| de-facto | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261300v1 | 00:10 |
|---|---|---|
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.medrxiv.org: The Vaccination Threshold for SARS-CoV-2 Depends on the Indoor Setting and Room Ventilation | medRxiv | 00:10 |
| himesama | presumably full fda approval allows military to be forced to take the shot | 00:11 |
| de-facto | i am against forcing people to take the shot | 00:12 |
| de-facto | i am for transparently informing people about the advantages instead and let them decide for themselves | 00:12 |
| himesama | is johnson and johnson a bad idea for those with concerns about possible issues with ingredients in the mrna vaccines?, or, atlernatively, is j and j a big enough boost in protection? (and will it play nice with future variant stuff or mix and match stuff.) | 00:12 |
| himesama | gulf war syndrome is said to be caused by various factors including shots given (e.g. against chemical warfare). but i presume the military has leeway to give vaccines. countries certainly require them for entry but idk when it's military. | 00:14 |
| LjL | nixonix, "agest" was just a typo there, for removal of doubt :P | 00:18 |
| himesama | maybe it is like "thou agest" | 00:22 |
| LjL | himesama, yes that's the meaning he posted from wiktionary | 00:28 |
| LjL | himesama, i don't know about the vaccines, the only one i can advise against (although i think it's probably a good vaccine in general) is Novavax because it uses a saponin as adjuvant | 00:29 |
| LjL | but i know nothing of (bio)chemistry | 00:30 |
| nixonix | why is saponin bad adjuvant? | 00:31 |
| nixonix | i dont know if it is more risky than some alternatives, but i would be careful with gsk's as03 (or something), that they used in pandemrix. its supposedly very strong and thus risky (said some finnish immunologist) | 00:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Lancet (Online): [Articles] Risk of acute myocardial infarction and ischaemic stroke following COVID-19 in Sweden: a self-controlled case series and matched cohort study: Our findings suggest that COVID-19 is a risk factor for acute myocardial infarction and ischaemic stroke. This indicates that acute myocardial infarction and ischaemic [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/DqWKF5 | 00:34 |
| nixonix | often they use two adjuvants, something to get the immune response adjusted right, then another one like alum for boosting it | 00:35 |
| himesama | what i probably really need is testing vaccine on skin, then test small amount injected, then if no problem in 48h, do the full amount | 00:36 |
| himesama | the mrna ones have chemicals with glycero in them. but idk if relevant. | 00:36 |
| nixonix | PEG (in mrna vaccines) shoulnt be a problem for most allergic persons, and those rare anaphylaxes can happen to persons with no previous allergies | 00:38 |
| de-facto | afaik neither mRNA nor viral vector need or use adjuvants | 00:38 |
| nixonix | ah, i thought you ment PEG, but there is some type of glycerol too in those (which is alcohol): dimyristoyl glycerol [DMG] | 00:45 |
| de-facto | why not go for Johnson and Johnson then? | 00:45 |
| nixonix | nah, it was PRG. just misread that as another component. full was "polyethylene glycol [PEG] 2000 dimyristoyl glycerol [DMG]" | 00:46 |
| nixonix | or "PEG2000 DMG (1,2-dimyristoyl-rac-glycerol,methoxy-polyethyleneglycol)" | 00:47 |
| nixonix | but its probably two components of that PEG2000 DMG, PEG and that glycerol... | 00:48 |
| himesama | huh, peg has glycerol in it? purified glycerin for unknown reasons seems ok ingested but idk about injected. (so it's not so taht glycrol or maybve even glycero- itself is a concern but that it could be part of a molecule that could cause problems.) | 00:53 |
| himesama | also idk about topically | 00:53 |
| himesama | de-facto: hence my q about j and j | 00:53 |
| himesama | seems to ahve fewer ingredients | 00:53 |
| de-facto | well yeah why not? you wont be able to reduce risk to 0.0% | 00:55 |
| LjL | <nixonix> why is saponin bad adjuvant? ← i didn't mean that, just that it may be an issue with himesama's allergies/immune issues | 00:55 |
| nixonix | yeah, i thought that might have been the case | 00:56 |
| himesama | i am totally willing to take the risks that a normal healty person takes. if i can get risk down to that level, i am pleased. | 00:57 |
| LjL | himesama, but your risk from COVID is higher than a normal person's | 00:58 |
| himesama | althoguh i won't be able to for everything. i might be able to for this one thing at elast. if i can get expert advice someplace (which idk fi i an(). | 00:58 |
| himesama | yes, but the risk from vaccines in this populoation is not small. some 40 percent are worse long term from th3e vaccines. | 00:58 |
| LjL | anywhere on the internet it would be a huge responsibility for anyone to say "go for this one, it's likely going to be safe" | 00:58 |
| himesama | but still everybody is taking them | 00:59 |
| LjL | why don't you consult an immunologist, allergologist or similar? | 00:59 |
| himesama | ha | 00:59 |
| himesama | long story, afk | 00:59 |
| himesama | no advcice oir comments will be taken as medical advice | 01:00 |
| LjL | himesama, if you know what things you have problems with, and want to know if any of the ingredients to the vaccines may "turn into" them (metabolize or whatever), i guess you could also try ##biology | 01:00 |
| LjL | i don't know if there is a ##chemistry, but ##biology has some rather technical people | 01:01 |
| de-facto | himesama, are you vegetarian or vegan? | 01:03 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for India: +14294 cases (now 31.5 million), +202 deaths (now 422662) since 16 hours ago | 01:09 |
| de-facto | himesama, i dont really know, but have you investigated if your condition could profit from a (vegetarian/vegan) mediterranean diet with anti-inflammatory (anti-allergic?) properties? | 01:13 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Bulgaria: +231 cases (now 424526), +3 deaths (now 18208) since 21 hours ago | 01:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Pregnant women urged to get jab as majority unvaccinated: Estimates suggest that hundreds of thousands of pregnant women in England have not yet had the vaccine. → https://is.gd/xeZ3Ox | 01:47 |
| himesama | de-facto: the condition is so rare it is not even on the internet or in uptodate (doctors' reference). it shows all clasisc symptoms and patterns of a class of diseases however, and none of the differentials given, so it is almost certainly in that cloass. i have tried, per uptodate standard diagnostic, 4+ times normal amounts of h1 blockers for a month, plus h2 blockers, with no effect. therefore, i think my ver | 01:50 |
| himesama | sion of it is non-histaminergic (despite my probably having mcas and very obvious allergies). someethingsomething t cell thing maybe, maybe (idk) and analogy would be kind of like poison ivy. idk if mediterrranean or anti-inflammatory diet would still help with it, as i am hazy on what inflammation is immunologically. i have noticed no diet correlations. i have certainly done mediterranean. vegetarian/vegan wou | 01:50 |
| himesama | ld be a risk or a timesuck to try as i seem to need lots of protein and might not do well with protein substitutes or repetititions of same food. | 01:50 |
| himesama | s/all classic/classic/ | 01:51 |
| himesama | (poison ivy reference is only that a tiny skin touch produces a large effect, larger in my case; the point of contact is not relevant in my case however while it is with poison ivy) | 01:53 |
| de-facto | so you eat lots of animal protein right now? | 01:53 |
| himesama | yeah, i have 1 meal per day (my carer hates cooking), each with 1 meat | 01:53 |
| de-facto | wow ok hmm, i have to admit i am not knowledgeable in that area, but i would try to completely skip all animal protein for a few months and monitor some inflammatory metric to observe if it has any impact | 01:55 |
| de-facto | maybe that would be worth a try, just to know if that has some impact | 01:56 |
| himesama | would be interesting to try if possible, emphass on practical ability to try | 01:56 |
| de-facto | there are lots of plant based protein sources | 01:57 |
| de-facto | even some body builders go for that afaik, so it definitely is possible, some claim more healthy | 01:57 |
| himesama | it is not clear wether this reaction is inflammatory per se rather than vascular. certainly vascular things can be triggered by inflammation, but idk whre the process breaks, after that or before it e.g. also idk what goes into the set of inflammatory reactions. | 01:58 |
| himesama | so meat is a big pro-inflammatory thing? | 01:58 |
| de-facto | i think so, but i am not sure since i am not an expert in this | 01:59 |
| de-facto | in your place i would try out different kinds of diets, just to see if it has any impact, probably not really possible to predict that | 02:01 |
| himesama | to my knowledge diet has never been found to affect the class of diseases | 02:02 |
| de-facto | it got a big impact on everything, not just diseases | 02:03 |
| de-facto | it basically is the source of everything your cells exist from, starting with the microbiome in the guts, then the molecules that emerge from that in the blood, etc | 02:04 |
| de-facto | my (uneducated) guess would be that complete absence of animal protein could potentially help with lowering all those cytokine and inflammatory reactions, but that is only an intuitive guess | 02:06 |
| de-facto | btw always do slow transitions, nothing too radical so your microbiome can follow without too drastic imbalance | 02:07 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Vietnam: +7594 cases (now 128413), +233 deaths (now 863) since 23 hours ago | 02:11 |
| himesama | an observed microbiome issue on one disease (the one where a lot of people worsen long term from vaccines but do the vaccines anyway as the disease is worse, although the worsening could very much be very life-threatening itself) is insufficient butyrate-producing species. of course whether this is relevant to either the increadient issue or the worsening issue is unknown and perhaps not related at all to eeither, | 02:27 |
| himesama | just asomething known about one of the diseases. | 02:27 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for France: +26595 cases (now 6.1 million), +34 deaths (now 111851) since 20 hours ago — China: +77 cases (now 98819) since 20 hours ago — Netherlands: +3158 cases (now 1.9 million), +4 deaths (now 17957) since 20 hours ago — Canada: +726 cases (now 1.4 million), +15 deaths (now 26575) since 20 hours ago | 02:36 |
| de-facto | idk about vaccine impact on mircobiome, i meant it the other way around: food->microbiome->molecules in blood->immune system->inflammation | 02:39 |
| himesama | that is how i undersztood your meaning | 02:40 |
| himesama | the implication seemd to be ther it coul be of use to make vasccines safer in some cases iin prinicple. | 02:41 |
| himesama | keep in mind i hasve more than 6000 todo entries, and can get on a typoical day 0 done due to various obstacles | 02:41 |
| himesama | (continuing from 2 up) and the things that stop me from taking vaccine are first, a vascular-related reaction of a specific type to specific ingredients, the range of which is unknown, second, reaction of a more likelihood-increasing sort (eg. mcas, maybe diet helps there), or worsening long term from a specific disease. (if i were healthy, i would not consider at all rare things that everybody talks about; i would | 02:46 |
