libera/##covid-19/ Sunday, 2021-06-06

de-facto	just always good to have a rough picture about what to expect	00:00
de-facto	not sure if it may be more for Moderna than for Pfizer, some said that, but maybe that is just too subjective	00:01
de-facto	will be slightly different for everyone, hence hard to directly compare since its hard to measure that with a "metric" or such	00:02
dTal	LjL you got vaxxed today??	00:18
dTal	Holy shit what a coincidence	00:18
dTal	My experience was much smoother	00:19
dTal	I arrived half an hour before my appointed time; there were two people outside the building you had to speak to first - the first basically asked you like 3 screening questions that would send you away if you had any covid symptoms, and the second asked you if it was your first or second jab and directed you through the doors where a man gave me a "take a number" ticket	00:21
dTal	There was a short queue, and then I was in a room with some people behind tables who confirmed my name and appointment and gave me a card with my name, DOB/ NHS number, and allotted vaccine (Pfizer, yay!) and told me to take a seat in one of the many well-spaced chairs; a man at the other door called out numbers	00:23
dTal	my number was called in well under 10 minutes, and I gave him my little take-a-number chitty and chatted with him for a minute about my mask - then I was shown through the door into a large indoor space and to a little booth with a nurse who took my card	00:25
dTal	she asked a few clarifying questions about my doctor's registration, whether I was allergic to anything, and which arm I wanted it in, and honestly before I could blink she'd done it, no ceremony	00:26
dTal	then I was to follow the arrows on the floor to the far side of the big room, next to the open double-doors, where I was again told to sit in a chair and wait for 15 minutes to make sure I didn't melt or explode or develop superpowers from the jab	00:27
dTal	and then that was it, out the doors into the sunshine, whole thing probably took less than 20 minutes	00:28
dTal	0 paperwork	00:28
dTal	and they ignored my appointment time, they just stuck me right in the queue as soon as I arrived	00:29
dTal	I said "I'm here a little early" and they said "great, you'll get jabbed early" :p	00:30
de-facto	sounds like quite a smooth experience	00:32
dTal	That was 12 hours ago - I would say my arm doesn't hurt at all but I just took the bandage off and it did twinge as I brushed it	00:32
de-facto	did they register you with your electronic id or such?	00:33
dTal	and now it aches, haha	00:33
dTal	register? nah no proof of ID or anything	00:33
dTal	just turning up and saying who you are was enough	00:33
de-facto	so you could have been anyone and they did just checked with their list?	00:33
dTal	yup	00:33
ublx	they might have had a list of names and times	00:34
dTal	well, anyone who knew about another person's vaccine appointment, and got there earlier than them	00:34
ublx	did at mine, anyway	00:34
dTal	ublx: they absolutely did of course	00:34
de-facto	no electronic insurance card registration or anything?	00:34
dTal	nupe	00:34
ublx	it's the UK	00:35
ublx	the Queue is sacred	00:35
de-facto	quite interesting, but you got a vaccination sticker in your passport booklet?	00:35
dTal	my what now?	00:35
LjL	i talked about this with my dad earlier tonight, when i ranted about the stupid bureaucracy of this all, and we ended up talking about IDs, views on IDs, and the fact Schengen is about to be "reformed" with something that someone politically charged called "internal passports" (which likely aren't, but still, shared biometric shit that doesn't sound enticing)	00:35
dTal	mate I got a shot in the arm and a brochure	00:35
dTal	that's it	00:35
LjL	and i pointed out to him that ID documents were mostly an offshot of authoritarian regimes in the 20th century, and that Brits typically still shun the very concept of an ID, and they vote and do stuff without IDs	00:35
de-facto	wow, so no document confirming you got shot in the arm?	00:36
LjL	and he's like "i know but i find it hard to believe"	00:36
LjL	well maybe we should start believing	00:36
dTal	de-facto, they store it electronically	00:36
de-facto	ah ok so they did that at least	00:36
de-facto	makes sense	00:36
LjL	except he could have been someone else and then someone else would have been marked as vaccinated!	00:36
dTal	LjL: it's kind of amazing even to me as a brit, but you know it gives me warm fuzzies	00:36
LjL	except it doesn't happen because people aren't complete idiots if you don't give them the impression they're being treated as such	00:37
dTal	LjL: could have - but yeah, who the heck would do that	00:37
