libera/##covid-19/ Sunday, 2021-08-08

himesamawhere does one get vaccine effect on lc rtes from -- 12:33 <LjL> i don't know if they barely help. i know what you get that from, my i am somewhat skeptical on how those numbers are gathered, based on which symptoms, etc...00:24
BrainstormUpdates for Israel: +4221 cases (now 897326), +19 deaths (now 6535) since a day ago — France: +34 deaths (now 112264) since 21 hours ago00:30
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Recent Commits to links:master: Add study on Long COVID in children ( https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/commit/174f702a65fbc1d94a5824e2f3daa56ba27769d9 )00:38
LjLhimesama, "In all age groups the odds of experiencing symptoms for more than 28 days after post-vaccination infection was approximately halved by two vaccinations. Given that vaccinated individuals have a reduced risk of infection overall, this suggests that risk of Long COVID is substantially reduced in individuals who have received double vaccination."00:38
LjLhttps://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ons-short-report-on-long-covid-22-july-202100:38
LjLi think i recall that during that discussion i called into question how "long COVID" was defined and thought that the amount of reduction due to vaccines might change a lot depending on definitions00:40
himesamalikely definitions make all the difference.  for example there is pvfs and what they have called specific organ damage and those wouold need treating separately but even without that there could be confusion.  i like the argument that vax reduces infection ergo could reduce lc but i'd want that tested empirically.00:43
dTalI do think that over 28 days of symptoms exceed what vaccinated people expect00:43
dTalpeople expect to get the sniffles for a few days at worst00:43
BrainstormNew from COVID Zotero group: ONS: Short report on Long COVID, 22 July 2021: Type Web Page URL https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ons-short-report-on-long-covid-22-july-2021 Accessed 2021-08-07 22:39:12 Language en Abstract Paper prepared by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) for the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE). [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/OLPmbT00:43
LjLpeople should get an update on what Delta does00:43
himesamafrom what? --- 15:43 <dTal> people expect to get the sniffles for a few days at worst00:44
dTalcovid00:44
dTalwhen they're vaxxed00:44
himesama28d is much too short to assess lc00:44
himesamapvfs is a confound00:44
dTaland that's if they expect to get sick at all00:44
LjLbut at the same time, regardless of what people expect, "Long COVID" is pretty much an euphemism for "indefinite length symptoms", so 28 days may be a bit on the short side00:44
dTalI don't know about that, if you clear the virus in a week, persistent symptoms three weeks later is cause for concern00:46
dTal28 days was likely chosen because it's longer than most survived infections00:46
himesamawhen cases are reported are those rsults from tests orcan they be taken as results from symptoms?  if the usa has 100k cases per day, that could mean 30k lc cases.  orrrrrrrrrrrrr if it is by testing aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand such testing is not synonymous with being infected to lc point (waves hands) less.00:47
himesamadTal: acute ones though.  are they raelly excluding short term (few months) convalescence?00:47
dTalI think "long covid" means any long tail of symptoms - doesn't have to be infinite00:48
himesamadepends on who you talk to i guess00:48
dTalwe don't know if anyone will have symptoms "forever", but we are sure that if you still have symptoms long after the virus is gone, your body took damage00:49
dTalmaybe after some months you don't really notice your reduced capacity before00:49
himesamatrue that we don't know.  we do know analogues of part of lc with oth3er viruses.  and those havce 97 percent never recover.00:49
dTal*anymore00:49
himesamato support your comment there is a claim by david bell that a lot of seriously disabled in his cohort discounted their disability to the point htat they think they are normal but are not00:50
himesama200+ kids in lyndonville ny00:50
himesamafollowed long term00:51
dTaldisabled from covi?00:51
dTalcovid?00:51
himesamafrom what is frequently called me/cfs; the lyndonville outbreak occurred in the 1980s around the same time as the incline village / lake placid outbreak.00:52
himesamaso they got to be adults in the farming community he is in and they structure hteir lives around their disease and they think they are normal, he says, but they are seriously disabled00:53
himesama(to some degree, with footnotes)00:53
himesamayour chances of recovering are considered better earlier00:53
himesamalike, first 28d or so would be a p(lausible number00:54
BrainstormNew from COVID Zotero group: COVID-19 Associated with Long-Term Cognitive Dysfunction, Acceleration of Alzheimer’s Symptoms | AAIC 2021: Type Web Page URL //www.alz.org/aaic/releases_2021/covid-19-cognitive-impact.asp Accessed 2021-08-07 22:42:41 Language en Abstract New research reported at AAIC 2021 found associations between COVID-19 and [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/KoX62s00:54
