| Brainstorm | Updates for Zimbabwe: +2845 cases (now 73271), +38 deaths (now 2274) since 19 hours ago — Canada: +11 deaths (now 26447) since 21 hours ago | 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Moderna accused of parking vaccine profits in tax havens: report → https://is.gd/ueAilZ | 00:07 |
| himesama | i wonder if i should replace the half mask p100 cartridges with fresh ones just in case the old ones got moist or tooold or something | 00:12 |
| himesama | problem is exhale valve sticks so you have to huff a lot ot exhale to unstick it | 00:12 |
| himesama | idk if i sould wear an n95 (valved, but taped over) instead but trust the half faceplate to fit better | 00:13 |
| de-facto | open all the windows | 00:30 |
| de-facto | put a fan at each on one side of house, let it blow through all rooms | 00:32 |
| de-facto | or is it too hot in Arizona? | 00:33 |
| de-facto | are you ryouma? | 00:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Lancet (Online): [Correspondence] Antibody response after second BNT162b2 dose in allogeneic HSCT recipients: The prognosis of COVID-19 infection is poor in hematopoietic stem-cell transplant (HSCT) recipients.1,2 In a large multicentric series of 318 HSCT recipients (184 allogeneic HSCT recipients and 134 autologous HSCT recipients), the [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/ocX3OR | 00:38 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Morocco: +1897 cases (now 545016), +11 deaths (now 9395) since a day ago — Curacao: +23 cases (now 12418) since 19 hours ago | 00:39 |
| pwr22 | Boris is planning for 200 deaths a day here in the UK | 00:40 |
| pwr22 | If they reach that level, I'd like to see him keep them there | 00:40 |
| dTal | that's optimistic | 00:40 |
| dTal | it'll be 100 in 2 weeks | 00:40 |
| pwr22 | Plus can we not prioritise finances / pubs / shopping without masks over human lives please? | 00:41 |
| pwr22 | As someone with a lot of vulnerable loved ones it disgusts me and I hate things her so much right now | 00:41 |
| dTal | I'm upset too and also scared | 00:42 |
| dTal | it'll be impossible to avoid covid at the rates we're about to see | 00:42 |
| dTal | I don't want to live with long covid for the next couple of years, maybe even for life | 00:42 |
| dTal | the brain fog could cost me my doctorate | 00:43 |
| tilikum | when does the protection of the vaccine wear off | 00:43 |
| tilikum | i've been vaccinated since feb 7 | 00:43 |
| tilikum | moderna | 00:43 |
| tilikum | im worried about losing my protection | 00:43 |
| dTal | tilikum: nobody knows exactly, natural immunity seems to last "about 6 months" but it's not a binary thing, I'm hearing "about a year" for the vaccines | 00:44 |
| dTal | but that's super vague and ballparky | 00:44 |
| tilikum | ok | 00:44 |
| LjL | do you want to see something weird in a possibly less overarchingly scary way than usual? | 00:44 |
| LjL | <apropos> ● [virology] Fluorescence of ocular surface in a Covid -19 patient after Favipiravir treatment: a case report → https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12985-021-01610-3 | 00:44 |
| dTal | LjL: what am I looking at | 00:45 |
| LjL | dTal, fluorescence, apparently | 00:45 |
| dTal | I mean that's a pain in the ass for him but holy shit that is one hell of an effect if you're going clubbing | 00:47 |
| LjL | dTal, which, if you've been a COVID patient, you can do semi-safely! at least for yourself, for others, you better be sure of your negative test | 00:49 |
| dTal | "safely" | 00:50 |
| dTal | I mean, you won't see for shit | 00:50 |
| dTal | might bump your head | 00:50 |
| LjL | dTal, it's all relative. i bumped my head against a low-hanging tree branch today just because i was tending at someone's IRC needs instead of looking at the sidewalk i was walking on | 00:51 |
| dTal | LjL how do you IRC while walking | 00:52 |
| LjL | by bumping into things, clearly | 00:52 |
| dTal | and also as a matter of friendly advice, I think you should do it less | 00:52 |
| dTal | but I am curious as to the practicality of it | 00:52 |
| LjL | i pause when crossing the street | 00:52 |
| dTal | do you use your phone? I've always found IRC from a phone to be a pain | 00:52 |
| LjL | err, yes, i use my phone, what did you think, that i walked with a laptop rest strapped to my chest | 00:53 |
| dTal | I could just about do it from my GPD MicroPC but I assume you don't have one of those | 00:53 |
| LjL | GPD Pocket, Pocket 2 and Pocket Max have been on my ebay watchlist for ages | 00:53 |
| LjL | but i think i won't buy anything from ebay ever again | 00:53 |
| dTal | screw em and get the Micro PC | 00:53 |
| LjL | every time i did it lately it went all wrong | 00:53 |
| LjL | nah | 00:53 |
| LjL | the Micro PC is meh | 00:54 |
| dTal | no man it's the bomb | 00:54 |
| dTal | I'd never trade it for a pocket | 00:54 |
| dTal | the shape of it is extremely ergonomic to hold and thumb type, the pocket is kinda too big for that | 00:54 |
| dTal | and the pocket's port selection is lam | 00:54 |
| dTal | *lame | 00:55 |
| LjL | i don't know, precisely because typing on the phone isn't awesome, i do appreciate a keyboard if it's small yet spacious. the Micro tries to have like ALL THE KEYS in Micro form factor | 00:55 |
| dTal | Trust me, I had a Cosmo Communicator for a while | 00:55 |
| dTal | which is absolutely the best miniature touch-type keyboard you can get on the go | 00:55 |
| LjL | and i had a Psion 5mx! actually several! | 00:56 |
| pwr22 | I used to walk around and read from a kindle at the same time | 00:56 |
| dTal | 90 percent of the time though I was just thumb typing with it | 00:56 |
| pwr22 | It required a lot of concentration and effort to do | 00:56 |
| pwr22 | I don't do it anymore lol | 00:56 |
| dTal | the Micro PC is *wayyy* superior, if it could make phone calls I would not have an Android anymore | 00:57 |
| LjL | anyway, i have really kind of given up on the Pocket (2), which is really just something cute but that i don't have a *real* use for... on the other hand, the Max may replace my not-so-old-yet-aging laplet, which is my primary computer, 12" convertible (keyboard contains an additional battery but everything else is in the screen) | 00:57 |
| LjL | i suspect for tapping on the go i'll keep using my phone after all | 00:57 |
| pwr22 | I'm not a fan of small form factor things with physical keyboards on them | 00:57 |
| dTal | LjL, kick pwr22 | 00:58 |
| pwr22 | I do have a GPD XD+ which is sweet though | 00:58 |
| LjL | pwr22, me neither, if they're too small, but i'm similarly not a fan of typing on virtual keyboards that are even smaller :P | 00:58 |
| dTal | :O | 00:58 |
| dTal | small form factor things with physical keyboards on them are basically my reason for existing | 00:58 |
| LjL | dTal, no you do it, i need to kick him on my own turn for having a handheld console instead of a handheld computer | 00:58 |
| LjL | dTal, i mean, it really depends on how small and how usable they are | 00:59 |
| LjL | dTal, i still kinda hate typing on the virtual keyboard (though somehow i do it a lot lately even when i'm at home), but when i try typing on my N900 or heck my old Motorola Milestone, i realize that's not really any better | 00:59 |
| LjL | a Psion is something else, and i didn't thumb-type on it, i mostly touch-typed, but, while sitting, not while walking | 01:00 |
| dTal | Yeah, I got a Unihertz Titan that is a bit of an ergonomic disappointment | 01:00 |
| dTal | but believe me - the Micro PC is something special | 01:00 |
| dTal | the only other thing like it I believe is the OpenPandora | 01:00 |
| dTal | I'm typing to you on it right now, I can do about 50 wpm | 01:01 |
| LjL | but could you type on it while walking! | 01:01 |
| dTal | which considering I can do about 75 on my full size Thinkpad, I don't consider too shbby | 01:01 |
| dTal | I can and have | 01:01 |
| LjL | 50 thumb or touch? | 01:01 |
| dTal | although it's mainly a challenge for the concentration | 01:01 |
| dTal | thumb | 01:02 |
| dTal | I got lightning thumbs | 01:02 |
| dTal | you can't touch type on the Micro PC, it's too small really | 01:02 |
| LjL | well, that's why i was looking at the other ones :P | 01:02 |
| dTal | You can finger-type with a bit of practice but it's not the same | 01:03 |
| LjL | well i don't touch-type the standard way anyway | 01:03 |
| LjL | i hardly use my little fingers | 01:03 |
| LjL | and my fingering is not standard | 01:03 |
| LjL | but, to the extent i touch type, i'd touch type on my psion... slower | 01:03 |
| LjL | i think we need some sort of physical place where we can try out these things | 01:04 |
| LjL | but of course that will never be possible, nobody sane would touch something other people have touched | 01:05 |
| dTal | I mean I used to think like you, but ultimately realized that wanting something mobile, and wanting something you have to put down on a desk to type on, were kind of incompatible gials | 01:05 |
| dTal | thumb typing is where it's at | 01:05 |
| dTal | s/gials/goals | 01:05 |
| dTal | I'm chatting with you on the Micro PC by the way :p | 01:06 |
| dTal | ...probably just after a typo wasn't the best time to mention that huh... | 01:06 |
| LjL | dTal, define "mobile"... my 12" 1.4kg thing is almost ideal (just a bit too large) to both use as my main computer, touchtype on, and move to every room, i hardly ever leave a room without it. but of course i wouldn't walk with it. but would i walk with a Micro PC? i'm really not sure... | 01:06 |
| LjL | you already mentioned it though | 01:07 |
| dTal | Mobile = pocketable | 01:07 |
| LjL | <dTal> I'm typing to you on it right now, I can do about 50 wpm | 01:07 |
| dTal | oh, sorry. I'm just obsessed | 01:07 |
| dTal | I love this thing | 01:07 |
| LjL | for the kind of thing that it tries to be (as opposed to its siblings) though | 01:07 |
| LjL | it could have a removable battery | 01:07 |
| dTal | Eh, it would compromise its structural integrity for sure | 01:08 |
| dTal | and you can *replace* the battery, you just need a screwdriver | 01:08 |
| dTal | and it's USB-C charge so you can still carry extra batteries | 01:08 |
| LjL | it says it's two lipo connected in series, *i* probably wouldn't replace it without fretting a lot ;( | 01:09 |
| dTal | one thing I really like about it is that it's very easy to hold without accidentally pressing something | 01:10 |
| LjL | except the touchpad? | 01:10 |
| LjL | also is there a leftie version (okay i'm just nitpicking, i'm not one) | 01:10 |
| dTal | No, the corners nestle into the palms of your hand and you grip the "shoulders" with thumb and forefinger | 01:11 |
| dTal | no leftie version :( I agree that's a sad state of affairs | 01:11 |
| dTal | anyway, let's get back on topic. Can I get ahold of Favipiravir and is it safe | 01:13 |
| dTal | for, uh, science | 01:13 |
| LjL | i don't think i could possibly even spell it without having it pre-written in front of me | 01:15 |
| LjL | at least not with this crappy Asus keyboard. with a Micro PC, maybe... | 01:15 |
| LjL | %wik favipiravir | 01:16 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, from English Wikipedia: Favipiravir, sold under the brand name Avigan among others, is an antiviral medication used to treat influenza in Japan. It is also being studied to treat a number of other viral infections, including SARS-CoV-2. Like the experimental antiviral drugs T-1105 and T-1106, it is a pyrazinecarboxamide derivative. → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Favipiravir | 01:16 |
| LjL | Avigan! i've heard of that one | 01:16 |
| LjL | oh it's the Fujifilm drug | 01:16 |
| LjL | makes sense it gets you a little photo-something | 01:16 |
| LjL | "Despite demonstrating safety in more than 2,000 patients and showing accelerated clearance of influenza virus by 6 to 14 hours in the unpublished Phase III trials[citation needed], favipiravir remains unapproved in the UK and the USA.[15]" | 01:17 |
| LjL | maybe it would help if they published it | 01:17 |
| LjL | "Despite limited data on efficacy, as of March 2021 favipiravir is widely prescribed for outpatient treatment of mild to moderate COVID-19 in Hungary.[18] Patients are required to sign a consent form before obtaining the drug." ← sounds like Hungary | 01:18 |
| LjL | wow, it cures Nipah in hamsters | 01:19 |
| LjL | and i do mean cures | 01:19 |
| dTal | So it's fine for you, fights viruses, and makes you look cool as shit under a blacklight | 01:19 |
| dTal | I want some | 01:19 |
| LjL | it's teratogen. you aren't pregnant? | 01:20 |
| dTal | ITS NOT A TOOMAH | 01:21 |
| LjL | if i were India i'd definitely want to be able to produce this drug for the next Nipah outbreak | 01:22 |
| LjL | (also if i were Bangladesh or uh Malaysia i guess but... India is probably the one with enough of a chance to be able to make it) | 01:22 |
| dTal | (for the uncultured, that's a reference to Arnold Schwarzenegger's finest film, Junior (1994)) | 01:22 |
| LjL | dTal, you mean the ex governor of California? | 01:23 |
| dTal | He's famed for many things, yes | 01:24 |
| LjL | he becomes intertwined with various different things, like a tumor? | 01:25 |
| dTal | In a manner of speaking. He gets pregnant. | 01:26 |
| LjL | uncontrolled reproduction is indeed a hallmark of cancer | 01:26 |
| LjL | and humans | 01:26 |
| LjL | in something that may or may not be a coincidence | 01:27 |
| dTal | okay Agent Smith | 01:27 |
| LjL-Matrix | dTal: that would be me | 01:36 |
| LjL | dTal, pwr22: maybe you knew already, but in marginally better than "everything reopens completely" news, <Brainstorm> New from Reddit (test): CoronavirusUK: Masks to remain compulsory on London tube, buses and trains → https://is.gd/AsM89W | 01:39 |
| LjL | but maybe that doesn't help you if you aren't in London, eh ;( | 01:40 |
| LjL | "While unions want face coverings to remain, they have argued that staff cannot ensure compliance without police intervention, and warned of the potential for disruption. The London policy can only be enforced by refusing entry or service rather than fines or prosecution after 19 July." | 01:41 |
| LjL | sigh | 01:41 |
| LjL | "Operator Avanti, which runs trains between London and Scotland and Wales, will make announcements at the last stations in England informing passengers that masks will be mandatory for the rest of the journey." -.- | 01:42 |
| LjL | "The rail safety advisory body RSSB has said train travel is safe and the risk from Covid is “tolerably low”. Its director, Ali Chegini, said: “Face coverings do reduce the risk of viral transmission, and so using them on public transport, particularly when crowded, is very sensible, regardless of whether this is recommended as good practice, or a legal requirement.”" | 01:44 |
| * LjL headdesks | 01:44 | |
| joerg | don't you also hate this slomo coverage of train wreck? with trailer a year in advance already | 01:44 |
| LjL | i'm not very qualified to say how much i hate it, since my life was not being made proper use of even before it | 01:45 |
| de-facto | btw Greece still spiking, not sure about NL, some less infections but still high, need more days | 01:46 |
