| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): nCoV: Ministers urged to keep some Covid restrictions after 19 July due to ‘alarming’ rise in cases | 03JUL21 → https://is.gd/JnVntn | 00:39 |
|---|---|---|
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): nCoV: Russia Reports Record COVID Deaths for Fifth Straight Day | 03JUL21 → https://is.gd/t7BRy0 | 00:49 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2021/06/03/the-wuhan-lab-leak-hypothesis-is-a-conspiracy-theory-not-science/ | 00:49 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.forbes.com: The Wuhan Lab Leak Hypothesis Is A Conspiracy Theory, Not Science | 00:49 |
| nixonix | remembering forbes is owned by Integrated Whale Media Investments, China (Hong Kong) (95%) | 00:50 |
| nixonix | "SARS-CoV-2 was created in a lab — which the evidence does not favor — this virus somehow won the generic lottery on multiple, complex fronts, each one of which is an active research area in virology to this day" | 00:53 |
| nixonix | if that really is true, then no need for BSL-4 or perhaps even BSL-2 for that type of GOF research | 00:53 |
| nixonix | "there would have to be an enormous conspiracy. Dr. Shi must have been lying; other people in her group and at the Wuhan Institute for Virology must have been lying; people at EcoHealth Alliance must have been lying; affiliated researchers such as Peter Daszek must be lying; and Dr. Fauci must be lying as well" | 00:54 |
| nixonix | i dont agree on fauci part | 00:54 |
| nixonix | daszek, who knows for sure... | 00:54 |
| nixonix | hcov seasonality: https://smw.ch/journalimage/780/780/ratio/view/article/ezm_smw/en/smw.2020.20224/c1ef84064e77736bc19423fd99ab1bc2abc978f9/w20224_f1_conv.jpg/rsrc/ji | 01:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Protestors demand Bolsonaro’s impeachment over vaccine scandal → https://is.gd/Rjz8rK | 01:09 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-1083-1 | 01:11 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.nature.com: Seasonal coronavirus protective immunity is short-lasting | Nature Medicine | 01:11 |
| nixonix | Other studies have shown that neutralizing SARS-CoV-2 antibody levels decrease within the first 2 months after infection, especially after mild COVID-197,8, and we observed a similar decrease in anti-nucleocapsid antibodies of seasonal coronaviruses | 01:11 |
| nixonix | from another article: | 01:14 |
| nixonix | thorough serological and prospective studies are needed to determine whether ADE manifests among SARS-CoV-2 infections, either because of prior homologous infection or cross-reactive antibodies from other HCoVs. This will have particular relevance for vaccines and convalescent plasma therapy | 01:14 |
| nixonix | Sequential infections with influenza virus have been associated with less severe symptoms (8), whereas no association between reinfection and symptom severity was found in recurring endemic HCoV infections (4). | 01:15 |
| nixonix | In addition, for other viruses (e.g., RSV and dengue), suboptimal binding of naturally induced or vaccine-induced antibodies can enhance infection severity upon subsequent exposure, a phenomenon called antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE) | 01:15 |
| de-facto | afaik original antigenic sin was not observed in sars-cov-2 yet | 01:16 |
| nixonix | you mean ade from inefction with another variant? | 01:17 |
| de-facto | also vaccine updates (e.g oxford trials) worked just fine, resulting in highly neutralizing antibodies for e.g. beta variant | 01:17 |
| de-facto | not sure if it could possibly have anything to do with how closely related variants are, e.g. if more frequent updates with smaller changes are better than less frequent updates with bigger changes | 01:19 |
| de-facto | but then what happens if the phylogenetic tree spreads, antigenic surfaces drifting apart further and further from each others in terms of similarity and cross binding of antibodies developed by stimulation for another branch | 01:20 |
| de-facto | thats why i found that article with the chimeric antigen inducing super broad immune reaction against several covs especially interesting, because it may potentially give some insight into such mechanisms | 01:22 |
| nixonix | "As HRV induces an IFN-mediated innate immune response that blocks IAV in ALI-cultures [4], we hypothesized that the observed block in SARS-CoV-2 replication was due to an HRV-triggered IFN response | 01:29 |
| nixonix | it did. maybe use that to protect from sars-cov-2 infection | 01:30 |
| nixonix | yeah IFN-alpha has been used in nasal sprays for year ago, and also IFN-beta has been considered. dosage must be right as too high might strengthen possible cytokine storm - and there was some other mechanism too, what was it again... | 01:36 |
| nixonix | i pasted here about it a few days ago | 01:36 |
| nixonix | but i thought that it would be cool if some kind of stronger IFN-I response could be induced with vaccine, just when sars2 infection would happen. might be impossible, so its nasal spray i guess, when you feel symptoms and test positive, vaccinated or not | 01:39 |
| nixonix | if proven beneficial, that is | 01:39 |
| nixonix | so it would protect like rhinovirus infection at the same time. if its proven its about interferon response | 01:40 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56483445 | 01:40 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.bbc.com: Coronavirus: How the common cold can boot out Covid - BBC News | 01:40 |
| nixonix | it could also be too late to use IFN-I when you feel symptoms or test positive | 01:42 |