| himesama | ust ake the vaccine, assuming transparency.) | 02:46 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Guadeloupe: +1190 cases (now 19503) since 2 days ago — Fr. Polynesia: +239 cases (now 19875), +1 deaths (now 148) since 23 hours ago | 03:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from Virology.ws: T cells will save us from COVID-19, part 3: In the two previous installments (one, two) of what has now become my praise of T cells, I explained that the SARS-CoV-2 protein sequences recognized by T cells do not change, likely explaining why vaccines prevent serious disease and death caused by any variant. Today I will explain [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/6IOZVp | 03:20 |
| himesama | guy on twiv said pulseox below 94 means they can do things before or to prevent going to hospital (idr which(. mentioned dexamethasone. i wonder if he would incluyde oxygen. this was interesting. but, in my case, my pulseox is usually belwo 94... | 03:28 |
| himesama | (was in context of what would you put in your kit,mask, tissues,ibuprofen,thermonenter) | 03:29 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Nigeria: +558 cases (now 172821), +2 deaths (now 2141) since a day ago | 03:38 |
| himesama | the isea was, dexamethasonw would prevent you going to the hospital with no need fgor xoygen' | 03:46 |
| LjL | I have a feeling there are a few early treatments that could help but there just isn't much of a focus on educating general practitioners on directing their patients on what to do | 03:58 |
| LjL | unfortunately here a number of GPs just kinda "disappeared" after COVID started, they don't even answer the phone, so nevermind telling people what to take and asking them to buy a pulse oximeter and what it reads | 03:58 |
| LjL | wow | 04:01 |
| de-facto | dexamethasone may also do harm, e.g. there are some preprints stating that that black fungus (eating away the faces and eyes of COVID cases in India) may have been related to overuse of immuo-suppressive drugs (trying to compensate for lack of oxygen) | 04:02 |
| LjL | what nefarious nonsense is this? https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=it&tl=en&u=https://www.punto-informatico.it/nessuno-puo-rubare-dati-dal-qr-code-del-green-pass/?utm_source%3Dnewsletter%26utm_medium%3Demail | 04:02 |
| LjL | it claims that only the Italian VerificaC19 app can read the green pass QR code | 04:02 |
| LjL | in direct contrast with a comment i made to one of their previous articles | 04:02 |
| LjL | in this article, they apparently don't *allow* comments | 04:02 |
| LjL | to quell doubts on privacy, they... lie | 04:03 |
| LjL | and strongly attack people who say otherwise | 04:03 |
| LjL | i can, of course, read the entire content of my green pass QR code with the Covid Check app that is in F-Droid | 04:03 |
| de-facto | i decoded my QR code myself, of course it contains personal info | 04:03 |
| LjL | de-facto, this article claims that the daily keys that the app downloads are the ones that let it decode the QR | 04:04 |
| LjL | which is untrue | 04:04 |
| de-facto | just because some random journalist is not competent enough to do that does not mean everyone else is just as incompetent too :P | 04:04 |
| LjL | and i think they *know* it is untrue | 04:04 |
| LjL | this is basically propaganda | 04:04 |
| de-facto | basically everyone could make a photo of it and then use whatever decoder is available | 04:05 |
| de-facto | one example would be the python one we played with here | 04:05 |
| LjL | de-facto, if this is just incompetence then how come 1) it's more strongly worded than any other article from them i've read about this topic and 2) it doesn't allow people to comment on it, unlike those? | 04:05 |
| de-facto | they think that their inability to read the BASE45 encoding means noone can read that .... LOL | 04:06 |
| de-facto | oh my... | 04:06 |
| de-facto | first comment would link them to the decoder, prove their whole article nonsense | 04:07 |
| de-facto | idk trash that source if they allow publication of such articles its a statement about themselves | 04:09 |
| de-facto | .title https://github.com/panzi/verify-ehc | 04:10 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From github.com: GitHub - panzi/verify-ehc: Simple Python script to decode and verify an European Health Certificate QR-code | 04:10 |
| de-facto | .title https://github.com/eu-digital-green-certificates | 04:13 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From github.com: eu-digital-green-certificates · GitHub | 04:13 |
| de-facto | i mean ok, its nothing super secret or anything like that, but still it contains name, date of birth etc | 04:15 |
| de-facto | example https://github.com/eu-digital-green-certificates/dgc-testdata/blob/main/IT/2DCode/raw/1.json | 04:15 |
| LjL | de-facto, it's a rather authoritative source for computer geeks in italy | 04:15 |
| LjL | since i couldn't comment i did it on Twitter | 04:16 |
| LjL | and linked to the F-Droid app that can easily show the personal data | 04:16 |
| de-facto | LjL, have you heard of a really annoying thing in Germany with the certs? | 04:16 |
| de-facto | in the begin of vaccination campaign there were no digi certs, hence they only gave stickers in the yellow WHO vaccination booklet | 04:17 |
| de-facto | then with the introduction of the certs they needed a way to convert those into digital certs, hence they payed pharmacies to do that for them: take the yellow vax booklet, the ID and register on a website, issue a cert and give QR code to vaccinated | 04:18 |
| de-facto | now pharmacies did issue around 25M of such certs | 04:18 |
| LjL | de-facto, with only one key :( | 04:19 |
| LjL | so if any pharmacy misbehaved, you'd have to revoke them all | 04:19 |
| de-facto | exactly :( | 04:19 |
| LjL | which is SO silly | 04:19 |
| LjL | here, we had QR codes from the start, printed by the vaccine centers... | 04:19 |
| LjL | they weren't the standard EU type since it didn't exist yet, but still | 04:19 |
| de-facto | the problem: its not IF one pharmacy misbehaved, certs were sold on black market already | 04:20 |
| de-facto | then Handelsblatt tried to register an "imaginary" pharmacy (with false info) and were just accepted by the pharmacy registration, as if they were a real pharmacy | 04:20 |
| de-facto | they could issue a cert just fine | 04:21 |
| LjL | that's ironic, i was just thinking about imaginary | 04:21 |
| de-facto | so then they published that in the news and well they took the portal offline | 04:21 |
| de-facto | but DAMN, 25M certs with one key and without a possibility to revoke single certs? | 04:21 |
| LjL | sigh | 04:22 |
| LjL | i guess Italy is inept with IT (despite *being* IT) but it's not quite alone | 04:22 |
| de-facto | i mean PKI is not a new thing or such, its a problem already solved decades ago | 04:22 |
| LjL | de-facto, anyway i think it was a bit silly to give people nothing a little more verifiable than the sticker on the WHO booklet, that's all easily falsifiable | 04:23 |
| de-facto | now now they are stuck with the choice: either invalidate the key for all 25M certs (they already paid the pharmacies for issuing those) or accept an unknown number of certs that are not associated with a real vaccination | 04:23 |
| de-facto | a BIT silly? i think its plain stupid but ok | 04:24 |
| de-facto | every vaccination was registered with insurance card, so WHY didnt they just pay the insurance company to send each of their vaccinated members a letter with the QR code? | 04:24 |
| LjL | well, there are two silly things, i think using just one key for all pharmacies is sillier | 04:24 |
| de-facto | yes | 04:25 |
| de-facto | worst case scenario realized, bravo. | 04:25 |
| LjL | de-facto, i assume an insurance card also acts as a EU health card? | 04:25 |
| de-facto | the insurance pays the doctors or vaccination centers for doing the vaccination, so they got that dataset anyhow, and they also have verified customers in their database | 04:26 |
| de-facto | but yeah, let the pharmacies do their nonsense | 04:26 |
| LjL | we were all sent either an SMS or an email with a code that we can put into Immuni to get our QR, or alternatively we can go to a pharmacy or our doctor, but we need to show the original vaccination certificate we were given on paper, which also contains a QR | 04:26 |
| LjL | (we can also go to a government website and get a PDF with the same code if we want it on paper) | 04:27 |
| de-facto | to be fair the pharmacies themselves did not do anything wrong, the ones that did the IT for all the pharmacies in the background (e.g. that website) did the mistake | 04:27 |
| LjL | can't fake certificates still be identified? or rather, pharmacies that issues them? i think even though the key is common, you still have a pharmacy identifier | 04:28 |
| de-facto | obviously they did not check for a valid pharmacy in the registering process, the journalists wrote any 7th classmate could have done it | 04:28 |
| de-facto | but how to revoke them without revoke list? | 04:28 |
| LjL | with revoke lists :) | 04:28 |
| LjL | i mean it would be a hack | 04:29 |
| LjL | but you could just modify the app (and all european apps, presumably) to get a "bad certificates" list from the server, and deny them | 04:29 |
| LjL | you don't revoke they key, but you know which certificates (or which pharmacy identifier) are unacceptable | 04:30 |
| de-facto | https://www.heise.de/news/Portal-gesperrt-Apotheken-koennen-keine-COVID-Impfzertifikate-mehr-ausstellen-6145794.html | 04:31 |
| de-facto | they wrote also more articles about it in German | 04:31 |
| de-facto | yeah really annoying | 04:31 |
| de-facto | glad i got my cert from the vaccination center itself, and afaik each of those got its own key for signing | 04:32 |
| de-facto | damn i would even change that key every day, but yeah | 04:32 |
| de-facto | anyhow its an ongoing scandal in Germany right now | 04:35 |
| LjL | it should/will become one EU-wide | 04:36 |
| de-facto | and imho a design flaw in the PKI arch | 04:36 |
| LjL | not sure we're going to be happy knowing that Germans can enter Italy with an invalid green pass | 04:36 |
| de-facto | it is valid... thats the problem | 04:36 |
| LjL | de-facto, well was there anything in the EU-wide design that prevented each pharmacy from having their own key? | 04:36 |
| LjL | you know what i mean. legally invalid, not technically invalid | 04:37 |
| de-facto | i dont think so, why should they not get their own key, just as vaccination centers etc? | 04:37 |
| LjL | false, counterfeit | 04:37 |
| de-facto | yeah :D | 04:37 |
| LjL | right, so it's not a design flaw in the PKI arch of the green pass itself, just of the way Germany implemented the pharmacy thing | 04:37 |
| de-facto | the design flaw is missing revocation imho | 04:38 |
| de-facto | maybe could be added, not sure, i did not look into details | 04:38 |
| de-facto | it was the lobby of pharmacies that did the mistake | 04:38 |
| de-facto | "Deutsche Apothekerverband" | 04:39 |
| de-facto | pharmacies got strong lobby here, and obviously that lobby got incompetent IT "experts" doing their thing | 04:40 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Mauritania: +401 cases (now 25063), +6 deaths (now 553) since a day ago — Germany: +216 cases (now 3.8 million), +155 deaths (now 92131) since 22 hours ago | 04:40 |
| LjL | de-facto, revocation of a *key* is probably present, i really don't know but i would take it for granted... but if they're all using the same key that's going to be useless | 04:42 |
| LjL | revocation of individual certificates may not have been considered useful because... those who made the system assumed it wouldn't be used foolishly ;P | 04:42 |
| de-facto | i am a angry about that, i know that pharmacies do their job very thoroughly, they even document each step, archive it etc, and then the portal they use is bogus because they screwed up in the backend with 25M certs from one key | 04:42 |
