libera/##covid-19/ Thursday, 2021-06-17

nixonix	maybe it was, but then in the field, after it was produced in larger quantities, then the cold chain	00:00
nixonix	pfizer had problems like that according to those leaked documents	00:00
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Recent Commits to links:master: Add CureVac press release, failing primary endpoint with 47% efficacy ( https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/commit/f136d49460ea1f81cc9ad5c7f2d693eca7c29524 )		00:08
nixonix	anyways, when it seems spike or S1 levels during the active infection are actually lower than previously thought, it seems like the hypothesis that binding of spike to cells' ace2 itself would be a major factor for the disease, seems wrok	00:09
nixonix	wrong	00:09
nixonix	at least in vascular endothelium	00:10
Brainstorm	New from https://covid19.specops.network : ljl-covid: Add CureVac press release, failing primary endpoint with 47% efficacy → https://is.gd/TEyHR1	00:11
nixonix	the good thing with curevac failing is, its similar mrna vaccine, and those all suffer from the same manufacturing restrictions, like availability of PEG	00:12
LjL	nixonix, what disappoints me is that Pfizer/BNT seems to have established itself as the "mainstream" vaccine, which would be good since it seems to be a good vaccine and it has shown it can meet production schedules... BUT unlike Moderna, they decided that thanks to their trial that showed it retains 75% efficacy against the bad variant (again i forget if SA or Indian), they decided they'll just provide a third booster shot without any difference, while both	00:15
LjL	Moderna and AZ are working on variant-specific vaccines (Moderna is trialling one). i think not doing that is a myopic move, it may still work for now, but variants will keep varying. be aggressive. be proactive.	00:15
nixonix	i think they just dont want to push the idea at the moment, and they have variant optimized versions ready	00:18
LjL	nixonix, well, if they aren't trialling it, it'll take a longer delay to announce it and produce it...	00:19
nixonix	you never know when a new different VOC appears again	00:19
nixonix	was it pfizer that just said, they will have a vaccine for another variant ready in a week. whatever it means, like a production line putting out updated vaccine in a week?	00:19
LjL	nixonix, i remember a "six week" quote, think that was Moderna but unsure, and i've always been assuming just they'd have the vaccine "design" ready in that time	00:20
nixonix	but yea i would currently have my booster shot optimized vs indian variant	00:20
nixonix	%title https://twitter.com/angie_rasmussen/status/1404450348614537219	00:26
Brainstorm	nixonix: From twitter.com: error parsing title ('NoneType' object has no attribute 'string')	00:26
nixonix	said those vaccd with az should prob have mrna booster	00:27
nixonix	as a 3rd	00:27
LjL	hm it's more about single-dose J&J	00:33
LjL	which makes sense as to me J&J is basically the same as a single dose of AZ, just studied specifically as such	00:33
LjL	but i'm pretty bummed that my parents got AZ, and most people their age (70-80) ended up with Pfizer instead, and now they're stuck with a second dose of AZ, while people <60 will get mRNA as their second dose even if they got AZ as first	00:34
LjL	their age is among the most vulnerable, and they are being treated with the least protective combination	00:34
LjL	let's stop dancing around it, if we don't consider AZ good enough (and rare side effects are at least 50% just an excuse for that), let's stop using it. Pfizer delivers.	00:35
Brainstorm	Updates for Uganda: +1110 cases (now 65631), +49 deaths (now 508) since a day ago — India: +2481 deaths (now 379512) since 21 hours ago — Monaco: +7 cases (now 2539) since a day ago	00:35
nixonix	All assays have limits of detection (in this case it’s labelled). A 10 nM concentration is very small- and yet this is still about 100,000 times more spike than what we find in plasma. This assay is pretty special to be able to find anything reliably at this concentration	00:38
nixonix	about if the amount of spike or S1 from vacc was harmfull or not	00:39
nixonix	https://www.deplatformdisease.com/blog/spike-protein-circulating-in-the-vaccinated-what-does-it-mean	00:39
nixonix	but that 100k claim contradicts with that on in the another paper	00:40
nixonix	one	00:40
de-facto	.title https://www.curevac.com/en/2021/06/16/curevac-provides-update-on-phase-2b-3-trial-of-first-generation-covid-19-vaccine-candidate-cvncov/	00:41
Brainstorm	de-facto: From www.curevac.com: CureVac Provides Update on Phase 2b/3 Trial of First-Generation COVID-19 Vaccine Candidate, CVnCoV - CureVac	00:41
de-facto	hmm that looks disappointing at first sight	00:41
de-facto	hopefully their next gen works better	00:43
de-facto	.titel https://www.curevac.com/en/2021/05/13/second-generation-covid-19-vaccine-candidate-cv2cov-demonstrates-high-immunogenicity-against-virus-variants-in-preclinical-study/	00:43
de-facto	.title https://www.curevac.com/en/2021/05/13/second-generation-covid-19-vaccine-candidate-cv2cov-demonstrates-high-immunogenicity-against-virus-variants-in-preclinical-study/	00:43
Brainstorm	de-facto: From www.curevac.com: Second-Generation COVID-19 Vaccine Candidate, CV2CoV, Demonstrates High Immunogenicity Against Virus Variants in Preclinical Study - CureVac	00:43
LjL	but how long until that reaches final stages?	00:43
LjL	you were saying they already had trouble getting enough cases with the current trial...	00:44
de-facto	yeah thats what i heard, before it was like they would finalize that in August or such because they could not get enough infections	00:45
de-facto	but 47% in interim thats not enough :/	00:45
LjL	nope :(	00:45
de-facto	maybe their dose is not sufficient with 12µg? (speculation!)	00:45
LjL	yeah nixonix mentioned that	00:46
LjL	but again changing the dose now is like starting from scratch unless they do AZ-style shenanigans	00:46
de-facto	it was released hours ago	00:46
de-facto	i dont know what they will do now	00:46
LjL	sure, but we're allowed to speculate :P	00:47
de-facto	afaik their technology is really advanced they even stabilized the mRNA at fridge temp for 3 month	00:47
de-facto	i mean if Moderna injects 100µg mRNA, BioNTech 30µg and CureVac only 12µg maybe that is a difference?	00:47
de-facto	again speculation	00:48
LjL	but as i said there will have been a reason why they chose that dose in the first place, too	00:48
de-facto	or that they tested in south america, because in europe they probably did not accumulate enough cases	00:48
LjL	anyway, new dose, new trial. you can't predict side effects etc with a larger dose	00:48
de-facto	and maybe in south america there are a lot of evasive mutants breeded already?	00:48
de-facto	yeah true	00:49
de-facto	yet i wonder how the other vaccines would do with those variants in south america, probably not as well as with the wuhan style (almost non mutated) first strains	00:49
de-facto	LjL i think they aimed at being one of the vaccines with the lowest level of side effects, so maybe that is a reason they choose those 12µg	00:51
de-facto	but back when they choose that they could not have known how much evasive potential SARS-CoV-2 really has over time	00:51
de-facto	maybe the others were just like putting more margin in there on speculating they could need higher levels later (for the price of more side effects)?	00:52
de-facto	again completely speculative, for sure we soon will read more about this	00:53
de-facto	i am pretty sure their technology is one of the most advanced, their founder even was one of the discoverers of the very principle to use mRNA as therapeutic	00:53
nixonix	Spike protein was detectable in three of 13 participants u an average of 15 days after the first injection. The mean spike peak level was 62 pg/mL ± 13 pg/mL. After the second vaccine dose, no S1 or spike was detectable, and both a antigens remained undetectable through day 56.	00:58