| LjL | wow, if true this is pretty big although i'm not sure how willing health authorities would be to give everyone a cold | 01:47 |
| nixonix | it could work, if you get it within 24h or so | 01:47 |
| nixonix | .title https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32978311/ | 01:48 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov: S Protein-Reactive IgG and Memory B Cell Production after Human SARS-CoV-2 Infection Includes Broad Reactivity to the S2 Subunit - PubMed | 01:48 |
| nixonix | Anti-RBD IgG was absent in unexposed subjects. Most unexposed subjects had anti-S2 IgG, and a minority had anti-N IgG, but IgG MBCs with these specificities were not detected, perhaps reflecting low frequencies | 01:49 |
| nixonix | but remember, reinfections for the same hcovs happen like after 6-12 months, and: | 01:49 |
| nixonix | Sequential infections with influenza virus have been associated with less severe symptoms (8), whereas no association between reinfection and symptom severity was found in recurring endemic HCoV infections | 01:50 |
| nixonix | so it looks like those are not very protective | 01:50 |
| nixonix | or they could be protective if titers are strong enough. but apparently not as low levels from long living MBC:s. for common cold hcovs anyway, but i wouldnt bet the same antibodies would be better againts sars2 | 02:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from Virological.org: Latest topics: nCoV-2019 Genomic Epidemiology: Emergence and spread of SARS-CoV-2 P.1 (Gamma) lineage variants carrying Spike mutations 𝚫141-144, N679K or P681H during persistent viral circulation in Amazonas, Brazil → https://is.gd/xOm3Me | 02:10 |
| nixonix | that could mean that conserved regions, in spike and N, would require high levels of abs to be protective. if true, it would be hard to develop universal betacoronavirus vaccine that would be effective | 02:11 |
| nixonix | and those vulnerable regions keep mutating. those that arent vulnerable, can be conserved | 02:13 |
| nixonix | somehow it just knows what we are trying to do... | 02:14 |
| de-facto | nixonix, the problem with IFN and rhinovirus might be: can it possibly also be beneficial after onset of symptoms (because most people may not be aware of infection earlier), hence when the immune system already reacted to SARS-CoV-2 infection? | 02:29 |
| de-facto | yet another (crazy!) idea: can another (harmless) virus be used as a vector to implant a piece of mRNA into cells that would block some essential protein in the SARS-CoV-2 infection? | 02:31 |
| nixonix | maybe not. and while IFN-alpha has been tried as a prophylaxis way before, apparently with no huge success, maybe IFN-beta | 02:31 |
| nixonix | IFN-β might be therapeutically effective in patients with severe symptoms but the greatest value might derive from early treatment of relatively asymptomatic individuals. Brzoska and his associates suggested that IFN-β1a should be provided to patients with severe symptoms due to coronavirus infections | 02:31 |
| nixonix | or maybe just try to adjust vaccines so that they would produce more efficient interferon response | 02:32 |
| de-facto | yet if at later stages, can another virus be used to address 1) blocking covid replication 2) block immune system freaking out 3) be terminated by the immune system in a safe way itself | 02:33 |
| nixonix | those mrna vaccines were designed very fast, while most of what was needed was ready, and some adjustments might have happened a bit later eg when they selected 4 candidates at pfizer for human trials | 02:33 |
| de-facto | (yet that would be quite crazy, not sure if that would be safe to do such a "counter fire" approach) | 02:33 |
| nixonix | those could perhaps be improved with later accumulated knowledge | 02:33 |
| de-facto | i mean a real replicating virus that blocks some sars-cov-2 NSPs or such | 02:34 |
| de-facto | and prevents the immune system runaway | 02:34 |
| nixonix | or self-replicating vaccine | 02:34 |
| nixonix | wait, i had that idea last summer.. and it wasnt original, accidentally done with a polio vaccine too | 02:35 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Kazakhstan: +3374 cases (now 458875) since 21 hours ago — Cyprus: +583 cases (now 77445) since 22 hours ago — Netherlands: +1401 cases (now 1.7 million), +5 deaths (now 17897) since 21 hours ago — Canada: +896 cases (now 1.4 million) since 22 hours ago | 02:35 |
| de-facto | like designing some molecule in-silico that blocks sars-cov-2 NSP and encode that in the genome of another (harmless) respiratory virus | 02:35 |
| nixonix | and later maybe chinese vacc that wasnt perfectly inactivated. and brazilians doubted bharat biotech's vaccine for similar reasons | 02:35 |
| nixonix | they arent necessarily that harmless, compared to good vaccines | 02:36 |
| de-facto | i am not talking about vaccines here | 02:36 |
| de-facto | i am talking about treatment of an infection | 02:36 |
| nixonix | maybe instead try to copy something like that IFN response from them, how they do that | 02:36 |
| nixonix | and add that to existing vaccines | 02:36 |
| nixonix | better would be if its ready in your body | 02:37 |
| de-facto | like a patient comes to a clinic, covid diagnosed, hence is infected with the vector virus that instructs the cells to produce a molecule that blocks sars-cov-2 replication cycle at some critical points | 02:37 |
| de-facto | but yeah how to control that, it also could runaway | 02:37 |
| nixonix | if its about interferons, they could just administer that. anyway, infection with rhino seems to work during the 1st day only | 02:38 |