| de-facto | yes revoking a key is possible | 04:43 |
| de-facto | yeah a system always will be used foolishly, thats the very first design assumption with such a platform | 04:43 |
| de-facto | well it should be at least | 04:43 |
| de-facto | obviously it was not their first assumotion | 04:44 |
| de-facto | anyhow the sticker in the yellow vaccination booklet also is not secure | 04:47 |
| de-facto | hence my suggestion with the insurance companies | 04:47 |
| de-facto | but yeah whatever | 04:47 |
| de-facto | imho the whole idea is flawed | 04:48 |
| de-facto | vaccination passports assuming there are no breakthrough cases that could be imported by vaccinated | 04:48 |
| LjL | de-facto, here restaurant/etc owners have no idea how to verify a green pass. i just answered a confused comment from one of them | 04:48 |
| LjL | they don't understand that just using the verification app is not enough, because they need to make sure the person is who they claim to be, i.e. ask for ID | 04:48 |
| de-facto | we need: quarantine with tests for travelers, vaccinated or not | 04:48 |
| LjL | but then the ones that *know* they need to ask for ID complain that it's not "legal" for them to do so | 04:49 |
| LjL | i'm not a lawyer but i think that's bollocks | 04:49 |
| LjL | i don't have to show you my ID if you're a restaurant owner, but you also don't have to let me in, if i don't show a valid green pass and an ID that confirms it | 04:49 |
| de-facto | vaccinations lower the risk to end on ICU for an infection, but they do not prevent infection (but lower infection risk, yet not as much as severe progressions), hence vaccinated can be asymptomatic yet still transmit the pathogen and infect others | 04:50 |
| de-facto | thats why i think this whole concept is bogus, vaccination passports etc | 04:51 |
| LjL | de-facto, before Delta, there were encouraging signs that vaccinated people were largely not infectious | 04:51 |
| de-facto | people should get the shot, because of their *own* personal benefit | 04:51 |
| LjL | and the whole green pass concept was thought out and planned before Delta | 04:51 |
| de-facto | i said that the whole time | 04:51 |
| de-facto | its about individual benefit to risk ratio | 04:51 |
| de-facto | it was clear from begin that at some point we would see breakthrough cases | 04:52 |
| LjL | i don't agree that's true in general. a vaccine *can* stop or hinder transmission, many vaccines do it, and i am pretty convinced the mRNA COVID vaccines also did it, but not for the newer variants | 04:52 |
| LjL | some breakthrough cases, sure | 04:52 |
| LjL | but initially that would be very few, with an efficacy of 95% | 04:53 |
| LjL | now they're a lot, because the situation changed | 04:53 |
| de-facto | efficacy for symptomatic infection with B.1 | 04:53 |
| LjL | yes they did the mistake (except AZ) of not checking for asymptomatic cases | 04:53 |
| de-facto | those PCR tests in AZ already showed that infection prevention in the nose etc is much more difficult to achieve | 04:53 |
| LjL | but there are studies made before Delta that showed that household transmission was much lower with vaccinations | 04:54 |
| de-facto | yeah exactly | 04:54 |
| LjL | de-facto, but AZ sucks | 04:54 |
| LjL | AZ shouldn't have been used | 04:54 |
| de-facto | not really | 04:54 |
| LjL | oh come one | 04:54 |
| LjL | on* | 04:54 |
| LjL | AZ is the one major failure right now | 04:54 |
| LjL | bad side effects keep piling on and the efficacy was marginal even at first | 04:54 |
| LjL | now the efficacy is going to be abysmal | 04:54 |
| de-facto | i disagree, it probably prevented many fatalities in UK | 04:54 |
| de-facto | compare to Indonesia for example | 04:55 |
| LjL | yes, and even more fatalities would have been prevented if instead of producing AZ, more of Pfizer/Moderna had been produced | 04:55 |
| LjL | do you think the EU is going to buy any more AZ? i sure hope not | 04:55 |
| de-facto | both are different enough that they dont use same production facilities or even supply chains | 04:56 |
| de-facto | except for the vials maybe | 04:56 |
| de-facto | so producing in parallel increased rates | 04:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from https://covid19.specops.network : ljl-covid: Update current names of vaccines → https://is.gd/xCFU13 | 05:03 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Recent Commits to links:master: Update current names of vaccines ( https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/commit/2c21993ed732c9f39c1cbf288f16567fb1e5f3c3 ) | 05:05 | |
| LjL | de-facto, did you see that Alberta decided to stop asking infected people to quarantine, and also won't test people with mild symptoms anymore | 05:08 |
| LjL | " Additionally, Albertans with COVID-19 symptoms will not be asked to get tested, but to stay at home until they feel better. Two weeks later, COVID-19 tests will only be available to people who need to go to the hospital or see a physician." | 05:08 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Recent Commits to links:master: Add latest EMA safety update about AstraZeneca ( https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/commit/cd1f3f6ad40d5086983739505a5fc6de63f5a229 ) | 05:10 | |
| Brainstorm | New from https://covid19.specops.network : ljl-covid: Add latest EMA safety update about AstraZeneca → https://is.gd/clozcz | 05:13 |
| de-facto | did not see that, in the end its the people themselves that have to behave in a sane way, preventing infections etc | 05:17 |
| de-facto | yet at some points i think it makes sense to do mandatory testing, e.g. for all travelers | 05:17 |
| de-facto | just so that one knows where it spreads and with what variants, how long after which vaccinations etc | 05:18 |
| de-facto | all unknowns, hence why not monitor for them and act according to the results *measured* not results assumed | 05:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Behind the masks, a mystery: how often do the vaccinated spread the virus? → https://is.gd/cF2jBt | 05:24 |
| himesama | what is reasoning there. 20:08 <LjL> de-facto, did you see that Alberta decided to stop asking infected people to quarantine, and also won't test people with mild symptoms anymoreaaaa | 05:29 |
| LjL | i don't know | 05:32 |
| LjL | i guess either they think the vaccine has mostly solved the problem, or they think there is no solution and so we should live with the virus and just embrace the fact we'll all get infected | 05:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from https://covid19.specops.network : ljl-covid: Add BNT/Pfizer press release about third shot → https://is.gd/3MBOYB | 05:34 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Recent Commits to links:master: Add BNT/Pfizer press release about third shot ( https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/commit/ceb2481f08f3b180bfa816868148abbd73dc19bf ) | 05:35 | |
| Brainstorm | Updates for France: +32893 cases (now 6.1 million), +41 deaths (now 111858) since 23 hours ago — United Kingdom: +29456 cases (now 5.8 million), +96 deaths (now 129638) since 23 hours ago — Netherlands: +4262 cases (now 1.9 million), +5 deaths (now 17958) since 23 hours ago — Canada: +950 cases (now 1.4 million) since 23 hours ago | 05:36 |
| LjL | France and Spain are already that bad, damn | 05:36 |
| himesama | so if it is trut that lc rates are lower in vaccinated that is one thing butif you don't have 100 percent vacccine coverfage then you are creating a lot of lc with such policies. what balances that/ | 05:37 |
| himesama | (and it is not known i think what the true raes of lc are in vaccinated) | 05:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid in Sydney: Military deployed to help enforce lockdown → https://is.gd/YawjP7 | 05:55 |
| twomoon | does it seem really bad to you ljl ? | 06:00 |
| LjL | twomoon, i don't know, the deaths are spiking but not nearly as much as last time. but the number of cases is certainly well above italy. we passed 6000 today, but these are around 30000 | 06:01 |
| LjL | things change fast, i was kinda still under the impression the UK had a large spike (that is going down now), the Netherlands had that cray spike, Greece was also in trouble, and generally the bigger EU countries were also on the rise but more slowly | 06:02 |
| twomoon | i see | 06:04 |
| twomoon | i'm watching Dr Campbell like crazy these days | 06:04 |
| twomoon | i feel in the dark here in the US as it feels like covid testing is kinda dead | 06:05 |
| LjL | Campbell bores me a tad | 06:05 |
| himesama | npr seems to fail to tell me where the cdc site is. but i ssuspec i have been there an dcannot use ti becaue it does not work for firefox. balkanized web. | 06:05 |
| himesama | so it's clickbait that doesnot answer the question. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/07/28/1021795290/cdc-mask-guidelines-indoors-vaccinated-by-county-covid-spread | 06:07 |
| himesama | did i juist get tracked with the 10279... number? | 06:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Gilead’s COVID-19 drug helps boost 2nd-quarter results as HIV sales dip → https://is.gd/wik4Ci | 06:16 |
| gry | what is that? | 06:18 |
| gry | hi | 06:18 |
| himesama | hiv sales dip. i.e. retrovirions are not selling well. and as a result, glead has a better 2nd quarter result. alternatively gilead sells hiv-related paraphernalia. AND one dipped and the other did not. | 06:21 |
| gry | I don't know how HIV can be "for sale" | 06:22 |
| LjL | i don't understand what you're saying either | 06:24 |
| LjL | but i need to sleep at any rate | 06:24 |
| gry | Good night | 06:25 |
| LjL | night | 06:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Democrats forcing vaccinated Americans to wear mask over Indian study: Republican leader → https://is.gd/fIfdfE | 06:26 |
| himesama | i thought it was some cdc data or something/ | 06:36 |
| himesama | and idk if htere is any enforcement per se | 06:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express (Health): Health: What should be the ideal gap between two doses of Covid-19 vaccines? → https://is.gd/joWJ9B | 06:37 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Ecuador: +4953 cases (now 485673), +752 deaths (now 31549) since 5 days ago — Pakistan: +4537 cases (now 1.0 million), +86 deaths (now 23295) since 23 hours ago — Tanzania: +508 cases (now 1017) since a month ago | 06:38 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Texas, United States: +14716 cases (now 3.1 million), +37 deaths (now 53186) since a day ago — Tokyo, Japan: +3865 cases (now 210678), +3 deaths (now 2288) since a day ago — Arkansas, United States: +2843 cases (now 382569), +11 deaths (now 6110) since a day ago — Sindh, Pakistan: +2797 cases (now 377231), +44 deaths (now 5947) since a day ago | 07:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Biden’s new COVID push: vaccine rules, testing plans, hard cash → https://is.gd/oipXNW | 07:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: No, COVID-19 does not enter our DNA → https://is.gd/Db0TIf | 08:30 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Calendario colloquio selezione pubblica riservata a persone con disabilità per l’attivazione di tirocini formativi di 6 mesi, assunzione a tempo pieno ed indeterminato di 6 unità personale della PCM - “Addetto ai servizi interni”, B - F1 ( https://www.governo.it/it/articolo/procedura-di-selezione-pubblica-titoli-ed-esami-riservata-persone-con-disabilit-ai-sensi ) | 08:53 | |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | July 30, 2021: Please refer to our Wiki for more information on COVID-19 and our sub. You can find answers to frequently asked questions in our FAQ , where there is valuable information such as our: → https://is.gd/AiTSYm | 09:01 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Uzbekistan: +897 cases (now 128403), +7 deaths (now 866) since a day ago | 09:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from Science-Based Medicine: Cognitive Illusions and How Not to Write About COVID-19 and Children: A problematic statement In an interview on May 11th 2021, Dr. Monica Gandhi said, Children and young adults are very low risk for severe disease, about one in a million chance of death for a child under 19 from COVID as opposed to 600 deaths [per [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/no6IXl | 09:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: Coronavirus: UK Labour leader calls for early end to isolation for fully vaccinated → https://is.gd/X2PHDJ | 09:53 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Meghalaya, India: +731 cases (now 63745), +14 deaths (now 1062) since a day ago | 10:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from PubMed: Comparison of characteristics and ventilatory course between coronavirus disease 2019 and middle east respiratory syndrome patients with acute respiratory distress syndrome: CONCLUSION: Despite some distinctive differences between COVID-19 and MERS patients prior to intubation, the respiratory and ventilatory parameters postintubation [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/CygVft | 11:06 |
