| Brainstorm | Updates for Kuwait: +1443 cases (now 313289), +4 deaths (now 1783) since a day ago — El Salvador: +439 cases (now 74141) since 4 hours ago — Trinidad and Tobago: +546 cases (now 25272), +14 deaths (now 537) since 23 hours ago | 00:35 |
|---|---|---|
| Brainstorm | Updates for Guatemala: +1466 cases (now 258633), +24 deaths (now 8238) since a day ago — Rwanda: +55 cases (now 27119) since a day ago — Syria: +32 cases (now 24591), +4 deaths (now 1782) since a day ago — Togo: +17 cases (now 13513) since 20 hours ago | 01:37 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Zimbabwe: +61 cases (now 39092), +5 deaths (now 1604) since a day ago | 02:02 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Ukraine: +1906 cases (now 2.2 million), +94 deaths (now 51935) since 21 hours ago — Netherlands: +1316 cases (now 1.7 million), +7 deaths (now 17782) since 21 hours ago — Kazakhstan: +716 cases (now 417070) since 21 hours ago — French Guiana: +169 cases (now 24534), +1 deaths (now 121) since 22 hours ago | 02:39 |
| LjL-Matrix | Peter: nice, your message shows up as the latest message sent on Matrix, but i replied to you on IRC and there were other messages too :\ | 02:41 |
| LjL | test | 02:41 |
| LjL-Matrix | this bridge "feature" is just... bad | 02:41 |
| gardar1 | /!\ THIЅ ⅭዘАⲚNᎬL HΑS ΜOⅤEᎠ ТО IRC．ᒪΙBEᏒA．ⅭⲎAΤ #ΗAᎷRAᎠIΟ ／﹗＼ | 03:01 |
| gardar1 | /!\ THΕ JᎬWS ⲎᎪᏙΕ ΤAΚΕN OⅤЕR ᖴRΕᎬΝОⅮΕ， ⲤHΑТS ዘAVE MOᏙEⅮ TО IᎡC.LΙⲂEᖇА.ϹHAᎢ /!﹨ | 03:01 |
| LjL | oh gah | 03:03 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Fr. Polynesia: +5 cases (now 18884) since a day ago | 03:04 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Botswana: +1244 cases (now 56217), +17 deaths (now 866) since a day ago — Bahamas: +32 cases (now 11896) since a day ago — Lesotho: +5 cases (now 10836) since a day ago | 03:32 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for St. Martin: +125 cases (now 2040) since a day ago — Iceland: +2 cases (now 6597) since a day ago | 04:10 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Colombia: +28624 cases (now 3.5 million), +545 deaths (now 90353) since a day ago — Paraguay: +3262 cases (now 364702), +102 deaths (now 9498) since 23 hours ago — Burkina Faso: +11 cases (now 13446) since a day ago | 04:33 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Panama: +701 cases (now 380207), +7 deaths (now 6388) since a day ago — South Korea: +695 cases (now 142852), +1 deaths (now 1969) since a day ago — Saint Lucia: +30 cases (now 5102) since a day ago | 05:35 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Venezuela: +1258 cases (now 238013), +15 deaths (now 2689) since a day ago — Belgium: +1599 cases (now 1.1 million), +13 deaths (now 24995) since a day ago — Germany: +60 deaths (now 89317) since 23 hours ago | 06:37 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Ceara, Brazil: +6132 cases (now 815740), +114 deaths (now 20834) since a day ago — Lima, Peru: +2618 cases (now 883032), +54559 deaths (now 84360) since a day ago — Parana, Brazil: +5102 cases (now 1.1 million), +121 deaths (now 26916) since a day ago — England, United Kingdom: +4215 cases (now 3.9 million), +13 deaths (now 112415) since a day ago | 07:39 |
| pwr22 | LjL so the bridging is broken again? | 08:11 |
| genera | i see a lot of [m] nicks. | 08:17 |
| genera | but maybe they are just Metal fans | 08:17 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for India: +132364 cases (now 28.6 million), +1814 deaths (now 339803) since 16 hours ago — Kyrgyzstan: +383 cases (now 106223), +7 deaths (now 1837) since 23 hours ago — Puerto Rico: +49 cases (now 122166), +3 deaths (now 2515) since 21 hours ago | 08:41 |
| jacklsw | india is still doing bad | 08:42 |
| KREYREN[m] | any new info for the long-term side effects of covid-19 vaccine or anything i should know before i take it? | 09:01 |
| genera | talk to your physician on how to selfdiagnose thrombosis in the first two days | 09:17 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Cambodia: +886 cases (now 33075), +6 deaths (now 242) since 23 hours ago | 09:31 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Lithuania: +370 cases (now 275915), +8 deaths (now 4297) since a day ago | 10:08 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Karnataka, India: +18324 cases (now 2.7 million), +514 deaths (now 30531) since a day ago — Maharashtra, India: +15229 cases (now 5.8 million), +643 deaths (now 97394) since a day ago — Odisha, India: +8839 cases (now 790970), +42 deaths (now 2873) since a day ago — Assam, India: +4309 cases (now 424385), +46 deaths (now 3523) since a day ago | 10:33 |
| -Bridgestorm- 🌒 Earthquake! 6.0 Mwp tremor, registered by 7 agencies, occurred 17 minutes ago (08:17:02 UTC), with a crescent moon, Off Coast Of Oregon (42.3, -126.14) ± 4 km, ↓12 km likely felt 260 km away (in Eureka…) by 27200 people (webservices.ingv.it) | 10:34 | |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Russia: +8947 cases (now 5.1 million), +377 deaths (now 123037) since a day ago — Germany: +2309 cases (now 3.7 million) since 23 hours ago | 11:35 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: G7 e Consiglio Europeo, colloquio telefonico Draghi - Merkel ( https://www.governo.it/it/articolo/g7-e-consiglio-europeo-colloquio-telefonico-draghi-merkel/16976 ) | 11:53 | |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Philippines: +7438 cases (now 1.3 million), +180 deaths (now 21537) since a day ago | 12:38 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Indonesia: +6486 cases (now 1.8 million), +388 deaths (now 51296) since 23 hours ago — Romania: +225 cases (now 1.1 million), +113 deaths (now 30612) since 23 hours ago | 13:02 |
| de-facto | 3 days after first Moderna injection my deltoid muscle does not hurt anymore by moving the arm only slightly when squeezing it | 13:47 |
| de-facto | i wonder if i was just lucky and had mild reactogenicity or if it is like that for most of those shots and how much more it would be for 2nd shot | 13:48 |
| dTal | is there a correlation between severity of vaccine reaction and strength of resulting protection? | 13:49 |
| dTal | should I *hope* to get really ill from the vaccine? | 13:49 |
| de-facto | i am not sure if there is consensus about that, afaik i heard in the podcasts (i think Kekule), that there might not be a direct correlation established between reactogenicity (reaction directly to the injection) and immunogenicity (raising the immunity) | 13:50 |
| de-facto | i hope that it worked for me with raising the immunity... | 13:51 |
| de-facto | dTal, the thing is that reactogenicity also could be against some other substances (e.g. impurities or helper substances) that are not directly involved in raising the immunity against SARS-CoV-2 | 13:52 |
| de-facto | so if the arm hurts, how would i know the exact origin of the cause for that? is it due to immune reaction against the s-protein blooming or is it because of some other substances that my immune system gets berserk about? | 13:53 |
| de-facto | probably its always a mix of both | 13:54 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for UAE: +2062 cases (now 579009), +2 deaths (now 1691) since a day ago | 14:05 |
| genera | it turns you into an berserker. sorry we forgot to tell you ^^ | 14:11 |
| KREYREN[m] | any new info for the long-term side effects of covid-19 vaccine or anything i should know before i take it? | 14:21 |
| KREYREN[m] | and any info on whether the new vietnamese variant has an effective vaccine agains it? | 14:21 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Libya: +386 cases (now 186953), +5 deaths (now 3137) since a day ago — Austria: +333 cases (now 646167), +4 deaths (now 10631) since a day ago — Nepal: +4624 cases (now 581560), +101 deaths (now 7731) since 22 hours ago — Switzerland: +1079 cases (now 697292) since 23 hours ago | 14:36 |
| de-facto | KREYREN[m], dont worry about the Vietnamese Variant too much, its just they sequenced it and now are proud to have their own variant, nothing established if it got any additional worrisome capabilities so far at least afaik | 14:46 |
| de-facto | and in regards to new info about vaccine side effects, i guess as soon as the first sign of that would show it would be headlines all over the press, so the absense of such probably means nothing really new for now | 14:47 |
| de-facto[m] | hmm IRC messages dont appear here? | 14:50 |
| de-facto[m] | <- genera that [m] means the user is on the Matrix side of the bridge | 14:50 |
| genera | yah and we cant tell whether the bridge is up | 14:51 |
| de-facto | LjL, for some reason IRC messages are not visible on the Matrix side again | 14:51 |
| genera | [m] can also mean user is an Metal fan | 14:51 |
| de-facto | genera, the matrix bridge probably uses the same IPv6 network for all its puppets | 14:52 |
