| de-facto | on Tuesday 2021-06-29 | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| de-facto | "All ticket holders will need to have either a negative COVID-19 test or proof of full vaccination - two doses received 14 days before the fixture." | 00:00 |
| de-facto | hmm what was the efficacy of BNT162b2 against delta? 88%? | 00:01 |
| LjL | ComirnatyNerit, yes but it's a substantial portion and if someone gets COVID or dies, they know whether they were vaccinated or not | 00:01 |
| ComirnatyNerit | Shouldn't that be enough to bring R below 1? | 00:01 |
| LjL | nah | 00:02 |
| ComirnatyNerit | I suppose the virus moves much slower among vaccinated people. | 00:02 |
| LjL | remember they were talking about 60% as a lower boundary for herd immunity with the *original* variant | 00:02 |
| LjL | hell knows what's the herd immunity boundary with current variants, including Delta | 00:02 |
| LjL | it got higher with the UK variant first | 00:02 |
| LjL | i'd wager than even with a 100% effective vaccine (against transmission too) you'd need 80% or so by now | 00:03 |
| LjL | so if Pfizer is 88% effective (i think it was 75%, maybe 88% was against hospitalization, from memory), we better finish deploying it soon, before we have a variant that needs 90% | 00:03 |
| LjL | and that is also part of my antipathy towards AstraZeneca, it's just not good enough for herd immunity | 00:04 |
| ComirnatyNerit | I need to sleep | 00:04 |
| ComirnatyNerit | goodnight | 00:04 |
| LjL | i still understand enough german to understand his quit message, yay | 00:05 |
| de-facto | Assuming averaged properties in a immuno-naive unaware population and Delta R0~6 we would get endemic 1 == R = R0 ( 1 - v e ) for vaccinating v = ( R0 - R ) / ( e R0 ) = ( 6 - 1 ) / ( 0.88 6 ) ~ 0.95 of population which is as unrealistic as an efficacy against transmission of e ~ 0.88 | 00:06 |
| LjL | Det fanns en gång ett land. Och jag har levt där. När man frågar mig, hur det var - det var den bästa tiden i mitt liv, för jag var ung och kär. | 00:07 |
| LjL | de-facto, that's so encouraging | 00:07 |
| de-facto | sorry but i get just plain angry when i read about that soccer stadiums filled | 00:08 |
| LjL | :( | 00:08 |
| de-facto | reducing attack rates to 1/8 for symptomatic endpoints is not enough to prevent spread for such gigantic 60k participants events | 00:09 |
| de-facto | not even to begin to speak of all the fans outside the stadium | 00:09 |
| LjL | but i ask, what were experts on when they were saying that vaccine efficacy of 95% was unimaginably great because we were expecting maybe 50-60%? | 00:09 |
| LjL | was it just a lie, or had they completely failed to foresee that variants would emerge, or did they do their maths wrong...? | 00:09 |
| LjL | if 50-60% would have been good then with a couple of vaccines that initially delivered 95%, why are we not thinking about something other than COVID by now | 00:10 |
| LjL | i think right now agencies (WHO, FDA, EMA, ETC) should up the minimum vaccine efficacy they accept for EUA from 50%. 50% is just ridiculous | 00:11 |
| LjL | right now in theory any vaccine that has 51% efficacy can be approved | 00:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Mass vaccination success in brazilian City Shows promise of low-efficacy vaccines → https://is.gd/KceUbY | 00:11 |
| LjL | uh yeah Brainstorm except there are also a bunch of examples that show failure of those vaccines | 00:12 |
| LjL | see that comes just at the right time | 00:12 |
| LjL | how can you say a city is "ready to reopen" because 95% of adults received... a 50% efficacious vaccine+! | 00:12 |
| LjL | let's rename it to Variant Breeder City | 00:13 |
| nixonix | for those just over 50% efficacy, i think its mostly about if those vaccinated eg sputnik or somechinese vacc will get an entry to eu without tests | 00:13 |
| nixonix | nobody wants to use some 55% vaccine here | 00:13 |
| nixonix | also whats the efficacy of az or jnj vs 617.2, when that is dominant? still over 50% for symptomatic infection? | 00:14 |
| LjL | also it says "The preliminary results of the vaccination program showed an 80 percent drop in symptomatic Covid-19 cases" | 00:14 |
| de-facto | politicians don't understand such things, they don't even understand that it will make them look bad if they allow things that obviously will lead to increased incidence | 00:14 |
| LjL | does that by definition mean that they were wrong during the trial and the vaccine is 80% efficacious? | 00:14 |
| de-facto | how else can they be like vaccinated == recovered == tested ? | 00:14 |
| de-facto | that is beyond stupid imho | 00:15 |
| nixonix | jesus, that serrana thing again... | 00:15 |
| LjL | nixonix, i think possibly still over 50%, but barely | 00:15 |
| LjL | and we are phasing those out but the UK is still using AZ a lot | 00:15 |
| LjL | and i question that | 00:15 |
| nixonix | no, it was 4 different areas they divided the city. and they prob had massive amount of immunity already there | 00:15 |
| nixonix | about infections | 00:15 |
| nixonix | from infections | 00:16 |
| nixonix | that was misreported in media, thats why "jesus, again"... | 00:17 |
| nixonix | i think they are currently talking about using mrna for second dose there. or was it just in canada | 00:18 |
| nixonix | those that got az | 00:18 |
| LjL | nixonix, we do that in Italy | 00:18 |
| LjL | people younger than 60 who got AZ as first dose will get mRNA as second dose | 00:18 |
| de-facto | same here | 00:18 |
| LjL | and apparently also our PM, who is >70, got it, because he got an antibody test that showed his AZ had poor results | 00:19 |
| nixonix | they have done it here too, but we dont have categorical decicion for that | 00:19 |
| LjL | got it / will get it shortly | 00:19 |
| nixonix | ...sion | 00:19 |
| LjL | i don't think it's happening in the UK, though. they are studying it, but i don't think they are doing it on the population level | 00:19 |
| nixonix | why its sometimes ..cion sometimes ..sion | 00:19 |
| LjL | hehe | 00:20 |
| LjL | nixonix, because they were two different suffixes in latin, -tio(nem) and -cio(nem) | 00:20 |
| LjL | they sounded different, in english they sound the same but they are still written the way they were in latin | 00:21 |
| nixonix | K417N in indian variant should remove the salt bridge between RBD and ACE2, instabilizing it. and the same between RBD and several monoclonal antibodies, making them less efficient | 00:21 |
| nixonix | i mean the new indian, delta plus | 00:21 |
| LjL | but i don't think there are very many -cion words | 00:21 |
| LjL | nixonix, so it would be less aggressive but also less susceptible to existing antibodies? | 00:22 |
| nixonix | yeah, less binding affinity to both | 00:22 |
| nixonix | so it should spread more easily among those with immunity, but less among those that dont have | 00:22 |
| nixonix | there might be some effects that come from combinations, due to some allosteric effects or something perhaps, but that single substitution should have that effect | 00:23 |
| de-facto | yeah K417N may be a good trade off for the virus in population with high seroprevalence against ancestor strains, even if it means less efficient binding to ACE2 its additionally gained immuno-evasive capabilities may lead to overall better reproduction in such population (yet potentially less in immuno-naive populations) | 00:24 |
| de-facto | .title https://covariants.org/variants/S.K417 | 00:26 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From covariants.org: CoVariants | 00:26 |
| nixonix | was this here: | 00:34 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-vaccine-myocarditis-teens-cdc-meeting.html | 00:34 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.livescience.com: COVID-19 vaccine benefits 'clearly' outweigh risks of rare myocarditis in teens, CDC says | Live Science | 00:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from https://covid19.specops.network : Make some key resources bold: Just experimenting with this for now. I don't have a clear idea of which resources should be bold. They should be key, and they should probably provide extensive information about their topic or sub-topic, and/or be portals to access further information. → https://is.gd/X8xE5Y | 00:42 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Recent Commits to links:master: Make some key resources bold ( https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/commit/ae2622050e8c449d5f6ed573f774d111d0bc2d14 ) | 00:43 | |