dTal	and they'd find out in about 10 minutes when the real person shows up	00:37
LjL	with your permission i'll copypaste this section of the chat to an email to my parents	00:37
dTal	yeah sure	00:37
de-facto	for me they controlled 1) entry on the guest list 2) ID on registering 3) electronic insurance card	00:37
LjL	yeah that's more or less what i told him about the voting stuff	00:37
LjL	de-facto, for me they checked the healthcare card, and the QR that i had printed when i got my appointment online, and they did this... repeatedly	00:38
dTal	there's no sensible threat model here	00:38
LjL	ugh i just moved my arm in a way that made it sting	00:38
de-facto	oh yeah and the booked code indeed	00:38
de-facto	some token	00:38
LjL	still no bad soreness to speak of, but, like, the unpleasant impression of a needle still being in my arm ;(	00:38
dTal	in particular, the worst case scenario is... you accidentally vaccinate someone who was supposed to get it later? big cry	00:39
LjL	dTal, honestly, in italy that would mean many people would do that to get it before they're supposed to	00:39
dTal	except they would be caught immediately	00:39
dTal	and probably fined	00:39
LjL	dTal, since regions here are mostly responsible for healthcare, there were all sorts of subterfuges by regions and the central government could only be "DON'T DO THAT!", such as lawyers somehow getting vaccinated as a protected category	00:39
de-facto	think of the other way though, someone wants to be certified as fully vaccinated yet does not want the shot (unfortunately there are some such)	00:40
LjL	dTal, how though, if they never really identify themselves? we don't have CCTV cameras covering every single corner (just 80% or so) :P	00:40
dTal	because you'd still be in the building when the real person shows up	00:41
dTal	I guess you could cut and run	00:41
LjL	dTal, anyhow, glad you got yours, and i got mine, but bitter taste in my mouth about hearing from a bunch of people from a bunch of countries all being a bit like "wow" about how stupidly long it took me and for no good reason	00:42
LjL	it's not like my time is valuable, i don't care, although i was very anxious for about 1h40m but hey i'm used to that	00:42
LjL	but it's a big place crammed full of people some of which could have COVID	00:42
LjL	i think that's kind of an important reason to make it quick	00:42
dTal	yeah that's ridiculous	00:42
de-facto	for me it was more like the public transport for arriving there that worried me about crowded places exposing me to risks of contagion	00:43
dTal	and you could certainly add a bit more bookkeeping if you really cared, without turning 20 minutes into an hour and 20	00:43
LjL	by the way, we weren't asked any "screening questions" outside, we did have to answer "have you possibly got COVID?" type questions but... only once we were inside in the big waiting room with 1m-spaced chairs (with nowhere to write on except own legs)	00:43
dTal	oh that's a fail	00:44
de-facto	at the center itself they really managed to ensure distancing	00:44
LjL	de-facto, in that way i was lucky because the center is well within walking distance	00:44
LjL	i think distancing is mostly moot though	00:45
de-facto	that center where i went is a bit outside because its on the area for exhibition halls	00:45
dTal	I was never much in fear, there weren't more than 20-50 vaccinatees in the building at any one time, and it was mostly well distanced and all the windows and doors were open	00:45
LjL	your 2m may be better than my 1m but i think only marginally	00:45
LjL	we should get over this and realize it's airborne and just not pack people indoors	00:45
dTal	de-facto, my train journey was standing room only, that was by far the scariest part	00:46
dTal	sunny day and seaside-bound train at midday	00:46
LjL	dTal, i'm unable to tell you how many people might have been in the building, but i had about 70-80 numbers before mine in the waiting room, and that's one waiting room out of 4 they have	00:46
LjL	to be fair though it's also the biggest vaccine center in italy (so i've heard anyway)	00:46
de-facto	dTal, yeah those crowded train scenarios scare me tbh	00:46
dTal	it was so scary that I cycled home	00:46
LjL	dTal, did you buy a bike at the vaccine place	00:47
de-facto	huh? did you buy a bicycle?	00:47
LjL	:P	00:47
dTal	no I took my bike there durrr	00:47
de-facto	ah :)	00:47
dTal	my home train station is an hour's walk from where I live anyway	00:47
dTal	so it saves a lot of time	00:47
LjL	ah	00:47
LjL	that's a long walk to get to a train station	00:48
de-facto	so a bit of sports after the shot :D	00:48