lavadonut	my workplace is requiring everyone get vaccinated	00:58
nixonix	https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciab465/6279075	00:58
Brainstorm	Updates for Liberia: +154 cases (now 2729), +1 deaths (now 95) since a day ago	01:00
de-facto	hmm interesting, maybe their does really is the upper limit?	01:13
de-facto	also found another about mRNA-1273	01:14
de-facto	.title https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2781173	01:14
Brainstorm	de-facto: From jamanetwork.com: Incidence of SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Health Care Workers After a Single Dose of mRNA-1273 Vaccine \| Infectious Diseases \| JAMA Network Open \| JAMA Network	01:14
de-facto	"Among the 39 SARS-COV-2–positive vaccinated HCWs, 26 (66.7%) received dose 1 before December 29, 2020. Vaccine clinical effectiveness was 50.3% (95% CI, 23.0%-67.9%) for the entire 42-day period of follow-up, 77.5% (95% CI, 61.2%-87.0%) for days 8 through 42, and 95.0% (95% CI, 86.0%-98.2%) for days 15 through 42"	01:14
nixonix	the link and quote i posted was about whether s-protein or s1 binding to cell's ace2 itself was harmful, especially in concentrations you get from mrna vaccines	01:20
nixonix	pizers side effects after the 2nd dose are supposed to be more common than moderna's, even though pfizer has 30 ug vs 100	01:22
nixonix	pf..	01:22
de-facto	BNT more? i thought its the other way	01:23
nixonix	and curevac doesnt use pseudouridine. although its about cells internal immune response, it may have an effect to other immune response too	01:23
nixonix	i think they were just balancing different things trying to optimize stuff, maybe mrna production being one of the limiting factors	01:24
nixonix	pfizer 30, moderna 100 wasnt it	01:24
de-facto	btw in the paper you linked, quite interesting they speculate the cleavaging of the s1 subunit was done by proteases already present	01:25
de-facto	i wonder if that could be used for therapy: cleave off the spikes on virions, make them fusion-incompetent	01:25
de-facto	is that something that could be done in vivo?	01:25
nixonix	curevac not using pseudouridine would mean cells immune respons would be harder to its mrna. but they had another ways to make it last and/or increase s-protein production by ribosomes	01:25
de-facto	if its an enzyme it would not deplete by cutting off the spikes	01:26
nixonix	isnt that tmprss2?	01:26
nixonix	or furin	01:26
de-facto	"The presence of S1 is likely due to the nature of the encoded mRNA-1273 spike protein, which contains a cleavable S1-S2 site and enables release of S1 from the spike trimer. We hypothesize that release of S1 protein could result from cleavage via mammalian cell proteases or circulating proteases."	01:27
nixonix	like something else instead of furin maybe?	01:29
de-facto	i am not sure what exactly they refer to there	01:29
de-facto	which type of proteases and if they could be artificially optimized to "bite the spike"	01:29
nixonix	maybe if it would make it really lose its s1, but if giving furin or something just activates those spikes, it wouldnt help	01:30
de-facto	well yeah they found lots of s1 so it must have been separated	01:30
de-facto	"We observe an increase in S1 over an initial period of one to five days, suggesting that mRNA translation begins immediately after vaccine inoculation. Interestingly, spike protein appears in three of thirteen participants on average eight days after S1 is produced."	01:31
de-facto	to me that sounds like there is something separating S1 from S2 and that would be a desired effect	01:32
de-facto	maybe something inside cells that would be suppressed by the other non-structural proteins when full SARS-CoV-2 is produced?	01:33
de-facto	(wild speculation!)	01:33
de-facto	maybe also something that would happen in cells in the liver? it would be the organ filtering out LNPs and thereby also blooming with spikes itself	01:36
de-facto	so maybe there is something in there that cuts off S1 from S2 that would be suppressed if it was the real full SARS-CoV-2?	01:37
de-facto	(even wilder speculation!)	01:37
Brainstorm	Updates for Qatar: +350 cases (now 220383) since a day ago	01:38
nixonix	A proprotein convertase enzyme FURIN is upregulated upon immune cell activation, and it promotes infectivity by cleaving and activating pathogens	01:41
nixonix	so it seems furin increases both in infection and when vaccine activates immune response	01:41
nixonix	leading to more cleaving of s1/s2	01:41
nixonix	and with mrna vaccines, those whole spike proteins that stay anchored in cells, will be released when immune cells like nk cells or killer t-cells decide to get rid of them as they were infected	01:43
Brainstorm	New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: CureVac shares tank 50% after preliminary data shows Covid vaccine is only 47% effective → https://is.gd/moatls	01:44
nixonix	but whether those s1 or spikes from mrna or viralvector vaccines are harmful or not, is mostly academic (still mechanism are important to study tho). the result can be seen from population vaccinations, serious side effects are rare	01:47
nixonix	but could it still explain those mycarditises? prob not imo, but who knows	01:48
de-facto	but spikes that were cleaved can not initiate fusion anymore, so any protease that could do that without the fusion process would decrease pathogen infectivity right?	01:49
nixonix	it needs to happen before fusion, so i dont think it would help	01:50
nixonix	i wonder if curevac will ever tell what was the cause of the problem. leaving us too curious to handle it	01:59
nixonix	just something like optimized the ribosomal functioning and s-protein expression blaa blaa	02:00
de-facto	yes of course before fusion, hence preventing fusion	02:01
nixonix	i need to try to find more recent information if whole the process is now understood, but the last time i read it wasnt	02:06
nixonix	s1 and s2 dont separate altogether after the cleavage though	02:06
nixonix	and then theres another cleavage in s2 that activates the fusion	02:06
nixonix	so if you could separate s1 that might work, but furin doesnt do that	02:07
nixonix	how it possibly happens with vaccines, so that free s1 are floating in plasma, separated from s2 still anchored to cell membrane, its all hypotheses level for now	02:08
de-facto	yeah yet if some enzyme or protease could initiate a transition of full prefusion conformation of spike into something that is not able to fusion anymore it would be pretty interesting to investigate if such something could be injected or employed to damage virions spike to make them fusion-incompetent	02:09
nixonix	if it does separate, maybe its because its somewhat different due to proline substitutions perhaps, or its anchored differently than in virions	02:09
de-facto	yeah they dont claim to understand the process that leads to that s1 there, but it cant be immunity set (so early) hence my conjecture about something already present in the cells before (and possibly in the liver since it would get quite some of those LNPs according to Derek Lowe)	02:10
nixonix	yeah, too bad that kind of possibility must have thought many times before. so it seems its not currently a viable solution. but maybe some kind of fully cleavaging enzyme could be invented then, who knows	02:10
de-facto	idk if they knew about that S1 floating around after vaccination	02:11
de-facto	maybe its the first hint to some mechanism that separates them and that already is present prior to first encounter with anything SARS-CoV-2 related (naive immune system and first injection)	02:12
nixonix	destroying spikes any way, that would work. but apparently theres no way, yet anyways	02:13
de-facto	if it was present already it must be compatible with normal body functions (at least at the place where it is, probably inside cells?)	02:13