| nixonix | and the best treatment would be stuff that worked when a patient comes to hospital in bad shape | 02:38 |
| nixonix | then that pill for early symptoms, they are trying to do it with couple cool billions in usa | 02:39 |
| de-facto | no interferons, some molecule that clamps onto some NSPs or 3CLpro or such, preventing sars-cov-2 replication | 02:39 |
| nixonix | it would be antiviral. not good one found yet, that was efficient alone | 02:40 |
| nixonix | and not enough cocktails has been tried | 02:40 |
| nixonix | because you need to share the profit, perhaps... | 02:40 |
| nixonix | they should do that in RECOVERY trials or something | 02:41 |
| de-facto | yeah the best treatment would be for patients that just became symptomatic or even a bit later, because that is when they knock at the hospital doors | 02:41 |
| nixonix | just try couple of cheap drugs that have some effect for severe symptoms, and not much adverse effects, try them as a combination | 02:41 |
| de-facto | those antivirals are all nice, but in reality no patients will get them early enough | 02:42 |
| nixonix | another solution could be 2-4 more expensive ones for severe symptoms cocktail | 02:42 |
| nixonix | that cheap and not much adverse effects, that works somewhat for severe symptoms, could be efficient as a magic pill for early symptoms | 02:43 |
| nixonix | need to be oral, though | 02:43 |
| de-facto | yeah especially because attacking at multiple vectors would be a multiplicative effect, hence may not be evaded as easy as a single attack vector | 02:44 |
| nixonix | remdesivir worked, it reduced viral loads in hospitalized patients. but expensive, and needs to be administered in hospital. could be part of cocktail in hospitals, not as a magic pill | 02:45 |
| de-facto | yeah but it did not really deduce mortality afaik | 02:45 |
| nixonix | because not efficient enough, and after 5 days treatment, viral loads went back up | 02:45 |
| de-facto | *not really reduce | 02:45 |
| de-facto | how about inhaling some LNPs that also dock onto ACE2 and deliver some mRNA that instructs cells to produce some SARS-CoV-2 blocking molecule | 02:47 |
| nixonix | maybe also not getting to right tissues with strong enough concentrations, at that stage of course of the disease | 02:47 |
| de-facto | that in combination with some nanobodies or such, could be a very potent prevention treatment, e.g. if an outbreak occurred somewhere, give it to all that could have been exposed | 02:48 |
| nixonix | cells in lungs producing a molecule, and whatever proper mechanism. maybe, but stuff like that is just early stage of development | 02:49 |
| de-facto | that would 1) create an environment where single SARS-CoV-2 virions would be blocked by nanobodies 2) if some of them would make it into cells, possibly already the cell got those replication cycle blocking molecules in its plasma, hence dead end | 02:49 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7692784/ | 02:50 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov: Aerosolizable Lipid Nanoparticles for Pulmonary Delivery of mRNA through Design of Experiments | 02:50 |
| de-facto | yes wow that | 02:51 |
| de-facto | now those LNPs would have to use the same receptor as SARS-CoV-2 to target the correct cells | 02:52 |
| de-facto | the better the targeting the less side effects and the more potent the platform | 02:52 |
| nixonix | .title https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30609147/ | 02:54 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov: Inhaled Nanoformulated mRNA Polyplexes for Protein Production in Lung Epithelium - PubMed | 02:54 |
| de-facto | that is damn cool technology | 02:55 |
| de-facto | "Furthermore, using an Ai14 reporter mouse model it is identified that 24.6% of the total lung epithelial cell population is transfected after a single dose." | 02:56 |
| de-facto | "Repeat dosing of inhaled hPBAE-mRNA generates consistent protein production in the lung, without local or systemic toxicity. The results indicate that nebulized delivery of IVT-mRNA facilitated by hPBAE vectors may provide a clinically relevant delivery system to lung epithelium." | 02:56 |
| nixonix | that would be cheap method to produce complex molecules | 02:58 |
| nixonix | and to the right tissue | 02:58 |
| nixonix | well not any type of molecules | 03:00 |
| de-facto | yes and also enable potentially the usage of molecules that normally would require concentrations that would be considered toxic when given systemically, but locally could be tolerated for short times (as long as mRNA is translated) and the molecules are not degraded by some other molecule (that maybe also can be encoded in the mRNA) | 03:01 |
| Krey[m] | Why is it so difficult to get heart exam in czechia | 03:01 |
| * Krey[m] wonders if the gov is doing testing bcs of the post-vaccine complications | 03:01 | |
| de-facto | like encode both the effector molecule and some other molecule that slowly destroys it (and maybe get destroyed by some cellular molecule) so everything only is there as a transient | 03:02 |
| nixonix | also would solve the problem that peptides and proteins tend to degrade too fast, when they are in the right spot immediately | 03:02 |
| de-facto | if something like this would be possible it would potentially be extremely effective if done right | 03:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): Covid2019: Fears over the Peru ‘Lambda’ variant that can seemingly dodge vaccines → https://is.gd/SKWpOy | 03:02 |