LjL	my home train station is about 0.5 minutes walk from where i live :P	00:48
dTal	sounds noisy	00:48
dTal	0.5 minutes will get you from one side of the station to the other	00:48
LjL	dTal, got a lot better since they covered the tracks, but for the first few years, yep, 5.30am train wasn't fun	00:48
de-facto	honestly i would take it easy in the coming days though, just ot avoid pulse rates hence potential heart muscle inflammation etc	00:48
dTal	lol, I have no plans to take it easy	00:49
LjL	dTal, if i jumped out the window right now i'd end up on the train station's roof, and since its roof sucks, i'd conceivably get into the train station	00:49
LjL	that'd take less than 0.5 minutes	00:49
dTal	hahaha	00:49
de-facto	then you better make some plans for relaxing the next few days :)	00:50
de-facto	but yeah i have to admit i also cycled around in the city after my first shot, so yeah	00:50
LjL	being able to take the train (and other similar thing) is pretty much the one reason i'm happy i got pfizer	00:51
LjL	with AZ i'd still not risk it	00:52
de-facto	what I did not ask the doc was if i should take it easy with moving that arm or maybe even increase activity	00:52
de-facto	probably use it normally i guess?	00:52
de-facto	i guess the longer it stays in that muscle there the more immunogenic it could be?	00:53
de-facto	so maybe even less activity? (speculating)	00:53
ublx	hmm	00:53
de-facto	i used that arm quite a bit, hence it was gone after 3 days for me	00:53
LjL	don't sweat it so much, you'll get the immunity you're likely to get	00:54
LjL	although i think i'm keeping my arm just as if i had just had the shot, which is silly	00:54
ublx	if it had to be on one side or the other of normal activity, i'd go slightly more active	00:54
ublx	because reasons	00:54
de-facto	yeah thats how i did it, slightly more than normal activity but not like training or anything like that	00:54
LjL	anyway it's been 5h now and still no soreness, just this sensation that i'm being jabbed right now if i move it in certain ways	00:55
dTal	de-facto, I want to get exercise and sunshine to keep my immune system active in this crucial period	00:55
dTal	exercise helps me sleep well which is very important	00:56
de-facto	yeah i went for hikes in the sunshine but not for running or training or such	00:56
LjL	i think i will ignore de-facto'd advice and your encouraging words too, and get some booze while staring at IRC	00:56
de-facto	i guess pulse rates should not go up too much, but also some moderate physical activity could be beneficial for metabolism and against thrombosis risk etc	00:57
dTal	I don't think the vaccine is active after 12 hours in your body or they wouldn't need to refrigerate it	00:57
de-facto	you cant say that	00:57
LjL	dTal, eh your body is not the same environment as a freezer	00:57
LjL	hopefully	00:57
dTal	that... was my point?	00:58
LjL	dTal, well, it could be seen in two kind of opposite ways	00:58
dTal	de-facto, why not - heat breaks it down very readily	00:58
LjL	i think i remember reading S-proteins could still be produced in some parts of your body up to 2 weeks after getting the vaccine	00:58
LjL	sorry i don't have citation, i've been neglecting citations	00:58
dTal	yes yes which isn't to say that stuff isn't still happening	00:58
dTal	but the vaccine itself is played out	00:59
de-facto	i think it goes through some phases, first it "infects" the cells, then they will begin blooming with spikes and then all the immune system reactions start to work on that, it obviously takes up to 14 days until it comes up with something that is starting to make any difference for infections	00:59
dTal	which means it doesn't matter what you do with your arm, your cells are gonna make those spike proteins	00:59
LjL	the mRNA is mostly gone, i guess, but... well i guess i kind of missed with this is about	00:59
LjL	dTal, oh i think de-facto is kinda overthinking what he should or shouldn't do with his arm	01:00
de-facto	so its quite a longterm process and during all that time (hours, days and then weeks) it is important to stay healthy and get enough sleep etc pp	01:00
dTal	LjL, it was in the context of "spreading the vaccine around" or some such	01:00
dTal	I think it probably doesn't matter at all, but it definitely doesn't matter after the refrigeration window is over	01:00
de-facto	"best before" is not "its gone"	01:01
de-facto	it will work on there for hours to possibly days i think	01:02
LjL	okay i'll get a hammer and hit my forearm repeatedly and then i'll get an antibody test and we can see if i've got more antibodies than youse	01:02
LjL	for science	01:02
de-facto	lol better not do that and also really stay away from any alc for now	01:02