| nixonix | current COVID-19 vaccines lead to selective expression of just the spike protein, which fails to antagonize IFN-I. Hence, IFN-I production by the vaccines might be appreciably higher than following SARS-CoV-2 infection itself, which could then explain why young people tend to have significant side effects to COVID-19 vaccines yet can be | 00:51 |
| nixonix | asymptomatic during SARS-CoV-2 infection | 00:51 |
| nixonix | i didnt find much concerns about multiple doses of mrna vaccines. but not much support either, that it wasnt a problem | 00:52 |
| nixonix | it seems to be something that theres not much information available atm | 00:53 |
| nixonix | there was a 3rd dose study on immunocompromised patients, but thats different ofc | 00:53 |
| nixonix | also i didnt find margaret liu saying that about mrna vaccines. maybe it was something she said some years ago | 00:55 |
| nixonix | heres the same text, as a different translation: https://breakinglatest.news/health/covid-pay-attention-to-third-doses-better-not-to-continue-with-rna-vaccines/ | 00:58 |
| nixonix | For SARS-CoV-2 infection, it was mentioned earlier that IFN-I levels are low, reflecting antagonism by the virus. By contrast, IFN-I levels are generally high in influenza infection (3). This difference may explain why “flu-like” symptoms are prominent for influenza but usually mild during SARS-CoV-2 infection | 01:00 |
| nixonix | what was that interferon study again, that found that for some type of interferons those lacking it got more severe symptoms? anyone remembers, and what ifn it was? | 01:01 |
| nixonix | it was "autoantibodies against type I IFN-α2 and IFN-ω in about 10% of patients with severe COVID-19 pneumonia | 01:04 |
| nixonix | Delayed IFN-I response contributes to pathological inflammation, whereas early IFN-I response controls viral replication. Therefore, we propose that anti-inflammatory strategies targeting not only inflammatory cytokines, including TNF, IL-1β, and IL-6, but also pathological IFN-I response need to be investigated for the treatment of patients with | 01:10 |
| nixonix | severe COVID-19 | 01:10 |
| nixonix | so ifn-I response can be both beneficial and have antiviral effect, and harmful, depending on patient and timing of it | 01:11 |
| nixonix | and about whether several doses of mrna vaccine would be a problem, there doesnt seem to be much found about, which would suggest that likely not. or isnt something that couldnt be avoided by tweaking the vaccines | 01:13 |
| nixonix | but lets see, ill keep following the subject | 01:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from Derek Lowe: @lisamjarvis: RT by @Dereklowe: With this first data from Intellia for in vivo CRISPR gene editing, a good day to revisit @RLCscienceboss's story on the development of lipid nanoparticle technology (gotta get that 🧬✂️ to its target!): [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/9iV0ZE | 01:14 |
| nixonix | coincidentally i just read about possible improvements on lipid nanoparticles. in the end of the article: | 01:18 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/12/messenger-rna-gave-us-covid-19-vaccine-will-it-treat-diseases-too | 01:18 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.sciencemag.org: Messenger RNA gave us a COVID-19 vaccine. Will it treat diseases, too? | Science | AAAS | 01:19 |
| nixonix | ah the same company mentioned there too, Intellia | 01:23 |
| nixonix | in that article i linked, in the end of it, is one solution decreasing the possible accumulating reactogenicity of repeated doses. swapping the cholesterol | 01:25 |
| nixonix | and it also had one of those rare mentionings about mrna repeated doses possibly being a problem | 01:27 |
| nixonix | But when repeated doses of mRNA are needed to resupply a protein over a lifetime, side effects—potentially due to the buildup of lipid nanoparticles in the body or an inflammatory response to foreign RNA—loom larger. People might accept a day or two of soreness and fever after getting a COVID-19 vaccine, says Ann Barbier, chief medical officer | 01:27 |
| nixonix | at the mRNA therapeutics company Translate Bio. But “if you experience this every 3 weeks or so for the rest of your life, that’s a different proposition.” | 01:27 |
| nixonix | so that "but lets find out, another day" - done. partially anyway | 01:28 |
| Guest32 | hello | 02:21 |
| lavadonut | hi\ | 02:21 |
| Guest32 | https://write.as/ocalysr8h5t9x.md god be with you *~ | 02:21 |
| lavadonut | definitely clicking that | 02:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV: Delta plus India: Scientists say too early to tell risk of Covid-19 variant - India's health ministry says studies showed that the so-called Delta plus variant - also known as AY.1 - spreads more easily, binds more easily to lung cells and is potentially resistant to monoclonal antibody therapy, → https://is.gd/wyT3tQ | 02:24 |
| Guest32 | here's what they didnt' tell you- coronavirus has conserved a mutation site since at least the early 90s which causes the virus to fold up and be inactivated by a common component in coconut oil | 02:26 |
| lavadonut | really? | 02:28 |
| Guest32 | https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-84850-1 | 02:32 |
| Guest32 | https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200924/Linoleic-acid-binds-SARS-CoV-2-spike-protein.aspx | 02:32 |
| Guest32 | https://www.ukri.org/news/new-discovery-in-coronavirus-structure-could-stop-virus-in-its-tracks/ | 02:32 |
| Guest32 | https://www.wikipathways.org/index.php/Pathway:WP4853 | 02:33 |
| lavadonut | things like that can improve outcomes, but not in a major way for most people | 02:33 |
| Guest32 | actually they prevent infection | 02:33 |
| Guest32 | entirely | 02:33 |
| Guest32 | wheras the vaccine only slightly improves outcomes, but only by programming the part of the immune system that can be programmed- to the detriment of the innate immune system | 02:34 |
| Guest32 | turns out nerds are the big gay, your mom was right, you need more sunshine | 02:34 |
| lavadonut | how is it detrimental to the immune system? | 02:34 |
| Guest32 | if you understood how the immune system works instead of trusting big pharma, you'd understand that it's more complex than just vaccine in immunity out | 02:35 |
| lavadonut | then can you explain how it's detrimental to the immune system? | 02:36 |
| Guest32 | the immune system's innate component is downregulated and inhibited by the programming of the adaptive immune system | 02:36 |
| Guest32 | your innate response grows weaker | 02:36 |
| Guest32 | previous exposure can prime the adaptive immune system, new serotypes can lead to the innate system being hijacked- this is how dengue fever works | 02:37 |
| Guest32 | it's the same for exposure or vaccination, so vaccination is not unusually harmful in this regard | 02:37 |
| Guest32 | the adjuvants used in the vaccine can also lead to deterimental immune responses that can lead to life threatening allergic reactions later on | 02:38 |
| lavadonut | isn't dengue unusual among viruses in how subsequent infections are more severe? how do we know covid19 works that way? | 02:38 |
| Guest32 | anyway i linked the scientific research, you do whatever you want | 02:38 |
| Guest32 | the chinese government already did mouse studies showing sars whole virus vaccination resulted in enhanced ADE later on | 02:39 |
| Guest32 | but i didnt make my paper intending to win over disciples of big pharma or lefty brainlets, you do whatever you feel is best for you brah, thicc chad out | 02:39 |
| lavadonut | which one is your paper? | 02:40 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for El Salvador: +1088 cases (now 78572) since 14 hours ago — United Kingdom: +11735 cases (now 4.7 million), +12 deaths (now 128227) since 22 hours ago — France: +8 deaths (now 111044) since 22 hours ago — Netherlands: +268 cases (now 1.7 million) since 22 hours ago | 02:40 |
| Guest32 | the first thing i linked | 02:46 |