| de-facto | it would be a desired property that the molecules would degrade | 03:03 |
| de-facto | because then the concentration could be calibrated by mRNA translation "source" speed | 03:03 |
| de-facto | if matched the production rate and the destruction rate the target concentration could be achieved for some transient time for which the mRNA would get translated until it gets destroyed and another dosage of the treatment could be given | 03:04 |
| de-facto | heh that would be really cool stuff if something like that works | 03:04 |
| -Bridgestorm- 🏠 Temblor! Sismo! Earthquake! 5.9 M tremor, registered by Sismos_CSN, with 6 reports, 2 early, occurred 5 minutes ago (01:01:32 UTC), with a crescent moon, Near Coast Of Central Chile (-29.87, -71.56) ± 171 km likely felt 330 km away (in La Serena…) by 485700 people → https://twitter.com/Sismos_CSN/status/1411491046119313410 (Twitter) | 03:07 | |
| de-facto | yeah latin america is bruteforcing on an evasive mutant with all that incidence there | 03:08 |
| de-facto | no wonder variants like lambda in peru gain evasive capabilities against wuhan spike vaccines like curevac and all the other we currently got | 03:09 |
| de-facto | every location with many people and high incidence is a thread to the whole world | 03:10 |
| nixonix | .title https://virological.org/t/novel-sublineage-within-b-1-1-1-currently-expanding-in-peru-and-chile-with-a-convergent-deletion-in-the-orf1a-gene-3675-3677-and-a-novel-deletion-in-the-spike-gene-246-252-g75v-t76i-l452q-f490s-t859n/685 | 03:10 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From virological.org: Novel sublineage within B.1.1.1 currently expanding in Peru and Chile, with a convergent deletion in the ORF1a gene (Δ3675-3677) and a novel deletion in the Spike gene (Δ246-252, G75V, T76I, L452Q, [...] | 03:10 |
| de-facto | what have they been using there? one dose of coronavac in peru? | 03:11 |
| de-facto | assuming they provoked high breakthrough rates they selected for wuhan spike evasion, hence against all currently given vaccines | 03:11 |
| nixonix | pfizer mostly. some chinese early on, and a bit az | 03:12 |
| de-facto | if we vaccinate with outdated vaccines and also allow many people to go with one dose and not come back for second shot we create the *perfect* breeding ground for evasive mutants | 03:13 |
| nixonix | https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-vaccination-doses-per-capita?time=2021-01-01..latest&country=USA~RUS~MEX~DEU~GBR~FRA~ITA~ARG~CAN~DNK~ESP~PER~BRA~CHL~URY | 03:14 |
| de-facto | partial immunity with high incidence how could it be more optimal for breeding evasion mutants? 1) many tries to evade immunity 2) partial immunity hence likelihood of transmission of a breakthrough because of high viral load | 03:14 |
| nixonix | uk with 60+ M population and long dose intervals was a concern, but apparently nothing too worrying has appeared. kent variant was pre vax | 03:15 |
| nixonix | but sure theres a chance with long intervals | 03:15 |
| nixonix | some people said that long lasting vaccine campaign in the middle of epidemic wasnt a good idea | 03:16 |
| de-facto | btw this is a worldwide experiment a virus never was attacked before by such highly effective vaccines and we allow it to survive instead of aiming for eradication of the strains circulating in partly vaccinated populations | 03:16 |
| nixonix | but what can you do, wait until you have enough doses to vaccinate everybody vast? while people are dying | 03:16 |
| nixonix | fast | 03:16 |
| de-facto | and also our vaccines are outdated, wuhan strain still, thats one and a half years too old | 03:17 |
| de-facto | we need to bring down incidence and then vaccinate everyone as fast as possible | 03:17 |
| de-facto | worldwide synchronized | 03:17 |
| nixonix | yeah, now would be the right moment to push out 617.2 optimized vacc from production lines | 03:17 |
| de-facto | yeah but that wont happen until a year too late | 03:18 |
| de-facto | we pretty much provoke the pathogen to become more aggressive and evasive, to break up into multiple distinct strains | 03:18 |
| de-facto | sometimes i think humanity does not deserve better than breeding a super aggressive strain with how stupid and selfish our current approach goes | 03:19 |
| de-facto | we still dont even have a *plan* for worldwide vaccinations or treatment or anything that would address the COVID pandemic | 03:20 |
| de-facto | covax, sure how far are we with that? | 03:20 |
| nixonix | do they use dna plasmid method for these vaccines? | 03:21 |
| de-facto | in Africa they dont even have enough to vaccinate the healthcare workers | 03:21 |
| de-facto | that is a real shame imho | 03:21 |
| nixonix | they could just switch them. i dont think it would slow down production that much. or maybe all the purifying must be adjusted and product analyzed, idk | 03:22 |
| -Bridgestorm- 🏠 Sismo! Earthquake! 5.9 Mww tremor, registered by EMSC,US, occurred 20 minutes ago (01:01:35 UTC), with a crescent moon, Near Coast Of Central Chile (-28.75, -71.63) ± 1 km, ↓5 km likely felt 250 km away (in Vallenar, Huasco, La Serena, Coquimbo, Copiapó…) by 688600 people (earthquake.usgs.gov) | 03:22 | |
| de-facto | well how many decades will it take to build enough manufacturing for addressing worldwide supply of vaccinations? | 03:23 |
| nixonix | 3? | 03:23 |
| nixonix | years | 03:23 |
| de-facto | imho such a thing should be done in months, if not, it means its not taken seriously enough, sorry. | 03:23 |
| de-facto | yeah its too slow | 03:23 |
| de-facto | it just will not work that way | 03:24 |