| de-facto | so if a [m] is from that ip range it means from matrix (which ofc does not exclude metal fans though :) | 14:52 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Bangladesh: +1887 cases (now 807867), +34 deaths (now 12758) since 23 hours ago — Slovenia: +280 cases (now 254972), +2 deaths (now 4385) since a day ago | 15:38 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Dem. Rep. Congo: +368 cases (now 32545) since 21 hours ago — Haiti: +127 cases (now 15058) since a day ago — Vietnam: +172 cases (now 8287) since 7 hours ago — Fiji: +35 cases (now 571) since a day ago | 16:40 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Consiglio dei Ministri n. 22 ( https://www.governo.it/it/articolo/consiglio-dei-ministri-n-22/16991 ) | 16:53 | |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Convocazione del Consiglio dei Ministri n. 22 ( https://www.governo.it/it/articolo/convocazione-del-consiglio-dei-ministri-n-22/16992 ) | 16:53 | |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Belarus: +1183 cases (now 398052), +10 deaths (now 2892) since a day ago | 17:05 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Sri Lanka: +3410 cases (now 198579) since 23 hours ago — Liberia: +31 cases (now 2250) since a day ago — Kosovo: +1 deaths (now 2249) since a day ago | 17:30 |
| LjL | <de-facto> LjL, for some reason IRC messages are not visible on the Matrix side again ← i know, this bug is a mess, i've thought about going back to Matterbridge for the time being but if i remove the "official" bridge it sometimes breaks and then you cannot re-add it | 18:05 |
| LjL | i think really the privacy vs inconvenience factor heavily weighs against the convenience here, but i don't decide | 18:05 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Italy: +198 cases (now 4.2 million), +5 deaths (now 126347) since 23 hours ago | 18:07 |
| de-facto | yeah asked in libera-matrix, they said its a known bug that is being worked on | 18:12 |
| de-facto | weirdly its not an issue in my channel | 18:12 |
| de-facto | the only difference i can see it that your channel is v5 and mine v6 but probably that is not related | 18:13 |
| de-facto | they say it may be history related, yet we both are on defaults | 18:13 |
| de-facto | idk i guess we have to live with the initial bumpy ride, if they are working on it it may hopefully be fixed in some time | 18:14 |
| de-facto | ok they say "It's not a history setting or a room version bug" | 18:18 |
| de-facto | hence some other bug then | 18:18 |
| de-facto | hmm | 18:18 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Myanmar: +212 cases (now 144157) since 23 hours ago — United Kingdom: +5820 cases (now 4.5 million) since 20 hours ago | 18:32 |
| LjL | de-facto, it's not an issue in #microg either, i dunno | 18:32 |
| LjL | de-facto, i didn't want to upgrade this room, since it was already v5, and had a lot of people in it. i've upgraded my v1 rooms before adding the bridge, and i feel that upgrading has helped *getting the bridge in*, when it failed to join and then wanted to join twice. but after it's already in, i'm not sure it makes a difference | 18:33 |
| LjL | also if a room has more than 100 people when you attempt to create a bridge, it won't allow you, and we're close here | 18:33 |
| dendtriticcell[m | <KREYREN[m] "and any info on whether the new "> are you aware the 'vietnamese variant' is made up nonsense, and only exists because the government got sued by INDIA for claiming an indian variant exists, for which they could provide zero evidence, so they had to pivot to using a different country to fearmonger that would be less likely to sue them for making false claims? | 18:35 |
| KREYREN[m] | dendtriticcell: i am not, i just saw them doing mass testing claiming that it's much worse then UK variant | 18:36 |
| pwr22 | de-facto de-facto : bridge being sketchy again? | 18:36 |
| pwr22 | <krey "any new info for the long-term s"> Benefits still outweight costs | 18:37 |
| KREYREN[m] | the cost apparently includes death of people that doesn't seem worth it to me | 18:38 |
| KREYREN[m] | especially if i was the lucky one | 18:38 |
| pwr22 | The liklihood of dying from covid if you don't take it is far higher | 18:38 |
| dendtriticcell[m | <KREYREN[m] "dendtriticcell: i am not, i just"> oh, well the emergency powers were set to expire in september, and they are the entire basis for the vaccine being given 'emergency use authorization' ...so you see, they need to keep the 'emergency' going, this is where 'variants' come in. "much worse" makes absolutely no sense. first of all in virology you are either more transmissible and less virulent, or less transmissible and more | 18:38 |
| dendtriticcell[m | virulent. not both at the same time, which is the false claim they are making | 18:38 |
| pwr22 | Like several orders of magnitude higher | 18:38 |
| de-facto | indeed | 18:38 |
| dendtriticcell[m | <pwr22 "Benefits still outweight costs"> going by which metric? the absolute risk reduction of the pfizer vaccine is 0.8% | 18:38 |
| pwr22 | In particular even from the dreaded bloodclot | 18:39 |
| pwr22 | dendtriticcell: so you're saying its 0.8% effective? | 18:39 |
| pwr22 | I.e. if before 1000 people would get covid then with the vaccine 9920 people would get covid? | 18:39 |
| KREYREN[m] | dendtriticcell: noted the opnion? (seems plausable) in vietnamese variant | 18:39 |
| dendtriticcell[m | https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(21)00069-0/ you can read all about the different between "relative risk reduction" aka 95% efficacy, and the truth, which is absolute risk reduction = 0.8% | 18:39 |
| pwr22 | *992 | 18:39 |
| de-facto | bridge got restarted so possibly working better now, after it joined all the users again | 18:40 |
| pwr22 | KREYREN: there is almost certainly no Vietnamese variant | 18:40 |
| KREYREN[m] | i though that the efficacy is BS as they weren't done in the same environment | 18:41 |
| pwr22 | It's the same indian variants as everywhere else is dealing with | 18:41 |
| de-facto | pretty much afaik with one additional indel at 144 or such | 18:41 |
| pwr22 | They might not be directly comparable but they are clearly indicative of significant infection | 18:41 |
| dendtriticcell[m | the pfizer EMA leaks also showed that commercial batches had a much lower count of viable rna, vs the batches used in the clinical trials | 18:42 |
| pwr22 | *reduction of infection | 18:42 |
| KREYREN[m] | So is it sane for me to take Pfyzer, Moderna, AstraZeneca and expect it to produce the Immunoglobin agains SARS-CoV-2 and it's variants without permanent side effects or death? | 18:42 |
| KREYREN[m] | and J&J | 18:42 |
| pwr22 | It's quite likely you will not have permanent side effects or death yes | 18:42 |
| KREYREN[m] | quite likely is concerning | 18:43 |
| pwr22 | No it's not | 18:43 |
| pwr22 | Nothing is 100% safe | 18:43 |
| LjL | going to get the vaccine isn't safe, you might be run over by a bus | 18:43 |
| KREYREN[m] | My software is assuming that i am not lazy to write tests and continuous tests of it's sanity | 18:43 |
| LjL | and for a more realistic risk, you might get COVID | 18:43 |
| pwr22 | There's a small chance that if you take an ibuprofen your skin will stop adhering to your underlying structure and you could have your hand skin ripped off like a glove, it's called degloving | 18:43 |
| dendtriticcell[m | 200 million doses given, 14,000 dead. no worries, it's only 0.0006% killrate. | 18:43 |
| pwr22 | and it is called SJS | 18:43 |
| dendtriticcell[m | plus that group includes people that are end of life | 18:43 |
| LjL | i'd say that's a much more concrete risk than death from vaccine | 18:43 |
| dendtriticcell[m | plus anyone can file a VAERS report | 18:44 |
| KREYREN[m] | LjL: I can dodge the bus as i am fast af.. can't dodge a thing that is inside me though | 18:44 |
| pwr22 | No drug is perfectly safe, but most are safer than your liklihood of being struck by lightening | 18:44 |
| LjL | KREYREN[m], well i hope that's just a joke and you don't think that's an actual risk avoidance strategy that makes sense :P | 18:44 |
| meoww | KREYREN[m]: weigh your personal risk of Covid, co-morbidity, age, long covid vs. what you know about vaccines and risk ratios | 18:44 |
| pwr22 | which is quite high, something like 1 in 6 million per year in the US | 18:44 |
| pwr22 | Or maybe that's the worldwide, probably worldwide | 18:44 |
| pwr22 | meoww: my concern is they *don't* know how to filter good or bad data on the vaccines | 18:45 |
| KREYREN[m] | LjL: it's almost 2 years since the outbreak and i didn't get covid even though i am constatly going out so i guess wearing gas mask and maintaining social distancing with a desinfecting gel in my pocket seems as more sane to me atb | 18:45 |
| KREYREN[m] | *atm | 18:45 |
| LjL | KREYREN[m], what is the prevalence of COVID in your area? | 18:45 |
| pwr22 | KREYREN: are you an anti-vaxxer in general by any chance? | 18:46 |
| KREYREN[m] | LjL: People wearing masks and retard principal telling me to go in the school full of 200 people or i won't be a doctor of medicine | 18:46 |
| meoww | pwr22: tbf, there is both a dearth and a flood of data, folks so, get confused, and dump all trust | 18:46 |
| KREYREN[m] | Peter: I am not, but concerned | 18:46 |
| KREYREN[m] | i am going on vaccine shots on regular bases.. but i am uncomfortable about mRNA as it's new thing and this is it's first vaccine | 18:46 |
| pwr22 | KREYREN: what's the rationale for your concern. Do you have any good data to inform it or is it more of an emotional judgement? | 18:47 |
| meoww | I think even Fauci and the new CDC leader have some issues, imo | 18:47 |
| pwr22 | Many millions have had the mRNA vaccines and there actually appear to be less side effects than the viral vectors | 18:48 |
| meoww | KREYREN[m]: a gas mask, makes you appear dubious | 18:49 |