LjL	de-facto, you say that, but i've opened a ton of hits from googling "alcohol covid vaccine" yesterday and they all said 1) up to moderate alcohol consumption is okay and even known to get you better immunity with other vaccines, and 2) mostly the "no alcohol" admonition came from Russia where it became the subject of ridicule	01:04
LjL	so is there really a scientific reason to avoid alcohol aside from being convinced that it'll make for more immunity will release happy endorphines and make it happen?	01:04
de-facto	i think alc in general is cytotoxic and there are cells that are more susceptible to that, especially those very complex immune cells	01:05
dTal	did you say BETTER immunity?	01:05
dTal	hot diggity damn	01:05
dTal	it is time to party	01:06
de-facto	next reason would be to not generate free radicals, so that also could possibly harm immune system cells when consuming alcohol	01:06
de-facto	and then it is an additional metabolic weight on the liver, and the liver already might be occupied with processing those lipids as well as blooming with s-protein itself too	01:07
de-facto	so all reasons to not take alc for those few days where all those processes take place	01:07
LjL	dTal, well one they were general media articles only half-assedly citing studies, and two some of them took pains to mention that "moderate" means much less than what people think it means, and above "moderate" it does become a bad idea	01:07
de-facto	of course there are thresholds and i have no idea about those	01:08
de-facto	i just think it would not hurt to stay away from it completely for those times	01:08
de-facto	yet drinking enough water might be beneficial, not only to lower risk for thrombosis but also to ensure metabolic functions are working to their full potential	01:10
LjL	plus, i might be in excruciating pain all of a sudden and then i will want to take paracetamol!	01:10
dzho	that's the one	01:11
de-facto	i thought so too (for me, hence i bought it in advance), yet i bet you wont need it	01:11
LjL	yeah Pfizer will probably be fine first shot	01:11
dzho	unfamiliar with the dosages, I took too little paracetamol after my 2nd Moderna shot and suffered for it	01:12
de-facto	yeah so let that opportunity open if you want to take paracetamol (be it against pain or fever) hence dont drink any alc for now	01:12
LjL	dzho, how much did you take?	01:12
de-facto	i think 1g every 6h is ok for adults (up to 4g per day, more could damage the liver afaik)	01:12
LjL	i usually just take 500mg and wait and only get more if i don't get any better	01:13
LjL	de-facto, that's kind of an upper upper threshold	01:13
dzho	I think I took 2x325mg only twice, maybe three times, but should have taken them more frequently	01:13
de-facto	yeah	01:13
dzho	on an 8 hr schedule rather than a 4 hour schedule	01:13
LjL	dzho, well that's not a tiny dosage either	01:13
dzho	no	01:13
dzho	but the headache was pretty bad	01:13
LjL	people's headaches seem to react quite differently to paracetamol	01:14
dzho	my error was that I had the double-strength long-acting stuff in one medicine cabinet and normal dosage in the other, and took the normal on the schedule of the stronger dose	01:14
de-facto	actually i cant remember if i ever took paracetamol ever, maybe i should try in advance?	01:14
dzho	which of course is better than having done the other way round	01:15
LjL	de-facto, i've never taken aspirin	01:15
dzho	generally I keep no paracetamol in the house	01:15
de-facto	i bought all three, Aspirin, Paracetamol and NAC in advance, just to be prepared	01:15
ublx	what's wrong with aspirin?	01:15
LjL	dzho, definitely a lot of things are better than a paracetamol overdose	01:16
dzho	Reye's Syndrome mostly	01:16
dzho	ublx: in particular it is recommended that children and teenagers not take aspirin	01:16
LjL	ublx, nothing in particular, but i've never taken it, and i have allergies to things, so since i know i do tolerate paracetamol, as long as i can get along with paracetamol, no need to try aspirin	01:16
de-facto	dzho, very true	01:16
dzho	so it's usually ibuprofen for us, with a little aspirin here and there	01:17
LjL	ublx, but generally speaking from what i know about these drugs i'd say paracetamol might be better for one-off use, as its short-term side effect profile is better than aspirin (which like many NSAIDs can be a bit harsh on the stomach), while on the other hand long-term paracetamol use is a big no no	01:17
de-facto	usually i try to escalate dosages until the therapeutic dose, just to be sure i tolerate it fine, have no idea how i would react to paracetamol, probably just fine though	01:18