nixonix	theres a lot more virions with their spikes, at least in many patients, in plasma and produced in endothelium than anyone will get from mrna vaccine. so if its true that similar levels of s1 from infection and vaccine are in plasma, it must mean that s1 separates more easily when spikes are expressed by vaccinated cells	02:17
de-facto	hmm or maybe that something that does such separation inside the cells that produce (either spikes or while virions) is suppressed by some of the SARS-CoV-2 Non-Structural-Proteins (NSPs)	02:19
de-facto	maybe it got some fancy protease-XY inhibitor NSP that just is produced at the same time as the spikes hence they wont get cleaved during production when that is present?	02:20
de-facto	and maybe that is not present outside cells? yet then why would it appear so early (are NK-cells already going berserk about those spike blooming ones that early?)	02:22
nixonix	or that vaccine would just produce some of the s-proteins damaged, s1 separated	02:22
de-facto	that could very well be the case, maybe degraded mRNA	02:22
de-facto	i dont know what effect that would have, ribosomes choking on it only producing S1 subunits?	02:23
nixonix	which dont have anchor region, so wouldnt stay in cell membrane	02:24
de-facto	but something like that very easily could be determined in cell cultures	02:24
de-facto	different levels of degraded mRNA and then looking at what the cells produce with that	02:25
nixonix	could be. lets see what they will find out. the end result is important tho, benefit/harm in population	02:25
de-facto	yes and all i said is completely speculative	02:25
nixonix	novavax has modified spike so that s1 wont be cleavaged	02:30
nixonix	ok next time, sleep	02:38
Brainstorm	Updates for United Kingdom: +6243 cases (now 4.6 million), +7 deaths (now 128054) since 21 hours ago — France: +32 deaths (now 110593) since 21 hours ago — Netherlands: +521 cases (now 1.7 million), +1 deaths (now 17853) since 21 hours ago	02:40
Brainstorm	Updates for Germany: +2461 cases (now 3.7 million), +357 deaths (now 90748) since 21 hours ago	04:07
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Brainstorm	New from The Indian Express: World: CureVac fails in pivotal Covid-19 vaccine trial with 47% efficacy → https://is.gd/XxvBav	05:01
Brainstorm	Updates for Panama: +1048 cases (now 390221), +2 deaths (now 6457) since a day ago	05:09
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Brainstorm	New from The Indian Express: World: As pandemic recedes, calls are growing for an investigative commission → https://is.gd/ppZ5bW	05:55
Brainstorm	New from This Week In Virology: TWiV 769: MIS-C and leaky gut: On this episode of TWiV, Novavax COVID-19 vaccine demonstrates 90% overall efficacy, preventing an antigenically disruptive change during growth of influenza virus vaccine in chicken eggs, and MIS-C is driven by loss of the gut mucosal barrier. → https://is.gd/hjbq0e	06:16
Brainstorm	New from EurekAlert!: Simple urine test may help early detection of brain tumors: A recent study by Nagoya University researchers revealed that microRNAs in urine could be a promising biomarker to diagnose brain tumors. Their findings have indicated that regular urine tests could help early detection and treatment of brain tumors, possibly leading to [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/AfPwzq	06:27
Brainstorm	Updates for Peru: +7713 cases (now 2.0 million), +261 deaths (now 189522) since a day ago — Belgium: +671 cases (now 1.1 million), +11 deaths (now 25110) since a day ago	06:36
Brainstorm	New from EurekAlert!: Stress during pandemic linked to poor sleep: A study found that stress, anxiety and depression during the first few weeks of the pandemic were associated with less and lower quality sleep. In a survey of more than 900 twins, about half of the respondents reported no change in sleep patterns, but 32.9% reported decreased sleep. [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/tT66JQ	06:48
Brainstorm	New from The Indian Express: World: Vaccine effort turns into slog as infectious variant spreads in US → https://is.gd/DkLPjl	06:58
Brainstorm	New from BBC Health: (news): Covid: NHS Wales under 'substantial pressure' amid backlog → https://is.gd/p7DTjI	07:19
Brainstorm	New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Study: Delta variant fuelled 50 percent rise in Britain Covid-19 prevalence → https://is.gd/3cMwNz	07:30
Brainstorm	Updates for Bogota, Colombia: +24932 cases (now 1.1 million), +292 deaths (now 21123) since 2 days ago — Rio Grande do Norte, Brazil: +12876 cases (now 1.4 million), +340 deaths (now 36549) since a day ago — Antioquia, Colombia: +8939 cases (now 587256), +91 deaths (now 12902) since 2 days ago [... want %more?]	07:38
Brainstorm	New from The Indian Express: World: US CDC classifies Delta variant as ‘variant of concern’ → https://is.gd/qRhFFB	07:51
Brainstorm	New from Politico: UK government hid sick pay scheme for workers isolating with coronavirus: UK Treasury instructed government officials to conceal a little-known provision that granted sick pay to people isolating with the coronavirus. → https://is.gd/6L47PV	08:53
Brainstorm	New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread \| June 17, 2021: Please refer to our Wiki for more information on COVID-19 and our sub. You can find answers to frequently asked questions in our FAQ , where there is valuable information such as our: → https://is.gd/GvprBE	09:04
Brainstorm	Updates for Kyrgyzstan: +787 cases (now 112777), +4 deaths (now 1916) since 23 hours ago — Uzbekistan: +371 cases (now 104834), +2 deaths (now 713) since 23 hours ago	09:30
Brainstorm	New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: After Black, White And Yellow Now 'Green Fungus' Detected In A Recovered COVID-19 Patient → https://is.gd/w6lnP3	10:05
Brainstorm	Updates for Germany: +2466 cases (now 3.7 million) since 18 hours ago	10:32
Brainstorm	New from Reddit (test): Global COVID Cases For 17JUN21: Summary As Of: 17JUN @ 08:14 GMT Countries 220 + 2 Cases 177,827,792 Deaths 3,847,778 Recovered 162,276,040 Active Cases 11,640,063 Countries reporting new cases in this update: 76 Countries reporting new deaths in this update: 44 With Active cases w/No Active cases w/All cases rcvrd Cntry’s 207 [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/mOBpr4	10:37
Brainstorm	New from StatNews: First Opinion: Opinion: A surprising pandemic side effect: People are more engaged with their health → https://is.gd/WIFSEH	10:47
Brainstorm	New from Reddit (test): nCoV: Covid 19 coronavirus: New Zealand, New South Wales travel bubble to stay open \| 17JUN21 → https://is.gd/yk58cw	11:08
Brainstorm	New from Reddit (test): nCoV: Japan to start issuing vaccine passports in July \| 17JUN21 → https://is.gd/w6wFlF	11:18
Brainstorm	New from Reddit (test): nCoV: Medic says 10% of Covid-19 infections in Bangkok are Delta variant \| 17JUN21 → https://is.gd/wmojY2	11:29
Brainstorm	New from Reddit (test): nCoV: Arthritis drug shows promise against severe Covid-19: Study \| NEJM Study link in comment \| 17JUN21 → https://is.gd/rKKnYD	11:40
Brainstorm	New from BMJ: Covid-19: Failures of leadership, national and global: How well prepared were countries for this pandemic? Back in October 2019 the US and the UK were top of the world rankings as scored by the Global Health Security Index. The Epidemic Preparedness... → https://is.gd/lF6UOG	12:11
Brainstorm	New from BMJ: Covid-19: Scottish government failed to act on pre-pandemic advice to bolster PPE supplies, report finds: The Scottish government did not heed warnings before the pandemic that improvements were needed to the supply of personal protective equipment (PPE), and it was not best prepared to respond to... → https://is.gd/OY7NXh	12:21
Brainstorm	New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: 12 Taiwanese die after getting AstraZeneca shot over past 3 days → https://is.gd/030XYA	12:32