LjL"Of the 311 participants with data at all 3 follow-up time points, 37% reported symptom resolution by 30 to 45 days and an additional 19% reported symptom resolution by 7 to 9 months (total of 56% with symptom resolution)."01:02
LjLhttps://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M21-087801:02
LjL("On the other hand, 27% had symptoms at all 3 time points, and 10% reported symptoms at baseline and at 7 to 9 months but not at 30 to 45 days." aka people are complicated)01:02
himesamawhat questions did they ask and did they includef ill in the blank01:04
LjLpresumably at least these https://www.acpjournals.org/na101/home/literatum/publisher/acp/journals/content/aim/0/aim.ahead-of-print/m21-0878/20210701/images/large/m210878tt2.jpeg01:05
LjLor this https://www.acpjournals.org/na101/home/literatum/publisher/acp/journals/content/aim/0/aim.ahead-of-print/m21-0878/20210701/images/large/m210878ff3.jpeg if you prefer01:06
BrainstormUpdates for Lebanon: +1593 cases (now 570098), +6 deaths (now 7938) since 23 hours ago01:07
himesamathe symptoms they asked about are quite complex in that they combined them and added to them01:07
himesamahard for me to make sense of01:08
himesamaat the different time points01:08
LjLi'll tell them to do a better study next time01:09
himesamakthxbye01:09
himesamai wonder if you could subset the symptoms too01:09
himesamabroady01:10
himesamal01:10
himesamawhat does it mean to marginally adjust estimates at 7 to 9 mo?01:12
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Recent Commits to links:master: Add Swiss long-term follow-up study ( https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/commit/9b146858089b0a3f3bf8fc57de1da32ddc968cbd )01:13
BrainstormNew from https://covid19.specops.network : Add Swiss long-term follow-up study: Finds 39% still had symptoms, although only 65% or so of patients didn't drop out → https://is.gd/XVOZjf01:14
LjLthey adjusted the estimates for patients that were lost to follow-up, not sure exactly how01:15
himesamaso trying to adjust for demographics of dropouts on the possibility that that affects the results or something"?01:16
himesamadid they try to track down the dropouts?01:16
LjL"Persons were first sent an online questionnaire, and those who did not respond within 2 weeks were then called individually."01:17
himesamakind of obvious but if you are severe enough you cannot fill out many online questionnaires01:17
LjLif their or their caregiver could answer the phone, presumably they'd have found out about that01:18
himesamathey often have no carer or annot answer phone but possibly thaqt showed up01:18
Jigsy%cases UK01:21
BrainstormJigsy: United Kingdom has had 6.0 million confirmed cases (9.1% of all people) and 130330 deaths (2.2% of cases) as of 7 hours ago. 249.8 million tests were done (2.4% positive). Fatality may lie between 8.1% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 2.7% (considering only deaths and recoveries). +28229 cases since 23 hours ago. See https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/01:21
JigsyNo offloop?01:21
LjLcountries for which i've added an official tracker will show that one instead01:22
JigsyAh.01:22
LjLhttps://offloop.net/covid19/ if you need the url01:22
dTalgood bless tinwhiskers for making that site01:23
LjLdefinitely not wanting to detract from that, but i'm already squeezing out character out of the IRC message length limit by changing the wording of that reply and it doesn't even always work01:24
LjL"The most important factors associated with low Ab titres were age and smoking habit. In particular, current smoking status caused lower Ab titres, and smoking cessation before vaccination may improve the individual efficacy of the BNT162b2 vaccine." https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.06.21261590v101:37
Raf[m]<LjL> "definitely not wanting to..." <- Don't you also have a proper Matrix client? I don't see you talking on it anymore01:48
LjLRaf[m], i do, i use it when i need to (such as when needing to ban someone on the Matrix side, or, actually, changing the topic which i just forgot i was about to do), but i'm much more of an IRC person01:49
LjLthere's nothing "improper" with accessing this channel through IRC for sure :P01:49
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Vaccine-resistant lambda variant is in the US → https://is.gd/QS9iv101:56
BrainstormUpdates for France: +25880 cases (now 6.3 million), +47 deaths (now 112277) since 23 hours ago — Netherlands: +2780 cases (now 1.9 million), +9 deaths (now 18009) since 23 hours ago — Canada: +1252 cases (now 1.4 million) since 23 hours ago — Germany: +2705 cases (now 3.8 million), +6 deaths (now 92277) since 15 hours ago02:34
LjLugh02:45
LjLhttps://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/p03wdh/vaccineresistant_lambda_variant_is_in_the_us/h8489my/02:45
LjLnow they'll say "so show me the proof" (or just downvote me without saying anything)02:45
LjLand i'll have some objective difficulty finding a thoroughly convincing study02:45
LjLbut come on, a statement like "there is absolutely no proof or instance where new variants have caused increased ICU hospitalisations" is unhelpful, deceptive, bad02:46
himesamaso deos this mean new vaccine needed?02:48