de-facto	i also did not want to take paracetamol without reason, because it also would place additional processing on the liver during it possibly also processing the LNPs and blooming with spikes	01:19
LjL	de-facto, but at the same time one could argue it's a dubious idea to try a new medication you've never used even though you have no need for it "just to see what happens" :P	01:19
de-facto	ofc if one needs to lower the fever its a good choice	01:19
de-facto	yeah	01:19
LjL	as i said before if you do need to take paracetamol, have a go at the (scant) literature about taking NAC before paracetamol to lessen effects on the liver	01:20
de-facto	i actually might think about that for 2nd shot, first is kindergarden it seems	01:21
dTal	I love this verb you're using - "blooming" with spikes	01:21
dTal	is that a medical term or just poetry?	01:21
ublx	i reserve paracetamol for fever, aspirin for anti-inflammatory, and codeine level 11 headache	01:22
de-facto	i like the idea, because its that spike protein in the cells membrane and it even looks a bit like flowers	01:22
ublx	i got the impression from reading (a while back) that aspirin had incidental health benefits that ibuprofen didn't	01:22
de-facto	hence i thought, why not calling it "a cell blooming with spikes" :D	01:22
dTal	it reminds me of algae blooms too	01:23
dTal	okay my arm definitely feels a lot more sore after I prodded it	01:25
dTal	like a bruise, now	01:25
dTal	I noticed virtually nothing all day, weird	01:26
de-facto	.title https://visual-science.com/projects/sars-cov-2/3d-model/	01:27
Brainstorm	de-facto: From visual-science.com: Coronavirus SARS-CoV-2: scientifically accurate 3D model	01:27
de-facto	i think it really looks a bit like a flower with threefold symmetry	01:27
de-facto	thats a virion of course but those spike proteins would also stick like that in the cells membrane i think	01:28
de-facto	https://www.scientificamerican.com/interactive/inside-the-coronavirus/	01:37
de-facto	.title	01:38
Brainstorm	de-facto: From www.scientificamerican.com: Inside the Coronavirus - Scientific American	01:38
de-facto	.title https://www.scientificamerican.com/interactive/inside-the-coronavirus/	01:39
Brainstorm	de-facto: From www.scientificamerican.com: Inside the Coronavirus - Scientific American	01:39
Brainstorm	de-facto: From www.scientificamerican.com: Inside the Coronavirus - Scientific American	01:39
de-facto	"Inside the Coronavirus - Scientific American"	01:40
de-facto	.title https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-i-built-a-3-d-model-of-the-coronavirus-for-scientific-american/	01:40
Brainstorm	de-facto: From www.scientificamerican.com: How I Built a 3-D Model of the Coronavirus for Scientific American - Scientific American	01:40
de-facto	"How I Built a 3-D Model of the Coronavirus for Scientific American"	01:40
dTal	so where's the download link	01:41
meoww	aspirin isn't a NSAID though	01:57
meoww	acetaminophen is fine for pain	01:57
ublx	you should edit wikipedia then because it thinks it is a NSAID	01:58
meoww	ublx: 81mg for reduced MI risk	01:58
meoww	it works on platelets as I recall, but different than say Plavix	01:58
ublx	works on platelets in a way that other NSAIDs don't *according to wikipedia	01:59
meoww	seems like aspirin is pretty old school for headaches	02:00
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meoww	with inherent risk of GI bleeds	02:02
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pwr22	LjL my vaccine experience was I turned up, said who I was and when my appointment was, stood in front of a machine to take my temp, was immediately called in, brief talking, jab, then out of there	05:52
pwr22	The whole thing couldn't have been more than 5 minutes	05:52
pwr22	They don't make you wait around after the AZ jabs it seems	05:53
pwr22	I didn't get a vaccine passport or anything	05:53
LjL-Matrix	Peter: well that is a bit objectionable, i think they should wait some time for any potential immediate and serious adverse reactions with any vaccine. the UK is going a bit too "let's just do things, who cares" for my liking, including the current thoughts of mixing and matching vaccines with or without decent studies about it first	05:54
pwr22	In the UK we don't normally make people wait after vaccines	05:55
pwr22	Unless it's more prone to allergic responses like Pfizer	05:55
LjL-Matrix	But that said, I'm collecting people who are all surprised that it took more than one hour and a half for me, while my parents are like, it took two hours for us and we thought that was admirably quick ;( this country is just depressing	05:55