| LjL | Greece is mainly fueled by Athens by the way. not very surprising i guess | 01:47 |
| de-facto | hope they can regain control | 01:47 |
| joerg | >> Third, preliminary modelling data9 suggest the government's strategy provides fertile ground for the emergence of vaccine-resistant variants. This would place all at risk, including those already vaccinated, within the UK and globally. << https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)01589-0/fulltext?hss_channel=tw-27013292a | 01:47 |
| LjL | i'm not sure they even plan to. tourism season needs to open. | 01:47 |
| LjL | Greece looks kinda like it might be reaching a peak though actually | 01:48 |
| LjL | the NL also had a couple of days of downtrend but i'd like to see another couple before i try to make any sense of it | 01:49 |
| de-facto | yeah same, i dont trust it yet, i hope for the best | 01:49 |
| LjL | or maybe i just need to see the official dashboard since offloop is a a day or two behind | 01:49 |
| himesama | where is a good curve site at county level in us? | 01:49 |
| LjL | hmm it is going down 3 days in a row, according to https://coronadashboard.government.nl/ | 01:50 |
| LjL | %links tracker counties | 01:50 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Sorry, nothing found. Try with broader keywords | 01:50 |
| himesama | not clear if offloop ius getting sufficient data at its state level | 01:50 |
| joerg | everybody held it for so long, now in vicinity of the shithouse they start running and a 3m from the goal line they finally piss their pants | 01:51 |
| LjL | you know, i'm not entirely sure if there's anything below state level, unless you go to the sites of individual states | 01:52 |
| de-facto | btw merkel mentioned today that high incidence means breeding evasion mutations | 01:52 |
| LjL | my notes say that https://covidtracking.com/data/ has "the most detailed US data available". i don't remember writing that, but maybe i was right at least at the time... yet, it doesn't have counties | 01:52 |
| LjL | boo "As of March 7, 2021 we are no longer collecting new data. Learn about available federal data." | 01:52 |
| joerg | I can't believe I say this: I want Merkel back | 01:52 |
| LjL | i think this was the only site that was collecting US data independently from the federal government | 01:53 |
| LjL | himesama, https://coronavirus.1point3acres.com/en has an interface that isn't great but it does have counties | 01:56 |
| LjL | it gets them from state governments' sites apparently, it has links to the sources for each state | 01:56 |
| pwr22 | dTal: Shame about how the Pandora development ended up going. Things are almost as bad with the spiritual successor the Pyra ☹️ | 01:57 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Recent Commits to links:master: Change COVID Tracking Project to note it has ended, move it to the bo… ( https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/commit/008b8cbf6d9febe1c0ca982b2dc252be9343613d ) | 01:59 | |
| pwr22 | dTal: I thought "It's not a toomah" is from Kindergarten Cop? | 01:59 |
| pwr22 | https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjD34nOoOHxAhXMi1wKHYv0DYsQwqsBMAB6BAgMEAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dt_FRWUPcR7Y&usg=AOvVaw3tozFDI5kY71AFmMjOflc_ | 02:00 |
| pwr22 | -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_FRWUPcR7Y | 02:00 |
| pwr22 | Dammit google | 02:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from https://covid19.specops.network : ljl-covid: Change COVID Tracking Project to note it has ended, move it to the bo… → https://is.gd/VPRO7j | 02:01 |
| pwr22 | Kind of feel like the UK will go down in history now as a joke of a country what with our politics, brexit and our coronavirus fuckery | 02:03 |
| LjL | no | 02:04 |
| LjL | i mean, yes | 02:04 |
| LjL | but also no | 02:04 |
| LjL | most countries have been "jokes" in the handling of COVID in one way or another (often several ways) | 02:05 |
| LjL | the UK has been a mixed bag | 02:05 |
| LjL | initial "herd immunity strategy" quickly turned into "no you misunderstood us", then still half-assed containment strategy, but much better vaccine deployment than the EU | 02:06 |
| LjL | (partly at the expense of the EU, but whatever) | 02:06 |
| pwr22 | Guest65: test | 02:10 |
| pwr22 | LjL: I just tried to enable that config option, not sure if it did anything | 02:10 |
| pwr22 | Things are still working at least 😀 | 02:10 |
| pwr22 | Ah I did it wrong 🤦♂️ | 02:11 |
| LjL-Matrix | Peter: i think you created the event but didn't actually put the option into it | 02:12 |
| pwr22 | I made the wrong type of event 🤦♂️ | 02:12 |
| LjL-Matrix | Peter: i think maybe we should let the event be created automatically, assuming it will be at some point, or inquire further. if the event gets created automatically for rooms that don't yet have it at some point, but we do have it, but it's incomplete, it might be counterproductive | 02:12 |
| LjL-Matrix | oh | 02:12 |
| LjL-Matrix | wonder why this wouldn't be in m.room.bridging but i don't really understand Matrix at all | 02:14 |
| himesama | i am going to try to get this ac installed today, even though there are many ifs. becasue if i don't the ciurve will rise. and i woul dwant to be vaccinated before any further work. and taht would take weeks. so i am goin to give a mask to the installer and tell him immunocompromised and no, j and j will not protect me, so tell me before walking near me and try to seal the mask. idk if this will wori. | 02:14 |
| pwr22 | I'm following official docs so should be fine | 02:14 |
| pwr22 | https://matrix-org.github.io/matrix-appservice-irc/latest/room_configuration.html | 02:14 |
| pwr22 | Still working okay 👍️ | 02:15 |
| LjL | pwr22, how do we verify the option is working though? i could try joining someone who's banned but the bridge would see the ban and act differently | 02:15 |
| LjL | (namely kick the user off the matrix side as well) | 02:16 |
| pwr22 | LjL: just assume it is working or will work at some point 😛 | 02:16 |
| LjL | :P | 02:16 |
| LjL | okay, let's watch the next netsplit then | 02:16 |
| pwr22 | Matrix state is just a json object so updating it should be fine | 02:16 |
| pwr22 | We could even remove the key if we need to I think | 02:17 |
| pwr22 | I also don't think they're gonna set them automatically either | 02:17 |
| pwr22 | Though they might put some nicer interface on configuring it | 02:17 |
| pwr22 | LjL: it's state resolution which is largely responsible for joining big matrix rooms being slow atm btw | 02:19 |
| pwr22 | It has to replay the whole history of the room or something like that | 02:19 |
| finely[m] | The central problem of this pandemic is the artificial scarcity of vaccines caused by enforcing intellectual property laws. Its even more absurd because most of the vaccines were developed with public money. Arguing about who should get how much vaccination, when; misses the point it is entirely within reach to produce enough vaccines to cover the entire world quickly. mRNA production facilitues can be built from scratch in 6 months. Its | 02:19 |
| finely[m] | madness we aren't doing it. | 02:19 |
| LjL-Matrix | finely: that's quite a delayed reply O.o | 02:20 |
| himesama | if bill gates ted talk were listened to that would hafve been useful. he predicted the pandemic and said what to do. | 02:21 |
| LjL-Matrix | Anyway I can agree in principle but then I'm sometimes told that with an enforced waiver of the patents, things wouldn't work out any better, and I'm skeptical of that but I also have to admit I hardly know even vaguely close to enough to have an opinion based on actual facts of the industry | 02:21 |
| pwr22 | Maybe I should go implement the different reply handling and config option for the bridge 😀 | 02:21 |
| pwr22 | Amusingly there's also a "half-shot" key in the state 😀 | 02:21 |
| pwr22 | > uk.half-shot.bridge | 02:22 |
| LjL-Matrix | Peter: in this case on IRC there was no sign of that being a reply, somehow | 02:22 |
| pwr22 | ha ha | 02:22 |
| LjL-Matrix | Peter: i told you that in the libera matrix room :P | 02:22 |
| pwr22 | Maybe halfshot turned them off due to complaints? | 02:22 |
| LjL-Matrix | <pwr22 "Maybe halfshot turned them off d"> I suspect it has something to do with how old the thing being replied to was | 02:23 |
| pwr22 | Ah lol, I hadn't read it yet | 02:23 |
| LjL-Matrix | Yes, this time the reply showed up | 02:23 |
| LjL | pwr22, but see, that does probably mean they sometimes add state automatically :P | 02:24 |
| finely[m] | <LjL-Matrix "finely: that's quite a delayed r"> Matrix client acting up I think. | 02:24 |
| himesama | "As of March 7, 2021 we are no longer collecting new data. Learn about available federal data." | 02:25 |
| LjL-Matrix | finely: probably Peter's fault for playing with state :P | 02:25 |
| pwr22 | LjL: yeah the bridge seems to keep a bunch of state in the room, which kind of makes sense | 02:26 |
| LjL-Matrix | the thing you replied to was actually send back on freenode :D | 02:26 |
| pwr22 | No separate DB where possible | 02:26 |
| LjL | himesama, yes, i mentioned that. i also gave you a different site that has county data... | 02:26 |
| finely[m] | <LjL-Matrix "the thing you replied to was act"> Ha. | 02:26 |
| LjL-Matrix | (in March) | 02:26 |
| pwr22 | dTal: apparently we had 50 deaths today so I'm thinking we'll actually be at 100 deaths a day in ONE week ☹️ | 02:29 |
| * pwr22 can't maths | 02:30 | |
| pwr22 | two weeks yeah | 02:30 |
| * LjL-Matrix invokes de-facto | 02:30 | |
| pwr22 | well a little under | 02:30 |
| pwr22 | is de-facto a Yu-Gi-Oh trap card? | 02:30 |
| LjL-Matrix | Peter: didn't Boris say that, like, deaths are the price to pay | 02:31 |
| pwr22 | Yeah but he implied we will peak at 200 deaths | 02:31 |
| LjL-Matrix | Peter: I don't know, are those absolutely strict? | 02:31 |
| pwr22 | and he kind of said it as thought it was unavoidable | 02:31 |
| pwr22 | They are pretty strict | 02:31 |
| LjL-Matrix | then maybe he might like them | 02:31 |
| pwr22 | In 4 weeks we are going to be at 250 deaths a day here ☹️ | 02:33 |
| pwr22 | And there's no way that's going to be the peak, I mean come on! | 02:33 |
| pwr22 | As healthcare is overwhelmed and when the season becomes colder we are going to be screwed | 02:33 |
| pwr22 | Plus throw in some more mutation | 02:34 |
| pwr22 | It frustrates me that if every household was provided a one month of long life food and forced to self isolate that we could completely eradicate the virus 🤦♂️ | 02:35 |
| pwr22 | It's not an insurmountable obstacle | 02:35 |
| pwr22 | And if we actually took things that strictly from the offset | 02:35 |
| pwr22 | We could have just done it locally | 02:35 |
| LjL | pwr22, if from the offset, maybe... but your idea is a lot more complicated than it looks on the surface, a lot of people will have to leave home and work anyway, or infrastructures would collapse, starting from the electric grid, which wouldn't be great | 02:36 |
| LjL | and then you have healthcare, which must continue at least for emergencies | 02:36 |
| pwr22 | Sure, but it's about control I mean | 02:36 |
| pwr22 | We act like it's not possible to stop the spread here | 02:36 |
| pwr22 | but the failure is due to our incompetence | 02:36 |
| pwr22 | Given our resources and geography we are a joke | 02:36 |
| pwr22 | And the deaths are on us | 02:37 |
| LjL | if we think it's not possible, then we won't do the things that arguably make it possible | 02:37 |
| pwr22 | I would go as far as saying that most people frankly don't give a shit if a bunch of people they don't know die | 02:37 |
| pwr22 | They don't care if it's possible, it's not necessary for them so they don't even try | 02:37 |
| pwr22 | If even 20% of the populace don't conform with restrictions that's more than enough of a reservoir for the virus as the UK has incompetently shown 3 times now 🤦♂️ | 02:38 |
| LjL | a lot of the populace has people they do know who could die from COVID (well, technically all of the populace, albeit with diminishing probability) | 02:40 |
| LjL | pwr22, but well, you see that's already a possible issue with your strategy: i believe (though i have no hard data) when we had our initial lockdown with "no non-essential work", still more than 20% of people were going to work. granted, essential work in that case included working in stores were people bought essential goods, while if you gave them food for a months, that need would be mitigated... but there's still a lot of stuff in our society that just can't | 02:41 |
| LjL | stop being done | 02:41 |
| pwr22 | Sure, I'm not saying that it would work in practice and that just ordering it would make it work, it would have to be enforced | 02:42 |
| pwr22 | There's a lot of stuff that really can stop being done if we decided to commit to a firebreak month tbh | 02:43 |
| joerg | they didn't know it was impossible, so they just did it | 02:43 |
| pwr22 | Essential infrastructure and healthcare no, but you could still basically lock a lot of the UK up for a month | 02:43 |
| pwr22 | joerg: nice quote 😀 | 02:43 |
| joerg | twain iirc | 02:43 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Algeria: +941 cases (now 147883), +16 deaths (now 3867) since a day ago — Netherlands: +6026 cases (now 1.8 million), +2 deaths (now 17910) since 20 hours ago — Canada: +292 cases (now 1.4 million), +14 deaths (now 26450) since 20 hours ago — France: +34 deaths (now 111482) since 20 hours ago | 02:44 |
| pwr22 | Yup | 02:44 |
| pwr22 | I want to somehow work in "the perfect is the enemy of the good" | 02:44 |
| himesama | you are not the only person who is taken aback by the incompetence of authorities and the behaviors of human beings | 02:44 |
| LjL | pwr22, if you're going to have a month where everything stop to *eradicate* the virus, it needs to be perfect. good won't do, the virus will come back, then that month will have been for nothing, and people would never agree to do it again | 02:45 |
| pwr22 | LjL: from talking to most people here, the UK populace is not aware of the reality of a global pandemic or what it really takes to control | 02:45 |
| pwr22 | Most people don't understand viruses | 02:45 |
| pwr22 | Their transmission | 02:45 |
| pwr22 | Population level effects | 02:45 |
| pwr22 | Human bias and psychology | 02:45 |
| pwr22 | Or historical pandemics | 02:45 |
| LjL | can't say i understand a small fraction of all that | 02:46 |
| pwr22 | I think it was probably reasonable to assume we could get covid under control in about 4 years with a good response | 02:46 |
| himesama | if [we]* can sell dandruff shampoo to enormous numbers of people, we can sell the need to deal with a pandemic, in principle. [* much mischief is concealed in that word byt ou get the idea] | 02:47 |
| pwr22 | But we have here tried to do it in 4 months, then 9 months, then 16 months, each time with a lackluster effort in everything but the vaccine deployment | 02:47 |
| pwr22 | and rather than using the vaccine goodness to push down cases, we throw open the doors as soon as possible even though that will cause more deaths and breed resistant strains that will fuck the world over | 02:47 |