| pwr22 | If it also helps, either the mRNA or the viral vectors contain genetic material that they get your cells to process into covid spike proteins which are what your immune system will generate an immunity to | 18:49 |
| dendtriticcell[m | median age of covid dead: 80 | 18:49 |
| dendtriticcell[m | have you looked at the mortality rate for 'covid' as it relates to your age group? | 18:49 |
| dendtriticcell[m | let's say you have a 99.97% chance of surviving covid, is it worth taking a non FDA approved experimental gene therapy, which was not even tested to reduce all-cause mortality, or it's impacts on fertility, mutagenicity, carcinogenicity. in exchange for 'possible' protection (it's not even guaranteed, check the news, many vaccinated get covid) from 'severe' symptoms. can anyone describe according to the clinical trial data | 18:49 |
| dendtriticcell[m | specifically which severe symptoms they were referencing? | 18:49 |
| pwr22 | So it's really just a question of packaging | 18:49 |
| meoww | "gas mask" as if you don't believe in masks? | 18:49 |
| KREYREN[m] | I guess the good data would be to wait 20 years and see if it has any long-term side effects, but that is not an option atm. | 18:49 |
| KREYREN[m] | I am concerned about AZ not being effective agains variants and they seem to have a record of malpractice which seems to be general knowledge? | 18:49 |
| KREYREN[m] | I don't trust the WHO as they are making false statements and public missleading data to maintain relationships over the health of the populus | 18:49 |
| KREYREN[m] | The sinovac would be more comfortable if more people in my area got it to see if they have any issues | 18:49 |
| pwr22 | dendtriticcell: it's not a gene therapy | 18:50 |
| KREYREN[m] | <meoww "KREYREN: a gas mask, makes you a"> I don't like respirators as they don't fit snugly enough around my face and gas mask is easier to breathe through with better venting | 18:50 |
| pwr22 | It does not alter your genetic material | 18:50 |
| meoww | KREYREN[m]: yeah rightttt | 18:50 |
| LjL | i find it pretty absurd that you'd prefer Sinovac over mRNA or AZ | 18:50 |
| KREYREN[m] | i know it's not altering genetics but i am concerned about the lack of testing of czechs and people with simmilar DNA in case there are unseen side effects | 18:51 |
| LjL | Sinovac is quite ineffective as has been stated by some among the Chinese themselves (who then had to backpedal of course) | 18:51 |
| dendtriticcell[m | <pwr22 "dendtriticcell: it's not a gene "> direct from moderna SEC filings. "mRNA is considered a gene therapy product by the FDA" https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1682852/000168285220000017/mrna-20200630.htm | 18:51 |
| LjL | countries like Chile using Sinovac have experienced spikes anyway | 18:51 |
| pwr22 | LjL: if you get news from people who foment conspiracy it's probably more expected | 18:51 |
| pwr22 | Since they have to be contrary right? | 18:51 |
| KREYREN[m] | LjL: didn't look into sinovac yet, assuming the reports of lab leaks proven i would question the process of how it was made | 18:51 |
| LjL | well that's a whole other topic | 18:52 |
| pwr22 | dendtriticcell: that's fine, I don't change my understanding of the science based on the category the FDA put things in | 18:52 |
| LjL | but if it was made by lab work, they could have done a better job | 18:52 |
| pwr22 | I'm also in the UK where you can literally buy and eat things the FDA has banned | 18:52 |
| pwr22 | and we have not all died | 18:52 |
| pwr22 | So they are not infallible | 18:52 |
| pwr22 | Definitely worth looking more into why they've classed it that way though | 18:52 |
| LjL | because... it is literally genome? | 18:53 |
| KREYREN[m] | also concerned that we don't understand DNA enough to be able to make sense of it and change it without unwanted side effects to know for sure that these are not making anything unwanted.. As a programmer i would be prefer to make a testrig and run the code on it to see what happens with possible alteration of time | 18:53 |
| pwr22 | Sure, but viruses contain genetic material too but those vaccines aren't a gene therapy? | 18:53 |
| LjL | i am scared of things and i would freak out if i had any effects after AZ, despite trying to be rational | 18:53 |
| KREYREN[m] | but i am not concerned about mRNA altering DNA | 18:53 |
| KREYREN[m] | since two different things? | 18:53 |
| LjL | but i'm definitely not freaked out by the FDA defining something that is RNA as gene therapy | 18:54 |
| pwr22 | I might be wrong but I believe gene therapy is usually used to describe things that are altering your own DNA or at least the expression of genes? | 18:54 |
| LjL | KREYREN[m], mRNA doesn't alter DNA unless you have a retrovirus doing it with specific mechanisms | 18:54 |
| LjL | so if you think the vaccine is HIV, well, it most definitely isn't | 18:54 |
| KREYREN[m] | LjL: i know | 18:54 |
| pwr22 | <LjL "i am scared of things and i woul"> That would be pretty normal, how you respond to those emotions might be a bit more extreme though 😅 | 18:54 |
| dendtriticcell[m | <pwr22 "I might be wrong but I believe g"> SARS-CoV-2 RNA reverse-transcribed and integrated into the human genome https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.12.422516v1.full | 18:54 |
| pwr22 | I am prone to anxiety and have worried after both of my jabs | 18:55 |
| pwr22 | for various reasons | 18:55 |
| pwr22 | But I'm not dead | 18:55 |
| pwr22 | Or even ill | 18:55 |
| pwr22 | Soo.... anxiety can be wrong and isn't always useful imo | 18:55 |
| LjL | sure | 18:55 |
| LjL | but you also don't flick a switch to control it :P | 18:55 |
| LjL | KREYREN[m], tell me, does this curve http://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Chile&cumulative=no&smooth=yes in your opinion make sense for a country with this amount of vaccinations https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations unless they're done with vaccines that are not too effective? | 18:56 |
| pwr22 | Yep, all you can do is try to frame it that way and learn to trust it less in future | 18:57 |
| * KREYREN[m] is still uncomfortable about the vaccine | 18:57 | |
| pwr22 | There's a lot of fear in this channel | 18:57 |
| dendtriticcell[m | anxiety = down regulate immune fuction = more susceptible to disease/opportunistic infections | 18:57 |
| dendtriticcell[m | would not recommend | 18:57 |
| KREYREN[m] | LjL: i don't question the effectiveness of the vaccine.. i question the safety | 18:57 |
| dendtriticcell[m | While there are a variety of reasons or explanations to the various disease sets below, the most (if not only) common identified contributor to each of these disorders, according to western/traditional medicine, is stress. | 18:58 |
| dendtriticcell[m | joint pain, migraines, neurological disease, hypertension, cardiovascular disease, autoimmune, cancer, arthritis, irritable bowel, chronic fatigue, colitis, tendonitis, carpal tunnel, heartburn, leaky gut, prostatitis, thyroid disease, brain fog, anxiety, depression, impotence, high blood pressure, hereditary disease | 18:58 |
| KREYREN[m] | since from a point of view of a politician saving 5M people in exchange of 5 death is worth it.. but from a personal it's not worth it if i am among the 5 dead | 18:58 |
| pwr22 | dendtriticcell: and by the logic in that paper, if this was common then most people would stay positive testing on PCR tests, but in reality they are still proving to be very accurate | 18:58 |
| pwr22 | Meaning people go from negative, to positive, to negative | 18:58 |
| LjL | KREYREN[m], also about your statement that if you haven't gotten COVID until now, then you are probably protecting yourself effective... sure, that could be true to an extent, however, if i remember correctly that you're in Czechia, the prevalence of COVID there is 16%. That's a LOT, but it still means that 84% of the people in the country have NOT been infected yet. for many, hopefully, the protection measures they've used have helped, but for many also it's just | 18:58 |
| LjL | been chance | 18:58 |
| dendtriticcell[m | <KREYREN[m] "LjL: i don't question the effect"> you should question it's effectiveness, they said 95% but it was 0.8%, but it should be no surprise coming from a company that knew for over 10 years their baby powder caused ovarian cancer, this does not include the 2.3B settlement they paid for making false claims | 18:58 |
| KREYREN[m] | and the worst case scenario for me is something like the rare thrombosis that the 5 women had after J&J | 18:58 |
| LjL | dendtriticcell[m, please, scientific evidence of that 0.8% effectiveness | 18:59 |
| meoww | matrix users :P | 18:59 |
| pwr22 | <KREYREN[m] "since from a point of view of a "> KREYREN: sure and if there was a way to accurately predict if you were gonna be one of those 5 people you should absolutely listen to that an abstain from the vaccine. But there isn't, it's a lottery and if everyone abstains because of a 1/million chance (it's actually less than this for even the AZ side effects) then we would be fucked | 19:00 |
| dendtriticcell[m | <LjL "dendtriticcell, please, scientif"> https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(21)00069-0/ | 19:00 |
| pwr22 | Also, whilst most covid people are more vulnerable with pre-existing conditions and older age, fit and healthy young people have died | 19:00 |
| pwr22 | so it's not like abstaining is "safe" | 19:00 |