| lavadonut | are you anna, aleksandra, or matthias? | 02:47 |
| Guest32 | you're a critic and i really dont deal with critics. i said the first thing i linked | 02:51 |
| lavadonut | i thought at least 50% of being a scientist is dealing with critics | 02:53 |
| Shulginaut | https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/25/opinion/coronavirus-lab.html | 02:56 |
| Shulginaut | looks like I'm officially not "on the fringe" anymore | 02:56 |
| lavadonut | i always thought it was a(n unintentional) lab leak | 03:02 |
| Shulginaut | so did I | 03:02 |
| Shulginaut | there were some leaks of intel but they were during the Trump admin and came from Mike Pompeo so I denied their veracity | 03:03 |
| lavadonut | what are the odds of a novel coronavirus outbreak in the middle of a city housing a lab that studies coronaviruses, and it having NOT originated from the lab? | 03:03 |
| lavadonut | herp derp | 03:03 |
| Shulginaut | the answer is complex tho | 03:03 |
| LjL | they are not really computable | 03:03 |
| Shulginaut | because of the wetmarket, and because intermediate hosts, and that Wuhan is a hub | 03:03 |
| LjL | i think it's likely it came from the lab, but i feel the "what are the odds it didn't" argument is a bit misleading as it is a rhetorical argument masquerading as a probability argument | 03:04 |
| Shulginaut | Wuhan is geographically like St. Louis is to the US, or Berlin to Germany, or Madrid to Spain | 03:04 |
| lavadonut | still 100% fishy | 03:04 |
| Shulginaut | The even greater problem is that I'm finding some suspicious shit about US involvement, and it centers on people I have trusted up till now | 03:05 |
| Shulginaut | thru the pandemic, to give us epidemiological facts | 03:05 |
| Shulginaut | twiv guests included | 03:05 |
| lavadonut | don't trust anyone | 03:05 |
| Shulginaut | so there's some seedy potential confluence | 03:05 |
| Guest32 | i think jon oliver said it best | 03:05 |
| Shulginaut | perhaps the US did research which was given to China, and China leveraged that research one extra step beyond what the US researchers would have ecer considered | 03:06 |
| lavadonut | the enemy of your enemy is not your friend | 03:06 |
| Guest32 | the fact there was a coronavirus weapons lab right next door isnt just a smoking gun, its the chocolate factory | 03:06 |
| lavadonut | necessarily | 03:06 |
| Shulginaut | so... Ralph Baric. | 03:06 |
| Shulginaut | anyone have info? | 03:06 |
| LjL | Guest32, can you point me to a specific paper that makes the claim coconut oil can actually prevent infection in humans, ideally a random controlled trial? i see that you linked a paper about certain polyunsaturated fats inhibiting virus binding and cellular entry, but in vitro experiments don't automatically translate to direct applications to human, and that particular study even says that *further in vitro experiments* are needed to validate it | 03:06 |
| lavadonut | LjL, what ever happened to the AAAAaaaAAAA guy? | 03:06 |
| Guest32 | can you prove vaccine prevents infection in humans? | 03:07 |
| Guest32 | ideally a random controlled trial? | 03:07 |
| LjL | i really don't like "what they didn't tell you" rhetoric. who didn't tell us? coming here and being smug acting like you're someone who can tell us something no one else did is unlikely to impress anyone | 03:07 |
| LjL | lavadonut, he's still here, maybe not panicking at this particular time :P | 03:07 |
| lavadonut | did he get vaccinated? | 03:07 |
| Guest32 | The people promoting the vaccine won't tell you that simple lauric acid inhibits viral replication of multiple specie in vitro which is well established already for other viral serrotypes | 03:07 |
| LjL | Guest32, uh, yes, i can, with any of the published phase 3 papers on random controlled trials for the vaccines that have received an emergency/conditional approval | 03:07 |
| LjL | the papers about them are all in the topic, do you want me to point you to one for a particular vaccine? Pfizer? Moderna? | 03:08 |
| Guest32 | I'm pretty sure most if not all of their productive outcomes suggest that severe infection is prevented- not that the vaccine prevents infection. | 03:08 |
| LjL | Guest32, this is warning, i will not let you continue with rhetoric like "the people promoting the vaccine won't tell you..." | 03:08 |
| LjL | if you want to tell us things, just do it, ideally back them with source, but no shitty rhetoric | 03:08 |
| lavadonut | why would you run an irc channel if you don't want to grab a bag of popcorn and watch the shitty rhetoric? :'D | 03:09 |
| LjL | <Guest32> you're a critic and i really dont deal with critics. i said the first thing i linked ← also if you can't/won't deal with criticism, you will not have constructive discourse here | 03:09 |
| LjL | lavadonut, because there's more than enough non-shitty rhetoric in this channel, although sometimes it's too good for me to understand it | 03:10 |
| lavadonut | if you can't understand it, that doesn't sound very good to me | 03:11 |
| LjL | Guest32, the primary outcomes, for most if not all vaccines i know of, are about preventing *symptomatic* disease. that doesn't mean "severe infection", it just means you have symptoms. iirc only Novavax had a slightly different definition that involved "severe" symptoms, but in practice two symptoms were enough to be considered. also, AstraZeneca actually took weekly PCRs so you can see data about whether infection takes place, and I don't know if they followed | 03:12 |
| LjL | up on that but Pfizer meant to antibody-test their participants with an N-protein test (so it can distinguish between previous infection and vaccination) to determine efficacy against asymptomatic infection | 03:12 |
| Shulginaut | https://twitter.com/VishnuFNO/status/1401550946916728836 | 03:12 |
| Guest32 | I didn't come here for constructive discourse. I came here to promote coconut oil and hope to people who question the mainstream rhetoric that mRNA-1273 works by the principle of adaptive immune priming and who believe that delta+ variants will result in profound mortality among previously vaccinated individuals. But I can see this is a bastion of | 03:12 |
| Guest32 | "freedom". You all enjoy your peloton subscriptions now, chad out. | 03:12 |
| Guest32 | I see your studies | 03:12 |
| Shulginaut | Ralph Baric says he can engineer an escape mutant easily | 03:12 |
| Shulginaut | with 100% certainty | 03:12 |
| Shulginaut | then explains how | 03:12 |
| LjL | in any case it's very likely, although difficult to show in practice (but there is a study on household that does show it a bit) that when vaccines result in asymptomatic infection only, there will also not be transmission | 03:12 |
| Shulginaut | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvbn_NDSvm8 | 03:13 |
| Shulginaut | GVN: Forefront of Virology COVID-19 Webinar Featuring Dr. Ralph Baric | 03:13 |
| lavadonut | loooooooool @ that quote | 03:14 |
| Shulginaut | Timestamp 38:30 | 03:14 |
| lavadonut | pls put that in the topic | 03:14 |
| Shulginaut | Ralph is a JASON | 03:14 |
| lavadonut | the kick message | 03:14 |
| LjL | lavadonut, topic space is precious, i think i'm already almost out of space ;( | 03:14 |
| Shulginaut | I am concerned he aided China with dual-use tech | 03:14 |
| Shulginaut | apparently without considering the global consequences if they weaponized | 03:15 |
| Shulginaut | Vince Racaniello, an otherwise good guy, dismisses any talk of China weaponizing anything | 03:15 |
| LjL | Shulginaut, do you have any evidence he cooperated with China at all? saying on YouTube that you can create an escape mutant... well, I'm sure many people smarter than I am could do that in the lab | 03:15 |
| Shulginaut | I guess scientists have this massive blind spot when it comes to politics | 03:15 |
| Shulginaut | No | 03:15 |
| Shulginaut | chiefly because UNC is denying FOIA requests. | 03:16 |
| Shulginaut | I can show that | 03:16 |
| Shulginaut | https://twitter.com/pricklyresearch/status/1401955500267347970 | 03:16 |
| Shulginaut | FWIW I'm pro-0democracy and dont want this to be true, but it bears investigation, since he apparently let them know how to fully clone SARS | 03:17 |