| pwr22 | Faster than we can engineer more adaptive vaccines | 02:48 |
| pwr22 | It's just...... so frustrating | 02:48 |
| LjL | "we'll be celebrating Easter with our relatives" —various government heads in 2020 | 02:48 |
| pwr22 | And when you try make something be something it isn't (a pandemic that pisses off in 15 minutes) you just end up wasting resources | 02:48 |
| pwr22 | There has just been blunder after blunder here | 02:48 |
| pwr22 | And a good chunk of the populace is completely belligerent | 02:49 |
| pwr22 | The postman doesn't wear a mask in our building btw | 02:49 |
| pwr22 | And he got in the lift with me and neither of us had masks on | 02:49 |
| LjL | pwr22, there are also psychological effects of the kind (you may know the name while i just know the thing) where if you tell people "come on, we'll be over it in 6 months, let's make an effort", they'll make that effort, while if you say "yeah well it will last 4 years, so here's what we must do", they'll be like "4 YEARS? fuck you, no way, i'd rather die now" | 02:49 |
| pwr22 | As far as he's concerned things are fine now | 02:49 |
| pwr22 | In reality, later that day I got a isolation notification | 02:50 |
| LjL | pwr22, err why didn't *you* have a mask on though | 02:50 |
| pwr22 | Because I'm already exposed to all the people in my flat continuously | 02:50 |
| joerg | LjL: >>celebrating Easter with our relatives<< might be correct though, alas in a different way than probably intended by original author | 02:50 |
| joerg | ;-) | 02:51 |
| pwr22 | And I rarely ever encounter anyone and only stick to a certain route | 02:51 |
| pwr22 | And because I was drinking my coffee | 02:51 |
| pwr22 | lol | 02:51 |
| LjL | pwr22, in your flat... or your building? i've always considered the lift one of the most potentially dangerous places. i've literally never taken the lift in 1.5 years, except once | 02:51 |
| pwr22 | I have to take the lift as my knees are messed up | 02:51 |
| pwr22 | I do still take the stairs a lot but coming up I tend to get the lift now | 02:51 |
| LjL | and also, it's mandatory to wear masks in our building, like in every building in italy. now you may say it's the UK government's fault for not making it mandatory there too, and i will agree to some extent, but... why not do it anyway? | 02:51 |
| pwr22 | And probably going down from now on | 02:52 |
| LjL | the ones of us who weren't clueless *knew* that aerosols would linger around | 02:52 |
| himesama | you probably know this but there are things you can put on your knees for going down stairs at least. might not help eiwh up stairs | 02:52 |
| pwr22 | LjL: I was drinking coffee is the why in this case | 02:52 |
| pwr22 | I had a mask with me | 02:52 |
| LjL | pwr22, i understand that for some people taking the stairs is not really an option. but i really would urge you to wear an FFP2 mask | 02:52 |
| pwr22 | I just didn't have time to get it on | 02:52 |
| pwr22 | I wish I did have it on if someone is going to get in a lift | 02:52 |
| pwr22 | but if he had asked me, I wouldn't have let him in lol | 02:52 |
| pwr22 | But he just jumped in | 02:52 |
| LjL | pwr22, should've jumped out ;( | 02:52 |
| LjL | pwr22, how many days has it been since that notification now btw? | 02:53 |
| pwr22 | My risk appetite is high enough that I don't really care about FFP2 | 02:53 |
| pwr22 | I'm not worried about me, but just people doing this | 02:53 |
| pwr22 | When I go somewhere else, I always wear a mask | 02:53 |
| LjL | pwr22, i don't specifically insist on an FFP2 in the general case, but on an elevator, i would, personally | 02:53 |
| pwr22 | It's mostly just annoying that he didn't even ask me | 02:54 |
| himesama | 3 = n95? 2= what? | 02:54 |
| pwr22 | And that's indicative of the general vibe I get here | 02:54 |
| pwr22 | I thought 2 = 95 | 02:54 |
| himesama | ok, idk | 02:54 |
| pwr22 | I might be wrong | 02:54 |
| himesama | 3 = n100? | 02:54 |
| LjL | pwr22, think about it, on an elevator there's normally NO air circulation, depending on how specifically the elevator is designed... and people who go into the elevator alone are likely to remove their mask and cough or whatever, and the time they stay in is short but nontrivial. to me an elevator is a dangerous place, more than some others that other people would, i imagine, be more scared of | 02:55 |
| LjL | himesama, 3 = N100 roughly, yes | 02:55 |
| pwr22 | himesama: "FP2 masks have a minimum of 94% filtration percentage whilst FFP3 masks are the most filtering mask of the FFPs. With a minimum filtration percentage of 99%, they protect against very fine particles such as asbestos." | 02:55 |
| pwr22 | Taken from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7248188/ | 02:55 |
| pwr22 | so FFP3 is N99 | 02:55 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Anyone here that actually got contaminated? | 02:56 |
| pwr22 | Exposed to covid? I may have done | 02:56 |
| pwr22 | LjL: it was 4 or 5 days back | 02:56 |
| LjL | woodhardigan[m], contaminated, or infected? anyway... i've always noticed... yeah, we've had some people, but for the amount of people in this channel, i've always thought there were really very few who said they had been infected | 02:57 |
| pwr22 | The app says, as of 2 hours ago, I can go outside now | 02:57 |
| woodhardigan[m] | You guys based in the UK? | 02:57 |
| himesama | i am wearing half faceplate with sticky exhale valve and imperfect inhale valves such that exhalations sometimes go through the filters. i hope the moisture doesnot do harm to the cartridges. installer here or i would switch out to new cartridges. | 02:57 |
| pwr22 | I am | 02:57 |
| LjL | i am not. we are from a few different places | 02:57 |
| himesama | although maybe it is ok to breathe both directions throuhg the cartridges | 02:57 |
| LjL | himesama, dTal tells me "no" | 02:57 |
| LjL | himesama, and also he tells me that yes, the moisture does do harm the cartridges | 02:58 |
| himesama | no to what? | 02:58 |
| LjL | himesama, it's not okay to breath both directions through the cartridges | 02:58 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Lucky you! Wish I never had been transferred from the UK to South America... Got it after a few months here | 02:58 |
| LjL | breathing in is okay, breathing out is not, hence the valves should kick in | 02:58 |
| himesama | is it worse than breathing both direactions throuhg a normal n95? | 02:58 |
| woodhardigan[m] | * Lucky you! Wish I had never been transferred from the UK to South America... Got it after a few months here | 02:59 |
| LjL | himesama, i don't really know for a fact, but dTal was quite adamant about this iirc. if anything, with an N95, you're normally only doing that for a few hours, while generally you'll tend to use a respirator's cartridges for much longer | 02:59 |
| pwr22 | woodhardigan: Oh, are you okay these days? | 03:00 |
| woodhardigan[m] | I was using N95 when I catch it | 03:00 |
| LjL | woodhardigan[m], i have a relative who got it, that's all for now. i hope it remains all. i am in a very hard-hit and early-hit region so i can say that for now, we've been lucky. | 03:00 |
| LjL | woodhardigan[m], what kind of N95 were you using, and how do you know you caught it while wearing it? | 03:01 |
| LjL | pwr22, wanna have a 2am walk then? :P | 03:02 |
| LjL | there isn't even curfew! | 03:02 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Well, personally dealing with the virus itself was a joke. But the aftermath is nightmare. Lost 22 pounds, and have been dealing with neuropatic and GI pain for a year | 03:02 |
| LjL | i'd rather pass myself because there's definitely a ton of mosquitoes outside after sunset ;( | 03:03 |
| pwr22 | LjL: ha ha, I'm working through the night today | 03:03 |
| pwr22 | Might go for a walk if I start getting too tired | 03:03 |
| LjL | woodhardigan[m], well... to the best of our knowledge so far, that *could* still be the virus :( | 03:03 |
| pwr22 | Should do another lateral flow test I guess | 03:03 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Can't build muscle anymore, get hurt easily when working out | 03:03 |
| LjL | woodhardigan[m], and we usually call that "long COVID", although i presume you know that. have you reported that to anyone, are you in any rehabilitation group, anything? | 03:03 |
| LjL | woodhardigan[m], also, have you got vaccinated? | 03:04 |
| pwr22 | Personally whenever I get a respiratory thing it takes me months to fully get over it so "long covid" isn't a new sort of thing for me | 03:04 |
| pwr22 | I think though that perhaps due to the novelty a lot more people are hit hard enough by covid to get more lasting effects | 03:05 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Oh yeah, I know it. Nothing, just going to doctors getting checked. I was actually doing fine for a while. I had two crisis so far, they debilitate me for a month normally and then I stay fine for around 4 months | 03:06 |
| LjL | woodhardigan[m], it's not unheard of, feeling better and than worse again, from what i've read in various places | 03:06 |
| woodhardigan[m] | <LjL "woodhardigan, also, have you got"> Not yet! I'm still stuck in South America. Was about to return to Italy in September, but guess I will have to delay for next year | 03:07 |
| LjL | woodhardigan[m], are you an Italian citizen? i don't know how the rules for return are | 03:07 |
| LjL | woodhardigan[m], without giving you false hopes, there are *some anecdotal reports* (that's all, really) of the vaccine helping, at least for a while, some people struggling with long COVID | 03:08 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Peter: Hows the situation in the UK? Is it still heard in circles, young ppl,etc ? | 03:09 |
| LjL | "heard"? | 03:11 |
| woodhardigan[m] | LjL: Yup. Born and partially bred. Getting in shouldn't be a problem for me | 03:11 |
| LjL | woodhardigan[m], Pfizer and Moderna are being used for people under 60 in Italy mostly, but J&J is often used for people who've had COVID (because it's a single shot, and they found that two shots seemed unnecessary). just for your planning in case. | 03:12 |
| woodhardigan[m] | LjL: From what I heard lot of youngsters were getting it. Had friends locked on their uni accommodations getting completely screwed by it. Not sure about it now. Was away for a while... | 03:12 |
| LjL | right now i'm not really sure either. in Israel, as of a while ago, about 50% of new COVID cases were actually in vaccinated people (so largely not youngsters) | 03:13 |
| LjL | and in the UK, although there aren't many deaths in total, 1/3rd of the deaths, also, were in vaccinated people | 03:13 |
| LjL | (i don't know about the proportion of the cases in the UK) | 03:13 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Thanks for the info! I was gonna ask which ones are giving the best responses for the infected | 03:13 |
| pwr22 | woodhardigan: covid is spreading a lot over here, it's the delta variant. Deaths are lower than before due to vaccine and summer effects but they are coming up at an alarming rate | 03:13 |
| pwr22 | LjL: Damn, I somehow lost my remaining buffer solution ampules so I won't be doing a test after all | 03:14 |
| LjL | woodhardigan[m], given a choice, i'd personally get Pfizer or Moderna, infected or not. but it makes sense to give J&J on a planning level because that way you free up shots for people who actually need two of them to get decent immunity, while on the other hand, there were some study results reporting that if you gave two shots to people who had had COVID, the second shot was a bit too side-effecty for comfort | 03:15 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Peter: That's terrible. Had some mates that vanished completely from the web. Keep wondering if they are fine | 03:15 |
| LjL | :( | 03:15 |
| pwr22 | woodhardigan: I hope they are | 03:17 |
| himesama | workman is gone. he had said he could install ac. decided he couldn't deal with it did not udnerstand it and will not come back as we have too many requirements. | 03:17 |
| LjL | himesama, was it someone from a store? like a general appliance store that sells A/C and also has people who installs it? | 03:17 |
| himesama | no | 03:18 |
| woodhardigan[m] | LjL: Interesting. I've read the same. I was considering AstraZeneca due to the 90% efficacy against the Delta Variant. I might get the shot soon as I leave from my current crisis | 03:18 |
| LjL | himesama, okay, just 'cause i had a bad experience with those, while licensed Daikin installers did a fine (though complex) job | 03:18 |
| LjL | woodhardigan[m], 90% efficacy against the Delta variant? it doesn't have 90% efficacy against most anything else, where do you get that? (not doubting that you got it from *somewhere*, but AZ figures always seem to be all over the place) | 03:19 |
| himesama | we'll probably have to go with licensed oners next but that has its own issues. might be more than one they might not be vaccinated they might have rules they cannot break etc. | 03:19 |
| LjL | himesama, for a complex installation they'd likely be more than one. it took 5 days here to install a split system covering 5 indoor units | 03:19 |
| pwr22 | If I had the choice I'd just get all the vaccines | 03:19 |
| pwr22 | 😛 | 03:19 |
| LjL | pwr22, that might not be entirely advisable either :P | 03:20 |
| pwr22 | I'm willing to chance it 😉 | 03:20 |
| pwr22 | I will be the most immune person in existence | 03:20 |
| pwr22 | So immune that anyone within a 5 metre radius is purged of covid!" | 03:20 |
| LjL | pwr22, more than those who got 6 doses instead of one by mistake? | 03:20 |
| woodhardigan[m] | LjL: Lol, correctingÇ 90% against COVID, and 67% against Delta. I got it from medical institutions website on South America | 03:21 |
| woodhardigan[m] | * LjL: Lol, correcting 90% against COVID, and 67% against Delta. I got it from medical institutions website on South America | 03:21 |
| pwr22 | Yeah, because I'll get them at different times 😛 | 03:21 |
| pwr22 | woodhardigan: I would get anyone I can get but if you have a choice I'd probably get moderna or pfizer especially if you're 30 or younger | 03:21 |
| LjL | woodhardigan[m], okay, *myself* i think the baseline efficacy is lower tha 90%. they played with their numbers a lot, and each country seems to use a different final figure. here it was 80%-something on the official leaflet for instance. let's call it "anywhere from 60% to 90% on the original strain" | 03:22 |
| himesama | i really wanted it installed today because the curve is going to rise very fast very soon very high i believe. i wanted to get vaccinated after installing acs so my body is not so stressed by extreme heat. | 03:22 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Peter: What about Pfizer and myocarditis on young adults? Just turned 20 lol | 03:23 |
| pwr22 | himesama: I don't think it really matters whether you get vaccinated before or after installing AC | 03:23 |