BrainstormNew from COVID Zotero group: Comparison of Neutralizing Antibody Titers Elicited by mRNA and Adenoviral Vector Vaccine against SARS-CoV-2 Variants: Type Journal Article Author Takuya Tada Author Hao Zhou Author Marie I. Samanovic Author Belinda M. Dcosta Author Amber Cornelius Author Mark J. Mulligan Author Nathaniel R. Landau URL [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/69o75G02:48
himesamaok what does cov2tree do i wonder.  it does not work in my setup.02:55
LjL<himesama> so deos this mean new vaccine needed? ← i think this has been pretty clear for a while by now, given how Moderna, Pfizer and AZ are all working on new vaccines already, some trialing them02:56
LjL<himesama> ok what does cov2tree do i wonder.  it does not work in my setup. ← it takes a long time to load. it shows you a tree of >1 million sequences, with their defining mutations and the link to the full sequence02:56
himesamabut j and j not working on a new vaccine?02:58
LjLnot that i know of, but i might have missed it02:59
LjLmy guess is people who got J&J will get an mRNA booster mostly02:59
LjLit's harder to develop "variant vaccines" with adenovirus vector vaccines, as you may need to change the vector too03:00
LjLwith mRNA, it's "just" a matter of perfecting the sequence, and then producing it03:00
de-factowell is it? do we know how many shots are tolerated by same mRNA platform with side effects below a tolerable threshold? do the platforms themselves really succeed in avoiding to present provoking platform-epitopes to the immune system? hopefully03:03
de-factootherwise: fortunately we have enough diversity of vaccine platforms that heterogeneous schemes can buy some time to figure out how to minimize immune reaction against platform and maximize against vaccination antigen03:04
LjLall the information i've seen so far is that a third mRNA shot has a similar side effect profile to the second03:05
de-factothat would be really good news03:05
LjLwell, it mostly comes from the companies making them, and it's early information, but sitll03:05
de-factoafaik they use lower doses though, but that also could be because the immune system already is primed and boosted for the s-protein03:05
himesamai prefer third party studies03:06
LjLThese trials also suggest that common vaccine-related side effects, such as headache and fever, aren’t very different from those seen with earlier immunizations. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02158-603:06
de-factoi mean their platforms were designed for mRNA delivery (not only one time) hence it probably was one of their goals to avoid any platform epitopes, if they succeeded it would be great ofc03:07
de-factowell some report more side effects for second mRNA shot, hence question is if third would be less or more than second for them03:08
LjLor the same, which is what it seems to be03:09
LjLi've just posted that Nature article as it was the first googlable thing that showed up, but i've seen this from their own early results03:09
de-factobtw it also could depend on how long ago the previous shot was03:10
LjL%tr <it La percentuale di sequenze ascrivibili alla variante delta, sul totale dei sequenziamenti depositati in I-03:23
LjLCo-Gen, è risultata pari al 2,09% nel mese di aprile, al 7,48% nel mese di maggio, al 40,15% nel mese03:23
LjLdi  giugno,  al  85,66%  nel  mese  di  luglio03:23
LjLeeeeee03:23
BrainstormLjL, Italian to English: The percentage of sequences attributable to the delta variant, out of the total sequences deposited in I- (MyMemory, Google)03:23
LjL%tr <it La percentuale di sequenze ascrivibili alla variante delta, sul totale dei sequenziamenti depositati in I-Co-Gen, è risultata pari al 2,09% nel mese di aprile, al 7,48% nel mese di maggio, al 40,15% nel mese di  giugno,  al  85,66%  nel  mese  di  luglio03:24
BrainstormLjL, Italian to English: The percentage of sequences attributable to the delta variant, out of the total sequences deposited in I-Co-Gen, was 2.09% in April, 7.48% in May, 40.15% in June, 85.66% in July (MyMemory, Google)03:24
LjL%tr <it Negli ultimi 45 giorni fra i lignaggi non oggetto di monitoraggio da parte del Sistema di Sorveglianza Integrata  COVID-19,  ed  identificati  in  I-Co-Gen,  il  3,74%  è  rappresentato  da  VUM  (Variant  under Monitoring  –  lignaggi:  B.1.1.318  e  C.16),  mentre  il  13,26%  da  VOI (Variant of Interest – lignaggi: B.1.621, C.37 cosiddetta variante lambda, B.1.620 e P.3).03:25
BrainstormLjL, Italian to English: In the last 45 days, among the lineages not monitored by the COVID-19 Integrated Surveillance System, and identified in I-Co-Gen, 3.74% is represented by VUM (Variant under Monitoring - lineages: B.1.1 .318 and C.16), while 13.26% from VOI (Variant of Interest - lineages: B.1.621, C.37 so-called lambda variant, B.1.620 and P.3). (MyMemory, Google)03:25
de-factoLjL, interesting does Italy have a sequence data publication hub somewhere?03:29
LjLde-facto, dunno, "I-Co-Gen" leads me here https://irida.iss.it/irida21-aries/login which requires an account03:32
LjLthe PDFs about circulating variants and mutations are fairly detailed, but definitely don't contain sequences03:32
de-factooh so you do have pdfs about variants?03:33