| bolovanos_ | and now choose en coronavirus disease 2019 and middle east respiratory syndrome patients vs https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.08.21260236v1 | 11:43 |
| de-facto[m] | .title | 11:59 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto[m]: From www.medrxiv.org: Aspirin Use is Associated with Decreased Mortality in Patients with COVID-19: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis | medRxiv | 11:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from Retraction Watch: ‘A very unfortunate event’: Paper on COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy retracted: A group of researchers in Canada and India have lost a paper on vaccine hesitancy and Covid-19 because they didn’t have the proper license to mine a database of news articles used in the study. The paper, “Tracking COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/GYiHrC | 12:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: Human medicine assessment reports: (news): Human medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): Trumenba, meningococcal group b vaccine (recombinant, adsorbed), Meningitis, Meningococcal, Date of authorisation: 24/05/2017, Revision: 10, Status: Authorised → https://is.gd/Z4x9GW | 12:19 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Guinea: +163 cases (now 25564), +3 deaths (now 214) since 17 hours ago — Germany: +358 cases (now 3.8 million) since 18 hours ago | 12:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from Scientific American: Why Do Variants Like Delta Become Dominant?: Los Angeles County is again requiring masks to be worn indoors, regardless of vaccination status, as the Delta variant rages. → https://is.gd/5Hw6gP | 12:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: N. Korea’s economy in crisis because of COVID-19, sanctions: South → https://is.gd/yjMppC | 13:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express (Health): Destination of the week: Visiting Vythiri: Here’s how to plan a trip to this 100 per cent vaccinated tourism destination → https://is.gd/K40j9O | 13:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express (Health): Health: Of moringa masala tea and ashwagandha hot chocolate: How Ayurveda has reinvented itself during the pandemic → https://is.gd/HCnpD8 | 13:32 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Nepal: +2467 cases (now 693109), +27 deaths (now 9834) since 23 hours ago | 13:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from ECDC: Data on country response measures to COVID-19: This downloadable data file contains information on non-pharmaceutical interventions (or response measures) that countries in the EU/EEA have reported to date. → https://is.gd/6BvFYG | 14:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: More detailed data released on Covid in hospitals: New NHS England data shows 23% of Covid patients were admitted for other reasons. → https://is.gd/ekfgJ6 | 14:45 |
| imaginary | LjL: :x | 14:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: News and press releases: Increased manufacturing capacity and supply for Spikevax, CHMP, 30/07/2021: EMA's human medicines committee (CHMP) has approved a scale-up of the active substance production process at Moderna's COVID-19 vaccine manufacturing... → https://is.gd/ltaMlj | 14:55 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: Human medicine assessment reports: (news): Human medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): Spikevax (previously COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna), COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine (nucleoside modified), COVID-19 virus infection, Date of authorisation: 06/01/2021, Revision: 10, Status: Authorised → https://is.gd/OpE38w | 15:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Pharma: STAT+: Pharmalittle: Remdesivir props up Gilead’s declining fortunes; U.K. fines drug maker for price hikes → https://is.gd/wFNnJU | 15:17 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Switzerland: +800 cases (now 717665) since a day ago — Germany: +492 cases (now 3.8 million) since 22 hours ago | 15:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Covid-19: Pfizer vaccine’s efficacy declined from 96% to 84% four months after second dose, company reports: The Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine’s efficacy against SARS-CoV-2 peaked at 96.2% at seven days to two months after the second dose and then declined to 83.7% at four months, a preprint from Pfizer has... → https://is.gd/OsSU6Y | 16:09 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Serbia: +353 cases (now 721620), +2 deaths (now 7112) since 23 hours ago — Bangladesh: +13862 cases (now 1.2 million), +212 deaths (now 20467) since 22 hours ago | 16:10 |
| pwr22 | LjL, de-facto: any idea why the cases have been going down in the UK? | 16:12 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: welcome back 🙂 | 16:12 |
| de-facto | thanks :) | 16:14 |
| de-facto | im not quite sure, my speculation would go towards partial herd immunity against variants in subgroups that are more or less isolated in the network of social graphs | 16:16 |
| de-facto | like it burning through such densely connected graphs, right now mostly in the young with similar interests, e.g. those that like to gather for party and celebrations? | 16:17 |
| de-facto | but that would be completely speculative | 16:17 |
| de-facto | pwr22, whats your take on it? | 16:18 |
| de-facto | i would not have expected that so soon, it going down again is good news | 16:21 |
| de-facto | hopefully hospitalizations follow with some delay and go down too | 16:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Atlantic: How Did It Come to This?: The CDC’s color-coded coronavirus case m ap, if you can find it, is easy enough to read. It’s a county-by-county snapshot of viral transmission—the agency’s new fallback for advising fully vaccinated people on whether they need to don a mask indoors. The parts painted in those scary shades of [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/3mvui9 | 16:31 |
| de-facto | .title https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/ | 16:35 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From coronavirus.data.gov.uk: Daily summary | Coronavirus in the UK | 16:35 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/antibodies | 16:35 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.ons.gov.uk: Coronavirus (COVID-19) latest insights - Office for National Statistics | 16:35 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for North Macedonia: +43 cases (now 156266) since 20 hours ago | 16:35 |
| de-facto | pwr22, do we have cases by age? | 16:35 |
| de-facto | over time | 16:36 |
| de-facto | https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19/latestinsights | 16:40 |
| de-facto | there it seems its mostly the young where seroprevalence still needed to be filled up tp 9 of 10 ? | 16:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: COVID Symptoms May Linger In Some Vaccinated People Who Get Infected, Study Finds → https://is.gd/8hx3NZ | 16:41 |
| de-facto | .title https://imgur.com/a/H2pHSlW https://i.imgur.com/sYkfijM.png src https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/Situationsberichte/Wochenbericht/Wochenbericht_2021-07-29.pdf?__blob=publicationFile | 16:48 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From imgur.com: COVID Germany: Weekly Incidence per 100k citizens by age over time - Album on Imgur | 16:48 |
| de-facto | seems its also in the young in Germany | 16:48 |
| de-facto | .title https://imgur.com/a/3ZJvXBN https://i.imgur.com/NSIDKVl.png src: https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/Situationsberichte/Wochenbericht/Wochenbericht_2021-07-29.pdf?__blob=publicationFile | 16:59 |
| de-facto | "COVID Germany: SARS-CoV-2-VoC incidence evolution" | 16:59 |
| de-facto | in Germany Delta got 91.4% contribution to incidence in week 28 of 2021 | 17:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: Australian Troops Will Help Enforce A Coronavirus Lockdown In Sydney: About 300 unarmed soldiers are joining local police in the city of 6 million to enforce coronavirus restrictions as authorities try to quell a new outbreak linked to the delta variant. → https://is.gd/RiTVkJ | 17:03 |
| de-facto | hmm Lambda (C.37) seems to be able to slowly increase in Germany, despite of the Delta dominance | 17:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV: Antivaxx dumbfuck shows pRoOf that the vaccine is sAtAnIc. Totally legit. → https://is.gd/MQBQnP | 17:24 |
| LjL | https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-long-will-vaccines-continue-to-protect-against-covid-19-30-july-2021 | 17:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: The Coronavirus Delta Variant That Has Spread To 15 Chinese Cities: China is battling to stem the spread of new cases tied to the more infectious variant. Nearly 200 people have been infected since last week, when a case was detected at an international airport. → https://is.gd/RKDQq3 | 17:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express (Health): Health: A home interventional model for successful Covid care → https://is.gd/CMMOxy | 17:45 |
| LjL | <CarlSagan_> [Ars Technica - Science] This 900-person delta cluster in Mass. has CDC freaked out—74% are vaccinated https://arstechnica.com/?p=1784187 2021-07-30T15:44:42 | 17:55 |
| LjL | maybe now they'll realize telling people they must wear masks again right after telling them they can take them off will be confusing and not encourage compliance | 17:56 |
| LjL | Walter A. Orenstein, associate director of the Emory Vaccine Center, said he was struck by data showing that vaccinated people who became infected with delta shed just as much virus as those who were not vaccinated. The slide references an outbreak in Barnstable County, Mass., where vaccinated and unvaccinated people shed nearly identical amounts of virus. | 17:58 |
| LjL | “I think this is very important in changing things,” Orenstein said. | 17:58 |