| LjL | well, if Baric Lab actually are responsible for this pandemic, the good news is that their twitter account is being followed by Brainstorm, so if they ever admit it, we'll be the first to know ;) | 03:17 |
| Shulginaut | https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2015.18787 | 03:18 |
| Shulginaut | "Engineered bat virus stirs debate over risky research" | 03:19 |
| LjL | i agree in general that the hypothesis of a lab leak warrants more investigation than just the little theater the UN delegation has done. but i think that'd be hard to obtain so any weaponization claims i fear would be exceedingly hard to prove (and i don't personally believe this was an attempt at a weapon, but that's just my feeling) | 03:19 |
| LjL | yes, there was gain of function or "near" gain of function research being done, so the lab is a very compelling culprit | 03:19 |
| Shulginaut | Twenty-nine people logged on to a secure State Department video call that lasted three hours. The scientific experts included: | 03:19 |
| Shulginaut | Ralph Baric, Alina Chan, David Relman | 03:19 |
| Shulginaut | https://twitter.com/BillyBostickson/status/1400496980690825218 | 03:19 |
| Shulginaut | there are two summaries linked in that tweet | 03:20 |
| Shulginaut | I heard Ralph tear up on TWIV when recounting the death tolls... I don't think he had evil intent personally... I do think he's too smart and underestimates how his work could be weaponized, however. | 03:21 |
| Shulginaut | I believe I read somewhere he visited the BSL3 in Wuhan. | 03:21 |
| Shulginaut | id have to dig to find that tho | 03:21 |
| Shulginaut | I mean, Vince went. | 03:21 |
| Shulginaut | hard to think Ralph didnt | 03:21 |
| Shulginaut | Authoritarian dictatorships have a "one gun kills all" approach to whistleblowers | 03:22 |
| Shulginaut | really bad for France and US and other western countries to help boostrap China in this regard imo, and that opinion is shared by actual working epidemiologists and virologists | 03:23 |
| LjL | i don't always believe in assuming stupidity over malice, but i think if there was some slightly scary gain of function research being done (which could be legitimately done for a number of benign purposes, although i think it merits public debate over the risks and benefit), an accidental leak is far from an unlikely think to happen in a lab, even a presumably secure ones. as i'm sure you know, viruses are very small :P | 03:23 |
| Shulginaut | yes but here's the problem | 03:23 |
| Shulginaut | China is not cooperating | 03:23 |
| Shulginaut | so whether it was a mistake or malicious, it's going to happen again, and with increasing frequency. | 03:23 |
| lavadonut | what do they gain from cooperating? | 03:23 |
| LjL | at this point after a year and a half, even if they nominally cooperated, couldn't they probably show just about anything they wanted to show? | 03:23 |
| Shulginaut | With no ramifications for China's stonewalling | 03:23 |
| Shulginaut | I read somewhere that the wetmarket was ruled out as the source | 03:24 |
| lavadonut | no one ever owned up to the H1N1 leak either | 03:24 |
| Shulginaut | I did find it suspicious that SCMP went full-on critical of wetmarket activity right at the start | 03:24 |
| LjL | i vaguely remember from last year that some cases hadn't been traced back to the wet market | 03:24 |
| Shulginaut | The first guy in the US had no wetmarket overlap | 03:25 |
| Shulginaut | the man who returned to Seattle from China | 03:25 |
| Shulginaut | everything smells fishy, and I am NOT in bed with the USGOP on this. Still, being against authoritarianism when it inflicts pandemics is a matter of public health, yknow | 03:25 |
| Shulginaut | [US GOP also a scary authoritarian group] | 03:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Toronto sets North American record for most COVID-19 vaccine doses administered in a day at clinic → https://is.gd/9ImbhJ | 03:26 |
| LjL | i think one problem with giving the lab leak (accidental, i really don't want to get into intentional theories myself) more widespread credence and acceptability (depending on the period, it basically couldn't be discussed openly without ridicule) is that the people most qualified to figure out what might *actually* have happened are virologists and similar, whose work and livelihood depends on having those very virology labs available and open. what would happen | 03:26 |
| LjL | to their work if the world found out this was a Chernobyl event except much worse, and it could happen again and again as lab leaks are probabilitistically inevitable...? | 03:26 |
| lavadonut | i mean | 03:27 |
| lavadonut | not keeping the virology lab in the middle of a major city would be a pretty good start | 03:27 |
| LjL | not really | 03:27 |
| Shulginaut | LjL - the "Proximal Origin" paper oft cited says the wetmarket was not the source | 03:28 |
| LjL | apart from the fact that iirc it wasn't *in the middle*, there were some offices close to the wet market, but the actual lab was outside the city proper | 03:28 |
| Shulginaut | attributed to Robert F. Garry | 03:28 |
| lavadonut | virology labs need to be at the peak of some remote mountain | 03:28 |
| lavadonut | obv | 03:28 |
| Shulginaut | yeah its northwest of Wuhan, isnt it? | 03:28 |
| lavadonut | or on some island | 03:28 |
| Shulginaut | lavadonut US has such an island | 03:28 |
| LjL | but if a serious pathogen escapes, we've been shown numerous times now that just a couple of people can quickly make it dangerous to the whole population even if the initial transmissions don't happen in a big city | 03:28 |
| lavadonut | smart | 03:28 |
| LjL | lavadonut, and where are people who work in them supposed to live? | 03:29 |
| Shulginaut | I mean, what do I know? could be several. But there's at least one. | 03:29 |
| lavadonut | on the island | 03:29 |
| lavadonut | people do research in remote places all the time | 03:29 |
| lavadonut | e z | 03:29 |
| Shulginaut | The problem with China is, it could have escaped by any means, and there would always be a massive coverup. | 03:29 |
| lavadonut | small price to pay for not having a global pandemic | 03:29 |
| Shulginaut | A sub-director of the lab could have sold some monkeys for extra money. | 03:29 |
| Shulginaut | thats easily imaginable | 03:30 |
| Shulginaut | rich chinese pay top yen for dick pills made from strange animals | 03:30 |
| lavadonut | if there can be observatories in antarctica, there can be virology labs | 03:30 |
| LjL | lavadonut, yeah, okay, that's one possibility... if you were a virologist working in such a lab and you had a choice between telling the world "hey, look, it's QUITE LIKELY that this came from the lab, we should put these labs and their workers on remote islands", or just shut up and nod when people say "yeah it probably came from the wet market via a pangolin"... what would you do? | 03:30 |
| Shulginaut | *yuan | 03:30 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Isle of Man: +3 cases (now 1608) since 23 hours ago | 03:30 |
| LjL | it's not a rhetorical question, as i'm sure many people would try to tell the truth as they realize the danger and implications | 03:30 |
| LjL | but i think a fair few wouldn't | 03:30 |
| Shulginaut | especially people big on the career train | 03:31 |
| Shulginaut | thats huge motivation | 03:31 |
| LjL | and public opinion may be swayed towards one theory or the other just by which majority of researchers pushes which hypothesis | 03:31 |
| LjL | similar to how elections are often decided by the undecided | 03:31 |
| LjL | if enough researchers say "it's obviously natural", the ones who would like to say otherwise now not only risk to end up living on an island if they contradict them, but they also risk being ostracized | 03:32 |
| LjL | i push this point because to me just intuitively it's more cogent than whatever China may be hiding per se | 03:32 |
| Shulginaut | heres the problem with "its natural" | 03:32 |
| Shulginaut | Ralph cloned it | 03:32 |
| Shulginaut | and IIRC did it in segments | 03:32 |
| LjL | i don't know what they're hiding, i'm not an intelligence agent, i'm afraid i have no chance to really know. but this is common sense. | 03:32 |
| Shulginaut | so you can just CRISPr? out bits | 03:33 |
| Shulginaut | and refine your lab virus till it looks perfectly natural | 03:33 |