himesamade-facto: i think one of the concerns is one inactive ingredient, peg, which is sort of like latex allergy or so and is in tons and tons of consumer products and some people end up with an allergic reaction to it and perhaps (this is me speculating) further doses of it injected (as opposed to on skin) could pose a risk of pushing those people over the edge into allergy to peg territory.03:35
himesamai think also called polysorbate-8003:35
LjLde-facto, yes, kind of confusingly many, but i think none of them are available in english03:35
LjLde-facto, searching for this brought me to https://www.covid19dataportal.it/it/data_types/genomics_transcriptomics/data/ which has some European, more than Italian, resources, and the whole site itself seems fairly interesting... look at https://www.covid19dataportal.org/sequences?db=sequences&size=15#search-content for example03:36
himesamai.e. more exposure means more risk of allergy.  so i wodner if that applies.  i also wonder if the fact that it is crossing the natural barrier of the skin plays any role.03:36
BrainstormUpdates for Saint Lucia: +66 cases (now 5779) since a day ago03:36
LjLde-facto, also, the Milan Polytechnic apparently keeps this site http://geco.deib.polimi.it/virusurf/ with links to sequences03:37
de-factohimesama, afaik cosmetic products (containing PEG) are not injected under the skin, hence should not prime immune reactions against PEG  (my speculation)03:37
LjLabout 1.3m03:37
himesamade-facto: https://accp1.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jcph.182403:38
LjLhimesama, is peg the same as macrogol03:38
himesamahave never heard of macrogol03:38
himesamapolyethylene glycol, antifreeze03:38
himesamaidk what it is used for in creams etc.03:39
de-factoLjL, neat site indeed also https://www.covid19dataportal.org/phylogeny-tree03:39
himesamayes it is macrogol in that paper03:40
himesamaalso03:40
himesamacalled03:40
de-facto"We present 6 cases of acute hypersensitivity to PEG. [...] All cases were female, with a mean age of 36.4 years. Four patients were originally suspected to have nonsteroid anti-inflammatory drug allergy, and 2 had a history of chronic spontaneous urticaria and angioedema."03:41
LjLde-facto, https://www.covid19dataportal.org/statistics makes me sad ;(03:42
LjLhimesama, the name macrogol appears to be used when it's being employed as a laxative03:42
himesama(note that this is likely not my concern, despite it mentioning angioedema; i do not know whether peg would be an issue for me but i am encouraged that skin prick testing exists for it)03:45
LjLhttps://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/p03wdh/vaccineresistant_lambda_variant_is_in_the_us/h84e9ro/  if you have actual data to add to my reply...03:45
LjLde-facto, https://www.covid19dataportal.org/related-resources also has lots of neat links although we probably already know of the neatest ones there03:49
LjLas many government (or in this case, EU) sites, though, it's not trivial to navigate. i linked to https://www.covid19dataportal.it/it/data_types/genomics_transcriptomics/data/ but i found that from google, where do i find it in the site?03:50
BrainstormNew from COVID Zotero group: ljl-covid: COVID-19 Data Portal - accelerating scientific research through data → https://is.gd/lZWjEd03:51
LjLoh it's actually an italian subsite, duh, didn't realize .it vs .org03:51
de-factoyeah and it got really trippy hover effects on all their buttons, someone had fun :)03:54
de-factoits a really neat resource though, loads of info in there03:55
BrainstormNew from COVID Zotero group: COVID-19 Data Portal Italy: Type Web Page URL http://www.covid19dataportal.it/ Accessed 2021-08-08 01:54:03 Language en Abstract COVID-19 Data Portal for Italian Research → https://is.gd/kmHAtC04:01
BrainstormUpdates for United Kingdom: +21222 cases (now 6.0 million), +77 deaths (now 130407) since 21 hours ago — France: +19549 cases (now 6.3 million), +25 deaths (now 112285) since 21 hours ago — Netherlands: +1830 cases (now 1.9 million), +6 deaths (now 18011) since 21 hours ago — Canada: +614 cases (now 1.4 million) since 21 hours ago04:39
LjL%cases italy04:40
BrainstormLjL: Italy has had 4.4 million confirmed cases (7.3% of all people) and 128209 deaths (2.9% of cases) as of 9 hours ago. 79.0 million tests were done (5.6% positive). Fatality may lie between 3.8% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 3.0% (considering only deaths and recoveries). +6897 cases, +22 deaths since a day ago. See https://www.epicentro.iss.it/en/coronavirus/sars-cov-2-dashboard or https://lab24.ilsole24ore.com/coronavirus/04:40
LjL%cases uk04:41
BrainstormLjL: United Kingdom has had 6.0 million confirmed cases (9.1% of all people) and 130407 deaths (2.2% of cases) as of a minute ago. 249.8 million tests were done (2.4% positive). Fatality may lie between 8.1% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 2.7% (considering only deaths and recoveries). +21222 cases, +77 deaths since 21 hours ago. See https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/04:41
LjLi think i might have to revise the fatality rate calculations04:41
LjLi'm not really sure i understand the rationale behind the original calculations in the first place...04:44
BrainstormUpdates for Germany: +2706 cases (now 3.8 million) since 18 hours ago05:30
gryi wish there was a 'do you have covid19' test that works on day zero, without needing to wait for the virus to replicate in thousands of particles in your nasal cavity05:44