| LjL | woodhardigan[m], there there are all the subtleties about efficacy against hospitalization and deaths, which is important but gets more complicated and each trial was conducted a bit differently... but the reality as a i remember it from my timeline is that originally AZ announced it was somewhere between 60% and 70%, then they said "no it's actually 90% if we cherry-pick the trial arm that mistakenly got *half* the vaccine", then they changed that (conveniently | 03:24 |
| LjL | after the UK announced they wanted to widen the dosing interval to 12 weeks) to "oh actually we think it's because those same people in that arm got the second dose later" | 03:24 |
| pwr22 | woodhardigan: I dunno much about that but maybe LjL can advicse | 03:24 |
| himesama | is az same as j and j? | 03:26 |
| LjL | pwr22, woodhardigan[m]: actually i don't know a whole lot about the myocarditis issue either... my vague understanding is that in most cases it's a relatively benign and self-resolving condition, quite unlike the devastating syndrome you can get with AZ. with both vaccines, these cases are far from common, although if you're 20, it's kind of... eh... i don't know, i mean, some people will say at that age your risk of dying from COVID is so small that the risk of | 03:26 |
| LjL | having serious issues with the vaccine is higher. but guess what, you didn't die but you still got long COVID, which from what i gather, sucks. | 03:26 |
| pwr22 | LjL: say what you want about the efficacy but it pretty much eradicated the initial strains here 😀 | 03:26 |
| pwr22 | Though delta is a different matter ☹️ | 03:26 |
| LjL | himesama, no, it's not, but they work on a similar principle (adenovirus vector) while Pfizer and Moderna in turn are based on mRNA | 03:26 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Yeah, I've read about it. The reason I've not taken the shot yet, as well as most people I know, is the lack of confidence on the data provided. AZ still is the only vaccine that I know people from my age took, and did fine by the end. But not entirely sure yet. Any reliable sources you could share? Wanna learn more about it | 03:26 |
| himesama | pwr22: heat is extreme and my body is pretty fragile. i figure i would be more able to deal with vaccine. but at this point with installer quitting maybe i should just go ahead and do it. | 03:27 |
| himesama | a large percentage of those with my conditions which i will not name now have gotten permanenly worsened by these vaccines. | 03:27 |
| pwr22 | Can you get a standalone air con unit to use in one room maybe? | 03:27 |
| LjL | woodhardigan[m], unfortunately when i find interesting sources i sometimes either dive into them and then forget to note them down, or say "eh i'll look at that later", and then i don't. but for those which i remembered to note down, they're all at https://github.com/ljl-covid/links - it has sections on each vaccine | 03:28 |
| himesama | everydfoy still wants to get the vacines but they are not safe. it is just that hte virus lslss safe. | 03:28 |
| LjL | uh | 03:28 |
| himesama | we could get a portable ac which would require less installation. those are much worse but if it would improbe the installation mayb we should do it. | 03:28 |
| woodhardigan[m] | LjL: Appreciate it mate! Will have a look | 03:29 |
| LjL | himesama, well, i don't know what your condition is and if you want say it, that's fine, but... you're in the US, right? so most people get Pfizer or Moderna, heard anything from J&J recipient with your condition? | 03:29 |
| pwr22 | woodhardigan: I think in either the case of AZ or Pfizer the liklihood of the severe side effects is very small | 03:29 |
| LjL | woodhardigan[m], i think the information about myocarditis is scant in those link. i had more info about the AZ issues. | 03:29 |
| himesama | correction: everydfoy with one of my conditions still wants to get the vacines but they are not safe. it is just that hte virus lslss safe. i am not talking about hte vaccine for healthy people. they seem to be safe for healthy people. that is, the side effects are rare. | 03:29 |
| himesama | LjL: moderna or pfizer are preferred for one of my conditions. idk which. | 03:30 |
| LjL | himesama, something autoimmune? | 03:30 |
| himesama | it's just doctor opinion though. and a small poll. | 03:30 |
| pwr22 | I didn't know there were some conditions the vaccines are dangerous for | 03:30 |
| himesama | possibly, but unknown | 03:30 |
| himesama | there are under-studied conditions | 03:31 |
| pwr22 | I mean my dad has super dodgy lungs and he was fine with the vaccines | 03:31 |
| himesama | with wide-ranging immune and neuro and syustemic and metabolic issues | 03:31 |
| pwr22 | Yeah I can imagine it's hard to gather good data on the rarer conditions | 03:31 |
| himesama | it's more that govs don't want to | 03:32 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Anyone one know which would theoretically more appropriated for individuals with neuropathies post-COVID? | 03:32 |
| woodhardigan[m] | * Anyone one know which would theoretically be more appropriated for individuals with neuropathies post-COVID? | 03:32 |
| himesama | woodhardigan[m]: other than that some have reported improvement from vaccine idk. what was it moderna? | 03:32 |
| LjL | i doubt it | 03:32 |
| LjL | okay i take it back then | 03:32 |
| LjL | i mean i've heard of potentially vaccine-related improvements in long-term COVID issues, but i don't know if any specific vaccines were involved, or just vaccines in general | 03:33 |
| LjL | and i definitely not know about specifically neuropathies | 03:33 |
| himesama | not all improve from vaccine but it is a clue. also there was a recent paper re autoantibodies which suggest possible treatments. | 03:33 |
| LjL | woodhardigan[m], you said you have GI symptoms, there is a paper that suggests the virus may continue replicating in the GI tract | 03:33 |
| woodhardigan[m] | himesama: You talking about MCAS stuff? | 03:34 |
| himesama | can you elaborate on your question? | 03:34 |
| LjL | %links replicating virus gut | 03:34 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03207-w (Evolution of antibody immunity to SARS-CoV-2) finds that in a cohort of 87 patients 10% of which needed hospital care, 44% reported long-term symptoms after 6 months, and it also suggests that there may still be replicating virus in the intestine (gut) of about half of infected individuals at least 90 days after infection [... want %more?] | 03:34 |
| himesama | i was talking about long covid | 03:34 |
| himesama | long covid might have mcas attributes or might not or a subset might | 03:34 |
| himesama | can't build muscle is not reported in ME. is it common in long covid? | 03:35 |
| himesama | not commonly reported that is | 03:35 |
| woodhardigan[m] | himesama: I might be outdated, but the only treatment I've come across was for Mast Cell Activation Syndrome, which is basically symptoms of anaphylaxis | 03:36 |
| woodhardigan[m] | LjL: Would you have that paper? | 03:37 |
| himesama | there are various treatments for mcas. h1 and h2 blockers and possibly other stuff. | 03:37 |
| LjL | woodhardigan[m], yeah it's the one i invoked with the %links command | 03:37 |
| himesama | treatments for auto antibodies might include stuff for autoimmunity in general. you could look at for example myasthenia gravis and see what they do for that. different disease of course but it is autoimmune and has a known mechanism. | 03:38 |
| woodhardigan[m] | LjL: Great! Will be checking it then | 03:38 |
| himesama | i am talking about stuyff doctors might try in absence of science | 03:38 |
| LjL | woodhardigan[m], i don't know about inability to build muscle mass, i've just tried to google it quickly, but it quickly became obvious that i'd find a ton of stuff about long COVID being *related* to loss of muscle mass, due to nutrition and a ton of other things, but that's different from the impossibility of *building* muscle mass. yet, particularly if you have GI symptoms, i would consider malnutrition, as in malabsorption, as a possible cause maybe | 03:39 |
| himesama | it would be great if you got vaccine and it got rid of remaining virus | 03:39 |
| himesama | describe the symptoms when you work out | 03:40 |
| himesama | if you wish to | 03:40 |
| LjL | himesama, someone said the other day that there is some tentative evidence that while the vaccine helps people with long COVID, it only works for some months, so maybe it doesn't "get rid" of it but only keeps it at bay for a while. (or maybe there is no live virus left and the mechanism is wholly different, who knows) | 03:40 |
| woodhardigan[m] | himesama: And yeah, I also don't understand it. I was quit fit before having the virus. My only symptoms were a headache, nausea loss of smell and appetite. During the period of 10 days in which the symptoms lasted I lost 22 pounds. Coming back to it afterward, and no success in gaining weight or muscle mass. I don't have the same appetite as before, but always insist on eating the same quantity I was used to. This has being going on | 03:41 |
| woodhardigan[m] | for a year. Not sure if the neuropathic condition is related, still investigating | 03:41 |
| woodhardigan[m] | himesama: Will come back here and updating after getting the shot! | 03:42 |
| LjL | have you regained smell? | 03:43 |
| woodhardigan[m] | LjL: Yes, took a month for the smell and hearing (forgot to mention, I lost that too) to return | 03:44 |
| LjL | ouch | 03:44 |
| himesama | do you get symptoms AFTER working out? | 03:44 |
| himesama | even with a delay like a day or more? | 03:44 |
| LjL | hearing loss is new to me | 03:44 |
| LjL | was it complete? any tinnitus, vertigo? | 03:44 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Nausea sometimes | 03:44 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Not complete, just a massive reduction, like being under water | 03:45 |
| LjL | i mean this is all from someone who started out saying "the virus was a joke". imagine when it's not a joke. all the people who'd never join this channel should... join this channel :\ | 03:45 |
| woodhardigan[m] | No vertigo | 03:45 |
| himesama | are you trying to be a muscle builder or are you trying to get back to normal non-muscle-=builder status? | 03:46 |
| woodhardigan[m] | I have lots of spasms, really lots of it. Especially at night | 03:46 |
| LjL | like muscle spasms? | 03:46 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Yeah, muscle spasm | 03:46 |
| himesama | joining a long covid forum could help | 03:46 |
| LjL | %wik fasciculations | 03:46 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, from English Wikipedia: A fasciculation, or muscle twitch, is a spontaneous, involuntary muscle contraction and relaxation, involving fine muscle fibers. They are common, with as much as 70% of people experiencing them. They can be benign, or associated with more serious conditions. When no cause or pathology is identified, [... want %more?] → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasciculation | 03:46 |
| woodhardigan[m] | I go slow. So far restarted twice. I begin with aerobics for weeks and then focus on muscle building. But only with calisthenics and low weights. I don't have my previous capacity anymore, I dried up 80% | 03:47 |
| LjL | "n late July, America’s Indiana University School of Medicine and Survivor Corps released a non-peer reviewed survey of 1,567 long-haulers. They listed 50 ongoing symptoms as diverse as muscle twitching, hands and feet tingling, blurred vision, dry eyes, hair loss and dizziness." (random site) | 03:48 |
| woodhardigan[m] | I had spasms before COVID, but nothing out of the regular. After having it, I definitely noticed something was wrong | 03:48 |
| pwr22 | Spasms could be related to overworking muscles and / or electrolyte imbalance I think? | 03:49 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Also yeah, red-eyes. Still have that for a year! Also especially at night | 03:49 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Yeah, I reckon it could be consequence of my stomach being a mess | 03:49 |
| LjL | pwr22, good point about electrolyte imbalance also. with muscle spams and inability to build muscle mass, i think i'd ask my doctor for a battery of blood tests, including for anemia of various sorts, malabsorption, electrolytes... | 03:50 |
| woodhardigan[m] | So, I will give you details about both my crisis post-covid. I had two crisis so far | 03:50 |
| LjL | total serum protein? not sure if meeaningful | 03:50 |
| pwr22 | Also a bunch of auto-immune things could lead to these kinds of wide ranging symptoms I think? | 03:51 |
| woodhardigan[m] | LjL: Would you believe everything is perfect? Vitamins and blood tests are actually better then previous. I do a battery every year, for all vitaming, hemogram, etc... | 03:51 |
| LjL | woodhardigan[m], i can believe it | 03:51 |
| pwr22 | Ah | 03:51 |
| LjL | i can believe it after being exposed to probably more than enough information on how health is complicated and tons of things are un(der)diagnosed or just hard/impossible to diagnose | 03:52 |
| woodhardigan[m] | My first crisis: 1 month after covid. Arm began to go numb, I had chest palpitations and pain. One night began getting cold and numb. Hit the ground, and next thing I'm on my way to ER. Turns out my EKG and all tests for hear related stuff, like Troponin is fine. Only my blood pressure is a bit off. Get discharged as "anxiety crisis" | 03:54 |
| LjL | sure :( | 03:54 |
| LjL | presumably oxygen saturation was fine too, at least when they measured it, probably a 99%+ given how they labelled it an anxiety crisis | 03:55 |
| himesama | what is Survivor Corps | 03:55 |
| LjL | i... don't really know | 03:56 |
| LjL | %wik Survivor Corps | 03:56 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, from English Wikipedia: Survivor Corps, formerly known as the Landmine Survivors Network, was a global network of survivors helping survivors to recover from war, rebuild their communities, and break cycles of violence. The organization currently operated programs in Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Burundi, [... want %more?] → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivor_Corps | 03:56 |
| himesama | "anxiety crisis" -- you are being fobbed off with nonsense | 03:56 |
| pwr22 | himesama: depends, I don't think we have enough context to know if woodhardigan was having a panic attack or anything | 03:57 |
| himesama | well that sounds great except i am skeptical of cycles of violence unless you are talking aboug feuds and such | 03:57 |
| pwr22 | Though I wonder if you could have had a very short term cardiac even? | 03:58 |
| pwr22 | *event | 03:58 |
| himesama | pwr22: do panic attacks include all the symptoms he mentions? | 03:58 |
| pwr22 | I don't know anything about such things | 03:58 |
| pwr22 | himesama: they can | 03:58 |
| LjL | himesama, there are definitely "feuds and such" in some of the countries mentioned | 03:58 |
| himesama | ok then i withdraw | 03:58 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Now, almost a year after (got it on November last year), I started feeling unwell working out. One week after and I'm still very weak, my mouth gum is soar and constantly bleeding (not much bleeding tho). I notice pain on the left side of my abdomen, where the ileum is positioned. Right after, I'm having problems evacuating and peeing. Both my bladder and Colon got lazy. It went away after 1 week, I remained with pain in my back for | 03:58 |
