 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Pennsylvania, United States: +3012 cases (now 1.2 million), +10 deaths (now 27214) since 4 hours ago — Kuwait: +1345 cases (now 311846), +4 deaths (now 1779) since 4 hours ago — Mauritius: +11 cases (now 1418) since 4 hours ago — Curacao: +1 cases (now 12274) since 4 hours ago | 22:33 |
| ReGiStRaS | So is the COVID-19 vaccination really effective in protection us against COVID-19 at all? | 23:02 |
| de-facto | very much so, e.g. look at this paper | 23:03 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2101765 | 23:03 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.nejm.org: BNT162b2 mRNA Covid-19 Vaccine in a Nationwide Mass Vaccination Setting | NEJM | 23:03 |
| qubert49[m] | As effective as anything can be against something that mutates and affects different people in different ways | 23:04 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Eritrea: +28 cases (now 4145) since 4 hours ago — Eswatini: +17 cases (now 18618) since 4 hours ago — Aruba: +13 cases (now 11006) since 4 hours ago — Mali: +10 cases (now 14281) since 4 hours ago | 23:04 |
| de-facto | well yeah antigenic drift is natural with any virus, yet cellular immunity is more broad than humoral immunity, hence probably also effective against variants | 23:04 |
| darsie | ReGiStRaS: Case rates declined a lot in Austria. We had a "lockdown" and vaccines. | 23:04 |
| ReGiStRaS | I don't think so. Look at this Definition of Terms for the word Vaccine: | 23:05 |
| ReGiStRaS | https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm | 23:05 |
| ReGiStRaS | Vaccine: A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease. | 23:05 |
| de-facto | also looking at the numbers for Israel really makes hope | 23:05 |
| LjL | oh lord i'm starting to always know what it means when someone come in with "hints" on what page to look at without specifying what they have in mind | 23:06 |
| ReGiStRaS | immunity it says. But we are still seeing vaccinated people getting infected with COVID-19! | 23:06 |
| ReGiStRaS | why? | 23:07 |
| de-facto | efficacy measures how much the *probability* for symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection of a vaccinated group is lowered compared to a non-vaccinated control group under same conditions (hence double blinded study) | 23:07 |
| darsie | Some get infected before the vaccine is fully effective. Some vaccines don't protect from some strains. | 23:08 |
| ReGiStRaS | again that does not equate to immunity | 23:08 |
| darsie | Tell the CDC to improve that page, then. | 23:08 |
| de-facto | there is no vaccine, worldwide that gives 100% efficacy against any disease | 23:08 |
| de-facto | for example 95% is extremely good in comparison | 23:09 |
| ReGiStRaS | then the word immunity shouldn't be used at all | 23:09 |
| darsie | Tell the CDC to improve that page, then. | 23:09 |
| de-facto | there is no 100% protection by immunity against any disease | 23:09 |
| LjL | the word immunity is used because it's both the scientifically and popularly appropriate word to use. | 23:09 |
| de-facto | its the nature of probability | 23:09 |
| LjL | it's like after COVID suddenly people realized that 95% is not 100% while before, they took it for granted that the measles vaccine was virtually 100% (which it isn't, none is), while the flu vaccine was like 60%, and neither was a big deal | 23:10 |
| ReGiStRaS | immunity: the ability of an organism to resist a particular infection or toxin by the action of specific antibodies or sensitized white blood cells. | 23:10 |
| LjL | yes, resist doesn't necessarily mean beat, overcome, eradicate... | 23:10 |
| darsie | Some people have weak immune systems. | 23:10 |
| LjL | the antibodies etc certainly do resist | 23:10 |
| LjL | how effective that is will depend | 23:10 |
| de-facto | i think the term immunity refers to a bodies immune system as reaction to already having been exposed to an antigen and doing its best to protect from infection against it. that is the "normal" case, i have no idea why one would want to refer to something else when talking about immunity | 23:11 |
| darsie | ReGiStRaS: You could come up with a new word instead of 'immune' system, too. | 23:11 |