grysomething that works quickly and reliably05:44
AndrewYugry: agreed05:48
gryask the patient to smell something that, like onion, causes their nose to run - then test the extracted nose output? kinda represents lots of surfaces, not one measurement point05:52
grypair up a manufacturer of 'make you cry and your nose run' medicines with the rapid antigen tests guy and get them to invest together05:53
gryparticularly if it's something harmless05:53
BrainstormNew from This Week In Virology: TWiV 791: A mad virologists' T party: TWiV reviews SARS-CoV-2 infection of wild white-tailed deer in the US, mRNA vaccine-mediated protection by spike-specific T cells before detection of neutralizing antibodies, and recovery from SARS-CoV-2 infection in T-cell depleted rhesus macaques. → https://is.gd/14IDR006:07
BrainstormUpdates for Rio de Janeiro, Brazil: +12417 cases (now 1.1 million), +172 deaths (now 59959) since 23 hours ago — New York, United States: +4491 cases (now 2.2 million) since 23 hours ago — Ohio, United States: +2317 cases (now 1.1 million) since 23 hours ago — New Jersey, United States: +1539 cases (now 1.0 million), +9 deaths (now 26645) since 23 hours ago07:34
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Thousands protest across France over Macron’s Covid-19 health pass & mandatory vaccination (VIDEOS) → https://is.gd/jkrjgz07:51
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: New York City’s vaccine passport plan renews online privacy debate → https://is.gd/1emd3F08:32
BrainstormNew from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | August 08, 2021: Please refer to our Wiki for more information on COVID-19 and our sub. You can find answers to frequently asked questions in our FAQ , where there is valuable information such as our: → https://is.gd/Ds8zIV09:03
BrainstormUpdates for India: +39070 cases (now 31.9 million), +478 deaths (now 427708) since 15 hours ago09:38
JigsyMy step-sister had an allergic reaction to the COVID-19 injection.09:41
JigsyLiver and Kidneys working at 50%...09:42
BrainstormUpdates for Dominica: +149 cases (now 367) since 6 days ago11:05
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): CoronavirusUK: 88% of adults in the UK have received their 1st dose, 74.1% have received both doses → https://is.gd/N2uuH011:19
BrainstormUpdates for Germany: +2458 cases (now 3.8 million) since 23 hours ago11:30
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Indonesia study shows Sinovac Covid-19 vaccine 85% effective against symptomatic illness among older folk → https://is.gd/AQyLL212:11
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express (Health): Health: Some dos and don’ts for people suffering from post-Covid hair loss → https://is.gd/XHbUQf12:22
BrainstormUpdates for Finland: +1322 cases (now 112207) since a day ago12:32
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Once lagging, Europe catches up to the US in vaccinations → https://is.gd/w8g6Jf12:42
BrainstormUpdates for Nepal: +2137 cases (now 714877), +55 deaths (now 10093) since 23 hours ago13:10
pwr22ffs, 100 deaths per day now in the UK13:23
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Wuhan completes mass Covid testing on 11.3 million people, finds 9 positive cases who have now all been hospitalized → https://is.gd/su3fiB13:34
BrainstormUpdates for Iran: +39619 cases (now 4.2 million), +542 deaths (now 94015) since 23 hours ago13:34
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Singapore to recognise all with WHO-approved vaccine including Sinovac as fully vaccinated for dining in, other activities → https://is.gd/M008qA14:59
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express (Health): Destination of the week: Zimbabwe floods Victoria Falls with vaccines to help tourism → https://is.gd/AIqwZp15:19
de-factohttp://offloop.net/covid19/?default=EU;France;Spain;Italy;Germany;Poland;Netherlands;Czechia;Belgium;Sweden;Romania;Portugal;Hungary;Austria;Greece;Bulgaria;Slovakia;Croatia;Denmark;Ireland;Lithuania;Slovenia;Latvia;Estonia;Finland;Cyprus;Luxembourg;Malta&byPopulation=yes&logScale=yes&cumulative=no&smooth=yes&miscType=Reff&leftTrim=50015:20
dTalde-facto: what about it?15:24
de-factosome EU states are on the rise, others on plateau, maybe some also on the fall?15:28
de-factothe resulting EU curve looks like plateau, because the rising are compensated by the falling15:30
de-factoi wonder if its just the Delta burning through younger people or if its tourism related15:30
de-facto.title https://www.nature.com/articles/s41597-021-00950-715:38
Brainstormde-facto: From www.nature.com: COVID-19 European regional tracker | Scientific Data15:38
de-facto.title https://github.com/asjadnaqvi/COVID19-European-Regional-Tracker15:38
Brainstormde-facto: From github.com: GitHub - asjadnaqvi/COVID19-European-Regional-Tracker: Tracking the spread of COVID-19 across NUTS3 and NUTS2 regions in European countries.15:38
de-facto.title https://asjadnaqvi.github.io/COVID19-European-Regional-Tracker/15:38
Brainstormde-facto: From asjadnaqvi.github.io: COVID-19 European Regional Tracker | Tracking the spread of COVID-19 across NUTS3 and NUTS2 regions in 26 European countries.15:38
de-factoLjL, maybe something for the links ^^15:39