| woodhardigan[m] | another week, and now the same pain moved to the stomach region, and having lots of reflux and nausea | 03:58 |
| pwr22 | I've personally had everything except the collapsing part from anxiety before | 03:58 |
| pwr22 | And I know people who can faint from it fairly easily | 03:59 |
| himesama | i am not saying the thing si bad as i do not know about it. i was just referring to the term cycle of violence which is sometimes used improperly. | 03:59 |
| pwr22 | Not saying it was anxiety mind you, I just don't think an absolute statement on the matter in the absence of context is a good thing 🤔 | 03:59 |
| himesama | sure | 04:00 |
| LjL | but let's also remember that a good trigger for a panic attack is, well okay having a background of anxiety to begin with (which having had COVID with long-lasting repercussions will give you), but then, having actual physical symptoms that feel worrisome | 04:00 |
| woodhardigan[m] | I have a history of very mild and occasional GI issues, like reflux. But no other condition. Have been on way more stressful situations before, that could have trigger something like that, and it still doesn't make any sense to me what is going on | 04:01 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Other than post-COVID: my body's being weird | 04:01 |
| pwr22 | That certainly doesn't sound like a good set of symptoms, did you get checked out after that second episode? | 04:01 |
| LjL | fwiw the way you described this it doesn't sound like a panic attack to me, and i've had panic attack. yes some of the symptoms overlap. | 04:02 |
| himesama | i was not aware that panic attacks included all of those symtpoms | 04:02 |
| pwr22 | himesama: there's quite a wide range of effects and people can get them differently | 04:03 |
| pwr22 | For some people they think / feel like they're dying / having a heart attack | 04:03 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Peter: Yeah. All tests clear as aways. Did all sorts of exams, and having an endoscopy this week still. The neurologist test my belly sensitivity and apparently it was reduced on that nerve specifically | 04:03 |
| LjL | himesama, i will say the same as pwr22 here, i've had panic attacks that have included all of those things (first crisis, not second) except the outright fainting | 04:03 |
| himesama | i believe it. i just was not waare of it. this is a statement of ignorance. not skepticism. | 04:04 |
| pwr22 | My flatmate had a panic attack and almost fainted from his needle fear when he had his moderna jab recently | 04:04 |
| LjL | arm began to go numb: check, both my arms began to go numb, and it progressively spread to the ears and face. chest palpitations, not sure, the blood pressure meter certainly registered some, but it's hard to be sure when shaking. blood pressure was spking though. pain, not per se except the numbing of the face was painful, like burning. i also couldn't move my hands anymore. | 04:05 |
| pwr22 | woodhardigan: have they investigated auto-immune things like lupus? I gather they can be sometimes hard to diagnose | 04:05 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Crazy, never had a Panic Attack. Being in the army for a while under all sorts of critical highly stressful situation and no signs of panic attacks so far | 04:05 |
| LjL | but just from the way woodhardigan[m] described that, even though the individual symptoms roughly match, it doesn't sound like a panic attack to me. i'm not a doctor and even a doctor couldn't diagnose it from a distance, but just my feeling. | 04:05 |
| pwr22 | woodhardigan: If you didn't feel anxious I would assume it wasn't ha ha | 04:05 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Peter: Not really. They keep insisting it's either psychological or a post-COVID disorder and there's nothing to be done... | 04:06 |
| LjL | that's kind of the worst thing to say to a patient ;( | 04:07 |
| pwr22 | Hmm, "post-covid" might have causes that can be discovered though | 04:07 |
| LjL | yeah | 04:07 |
| pwr22 | Like a clotting disorder could cause bleeding gums for example | 04:07 |
| LjL | say "we don't know what to do about post-COVID disorders right now. we will try to use your case to help the situation by reporting your symptoms and your incidents. hopefully we'll build enough information to act on it at some point, meanwhile hang on tight" | 04:08 |
| LjL | does that sound too farfetched as a thing to say instead of "there's nothing to be done"? | 04:08 |
| pwr22 | And leukemia (hopefully not!) could cause it and also splenic involvment | 04:08 |
| woodhardigan[m] | They are not asking for CT scans either. I keep going to the best doctors here, but they are not of much help still. I just keep waiting and taking some pills for the pain/stomach | 04:08 |
| himesama | if it is either demonic possession or an etiology largely attributable to the pandemic, plus individual variation, choose the second one | 04:09 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Peter: Platelets and blood should have pointed it right? | 04:09 |
| LjL | woodhardigan[m], i think you need to find someone who's specializing in post-COVID stuff. it might not be easy to find but if you find some group of patients, you may hit one | 04:09 |
| woodhardigan[m] | For Leukemia | 04:10 |
| himesama | the ontological category error is the same | 04:10 |
| woodhardigan[m] | The shit is that I'm in South America | 04:10 |
| himesama | find a science-oriented long covid forum | 04:10 |
| -spacecraft- Searching: a science-oriented long covid forum | 04:10 | |
| woodhardigan[m] | Services here are terrible compared to Europe | 04:10 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Reunion: +1450 cases (now 33295), +12 deaths (now 256) since 7 days ago | 04:11 |
| himesama | find a pen | 04:11 |
| LjL | spacecraft, O.o | 04:11 |
| LjL | find a thing and some other things | 04:11 |
| himesama | dafuq | 04:11 |
| himesama | there is a long covid alliance that will include some long covid organizations. those can point you to forums. | 04:12 |
| LjL | spacecraft, i'm not sure what's going on here but... no unauthorized bots please! | 04:12 |
| himesama | especially unauthorized bots that are spamming my server buffer | 04:12 |
| -spacecraft- Searching: a thing and some other things | 04:13 | |
| himesama | 19:10 -spacecraft- [!s-WBM] WayBack Machine Search: https://archive.org/search.php?query=a%20science%2Doriented%20long%20covid%20forum | 04:13 |
| himesama | every few seconds... | 04:13 |
| LjL | himesama, i only got that now all in a row | 04:14 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Btw, I don't have fatigue, strangely enough. On the very rare day I have, it's very mild too | 04:14 |
| woodhardigan[m] | * Btw, I don't have fatigue, strangely enough. On the very rare days I have, it's very mild too | 04:14 |
| himesama | do you have any symptoms after a delay (even a short one, but could be days or more) after doing anything? | 04:17 |
| LjL | i wonder if we'll ever get ryouma back, he's not on freenode either, last time he said he "didn't have enough energy" to set up a Libera account :( he was a bit too militant sometimes, and went on with monologues that weren't really about COVID, but... eh | 04:18 |
| pwr22 | On the matrix side I didn't get any search results from the spacecraft 😀 | 04:18 |
| pwr22 | woodhardigan: I would have thought those test results would at least indicate something needing further tests yeah | 04:19 |
| LjL | pwr22, most of them were sent as PMs (well, private NOTICEs). you should see a couple of them in the room, though | 04:19 |
| LjL | well, not the results, just the "Searching" parts | 04:20 |
| pwr22 | Though it took ages and loads of tests for them to decide that I "probably didn't have leukaemia right now" so I dunno how easy it is in the early stages to spot | 04:20 |
| pwr22 | I saw the spacecraft searching | 04:20 |
| LjL | which test results? | 04:20 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Peter: Yeah, all good with the blood. Tho from my previous exams, my platelets reduced by half after covid, and never returned to the usual count, it is still at the normal range tho, but more to the low | 04:21 |
| woodhardigan[m] | * Peter: Yeah, all good with the blood. From my previous exams, my platelets reduced by half after covid, and never returned to the usual count, it is still at the normal range tho, but more to the low | 04:21 |
| himesama | the word "militant" has been used against some advocacy populations to silence them. when used like that, it is generally intended to associate in the reader's mind something extreme or violent or unreasonable that the advocacy population has never done or would never do. for example, they might ask for scientific data, and then those who don't want to release the data compare to afghanistan. | 04:22 |
| LjL | himesama, i'm just saying he was a bit aggressive about it and it's not like we can do much to sway the opinion of governments, experts, or The Lancet here | 04:23 |
| LjL | but i'm also saying that all in all i'm sad he's vanished, so | 04:23 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Cyprus: +1081 cases (now 86185), +2 deaths (now 382) since a day ago — Martinique: +564 cases (now 13371) since 21 hours ago — Mauritania: +137 cases (now 21902), +1 deaths (now 496) since 23 hours ago | 05:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: COVID-19 cases surge in L.A. County, fueled by 'enormously selfish' unvaccinated → https://is.gd/IHvIKm | 05:17 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Australia extends lockdown in Sydney as Covid-19 spreads → https://is.gd/0OE6pd | 05:27 |
| himesama | it turns out that the first thing the handyman did, before quitting, was to tear the ac box apart. now it will be more difficult to return, transport, etc. possibly a 600 dollar paperweight. | 05:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: WHO warns individuals against mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines → https://is.gd/1LovLj | 05:37 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for British Virgin Islands: +139 cases (now 1286), +1 deaths (now 4) since 18 hours ago — Monaco: +16 cases (now 2640) since a day ago | 05:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Unable to send Covid vaccines as India needs time to review its legal provisions: US → https://is.gd/CkYFWw | 05:48 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Mexico: +11137 cases (now 2.6 million), +219 deaths (now 235277) since a day ago — Australia: +106 cases (now 31429) since a day ago — Netherlands: +5868 cases (now 1.8 million) since 22 hours ago — France: +41 deaths (now 111496) since 22 hours ago | 06:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from EurekAlert!: COVID precautions may result in more breast cancer deaths: A new paper in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute indicates that disruptions in health care due to the COVID 19 pandemic may increase breast cancer deaths. → https://is.gd/Vc0X1V | 06:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express (Health): Health: Covid-19: Here’s everything you need to know about ‘cytomegalovirus’ → https://is.gd/okZ6Hf | 06:40 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Belgium: +1303 cases (now 1.1 million), +2 deaths (now 25207) since 23 hours ago — San Marino: +2 cases (now 5094) since 8 days ago | 06:40 |
| himesama | even a spell checker would have corrected cvm to cmv in that article. why would a major paper neglect proofreading? | 06:47 |
| himesama | always wonder why those things get inverted by writers | 06:48 |
| Banban` | hi | 06:50 |
| himesama | i guess deadlines or something | 06:51 |
| Banban` | they need to change the word deadlilnes | 06:57 |
| Banban` | its not politically correct :P | 06:57 |
| Banban` | they should also ban the expression " she is blind to it" | 06:58 |
| Banban` | thats just wrong | 06:58 |
| Banban` | its like calling someone a cripple when they say , blind eye | 06:58 |
| Banban` | pathetic | 06:58 |
| Banban` | LjL hi , sleeping? | 07:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Cancer treatment developed by Victorian scientists stops coronavirus replicating in cells → https://is.gd/m6KXP3 | 07:21 |
| Banban` | a victorian scientist? | 07:22 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for England, United Kingdom: +32439 cases (now 4.5 million), +45 deaths (now 112982) since 23 hours ago — Catalonia, Spain: +28841 cases (now 725462), +1 deaths (now 14757) since 3 days ago — California, United States: +4929 cases (now 3.8 million), +20 deaths (now 63984) since 23 hours ago [... want %more?] | 07:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Singapore says cruise ship returns after suspected COVID-19 case → https://is.gd/uRipXu | 08:34 |
| mrdata | is UK having problems with delta variant because interval between 1st and 2nd jab were too short? | 08:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | July 14, 2021: Please refer to our Wiki for more information on COVID-19 and our sub. You can find answers to frequently asked questions in our FAQ , where there is valuable information such as our: → https://is.gd/VGdwg7 | 09:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: Coronavirus: France seeks to impose mandatory quarantine after positive COVID test → https://is.gd/Z0ICLW | 09:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Jakarta, Indonesia: Almost half of this capital city's population may have contracted Covid-19, survey finds → https://is.gd/u8MccG | 09:57 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for India: +25886 cases (now 30.9 million), +1581 deaths (now 411210) since 18 hours ago | 09:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: South Korea extends Covid curbs far and wide as new cases spike to record → https://is.gd/ESJqTC | 10:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): nCoV: Govt confirms 90,000 of 120,000 beds for COVID-19 patients occupied | 13JUL21 → https://is.gd/BEmNj7 | 10:18 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Montserrat: +1 cases (now 21) since a month ago | 10:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: First Opinion: Opinion: Vaxxed or axed: To protect patients, every health care worker must be vaccinated → https://is.gd/5BUezb | 10:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): China_Flu: Corona pandemic: there is enough vaccine for everyone → https://is.gd/xGu6MR | 11:20 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Finland: +383 cases (now 98888) since a day ago — Germany: +1027 cases (now 3.7 million) since 23 hours ago | 12:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Covid-19: Regulators warn that rare Guillain-Barre cases may link to J&J and AstraZeneca vaccines: The Johnson & Johnson (J&J) coronavirus vaccine may be linked to rare but serious cases of Guillain-Barré syndrome, an autoimmune disorder in which immune cells attack the nervous system, the US Food... → https://is.gd/O9cABb | 12:12 |