| pwr22 | You are still gambling | 19:00 |
| LjL | meoww, pwr22 is a Matrix user, and also an op in this channel, if you think Matrix users are the problem, and not simply people with strange ideas, i guess have a chat with him :P | 19:00 |
| pwr22 | And you are gambling with documented worse odds! | 19:00 |
| KREYREN[m] | dendtriticcell: i am aware of their shady practices, but i don't understand how does that translate to the vaccine? | 19:01 |
| meoww | LjL: there are exceptions to rules, nvm me | 19:02 |
| KREYREN[m] | <pwr22 "Also, whilst most covid people a"> i have astma and sleep apnoe which i understood increases the risk? | 19:02 |
| pwr22 | I know asthma does, not sure about sleep apnea | 19:03 |
| pwr22 | For what it's worth, I am overweight, generally suffer badly from respiratory things, have shitty blood pressure and asthma | 19:04 |
| dendtriticcell[m | <KREYREN[m] "dendtriticcell: i am aware of th"> According to the scientific literature, vaccine benefits are overstated, and risks understated. This view is supported by the billion dollar settlements. "Pfizer has been charged 74 times with criminal and civil violations and paid a total of $4,660,896,333 in fines. The top offenses to which the company plead guilty are unapproved marketing of products, bribery, making false claims, | 19:04 |
| dendtriticcell[m | safety violations, environmental violations, racketeering, and violations of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act." | 19:04 |
| KREYREN[m] | Peter: czech gov didn't want to give me priority for astma, but gave me for sleep apnoe | 19:04 |
| pwr22 | So for me it's a pretty easy call to take any vaccine I'm offered | 19:04 |
| meoww | LjL: do you believe they/them really wear a gas mask in public? | 19:05 |
| KREYREN[m] | dendtriticcell: Nothing relevant to the vaccine though? about the risks and benefits i've noticed that the 95% effectiveness went down to 73% or alike that got me concerned | 19:05 |
| LjL | meoww, my assumption is by "gas mask" they mean a reusable respirator, and yet, i know people who wear those | 19:05 |
| KREYREN[m] | and concerned about the lack of testing on czech people with simmilar genetics | 19:05 |
| finely[m] | <KREYREN[m] "So is it sane for me to take Pfy"> The AZ clotting disorder's only known risk factor is age. Younger people have a higher risk. Older people are more at risk of severe COVID. So the math works out in favour of older people getting the AZ vaccine. If you are young, in an area with high disease spread, the math still works out in favour of getting vaccinated with AZ. The clotting disorder is now understood, and can be treated. | 19:06 |
| KREYREN[m] | LjL: I use M3 7500 mask with FFP3 filter and subfilter for various chemical weapons | 19:06 |
| KREYREN[m] | it's a gasmask that covers only face and nose | 19:06 |
| dendtriticcell[m | throwback to 2019, when natural immunity was a thing | 19:07 |
| pwr22 | dendtriticcell: btw, the full quote from the Moderna SEC filing that you cherry picked from: | 19:07 |
| pwr22 | Currently, mRNA is considered a gene therapy product by the FDA. Unlike certain gene therapies that irreversibly alter cell DNA and could act as a source of side effects, mRNA-based medicines are designed to not irreversibly change cell DNA; however, side effects observed in gene therapy could negatively impact the perception of mRNA medicines despite the differences in mechanism. | 19:07 |
| LjL | what i remember from 2019 or so is that measles outbreaks were starting to happen in my country because the "artificial" herd immunity (i.e. vaccines) was no longer reached after anti-vax people got it below 90% or so | 19:07 |
| KREYREN[m] | finely: i am concerned about the time period of figuring out i have the clotting disorder to treating it as blood clot in brain/heart can be fatal | 19:07 |
| pwr22 | They are literally addressing the gene therapy misconception in the sentence you quoted 🤦♂️ | 19:08 |
| meoww | KREYREN[m]: so many 'concerns' | 19:08 |
| KREYREN[m] | meoww: shoudn't i have them? | 19:08 |
| KREYREN[m] | feels like russian roulette to me atm.. | 19:08 |
| LjL | KREYREN[m], russian roulette is 1 out of 6 chances of being dead, not 1 out of 10000 (or less) of getting blood clots | 19:09 |
| LjL | i feel your risk perception is just way off atm | 19:09 |
| KREYREN[m] | or like you woudn't be allowed to sell soda if the soda killed 1/100 people who drank it.. | 19:09 |
| dendtriticcell[m | > <@pwr22:shortestpath.dev> dendtriticcell: btw, the full quote from the Moderna SEC filing that you cherry picked from: | 19:10 |
| dendtriticcell[m | > Currently, mRNA is considered a gene therapy product by the FDA. Unlike certain gene therapies that irreversibly alter cell DNA and could act as a source of side effects, mRNA-based medicines are designed to not irreversibly change cell DNA; however, side effects observed in gene therapy could negatively impact the perception of mRNA medicines despite the differences in mechanism. | 19:10 |
| dendtriticcell[m | they made a claim which is countered here. SARS-CoV-2 RNA reverse-transcribed and integrated into the human genome https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.12.422516v1.full | 19:10 |
| LjL | KREYREN[m], (except it kinda does, and some countries are trying to tackle that) | 19:10 |
| KREYREN[m] | LjL: agree that the risk perception is off as i don't feel like i understand the factors that influence the risk | 19:10 |
| LjL | (or i could say "you wouldn't be allowed to sell cigarettes if...") | 19:10 |
| KREYREN[m] | also fam has an ongoing argument about taking covid-19 vaccine with a medication to prevent clothing of the blood | 19:10 |
| meoww | KREYREN[m]: well if you could pick 2 or 3 and we might focus :) on those | 19:10 |
| dendtriticcell[m | not a single person answered "what are the severe symptoms the vaccine is alleging to offer protection from" ..you would think someone would know this key piece of information | 19:11 |
| LjL | dendtriticcell[m, of course we *know* that some viruses can reverse transcribe themselves into DNA, like HIV, and yes there have been studies about SARS-CoV-2 potentially doing that (but i also saw a study that debunked it), but, like... this is exactly what we're trying to do, AVOID getting SARS-CoV-2. just a strand of mRNA won't magically turn into DNA, there needs to be a virus with machinery to do that | 19:11 |
| KREYREN[m] | LjL: what if the mRNA somehow mutates in +- 3 years into a something that can alter DNA | 19:12 |
| LjL | dendtriticcell[m, i'm not sure anyone is going to bother listing the symptoms that COVID causes just so you can cite fringe science that says it somehow actually doesn't, despite ICU doctors seeing otherwise | 19:12 |
| LjL | KREYREN[m], the mRNA is gone much, much sooner than 3 years | 19:12 |
| LjL | and how would it mutate, it's not an evolving organism | 19:12 |
| LjL | KREYREN[m], the mRNA is estimated to stay in your body, minimally, for like 2 weeks | 19:13 |
| KREYREN[m] | assuming a scenario in which the mRNA woudn't be gone or made some function in a body to generate unwanted viral particles or similar scenario? | 19:13 |
| LjL | minimally as in most of it is gone sooner | 19:13 |
| dendtriticcell[m | the motivation for getting the vaccine is something like 'it will protect me from pulmonary thrombosis' (a severe outcome), if so how is that people who have gotten vaccinated are dying from pulmonary thrombosis | 19:14 |
| KREYREN[m] | i also read the reports of people dieing from the vaccine which is what concerns me the most atm.. | 19:15 |
| LjL | dendtriticcell[m, because a) pulmonary thrombosis can happen for reasons other than COVID, and/or 2) the protection offered is very admittedly not 100%, so yes, you could still get COVID and its consequences | 19:15 |
| KREYREN[m] | to me just that happening doesn't make me too confident that gov understand the risks well enough | 19:16 |
| dendtriticcell[m | but look at the stats as a percentage of the vaccinated population, it's pretty low | 19:16 |
| finely[m] | <KREYREN[m] "LjL: i don't question the effect"> The mRNA vaccines are incredibly safe. We know COVID kills and disables huge numbers of people. The risks and benefits of the vaccines seem clear to me. | 19:17 |
| KREYREN[m] | Incredible safe according to what? We don't have the data on long-term use | 19:17 |
| KREYREN[m] | (that i know of at least.) | 19:18 |
| dendtriticcell[m | there are clearly people on both sides of the debate who are fully invested in their chosen narrative, unfortunately neither side is entirely truthful. | 19:18 |
| dendtriticcell[m | side a) vaccine is great, you need it, it will improve your outcomes, with minimal risk, totally worth it | 19:18 |
| dendtriticcell[m | side b) vaccine not needed, avoid, will worsen outcomes, much risk, not worth it | 19:18 |
| LjL | yeah scientists don't have crystal balls, who'd have guessed. but we have *logical reasons* to think there is no big concern of long-term effects | 19:18 |
| KREYREN[m] | LjL: elaborate on the logical reasons? | 19:18 |
| pwr22 | LjL meoww: I'm a stealth matrix user (assuming I'm still pwr22 or Peter_R?) 😛 | 19:19 |
| de-facto | idk guys, just look at the countries that went ahead with vaccinations, such as Israel or UK and at their numbers of cases and fatalities, imho that already is quite a clear statement pro vaccination, it safes a lot of lifes | 19:19 |