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Saudi Arabia to reopen borders to vaccinated pilgrims → https://is.gd/sWeMbP15:40
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Uruguay does not record COVID deaths for the first time in 2021 → https://is.gd/EJxnNa15:51
BrainstormUpdates for Bangladesh: +10299 cases (now 1.4 million) since 22 hours ago16:04
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: France, Italy see mass protests against COVID health pass → https://is.gd/r8twA216:22
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Tokyo douses Olympic flame, ending pandemic Games → https://is.gd/CUY2po16:32
BrainstormUpdates for Germany: +2745 cases (now 3.8 million), +8 deaths (now 92279) since 23 hours ago17:06
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: 1/3 of Israel's older population has received COVID-19 booster shot as Delta cases rise → https://is.gd/qxeD7g17:25
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: COVID: Sri Lankan Army offers help to ease burden on crematoriums, morgues → https://is.gd/DJHx5F18:07
BrainstormUpdates for United Kingdom: +27062 cases (now 6.1 million) since 15 hours ago — Italy: +5733 cases (now 4.4 million), +11 deaths (now 128220) since 23 hours ago18:08
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV: 'I expect the worst': A Texas parent worries about sending her children back to school in person → https://is.gd/WPC29b18:28
BrainstormUpdates for Albania: +182 cases (now 133912) since a day ago — Yemen: +34 cases (now 7165), +2 deaths (now 1386) since a day ago — Canada: +6 deaths (now 26669) since 23 hours ago18:33
nixonixaz vs hospitalization from SA variant 67%, and from 617.2 71%   https://twitter.com/profshanecrotty/status/142368481230962688918:47
de-facto.title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.06.21261725v118:50
Brainstormde-facto: From www.medrxiv.org: Modelling the effectiveness and social costs of daily lateral flow antigen tests versus quarantine in preventing onward transmission of COVID-19 from traced contacts | medRxiv18:50
de-facto.title https://khub.net/web/phe-national/public-library/-/document_library/v2WsRK3ZlEig/view/47960726618:53
Brainstormde-facto: From khub.net: Effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines against hospital admission with the Delta variant - Public library - PHE national - Knowledge Hub18:53
nixonixjnj slightly worse. i didnt find the actual link to study, tho   https://twitter.com/miamalan/status/142353102531397632218:53
nixonixisnt that british, i just visited that khub (and have downloaded that before)18:54
LjLnixonix, what do you mean "vs" hospitalization? their efficacy against hospitalization is 67%/71%? that would be pretty terrible18:56
LjLjesus18:56
nixonixyeah, click the link and scroll down (if those are true - i didnt find the study link yet)18:56
LjLis it looking at just 1 dose though?18:57
LjLif you scroll *up* it seems to be in the context of comparing it to J&J with one dose18:57
LjLalso where is link to study :(18:57
LjLoh i found it okay18:57
de-facto.title https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.01.450707v118:58
Brainstormde-facto: From www.biorxiv.org: Ad26.COV2.S elicited neutralizing activity against Delta and other SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern | bioRxiv18:58
nixonix71%  confirmed here https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/johnson-and-johnson-vaccine-effective-against-delta-variant-1.464067818:58
de-factoprobably similar Delta ~ Beta?18:58
LjLnixonix, 71% is after one dose. 92% after two18:58
LjLhttps://khub.net/web/phe-national/public-library/-/document_library/v2WsRK3ZlEig/view_file/479607329?_com_liferay_document_library_web_portlet_DLPortlet_INSTANCE_v2WsRK3ZlEig_redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fkhub.net%3A443%2Fweb%2Fphe-national%2Fpublic-library%2F-%2Fdocument_library%2Fv2WsRK3ZlEig%2Fview%2F479607266  page 218:59
nixonixwas it? in SA - is that khub SA?18:59
nixonixah yeah, single dose it says18:59
LjLyes, and strangely, the efficacy against hospitalization with Alpha is *worse*19:00
LjL76% after 1, 86% after 219:00
LjL(so it's better after 1 but worse after 2)19:00
LjL(but the CIs are large)19:00
nixonixsingle dose of jnj, though... az still open19:00
de-factodid they compare same cohort at same time? i guess not19:00
nixonixi think the SA from the weet was when he compared it to uk's first dose of az. so they only studied jnj in SA19:01
nixonixwhich got 67/71% on those two variants19:01
nixonixmaybe AZ is better, as ive heard the 2nd dose of it is awesome...19:02
LjLtbh i always thought J&J wouldn't be any different from a single shot of AZ or other adenovirus vaccines19:03
LjLit's just that they decided to study it over 1 shot instead of 2, to differentiate themselves from competitors19:03
de-factohmm it seems they did it from same time and cohort19:04
de-factolooks like they have done it properly19:04
LjLnote this study is from the UK19:04
LjLthe one from SA is about J&J19:04
LjLthe tweets made it a bit confusing19:04
LjL(i don't know where the SA study is)19:04
de-facto"Individuals reporting symptoms and testing positive on PCR between 12th April and 4th June 2021 were included in the analysis."19:05