| de-facto | it seems we are even too slow to do in in Europe, e.g. look at UK | 03:24 |
| de-facto | and that is one of the "fastest" countries in terms of vaccinations | 03:24 |
| nixonix | even rich taiwan has problems. they want the best western stuff tho | 03:25 |
| de-facto | industrial production, lol, in homeopathic doses | 03:25 |
| de-facto | why does it take so long? | 03:25 |
| nixonix | and pfizer refusing to provide them. not sure how it is with moderna | 03:25 |
| de-facto | they want to milk their cow, many times, for long periods | 03:26 |
| nixonix | yeah maybe thats why they wont update the plasmid | 03:26 |
| nixonix | good for business to sell v2 later for all | 03:26 |
| de-facto | i just dont buy the "heh we are doing as fast as we can" anymore. its not enough, not by *orders* of magnitude | 03:26 |
| nixonix | PEG availability is a problem. they only get some amount produced in usa | 03:27 |
| nixonix | they have been considering producing it in europe now | 03:27 |
| de-facto | yeah then they know that for over half a year by now | 03:27 |
| nixonix | after like year... | 03:27 |
| de-facto | whatever they call their "bottleneck" they had more then enough time to address their supply problems | 03:28 |
| nixonix | whats the size of mrna nanoparticle compared to sars2 virion? | 03:29 |
| nixonix | i was thinking the total volume of them produced | 03:29 |
| de-facto | sure quality control, competition, market capacity, blocking contracts of competitors, whatever, it could have been solved by now, what takes them so much time to produce a lipid or such? | 03:29 |
| de-facto | i think the size is pretty much comparable | 03:29 |
| de-facto | ~100nm or such | 03:29 |
| nixonix | when the mass of all the sars2 virions ever produced should be 0.1 - 10 kg, and fit to a bucket | 03:30 |
| de-facto | (but that is a wild guess) | 03:30 |
| nixonix | and the mass of PEG needed | 03:30 |
| de-facto | yeah i dont believe that PEG could limit that, thats a fairytale by marketing | 03:30 |
| de-facto | as is *any* other molecule, if a problem is not solved as soon as its identified that is a statement on its own then | 03:31 |
| de-facto | (ok calming down, but sometimes i get angry when I see how horribly we seem to fail, despite all the technology available) | 03:32 |
| nixonix | as awesome investment as those vaccines are for rich countries, i wonder how the production couldnt just be put more money. mrna vacc is the best buy since yanks bought alaska from russians | 03:33 |
| nixonix | excluding some lucky stuff like early bitcoins and some shares | 03:34 |
| de-facto | i dont think that their current budget limits them, if they would ask for more investment into production lines they would get immediately the funding | 03:35 |
| de-facto | so why dont they do it then? | 03:35 |
| nixonix | why not PEG produced here already? | 03:35 |
| de-facto | they have one running manufacturing site, that scaled from lab to large supply scale? | 03:36 |
| de-facto | great they solved that, why cant they replicate that? | 03:36 |
| nixonix | they just doubled or so the puurs production | 03:36 |
| de-facto | personal, bla bla, yeah so why dont they work on automating it then | 03:36 |
| de-facto | *personnel | 03:36 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Vietnam: +915 cases (now 19043) since 20 hours ago — Sao Tome and Principe: +7 cases (now 2376) since a day ago | 03:37 |
| nixonix | maybe there are other plants that could be used. just govts buy a few and lease them to pfizer, if they dont want to lisence the production | 03:37 |
| de-facto | they did a great job, i give them that, but they need to scale much much better | 03:37 |
| nixonix | one thing is, they have a small team that goes around to get the production right | 03:38 |
| de-facto | yeah any of their "bottlenecks" must be addressed simultaneously, so why are we not seeing the vaccine production plants and their supply lines shooting out of ground like mushrooms? | 03:39 |
| nixonix | and that patent waiving doesnt help, because they wont be revealing their trade secrets. but some of the stuff could be used, like those pseudouridine substitutions | 03:39 |
| de-facto | manufacturers would not do that on their own, because they assume they would not need that production capacity later when the pandemic is over | 03:40 |
| nixonix | although i think its bad moral, when they develop something and might lose the rights for it. so maybe those should be evaluated as special cases, like that kariko's patent | 03:40 |
| de-facto | yet governments allow those manufacturers to do their own decisions while pretty much the whole world relies on them | 03:40 |
| de-facto | that is not good enough, i am sorry | 03:40 |
| de-facto | yeah they should keep their rights, they should keep their manufacturing facilities, why not? | 03:41 |
| de-facto | there is only ONE thing that ever matters: output rates of production lines | 03:41 |
| de-facto | whatever it takes to do that MUST be done, otherwise we can NOT rely on that approach globally | 03:41 |
| nixonix | governments should just pour enough money to it to make it happen fast. instead they were bargaining the price for months. eu | 03:42 |
| de-facto | lets negate that statement: if it is not ensured that output rates of vaccine manufacturing facilities are maximized we simply can not rely on vaccinations globally | 03:42 |
| nixonix | now israel hasnt paid the later batches to pfizer. its some political issue, i wont sign the payment unless netanyahu appoints the minister or something | 03:43 |
| de-facto | yeah stupid EU, being proud they got good prices | 03:43 |