| Shulginaut | The worst case scenario is: Baric et al helped gain of function and showed how to replicate anything in that family | 03:33 |
| Shulginaut | maybe even went there and showed them how | 03:34 |
| LjL | maybe. i won't find that a compelling argument, personally, unless the "accidental leak after benign, if dangerous, gain-of-function research was done" hypothesis is ruled out first. i agree with you that if FOIA requests are being denied or such, that is irksome. | 03:34 |
| Shulginaut | then he left and they used those techniques to weaponize it | 03:34 |
| Shulginaut | and either it leaked, or they let it loose on purpose | 03:34 |
| Shulginaut | since so many people came down with it in China first, I'm going with mistake | 03:34 |
| LjL | yeah, there is that, and their vaccines are sort of meh, too | 03:34 |
| Shulginaut | smart release would have been way more subtle and sinister | 03:35 |
| Shulginaut | Coronaviruses apparently faced some difficulty in cloning, but eventually a system was developed by Paul Masters in 1992. After that, a more sophisticated cloning method using cDNA was created by Ralph Baric. | 03:35 |
| LjL | that's one reason why i don't easily buy the "weapon" theory over the "whoopsie" theory | 03:35 |
| Shulginaut | https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/jvi.66.4.1841-1848.1992?permanently=true& | 03:36 |
| Shulginaut | I don't know why they'd have a lab dedicated to coronaviruses and not be doing biowarfare research with them | 03:36 |
| Shulginaut | it's china | 03:36 |
| Shulginaut | when they have too much lead to dispose, they put it in the water the cows drink, then people drink lead-tainted milk. And they know it, and they're fine with it. | 03:37 |
| Shulginaut | its hard to comprehend the national mindset there, flung as it has from one extreme to another | 03:37 |
| Shulginaut | you cannot put Deng anywhere near Mao in ideology, but both ruled with iron fists and killed their opposition until it was a whole nation, plus one man at the top preaching that individuality was the enemy. The Supreme Individual said so. | 03:38 |
| Shulginaut | looking at the Koreas, seems to be endemic to the region | 03:39 |
| Shulginaut | even South Koreans swoon with delight in the face of Totalitarian cult figures. | 03:39 |
| LjL | I don't want to make this too political... but there certainly was a time when a lot of Europe was "swooning with delights" at so-called statesmen, also known as dictators or candidate dictators, and this sympathy for authoritarianism wasn't limited to the countries that actually ended up losing the war. I guess there are phases. | 03:42 |
| LjL | maybe China's phase has been pretty long :P | 03:42 |
| Shulginaut | its worse than that | 03:52 |
| Shulginaut | china's not capable of anything like representative democracy | 03:52 |
| Shulginaut | all it knows are empires | 03:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: WHO urges fully vaccinated people to continue to wear masks as delta Covid variant spreads → https://is.gd/OeGTga | 04:08 |
| Shulginaut | https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-did-not-jump-wuhan-market-chinese-cdc-says-2020-5 | 04:20 |
| Shulginaut | ^ LjL sorry was trying to remember to paste that | 04:20 |
| Shulginaut | May 28 2020 | 04:20 |
| Shulginaut | China also chose to bleachwash the place after evicting its occupants | 04:20 |
| Shulginaut | no idea if they did any studies prior | 04:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Australia’s COVID-19 response team holds urgent meeting amid outbreak → https://is.gd/qMmx4q | 04:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Scotiabank Arena mega-clinic sets record for one-day COVID-19 vaccinations → https://is.gd/BIE9WZ | 05:00 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Thailand: +5406 cases (now 249853), +22 deaths (now 1934) since 23 hours ago | 05:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: As life gradually returns to normal in Europe, there has been a resurgence of deadly violence against women as abusers experience a "loss of the control" they enjoyed throughout the coronavirus lockdowns → https://is.gd/gDtty6 | 06:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: South Africa will tighten COVID-19 restrictions for 14 days as current containment measures are insufficient to cope with the speed and scale of new infections, President Cyril Ramaphosa said on Sunday → https://is.gd/XQcY5x | 06:33 |
| tsundere | can virus become infectiously airborne from e.g. groceries in front of a fan or shaking clothes? | 06:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Dozens came down with Covid-19 on Everest, Nepal says it never happened → https://is.gd/YXdJH2 | 07:26 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Moscow Oblast, Russia: +2608 cases (now 306403), +19 deaths (now 6458) since a day ago — Saint Petersburg, Russia: +1298 cases (now 465440), +106 deaths (now 16006) since a day ago — Nizhny Novgorod, Russia: +334 cases (now 123817), +24 deaths (now 4141) since a day ago — Buryatia, Russia: +305 cases (now 43314), +23 deaths (now 1166) since a day ago | 07:39 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Kyrgyzstan: +1081 cases (now 121946), +3 deaths (now 1980) since a day ago — India: +46148 cases (now 30.3 million), +962 deaths (now 396414) since 15 hours ago | 08:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Heads of UK military and defence secretary all self-isolating after army chief tests positive for Covid → https://is.gd/vsWmDb | 08:49 |
| genera | "Warum England uns eine Warnung sein soll" Drostens podcast, 2weeks ago | 08:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | June 28, 2021: Please refer to our Wiki for more information on COVID-19 and our sub. You can find answers to frequently asked questions in our FAQ , where there is valuable information such as our: → https://is.gd/kr3DnW | 09:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Opinion: Confronting a legacy of scarcity: a plan for reinvesting in U.S. public health: Public health in America is in crisis, a sad fact that the Covid-19 pandemic has made impossible to ignore. Decades of chronic underfunding and a failure to invest in the… → https://is.gd/B2Eo15 | 10:44 |
| martini_man[m] | https://z3news.com/w/latest-vaers-data-show-5165-deaths-reported-following-covid-vaccines/ | 10:54 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: What's new: Event: EMA regular press briefing on COVID-19 , Virtual meeting, from 01/07/2021 to 01/07/2021 → https://is.gd/9ANWH6 | 11:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: What's new: Document: Procedural guidance for variant strain(s) update to vaccines intended for protection against human coronavirus → https://is.gd/geogRp | 11:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Hancock resigns after covid guideline breach and Sajid Javid becomes new health secretary: Matt Hancock resigned as England’s health secretary on Saturday evening after he was caught breaking his own covid-19 rules on social distancing by kissing an aide in his ministerial office.Former... → https://is.gd/as2pPC | 11:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Australia Covid: Outbreaks emerge across country in 'new phase' of pandemic → https://is.gd/xUqICX | 13:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: First on CNN: US ships first Pfizer vaccine doses abroad, donating 2 million to Peru → https://is.gd/HgV91w | 13:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Atlantic: The Coronavirus Doesn’t Care About Killing You: The coronavirus is on a serious self-improvement kick. Since infiltrating the human population, SARS-CoV-2 has splintered into hundreds of lineages , with some seeding new, fast-spreading variants. A more infectious version first overtook the OG coronavirus last spring , before [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/P3w05f | 13:23 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Germany: +209 cases (now 3.7 million) since 23 hours ago | 13:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: What's new: Document: Biologics Working Party (BWP) Ad hoc Influenza Working Group - Amended European Union recommendations for the seasonal influenza vaccine composition for the season 2021/2022 → https://is.gd/6zDwsz | 13:54 |