pwr22	We also don't have an official ID or anything so that can't ask for one. Right now I have no valid IDs anymore	05:56
pwr22	Passport expired in April	05:56
pwr22	The head was done by a nurse too, as is usual here	05:57
LjL-Matrix	Meanwhile here my dad thinks it's sort of reasonable to add fingerprints, DNA and whatnot to ID because "we have to catch up with the forging and tricks"	05:57
pwr22	Doctors don't do vaccines or blood tests and stuff here	05:57
LjL-Matrix	Since I moved from a paper ID to an electronic ID, I've had to give SIX of my fingerprints. And I guess most people don't think that's even a big deal.	05:57
pwr22	Lol @ your dad	05:57
pwr22	People in the UK would probably riot	05:58
LjL-Matrix	The old paper ID only had one fingerprint if you had criminal precedents	05:58
LjL-Matrix	Peter: well I hope your nurses are good	05:59
LjL-Matrix	and better than the doctor that did my assessment because what the actual...	05:59
pwr22	I know the UK has had trained volunteers doing vaccines too	05:59
LjL-Matrix	Yeah	05:59
pwr22	Mostly we just are asked what arm we want it in	06:00
pwr22	There's very little bureaucracy about it	06:00
LjL-Matrix	Anyway it's 6am so I'm going to sleep early to give the vaccine time to build up good immunity and everything, you know	06:00
pwr22	👍	06:00
pwr22	I'm in bed now myself	06:01
pwr22	I tend to sleep in two chunks quite often these days	06:01
LjL-Matrix	that's not necessarily bad i guess	06:02
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Brainstorm	Updates for Hong Kong: +7 cases (now 11859) since 21 hours ago — Taiwan: +342 cases (now 11298), +35 deaths (now 260) since a day ago	12:11
Brainstorm	Updates for Oman: +3177 cases (now 223879), +28 deaths (now 2413) since 3 days ago — Austria: +362 cases (now 646800), +3 deaths (now 10639) since 22 hours ago	14:40
Brainstorm	Updates for Nepal: +3024 cases (now 588124), +99 deaths (now 7898) since 23 hours ago	15:05
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Brainstorm	Updates for Dem. Rep. Congo: +406 cases (now 33202), +7 deaths (now 804) since 19 hours ago	15:30
ReGiStRaS	It seems that SinoVac COVID-19 Vaccine is the most and has 100% efficacy on B1617 variant AND also other 6 variants!!!	18:20
ReGiStRaS	https://voi.id/en/news/51693/experts-say-sinovac-vaccine-is-still-reliable-against-b1617	18:20
ReGiStRaS	https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/covid-19-private-clinics-be-chosen-provide-sinovac-vaccine-fees-selected-vaccine-takers-be-reimbursed	18:20
ReGiStRaS	"Only a vaccine such as Sinovac that has an inactivated virus "with all its seven antigens" can still produce an immune response even when one antigen of the active invading virus is affected by mutation, Dr Oon wrote."	18:21
de-facto	there is no such thing like 100% efficacy...	18:21
ReGiStRaS	ok. then 99%	18:22
ReGiStRaS	duh!	18:22
ReGiStRaS	https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-brazil-idUSKBN2AH2H0	18:22
ReGiStRaS	and WHO took their own fucking sweet time to approve SinoVac under EU...LOL	18:23
ReGiStRaS	so obvious is political!	18:23
de-facto	yeah unfortunately there are many tries to politicize science	18:25
ReGiStRaS	Well you can't blame those because this time WHO made it very obvious! is like "IN YOUR FACE" type of obviousness	18:28
de-facto	we need all the vaccines we can get, since production capacities are so low	18:29
ReGiStRaS	And at what expense this time?!	18:29
de-facto	not sure how their production scales, but i guess it might be quite a challenge to grow SARS-CoV-2 itself in large enough quantities and stabilize it	18:30
ReGiStRaS	that's bullshit. SinoVac already had their vaccine ready long before others. Don't forget they are ground 0!	18:31
de-facto	i am talking about large scale production, not having it ready for trials or such	18:32
ReGiStRaS	still WHO choose to look at others first	18:32
de-facto	idk if WHO "choose" anything. when did they apply for approval?	18:33
ReGiStRaS	I understand your point to do large scale production of vaccines and as you said, "we need all the vaccines we can get, since production capacities are so low"	18:34
de-facto	yes hence i wish there was no bias, only trials and quality itself should count	18:35
ReGiStRaS	My point is SinoVac is only approved now after over 1.5 years since COVID-19 first discovered	18:35
de-facto	but afaik its like the manufacturers themselves actively have to go for approval process, its not that they would be invited for that or such	18:35
ReGiStRaS	and only after AZ screwed up	18:35
de-facto	yeah and the others also just got approved, half a year ago and many more to come	18:36
de-facto	its a slow process unfortunately	18:36