| LjL | de-facto, “In some sense, vaccination is now about personal protection — protecting oneself against severe disease. Herd immunity is not relevant as we are seeing plenty of evidence of repeat and breakthrough infections.” | 17:59 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for United Kingdom: +29213 cases (now 5.8 million) since 23 hours ago | 18:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from Ars Technica: Science: This 900-person delta cluster in Mass. has CDC freaked out—74% are vaccinated → https://is.gd/dsIt9i | 18:06 |
| LjL | pwr22, i've no specific idea, but i'm not surprised either, because i've seen it happen like that many times in many places... at some point the wave just stops and drops at about the same rate at which it climbed. in the current UK case, you could also have reached herd immunity since there was an estimate that 90% or so of Britons are immune now, but i personally doubt this is the explanation (i'm not sure Delta cares a lot about previous immunity, see above too) | 18:08 |
| LjL | https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1603190-20210729.htm i'm not sure this time China will manage to shut it down like it has done so far with previous outbreaks | 18:35 |
| specing | What's the vaccination rate in china? | 18:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: China grapples with sudden surge of Covid-19 cases in Beijing, 14 other cities → https://is.gd/cz9TQl | 18:48 |
| LjL | it was low but i think it has picked up some decent pace now | 18:51 |
| LjL | but their vaccines are somewhat dubious | 18:51 |
| specing | They are made in China :P | 18:51 |
| LjL | https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=asc&pickerMetric=location&Metric=Vaccine+doses&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=GBR~CHN~USA~European+Union | 18:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from New Scientist: Covid-19 news: Pregnant women in England urged to get vaccinated: The latest coronavirus news updated every day including coronavirus cases, the latest news, features and interviews from New Scientist and essential information about the covid-19 pandemic → https://is.gd/pskLXH | 18:58 |
| LjL | TV (prof. Brusaferro) just said that Delta is at 95% in Italy | 19:01 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Philippines: +8537 cases (now 1.6 million), +145 deaths (now 27722) since a day ago | 19:04 |
| Turbo_Tech | Good Afternoon | 19:20 |
| Turbo_Tech | If the new variant can spread as easily as chicken pox, does that mean it is more airborn? | 19:25 |
| -Bridgestorm- ⭕ Temblor! Sismo! Earthquake! 6.2 Mwp tremor, registered by EMSC,early, with 15 reports, 10 early, occurred 15 minutes ago (17:10:18 UTC), during daytime, Sullana, Peru (-4.93, -80.64) ± 4 km, ↓10 km likely felt 400 km away (in Piura, Querecotillo, Marcavelica, Paita…) by 652100 people (webservices.ingv.it) | 19:29 | |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Latitude festival-goers test positive for coronavirus: The 40,000 people a day Latitude festival is a Covid-19 restrictions test event for the government. → https://is.gd/jgSwwc | 19:30 |
| -Bridgestorm- ⭕ Sismo! Earthquake! 6.1 Mww tremor, registered by US, occurred 36 minutes ago (17:10:19 UTC), during daytime, Sullana, Piura, Peru (-4.92, -80.61), ↓33 km likely felt 290 km away (in Piura, Querecotillo, Marcavelica, Paita…) by 652100 people (service.iris.edu) | 19:47 | |
| Brainstorm | New from WebMD: Severe Opioid Overdoses Rose by Nearly a Third During Pandemic: Opioid overdose-related visits to U.S. emergency departments rose by nearly one-third during the COVID-19 pandemic last year. → https://is.gd/P7zbcp | 19:51 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Italy: +6613 cases (now 4.3 million), +18 deaths (now 128047) since a day ago | 20:06 |
| LjL | oh, missed question, too late now | 20:08 |
| LjL | but i didn't know the real answer anyway | 20:08 |
| joerg | I'd think it's as "airborne" as all other variants, but a thousandfold abundance of virus in infected noses | 20:10 |
| LjL | where does this assessment that it's as infectious as chickenpox come from anyway? someone else also told me about this today | 20:11 |
| joerg | https://www.statnews.com/2021/07/23/how-concerned-should-we-be-about-breakthrough-coronavirus-infections-one-expert-weighs-in/?utm_campaign=rss >>the CDC said that a close contact was somebody that you’re indoors with unmasked for 15 minutes or more. The equivalent of that with the Delta variant is not 15 minutes, it’s one second<< | 20:12 |
| joerg | who brought up chickenpox is rather irrelevant I guess | 20:13 |
| joerg | I don't know if such comparisons help the message anyway | 20:14 |
| LjL | well i wonder in case it comes from some new paper that estimates its infectiousness better than previous estimates (potentially) | 20:18 |
| LjL | usually when people start saying some new thing, it comes from some article that generated more articles, but before that and before being made into a comparison with chickenpox or something like that, it comes from a paper | 20:19 |
| joerg | that paper dates nack a week or more I'd guess | 20:23 |
| joerg | back* | 20:23 |
| joerg | note how the article above already is a derived one and it's dated 2021/07/23 | 20:24 |
| joerg | USA has _huge_ problems explaining the ignorant halve of their population why they should start wearing masks again, so they come up with new figurative analogies like "chickenpox" twice a day I guess | 20:26 |
| joerg | >>I think, unfortunately, with the rise of Delta, which is about a thousand times more infectious than the original strains of the virus, we really do need to think about layering protections<< | 20:32 |
| joerg | the info about what causes this "thousand times more infectious" is from german info channels I didn't link since most were in TV anyway, they claim it's most likely the massively increased number of "viable virus" in infected nasal mucous membranes | 20:35 |
| joerg | whan a delta ingected person uses an elevator (30s) and that elevator has no fan for fresh air, a sibgle breath taken in that elevator suffices to get the needed 800 virus it needs to trigger an infection. Even up to hours afzer the ingector left the elevator | 20:40 |
| joerg | damn typos, sorry | 20:40 |
| LjL | joerg, i got the chickepox thing from an italian, so i'm not sure it's about america | 20:41 |
| LjL | "1000x more infectious" comes from a study | 20:41 |
| joerg | I seen it in here first time | 20:41 |
| joerg | today | 20:41 |
| LjL | on viral load, though, not infectiousness | 20:41 |
| joerg | yes, I guess that factor 1000 is from a proper study and not exactly new | 20:42 |
| joerg | the rest is scientific basics | 20:43 |
| joerg | 15min =~ 1000s | 20:44 |
| joerg | obviously it's prone to one mahnitude of "error" maybe since not all the virus is "living", or other effects, but it's the first approach plausible line of explanation why Delta is changing the game | 20:48 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.07.21260122v2 | 20:51 |
| de-facto | "Viral infection and transmission in a large, well-traced outbreak caused by the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant" | 20:51 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.medrxiv.org: Viral infection and transmission in a large, well-traced outbreak caused by the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant | medRxiv | 20:51 |
| de-facto | "Daily sequential PCR testing of the quarantined subjects indicated that the viral loads of Delta infections, when they first become PCR+, were on average ∼1000 times greater compared to A/B lineage infections during initial epidemic wave in China in early 2020, suggesting potentially faster viral replication and greater infectiousness of Delta during early infection." | 20:54 |
| joerg | sounds genuine and correct | 20:56 |
| joerg | plus >>during early infection<< emphasizing another relevant detail, it's maybe faster | 20:57 |
| LjL | de-facto, thanks i was looking in the logs for "1000" but wasn't finding the study | 20:57 |
| de-facto | its already the second version if it | 20:58 |
| de-facto | .title https://virological.org/t/viral-infection-and-transmission-in-a-large-well-traced-outbreak-caused-by-the-delta-sars-cov-2-variant/724 | 20:59 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From virological.org: Viral infection and transmission in a large well-traced outbreak caused by the Delta SARS-CoV-2 variant - nCoV-2019 Genomic Epidemiology - Virological | 20:59 |
| de-facto | "Our results revealed that the time interval from exposure to the first PCR+ test in the quarantined population was 6.00 days (IQR 5.00-8.00) during the 2020 epidemic (n=29; peak at 5.61 days) and 4.00 days (IQR 3.00-5.00) in the 2021 Delta epidemic (n=34; peak at 3.71 days" | 21:01 |
| de-facto | "Our investigation of quarantined subjects suggests that, for the Delta variant, the time window from exposure to the detection of virus was ∼3.7 days, and infections presented a higher transmission risk when the virus was first detected compared to earlier circulating viral lineages. Consequently, the provincial government required people leaving Guangzhou city from airports, train stations and shuttle bus stations to show proof of a negativ | 21:02 |
| de-facto | e COVID-19 test within 72 hours on June 6 and this was shortened to 48 hours on June 7. In contrast, the comparable time window implemented in the 2020 epidemic was seven days." | 21:02 |
| LjL | "The estimated transmission bottleneck size was 1-3 virions with most minor intra-host single nucleotide variants (iSNVs) failing to transmit to the recipients." ← does this mean 10 virions to infect was an underestimate? yay? | 21:03 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Eswatini: +667 cases (now 25515) since 23 hours ago | 21:08 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Recent Commits to links:master: Add "1000x viral load" study ( https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/commit/4934c158fa828f9db10bbb7c8e3e78cec521174f ) | 21:10 | |
| Arsanerit | Is UK reaching herd immunity? I read about 92% having antibodies. | 21:12 |
| de-facto | but have those that test positive for antibodies got enough of them to prevent infection with delta? | 21:13 |
| de-facto | it probably should be a distribution waning off with time | 21:13 |
| Arsanerit | I don't know, but cases seem to be dropping in UK & NL, why? | 21:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from https://covid19.specops.network : ljl-covid: Add "1000x viral load" study → https://is.gd/KGPBKI | 21:14 |
| de-facto | maybe it burned through some densely connected social graphs? maybe people spend more time outdoors now and protect themselves better when being aware of the peak? | 21:15 |
| cipres | Arsanerit: case numbers are bulls*** | 21:15 |
| Arsanerit | cipres: how so? | 21:15 |
| de-facto | i dont know either, but i think waning off immunity will somehow determine the periodicity of waves together with variants fitness | 21:16 |
| cipres | Arsanerit: fraudulent PCR method | 21:16 |
| cipres | don't tell me you don't know already that the PCR is a fraud ... | 21:16 |
| Arsanerit | why not? | 21:17 |
| cipres | The PCR test cannot detect infections. Even the CDC mafia had to admit it recently .. | 21:18 |
| Arsanerit | I was asking, why should I not tell you that? | 21:19 |
| joerg | >>cases seem to be dropping in UK & NL, why<< scientists are still scratching their heads. Maybe some silly monster sports events that ended and a corona warn app that sends every third Brit to quarantine and school holidays are related somehow? Also I guess nit only Germany but also UK knows that effect of "anticipated precautionary behavior adaption" by ordinary people | 21:20 |
| Arsanerit | maybe | 21:21 |
| joerg | cipres: I don't think you'll stand a chance with that position in here | 21:21 |