nixonixbecause they noticed the 2nd shot with the same vector isnt worth much, they thought lets market this as a single shot vaccine. seems to be sufficient for some, like that aus celebrity who visited usa and took it19:05
nixonix.title https://gothamist.com/news/jj-covid-vaccine-thwarts-delta-breakthrough-infections-large-south-african-trial-what-it-means-nyc19:06
de-factoalso they say they had such a small number of Moderna that they dropped those from their analysis19:06
Brainstormnixonix: From gothamist.com: J&J COVID Vaccine Thwarts Delta Breakthrough Infections In Large South African Trial. What It Means For NYC - Gothamist19:06
de-factointeresting details in the supplementary material19:08
LjLi would be willing to bet that hospitalization efficacy for Delta being better than for Alpha is a statistical fluke, since it's well within the CIs19:09
LjLnixonix, ah, so for now it was just a presentation, no study out?19:10
nixonix.title https://www.icelandreview.com/society/covid-19-in-iceland-vaccination-has-not-led-to-herd-immunity-says-chief-epidemiologist/19:10
Brainstormnixonix: From www.icelandreview.com: COVID-19 in Iceland: Vaccination Has Not Led to Herd Immunity, Says Chief Epidemiologist19:10
nixonixmaybe19:10
nixonix.title https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-vaccine-doses-by-manufacturer?country=~ISL19:11
Brainstormnixonix: From ourworldindata.org: COVID-19 vaccine doses administered by manufacturer - Our World in Data19:11
nixonixdicussion, more information on iceland, links  https://twitter.com/fascinatorfun/status/142430096208528179219:12
nixonixi just noticed those owid pages. not that many countries, but some19:13
nixonixthis too, just noticed recently19:14
nixonix.title https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/current-covid-hospitalizations-per-million19:14
Brainstormnixonix: From ourworldindata.org: Number of COVID-19 patients in hospital per million - Our World in Data19:14
nixonixcliff notes from the article ljl? https://twitter.com/lolwestinghouse/status/142432187387000012819:34
nixonix.title https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/07/prof-francois-balloux-the-pandemic-has-created-a-market-for-gloom-and-doom19:40
Brainstormnixonix: From www.theguardian.com: Prof Francois Balloux: ‘The pandemic has created a market for gloom and doom’ | Coronavirus | The Guardian19:41
LjLwow, i just filed an adverse reaction form for my mom's problems with AZ, they really make it difficult... most people not so familiar with computers would give up19:47
LjLde-facto, “Sequencing has shown us that the origin of most domestic infections can be traced to group events such as clubbing in downtown Reykjavík or group trips abroad.”19:47
LjLnightlife and travel do seem like a constant19:48
nixonixrt and 10 years old - ill look up some other article on the subject some day, but here:19:50
nixonix.title https://www.rt.com/news/bird-flu-killer-strain-119/19:50
Brainstormnixonix: From www.rt.com: Man-made super-flu could kill half humanity — RT World News19:50
LjLYou have stated that a “non-trivial” number of long-Covid cases are psychosomatic.19:50
LjLWe know that infections such as Covid lead to post-viral syndromes. At the risk of being insensitive, I would be surprised if there wasn’t a link between disease severity and the severity of follow-up symptoms. Like tuberculosis or influenza, people who have a severe case should expect to take a long time to recover fully. And sometimes recovery is never complete.19:50
LjLThe situation is more complicated with a mild infection. Post-viral symptoms can happen but it seems relatively implausible to me that this would happen very frequently. In all likelihood, some cases are psychosomatic – though this doesn’t make the suffering less real for those affected or reduce the cost to society. All disease is real, irrespective of its root cause.19:50
LjLhttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/07/prof-francois-balloux-the-pandemic-has-created-a-market-for-gloom-and-doom19:50
LjLhimesama, ↑19:50
LjLi strongly disagree with this assessment myself. the studies on persistent symptoms are there, include mild disease, and they're not out of thin air and people being whiney19:51
LjLif your smell didn't come back, for example, it didn't come back, i don't see why people would "lie" about that19:51
de-factoLjL, how is your mom btw?19:52
LjLsigh, appropriately:19:52
LjLYou had a bad bout of Covid – does this inform your view?19:52
LjLI try to discount my own experience when I think about public health issues. That said, I would probably be included as having long Covid because six months later I haven’t fully recovered my sense of smell or taste.19:52
nixonixyeah, but some part of the lc symptoms are psychosomoatic. how large, you need control groups.19:53
nixonixbut there also underreporting of them19:53
nixonixand then those that you dont know of, damage to organs, possibly telomeres and what not19:53
LjLde-facto, the strong vertigo has gone away after 5 days (3 days the first time). it hasn't come back. that's why we've filed this report now. she sometimes still has short bouts of vertigo, and given this experience and her being prone to panic attacks, they scare her and she gets blood pressure spikes... but, i remember she had these short bouts before too. so it seems very different from what she had for days after the AZ doses. also, RMI found strong cervical19:53