| de-facto | Arsanerit, how are you doing? | 13:54 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Il Presidente Draghi incontra Segretario di Stato Usa Blinken ( https://www.governo.it/it/articolo/il-presidente-draghi-incontra-segretario-di-stato-usa-blinken/17256 ) | 14:05 | |
| pwr22 | de-facto, LjL: apparently UK kids are making false positives happen on their lateral flow home tests by tipping Fanta on them so they get time off school 🤦♂️ | 14:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: Human medicine assessment reports: (news): Human medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): Rotarix, rotavirus vaccine, live, Immunization,Rotavirus Infections, Date of authorisation: 21/02/2006, Revision: 36, Status: Authorised → https://is.gd/hhm53V | 14:05 |
| genera | good kids | 14:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from In The Pipeline: An Announcement About the Comment Section: In many parts of the US, things are returning to normal thanks to the steep drop in coronavirus cases, which in itself is very likely due to a combination of vaccination and warmer outdoor weather. I very much hope that we can continue this process on into the fall under the threat of [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/YH9VPP | 14:15 |
| de-facto | pwr22, lol maybe they should do the tests in presence (under observation) and more often? | 14:22 |
| de-facto | pwr22, where are they doing their tests? at home or in school? | 14:25 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Nepal: +1509 cases (now 635188), +42 deaths (now 9051) since 23 hours ago — Iceland: +9 cases (now 6646) since 3 days ago — Fiji: +241 cases (now 3832), +2 deaths (now 17) since a day ago — Switzerland: +1 deaths (now 10883) since 2 days ago | 14:41 |
| de-facto | false positives are better than false negatives though, because they probably will get confirmed by PCR i assume | 14:53 |
| de-facto | and probably also the whole family would get tested, hence I assume they only would do their Fanta experiments once because of all the trouble they cause by that | 14:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express (Health): Health: Effective tips to take care of your skin post Covid-19 recovery → https://is.gd/d6VTkS | 15:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Pfizer and Moderna Vaccines Likely to Produce Lasting Immunity, Study Finds → https://is.gd/0iviM1 | 16:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express (Health): Health: Children falling prey to psychological issues due to second Covid wave: Experts → https://is.gd/DKFT6D | 16:31 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Bangladesh: +8364 cases (now 896770), +104 deaths (now 14276) since 23 hours ago | 16:33 |
| fmtx[m] | IRAN CURED CORONAVIRUS WITH AN ACTUAL REAL VACCINE (not some random bullshit called a vaccine) AND THATS WHY ALL THE IRANIAN MEDIA SITES WERE SHUT DOWN. THIS THING IS OVER. | 16:41 |
| fmtx[m] | IRAN CURED CORONAVIRUS WITH AN ACTUAL REAL VACCINE (not some random bullshit called a vaccine) AND THATS WHY ALL THE IRANIAN MEDIA SITES WERE SHUT DOWN. THIS THING IS OVER. | 16:41 |
| de-facto | fmtx[m], source? | 16:42 |
| de-facto | i have heard such claims many times, so forgive me if i am skeptical because for now it still seems to be not "over" at all (unfortunately) | 16:42 |
| de-facto | and btw "random bullshit called a vaccine" is nonsensical if you intend to refer with that to the currently deployed vaccines, they turn out ot reduce hospitalizations and severe progressions by a lot from the observations we have for now | 16:47 |
| de-facto | surely they can be improved, but they seem to work better than what we hoped for in the begin of 2020 | 16:48 |
| de-facto | them providing better protection than recovery for most of the mutants, still probably could be improved with including the latest evasion mutations in the s-protein | 16:49 |
| de-facto | still i would like to read it, do you have a paper about the vaccine you refer to that was developed in Iran fmtx[m] ? | 16:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Mixing Covid vaccines gives good protection, study suggests: Any combination of Pfizer or AstraZeneca for first and second doses works, a study suggests. → https://is.gd/tQxaZH | 17:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): Monday 28 June 2021 Update: submitted by /u/HippolasCage to r/CoronavirusUK → https://is.gd/pZ8cRx | 17:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Artificial Proteins Never Seen in the Natural World Are Becoming New COVID Vaccines and Medicines. Researchers have begun to crack the code of protein structure, allowing them to remake, well, everything. → https://is.gd/TdpDnK | 17:33 |
| LjL-Matrix | Peter: -.- maybe that is the cause of the current surge in the UK, there's hoping :p but why are they using lateral flow assays (presumably antibody) to determine *current* infection? That seems flawed | 17:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: WHO urges fully vaccinated people to continue to wear masks as delta Covid variant spreads → https://is.gd/yQWTzc | 17:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from https://covid19.specops.network : ljl-covid: Remove coronainfo.xyz, as site has stopped existing → https://is.gd/gggArX | 17:53 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for United Kingdom: +12952 cases (now 4.7 million) since 23 hours ago | 18:00 |
| LjL | %title https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-centre/press-releases/2021/first-covid-19-variant-vaccine-azd2816-phase-ii-iii-trial-participants-vaccinated.html | 18:01 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From www.astrazeneca.com: First COVID-19 variant vaccine AZD2816 Phase II/III trial participants vaccinated | 18:01 |
| LjL | "AZD2816 will be administered to individuals who have previously been fully vaccinated with two doses of Vaxzevria or an mRNA vaccine, at least three months after their last injection. In non-vaccinated individuals, AZD2816 will be given as two doses, four or twelve weeks apart, or given as a second dose following a first dose of Vaxzevria four weeks apart." | 18:01 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Recent Commits to links:master: Remove coronainfo.xyz, as site has stopped existing ( https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/commit/a579817abfe3fc12f8e8f9729169f291de10d3d4 ) | 18:02 | |
| Brainstorm | New from Quanta Magazine: A Lack of COVID-19 Genomes Could Prolong the Pandemic: Genomic surveillance of the SARS-CoV-2 virus can help control the current pandemic and prevent future ones. But the process is marred by insufficient data and geographic inequities. The post first appeared on Quanta Magazine → https://is.gd/5wOLrH | 18:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): The Role of Chlorhexidine in Minimizing the SARS-CoV-2 Viral Load → https://is.gd/lXyH6P | 18:15 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.08.447308v1 | 18:18 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.biorxiv.org: The ChAdOx1 vectored vaccine, AZD2816, induces strong immunogenicity against SARS-CoV-2 B.1.351 and other variants of concern in preclinical studies | bioRxiv | 18:18 |
| de-facto | so thats really good, i wonder how it works against B.1.617.2(.1) though? | 18:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: imPulse™ Una Infrasound-to-ultrasound E-stethoscope: Conditions : Covid19; COVID-19 Pneumonia; COVID-19 Respiratory Infection; COVID-19 Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome; Mass Screening; Corona Virus Infection; Vaccine Virus Shedding → https://is.gd/qUHS2o | 18:25 |
| LjL | %title https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/o9hpmq/a_study_finds_that_the_pfizer_and_moderna/h3bi86e/ | 18:27 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From www.reddit.com: A study finds that the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines could offer protection for years. : Coronavirus | 18:27 |
| de-facto | is mentioned in the paper, but ofc needs trial for efficacy value | 18:27 |