| LjL | because the mRNA goes away quickly, the S-proteins also go away quickly, and the antibodies that get created, well hopefully they don't do anything bad, but even in the worst case, they're the same antibodies you'd get when you get COVID - and yes i'm saying "when" because if you wait 20 years before getting the vaccine, rest assured you will get COVID in the meanwhile | 19:19 |
| dendtriticcell[m | side a) relies on social media/tech oligarchy to suppress dissent | 19:19 |
| dendtriticcell[m | side b) has tons of nonsensical disinfo/fake psyop unrelated garbage | 19:19 |
| pwr22 | KREYREN: do you happen to identify as having an anxiety disorder? No worries if so | 19:19 |
| LjL | pwr22, you are pwr 22 (space inserted so it doesn't turn into Peter) | 19:19 |
| pwr22 | Ah ok | 19:19 |
| KREYREN[m] | Peter: i am not aware of that and i never had concerns about non mRNA vaccines .. the anxiety mainly comes from me being in a family of doctors and them argueing whether i should get it | 19:20 |
| LjL | dendtriticcell[m, when you say that the real effectiveness of the vaccine is 0.3%, how does that put you anywhere but on side b? | 19:20 |
| KREYREN[m] | while mostly agreeing that i should | 19:20 |
| pwr22 | Ah ok | 19:20 |
| finely[m] | <dendtriticcell[m "you should question it's effecti"> The JJ vaccine is not 0.8% effective against severe COVID. JJs past sociopathic behaviour make fertile ground for conspiracy theories though. | 19:21 |
| pwr22 | All I can suggest then is maybe telling yourself "I trust the overall medical community to assess things overall and they say I should take it, so i will" | 19:21 |
| dendtriticcell[m | <LjL "dendtriticcell, when you say tha"> it's 0.8% as published in the most prestigious medical journal, the lancet. just going back the facts | 19:21 |
| pwr22 | For reference I come from medically based family too which is why I know way too much about some things 😛 | 19:21 |
| dendtriticcell[m | does anyone here know the difference between relative risk reduction and absolute risk reduction? | 19:21 |
| LjL | finely[m], the paper he posted purports to suggest that even BNT and other vaccines have minimal efficacy, if measured "right" by ARR instead of RRR, not just J&J: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(21)00069-0/fulltext | 19:21 |
| LjL | finely[m], please by all means get into the maths of that because i'm not much of a maths person | 19:22 |
| pwr22 | For reference all my medical progressional family members also got vaccines as soon as they could, which was much earlier than me | 19:22 |
| pwr22 | dendtriticcell: I couldn't make much sense of that paper or it's logic, I'll take another look later but I have to go now | 19:22 |
| pwr22 | My gut feeling is it's basically shitty science but I'll give it another proper read through later | 19:23 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: any chance you could take a look? | 19:23 |
| de-facto | pwr22, at what exactly? | 19:23 |
| pwr22 | dendtriticcell: not everything in a medical journal is black and white, nor do they even agree | 19:24 |
| pwr22 | Consistently I mean | 19:24 |
| pwr22 | https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(21)00069-0/fulltext | 19:24 |
| pwr22 | This thing | 19:24 |
| KREYREN[m] | also i am concerned abotu th | 19:25 |
| KREYREN[m] | ignore that^ | 19:25 |
| de-facto | i guess that ARU = cases / unvaccinated ; ARV = cases / vaccinated ; VE = RRR = 1 - RR = 1 - ARV / ARU = (ARU - ARV) / ARU = ARR / ARU as relative quantity insensitive to background incidence while NNV = 1 / ARR = 1 / (ARU - ARV) is sensitive to background incidence | 19:25 |
| dendtriticcell[m | <pwr22 "dendtriticcell: I couldn't make "> vaccine: | 19:26 |
| LjL | de-facto, so if background incidence is very low at any given point, maybe because there is not a spike at that point, then the vaccine efficacy appears artificially low if you measure background incidence at that point? | 19:26 |
| de-facto | so i dont really get the point of absolute values, i would be interested into knowing by how much my risk for COVID is reduced relative to the risk without vaccination (hence the normal vaccine efficacy we always use) | 19:26 |
| LjL | because, like, if you take Czechia again, 16% already having been infected strongly indicates that if you don't do anything, everyone will get infected over time | 19:26 |
| * KREYREN[m] remembers watching a documentary on Katalin Kariko where she said something that concerned him but can't find it atm | 19:28 | |
| de-facto | i dont get it, if studies are made with double blind, one verum and one placebo arm, the statements is only relative between those two arms, yet location and time is the same for both | 19:28 |
| dendtriticcell[m | vaccine: experimental event rate (1% risk) | 19:28 |
| dendtriticcell[m | placebo: control even rate (2% risk) | 19:28 |
| dendtriticcell[m | * vaccine: experimental event rate (1% risk) | 19:28 |
| dendtriticcell[m | placebo: control event rate (2% risk) | 19:28 |
| de-facto | that makes sense imho, a relative statement between those two groups (both exposed to the same conditions) | 19:29 |
| * KREYREN[m] found the documentary https://youtu.be/b3hWEC553sU and is trying to find the specific time | 19:29 | |
| finely[m] | <KREYREN[m] "finely: i am concerned about the"> The advice I have heard is the clotting can begin 4-5 days after the vaccine, up to 4 weeks. The last half of this podcast has an interview with an expert, Dr Tim Brighton. | 19:29 |
| dendtriticcell[m | speaking of placebo arm, they unblinded trial participants, because refusing them a medical intervention during a pandemic would be inhumane, so that destroys the long term trial data. | 19:30 |
| de-facto | why would i make absolute statements (hence only valid in that one specific context where those numbers were collected)? | 19:30 |
| de-facto | i dont get their point there, relative statements allow to apply those relative risk ratios on any given other scenario, hence it makes *much* more sense to measure such effects relative to a placebo group (control group) | 19:31 |
| LjL | dendtriticcell[m, there is a 2% risk *in that period of time* though, but again, look at Czechia (or other countries with high incidence), and that goes to 16% and, reasonably, will keep growing unless we use vaccines. while on the other hand, we can be hopeful that if we are able to re-vaccinate people once the effect wanes out, the other number stays at 1% | 19:31 |
| finely[m] | <KREYREN[m] "also fam has an ongoing argument"> That is not a risk factor for this clotting disorder. | 19:31 |
| KREYREN[m] | it's a factor for my anxiety combined with shady practices of pfyzer/moderna/J&J and current issues of AZ | 19:32 |
| finely[m] | > <@dendtriticcell:matrix.org> not a single person answered "what are the severe symptoms the vaccine is alleging to offer protection from" ..you would think someone would know this key piece of information | 19:32 |
| finely[m] | > | 19:32 |
| finely[m] | Death. Irreversible damage to any organ of the body. Stroke. ect. | 19:32 |
| LjL | KREYREN[m], i do not doubt that pharma companies have acted shadily (and AZ has been just ridiculous really), but the fact remains that the vast majority of people who got any type of vaccines have not died, like to a risk ratio where doing pretty much anything else is at least as risky | 19:33 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Chile: +8245 cases (now 1.4 million), +98 deaths (now 29696) since 20 hours ago — Luxembourg: +94 cases (now 70182) since 23 hours ago — Nebraska, United States: +83 cases (now 223517) since a day ago — Montenegro: +41 cases (now 99758), +4 deaths (now 1591) since a day ago | 19:34 |
| de-facto | example: if i know for a given period of time that without vaccination a certain percentage of people get infected with covid for a given group (attack rate unvaccinated = cases / unvaccinated) i would like to know by how much that would have been reduced if they would have been vaccinated (attack rate vaccinated = cases / vaccinated) | 19:36 |
| de-facto | the relative ratio between those two RR = ARV / ARU gives me the reduction of symptomatic COVID that is achieved by vaccinating people (relative to not vaccinating them) | 19:37 |
| LjL | yeah, that's kind of my understanding too. i'm curious what absolute risk ratio is telling me, since... isn't it only applicable to whatever background rate it was measured with, which will almost certainly not match the rate in my country at a given period of time, except by chance? | 19:37 |
| dendtriticcell[m | <finely[m] "> <@dendtriticcell:matrix.org> n"> sounds good, but the clinical trials did not test for 'reduction in all-cause mortality' so any such claim would not be backed by data. | 19:38 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Il Presidente Draghi alla cerimonia per il 207° Annuale di Fondazione dell’Arma dei Carabinieri ( https://www.governo.it/it/articolo/il-presidente-draghi-alla-cerimonia-il-207-annuale-di-fondazione-dell-arma-dei-carabinieri ) | 19:38 | |
| de-facto | example if for group size of 100 people i would get 1 case in vaccinated group and 20 cases in unvaccinated group it would mean RR = 1 / 20 ~ 5% and that would give a vaccine efficacy VE = 1 - RR = 100% - 5% = 95% | 19:39 |