Brainstorm	New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Private Labs Carried Out Around 100k to 400k Fake COVID Tests in India's Uttarakhand in April, All Certified Negative, in Oder to Meet Daily Target of 50k Tests. The True Extent of the ‘Scam’ is Yet to Be Known → https://is.gd/EwfRTX	12:42
finely[m]	The G7 summit has made clear developed nations will conspire with big pharma to stop enough vaccines being produced to cover the world.	12:47
finely[m]	There is a summit of politicians from the less developed world to try to address this. But it seems no politicians from South Africa, India, Bangladesh or Brazil are attending. These are the four countries that could form a bloc that could do something meaningful. China is a wildcard. They are often openly disdainful of intellectual property and have the resources to produce 18 vaccines a year.	12:47
finely[m]	https://act.progressive.international/vaccine-internationalism/	12:47
finely[m]	"Obstructing a people’s access to vaccines during the pandemic is a crime against humanity"	12:51
finely[m]	https://theintercept.com/2021/06/17/vaccine-g7-covid-internationalism-summit/	12:51
yuta	I heard UK young people infected. but death rate is still low. what is problem?	12:56
finely[m]	Long COVID. More dangerous variants being produced in infected people (especially the immunocompromised). Passing the disease onto others.	12:59
finely[m]	Lockdowns. People dying of other medical issues when they can't find hospital beds.	13:00
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Il Presidente del Consiglio Draghi incontra il segretario della Lega Salvini ( https://www.governo.it/it/articolo/il-presidente-del-consiglio-draghi-incontra-il-segretario-della-lega-salvini/17182 )		13:10
yuta	finely[m], Thanks	13:12
Brainstorm	New from The Atlantic: The Case for the Four-Day Workweek: T he 89 people who work at Buffer, a company that makes social-media management tools, are used to having an unconventional employer. Everyone’s salary, including the CEO’s, is public. All employees work remotely; their only office closed down six years ago. And as a perk, Buffer pays for [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/VDY7GV	13:14
yuta	finely[m], but israel doesn't incrase infections.	13:14
yuta	any difference...	13:15
finely[m]	Not sure what you mean.	13:16
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: 13a seduta del Comitato interministeriale per le politiche relative allo Spazio e all’Aerospazio ( https://www.governo.it/it/articolo/13a-seduta-del-comitato-interministeriale-le-politiche-relative-allo-spazio-e-all )		13:20
yuta	israel uses vacctines like UK , but infections doesn't inrease in israel.	13:23
yuta	finely[m],	13:23
Brainstorm	New from Scientific American: Hidden Black Scientists Proved The Polio Vaccine Worked: Russell W. Brown ( left ) directed the Tuskegee Institute’s HeLa cell project for the Salk polio vaccine, assisted by James H.M. Henderson ( right ). → https://is.gd/aBHPjk	13:24
finely[m]	Don't know what's going on. Maybe different variants? Different behaviours or policies?	13:26
dTal	different behaviors quite likely	13:27
dTal	http://offloop.net/covid19/?default=United%20Kingdom;Israel&byPopulation=yes&logScale=yes&cumulative=no	13:27
dTal	look at the first wave	13:27
dTal	Israel recovered much faster than the UK and there were no vaccines in play at that point	13:28
yuta	dTal, israel had potential to prevent them from viruses. I see. Thanks.	13:29
yuta	well , air ventilarion is most important , I think lol	13:33
Brainstorm	New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: White couple who got vaccines meant for First Nation are fined but not jailed \| Canada → https://is.gd/t6Dh3j	13:35
Brainstorm	New from The Indian Express (Health): Health: Does everyone infected with Covid develop antibodies? A doctor answers → https://is.gd/XmNxJ8	14:06
Brainstorm	Updates for Indonesia: +12624 cases (now 2.0 million), +277 deaths (now 53753) since a day ago — Nepal: +1768 cases (now 615984), +39 deaths (now 8597) since 23 hours ago — Switzerland: +2 deaths (now 10869) since 21 hours ago	14:40
shayan_doust	%cases UK	14:41
Brainstorm	shayan_doust: In United Kingdom, there have been 4.6 million confirmed cases (6.9% of the population) and 128058 deaths (2.8% of cases) as of 7 hours ago. 197.7 million tests were performed (2.3% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=United%20Kingdom for time series data.	14:41
shayan_doust	Interesting	14:41
Brainstorm	New from Reddit (test): China_Flu: Hundreds of vaccinated Indonesian health workers get COVID-19, dozens in hospital → https://is.gd/IxCUL0	14:48
yuta	%cases JP	14:48
Brainstorm	yuta: Sorry, JP not found. Either there aren't cases, or it's under a different name.	14:48
yuta	%cases Japan	14:48
Brainstorm	yuta: In Japan, there have been 779338 confirmed cases (0.6% of the population) and 14269 deaths (1.8% of cases) as of 3 hours ago. 15.6 million tests were performed (5.0% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.2% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 1.9% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Japan for time series data.	14:48
finely[m]	" As Laurie Garrett suggested in a 2012 Foreign Affairs article, “few policy initiatives or normative standards set by the WHO are announced before they have been casually, unofficially vetted by Gates Foundation staff.” "	14:49
finely[m]	https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/11/philanthropy-charity-banga-carnegie-gates-foundation-development/	14:49
finely[m]	In a 2011 book chapter, Oxford health economist David Stuckler and his colleagues argue that “global health is ruled by a few private donors who make decisions in secret	14:50
Brainstorm	New from Politico: Coronavirus: G7 host Cornwall sees coronavirus cases spike after sunny weekend → https://is.gd/eDAz1l	14:59
Brainstorm	Updates for Dominica: +2 cases (now 191) since 6 days ago	15:05
Brainstorm	New from NIH Director's blog: Meet an Inspiring Researcher Who Helped Create COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines: More than 170 million Americans already have received COVID-19 vaccines. As this number continues to grow and expand to younger age groups, I’m filled with overwhelming gratitude for all of the researchers who worked so diligently, over the course of [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/vDl8FO	15:09
Brainstorm	Updates for Namibia: +2075 cases (now 69096), +33 deaths (now 1073) since a day ago — Senegal: +88 cases (now 42206), +2 deaths (now 1158) since a day ago — Germany: +2473 cases (now 3.7 million) since 22 hours ago	15:30
Brainstorm	New from StatNews: Pharma: STAT+: Pharmalittle: CureVac Covid-19 shot was 47% effective in a trial; pricey brain cancer drug no longer covered by Medicare → https://is.gd/ouk8aX	15:30
Brainstorm	New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: There is mounting evidence that the mRNA COVID-19 vaccines by Pfizer and Moderna could cause heart inflammation, especially in young men. → https://is.gd/IJ6UHN	16:03
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: “Green pass”, Draghi firma il decreto. Dal 1° luglio certificati validi in tutta l’Ue ( https://www.governo.it/it/articolo/green-pass-draghi-firma-il-decreto-dal-1-luglio-certificati-validi-tutta-l-ue/17184 )		16:21
Brainstorm	Updates for Zambia: +3394 cases (now 122244), +33 deaths (now 1525) since 18 hours ago — Bangladesh: +3840 cases (now 841087), +63 deaths (now 13345) since a day ago	16:32
Brainstorm	New from BMJ Open: A pragmatic health centre-based evaluation comparing the effectiveness of a PCV13 schedule change from 3+0 to 2+1 in a high pneumococcal carriage and disease burden setting in Malawi: a study protocol: Introduction Streptococcus pneumoniae (the pneumococcus) is commonly carried as a commensal bacterium in the nasopharynx but can [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/cPlIBy	16:35