Brainstorm	Updates for Italy: +2275 cases (now 4.2 million), +51 deaths (now 126523) since a day ago	18:37
de-facto	i mean basically the vaccines themselves were done in spring of 2020, the rest was testing and approval, trials (all very important ofc, but it takes a lot of time)	18:37
LjL	ReGiStRaS, hmm where in the articles you linked does it say SinoVac has 100% efficacy against B.1.617, or even that it's the "most" efficacious? i don't see it.	18:37
de-facto	AZ screwed up with their PR, the vaccine itself is a lot better than its reputation imho	18:37
de-facto	Hey LjL how are you feeling?	18:38
LjL	SinoVac has a stated efficacy below 70% with the original variant so i'd be very surprised with 100% efficacy against that particular variant	18:38
LjL	de-facto, i'm fine, thanks, just arm hurting slightly	18:38
de-facto	glad to hear :)	18:39
de-facto	LjL, had a good sleep blooming with spikes?	18:45
de-facto	interestingly China is progressing quite fast with its vaccination campaign https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations	18:53
de-facto	https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-covid-vaccination-doses-per-capita?time=latest	18:53
de-facto	.title https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-56731801	18:56
Brainstorm	de-facto: From www.bbc.com: Chile sees Covid surge despite vaccination success - BBC News	18:56
de-facto	"More than 93% of the doses administered in Chile so far have been CoronaVac, produced by the Beijing-based biopharmaceutical company Sinovac."	18:56
de-facto	"Prof Bueno, who is the scientific director of the clinical trial for CoronaVac vaccines in Chile, says complying with the full vaccination schedule is therefore paramount. "Just one dose doesn't give you the whole preventive response," she explains."	18:57
de-facto	surely not 100% though... far from it	18:58
de-facto	but maybe its more broad (e.g. less variant specific)?	18:59
de-facto	https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/chile/	19:01
Brainstorm	Updates for Fiji: +83 cases (now 687) since a day ago — Burundi: +24 cases (now 4905), +2 deaths (now 8) since 23 hours ago	19:02
de-facto	unfortunately their case trends dont look good at all in Chile there	19:02
de-facto	https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-people-vaccinated-covid?country=~CHL	19:04
de-facto	https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-people-fully-vaccinated-covid?country=~CHL	19:05
de-facto	Chile at last one dose 58.3% and fully vaccinated 43.9%	19:06
de-facto	idk i would hope to see much less infections with such a high number of vaccinated people	19:07
de-facto	so maybe CoronaVac from SinoVac is not working that well for them there? or is it just their behavior?	19:08
de-facto	probably a mix of both	19:08
LjL	de-facto: the sleep was decent but tbh I slept after 6am ;(	19:15
LjL	Also having a walk now and my god, in busy streets it's not just "reopened", it's like... Three times the amount of people there was before Covid	19:16
de-facto	hmm hopefully people wearing masks and do distancing from each other?	19:19
Brainstorm	Updates for United Kingdom: +3686 cases (now 4.5 million) since 16 hours ago — France: +2 deaths (now 110039) since 16 hours ago	19:39
LjL	de-facto, no, people cramming up benches without a single mask ;(	19:47
LjL	i was in chinatown, basically only the chinese were wearing masks properly	19:47
LjL	italians either didn't have them or did the usual nose-out thing	19:47
pwr22	The nose out thing really challenges my faith in humanity	20:21
pwr22	Like, how can we deem these people intelligent beings who are always nose out?	20:22
LjL	pwr22, this one had it so down that he was basically biting the top of the mask	20:23
pwr22	They manage to keep their trousers up so why not their masks 😛?	20:23
LjL	yum yum taste that nice coronavirus	20:23
pwr22	Lol yeah	20:23
LjL	they don't all manage to keep their trousers up :P	20:23
pwr22	Ha	20:24
de-facto	lol yeah i have to hold back myself everytime when i see something like that	20:40
de-facto	had already many times quite heated discussions and they all ended like "lets call the police"	20:41
LjL	be careful :P	20:42
pwr22	Lol, which side were the police getting called on 😁	20:43
de-facto	just also went for a walk on the mountain, i was too lazy the last two days, so you telling me you were on a walk motivated me to go out aswell :))	20:43
de-facto	theirs	20:43
de-facto	i want to go for a walk everyday again, sometimes its hard to motivate myself with such things	20:45