| LjL | dendtriticcell[m, reduction in all-cause mortality would be barely statistically significant in a trial that only lasts some months. if we wanted that standard of evidence we'd have to wait for vaccines for much longer. | 19:39 |
| LjL | i am pretty content with the standard of looking at how many people get symptomatic COVID, and how often that leads to hospitalization and death, vs the rather minimal risk of hospitalization and death from vaccines | 19:40 |
| KREYREN[m] | hm x.x i guess i am not as anxious about taking the pfyzer/biontech covid-19 vaccine then.. | 19:40 |
| LjL | Pfizer | 19:40 |
| de-facto | so that would allow me to predict, for any given number of attack rate (infections per people) to predict exactly how many cases could be prevented by vaccination (given it would be the same variant of course) | 19:40 |
| KREYREN[m] | PFIZER! | 19:40 |
| KREYREN[m] | such a painful thing to write/say for a czech | 19:40 |
| finely[m] | <dendtriticcell[m "the motivation for getting the v"> Scientists are not wizards. They developed many vaccines and tested them. We were unlucky that a few of the vaccines had severe side effects so rare they slipped through the accelerated clinical trials. We caught them once more people had those vaccines administered and now understand how to test and treat this VERY RARE problem. In a perfect world we would only use the vaccines shown to | 19:41 |
| finely[m] | be super safe, but we have shortages and an incredibly dangerous and deadly pandemic, so it make sense for many people to still have a JJ or AZ shot. | 19:41 |
| * KREYREN[m] would argue scientists being the closest thing to real wizards we have | 19:41 | |
| KREYREN[m] | How trustworthy it is to trust pfizer/biontech covid-19 vaccine to protect agains variants of SARS-CoV-2 ? | 19:42 |
| KREYREN[m] | they seems to say that it protects agains it? but i can't find anything proving that | 19:42 |
| de-facto | it is not a question about how trustworthy it is, its always a probability they provide you | 19:42 |
| KREYREN[m] | x.x | 19:43 |
| de-facto | it only gives you an expectation value, a prediction on the level of individuals is not really possible, only for large groups or populations | 19:43 |
| finely[m] | <KREYREN[m] "Incredible safe according to wha"> 40+ year of research on mRNA techniques and millions of doses administered. | 19:43 |
| dendtriticcell[m | "The BMJ asked Moderna, Pfizer, and Janssen (Johnson and Johnson) what proportion of trial participants were now formally unblinded, and how many originally allocated to placebo have now received a vaccine. Pfizer declined to say, but Moderna announced that “as of April 13, all placebo participants have been offered the Moderna covid-19 vaccine and 98% of those have received the vaccine.”2 In other words, the trial is unblinded, | 19:44 |
| dendtriticcell[m | and the placebo group no longer exists." https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1244 | 19:44 |
| de-facto | maybe try to see it like this: its the best protection avaliable you can get right now, but there never will be any guarantee (at any time) its all about probabilities, the most likely outcomes for majorities, minorities always can differ from that | 19:44 |
| KREYREN[m] | finely: ye was watching the bloomberg thing didn't know that they did clinical trials for it in 90s but it's aparently using the uri-something instead of the currently used lacto-something ? | 19:45 |
| de-facto | well but the efficacy data was collected *before* unblinding that trial there | 19:45 |
| finely[m] | > <@dendtriticcell:matrix.org> there are clearly people on both sides of the debate who are fully invested in their chosen narrative, unfortunately neither side is entirely truthful. | 19:45 |
| finely[m] | > side a) vaccine is great, you need it, it will improve your outcomes, with minimal risk, totally worth it | 19:45 |
| finely[m] | > side b) vaccine not needed, avoid, will worsen outcomes, much risk, not worth it | 19:45 |
| finely[m] | Science and reality do not give a fuck about narratives. | 19:45 |
| KREYREN[m] | dendtriticcell: ye that kind of behavior from pfizer always concerns me.. it makes me feel like i am their experiment for data | 19:45 |
| de-facto | ofc at some point it would be unethical to not tell people in the placebo group that they dont have any protection at all | 19:46 |
| de-facto | hence they have to do the right thing and at some point tell them, offer them protection aswell | 19:46 |
| finely[m] | > <@dendtriticcell:matrix.org> side a) relies on social media/tech oligarchy to suppress dissent | 19:47 |
| finely[m] | > side b) has tons of nonsensical disinfo/fake psyop unrelated garbage | 19:47 |
| finely[m] | Bothsiderism is bullshit. | 19:47 |
| de-facto | KREYREN[m], dont try to focus too much on Pfizer as a company, maybe try to look at the people that received the vaccine and how it turned out for them (e.g. Israel) | 19:47 |
| KREYREN[m] | %cases israel | 19:48 |
| dendtriticcell[m | <de-facto "maybe try to see it like this: i"> if you go by absolute risk reduction, which is a more realistic metric, the purported benefits are so small that they fall within the margin of error, which is +-5% | 19:48 |
| Brainstorm | KREYREN[m]: In Israel, there have been 839532 confirmed cases (9.1% of the population) and 6416 deaths (0.8% of cases) as of 20 hours ago. 14.7 million tests were performed (5.7% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.2% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 0.8% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Israel for time series data. | 19:48 |
| de-facto | dendtriticcell[m, why is absolute risk reduction the more realistic metric, in what sense? | 19:49 |
| KREYREN[m] | de-facto: israel seems to have sharp incline with slow include since 4Mar ? | 19:49 |
| de-facto | i think the metric should be: by how much is my risk of getting COVID reduced *relative* to the alternative, without the vaccine | 19:49 |
| de-facto | KREYREN[m], https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/israel/ | 19:50 |
| finely[m] | <LjL "finely, please by all means get "> I haven't seen the models, but they must include risk of catching COVID, risk of clotting from AZ, risk of severe COVID, age, etc. | 19:50 |
| de-facto | KREYREN[m], it looks like COVID is almost a non-issue for Israel anymore, that really makes a lot of hope imho | 19:50 |
| KREYREN[m] | <de-facto "KREYREN, it looks like COVID is "> i guess O.o | 19:51 |
| * finely[m] < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/7a8fa274f325e988d41aa130884db2ea031e5072/message.txt > | 19:51 | |
| KREYREN[m] | <de-facto "KREYREN, it looks like COVID is "> i am not israeli though | 19:53 |
| * dendtriticcell[m < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/a195990145c06eb2d5e27de45d627cf71ba97d16/message.txt > | 19:53 | |
| dendtriticcell[m | <finely[m] "> <@dendtriticcell:matrix.org> v"> the terrible small study is the pfizer clinical trial, which is based on 7 people getting covid | 19:53 |
| de-facto | KREYREN[m], yeah i just meant it as example of the effect for a vaccination campaign on COVID | 19:54 |
| KREYREN[m] | right >.> | 19:54 |
| * KREYREN[m] feels like sully asking co-pilot "any idea" and him answering "not really" as the aircraft is about to hit the water | 19:55 | |
| KREYREN[m] | any rational question i should be asking prior to taking the vaccine? | 19:55 |
| de-facto | dendtriticcell[m, yeah but that is not a very useful metric, if i know that half of the infections were prevented by receiving the vaccine that is a much more useful statement because it can be applied to other situations more easily | 19:56 |
| LjL | can you please not quote multiple lines of other people's statements? it gets real ugly over here | 19:56 |
| LjL | i can barely follow this | 19:56 |
| de-facto | e.g. given a certain attack rate, it would allow to say how many cases would have been prevented by vaccination | 19:56 |
| de-facto | (all assuming the VE is the same, ofc it changes with mutants etc) | 19:57 |
| LjL | KREYREN[m], when you go "I'm not Israeli", you sound like you won't accept *any* evidence that things are good with the vaccine except after getting it and realizing you're fine and your country all getting it and being fine. but you know, that won't happen until it happens. until YOU make it happen. | 19:57 |
| LjL | "it worked wonderfully in Slovakia" "But I'm in Czechia" is not a sensible rebuttal | 19:57 |
| KREYREN[m] | slovakia is currently mostly controlled by mafia that is doing it's best to undermine democracy through any means including killing news redactors in daylight... So the data from slovakia are kinda hard to trust at times >.> | 19:58 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Zambia: +988 cases (now 98376), +9 deaths (now 1297) since 20 hours ago — Aruba: +15 cases (now 11033) since 20 hours ago — Comoros: +4 cases (now 3886) since a day ago — Isle of Man: +2 cases (now 1597) since 22 hours ago | 19:59 |
| KREYREN[m] | LjL: why isn't it sensible to question the difference inbetween czech and israeli when it comes to the vaccine? | 20:00 |
| KREYREN[m] | like yes both are humans.. but different genetics no? | 20:00 |
| LjL | KREYREN[m], it can be sensible if you have specific difference and specific aspects in mind | 20:00 |
| LjL | oh come on | 20:00 |
| LjL | this is getting ridiculous | 20:00 |
| LjL | get the vaccine, or don't | 20:00 |