Brainstorm	New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Fake coronavirus tests may have helped fuel Indian outbreaks. The Indian authorities launched an investigation after an internal government report concluded that some private agencies responsible for coronavirus testing on pilgrims at a sprawling Hindu festival forged at least 100,000 results. → https://is.gd/7IVUCw	16:46
Brainstorm	New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Calgary hospital has 22 cases linked to Delta COVID-19 variant, including 10 fully vaccinated → https://is.gd/DZHaGR	16:57
Brainstorm	New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: NIH study shows coronavirus may have been in U.S. as early as December 2019 → https://is.gd/2ZelzM	17:08
Brainstorm	New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: COVID-19 was spreading in the US by December 2019, mounting evidence suggests → https://is.gd/Y2rHJk	17:18
Brainstorm	New from Reddit (test): Thursday 17 June 2021 Update: submitted by /u/HippolasCage to r/CoronavirusUK → https://is.gd/YFbjKz	17:29
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Convocazione del Consiglio dei Ministri n. 24 ( https://www.governo.it/it/articolo/convocazione-del-consiglio-dei-ministri-n-24/17185 )		17:31
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Consiglio dei Ministri ( https://www.governo.it/it/articolo/consiglio-dei-ministri/17186 )		17:31
Brainstorm	Updates for Iraq: +5189 cases (now 1.3 million), +30 deaths (now 16811) since a day ago — Saudi Arabia: +1309 cases (now 470723), +14 deaths (now 7635) since a day ago	17:34
Brainstorm	New from EMA: What's new: Medicine: Human medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna, COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine (nucleoside modified), COVID-19 virus infection, Date of authorisation: 06/01/2021, Revision: 6, Status: Authorised → https://is.gd/ApJcx9	17:50
Brainstorm	Updates for United Kingdom: +11352 cases (now 4.6 million) since 23 hours ago	17:59
Brainstorm	New from Derek Lowe: @Dereklowe: CureVac's disappointing results: I think they're real, I think that their vaccine is indeed inferior, and there are some plausible reasons why that might be:https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/06/17/curevac-comes-up-short → https://is.gd/q1Wwhj	18:11
LjL	de-facto, ↑	18:17
Brainstorm	New from Derek Lowe: @ViralVectorTV: RT by @Dereklowe: I work on IVT mRNA and the lack of modified bases is puzzling. Unmod. mRNA looks like a lot like a RNA viral infection and cells often kill themselves before the protein is made. It def boosts immune response, but in a more generic/nontargeted way that isn't useful for a vaccine → https://is.gd/VOh2hO	18:22
Brainstorm	New from The Indian Express: World: US to spend $3.2B for antiviral pills for Covid-19: Anthony Fauci → https://is.gd/zgFjBT	18:33
Brainstorm	Updates for Kenya: +660 cases (now 177282), +6 deaths (now 3434) since 20 hours ago	18:37
Brainstorm	New from NPR: A COVID Outbreak At The U.S. Embassy In Kabul Has Sickened 114 People And Killed 1: Military hospital ICU resources are at full capacity and the embassy has been forced to "create temporary, on-compound COVID-19 wards," according to a note sent to embassy staff. → https://is.gd/km0NtM	18:54
Brainstorm	Updates for Mozambique: +165 cases (now 71929) since a day ago	19:01
Brainstorm	New from The Indian Express (Health): Art and Culture: In Argentina, pandemic exacts a heavy toll on tango culture → https://is.gd/mE6ukK	19:05
Brainstorm	New from Virological.org: Latest posts: @profbillg1901 profbillg1901: Genomic Gymnastics in the Nucleocapsid Gene of SARS-CoV-2 During Transmission in Humans: Transposition of ACGAAC and Creation of the novel N2 Gene → https://is.gd/1ujCqf	19:16
Brainstorm	Updates for Italy: +1323 cases (now 4.2 million), +37 deaths (now 127190) since a day ago	19:39
Brainstorm	New from ProPublica: ProPublica Data Visualizations Win Two Malofiej Medals: by ProPublica The Society for News Design España announced on Thursday that ProPublica projects won two medals, one gold and one bronze, at this year’s Malofiej, a prestigious annual competition honoring the best infographics in media from around the world. “ Hawaii’s [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/NxfX09	19:58
Brainstorm	Updates for Canada: +36 deaths (now 26001) since 23 hours ago	20:04
Brainstorm	New from The Indian Express: World: Hundreds of vaccinated Indonesian health workers get COVID-19, dozens in hospital → https://is.gd/IVcA8l	20:08
de-facto	LjL, yeah yet sometimes Derek Lowe is a bit on the US side of things, at least that is my impression. the only statement in there was "it could be due to unmodified mRNA that might be degenerating too fast"	20:08
de-facto	nothing about dosing, nothing about exact variants, etc	20:09
de-facto	(he could be right, no question about that, yet its a lot of sentences around this one statement)	20:09
xrogaan	Any thoughts on https://trialsitenews.com/did-pfizer-fail-to-perform-industry-standard-animal-testing-prior-to-initiation-of-mrna-clinical-trials/	20:15
xrogaan	%title	20:15
Brainstorm	xrogaan: From trialsitenews.com: Did Pfizer Fail to Perform industry Standard Animal Testing Prior to Initiation of mRNA Clinical Trials?	20:15
LjL	xrogaan, i'm not finding a lot of information about this trialsitenews.com site	20:22
xrogaan	Yeah, but the content though?	20:28
Brainstorm	New from Gazzetta Ufficiale italiana: MINISTERO DELLA SALUTE - ORDINANZA 16 giugno 2021: Ulteriori misure urgenti in materia di contenimento e gestionedell'emergenza epidemiologica da COVID-19 in relazione all'eventomusicale in programma all'Arena Sferisterio di Macerata il 18 e 19giugno 2021. (21A03740) → https://is.gd/3tgGwo	20:30
xrogaan	LjL: Been having an exchange on another channel here: https://dpaste.com/E7BAVZ79F	20:33
nixonix	found some information on spike levels during acute infection, seems to be around a few hundred pg/ml usually during the first week or so, but varies quite a bit	20:38
nixonix	spike, not s1	20:39
nixonix	After the first 100 μg dose, the mRNA-1273 vaccine produced detectable levels of S1 antigen in plasma in 11 participants and spike antigen was detected in three of 13 participants.	20:40
nixonix	these quotes are from the study about vaccine induced s1 and spike in plasma, tho. but i mentioned that above as a comparison	20:40
nixonix	S1 antigen was detected as early as day one post vaccination and peak levels were detected on average five days after the first injection (Figure 1A). The mean S1 peak levels was 68 pg/mL ±21 pg/mL. S1 in all participants declined and became undetectable by day 14.	20:41
nixonix	Spike protein was detectable in three of 13 participants an average of 15 days after the first injection. The mean spike peak level was 62 pg/mL ± 13 pg/mL. After the second vaccine dose, no S1 or spike was detectable, and both antigens remained undetectable through day 56. For one individual (Participant #8), spike was detected at day 29, one day	20:41
nixonix	after the second injection and was undetectable two days later.	20:41
LjL	xrogaan, i can't say that someone who's had an experience of very serious adverse effects around them doesn't matter. it's unsettling, but if it were statistically typical, then how come most of my extended family got jabbed and none had horrid life-threatening effects at all? did yours? did anyone here?	20:43
LjL	as to skipping testing, the article doesn't seem to provide very clear evidence, or i haven't paid close enough attention, but honestly, i'm not among those who believe these vaccines have been tested "just the same as any other vaccines" and just had faster bureaucracy	20:44
LjL	i would not be at all surprised to find a few standards phases of testing have been uh "fast-tracked"	20:44