| joerg | PCR cannot detect infections per defintion, what it detects is the virus | 21:23 |
| cipres | joerg: was just reading the channel logs .. fascinating :) | 21:23 |
| Turbo_Tech | Ok I am back | 21:23 |
| joerg | where your rant fails is that most people in here will agree on the assumption that detecting the virus means your bod<y produced that virus which is, by some definitiosn of it, already an infection | 21:25 |
| joerg | and PCR is damn good to detect the SARS-COV2 virus | 21:25 |
| joerg | good, sensitive and selective, and reliable | 21:26 |
| LjL | cipres, maybe if you've been reading channel logs you have realized by this point that this channel shuns namecalling like "the CDC mafia" and rhetoric like "didn't you already know <bold dubious claim>?" | 21:27 |
| joerg | ^^^! | 21:28 |
| Turbo_Tech | I perform PCR Testing | 21:29 |
| joerg | Lab Tech? | 21:30 |
| Turbo_Tech | It does a fine job and with the Variant which carries a much higher viral load it will be even better. | 21:30 |
| Turbo_Tech | Yes | 21:30 |
| joerg | ooh the nick already gives it away :-) | 21:30 |
| Turbo_Tech | LOL | 21:30 |
| Turbo_Tech | That nick came from my old days working in the ER | 21:31 |
| Turbo_Tech | I just found this place. I am in a discord room that is absolutely crazy. | 21:31 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Spain: +24753 cases (now 4.4 million), +44 deaths (now 81486) since 22 hours ago — France: +33993 cases (now 6.1 million), +50 deaths (now 111877) since 23 hours ago | 21:32 |
| Turbo_Tech | They refuse to recognize me as a medical professional | 21:32 |
| LjL | Turbo_Tech, hi, i saw your initial question after you left, i don't have an answer but i kinda wanted to point out that "more airborn" is not well defined. if it's already airborn (and it is), then more virions will mean more viral load in the air too, so "more airborn" in that sense... but it probably doesn't have any *characteristic* that makes each particle more airborne | 21:33 |
| joerg | welcome here :-) | 21:33 |
| Turbo_Tech | I know, I was just throwing it out there for conversation. | 21:33 |
| cipres | LjL: hi, good evening. I don't see a channel rules description, are there any specific rules here ? | 21:33 |
| LjL | cipres, there is a guideline document https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/blob/master/COVID-19-chat.md | 21:33 |
| cipres | LjL: thanks ! | 21:34 |
| Turbo_Tech | I have not used IRC in years. | 21:34 |
| joerg | it improved a bit | 21:34 |
| Turbo_Tech | I am using pidgin as a go between | 21:35 |
| joerg | actually I think libera is the best freenode we ever had :-D | 21:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: The Study Behind CDC's Mask Guidance Found Vaccinated People Can Spread Delta Variant: In an outbreak in Provincetown, Mass., three-quarters of cases occurred in fully vaccinated people. The study's findings suggest that vaccinated people infected with Delta can transmit the virus. → https://is.gd/xVsdl1 | 21:36 |
| Turbo_Tech | So a few weeks ago we will call it patient A presented to the ER with what they thought was potential food poisoning because they could not taste their food at a local restaurant chain. | 21:37 |
| Turbo_Tech | they also felt lousy. | 21:38 |
| Turbo_Tech | Patient was found to have had Covid. | 21:38 |
| Turbo_Tech | or Sars CoV-2 infection | 21:38 |
| LjL | there are still people around who don't know COVID can cause loss of smell/taste? | 21:38 |
| joerg | you might have a look at https://web.libera.chat/##covid-19 for very tero-config alternative to pidgin (I don't like pidgin). Maybe hexchat is worth a look too | 21:39 |
| * joerg thought >>COVID can cause loss of smell/taste<< was a >90% sure idication | 21:41 | |
| Guest9 | This is a TurboTech Test. LOL | 21:41 |
| joerg | indication* | 21:41 |
| joerg | hi Guest9 :-) | 21:41 |
| Guest9 | LOL its me | 21:41 |
| Turbo_Tech | That Guest 9 guy looks awful shady | 21:41 |
| joerg | KiwiIRC isn't all bad | 21:41 |
| Turbo_Tech | I like pidgeon | 21:42 |
| Turbo_Tech | It is a program rather than web based. | 21:42 |
| joerg | like Konversation and hexchat and weechat and irssi and... | 21:44 |
| LjL | i am partial towards Konversation but i don't use it because i don't use KDE anymore and i don't like to mismatch programs and DEs | 21:44 |
| * joerg uses Konversation | 21:44 | |
| Turbo_Tech | Is that a linux program? | 21:44 |
| joerg | yes | 21:44 |
| joerg | KDE | 21:44 |
| LjL | well, it can be used on Windows, but you need to install KDE for Windows | 21:44 |
| joerg | which is the desktop environment | 21:44 |
| LjL | (not sure about Macs) | 21:44 |
| Turbo_Tech | Ok so where ar eyou guys at with alternative potential treatments? | 21:44 |
| de-facto | i use Hexchat, also available for LNX and WIN | 21:44 |
| cipres | joerg: coming back to the PCR .. the PCR test was never designed as a diagnostic tool for disease or viruses, it can't differentiate between live and dead matter. | 21:45 |
| cipres | https://www.naturalnews.com/2021-07-25-cdc-withdraws-fraudulent-pcr-testing-protocol-used-to-falsify-covid-positives.html | 21:45 |
| Turbo_Tech | I think they are going by cycle count. | 21:45 |
| LjL | Turbo_Tech, i keep hearing that early treatment with aspirin is useful, and despite that it's probably not routine, and yesterday someone mentioned dexamethasone could be useful once saturation goes below 94% or so, and whether that's true or not, it makes me wonder why we're not all told to have cheap pulse oximeters around just like we tend to have thermometers | 21:45 |
| joerg | errr, you know a virus doesn't live at all? besides all of your claims are plain incorrect | 21:45 |
| joerg | cipres: ^^^ | 21:46 |
| LjL | well, "live virus" is common as a term | 21:46 |
| LjL | even if it's not considered technically alive | 21:46 |
| joerg | yes, but a virus has no metabolism so it's not alive | 21:46 |
| Turbo_Tech | Would you guys care to know where I stand | 21:46 |
| cipres | joerg: did you notice that i said live and dead "matter" and not virus ? | 21:46 |
| LjL | Turbo_Tech, sure, although when you said on discord they won't recognize you as a medical professional, the reality is that we can't really know whether you are one, so your opinions are only going to have the force of the argumentations behind them, in general | 21:47 |
| cipres | joerg: do your research on the inventor ... Drosten. | 21:48 |
| joerg | Damn, I feel like I know Drosten since decades | 21:49 |
| Arsanerit | Have you? | 21:49 |
| joerg | your claims are flase | 21:49 |
| cipres | lol | 21:49 |
| Turbo_Tech | Understood. Here is my old license from Florida. https://mqa-internet.doh.state.fl.us/MQASearchServices/HealthcareProviders/LicenseVerification?LicInd=35907&Procde=6601&org=%20 | 21:49 |
| Arsanerit | I'm told Drostens PhD included a paper that wasn't stellar. | 21:49 |
| joerg | PCR *is* designed to detect DNA sequences which is part of the virus and it doesn't even need to "differentiate between live and dead matter", no idea why it should | 21:50 |
| cipres | joerg: you'll get your red pill soon i predict. It will take some time though .. | 21:50 |
| LjL | cipres, Drosten is the inventor of PCR? | 21:50 |
| Turbo_Tech | Anyway I work for the US federal government. | 21:51 |
| vesihiisi | https://twitter.com/statesdj/status/1420857771331817473 | 21:51 |
| joerg | LjL: no, he's not, but cipres spits BS here to provoke and spread FUD | 21:51 |
| cipres | LjL: not of the PCR invention. He invented the PCR test to specifically (falsely) detect covid-19. | 21:52 |
| LjL | joerg, did you consider that maybe that's what i was going to get at | 21:52 |
| Turbo_Tech | In March of 2020 Tom Frieden the Ex CDC director came out talking about vitamin D potentially being important in Sars CoV-2. At work we all wanted to know why. | 21:52 |
| cipres | using the computer-generated genome | 21:52 |
| joerg | LjL: sure | 21:52 |
| Turbo_Tech | We tested ourselves and found that our levels were completely through the floor. and we are healthy adults. | 21:53 |
| Turbo_Tech | 12-13 ng/mL. 25(OH)D. Levels | 21:53 |
| Turbo_Tech | They should be over 30 | 21:54 |
| * joerg eats 1000IE/d since a year now | 21:54 | |
| Turbo_Tech | can I be honest. That is too low | 21:54 |
| LjL | Turbo_Tech, ah yes, vitamin D is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, don't know why i didn't mention that, but there are many tabs i can't keep | 21:54 |
| Turbo_Tech | We started studying how it goes up after supplementation. it takes weeks for the pill you take to go to the liver and turn into 25 (OH)D. | 21:55 |
| joerg | yep | 21:55 |
| genera | well it is fat soluble | 21:55 |
| joerg | 4 to 8 weeks actually | 21:55 |
| LjL | Turbo_Tech, vitamin D seems to be a contentious topic (one of many) with people taking "camps" for or against it as a treatment for COVID, as "correlation is not causation" etc... but... in most of Europe and the US at least, anyone not supplementing vitamin D is going to be deficient at least in the winter. the NHS actually recommends supplementation for *everyone* during the winter months. so since there's a correlation between low levels of D and COVID, i don't | 21:56 |
| LjL | see why mass supplementation wasn't recommended during the winter - causation or not | 21:56 |
| Turbo_Tech | Time out | 21:56 |
| Turbo_Tech | It is bigger than Vitamin D | 21:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: CDC: Delta as contagious as chickenpox: Stephanie Soucheray | News Reporter | CIDRAP News Jul 30, 2021 Breakthrough COVID-19 cases may be as infectious as those in unvaccinated people, says the CDC. → https://is.gd/G05Ui7 | 21:56 |
| Turbo_Tech | I asked if you guys wanted to know where I stand | 21:57 |
| Turbo_Tech | Vitamin D is a hormone, but it also acts as an anti oxidant. | 21:57 |
| joerg | like a lot of other things | 21:58 |
| Turbo_Tech | First off after out studies the conclusion was that no one without supplementation could be replete in winter. My level fell 18% while taking 5000 iu daily. | 21:58 |
| cipres | Turbo_Tech: Vitamin D is an important regulator of the immune system. | 21:58 |
| Turbo_Tech | Please let me finish | 21:59 |
| Turbo_Tech | Besides it being important in Innate and Adaptive immune function and being able to go against the free hormone hypothesis when the Monocyte TLR receptor comes in contact with the organism it also upregulates Nitric Oxide in Endothelium | 22:00 |
| Turbo_Tech | Again this is much bigger than just Vitamin D | 22:01 |
| Turbo_Tech | covid 19 at its very base is a disease of the endothelium. | 22:02 |
| cipres | correct | 22:02 |
| cipres | the spike protein damages the endothelial cells | 22:02 |
| Turbo_Tech | Well it is even deeper than that | 22:02 |
| joerg | LjL: you noticed Brainstorm just provided "your" chickenpox? :-) | 22:02 |
| Turbo_Tech | LOL | 22:03 |
| LjL | joerg, no :P | 22:03 |
| LjL | thanks Brainstorm | 22:03 |
| cipres | that's why shikimic acid is your ally against this contagion | 22:03 |
| Turbo_Tech | Ok so the cytokine storm activates the Reactive oxygen specie in the endothelium and that lowers protective nitric oxide. | 22:03 |
| LjL | Brainstorm, i already had chickenpox though, you won't scare me | 22:03 |
| bin | "[...] in most of Europe and the US at least, anyone not supplementing vitamin D is going to be deficient at least in the winter. [...]" LjL this is not true except in the case of the pandemic where people are sheltering at totally different rates. Most people get enough Vitamin D from their food or from sun exposure in normal times, both in the summer and the winter. It's not super common for | 22:04 |
| bin | people to be prescribed Vitamin D if they're healthy young adults. With the pandemic that has changed because of being indoors all the time. | 22:04 |