| de-facto | why dont they go like "shut up, take my money and guarantee production rate X" | 03:44 |
| nixonix | israel did that, and according to rumours paid only double or so. and provided them as much data as possible | 03:44 |
| de-facto | even if a single dose would cost 10-fold as much, it would probably be a very good deal if it enables global control of COVID, because the economic impact of it being a problem is gigantic | 03:44 |
| de-facto | but yeah, instead we wait... with very good prices and orders of magnitude too low production rates | 03:46 |
| -Bridgestorm- 🏠 Sismo! Earthquake! 5.9 Mww tremor, registered by EMSC,Sismos_CSN,US, occurred 18 minutes ago (01:29:13 UTC), with a crescent moon, Near Coast Of Central Chile (-28.72, -71.61) ± 4 km, ↓5 km likely felt 250 km away (in Huasco, Vallenar, La Serena, Coquimbo, Copiapó…) by 622200 people (earthquake.usgs.gov) | 03:48 | |
| de-facto | i dont think patents or license issues stand in the way, its the general approach, not even all the available infrastructure is in use for production | 03:48 |
| de-facto | e.g. many big companies with the ability to produce are not doing so, maybe because they got contracts with some competitor on the market that blocks them from producing | 03:49 |
| de-facto | i bet that also is the case with supply chains | 03:49 |
| nixonix | then its that PEG produced in usa, who apparently doesnt want to push them to produce more for europe and other world. and the same with bioreactor bags for other vaccines | 03:50 |
| de-facto | why would it be so difficult for big companies like e.g. Bayer or such to produce PEG or plastic bags or such? | 03:51 |
| de-facto | and honestly: if they would not have the license to produce that, who would stop them from doing so without license anyhow? | 03:52 |
| de-facto | it is even legal in Germany to do that in crisis times | 03:52 |
| de-facto | patents are null | 03:52 |
| de-facto | not later on but right now they essentially are | 03:52 |
| nixonix | yeah could be patent issues. with a bit emergency law usage that can be circumvented | 03:52 |
| de-facto | exactly | 03:53 |
| de-facto | i dont see where that limits them from just addressing their so called supply chain problems, why would they not just go ahead and build their own supply lines | 03:53 |
| de-facto | half a year by now, probably they knew for much longer time already what shortages they would face when scaling up | 03:54 |
| de-facto | i mean the list of requirements was already known in early 2020 | 03:54 |
| de-facto | like how much PEG they need for a dose etc | 03:54 |
| de-facto | or whatever else, all the resources were known as soon as they solved scaling to industrial production | 03:55 |
| de-facto | so why dont they do it in parallel by now? | 03:55 |
| nixonix | https://www.ft.com/content/fa1e0d22-71f2-401f-9971-fa27313570ab | 03:55 |
| de-facto | and yes i know what Derek Lowe wrote about it, i dont buy it | 03:56 |
| de-facto | why not give the companies that currently produce the vaccines everything they ask for, but if they dont scale up for demanded production rates confiscate them completely and take over the control ? | 04:00 |
| de-facto | production MUST scale at any costs | 04:01 |
| -Bridgestorm- 🌒 Sismo! Earthquake! 6.0 Mw tremor, registered by EMSC, occurred 59 minutes ago (01:01:35 UTC), with a crescent moon, Near Coast Of Central Chile (-28.78, -71.49) likely felt 270 km away (in Vallenar, Huasco, Freirina…) by 53700 people (www.seismicportal.eu) | 04:01 | |
| de-facto | nixonix, your link is not accessible but this is the archive of it https://archive.is/bxti3 | 04:02 |
| nixonix | yeah. i thought you guys know the archives, and i was still opening it myself | 04:03 |
| nixonix | but ok, next time again | 04:03 |
| de-facto | i am not for stealing the patents form the companies i am for forcing them to comply with production rates and if they dont terminate them | 04:03 |
| de-facto | yeah we will see, i hope this gets solved soon, we really need much more production rates | 04:04 |
| de-facto | they do a good job, just way too slow | 04:04 |
| de-facto | fortunately mRNA tech can scale, in principle at least, very well | 04:05 |
| de-facto | afaik no cells are needed at any production step, the whole pipeline is completely artificial | 04:05 |
| de-facto | well maybe except for producing the initial DNA template, but that is not a bottleneck at al | 04:06 |
| de-facto | the technology is there, the real issue is how to make it available to anyone worldwide simultaneously? | 04:08 |
| de-facto | and i dont mean patent waivers, i mean the vaccine in its final and most up-to-date in its perfected form | 04:09 |
| de-facto | we need that especially for countries that dont have as much medical infrastructure, like Africa for example | 04:10 |
| de-facto | but the problem is not solved with that, its one step that helps with lowering incidence, that is what really has to be done, restrict bruteforcing | 04:11 |
| de-facto | do we have a website that estimates worldwide "dark cases" e.g. how many more cases there are in reality compared to each countries reported rates? | 04:12 |
| de-facto | i suspect those will differ gigantically when comparing different countries | 04:12 |
| de-facto | but it would be important to have a metric for ongoing *real* number of infections (maybe by having a representative seroprevalence monitoring accompanying testing) just so that we would know where currently the most bruteforcing happens | 04:14 |