LjL	but right now these vaccines are mostly working and not killing people unless somehow most people's experience is like golinux's but they all hide it	20:45
nixonix	what they "skipped" was reduced safety data period, from typical 6 months required to 2 months. but large population vaccinations have already showed that there are no serious concerns, exp that anaphylaxis thing that can be avoided (mrna vaxes, that is)	20:45
LjL	nixonix maybe you can give more competent commentary to xrogaan over this article https://trialsitenews.com/did-pfizer-fail-to-perform-industry-standard-animal-testing-prior-to-initiation-of-mrna-clinical-trials/	20:45
nixonix	im not aware of that mentioned in the title. so not commenting before i have found out :)	20:46
nixonix	but that site is antivaxer and pro-ivermectin site	20:47
nixonix	so i would check from more reliable sources	20:47
xrogaan	how do you know that? :P	20:47
nixonix	im familiar with the site	20:48
xrogaan	I can't drop "the site is antivax because somebody who's familiar with it said so".	20:48
nixonix	indo are you here? those health care workers got 2 doses of the chinese vax?	20:49
nixonix	https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/hundreds-indonesian-doctors-contract-covid-19-despite-vaccination-dozens-2021-06-17/	20:49
LjL	xrogaan, well what do you expect him to say? if he knows that based on having read several things from it and noticed they were the way he described...	20:50
nixonix	xrogaan, we have currently around 1 billion or so vaccinated with mrna vaccines, so a lot more safety data than from something like 30-40k phase 3 trials	20:51
nixonix	even though the required safety data was shorter than usual. it was a calculated risk vs lots of people dying from sars-cov-2 infection	20:51
nixonix	who knows a tracker where we could see how many doses given for different types or brands of vaccines? by country or just world wide	20:52
LjL	i only know of one for my country	20:53
LjL	nixonix, OWID has it for the US https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-vaccine-doses-by-manufacturer?country=~USA	20:55
LjL	hm maybe for other countries too, Italy works	20:56
LjL	just a few	20:56
nixonix	yeah, i was thinking either world wide, or a combined site where you could easily check for any country	20:56
nixonix	there are wikis for countries. maybe wiki has a list for that i was looking for too, have to check out later	20:57
nixonix	ah owid, yeah but it didnt have by brand or type, or does it have now?	20:57
nixonix	by manufacturer... need glasses	20:57
nixonix	ok ty	20:58
nixonix	i thought they only had those summaries of doses, that i have used	20:59
LjL	my guess is they have it for nearly all countries that openly publish that information. which if that's the case, looks like it's not many	21:00
nixonix	this is handy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_misinformation	21:01
nixonix	they often have lag for data in owid. also for stringency index its not been accurate for finland, possibly nobody bothers to find out whats happening in the end of the world, or they dont consider other than nation level changes	21:03
nixonix	it showed straight line for several months, when there were subregional changes during the mid-winter peak	21:03
nixonix	or spring-winter	21:03
Brainstorm	Updates for France: +79 deaths (now 110660) since 21 hours ago	21:06
LjL	nixonix, i found other sites that kept tract of stringency of measures adopted, one or two seemed very specific, but i've failed to note them down and/or use their API for the bot :(	21:07
LjL	let me see if logs are any help	21:08
LjL	nixonix, one was https://covidtracker.bsg.ox.ac.uk/	21:09
LjL	nixonix, and https://covid-statistics.jrc.ec.europa.eu/RMeasures for EU countries, not sure if there was another one	21:10
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Comunicato stampa del Consiglio dei Ministri n. 24 ( https://www.governo.it/it/articolo/comunicato-stampa-del-consiglio-dei-ministri-n-24/17193 )		21:10
nixonix	thanks, ill save those in my notes	21:12
xrogaan	LjL: anyhow, thanks for the input.	21:18
nixonix	today was that conference about myocarditis. but for usa, it was apparently mostly based on VAERS reports	21:19
nixonix	https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2021/05/03/federal-vaers-database-a-critical-research-tool-breeding-ground-for-misinformation/	21:19
nixonix	i havent followed the subject during the last couple of weeks, if they have new information in israel	21:19
nixonix	xrogaan ill have a look on those animal test claims, if you find another reliable source for the claim	21:20
xrogaan	I'm not really looking for any. It just popped in the discussion.	21:21
nixonix	but for sure they shortened the required saftety data periods because of pandemia. they did that for human trials, so wouldnt be surprise if they did that for animal tests too	21:21
nixonix	they did phases overlapping each other, rolling review of the results, everything possible	21:22
nixonix	brits even approved possibly earlier than enough safety data. EMA took a bit more time	21:23
nixonix	for FDA standards it was in normal circumstances 6 months safety data, and for adjuvanted vaccines 12 months (they have additional risks, adjuvants)	21:24
nixonix	betacoronavirus nucleocapsids are risky. but currently approved sars2 vaccines, in the west that is, use only s-protein	21:25
nixonix	so whole virus vaccines will prob never be approved for sars2 in the west	21:26
nixonix	live-attenuated or killed	21:26
nixonix	for influenza its different	21:26
xrogaan	brits are in deep troubles as I understand it.	21:28
nixonix	funny that curevac, maybe bnt and moderna were just lucky, and curevac was unlucky	21:28
xrogaan	lucky in having a working vaccine?	21:28
nixonix	indian variant yeah, but the share of it cant increase anymore. then the summer still affects even more, and increasing vax numbers. some day it will level and start to decrease again, indian or not	21:28
xrogaan	I don't mean the variant, but their ability to vaccinate.	21:29
nixonix	yeah, you never know for sure how efficient it is, whose solution was the right one. obviously curevac's wasnt	21:29
xrogaan	Was Institut Pasteur, in France, unlucky too?	21:29
nixonix	what do you mean, they have been faster than the rest of europe, and it isnt slowing like it is in usa, and was in israel already couple of months ago	21:30
xrogaan	They dropped out pretty quickly.	21:30
nixonix	maybe. but different tech	21:30
Brainstorm	Updates for Spain: +4197 cases (now 3.8 million), +19 deaths (now 80634) since a day ago	21:30
nixonix	pasteur institut, what was their vax again? sanofi also has pasteur in its name, they failed their first vax	21:33
xrogaan	They're postponing reopening for some reason?	21:34
nixonix	pasteur institute has their measles vector vaccine, idk how its progressing	21:35
xrogaan	How is it that an island is overrun by a variant where the mainland is mostly fine?	21:36
nixonix	it has an advantage to the kent variant. you can only stop it overtaking if you stop faster spreading variant to the border, or are lucky enough not to get it, or succeed in tracing the cases	21:37
nixonix	because however strict restrictions you do, it still has the advantage. unless those areas where the faster spreading variant is more common, have stricter and tracing succeeds too	21:38
LjL	nixonix, do you think there is any long-term possibility of predicting what mutations are most likely to occur in the future and create vaccines to target them before they actually occur in the wild?	21:39
nixonix	and obviously brits got enough cases from india. so it overtook there faster	21:39
nixonix	according to some virologist, theres limited number of beneficial mutations, and they are all known by now	21:40
LjL	that would be encouraging	21:41