| LjL | bit of a strange description of this thing, anyway it involves looking at germinal centers and seeing they continue "working" for 4 months after vaccination, they don't actually know the protection is so very long-lasting of course | 18:28 |
| LjL | also the article is paywalled so i linked to a copypaste | 18:28 |
| LjL | de-facto, well it's based on the SA variant, how much in common does the Indian variant have with that? | 18:29 |
| de-facto | that is what i meant with spread of the phylogenetic tree almost a year ago, the number of VoCs present in a population probably increasing exponentially and them drifting apart so that one vaccine can not address all of them anymore | 18:34 |
| de-facto | but yeah we will see how well it works, my fear is we are much too slow | 18:34 |
| de-facto | when did the SA variant emerge? fall of 2020? when will the update be on the market? fall of 2021? | 18:35 |
| de-facto | a year delay thats way too slow imho | 18:35 |
| LjL | i guess the difference is that with the SA variant, we'll be doing the possible, while with the Indian variant, we'll be doing the needful | 18:35 |
| de-facto | at least they are doing updates, others are just leaning back and saying "our current vaccine is good enough, dont worry" | 18:36 |
| LjL | "others" being mainly Pfizer ;( | 18:36 |
| de-facto | yes | 18:37 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Myanmar: +1225 cases (now 154385), +12 deaths (now 3309) since a day ago | 18:37 |
| de-facto | i dont oppose that their current vaccine still is very efficient, but that does not mean they can just rely on that forever, imho all of them *must* start with updates against *all* known VoCs | 18:38 |
| mrdata | true | 18:38 |
| LjL | agree | 18:38 |
| de-facto | if we dont need some of those updated versions, well then we are lucky, but we are even more lucky if we would have a specific update ready in time before a VoC dominates | 18:39 |
| de-facto | none of which would happen if they just dont do anything in regards to updates | 18:40 |
| de-facto | then we could have polyclonal or multivalent vaccines, provoking immune response against the whole spectrum of currently circulating VoCs, the shorter the delay time between the declaration of one Mutant as VoC and updates integrated in the newest multivalent vaccine the better | 18:42 |
| de-facto | not sure if they would have to produce each version in a separate pipeline and mix them together only in the final product (to ensure equal parts of all of them) or if they could rely on them to amplify with scaling at same rates, hence could go with one pipeline and a polyclonal template | 18:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Spain, Malta and Portugal restrict non-vaccinated travellers: UK travellers will have to prove they have been fully vaccinated against coronavirus on arrival. → https://is.gd/WuGmzF | 18:45 |
| de-facto | Arsanerit, how are you doing? | 18:48 |
| Arsanerit | de-facto: I'm doing fine. Still a bit fatigued today but the pain in my arm is vanishing more quickly than after the first dose. | 18:49 |
| Arsanerit | My colleague (woman in her 30s) reports that since 2 days after her first dose of Comirnaty® (BioNTech), she reports symptoms of hay fever she never had before. | 18:49 |
| Arsanerit | For her that's about two weeks ago. | 18:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from University of Washington: After More Than 330 Daily Summaries, the COVID-19 Literature Situation Report Comes to an End: 20200802_UW Belltown Clinic-1157.jpg Close Photo of a staff member at the UW Belltown COVID-19 Clinic. Credit: University of Washington View image caption For nearly seventeen months, the COVID-19 Literature Situation Report [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/aus9DM | 18:55 |
| LjL | my parents have cancelled their antibody test appointment. so they'll certainly get another AZ dose. not sure whether to be disappointed or relieved. | 18:57 |
| de-facto | Arsanerit, very nice, glad to hear you are doing so well, so then you are one of the examples with not much side effects then, congratz :) | 19:00 |
| Arsanerit | indeed | 19:01 |
| Arsanerit | the fatigue may even be due to heat or pollen | 19:02 |
| de-facto | yeah i have it too even though my primer was a month ago, so i guess its due to heat and pollen for me | 19:02 |
| de-facto | fatigue after vaccinations is pretty normal though i think | 19:03 |
| de-facto | not sure about the mean duration for this one | 19:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from WebMD: Rethinking Your Post-COVID Relationship With Booze: COVID-19 prompted many Americans to start taking steps to eliminate alcohol entirely. If you’re among this group, science is definitely on your side → https://is.gd/lFy3gU | 19:06 |
| de-facto | Arsanerit, also makes sense that its vanishing more quickly for second shot as the immune system probably eliminates it much more efficiently, cells blooming with spikes being killed off much more quickly and also spikes not freely floating in the plasma anymore | 19:07 |
| Arsanerit | good | 19:09 |
| Arsanerit | Does that mean that in less than two weeks I can go bike touring through Europe without worrying too much though? | 19:09 |
| de-facto | well you are fully vaccinated by then, lowering the probability of symptomatic infection and even more for severe progressions, but there still is a certain (lowered) ratio for such outcomes in infections | 19:12 |
| de-facto | idk about bike though i would not do things with high pulse rates (to lower risk of myocarditis) for a while, idk the exact duration for such things, i guess 2-3 weeks or such? nor sure | 19:13 |
| de-facto | just chill a bit and see how you are feeling in 2-3 weeks from now, i assume from stats just fine would be the very most probable answer | 19:15 |
| de-facto | btw may i ask how old you are? | 19:16 |
| Raf[m] | <Brainstorm "New from https://covid19.specops"> Is that the same content as on LjL git page | 19:24 |
| Raf[m] | Does anyone know of some research on using deep learning to create Covid antibody treatment? | 19:25 |
| de-facto | .title https://elifesciences.org/articles/29023 | 19:28 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From elifesciences.org: Computationally-driven identification of antibody epitopes | eLife | 19:28 |
| de-facto | do you mean something like that? | 19:28 |
| Raf[m] | Yes that's pretty cool | 19:39 |
| Raf[m] | I am curious to find companies/startups in this area, seems there will be many sprouting up nowadays | 19:40 |
| de-facto | well in-silico is less certain than in-vitro than in-vivo in regards to effective drugs, but it probably can help a lot with streamlining an efficient and optimized R&D pipeline | 19:43 |
| de-facto | maybe there are also approaches closing optimization loops through all three of those? | 19:44 |
| LjL | Raf[m], yes that's the same, originally the github page was meant as the place to edit that site, but now i'm linking to github directly because that site has issues interpreting the markdown consistently with github when there are parentheses in URLs, so some URLs there are broken (especially Lancet ones) | 20:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: Andy Becker: Altimmune Inc: AdCOVID → https://is.gd/bnKPpU | 20:07 |
| pwr22222 | Hmm, is the matrix bridge down right now? | 20:13 |
| pwr22222 | I heard matrix.org has been under some sort of sustained attack today so I figure it might be | 20:14 |
| pwr22222 | Yeah, these messages don't seem to be coming through on the matrix side | 20:14 |
| pwr22222 | Yeah, doesn't even look like one way bridging is happening either | 20:15 |
| pwr22 | test | 20:15 |
| LjL | oh bother | 20:15 |
| pwr22222 | Oh that one way message came through after a while | 20:15 |
| pwr22222 | I'm seeing messages in the main matrix room coming through with a timestamp of 11am so I'm not quite sure what's going on | 20:16 |
| LjL | O.o | 20:16 |
| pwr22222 | I do see people from matrix.org chatting okay in other rooms (on matrix I mean - not talking about the bridge) without any issues so it's possible that just certain rooms are affected | 20:17 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: Andy Becker: Aivita Biomedical Inc: AV-COVID-19 → https://is.gd/qrWy9m | 20:17 |