| de-facto | to have an estimate how many virions are produced at each place per citizen, to estimate the likelihood of occurrence of new evasive mutations | 04:14 |
| de-facto | that would be necessary to coordinate global resources in a way that is optimized at reducing number of virions produced globally (and not in continents or countries) | 04:15 |
| de-facto | we really need a globally coordinated approach | 04:15 |
| de-facto | i dont see how we could succeed without that | 04:16 |
| de-facto | it will just be like Sisyphus otherwise | 04:16 |
| de-facto | vaccine a whole country, bring incidence down, great, but then how to prevent import of a new evasive mutant that was breeded elsewhere | 04:17 |
| de-facto | we can already observe that happening | 04:17 |
| de-facto | e.g. UK pretty much defeated Alpha, then imported Delta | 04:17 |
| de-facto | exactly taht will happen in all the other EU countries, USA etc | 04:18 |
| de-facto | even in Israel they have increased incidence by an order of magnitude again | 04:18 |
| de-facto | they did extremely well there, but eventually could not prevent import of Delta anymore | 04:19 |
| de-facto | they were down to 10 cases now they got 300 per day | 04:21 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for St. Martin: +38 cases (now 2314), +25 deaths (now 37) since 8 days ago — Canada: +35 deaths (now 26348) since 21 hours ago | 04:39 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.26.21259487v1 | 04:41 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.medrxiv.org: The Emergence of SARS-CoV-2 Variant Lambda (C.37) in South America | medRxiv | 04:41 |
| de-facto | " It presents a deletion in the ORF1a gene (Δ3675-3677), also found in variants of concern (VOCs) Alpha, Beta, and Gamma, and seven non-synonymous mutations in the Spike gene (Δ247-253, G75V, T76I, L452Q, F490S, T859N)." | 04:41 |
| de-facto | "Initially reported in Lima, Peru, in late December 2020, it now accounts for almost 100% of Peruvian genomes in April 2021. It is expanding in Chile and Argentina, and there is evidence of onward transmission in Colombia, Mexico, the USA, Germany, and Israel. On June 15, 2021, the World Health Organization designated C.37 as Variant of Interest (VOI) Lambda." | 04:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: South Africa hits a new record with 26,000 daily Covid-19 cases → https://is.gd/s6EbTL | 04:55 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Mexico: +8200 cases (now 2.5 million), +213 deaths (now 233580) since 23 hours ago — United Kingdom: +18356 cases (now 4.9 million), +14 deaths (now 128335) since 21 hours ago — Netherlands: +1445 cases (now 1.7 million) since 21 hours ago — France: +9 deaths (now 111226) since 21 hours ago | 05:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Europe in vaccination race against COVID-19’s delta variant → https://is.gd/03FHCX | 05:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Covid-19: Compelling health argument for easing lockdown - Javid: Restrictions have saved countless lives but we need to learn to live with Covid, the health secretary says. → https://is.gd/K72SZg | 05:27 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Panama: +1317 cases (now 407330), +7 deaths (now 6567) since 23 hours ago | 05:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Brazil vaccine scandal imperils Jair Bolsonaro as protests spread → https://is.gd/hmYpbL | 05:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from This Week In Virology: TWiV 776: Yes! We have no pangolins: TWiV reviews an analysis of animal sales from Wuhan wet markets before the COVID-19 pandemic, control of dengue by release of Wolbachia -infected mosquitoes, and fatal dengue acquired in Florida. → https://is.gd/uHjIdW | 06:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Bhutan's king has been hiking and camping across his mountainous kingdom to oversee pandemic measures → https://is.gd/Pbv5s3 | 06:29 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Germany: +149 deaths (now 91384) since 17 hours ago | 06:31 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Mexico City, Mexico: +2148 cases (now 690995), +20 deaths (now 34755) since a day ago — Saint Petersburg, Russia: +1733 cases (now 474668), +110 deaths (now 16672) since a day ago — Tokyo, Japan: +716 cases (now 176051) since a day ago — Northern Ireland, United Kingdom: +460 cases (now 128247) since a day ago | 07:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid 19 coronavirus border exemptions: Visas approved for 14 wealthy investors → https://is.gd/iaHrWu | 07:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from Francois Balloux: @james_e_baldwin: RT by @BallouxFrancois: A clique of academics & officials - not just the zero covid gurus - have decided that covid demonstrates the public are willing to make dramatic sacrifices to solve major problems, and that this can be used in climate policy. This is a terrible mistake imo 1/ → https://is.gd/HWJ7Tw | 08:23 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for India: +43071 cases (now 30.5 million), +880 deaths (now 401690) since 23 hours ago | 08:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | July 04, 2021: Please refer to our Wiki for more information on COVID-19 and our sub. You can find answers to frequently asked questions in our FAQ , where there is valuable information such as our: → https://is.gd/qiqYs7 | 09:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): A "manageable worst case scenario" model for the UK's exit wave - and tracking actual data against it: A couple of days ago I created a new model to explore some possible trajectories