nixonix	then there are some combinations with synergic effect, but they have gone through those too. so it looks like they know that mutations to expect. just how transmissible and how severe they might be, is still open	21:41
xrogaan	https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations	21:42
xrogaan	The rate seems to have slowed down?	21:42
LjL	xrogaan, because they're giving second doses	21:42
nixonix	*that=what	21:42
xrogaan	Was gonna point that out LjL :)	21:43
LjL	the "Number of vaccinations given, by report date" graph is somewhat stable	21:43
Brainstorm	New from CIDRAP: News Scan for Jun 17, 2021: COVID-19 deaths and racial disparities Diverse COVID immune response Low COVID-19 reinfection in Italy Routine vaccines during COVID-19 → https://is.gd/Qh6zlZ	21:43
LjL	with the Indian variant, they have decided to hasten second doses, because the first dose provides limited protection	21:44
xrogaan	Can't they buy more vaccine?	21:44
nixonix	still straight as an arrow for uk https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-vaccination-doses-per-capita?time=2021-01-01..latest&country=USA~RUS~DEU~GBR~FRA~ITA~CAN~DNK~ISR	21:44
nixonix	uk is one of the most pro vax countries. spain was even more pro i think..	21:45
LjL	xrogaan, pretty sure everyone is making/buying as much vaccine as they can	21:45
LjL	otherwise you could tell the entire world to "just buy more vaccine"	21:45
LjL	is israel stuck at 60% due to that debacle with no paying for some Pfizer doses?	21:47
LjL	they definitely hit a wall	21:47
LjL	or does the 100% include Palestinians who just aren't likely to be vaccinated, and/or other people who are vaccine hesitant	21:48
nixonix	i just saw some percentages, the biggest factor (bedides younger apparently less willing, unless some "motivators" like access to bars, events and abroad are used) are large share of arabs and ultra-orthodox, the last ones even less willing if i recall	21:49
LjL	ah	21:49
nixonix	russia, or was it just moscow, just mandated vaccines for those that work with customers	21:50
nixonix	2 months time to get one	21:50
LjL	In 2010 a report released by the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics showed that 8% of Israel's Jewish population defines itself as ultra-Orthodox, 12% as Orthodox, 13% as traditional-religious, 25% as traditional, and 42% as secular, on a descending scale of religiosity.	21:50
nixonix	putin said around 3 weeks ago, there wont be mandated vaccinations	21:50
LjL	Putin is about as reliable as Andrew Lee	21:51
Brainstorm	New from StatNews: Listen: The Covid vaccine booster debate, 23andMe hits Wall Street, & biotech’s call of the decade: Is 23andMe a tech company? Do we really need booster shots of Covid-19 vaccines? And what happens when mRNA goes wrong? Find out on the latest episode of "The Readout… → https://is.gd/JzSbQJ	21:53
nixonix	btw that wiki link for misinformation, i havent read it through, just thought it can be handy	22:01
nixonix	i prob dont agree with them in everything i suppose, and some subjects need more detailed information, like eg can mrna alter your dna and exactly why not	22:02
nixonix	eg it didnt have anythign about shortcuts for animal tests. or analyses on reliability of some more common "information" sites	22:03
nixonix	but it had something on ivermectin, not enough for that complex subject, but something	22:03
nixonix	bbl, on phone	22:04
Brainstorm	New from CIDRAP: Youth, Delta variant behind UK COVID surge: Mary Van Beusekom \| News Writer \| CIDRAP News Jun 17, 2021 The latest epidemiological analyis showed a 11-day doubling time, and lab studies yielded new details on vaccine protection against Delta. → https://is.gd/v0QK91	22:14
LjL	<CarlSagan_> [NIST] New Standard for Vaccine Fridges Unveiled https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2021/06/new-standard-vaccine-fridges-unveiled 2021-06-17T12:00:00	22:29
nixonix	%title https://globalnews.ca/news/7959406/covid-vaccine-mrna-astrazeneca-canada/	22:31
Brainstorm	nixonix: From globalnews.ca: mRNA COVID-19 vaccines should be 2nd dose after AstraZeneca shot: NACI - National \| Globalnews.ca	22:31
LjL	i bet they'll decide to make them the standard second shot for everyone right after my parents get AZ instead :( (again)	22:32
nixonix	they will eventually get another one on top of them, either mrna or possibly novavax that looks good too	22:34
nixonix	and possibly even updated for eg indian variant	22:35
LjL	well time is our enemy	22:35
nixonix	here when they were giving shots for 70-74 yo when there was already in news those az induced thromboses, most of those that age skipped the vaccinations and waited until they gave them mrna	22:36
nixonix	and a few age groups passed them while they had to wait	22:37
nixonix	i was also concerned the level of immunity in population that vaccinations with az would give, that wouldnt be enough. although pretty much nothing realistic number is, because maybe around 4% of ppl here have had infection	22:39
nixonix	not much more anyway. my estimation was 4% around 6 weeks ago, and at the same time IHME had the same estimation	22:39
nixonix	for israel, combined those vaccinated and who have had previous infection, using 0% chance of reinfection and 95% protection for infection from their mostly pfizer vaccines, i had the immunization for israel a bit under 80% currently	22:41
nixonix	considering the partial overlap of those groups. prob closer to 75% would be more likely though	22:42
nixonix	seems to work, for their variants and the level of restrictions they currently have	22:42
nixonix	but its not evenly spread, neither vaccinations that old people are more likely to have, and immunization from infection, that younger groups are way more likely to have	22:44
Brainstorm	New from CIDRAP: Africa's COVID-19 surge picks up speed: Lisa Schnirring \| News Editor \| CIDRAP News Jun 17, 2021 Some African countries that have vaccine are having challenges deploying it, even some that are experiencing surges. → https://is.gd/Or8CYW	22:45
nixonix	and when it spreads, younger groups have way more close contacts when people are still careful and/or there are still restrictions	22:45
nixonix	because the lack of proper multi-group models really equalling the reality, epidemiologist have been surprised again and again, for "unpredictability" of this virus	22:47
nixonix	%title https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/11/delta-variant-is-linked-to-90-of-covid-cases-in-uk	22:48
Brainstorm	nixonix: From www.theguardian.com: Delta variant causes more than 90% of new Covid cases in UK \| Coronavirus \| The Guardian	22:48
de-facto	.title https://imgur.com/a/W9NDdNu https://i.imgur.com/FJfSHWO.png src: https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/DESH/Bericht_VOC_2021-06-16.pdf?__blob=publicationFile	22:48
Brainstorm	de-facto: From imgur.com: COVID Germany: Evolution of SARS-CoV-2-VoCs - Album on Imgur	22:48
de-facto	B.1.617.2 is dominantly on the raise, currently at ~6.2% in Germany	22:48
de-facto	its pretty clear by now it will take over here too :/	22:49
de-facto	btw B.1.617.2 is the delta variant (the Indian Mutant that took over UK too)	22:49
nixonix	topol, usa, couplde of days ago "We're at ~12% infections d/t Delta and it'll be dominant (>50%) in the next few weeks"	22:50
nixonix	https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1404790585219719170	22:50
nixonix	doubling every 2 weeks in usa (although their sequencing is lacking - so maybe)	22:50
de-facto	same in UK afaik, doubling each 11 days or so with R~1.3	22:51
de-facto	delta is probably something like 40%-60% more reproductive than alpha	22:51
de-facto	i think it will take over, time to start with updating vaccines and do the trials now	22:52
nixonix	ferguson and ic team around week ago thought 40-80%, 60% being most likely	22:52
de-facto	yeah something around that, always depends on the data (and environment how much founders effect etc)	22:53