| bin | but if Vit D deficiency was a big thing then rickets wuld be widespread and fortunately it's not | 22:05 |
| Turbo_Tech | I was falling asleep one day after work and youtube was running and there was a professor talking about Fructose and how it is impilcated in non alcoholic fatty liver disease, type two diabetes, many Cardiovascular disorders as well as endothelial dysfunction. | 22:06 |
| Turbo_Tech | he said that the Byproduct of Fructose metabolism is Uric acid and it upregulates the Reacitve oxigen specie in Endothelium and deactivates NOS production (Nitric Oxide) | 22:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: What Delta has changed in the Covid pandemic — and what it hasn’t: In some respects, the Delta variant has changed everything in the Covid-19 pandemic. In others, the same rules still apply. Before the variant of SARS-CoV-2 began spreading rapidly in the… → https://is.gd/6t3ryw | 22:07 |
| LjL | bin, there are degrees of deficiency, but anyway here at https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-and-minerals/vitamin-d/ apart from the COVID warning which is obviously new, if you go to the "Should I take a vitamin D supplement?" section it says "During the autumn and winter, you need to get vitamin D from your diet because the sun is not strong enough for the body to make vitamin D." | 22:07 |
| LjL | bin, this is the UK and American practice certainly varies, but if the NHS makes a claim like that i kinda find it reputable | 22:07 |
| bin | I can't speak for the UK I'm speaking for the US | 22:08 |
| Turbo_Tech | I live in Texas I am much farther south than Most states and I can tell you for a fact that Vitamin D falls off the planet in winter | 22:08 |
| bin | I've literally never once had low vitamin d prior to the pandemic | 22:08 |
| Turbo_Tech | Mine fell 18% while taking 5000 iu daily | 22:08 |
| bin | and I've always done my physicals in the winter | 22:08 |
| Turbo_Tech | Is your level between 40-60 ng/mL | 22:09 |
| Turbo_Tech | ? | 22:09 |
| bin | Idr the levels, I just know that everything was good | 22:09 |
| cipres | LjL: it's not that the sun is not "strong enough", it's just that your body will produce lower amounts for the same time exposure | 22:09 |
| Turbo_Tech | Medicine only cares about it being above 20 | 22:09 |
| LjL | bin, vitamin D isn't routinely monitored so if you *know* that people who don't supplement it have enough of it anyway, please provide a study that shows that (in the US or UK or anywhere reasonably north of the equator) because otherwise the NHS is more convincing than you and general US practice to me :P | 22:09 |
| Turbo_Tech | Ok guys | 22:09 |
| bin | LjL: vitamin D is measured as part of your yearly physical here | 22:09 |
| Turbo_Tech | You do not have to believe me. Look up Micheal Hollicks studies | 22:10 |
| bin | hmm interesting so I guess it has been on a massive decline in the US | 22:10 |
| LjL | Turbo_Tech, i think the threshold was 23 here but then they made it 20, presumably... because too many people had 20<D<23 to pay for all the supplements | 22:10 |
| Turbo_Tech | Medicine only studied levels for Bone health. They never looked at replete levels for Immunity. | 22:10 |
| bin | I've been told by several different doctors that it's not normally a concern and I hadn't read any studies | 22:11 |
| bin | wow it's way worse than I thought | 22:11 |
| Turbo_Tech | I have over 2000 hours on these studies | 22:11 |
| bin | okay I stand corrected, it's bad | 22:11 |
| cipres | more Delta garbage ... but at least you're learning some Greek ... | 22:11 |
| Turbo_Tech | in the last year and a half. | 22:11 |
| bin | https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21310306/ | 22:11 |
| LjL | cipres, what? | 22:11 |
| LjL | cipres, who's even talking about Delta? | 22:11 |
| Turbo_Tech | its not just vitamin D | 22:12 |
| Turbo_Tech | Our diets consist high in sugar. | 22:12 |
| Turbo_Tech | Sugar has the ability to reprogram the monocyte which is the immune signaler. | 22:12 |
| Turbo_Tech | I do not know how this is going to render. | 22:13 |
| bin | I find this so weird because Vitamin D is added to so much stuff as a vitamin fortification | 22:13 |
| Turbo_Tech | @page { margin: 0.79in } p { margin-bottom: 0.1in; line-height: 115% } a:link { so-language: zxx } High Fructose Corn Syrup and Table Sugar (also 50% Fructose) reprograms the Immune signaling cell known as the monocyte and activates NLRP3 Inflammasome causing chronic inflammation. Uric Acid produced in the liver by the metabolism of Fructose is responsible. (1) | 22:13 |
| Turbo_Tech | Uric Acid also injures the endothelium (by lowering nitric oxide) of our blood vessels causing many of the preexisting diseases that Covid 19 is exploiting. (2)(3) | 22:13 |
| Turbo_Tech | Sars Cov-2 (virus that causes Covid 19) also activates NLRP3 inflammasome in the monocyte causing inflammation and it exploits the endothelium (especially weakened) by lowering nitric oxide.(3) | 22:13 |
| Turbo_Tech | If Fructose has the ability to injure the specific white blood cell responsible for signaling the immune system and Sars CoV-2 exploits the weakness, why are scientists not looking into this? | 22:13 |
| Turbo_Tech | Anti Oxidants like Melatonin, Vitamin D, Omega 3 fatty acids, Metformin, Quercetin, Omega 9 fatty acids have the ability of deactivating NLRP3 inflammasome in the monocyte and overtime help repair the bodies immune system.(5)(6)(7)(8)(9) | 22:13 |
| Turbo_Tech | There is plenty of data in pubmed that could lead to properly powered studies regarding Stacking of Antioxidants and how they might be protective agents available to help us get back to normal in this age of Covid 19. | 22:13 |
| Turbo_Tech | (1)https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-21461-4 (2)https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5237466/ (3)https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30468651/ (4)https://dash.harvard.edu/handle/1/37368635 (5)https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30862067/ (6)https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6904361/ (7)https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23809162/ (8)https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31182921/ (9)https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28326 | 22:13 |
| Turbo_Tech | / | 22:13 |
| Turbo_Tech | 22:13 | |
| LjL | argh | 22:13 |
| bin | Turbo_Tech: dont do that | 22:13 |
| LjL | don't do that please | 22:13 |
| Turbo_Tech | Ok | 22:13 |
| Turbo_Tech | Damn how can I show you this. | 22:13 |
| bin | send a link | 22:13 |
| LjL | Turbo_Tech, i think ublx used to be rather adamant about COVID being "an endothelial disease" to some extent at some point | 22:13 |
| Turbo_Tech | it is not a link. | 22:13 |
| bin | then make it into one | 22:13 |
| LjL | Turbo_Tech, there are pastebins for that. i used https://paste.ee | 22:13 |
| LjL | use* | 22:14 |
| Turbo_Tech | Ok give me a second. | 22:16 |
| Turbo_Tech | I have a fix | 22:16 |
| Turbo_Tech | Sorry about that. | 22:16 |
| ublx | hm. that endothelial involvement is a factor seems not to be in dispute | 22:17 |
| LjL | Turbo_Tech, no problem. if you don't want the paste to be public, paste.ee can encrypt it with a short key that becomes part of the URL. although of course, this channel is publicly logged anyway. you can also make it time out. | 22:17 |
| Turbo_Tech | https://www.254allstars.com/covid192.html | 22:19 |
| Turbo_Tech | I sent it to my sport photogrpahy surver | 22:20 |
| Turbo_Tech | I have written alot. | 22:20 |
| Turbo_Tech | Here is a longer one that I was writing at the beginning of the year. https://www.254allstars.com/sarscov2.html | 22:21 |
| Turbo_Tech | sorry guys | 22:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: SAGE: Next Covid variant could kill one in three people → https://is.gd/nwHWwe | 22:38 |
| Arsanerit | "could" | 22:40 |
| Arsanerit | What does that even mean? | 22:41 |
| joerg | >>No10's expert panel say coronavirus mutates most when it is in high prevalence<< ohmy really? | 22:44 |
| joerg | they mean one of three infections fatal | 22:47 |
| joerg | if a hypothetical new monster variant emerges | 22:47 |
| LjL | gah | 22:48 |
| LjL | Daily Mail is Daily Mail but what the hell | 22:48 |
| LjL | where is this SAGE report anyway, *link it* if you're going to scare me to death with it, you stupid paper | 22:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Vaccination alone won't stop the rise of new variants and in fact could push the evolution of strains that evade their protection, researchers warned Friday(CNN) → https://is.gd/d42yqe | 22:49 |
| Turbo_Tech | Look at that, I caused a mass extinction event. | 22:50 |
| joerg | it's fear mongering. Actually *IF* such a monster variant emerges anywhere, I'm pretty sure it would rapidly result in extinction of... the virus | 22:50 |
| Turbo_Tech | Ok So basically, Fructose may be implicated in weakening our immune system and Antioxidants might make our chances better. | 22:50 |
| Turbo_Tech | Im | 22:51 |
| Turbo_Tech | I'm Done | 22:51 |
| de-facto | https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/long-term-evolution-of-sars-cov-2-26-july-2021 | 22:53 |
| de-facto | .title | 22:53 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.gov.uk: Long term evolution of SARS-CoV-2, 26 July 2021 - GOV.UK | 22:53 |
| de-facto | Turbo_Tech, btw there i a website listing polyphenol content in foods http://phenol-explorer.eu/ might be interesting context of antioxidants | 22:59 |
| Arsanerit | Is Ebola extinct yet? | 22:59 |
| de-facto | it reappeared recently, so i guess that means it was able to appear from a reservoir somewhere | 22:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from ScienceNews: New delta variant studies show the pandemic is far from over: The coronavirus’s delta variant is different from earlier strains of the virus in worrying ways, health officials are discovering. → https://is.gd/TZEptQ | 23:00 |
| himesama | there is a general claim in biology that pathogens tend to get less harmful over time. i'm not sure the exact reasons for the claim (i suspect it gets a little ecologically involved). but the continued existence of highly harmful diseases from long ago suggests it does not preclude. | 23:00 |
| de-facto | Arsanerit, https://virological.org/c/ebolavirus/9 | 23:00 |
| Turbo_Tech | @de-facto The problem is that foods do not have enough. | 23:00 |
| joerg | himesama: that claim is nonsense, a fallacy | 23:01 |
| Arsanerit | I heard that claim too. | 23:01 |
| himesama | it's been around for a long time | 23:01 |
| Arsanerit | I read the reason is that the less symptoms a strain causes, the more likely it is to be transmitted to others. | 23:01 |
| Arsanerit | It makes sense to me, but I'm no expert so I don't know if it's true. | 23:02 |
| de-facto | it depends when transmission happens | 23:02 |
| joerg | it exists and is "common knowledge" but actually got debunked by some scientists, it only applies for infections that develop symptoms before going contagious phase, iirc | 23:02 |
| himesama | that is one plausible reason for the claim, modulo funeral rituals etc. | 23:02 |
| de-facto | if most transmissions are presymptomatic it does not select for later mild symptoms unless it means such infection chains have increased likelihood of being traced | 23:02 |
| joerg | ^^^ | 23:03 |
| himesama | or there is some genetic or genetic-product-in-context reason why that would place negative pressure on symptom causing stuff | 23:04 |
| himesama | (which seems a bit implausible but in some cases might make sense, dunno) | 23:04 |
| joerg | there isn't | 23:05 |