| pwr22 | woodhardigan: Maybe worth looking into this Guillain-Barre thing? | 12:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: Human medicine assessment reports: (news): Human medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): M-M-RVaxPro, measles, mumps and rubella vaccine (live), Rubella,Mumps,Immunization,Measles, Date of authorisation: 05/05/2006, Revision: 27, Status: Authorised → https://is.gd/wpcARH | 12:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from Scientific American: Is Your Office Safe from COVID? What to Know Now That Your Boss Wants You Back: Workers are anxious because the coronavirus is still infecting people. Here are ways to evaluate the safety of a shared work space -- Read more on ScientificAmerican.com → https://is.gd/W5J4oQ | 12:55 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: What's new: General: EMA’s governance during COVID-19 pandemic → https://is.gd/nXWOeq | 13:06 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Indonesia: +54517 cases (now 2.7 million), +991 deaths (now 69210) since 22 hours ago — Malaysia: +11618 cases (now 867567), +118 deaths (now 6503) since a day ago — Malta: +218 cases (now 31612) since 23 hours ago | 13:30 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Il Presidente Draghi incontra il Segretario della Lega Salvini ( https://www.governo.it/it/articolo/il-presidente-draghi-incontra-il-segretario-della-lega-salvini/17451 ) | 13:30 | |
| Brainstorm | New from ECDC: Data on the daily number of new reported COVID-19 cases and deaths by EU/EEA country: The downloadable data file is updated daily and contains the latest available public data on COVID-19. Each row/entry contains the number of new cases and deaths reported per day and per country in the EU/EEA. → https://is.gd/tBASDi | 13:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from ECDC: Data on COVID-19 vaccination in the EU/EEA: The downloadable data files contain information on COVID-19 vaccination in the EU/EEA. The data are presented in the Vaccine Tracker and collected through The European Surveillance System (TESSy). → https://is.gd/tmWhQm | 13:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from ECDC: ECDC: 14-day case notification rate per 100 000 inhabitants, updated 14 January 2021, weeks 0-1 → https://is.gd/X9YqHO | 13:57 |
| woodhardigan[m] | Peter That's close to what doctors believe I have. A non degenerative manifestation of demyelination. But not Guillain-Barre itself, since it's very severe | 14:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from Science-Based Medicine: When Will We Need a COVID Vaccine Booster?: COVID vaccine boosters are not needed yet, but scientists are following the data. The post first appeared on Science-Based Medicine . → https://is.gd/laRKo8 | 14:08 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Nepal: +2010 cases (now 660788), +18 deaths (now 9430) since a day ago — Switzerland: +1 deaths (now 10901) since 22 hours ago | 14:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from Francois Balloux: @BallouxFrancois: R to @BallouxFrancois: There's no empirical evidence for circulation of SARSCoV2 in part-vaccinated populations having led to Variants of Concern. All 4 VoCs (alpha-delta) emerged in mid-late 2020 before any place on earth had a significant % of its population [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/hKHK26 | 14:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: News and press releases: EMA and ECDC update on COVID-19, , 14/07/2021: Complete vaccination courses vital for maximum protectionVaccination remains one of the best protective measures against COVID-19. Recommendations for... → https://is.gd/5Ihe6g | 15:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from Francois Balloux: @BallouxFrancois: Review paper out on the genomic evolution of SARSCoV2 (origin / spread, variants, predictions for the future ...). The article is open access, reasonably short and hopefully accessible. I hope it will provide answers to questions some of you may have.https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1879625721000730 → https://is.gd/rn2BES | 15:12 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Gibraltar: +26 cases (now 4486) since a day ago | 15:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: What's new: Document: COVID-19 vaccine safety update for COVID-19 Vaccine Janssen: 14 July 2021 → https://is.gd/26p2c0 | 15:45 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Colloquio telefonico del Presidente Draghi con il Presidente Afghano Ghani ( https://www.governo.it/it/articolo/colloquio-telefonico-del-presidente-draghi-con-il-presidente-afghano-ghani/17458 ) | 15:45 | |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: Human medicine assessment reports: (news): Human medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): Spikevax (previously COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna), COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine (nucleoside modified), COVID-19 virus infection, Date of authorisation: 06/01/2021, Revision: 9, Status: Authorised → https://is.gd/OpE38w | 15:56 |
| genera | does not look openaccess | 15:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV: Insane antivax propaganda on Fox and Newsmax → https://is.gd/ADfbdd | 16:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from Shane Crotty: @profshanecrotty: Our new review article: HIV vaccinology 2021 is out now.Free link: https://authors.elsevier.com/a/1dPAU3jVyXynfE → https://is.gd/N0BV4l | 16:28 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Iraq: +9635 cases (now 1.5 million), +47 deaths (now 17677) since 23 hours ago — Azerbaijan: +212 cases (now 337668) since a day ago — Bangladesh: +4461 cases (now 1.1 million) since 23 hours ago | 16:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from Francois Balloux: @BallouxFrancois: Twitter may become an interesting place after the pandemic, once we've run out "covid spats", in addition to "meat jokes" → https://is.gd/EDzk2e | 16:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: U.S. overdose deaths hit record 93,000 in 2020 during pandemic: Overdose deaths soared to a record 93,000 last year in the midst of the Covid-19 pandemic, the U.S. government reported Wednesday. → https://is.gd/tG2IXa | 17:00 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for India: +28153 cases (now 30.9 million), +1577 deaths (now 411261) since 21 hours ago | 17:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Effects of Post-COVID-19 on Quadriceps Femoral Muscle-tendon Unit → https://is.gd/Ej1ima | 17:11 |
| LjL | anyone got AstraZeneca and after either dose (or both) had bouts of vertigo/dizziness, not immediately, but maybe after a week or so? | 17:30 |
| de-facto | i got my Moderna booster yesterday, no systemic side effects so far, temp 36.7°C, my arm hurts but thats all so far | 17:38 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for N. Mariana Is.: +2 cases (now 187) since 5 days ago | 17:39 |
| LjL | de-facto, same with me and Pfizer | 17:39 |
| LjL | but my mom is in complete shambles with this vertigo bout that has lasted 3-4 days now | 17:40 |
| LjL | and she had it some months ago, and we reconstructed things, and both times it was 7-8 days after her AZ dose | 17:40 |
| de-facto | i eat lots of raw vegetables, not sure if that has any effect, but it surely also does not hurt | 17:40 |
| LjL | she's on a diet for some other problems. but she does eat vegetables | 17:41 |
| LjL | i'm about to take her to an ENT, she basically can't do daily activities | 17:42 |
| de-facto | maybe veggies/salads etc may have some anti-inflammatory properties? not sure but i just feel like eating those | 17:42 |
| LjL | i googled and found people who had mRNA vaccines having bouts of vertigo a week later or so. not AZ so far though | 17:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Booster Dose of mRNA SARS-CoV-2 Vaccine for Kidney Transplant Recipients Without Adequate Humoral Response With or Without Immunosuppression Reduction → https://is.gd/5LVB5m | 17:43 |
| de-facto | just heard about an interesting theory in a podcast | 17:44 |
| de-facto | the immune system, once challenged with an antigen rises a variety of antibodies and refines those with highest affinity to the antigen over time, hence after one shot one probably got a highly specific antibody response | 17:45 |
| de-facto | but then if the immune system gets challenged with exactly the same antigen again, it must assume that its first response is not highly neutralizing (e.g. not preventing infection, although for vaccination its forced into the muscle by injection) | 17:46 |
| LjL | this is the closest i've found about delayed-onset vertigo after vaccines (but not AZ, the other ones), just someone's comment: | 17:46 |
| LjL | I saw my GP about this. Two weeks after my 2nd Pfizer, I woke up with a thrum thrum sound in one ear. The next day the sound was there and I had vertigo. That evening the vertigo made me very nauseous. Day after that both vertigo and nausea continued. Day after saw my GP, sound had gone away, most nausea gone, but vertigo remained. Was told he is seeing multiple patients with dizziness and vertigo weeks after Pfizer and Moderna, it lasts 3 days to 3 weeks then | 17:46 |
| LjL | goes away completely. All his patients (many of them since January) recovered fully. This is being reported to vaers and will likely show up as a known side effect in many people. It goes away. | 17:46 |
| de-facto | so for re-occurring infections it would be an evolutionary advantage to broaden the immune response, in order to guarantee some of the antibodies would neutralize the breakthrough infection (which is mimicked by the booster shots) | 17:47 |
| de-facto | hence the booster shots may actually not only increase antibody levels but also increase the variety of the antibodies, making them broader and covering more variants | 17:48 |
| de-facto | not sure if we have any data for that, but to me that would make sense from an evolutionary perspective | 17:49 |
| de-facto | LjL, does she drink enough (water)? | 17:50 |
| de-facto | maybe that the inner ear is inflammed or such and needs more oxygen? | 17:50 |
| de-facto | what about trying some aspirin or thinners? | 17:51 |
| LjL | she drinks, she doesn't take those things | 17:52 |
| LjL | we're about to go to an ENT although she's already canceled a cardiologist yesterday because she was too sick | 17:52 |
| de-facto | drinking water until she is "filled up" e.g. must go for comfort room? | 17:53 |
| de-facto | i think its very important to drink enough with vaccinations | 17:53 |
| de-facto | constantly | 17:53 |
| de-facto | maybe green tea? also has some blood thinning effects afaik | 17:55 |
| de-facto | hope she is going to be fine again soon, id assume its a temporary condition though | 18:03 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Italy: +2153 cases (now 4.3 million), +23 deaths (now 127831) since 23 hours ago | 18:03 |
| de-facto | but yeah seeing a MD about it probably is a good idea, just to have a professional opinion on it | 18:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Use of 1-MNA to Improve Exercise Tolerance and Fatigue in Patients After COVID-19 → https://is.gd/mfBzpC | 18:05 |
| de-facto | maybe also things like Ibuprofen may help if the cause is some sort of inflammation? | 18:16 |
| de-facto | not sure if that would influence the vaccination immunity though | 18:16 |
| de-facto | maybe MD knows more about such things? | 18:16 |
| LjL | de-facto: probably not drinking THAT much... I am guilty of that as well... She almost must be careful what she eats or drinks in general because of her other issues, but I'll tell her to drink more water | 18:17 |
| joerg | https://i.imgur.com/cjsw6kx.png >>...since a few days there's a _slight_ tendency to rise...<< | 18:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from Virological.org: Latest topics: nCoV-2019 Genomic Epidemiology: Emergence of a putative novel SARS-CoV-2 P.X lineage harboring N234P and E471Q spike protein mutations in Southern Brazil → https://is.gd/KuNeSD | 18:26 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Myanmar: +7083 cases (now 208357), +145 deaths (now 4181) since a day ago — United Kingdom: +20495 cases (now 5.2 million) since 15 hours ago | 18:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from In The Pipeline: Why Are Women and Men So Different in Autoimmune Disease?: That last post on vaccine reactions mentioned autotimmune disease several times, and that brings up a question that’s been outstanding for many decades now. If you look at the distribution of most autoimmune syndromes in the population, you find many obvious [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/QhHgwG | 18:47 |
| de-facto | joerg, not good, R ~ (1286/958)^(4/7) = 1.18 > 1 | 19:04 |
| de-facto | probably even more (with those that will be added from future for today) | 19:05 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Portugal: +4153 cases (now 916559), +9 deaths (now 17182) since a day ago | 19:06 |
| de-facto | hence we probably reached R~1.3 or such that would mean todays cases (with those added from future) would end up at around 1.5k | 19:07 |
| de-facto | we need more containment | 19:07 |
| de-facto | urgently | 19:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from Gazzetta Ufficiale italiana: MINISTERO DELLO SVILUPPO ECONOMICO - DECRETO 25 giugno 2021: Liquidazione coatta amministrativa della «Polar societa'cooperativa», in Milano e nomina del commissario liquidatore.(21A04168) → https://is.gd/Ck3Ziz | 19:08 |
| joerg | according to my statistics we've reached ~1.2 yesterday | 19:11 |
| joerg | with a very concerning constant aka linear increase of 0.02 to 0.04 per day, since weeks | 19:12 |
| joerg | though this increase of R_t actually might see a slow-down now, starting with 2021-07-10 | 19:15 |
| joerg | at least the plots suggest that | 19:15 |
| de-facto | yes it was obvious weeks ago, i plotted the number of sequences for delta and alpha and the sum on a logarithmic graph and it predicted the minimum at 2021-07-04 | 19:17 |
| de-facto | its doint its thing with mathematical precision, hence meaning we barely change influence at containment level | 19:17 |
| de-facto | yet we *must* reach R<1, at all costs | 19:18 |
| de-facto | (now the costs are still comparably low) | 19:18 |
| joerg | https://imgflip.com/i/5ggk9a http://reisenweber.net/et_al/covid/covid19_statistics.htm | 19:22 |
| de-facto | !title https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/DESH/Bericht_VOC_2021-07-14.pdf?__blob=publicationFile | 19:23 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/DESH/Bericht_VOC_2021-07-14.pdf?__blob=publicationFile | 19:23 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.rki.de: Bericht zu Virusvarianten von SARS-CoV-2 in Deutschland (RKI) | 19:23 |
| joerg | I guess we see Delta saturation | 19:23 |
| de-facto | week 26 its 74% B.1.617.2 in Germany | 19:23 |
| de-facto | yeah | 19:23 |