| LjL | i'm done for today, i should be getting some sun or something | 20:01 |
| LjL | you're grasping at straws and seem to be genuinely thinking the straws are good to grasp at | 20:01 |
| LjL | i could show you the sharp decline of cases in Italy but surely we're also a different race and controlled by mafia | 20:02 |
| LjL | give me and yourself a break | 20:02 |
| KREYREN[m] | like there are things like people with darker color of skin having less melanin? (i think) compared to lighter color.. to me things alike are a variable that could influence the end result | 20:03 |
| KREYREN[m] | <LjL "you're grasping at straws and se"> if i grasp a straw that might make me reconsider getting the vaccine bcs it showed that i missed something very important and taking vaccine would be a huge mistake then yes.. | 20:03 |
| LjL | everyone is different. you clearly won't be happy until it's rigorously demonstrated, over a large number of individuals, and over 20 years or so, that people *identical to you* are actually protected by the vaccine at 95% efficacy | 20:04 |
| LjL | that is impossible. it is not a reasonable standard. if that's what you require, then don't get the vaccine. | 20:05 |
| de-facto | so many vaccines have been given, taking one of those that were given to many for longer times already gives you the reassurance that it went just fine for all those others, and that it will be a "supported case" in the future e.g. sitting in one boat with a large group of other people | 20:06 |
| KREYREN[m] | would agree, but i wouldn't have these concerns if the clinical trials were required to take place in my area to reduce a risk of unknown genetics causing unknown effect >.> | 20:06 |
| KREYREN[m] | since now they just place the clinical trials anywhere on the world as they see fit and call it highly effective | 20:06 |
| LjL | which seems a pretty reasonable thing to do | 20:07 |
| de-facto | look in medicine it is impossible to give you a 100% guarantee for anything, its the nature of medicine itself, but so far we have not seen any genetic risk factors for vaccination | 20:07 |
| LjL | and i think you have some guts to say that you feel you're being experimented on *because* the people who WERE actually experimented on in the trials are being given the vaccine now even if they were originally in the placebo arm | 20:08 |
| LjL | instead you'd want them to be unvaccinated for 20 years to see how their life outcomes differ from the vaccinated ones | 20:08 |
| LjL | i'm losing my sympathy for your concerns quite honestly | 20:08 |
| de-facto | you see, those clinical trials are not easy to do, for example enough COVID cases are required, because its hard to accumulate enough breakthrough cases in the vaccinated group | 20:10 |
| de-facto | ofc depending on the variant of mutation currently circulating efficacy numbers are not directly comparable | 20:10 |
| de-facto | but every country got its own agency or department for medical things like vaccinations etc, and they are keeping a very close eye on all unwanted sideeffects | 20:11 |
| KREYREN[m] | LjL: i feel that way when they do something shady which is what influences my decision making on the vaccine atm | 20:11 |
| de-facto | that data is public and they watch with eagles eyes for any signals that may be raised in the vaccinated group, so you can be assured they are monitoring the ongoing vaccination campaign quite closely, also in your country and ethnic group | 20:12 |
| KREYREN[m] | Like based on the public statements and the history of those companies i would think that they woudn't be worried about selling snake water even though they are under strict regulations.. | 20:12 |
| KREYREN[m] | And what J&J was apparently doing with their vaccine | 20:12 |
| de-facto | so far i have not heard of any risk originating by race or such | 20:12 |
| de-facto | forget about the companies, its irrelevant | 20:12 |
| de-facto | what really counts is how the people receiving the vaccine react to it | 20:13 |
| finely[m] | <dendtriticcell[m "sounds good, but the clinical tr"> They didn't need to. The people dying because they couldn't breath was obvious enough. Along with the blood work showing the rampaging viral infection. | 20:13 |
| KREYREN[m] | i guess >.> i am less nervous about the vaccine after convo here but still worried | 20:14 |
| de-facto | e.g. talking about Pfizer, just as one example, did you know that the vaccine itself was developed in Mainz/Germany by BioNTech and they are using the lipid nano particles from Acuitas (Canada)? | 20:15 |
| KREYREN[m] | yes | 20:15 |
| KREYREN[m] | didn't know that the lipid particles were nano and the acuitas though | 20:15 |
| de-facto | many of which was based on publicly funded university research | 20:15 |
| KREYREN[m] | i know.. and biontech employs the person who invented mRNA so it seems that they know what they are doing and even took the vaccine themselves while being in risk group and are still aliv e | 20:16 |
| KREYREN[m] | i got concerned about biden breaking his leg and then falling on the stairs on the aircraft after taking the vaccine though | 20:17 |
| de-facto | they are doing research on that for more than a decade already, thats why they could provide a solution so fast | 20:17 |
| dendtriticcell[m | 'the model training on the stool microbiome found enrichment of Enterococcus faecalis, a known pathobiont, as the top predictor of COVID-19 disease severity' | 20:18 |
| dendtriticcell[m | https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.05.20249061v1 | 20:18 |
| KREYREN[m] | i know i was reading through most of the research >.> Seems like a thing that could prevent aging as well.. | 20:18 |
| * de-facto quickly has to go grab some food in the supermarket | 20:18 | |
| dendtriticcell[m | your gut microbiota is the single biggest predictor of 'covid outcome severity' ...can anyone guess what would cause such an imbalance as to allow for an overgrowth of enterococcus faecalis | 20:20 |
| dendtriticcell[m | https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32430279/ | 20:20 |
| * KREYREN[m] goes on garden reconsider his life choices as he's still nervous | 20:22 | |
| dendtriticcell[m | "E. faecalis, L. buchneri and S. aureus, which we predict to be resistant according to the amino acid markers in EPSPS, are actually fairly sensitive to glyphosate" | 20:25 |
| dendtriticcell[m | https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304389420325462 | 20:25 |
| dendtriticcell[m | GMO messes up gut microbiome and makes you susceptible to opportunistic disease, who would have guessed. | 20:26 |
| finely[m] | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop | 20:26 |
| dendtriticcell[m | I mean other than the european union which banned it's use due to be carcinogenic | 20:26 |
| finely[m] | Glyphosates main harm to human is probably destroying the soil microbiome and thus lowering the nutrient density of food produced using industrial methods. | 20:28 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Algeria: +385 cases (now 130361), +7 deaths (now 3504) since 17 hours ago — Canada: +40 deaths (now 25649) since 22 hours ago | 20:36 |
| dendtriticcell[m | <KREYREN[m] "i guess >.> i am less nervous ab"> the vaccines are built with the idea that only the whole virus is harmful, and not the spike protein. The spike protein has been shown to cross the blood-brain barrier: | 20:39 |
| KREYREN[m] | dendtriticcell: i don't understand what does that mean in practice | 20:45 |
| finely[m] | You don't want to get COVID. You should get a vaccine. 🙂 | 21:01 |
| dendtriticcell[m | <KREYREN[m] "dendtriticcell: i don't understa"> https://www.salk.edu/news-release/the-novel-coronavirus-spike-protein-plays-additional-key-role-in-illness/ article for the paper | 21:10 |
| KREYREN[m] | dendtriticcell: seems credible enough, so you believe that the vaccine only protects agains the SARS-CoV-2 core not the spike proteins ? | 21:13 |
| KREYREN[m] | which seems to be linked to an increased risk of alzheimers? | 21:13 |
| dendtriticcell[m | I don't have enough info on mRNA degradation to decide if it should be somewhat concerned, or extremely concerned 😀 | 21:17 |
| de-facto | the vaccines were build upon the idea that its the spike protein itself that allows the virions to connect to the hACE2 RBD for entry to the cells, hence annoying the immune system with letting the spike protein bloom on cells surface and making it developing antibodies to the spike protein (as well as making the cellular immunity aware to kill off such cells) it blocks the entry and replication of the real pathogen SARS-CoV-2 | 21:18 |
| de-facto | at least the 1) mRNA vaccines containing recipe for s-protein 2) the adenovirus vector vaccines containing DNA plasmid recipe for the s-protein 3) the recombinant protein vaccines containing the s-protein itself | 21:19 |
| de-facto | mRNA (the recipe containing instructions to build the s-protein) is the natural way for cells to make any of its proteins, hence its natural for the cells to trash that mRNA into garbage after a few times translating it into proteins | 21:21 |
| de-facto | they try all kinds tricks to slow that process down (hence make as much s-protein as possible out of one strain of mRNA) but eventually also the vaccine mRNA ends up in the trash after a few hours to days | 21:22 |