| joerg | err none known yet | 23:05 |
| joerg | not even a possible plausible vector how this could work | 23:06 |
| himesama | stupid human behavior? | 23:07 |
| de-facto | yet the longer an infection stays presymptomatic the longer unaware viral shedding could take place | 23:07 |
| himesama | or rather, human behavior that does not change | 23:08 |
| de-facto | the sooner viral shedding occurs in presymptomatic phase and the higher the viral load the more infectious a carrier is | 23:08 |
| himesama | why is delta 1000 times more virions but only 2 times more infectious | 23:08 |
| de-facto | basically reproduction = contact_rate * transmissibility * duration_of_shedding | 23:08 |
| LjL | de-facto, "Whilst we feel that current vaccines are excellent for reducing the risk of hospital | 23:13 |
| LjL | admission and disease, we propose that research be focused on vaccines that also | 23:13 |
| LjL | induce high and durable levels of mucosal immunity in order to reduce infection of and | 23:13 |
| LjL | transmission from vaccinated individuals. This could also reduce the possibility of variant | 23:13 |
| LjL | selection in vaccinated individuals." | 23:13 |
| de-facto | in the timeframe of viral shedding from carriers (incubation ~3.7 days with Delta instead of 5.6 days with 2020 variants), in an environment where transmission is possible for given viral load (~1000-fold viral load for Delta compared to 2020 variants), it can transmit only on contacts that take place (increasing contact rates allow for faster reproduction) | 23:15 |
| de-facto | LjL, yeah if vaccine breakthrough cases are transmissible infection chains may continue on optimizing fitness in vaccinated populations, host by host | 23:18 |
| LjL | sure | 23:19 |
| LjL | i'm just pointing out that they're proposing a nasal vaccine, basically, something you've been saying for a while | 23:19 |
| LjL | this paper covers a number of quite relevant topics aside from the three scenarios including the doomsday one | 23:19 |
| LjL | it doesn't have citations though, which is a shame because some of its assertion could be used to put recurrent questions into doubt (like people saying re-infection doesn't normally happen, "Re-infection following SARS-CoV-2 infection is well described in case reports") | 23:20 |
| LjL | and it also basically said that the "it will necessarily become milder" theorem may (or may not) be true in the long term, but is almost irrelevant in the short and medium term | 23:21 |
| de-facto | .title https://science.sciencemag.org/content/373/6553/397 | 23:22 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From science.sciencemag.org: Scent of a vaccine | Science | 23:22 |
| de-facto | "Compared to intramuscular vaccines, intranasal vaccines provide two additional layers of protection: Vaccine-elicited IgA and resident memory B and T cells in the respiratory mucosa provide an effective barrier to infection at those sites; and, even if infection does occur, perhaps by a viral variant, cross-reactive, resident memory B and T cells, which encounter antigen earlier and respond more quickly than systemic memory cells, impede viral | 23:23 |
| de-facto | replication and reduce viral shedding and transmission" | 23:23 |
| de-facto | https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/373/6553/397/F2.large.jpg | 23:25 |
| ublx | LjL: i'm not abundantly active here these days, as you know, but thanks again for putting up and holding this channel together | 23:26 |
| LjL | ublx, next goal: holding myself together | 23:27 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-021-00550-x | 23:28 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.nature.com: Prospects for durable immune control of SARS-CoV-2 and prevention of reinfection | Nature Reviews Immunology | 23:28 |
| de-facto | "Immunity to severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infection is central to long-term control of the current pandemic. Despite our rapidly advancing knowledge of immune memory to SARS-CoV-2, understanding how these responses translate into protection against reinfection at both the individual and population levels remains a major challenge." | 23:29 |
| joerg | the local nasal mucous immune reaction been a subject since... beginning. Makes a lot of sense to focus on this | 23:33 |
| * joerg wonders where to find some passivated or attenuated pathogen covid vaccine remnants to snort ;-D | 23:34 | |
| Turbo_Tech | ;-) | 23:34 |
| vesihiisi | IgA has short half life, those nasal spray vaccines might need boosters every couple months | 23:35 |
| joerg | maybe a nose clamp and a bottle of vodka per day will do? ;-P | 23:35 |
| joerg | what became of those carageen nasal sprays? | 23:36 |
| vesihiisi | also if they are viral vector vaccines, would the immunity against the vector make the boosters inefficient | 23:36 |
| joerg | yes | 23:37 |
| joerg | if that was in reply to my half-joking comment - that's why I said passivated or attenuated pathogen vaccine | 23:38 |
| joerg | vector vaccines are basically also mRNA and wouldn't work as good in that usecase, I'd guess | 23:38 |
| joerg | aiui | 23:39 |
| vesihiisi | imo it looks like keeping neut ab titers high with boosters, prevents breakthroughs to be common. intramuscular vaccines like these mrna | 23:39 |
| vesihiisi | "Among fully vaccinated health care workers, the occurrence of breakthrough infections with SARS-CoV-2 was correlated with neutralizing antibody titers during the peri-infection period" | 23:40 |
| vesihiisi | so its about them, not t-cells. preventing breakthroughs | 23:41 |
| joerg | http://reisenweber.net/irclogs/freenode/__covid-19/search?q=car.%3Fagee%3Fn%28%3Fi%29 | 23:41 |
| Turbo_Tech | Monocytes send the signal to the T-cells. If the monocytes are dysfunctional the signal may not happen. Most hospitalized patients come in with low monocyte counts. | 23:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from Science Daily: (news): Early COVID-19 symptoms differ among age groups, research finds → https://is.gd/ogoUoZ | 23:41 |
| Turbo_Tech | and low lymphocyte counts. | 23:41 |
| joerg | LjL: wtf? :-o http://reisenweber.net/irclogs/freenode/__covid-19/__covid-19.2021-04-25.log.html#t2021-04-25T20:20:52 | 23:42 |
| Turbo_Tech | I want to thank you guys | 23:42 |
| Turbo_Tech | This is a place that is kind of laid back and you can post data. | 23:43 |
| Turbo_Tech | Other places are not as nice. | 23:43 |
| LjL | joerg, it's true! or at least it's the only reason i could imagine i was banned for | 23:43 |
| joerg | idiots everywhere | 23:43 |
| LjL | joerg, their rules https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/wiki/rules say "No Unsourced Speculation, Anecdotal Discussion, or Personal Information: [...] Do not include any stories/information about yourself (for all intents and purposes), your friends, your family, your pets, things your doctor told you, things you overheard on the bus, etc." | 23:44 |
| LjL | joerg, to be "fair" i had already been banned once, for a different reason, and the first ban was 15 days only | 23:44 |
| LjL | i didn't think that mentioning that "i" can get carrageenan OTC was a capital crime of personal information sharing, but apparently, they do think so | 23:45 |
| vesihiisi | i remember some finnish healthcare official saying that something seems to happen to immune system around 60 yo, that sars2 symptoms become more severe. is there some dividing age that could be seen in stats, instead of smooth transfer towards more severe with age? | 23:45 |
| LjL | vesihiisi, last i checked (or probably more like last de-facto checked) it was a very mathematical curve increasing with age | 23:46 |
| joerg | LjL: what I said: idiots everywhere, and was it in here where somebody said "my own IQ drops 10 points each time I hear somebody saying that"? | 23:47 |
| LjL | but it's not a linear growth, iirc the chances of death roughly double every 5 years of age, so "at some point" the chances become "dangerous enough" to say that those people are at high risk. it's semi-arbitrary. although this is information i remember from before Delta | 23:47 |
| vesihiisi | cdc had some stats, but they were by age groups | 23:48 |
| joerg | which translates to "when constantly dealing with idiots, the problem is you slowly turn into one of them" - my personal take on this topic | 23:48 |
| himesama | if immunity tends to in general drop as you age (after a certain point) and if symptoms get worse as you age then the statement that it is the immune system that causes problems has to have some footnotes. what are those footnotes? | 23:49 |
| LjL | joerg, r/covid19 is a very scientifically-minded sub though, i still have it in the list of things that Brainstorm reports posts from. i confess for some moments i thought i would remove it, but then i realized it was 1) a petty revenge 2) that actually did nothing to the mods that banned me 3) and that would do a disfavor to the people here instead. so it's whatever, i'm not going to beg them to get unbanned for something like mentioning in my country something | 23:49 |
| LjL | can be had OTC... i wish them to retain their "quality posters" before they ban them all, though | 23:49 |
| himesama | perhyaps the holy grail is finding perfect responses to idiots that achieve teh maximal outcome | 23:49 |
| de-facto | yeah the Python function to estimate fatalities per infection as function of age for immuno-naive individuals challenged with pre-VoC variants of SARS-CoV-2: def reciprocal_ifr(age): return int(round(186209 / 2**(age / 5.74485))) # https://dx.doi.org/10.1007%2Fs10654-020-00698-1 | 23:50 |
| LjL | vesihiisi, ↑ | 23:50 |
| LjL | %tr <fi vesihiisi | 23:50 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Finnish to English: watercress (MyMemory, Google) | 23:50 |
| vesihiisi | also i remember seeing italian age group mortality stats, when i used them to roghly estimate IFR for india (using their median age - although their population pyramid is probably concave) | 23:50 |
| de-facto | doubling with each 5.75 years age increase, normalized to something like ~1/6 for ~85 year old | 23:50 |
| vesihiisi | try translating vesihiisi sihisi hississä | 23:50 |
| joerg | LjL: they might not fit the classification idiots, but obviously they could use some training in community management and particularly chanop best practice :-) | 23:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from FDA Press Releases: FDA: Coronavirus (COVID-19) Update: July 30, 2021 → https://is.gd/IZVu9I | 23:52 |
| LjL | vesihiisi, "[Watercress] is one of the oldest known leaf vegetables consumed by humans." and i didn't even really know what it was | 23:52 |
| joerg | however they established such harsch and imho overkill measures because they have to deal with a lot of idiots | 23:52 |
| vesihiisi | ventures translated it once as "water pixie", prob using his macbooks translator | 23:52 |
| LjL | i like water pixie | 23:53 |
| vesihiisi | there are some youtube videos on finnish tounge twisters | 23:54 |
| LjL | himesama, re footnotes: maybe it's a bit of a simplification to say that with age the immune system "drops", rather it changes in various ways, and may be less effective but also react incorrectly. i don't really know though, intuitively you have a point | 23:54 |
| himesama | that is presumably part of hte footnotes | 23:55 |
| himesama | inflammation being big | 23:55 |
| vesihiisi | actually watercrass in finnish is vesikrassi | 23:56 |
| Arsanerit | where will we be one year from now? | 23:56 |
| vesihiisi | ..cress | 23:56 |
| Turbo_Tech | Is there a question about the immune system? | 23:58 |
| himesama | yes | 23:58 |
| himesama | :49 | 23:59 |
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