of the UK covid situation going forward. My main point of curiosity was learning how many people might be expected to self-isolate at any given [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/idsjNf | 10:38 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Germany: +284 cases (now 3.7 million) since 22 hours ago | 10:40 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for British Virgin Islands: +64 cases (now 456) since 2 days ago | 11:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: Portugal’s Costa chides Germany over coronavirus travel restrictions: Prime minister says Germany has had 'restrictive and cautious' coronavirus policy — 'sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly.' → https://is.gd/NhmcCy | 11:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid-19: Crowds flee Dhaka ahead of strict Bangladesh lockdown → https://is.gd/XyG7ow | 11:40 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Fiji: +522 cases (now 6161), +3 deaths (now 30) since a day ago | 12:07 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Libya: +719 cases (now 195042), +6 deaths (now 3211) since a day ago — Malta: +12 cases (now 30652) since 23 hours ago | 13:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from PubMed: Woodchuck Hepatitis Virus Post-Transcriptional Regulation Element (WPRE) Promotes Anti-CD19 BiTE Expression in Expi293 Cells: BACKGROUND: Bispecific antibodies represent an important class of monoclonal antibodies (mAbs), with great therapeutic potentials due to their ability to target simultaneously two distinct epitopes. The [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/CwhgtH | 13:55 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Nepal: +1042 cases (now 644622), +27 deaths (now 9225) since a day ago — Germany: +282 cases (now 3.7 million) since 23 hours ago | 14:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Face masks to become a personal choice in England, says minister → https://is.gd/LExUkK | 14:58 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for N. Cyprus: +66 cases (now 8278) since a day ago | 15:00 |
| de-facto | .title https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virophage | 16:08 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From en.wikipedia.org: Virophage - Wikipedia | 16:08 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Germany: +279 cases (now 3.7 million) since 23 hours ago | 16:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from Francois Balloux: @BallouxFrancois: I have some revelations to make. Essentially everyone is expected to catch #COVID19, multiple times during their life. As such, the relevant question is not if people will get exposed to the virus but when they catch it for the first time.That was the bad news.1/ → https://is.gd/i7hzW6 | 16:55 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/indonesia/ | 17:07 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.worldometers.info: Indonesia COVID: 2,284,084 Cases and 60,582 Deaths - Worldometer | 17:07 |
| de-facto | that looks very bad, they got their highest and steepest peak, i assume due to delta | 17:08 |
| de-facto | .title https://covid19.go.id/peta-sebaran | 17:09 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From covid19.go.id: Peta Sebaran | Covid19.go.id | 17:09 |
| de-facto | seems positivity rate is crazy high, in tageschau they said 9/10 tests in some regions of Java come back positive | 17:13 |
| de-facto | is it Delta + traveling due to end of Ramadan? | 17:14 |
| de-facto | hopefully the lockdown works | 17:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): Sunday 04 July 2021 Update: submitted by /u/HippolasCage to r/CoronavirusUK → https://is.gd/RzOTAV | 17:27 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Bangladesh: +8661 cases (now 944917), +153 deaths (now 15065) since a day ago | 17:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express (Health): Life-style: Colony of shy Albanian pelicans flourishes during pandemic → https://is.gd/R601wi | 18:19 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Cuba: +3519 cases (now 204247), +14 deaths (now 1351) since 21 hours ago — United Kingdom: +23818 cases (now 4.9 million) since 23 hours ago | 18:38 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Myanmar: +2318 cases (now 165405), +35 deaths (now 3419) since 22 hours ago — Italy: +806 cases (now 4.3 million), +12 deaths (now 127649) since a day ago | 19:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from CDC (old): Cases in the U.S.: CDC COVID Data Tracker - Cases and Deaths by State → https://is.gd/yJtqEF | 19:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from Francois Balloux: @BallouxFrancois: I appreciate that everyone's a bit tense. Though, I believe that anyone using the terms 'genocide' and 'eugenics' in the context of different pandemic mitigation strategies should look up what those words really mean. → https://is.gd/fGEm1t | 20:03 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Germany: +278 cases (now 3.7 million) since 22 hours ago | 20:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Pfizer vaccine 70% effective against Delta variant, claims study in Israel → https://is.gd/9IfoHk | 21:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): COVID19: Moxidectin and ivermectin inhibit SARS-CoV-2 replication in Vero E6 cells but not in human primary airway epithelium cells → https://is.gd/7zMRhm | 22:58 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Canada: +22 deaths (now 26360) since 21 hours ago | 23:36 |
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