| de-facto | .title https://imgur.com/a/yCW271q https://i.imgur.com/xuhWbpn.png "COVID Germany: SARS-CoV-2-VoCs Evolution" src: https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/DESH/Bericht_VOC_2021-07-14.pdf?__blob=publicationFile | 19:28 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From imgur.com: COVID Germany: SARS-CoV-2-VoCs Evolution - Album on Imgur | 19:28 |
| joerg | music festival in Utrecht early this month a 1000 new cases despite everybody been tested/vaxed | 19:35 |
| LjL | de-facto: doctor said it seems like it could be dislodged otolith, did the maneuver, but it failed, and now she's feeling a lot dizzier than before, and the doctor said it if continues she needs to go to the ER where she'll probably be given a CAT scan to rule out worse things :( | 19:36 |
| de-facto | i dont even know what that means (in terms of anatomy) | 19:39 |
| de-facto | idk i would assume its some kind of temporary effect from vaccination, but how would i know (i am not an expert) | 19:40 |
| genera | 1000 out of 50 000 audience | 19:40 |
| joerg | LjL: already go for it, don't wait for >>it if continues<< | 19:40 |
| genera | otolith? | 19:41 |
| joerg | the lil stone in your ear that tells you where's "down" | 19:41 |
| genera | just a normal latin word ^^ | 19:41 |
| genera | actually there should be no stones | 19:41 |
| joerg | "stone" | 19:42 |
| genera | it shoud be magnetic so you also know the way | 19:42 |
| joerg | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otolith | 19:43 |
| joerg | genera: 1 out of 50? actually not bad¡ :-S | 19:47 |
| joerg | :-x | 19:47 |
| pwr22 | LjL: no vertigo I remember here | 19:48 |
| pwr22 | Nor is it anything the others in my family who got AZ mentioned | 19:49 |
| de-facto | moved my arm a lot, not it almost does not hurt anymore | 19:57 |
| de-facto | *now it almost does not hurt anymore | 19:57 |
| joerg | mine stopped hurting yesterday, 3 days after 2nd shot of AZ+BNT, onset been T+28h somesuch, with some mild flu symptoms that were easy to fix with 250mg Ibu | 19:59 |
| de-facto | LjL, https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1000534/AZ_DAP.pdf | 20:01 |
| de-facto | recovery definitely is faster than primer now | 20:03 |
| de-facto | LjL, see page 10 of that | 20:05 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: what does that mean? | 20:08 |
| pwr22 | What is recovery vs primer? | 20:08 |
| de-facto | pwr22, oh i was just talking about my arm recovering faster for booster injection than for primer injection | 20:09 |
| de-facto | sorry | 20:09 |
| de-facto | does not matter | 20:09 |
| de-facto | that Tinnitus and Vertigo seems to be reported quite often for both mRNA and Vector | 20:10 |
| de-facto | see also https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1000532/Pfizer_DAP.pdf | 20:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from ScienceMag: [Reports] Serum neurofilament light protein correlates with unfavorable clinical outcomes in hospitalized patients with COVID-19: Brain imaging studies of patients with COVID-19 show evidence of macro- and microhemorrhagic lesions, multifocal white matter hyperintensities, and lesions consistent with posterior reversible [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/cHU0Ul | 20:12 |
| joerg | .tr <de insgesamt sind die Zahlen aber weiterhin auf vergleichsweise niedrigem Niveau | 20:14 |
| Brainstorm | joerg, German to English: Overall, however, the numbers are still at a comparatively low level (MyMemory) — overall, however, the numbers are still at a comparatively low level (Google) | 20:14 |
| * joerg pukes hearing this void blabla in TV news | 20:15 | |
| de-facto | that is bullshit, what matters is *reproduction* as it demonstrates its out of control | 20:17 |
| de-facto | low numbers just mean we are at the start of a wave, hence still have the chance to break it | 20:17 |
| joerg | how about "overall, however, we are still in a very obvious beginning of another exponential growth that will exceed any tolerable bounds within only a few weeks" | 20:18 |
| de-facto | but the wave already started to progress, its just now we can kill it still quite easy (compared to later moment when it will be *much* more expensive) | 20:18 |
| de-facto | and when schools are opened again it will increase incidence even more | 20:18 |
| de-facto | how about R=1.3 means doubling each T2 = 4d Ln(2) / Ln(1.3) = 11 days | 20:19 |
| de-facto | that is not tolerable at all | 20:19 |
| de-facto | thats where we will end up being | 20:22 |
| joerg | <sarcasm>meh, who cares, we still got enough ICU beds</sarcasm> | 20:22 |
| de-facto | R~1.3 unless taking back restrictions will produce R > 1.3 | 20:22 |
| de-facto | yeah its exactly the same bullshit as last summer | 20:22 |
| joerg | EXACTLY same | 20:23 |
| de-facto | just that the wave already begins earlier now | 20:23 |
| de-facto | but the cause also is exactly the same: traveling | 20:23 |
| de-facto | its just repeating each year now, until people slowly begin to realize there is repetition included | 20:23 |
| joerg | but we're no longer looking at incidences from now on, since... we got so many that are already vaccinated. *headdesk* | 20:24 |
| de-facto | we need more restrictions, people are too stupid | 20:25 |
| de-facto | obviously, sadly, unfortunately | 20:26 |
| joerg | I'm actually wondering ifd it's just me who's too stupid to understand that logic | 20:26 |
| de-facto | they just wont put restrictions in place prior to elections, yet i wonder how well their management will be summarized when we have super high incidence at elections | 20:27 |
| joerg | maybe long covid is just a lie? or maybe... some people can earn much money with victims of long covid? | 20:27 |
| joerg | obviously most think they can't win elections with reasonable handling and telling the truth about covid now | 20:29 |
| de-facto | why do they open borders and allow traveling? | 20:30 |
| joerg | why do they open night clubs | 20:30 |
| de-facto | they actively are importing cases and permitting super spreads | 20:30 |
| de-facto | result: look at Netherlands | 20:30 |
| joerg | why do they cancel mandatory FFP2 masks in shops? | 20:30 |
| de-facto | why do they not require testing for travelers despite we know there are vaccine breakthrough cases | 20:31 |
| de-facto | *vaccinated travelers | 20:31 |
| joerg | we don't need imports anymore, that ship sailed weeks ago, we now simply watch Delta spread without anything done to at least slow that spreading down | 20:32 |
| joerg | admittedly malle holidays don't help either | 20:32 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Spain: +26390 cases (now 4.0 million) since a day ago | 20:33 |
| de-facto | why do they prioritize traveling (hence massively importing variants and cases) before the possibility to later open schools? Incidence will go up so far that its again the children that have to carry the burden because of some that want to travel, be entertained and go for party | 20:33 |
| de-facto | and we dont even have vaccines for them | 20:33 |
| joerg | but the malle mayor or somesuch gnome said >>there are only relatively few people dying from it now, so we must go ahead [and make money from german tourists]<< | 20:33 |
| de-facto | yeah everyone just thinks about the own advantages | 20:34 |
| de-facto | but i want "bla blubb" | 20:35 |
| joerg | "relatively few people dying" is as cynical as it gets, in my book | 20:35 |
| de-facto | its just an insult for humanity how people turn out to behave in this pandemic | 20:35 |
| joerg | and idiotic and ignorant on top | 20:35 |
| de-facto | also we are discussing third shots of vaccines while other countries dont even have enough to vaccinate their healthcare workers | 20:37 |
| de-facto | i deeply feel ashamed for that | 20:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from WebMD: Health Anxiety Common as COVID Restrictions Loosen: As restrictions lift and mask mandates become scarce, Americans are filling their social calendars and booking vacations. While some are rejoicing, health care professionals say others are emerging from the pandemic with more health-related fears. → https://is.gd/K8sWXA | 20:44 |
| indoanon[m] | > maybe long covid is just a lie? or maybe... some people can earn much money with victims of long covid? | 20:57 |
| indoanon[m] | Do people pretend that they got dementia, encephalopathy, heart problem, etc? | 20:57 |
| joerg | I knew a proper scientific / engineering education takes time and isn't trivial to accomplish, yet I can't explain why a felt 98% of those gnomes in positions to decide how to deal with this pandemic completely fail to understand the very basics and principle behind regulating such a system, like "read and *understand* that one tiny wikipedia page about PID regulators or simply listen to your own experts who tell you" | 20:57 |
| indoanon[m] | Ugh | 20:57 |
| indoanon[m] | \> maybe long covid is just a lie? or maybe... some people can earn much money with victims of long covid? | 20:57 |
| indoanon[m] | Do people pretend that they got dementia, encephalopathy, heart problem, etc? | 20:57 |
| joerg | for over a year now | 20:57 |
| indoanon[m] | <joerg "I knew a proper scientific / eng"> Can you talk in concise manner | 20:58 |
| joerg | I guess you should blame your client or whatever, your comments as seen here are completely garbled | 21:00 |
| de-facto | task: maximize the duration of R<1. | 21:00 |
| joerg | R<=1 is actually already enough | 21:01 |
| de-facto | joerg, its how the matrix bridge shows citations | 21:01 |
| de-facto | dont use citations if possible, they are pretty much broken, as is long text | 21:01 |
| joerg | how about we move to twitter? | 21:02 |
| joerg | I'm sorry my style of writing isn't matrix compatible | 21:03 |
| genera | its not your problem. its the matrix users. | 21:04 |
| de-facto | i mean dont use citations or long text in matrix | 21:04 |
| de-facto | yeah | 21:04 |
| indoanon[m] | <joerg "R<=1 is actually already enough"> I suggest you to write stuff without "bloat", joerg | 21:06 |
| joerg | it's a tad puzzling I get asked to "Can you talk in concise manner" as reply to sth that not even exceeded the maxchar for a single message, in a post fragmented and sent-twice reply | 21:07 |
| de-facto | btw if i remember correctly they stated that "long covid" (which seems to refer to quite a lot of diverse symptoms) seems to be as common as 10% of infections (including mild) | 21:07 |
| de-facto | that is a big load on healthcare system and also makes economy a lot less productive if people cant focus due to brain fog etc | 21:07 |
| de-facto | btw do we know anything about if long covid also occurs in vaccine breakthrough infections? i hope (and expect) not but i have not seen any data yet (i guess its too early to tell that) | 21:08 |
| IndoAnon | joerg: Feel free to criticize me. I was replying you from matrix. And you have matrix account, right? | 21:08 |
| joerg | no | 21:08 |
| indoanon[m] | I wonder who's @joerg:cloud.hoerenz.com: | 21:09 |
| LjL-Matrix | IndoAnon: why would he necessarily have a Matrix account? Also why would he be required to "write in a concise manner"? | 21:09 |
| LjL-Matrix | indoanon: I don't know if you're aware by Joerg is a reasonably common German first name | 21:10 |
| indoanon[m] | @LjL:matrix.org: I'm not aware of it. What I know are common are "hans" | 21:11 |
| joerg | [14 Jul 2021 21:11:22] [Whois] joerg is ~saturn@user/joerg (joerg reisenweber) | 21:11 |
| LjL-Matrix | Thanks de-facto, I had seen that before, but the thing is vertigo is a very common symptom so I'm not overly surprised to see it reported commonly. The thing is these reports don't go into details: are the vertigo the day after the vaccine, or do they start one week later? Both time they started one week later here, so that's the thing I'd be very interest in knowing if it's common | 21:13 |
| joerg | and I think a post that doesn't even get fragmented by irc's maxcharpermessage is concise enough for me to not change anything with it | 21:13 |
| de-facto | LjL-Matrix, i dont know anything more than what is written in there | 21:14 |
| de-facto | i think the data is from two weeks ago | 21:14 |
| joerg | LjL-Matrix: I always thought vax reactions were short onset with max 48h after vaccination, but obviously I'm wrong there | 21:16 |
| de-facto | if it was me, id try some ibuprofen to see if it dampens a potential inflammation, but i guess MDs know better | 21:18 |
| de-facto | and i cant give any advice, its just what i would try on myself in such a case | 21:18 |
| de-facto | if it helps, would that indicate some inflammation source? | 21:19 |
| de-facto | but also i have no idea how it would influence vaccination efficacy | 21:20 |
| joerg | if it persisted for several days already and started as late as a week after jab, I'd recommend against trying self medication, rather you did the right thing to see MD and you shouldn't hesitate to "escalate" immediately when that MD didn't know a proper diagnose | 21:20 |
| de-facto | id suspect some blood thinners and anti-inflammatory drugs and food may be of help, but yeah if she is really feeling restricted in her daily life a MD probably is the best address | 21:22 |
| joerg | I read after T+6h it's "safe" to use Ibu, Paracetamol etc | 21:22 |
| de-facto | they do quite different things though | 21:22 |
| de-facto | if possible id avoid them, just because they may influence vaccine efficacy | 21:23 |
| de-facto | but afaik in the AZ trials they tested Paracetamol against non-Paracetamol and did not see an effect in efficacy | 21:23 |
| de-facto | nothing about Ibuprofen though | 21:23 |
| joerg | they may, when taken preemptive or within 6h after jab | 21:23 |
| joerg | may influence vaccine efficacy | 21:24 |
| de-facto | i had headaches after primer mRNA weeks later, took 3x400mg Ibuprofen for 3-4 days and it went away | 21:26 |
| LjL | joerg: I don't know if it's a vaccine reaction, the ENT said she *thinks* it could be otoliths based on the maneuvers she did, but clearly she didn't manage to fix it. Still, two times, and each time a week after AZ... It's a bit of a coincidence | 21:26 |
| de-facto | LjL, did it went away last time? | 21:27 |
| IndoAnon | `It takes time for people to be educated in scientific / engineering (study). But, I felt there's no explanation why 98% of ~bureaucrats/policy maker behind pandemic countermeasures failed to grasp the basic principles behind known systems, such as "try to read and make some sense from a Wikipedia page" or "Listening to the Expert" ` | 21:27 |
| LjL | de-facto, yes, two days it was bad, the third day much better, and then it went away. but now we're already at the 4th day and it's worse | 21:27 |
| de-facto | is it getting worse or better now (compared to each day before)? | 21:28 |
| LjL | de-facto, worse, but it was worsened considerably by the maneuvers the doctor did. hopefully it will at least go back to how it was before. anyway, it was bad even before the doctor (not sure if worse than yesterday, probably similar) | 21:28 |
| de-facto | yeah well whatever that doc did, if it made it worse it was not good | 21:29 |