LjL	<CoronaBot> /r/covid19: Residual SARS-CoV-2 viral antigens detected in GI and hepatic tissues from five recovered patients with COVID-19 (81 votes) \| https://gut.bmj.com/content/early/2021/06/01/gutjnl-2021-324280?fbclid=IwAR32h821uNBBO1wuu594rXz4sOSaECYUF1epPqY_pCHr9t2Fxozgsdup8iE \| https://redd.it/ntnpe1	20:50
de-facto	hmm interesting LjL i wonder how that relates to 1) long covid 2) if its possible that they ever become infectious again (hence breed variants)	20:58
de-facto	and of course what vaccination for such carriers changes on all that	20:59
de-facto	afaik i read a paper some time ago that suggested that antibodies were build against convergent mutations (hence possibly from persistent infection pockets) that were not present in the original infection strain	21:01
Brainstorm	Updates for Sudan: +35 deaths (now 2697) since 4 days ago	21:31
de-facto	CryptoClub whats wrong with your connection?	21:37
Brainstorm	Updates for Germany: +5972 cases (now 3.7 million), +393 deaths (now 89637) since 23 hours ago	22:08
Brainstorm	Updates for Tunisia: +1950 cases (now 355732), +32 deaths (now 12980) since 19 hours ago	22:33
LjL	Treadmilling a bit made my arm pain slightly worsr	22:50
LjL	It's still highly bearable though	22:50
Timvde	LjL: got your first vaccine?	22:51
LjL	Timvde: yesterday, ye	22:51
Timvde	Cool :) I'm still waiting for my invitation	22:53
Timvde	We're going strictly by age here	22:53
Timvde	So I have to wait, because we apparently have a very high vaccination rate	22:55
Timvde	In Flanders, over 97% of 65+ers got vaccinated	22:56
Timvde	So I'm not complaining, that's the single reason for a delay that makes me happy	22:56
Brainstorm	Updates for Aruba: +16 cases (now 11057) since a day ago	23:10
LjL	Timvde, they're going by age here too, but i'm old enough :P	23:20
LjL	but some older people have still not been vaccinated	23:20
LjL	mainly because the people who can't go to the vaccine centers have to be vaccinated at home, which takes a long time	23:20
LjL	but now they're starting to have "open days" for kids 12-15 after the AIFA approval	23:21
LjL	so only those under 12yo are definitely not getting vaccinated as of now	23:21
LjL	Timvde, we're pretty close, also if you check other metrics https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Metric=Vaccine+doses&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=BEL~ITA	23:23
LjL	reminder: look for the italian study on vaccine efficacy supposedly made on 14 million people	23:30
de-facto	interesting, indeed it looks like all EU states are progressing more or less at the same rates with vaccination	23:41
de-facto	thats good	23:41
Timvde	LjL: but that graph doesn't say anything but "we all bought vaccines as part of the EU program"	23:43
Timvde	There is a large difference here between the different parts	23:43
LjL	Timvde, sure but still some countries are going slightly slower, also adopting different strategies as to whether give as many people as possible a 1st dose or timely 2nd doses	23:43
Timvde	In Brussels, only 77% of people aged 65+ got vaccinated...	23:44
de-facto	https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Metric=Vaccine+doses&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=European+Union~AUT~BEL~BGR~DNK~DEU~EST~FIN~FRA~GRC~IRL~ITA~HRV~LVA~LTU~LUX~MLT~NLD~POL~PRT~ROU~SWE~SVK~SVN~ESP~CZE~HUN~CYP	23:48
de-facto	well actually not all of them	23:48
de-facto	whats up with Bulgaria for example	23:48
ecks	hoping to get the second shot tomorrow \o/	23:49
de-facto	https://www.euronews.com/2021/05/18/in-bulgaria-even-doctors-aren-t-sure-covid-19-vaccines-are-a-good-idea	23:50
de-facto	nice ecks which one?	23:50
ecks	pfizer	23:50
de-facto	congratz	23:50
Timvde	de-facto: yikes!	23:50
de-facto	ecks, some said the 2nd mRNA may have more side effects, yet then you are fully vaccinated from tomorrow in a week	23:52
ecks	hope that the side effects don't last for more than a day	23:53
ecks	i have stuff to do	23:53
de-facto	well yet expect them to last at least a day, if shorter you are lucky i guess	23:56
ecks	yeah but i don't think the side effects are that common anyway	23:56
de-facto	like beginning up to a day after injection, lasting 24h or such	23:56
de-facto	i am not sure about how common they are, i think quite common in the younger people	23:57
de-facto	my parents in their 70 had none for booster with BioNTech/Pfizer	23:57
Timvde	de-facto: lots of people barely have any side effects though	23:58
Timvde	Just a sore arm	23:58
de-facto	Timvde, with mRNA 2nd dose?	23:58
Timvde	Yes	23:59
de-facto	in their 30s or 40s?	23:59
Timvde	But maybe it's more older people	23:59
Timvde	I didn't look into age demographics	23:59
de-facto	i think it strongly depends on age, but thats just a guess	23:59

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