| LjL | pwr22222, my last message in #matrix:matrix.org (on Matrix) is from 18:09 UTC, on #matrix on IRC a bit later, but also Libera staff is K-lining people. yesterday there was a big attack on #matrix on the IRC side and, for a change, TravisR was being "very professional" about it by 1) telling people to shut up and not talk about it even when they had clearly genuine questions about what was going on, and 2) saying "it's handled on the Matrix side which is the | 20:19 |
| LjL | priority" which clearly made people on the IRC side start saying what, are we just second class citizens who don't matter now, and in turn, that caused more #1 | 20:19 |
| LjL | i ended up making ##matrix / #matrix-discussion:matrix.org as a channel in protest of the ban on talking about spam | 20:20 |
| Mikaela | in my experience the most reliable way to have working Matrix bridging is to run a matterbridge, it's a ugly relaybot (when IRCd doesn't support RELAYMSG like here) on both sides, but at least it works. I guess heisenbridge might also work being ugly just on IRC if you are running your own homeserver | 20:20 |
| LjL | i doubt it will ever be populated, but whatever, if TravisR has a grain of salt he'll look at what not just i, but other people too, have said about the way he handles people in #libera | 20:20 |
| Mikaela | I saw that comment too and was like "well, happy that you're being honest", but I will join your channel | 20:21 |
| LjL | Mikaela, yeah, I've used it for a while when the official Libera bridge wasn't quite ready, and i've also used Heisenbridge, but people weren't happy with the bot doing the job, so it had to be a temporary solution | 20:21 |
| pwr22222 | They always try and keep #matrix really on topic aggressively at the best of times | 20:21 |
| pwr22222 | And when there's spam or whatever going on they want to mitigate it and refuse to acknowledge it's existence to try and prevent giving the attacker satisfaction (that's what I've seen before as far as this has been able to be discussed before :D ) | 20:22 |
| LjL | pwr22222, people on IRC were being highlighted on and on and on and the channel just kept being spammed because Half-Shot hadn't given anyone else (including Travis) any flags on the Matrix side, and staff wasn't available (European night). which... shit happens, i guess, but then you can just tell people what's happening. you've fucked it up, say so. | 20:22 |
| pwr22222 | Yeah I agree that total silence isn't effective | 20:23 |
| LjL | pwr22222, Libera also does that to an extent (the most "aggressive" at telling others not to comment about spam are often the "helpers", though, not the staff, and i hate it because they often end up making *more* noise than just the individual comments on spam) | 20:23 |
| pwr22222 | I guess one advantage of travis not having ops is that he can't stop you :P ? | 20:23 |
| LjL | well i don't want to get banned on the Matrix side either though | 20:23 |
| LjL | and at that time the IRC side was completely useless, you couldn't follow what anybody said | 20:24 |
| LjL | Mikaela, so anyway did you mean RELAYMSG *is* or *isn't* available on Libera? i didn't know about that functionality | 20:25 |
| LjL | also is it something that needs client support as well? | 20:26 |
| Mikaela | LjL, it's not available on Libera and it only needs the bot to support it (using RELAYMSG instead of PRIVMSG) | 20:27 |
| Mikaela | https://github.com/solanum-ircd/solanum/issues/159 is an issue about it | 20:27 |
| LjL | Mikaela, so then the server (if it supports it) sends it as a PRIVMSG? coming from someone who technically hasn't JOINed? | 20:27 |
| Mikaela | yes | 20:27 |
| LjL | how does that impact the ability to kick/ban people? | 20:28 |
| Mikaela | I think it's generally done on the side of the relaybot where the message comes from, but there is also an open issue to Ergo IRCd to check bans before sending the fake target PRIVMSG | 20:29 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Spain: +10179 cases (now 3.8 million), +10 deaths (now 80789) since 2 days ago — Israel: +189 cases (now 841184) since 6 hours ago | 20:29 |
| LjL | Mikaela, if they had some kind of hostmask that's different for each speaker, even made up, bans would be possible at least in principle | 20:31 |
| Mikaela | in case of Ergo it's <nick>!~u@<hashedRELAYMSGsenderhost>, they hate ident as legacy there and for integrated bouncer force it into ~u to be about as small as possible | 20:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Journalist uncovers Chinese documents that could reveal Covid intentions → https://is.gd/gGC1nz | 21:50 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Italy: +387 cases (now 4.3 million), +28 deaths (now 127500) since a day ago — France: +11 deaths (now 111055) since 19 hours ago | 22:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): nCoV: Life after the 1918 flu has lessons for our post-pandemic world | 28JUN21 → https://is.gd/mTjwfD | 22:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: COVID-19 Scan for Jun 28, 2021: Point-of-care COVID test Childcare closures during COVID → https://is.gd/wyhbqM | 22:20 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Canada: +1 deaths (now 26205) since 22 hours ago | 22:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from Scientific American: Why Uruguay Lost Control of COVID: Health workers take care of a patient at a Covid-19 Intensive Care Unit (ICU), in a private hospital in Montevideo, in April 2021. → https://is.gd/BtO141 | 22:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from WebMD: Huge Number of Hospital Workers Still Unvaccinated: A new analysis by WebMD and Medscape shows that many health care workers in hospitals around the US remain unvaccinated against COVID, putting themselves, their patients, and their community at risk → https://is.gd/snmdHv | 23:02 |
| Arsanerit | 19:16:16 < de-facto> btw may i ask how old you are? | 23:09 |
| Arsanerit | de-facto: Yes, you may. I'm 35 years and 9½ months. | 23:09 |
| LjL | that is... precise | 23:10 |
| LjL | <Brainstorm> New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Oxford vaccine produces strong immune response from booster shot → https://is.gd/hygIc1 | 23:18 |
| LjL | this is potentially interesting due to the adenovirus vector not changing | 23:19 |
| de-facto | yes indeed but also works better when AZD1222 primer and booster have more delay | 23:29 |
| de-facto | so maybe there is a threshold for reusing a vector? (wild speculation) | 23:29 |
| pwr22 | 😲 LjL I see messages here in matrix! | 23:29 |
| LjL-Matrix | Uh, intermittently working, is it | 23:30 |
| LjL-Matrix | Peter: yeah, I don't know what the heck it's doing | 23:30 |
| LjL-Matrix | Our messages aren't presently being shown on IRC | 23:30 |
| LjL | de-facto, does it really, though? i'm still very skeptical of that claim because it seemed to me that AZ mucked their trial a lot and the data showing 12 weeks work better are liable to being cherry-picked | 23:30 |
| LjL | LjL-Matrix, but they are now! | 23:30 |
| de-facto | i do not know that, i have not looked into that in such detail | 23:32 |
| LjL | de-facto, my recollection is that the UK first proposed a 12-week interval for practical reason (giving as many first doses as possible during a peak), and then that was followed by "oh by the way, it actually works better with 12 weeks!", which made me suspicious | 23:33 |
| de-facto | well it is to be expected that any vaccinations two doses further apart give better immunity, but of course only if the first is still "active" enough to give it another "push upwards" in terms of titers | 23:38 |
| de-facto | so i assume there is an optimum, and it probably is further apart than most vaccination schemes right now (but i dont know that) | 23:38 |
| de-facto | as additional effect maybe the immune reaction against the vector also fades off and allows it to instruct enough cells again after some time to produce the vaccine antigen | 23:39 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.23.21259327v1 | 23:59 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.medrxiv.org: Reduced neutralisation of the Delta (B.1.617.2) SARS-CoV-2 variant of concern following vaccination | medRxiv | 23:59 |
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