| joerg | IndoAnon: is there a particular reason you pseudo-quote me while weirdly changing the wording and meaning of that citation? | 21:29 |
| de-facto | but i meant the progression, without any influence, is it going to intensify or already on the path of going away (even from quite severe)? | 21:29 |
| LjL | de-facto, it'd say stable, the past two days | 21:30 |
| de-facto | :/ | 21:30 |
| de-facto | then need to change something if time does not help | 21:30 |
| indoanon[m] | <joerg "IndoAnon: is there a particular "> Well, your sucks | 21:30 |
| joerg | thanks! same to you | 21:31 |
| LjL | de-facto, i just hope this doesn't overlap too much with panic attacks she already has on her own. she's already been panicking. if we need to take her to the ER, fine, but let's do it at daytime, when doctors are actually around and can give her a CAT scan... not calling an ambulance at 3am, like it has already happened from her panic attacks :\ | 21:31 |
| LjL-Matrix | indoanon: I don't know what's up with you today, but personal attacks against other people like that are not okay | 21:32 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Malawi: +781 cases (now 40713), +12 deaths (now 1276) since 22 hours ago — Isle of Man: +52 cases (now 1791) since a day ago — Namibia: +730 cases (now 108785), +150 deaths (now 2240) since a day ago | 21:35 |
| LjL | let's all try to get along. some of us write shorter sentences, some longer, some in easier english, some in trickier english... it's all good, we already have a pandemic to stress us, no need to stress each other too | 21:40 |
| IndoAnon | Sorry | 21:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: COVID-19 Scan for Jul 14, 2021: Bacterial infections with COVID-19 Remote vs in-person high school → https://is.gd/qPvPEU | 21:47 |
| joerg | maybe I was _too_ concise ;-) | 21:48 |
| joerg | this pandemic is a system that needs regulation, like a lot of other systems: electric power grid, combustion engine, huge baking oven | 21:50 |
| joerg | there is a number of parameters you can change to control the process, and there are result parameters like number of infections per week, or heat in bread in oven you want to reach a certain target. | 21:51 |
| joerg | nothing new to engineers at all, but even politicians should be able to learn about the properties such a regulation must have to achive proper function or the regulating | 21:52 |
| joerg | wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller as well as your modelling experts will tell you the same, but in Germany we see politicians trying to manage the pandemic like their flat's heating | 21:54 |
| joerg | by oversimplistic rules like "R>100/7d100k night curfew will take effect" - what they need is a set of controller rules that look at R_t not at incidences, and do a PID regulation, not this bangbang-on/off management | 21:56 |
| joerg | the goal of the regulation to be R_t<1 or even R_t<=1 | 21:57 |
| joerg | right now we're at R_t=1.2, still everybody ignores that since "incidences are low" | 21:58 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Morocco: +2257 cases (now 547273), +9 deaths (now 9404) since 21 hours ago | 22:00 |
| IndoAnon | Your criticism is correct. The government and the experts aren't able to formulate measures based on textbook knowledge, or even past experience... | 22:00 |
| joerg | sorry, typo: "R>100/7d100k night curfew will take effect" should be "incidences >100/7d100k night curfew will take effect" - this is _not_ related to R which is the problem | 22:04 |
| IndoAnon | Let's say, they might attribute success of 'i' wave handling due to curfew. Then, try to make curfew as the default approach when handling i+1, i+2,... They probably won't consider less restrictive policy, such as "not letting people visit your house (indoor) and do sleepover" which could be less effective (a bit) and far less restrictive | 22:09 |
| joerg | they don't even evaluate efficiency of single measures at all here, and they don't understand they need to control "speed" and "acceleration" (R_t), not "position" (incidences) of the "car" | 22:12 |
| joerg | they use a bangbang proportional approach where they flip one or several switches depending on where incidences are, instead of doing right thing: looking at how incidences develop aka level of R_t which is exactly that | 22:14 |
| IndoAnon | I prefer long term measures instead of lockdowns. It's incredibly stupid that we have fallen in to the same pit for like the 3rd or 4th time | 22:15 |
| joerg | there's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller#Proportional with comment (in german wikipedia I think) about how a proportional controller never can reach and maintain the target. you need https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller#Integral to do that | 22:18 |
| IndoAnon | I want to share my experience. This time, current indonesian spike was caused by people who went homecoming. Then, it went undetected for like 7-14 days after they come back from their hometown/village. Most of the people already drop their guard and went lunch in a pack or similar group activities like smoking. | 22:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: Several states report spikes in COVID-19 cases: Stephanie Soucheray | News Reporter | CIDRAP News Jul 14, 2021 The increases come as poll data show 1 in 4 young adults say they are not likely to get the vaccine. → https://is.gd/n66DDp | 22:20 |
| joerg | IndoAnon: yeah, probably very similar pattern all across the world | 22:21 |
| IndoAnon | The government enacted lockdown when it's too late. It's already spread across working population. And they insists that strategic industry shouldn't be subject to further restrictions as it would be detrimental to product availability on grocery shelves and such... | 22:22 |
| joerg | >>you need https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller#Integral to do that<< and like de-facto already said, the target should be R_t<1, not any arbitrary incidences threshold | 22:23 |
| de-facto | LjL, I really hope she feels better soon | 22:24 |
| IndoAnon | yeah, joerg. It's just government, public&private corp failed to identify the problem: going for lunch/break /drinking water | 22:25 |
| de-facto | yeah does not even need to be R<<1 just as you said R<=1 | 22:25 |
| de-facto | well and R<1 to bring down high incidence | 22:25 |
| joerg | I was about to suggest "target: R_t=(incidences<50? 1.0 : 0.7)" | 22:30 |
| joerg | this is first of three rules to make a complete and _reasonable_ controller ruleset. rule#2: "if not taget_ok: increase NPI every 3 days"; rule#3: "if target_ok: release NPI every 10 days" | 22:34 |
| de-facto | well to make it more simple so that even politicians can understand it, i would just stay with one rule "R<1". | 22:36 |
| joerg | right now we have incidences<50 so target is R_t<=1, but we got R_t=1.2, so we would need stronger NPI every 3 days instead of less NPI as fast as possible | 22:36 |
| de-facto | yeah we do need more containment | 22:37 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for India: +37894 cases (now 30.9 million), +1074 deaths (now 411403) since 23 hours ago | 22:37 |
| LjL | de-facto, thanks, let's hope so. i had a look at the adverse reaction reporting site, but they ask you things like what the outcome was and how long it lasted, so i guess i better wait until it ends (hopefully soon and not in a bad way) | 22:38 |
| de-facto | my suspicion would be that it may recover by its own, maybe with the help of some Ibuprofen, Aspirin (with delay>2h to Ibuprofen to not have interference) and enough drinking water, or green tea | 22:40 |
| de-facto | but i cant really tell as i dont have any clue about such things or about the exact situation | 22:40 |
| de-facto | i just wish here a fast and full recovery | 22:41 |
| de-facto | i just wish *her a fast and full recovery | 22:41 |
| Arsanerit | joerg: that limit of 50 should probably depend on the translation function of incidence to hospitalisation? | 22:42 |
| Arsanerit | the more people are vaccinated, the higher the proportion of infected people with no or only mild symptoms? | 22:42 |
| joerg | our car stands at a long downhill road and currently we're lucky that it moves forward with only 7.1km/h (incidences /100k7d), so our great politicians fight who can release more brakes faster. They ignore our car already accelerates by a factor 1.2/s (R_t) and we damn better make sure it slows down further instead of letting it accelerate until we crash again | 22:42 |
| Arsanerit | I once had an empty battery, but the car was at the top of a downhill road and I could start the car after it had started rolling a bit. | 22:43 |
| Arsanerit | This was in Prairie du Chien, Wisconsin, United States of America. I do not recommend visiting the museum there. It's boring. | 22:43 |
| joerg | Arsanerit: I always wonder where from all those *reported* positive vaccinated cases are. Nobody with full vaccination will attend a test, why should they? | 22:44 |
| joerg | so the incidences we see are mostly non-vaccinated people, no? then why should it matter for the thresholds of controlling rules how many are vaccinated | 22:45 |
| Arsanerit | I don't know if it's true. | 22:46 |
| de-facto | i stay with one simple rule: R<1 at all costs | 22:47 |
| de-facto | its going to be the least expensive option for all resources | 22:48 |
| joerg | that's so obvious, yes. Still our politicians simply refuse to see it | 22:48 |
| de-facto | the freedom of regulation is if R<<1 (for bringing down a peak fast) or R<1 (to slowly kill it off in low incidence) | 22:49 |
| joerg | :nod: | 22:49 |
| joerg | this will stay the fundamental truth at least until *all* (and I mean *ALL*) people are immune one way or the other | 22:51 |
| de-facto | as long as incidence bruteforces immunity it will produce breakthrough infections, the question is if enough for R>1 | 22:52 |
| de-facto | right now R<1 would be sufficient with low incidence in Germany | 22:55 |
| joerg | sure, and we would only need it for maybe 3 more months, maybe 4 | 22:55 |
| de-facto | but soon we may need R<<1 if we allowed it to stay out of control with R~1.2-1.5 for some extended period of time | 22:55 |
| joerg | yes, exactly | 22:56 |
| de-facto | and exactly that will happen, unfortunately | 22:57 |
| IndoAnon | 😂 | 22:57 |
| de-facto | its what all countries have to go through, because it appears humans became unable to learn from observing how it goes for others | 22:59 |
| de-facto | at least 1-2 times a year | 23:00 |
| de-facto | because... well people assume its all different this time... because of ${reasons} (of course not) | 23:00 |
| joerg | netherlands had their "who released the brakes???" moment just a few days ago and they are lucky if they can slow down the car again, or try to do like england and say "chickeeeeeen! we'll ride it to the end, all the way down to end of the road" | 23:02 |
| LjL | not quite COVID-related, but it involves inflammation and cytokines: <CarlSagan_> [Scientific American] 'Inflammation Clock' Can Reveal Body's Biological Age http://rss.sciam.com/~r/basic-science/~3/y4mGd2lJXI4/ 2021-07-14T20:30:00 | 23:02 |
| * joerg wishes he had the skill to draw sketches | 23:03 | |
| de-facto | its peaking in the young first, then diffusing through the families to the elderly, bruteforcing immunity | 23:09 |
| joerg | soap box derby, road getting even steeper were the cars are and everybody braking like mad, only Boris shouting JERONIMOOOOO and even pushing to go faster | 23:35 |
| stipa | we would all do the same | 23:35 |
| joerg | join the lemming club? | 23:37 |
| stipa | the economy is collapsing and whole world got sting by lifting up restrictions | 23:37 |
| stipa | some are going in lockdown again | 23:38 |
| stipa | it's a wild west | 23:38 |
| stipa | governments don't know what to do anymore | 23:39 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Curacao: +35 cases (now 12453) since 22 hours ago | 23:39 |
| joerg | well, our economy here is far from collapsing | 23:39 |
| hatz_ | stipa: get yourself a beer, chill out, we'll get through this | 23:39 |
| joerg | our pubs are about to collapse | 23:40 |
| stipa | yeah, that collapsed a year ago | 23:41 |
| stipa | small busniesses | 23:41 |
| joerg | as well as our theaters and cinemas and likely everything else called "culture" | 23:41 |
| stipa | yeah | 23:41 |
| stipa | rich are feeling it too | 23:42 |
| stipa | after that goverments | 23:42 |
| stipa | they're next | 23:42 |
| joerg | our economy will collapse once they get to pay for a zillion long covid invalids | 23:42 |
| stipa | right, effects of vaccines are starting to manifest | 23:43 |
| stipa | some nerve problems if i got it right | 23:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from Bloom Lab: @tylernstarr: RT by @jbloom_lab: Check out the published version of our manuscript on SARS-CoV-2 antibodies that are robust to short- and long-term viral evolution! Thread below summarizes the original preprint. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03807-6 → https://is.gd/bqqtTN | 23:44 |
| alkeryn[m] | <joerg "our economy will collapse once t"> don't forget to count all the people that got harmed by the "vax" | 23:45 |
| alkeryn[m] | or just the result of lockdowns lmao | 23:46 |
| LjL | here's a tweet that will annoy de-facto https://twitter.com/AlexAlex2496/status/1415331741917749259 | 23:48 |
| LjL | (found as part of https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1415290794387382273 which might be food for thought, although his conclusion is "no idea") | 23:49 |
| de-facto | well yeah of course that is bs, vaccines do work (very well actually), just we also need NPIs in addition (because of breakthrough selections), incidence is brought down by NPIs then hold down with both immunity and NPIs, also vaccinations reduce IFR a lot | 23:51 |
| de-facto | btw we do need a new metric that measures how IFR progresses over time, like IFR(age, duration since vaccination, variant, vaccine signature) | 23:52 |
| de-facto | that would give us indication how well vaccine protection works and how it develops over time | 23:52 |
| de-facto | its quite simple: high incidence breeds evasive mutants, just because it increases the likelihood of more mutations occurring that get selected for being more fit, if that population got some pre-existing immunity (either by recovery or vaccinations) the selection also goes for evasion of immunity | 23:57 |
| de-facto | and since its a pandemic that almost goes for one and a half years its breeding evasion mutants in every place where high incidence occurs. | 23:58 |
| stipa | de-facto: it's global warming, biotech won't help you much there | 23:58 |
| alkeryn[m] | one thing that everyone has ignored so far, if you isolate everyone indiscriminately, the virus will have evolutive pressure to become more contagious, if you isolated only the people that are sick, it would have a selective pressure to become less symptomatic as the more symptomatic strains would be at a spreading disadvantage. | 23:59 |
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