nixonix	SAGE thought 40%, and a third team thought a bit under 60%	22:53
de-facto	its pretty clear by now that it will take over the world, just like B.1 (D614G) and B.1.1.7 (alpha, UK VoC) before it	22:55
nixonix	another possibility for damaged s-proteins, besides damaged mrna, could be that they just push ribosome protein production so hard, or lengthen the production from single mrna with poly-a trickery, some of the proteins wont be intact	22:58
nixonix	it might be conscious choise between maximized efficacy and some unsignificant amount of damaged product, so that they are prefectly aware of it	22:59
de-facto	yes	22:59
de-facto	it may even depend on codon optimization	22:59
nixonix	and were to begin with, i meant	22:59
de-facto	the proteins need to fold while they are produced, so faster (codon) is not always better	22:59
de-facto	it may be required that timing for folding of the newly created protein must be "synchronized" with codon reading speed	23:00
de-facto	.title https://biosignaling.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12964-020-00642-6	23:00
Brainstorm	de-facto: From biosignaling.biomedcentral.com: A code within the genetic code: codon usage regulates co-translational protein folding \| Cell Communication and Signaling \| Full Text	23:00
nixonix	you guys obv read that newer hypothesis on az problem? damaged proteins because the method its produced is not the same cells usually do, inside nucleus	23:00
nixonix	and that researcher suggested a fix for that. also thought jnj was only partially affected, and thus for them there was less thrombosis	23:01
nixonix	the critic was, that he didnt show the mechanism that those damaged s-proteins would cause the clotting	23:02
nixonix	but there may not be one, and his hypothesis may still be right. so that it wouldnt cause the thrombosis, but still damaged product that may or may not matter	23:02
de-facto	hmm i wonder if it also would be found in Sputnik, and if so if it would appear in their surveillance system	23:03
de-facto	similar Ad.26 for primer i guess?	23:04
de-facto	if it could be determined if it either 1) also appears there at similar rates to JJJ or 2) definitely can be excluded that it appears there comparison could be a hint to the nature for a mechanism proposed	23:05
nixonix	the older theory was damaged virus particles and dna from them combining with platelets PF4 attracting antibodies, and causing platelets to clog up	23:05
de-facto	i also wonder if all of them use plasminogen promoter sequences	23:06
xrogaan	so, could the Delta Indian Variant One spread rapidly even during summer?	23:08
xrogaan	In opposition to last year where the spread was mostly fine.	23:08
de-facto	obviously it can spread in UK	23:08
de-facto	i wonder if there even could be a thing like variant specific seasonality	23:09
nixonix	sequences in dna? how?	23:09
de-facto	would be a bit of a crazy idea, but could it be that variant properties relate to mucus properties in summer/winter?	23:09
de-facto	or maybe stability in environment?	23:10
de-facto	but that would be less likely i guess, geometry is same, etc	23:10
de-facto	B.1.1.7 = winter, B.1.617.2 = summer?	23:10
de-facto	hmm maybe too crazy	23:10
nixonix	dengue has four types and all the problems that come with them	23:11
de-facto	oh dont start to imply original antigenic sin alike mechanisms, that would be the horror	23:12
nixonix	flu has 3, but not similar problems like ADE from one type of infection and reinfection then with another. and the same with vaccines	23:12
de-facto	so far we have not seen any of that in SARS-CoV-2, updated vaccines (B.1.351) produced highly neutralizing antibodies against the updated VoC just fine	23:13
nixonix	they thought, the first flu you get during your first 1 or 2 years, you are better protected afterwards for that type. not sure how confirmed yet	23:15
nixonix	flu, A and B i suppose	23:15
de-facto	.title https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.08.447308v1	23:16
nixonix	maybe if you get sars2 similarly at very early age, its reinfections will be just sniffles from then on	23:16
Brainstorm	de-facto: From www.biorxiv.org: The ChAdOx1 vectored vaccine, AZD2816, induces strong immunogenicity against SARS-CoV-2 B.1.351 and other variants of concern in preclinical studies \| bioRxiv	23:16
nixonix	and telomeres, who knows, maybe it will lengthen them	23:16
de-facto	lol anti-aging ?	23:16
nixonix	anti-aging could become from protecting or healing mitochondrios. something like that they have been studying	23:20
nixonix	or then stepping in from later stage with antioxidants	23:20
nixonix	what was that "moscow variant", did they release key mutations?	23:23
Brainstorm	New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Previous infection with coronavirus does not necessarily protect against Covid in the longer term, especially when caused by new variants of concern, a study on healthcare workers suggests. → https://is.gd/XYy2QZ	23:26
nixonix	still lots of infections in south america. but when curevac will have new trials in the fall, it may take time to get enough cases	23:28
nixonix	%title https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/16/business/taiwan-china-biontech-vaccine.html	23:29
Brainstorm	nixonix: From www.nytimes.com: Taiwan Accuses China of Blocking Access to BioNTech Vaccines - The New York Times	23:29
nixonix	outside covax program:	23:30
nixonix	%title https://thediplomat.com/2021/06/japan-steps-up-its-vaccine-diplomacy-in-southeast-asia/	23:31
Brainstorm	nixonix: From thediplomat.com: Japan Steps Up Its ‘Vaccine Diplomacy’ in Southeast Asia – The Diplomat	23:31
nixonix	"Superintendent David Ryan announced the district is conducting an audit into the marking of students' hands at the Exeter High School prom to designate vaccination status for COVID-19	23:32
nixonix	magic marker though, not with tattoo	23:32
nixonix	or a magnetic micro chip	23:33
de-facto	what russian variant?	23:34
de-facto	.title https://www.reuters.com/world/moscow-covid-19-surge-probably-due-infectious-variants-mayor-2021-06-17/	23:34
Brainstorm	de-facto: From www.reuters.com: Moscow facing new aggressive coronavirus variant, mayor says \| Reuters	23:34
de-facto	:/	23:34
Brainstorm	Updates for Germany: +597 cases (now 3.7 million) since 19 hours ago — Canada: +31 deaths (now 26009) since 22 hours ago	23:35
nixonix	.title https://riotimesonline.com/brazil-news/miscellaneous/covid-19/pharmaceutical-company-tells-brazils-covid-cpi-that-it-billed-8-times-more-in-2020-with-covid-kit-drugs/	23:37
Brainstorm	nixonix: From riotimesonline.com: Pharma company tells Brazil's Covid CPI that it billed 8 times more in 2020 with "Covid kit" drugs \| The Rio Times	23:37
nixonix	ivermectin, hcq, azithromycin, you guessed it already...	23:37
de-facto	.title https://virological.org/t/spread-of-endemic-sars-cov-2-lineages-in-russia/689/2	23:38
Brainstorm	de-facto: From virological.org: Spread of endemic SARS-CoV-2 lineages in Russia - #2 by g.bazykin - nCoV-2019 Genomic Epidemiology - Virological	23:38
nixonix	.397 isnt on VOI lists?	23:41
nixonix	.title https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-curevac-production/curevac-may-let-contractors-make-rival-vaccines-if-own-shot-fails-ceo-idUSL5N2NZ4UE	23:43
Brainstorm	nixonix: From www.reuters.com: CureVac may let contractors make rival vaccines if own shot fails - CEO \| Reuters	23:43
nixonix	crimes increased a lot in hk during the pandemic https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia/covid-19-pandemic-crime-surge-hong-kong-devil-breath-cash-scam-15032056	23:48
nixonix	.title https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2021-06/ifbo-cbs061721.php	23:58
Brainstorm	nixonix: From www.eurekalert.org: Controlling brain states with a ray of light \| EurekAlert! Science News	23:58

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