| darsie | While you're at it, please say tom instead of atom. Atom means unsplittable from tomos=split and a=not. Toms can be split. | 23:13 |
| de-facto | :D | 23:13 |
| ReGiStRaS | so if a person who have received both doses of vaccine and then got infected with COVID-19 (assuming another strain) 3 months after 2nd does, the person would be asymptomatic usually, right? | 23:14 |
| LjL | %addpoint darsie | 23:14 |
| Brainstorm | darsie: +1/-0, 1 | 23:14 |
| darsie | :) | 23:14 |
| LjL | ReGiStRaS, if it's a different strain from the one the vaccine is "made for", it's hard to say what will happen, tbh | 23:15 |
| LjL | there are some studies on how effective vaccines are with variants, but really vaccines are important to be deployed quickly because we really don't want variants so much as possible | 23:15 |
| ReGiStRaS | ok let's assume the person is asymptomatic. THat means during they asymptomatic period, they can still spread COVID-19 right? | 23:16 |
| de-facto | ReGiStRaS, well its always a probability game, the immunity has a whole spectrum: sterilizing immunity (preventing any infection from going on, very rare actually), immunity against asymptomatic infeciton, against symptomatic infection (endpoint of vaccine studies), immunity against more severe progressions (and hospitalizations), immunity against fatal outcome | 23:16 |
| LjL | ReGiStRaS, if they're asymptomatic *and* vaccinated it's very likely there are much lower chances of spreading, but it's still theoretically possible. but also, "variants" aside, with an effective vaccine a majority of cases are likely not going to even be asymptomatic, they're just going to not happen. | 23:19 |
| de-facto | with the highest level of immunity (freshly vaccinated against exactly the same variant) it would start for most at preventing symptomatic infections (or even asymptomatic infections for some), then slowly waning off (and also antigenic drift, mutations selected and having an advantage if they gain some immuno-evasive capabilities) hence immunity against hospitalizations and fatal outcomes would vanish last | 23:19 |
| LjL | de-facto, i strongly feel that with mRNA vaccine, most people will actually get something that is effectively at least equivalent to sterilizing immunity (i.e. they won't get symptoms AND they won't be contagious) | 23:20 |
| de-facto | its never a black and white game, there always are all levels of gray in between and things are always in constant state of change, e.g. immunity drifts as well as virus mutations | 23:20 |
| LjL | i'm not so sure about that with other types of vaccine though | 23:20 |
| de-facto | LjL, yeah i think there were studies from Moderna, almost a year ago, that showed that at the peak level of their vaccine induced immunity they could prevent viral replication also in the nasal mucus (was it a challenge study in primates?), but who knows how long that lasts and if that even is possible with a Wuhan style s-protein vaccination and now having pre-selected, partly immuo-evasive VoCs circulating such as SA Mutant B.1.351 et al | 23:22 |
| LjL | granted, there are many variables at play, and variants are certainly one of the scariest | 23:22 |
| de-facto | anyhow protection against severe progressions or fatal outcomes by *far* is better than protection against (a)symptomatic infections for any of the vaccines | 23:23 |
| de-facto | fortunately | 23:23 |
| de-facto | also the efficacy numbers cant be directly compared because studies have been done at different times, with different variants, in different populations etc | 23:25 |
| de-facto | quite a good explanatory video (about the generic ideas) is the following | 23:25 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3odScka55A | 23:25 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.youtube.com: Prima di continuare su YouTube | 23:26 |
| de-facto | "Why you can't compare Covid-19 vaccines" | 23:26 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Ecuador: +1175 cases (now 428865), +61 deaths (now 20681) since 5 hours ago — Ethiopia: +246 cases (now 272036), +7 deaths (now 4178) since 5 hours ago — Cabo Verde: +171 cases (now 30694), +2 deaths (now 266) since 5 hours ago — Rwanda: +41 cases (now 27064), +1 deaths (now 358) since 5 hours ago | 23:35 |
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