| de-facto | it will not stay or integrate or anything like that, its gone after a few days and the cells blooming with s-protein probably will be killed pretty soon also | 21:23 |
| de-facto | so only the immunogenic fingerprint of the s-protein should be stay long term (the desired immunity) | 21:23 |
| de-facto | the knowledge that its the s-protein that should be targeted with the vaccines (as it puts the pathogen into a tight spot, evading immunity may also mean less binding to ACE2 hence less replication) as already observed by other corona viruses (corona = crown of spikes) allowed for such an efficient vaccine development | 21:26 |
| de-facto | basically they could use the decades of development for 1) mRNA platform technology 2) Adenovirus vectors (e.g. MERS-CoV vaccine was template for AZ) and the published sequence from Wuhan at begin of 2020 to separete the s-protein sequence, optimize it (with some stabilizing proline replacements) and codon optimize it for more efficient translation (and folding), put prefix sequence in front of it (that increases translation frequency) and some | 21:29 |
| de-facto | trailing sequence (that allows for more often translation before landing in trash) | 21:29 |
| de-facto | thats the very simple explanation, ofc its much more complicated than just that | 21:29 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Ethiopia: +347 cases (now 272632), +8 deaths (now 4193) since a day ago — Eritrea: +282 cases (now 4427) since a day ago — Lebanon: +388 cases (now 541232), +11 deaths (now 7752) since 20 hours ago — France: +29 deaths (now 109907) since 23 hours ago | 21:38 |
| ReGiStRaS | Are there any updated information on weather which vaccine types (mRNA, Viral Vector or Inactivated Virus) has the highest efficacy in being immune to B1617 variant? | 21:38 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Comunicato stampa del Consiglio dei Ministri n. 22 ( https://www.governo.it/it/articolo/comunicato-stampa-del-consiglio-dei-ministri-n-22/17019 ) | 21:43 | |
| de-facto | i think the B.1.617.2 is more of a fitness advantage VoC than one with advanced evasive capabilities, e.g. it looks like its more fit than B.1.1.7 even (was it like 150%-200%) but not as immuno-evasive as B.1.351 or such (idk exactly anymore but was its neutralization resistance like 2x of B.1.1,7, if so that would be 1/5 of B.1.351) | 21:46 |
| de-facto | so i would not be as concerned with vaccine evasion than more like with transmission and viral load of carriers | 21:46 |
| de-facto | but i am really not sure about above numbers, i pulled them out of my head, i vaguely remember having read about them somewhere, so take that with a big grain of salt | 21:48 |
| finely[m] | From the Salk article. | 22:01 |
| finely[m] | "Now, a major new study shows that the virus spike proteins (which behave very differently than those safely encoded by vaccines." | 22:01 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for N. Cyprus: +42 cases (now 7387) since 2 days ago — Guam: +11 cases (now 8204) since a day ago — Djibouti: +10 cases (now 11554) since a day ago — Chad: +3 cases (now 4938), +1 deaths (now 174) since a day ago | 22:03 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Canada: +42 deaths (now 25653) since 23 hours ago | 22:40 |
| LjL | finely[m], well, that part for sure is written to assuage people with vaccine fears who come across the article, but i'd say it's still... interesting | 23:16 |
| meoww | LjL: so if you had no other choice, would you get Sinovac or others from there ? | 23:21 |
| LjL | meoww, if i had no other choice i'd research them more than i have so far, which admittedly is not very much | 23:21 |
| meoww | that might be a repeat question, sorry if so | 23:22 |
| LjL | meoww, no, it's really just that while i've heard the efficacy of Sinovac is low, i've focused my reading on vaccines that are available here, so i don't know many solid hard facts about Sinovac. 50% would be better than nothing in the absence of bad side effects... but i would like to see studies and trials on it from countries that are not China, honestly | 23:34 |
| pwr22 | de-facto LjL: I've just got my head around that ARR/RRR article from earlier. Yeah it a bit BS | 23:40 |
| pwr22 | Basically in the ARR, which is a difference rather than a ratio, if the covid attack rate in an unvaccinated population was 50% then the ARR would be max 50% even if it prevented all cases | 23:41 |
| pwr22 | In the Whereas the RRR would be 100% | 23:41 |
| LjL | pwr22, i also had a chat about it with someone and i'm afraid i still don't fully understand ARR but i caught some pretty bullshit parts anyway | 23:41 |
| pwr22 | And IMO expressing the ARR as a percentage is misleading since people would expect the max efficacy to be 100% | 23:42 |
| LjL | pwr22, yeah and the main bullshitty thing about the article is that while it does passingly mention that the ARR will vary with varying prevalence, it still makes a "hard number comparison" of the vaccines' ARR | 23:42 |
| LjL | which is nonsense since their trials took places in different places at different times | 23:42 |
| pwr22 | Yeah which you can't do | 23:42 |
| pwr22 | Because the unvaccine population rate is required | 23:43 |
| LjL | and which is why they use RRR, because ARR is only relevant to a given situation, it's not generalizable | 23:43 |
| pwr22 | Yeah | 23:43 |
| LjL | and the thing it says about Israel is kind of surreal | 23:43 |
| LjL | i'll quote myself | 23:43 |
| pwr22 | It's an attempt to make the numbers smaller | 23:43 |
| LjL | "oh you need to vaccinate a ton of people to prevent further infections, because you have already vaccinated most people, so you don't really have infections" | 23:44 |
| de-facto | i mean giving relative numbers between both arms of a double blinded study, verum vs placebo, is the closest thing possible to estimating the pure effect of the vaccination itself, because both arms were exposed to the same conditions (population, variants, timeframe, incidence etc) | 23:44 |
| LjL | they're saying that the number of people who need to be vaccinated in Israel to prevent one further case of COVID is almost twice the one shown in the Pfizer trial, and this is representative of "real-life" | 23:44 |
| LjL | except it's representative of a country where incidence had been brought drastically down thanks to... the vaccine | 23:45 |
| LjL | de-facto, yes, that doesn't mean ARR and NNV aren't useless, but that paper is using them in the wrong context and in the wrong ways. subtly, because it does say things like "The explanation lies in the combination of vaccine efficacy and different background risks of COVID-19 across studies" (yeah, so why present those numbers as a direct comparison?) | 23:46 |
| LjL | are* useless | 23:46 |
| LjL | it tries to make the reader conclude that the "real" efficacy is less than 2% while saying things subtly enough to create plausible deniability that they are doing that | 23:47 |
| LjL | so, feh | 23:47 |
| de-facto | yeah honestly i did not get the point of that article (its not even a paper!) there | 23:50 |
| de-facto | they are just like bla bla but dont come to a really concise conclusion because they know themselves they dont have a really clear point to make | 23:51 |
| pwr22 | Seems like an attempt to be contrarian | 23:51 |
| de-facto | so i am not sure what their motivation is if they are not able to make a clear new contribution | 23:51 |
| pwr22 | It's not just an article but it doesn't even follow a coherent structure as a document either | 23:51 |
| LjL | well the point they are making, which is however i suspect not the point they want to get across, is that individual countries and realities should look at the ARR as well for their local decisions, which is reasonable | 23:52 |
| pwr22 | No summary, conclusion, abstract | 23:52 |
| LjL | but aside from that point, most of the article is written so as to make it look like RRR is the "wrong" way to assess and compare vaccines | 23:52 |
| de-facto | how would countries even know the absolute number of cases? | 23:52 |
| LjL | by counting them? | 23:52 |
| de-facto | most of the cases are unknown, not tested etc | 23:52 |
| pwr22 | LjL: I would say if considering case numbers together with percentage of population vaccinated gives you a pretty clear idea how well things are doing etc | 23:53 |
| de-facto | but if they use relative numbers, and can assume they test more or less the same amount of real cases, they can predict by how much vaccination reduces those | 23:53 |
| pwr22 | The ARR is just a more complex instrument for the same analysis | 23:53 |
| LjL | well, then the good news is that most of the cases might be unknown and not tested in the vaccine trials too, because they only looked at people who went "hey look at me, i got symptoms" :P | 23:53 |
| de-facto | yeah endpoints were symptomatic | 23:53 |
| pwr22 | Which reminds me, iirc UK is looking concerning right now | 23:53 |
| LjL | yeah | 23:54 |
| pwr22 | We seem to be on exponential tend and Boris is due to tell everyone to go wild on the 17th | 23:54 |
| pwr22 | I kind of feel like we wouldn't have this level of growth if the indian variant didn't significantly not give a shit about the vaccine | 23:55 |
| LjL | i feel the same | 23:55 |
| LjL | and i feel we'll eventually see that at the population level, AZ was a mistake | 23:55 |
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