LjLarthritis, but the ENT doctor said that can give occasional dizziness but not the kind of vertigo she had19:53
nixonix"it will take years and decades to find out" quoting some expert roughly19:54
de-factoLjL, does she drink coffee?19:54
LjLyes19:54
LjLnot much19:54
de-factomaybe she should pause that, imho if there is some inflammation in the inner ear it could worsen by coffee19:54
de-facto(speaking of own experience)19:55
LjLbut whatever she had is gone now. if it comes back without another shot of vaccine, then we'll have to reopen the whole issue i guess19:55
de-factoglad to hear that19:55
LjLpersonally i think this seems very strongly correlated with the vaccine. a similar amount of time after it, lasted a similar amount of days19:55
de-factoyes19:56
nixonixfunny i got some similar type side effects week later again, that i got day after the 2nd shot (tired, a bit vertigo, headache). but who knows, those day after might be something else than from vaccine, esp headache that you can get from anything19:57
LjLdid it happen both times, though?19:58
de-factofor me quitting coffee, drinking lots of water/green tea and spices that help with small vessel bloodflow helped, e.g. cardamom, pepper, etc19:58
nixonixmy dear coffee, ill never leave you19:59
de-factohaha :D19:59
de-factomy suspicion is that s-protein somehow may cause an inflammation of inner ear, hence hinder bloodflow in the tiny bloodvessels there, but i dont have any data other than that tinnitus and vertigo seem to be quite common side effects from those vaccines20:01
nixonixyou got tinnitus as a side effect?20:01
de-factoso anything anti-inflammatory and helping with bloodflow in tiny vessels may be of help20:01
LjLfortunately my tinnitus didn't get any *worse* when i got the vaccine20:01
nixonix2nd shot?20:02
LjLeither shot20:02
LjLi've had tinnitus for years, the vaccine didn't do anything to it20:02
nixonixmy tinnitus got worse, but just 2 weeks after the 2nd (getting better now it seems). coincident prob20:03
LjLi got Pfizer though20:03
de-factono tinnitus but a bit of vertigo and sometimes a bit less well hearing in the high frequencies, it clearly correlates with hydration (gets better) and anticorrelates with coffee, also cardamom/pepper/propolis for some reason seems to help20:03
nixonixbut anyways, antibodies, not s-protein, those delayed side effects20:03
de-factoidk its highly unscientific, only my personal anecdotal experience20:03
LjLnixonix, i don't know about that, the S-protein is supposedly still being produced after a week or two20:03
LjLi don't think it has very well been studied20:03
nixonixsome source said 72 h, some source said about day. some old mrna study said something like 10 days or was it 7 - but it was not about these current vaccines20:04
nixonixmaybe they dont know20:04
nixonixinteresting subject, but such small side effects compared to risks of sars2. ill keep following it though20:07
nixonixanecdotal some md got bigger side effects from the 3rd, ill find the tweet...20:08
nixonixhere https://twitter.com/hyanit1101/status/142435187495457996920:09
nixonixhttps://twitter.com/Grixey/status/142432911114160128620:10
de-facto.title https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1000534/AZ_DAP.pdf20:10
Brainstormde-facto: From assets.publishing.service.gov.uk: COVID-19 AstraZeneca Vaccine Analysis Print20:10
de-facto.title https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1000532/Pfizer_DAP.pdf20:10
Brainstormde-facto: From assets.publishing.service.gov.uk: COVID-19 mRNA Pfizer- BioNTech Vaccine Analysis Print20:10
LjLnixonix, they're small side effects but my mom got very scared. if it became a *known* side effect, people could be less scared if they know it goes away20:10
nixonix.title https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-variants-could-be-named-after-constellations-once-greek-alphabet-is-used-up-who-official-says-1237631420:10
Brainstormnixonix: From news.sky.com: COVID-19 variants could be named after constellations once Greek alphabet is used up, WHO official says | World News | Sky News20:10
LjLthat's why i wanted to report it, although one report won't make any difference20:11
LjLnixonix, that's about 10x more ICU admissions (a bit more than 10x, but close to an order of magnitude), so it sort of matches up with the 90%-ish we know from some analyses20:11
LjL(the TousAntiCovid figures)20:11
BrainstormNew from CDC (old): Cases in the U.S.: CDC COVID Data Tracker - Cases and Deaths by State → https://is.gd/yJtqEF20:12
LjLthe WHO certainly spends a lot of time figuring out naming20:12
LjLsometimes i wonder if they do other things as well20:12
de-factoso those two PDFs above show that there are many reports about inner ear related side effects20:12
nixonixyeah, they should find more information to warn ppl when they are actually getting the shot, 2nd esp, and check from web page those signs of heart inflammation, VITT etc, and not worry about other misc effects20:12
de-factoso i guess its more common20:12
LjLde-facto, i've looked at those side effect reports before, but while vertigo is widely reported, my problem with them is they don't make a distinction between immediate and delayed reactions. i imagine most are immediate.20:12
de-factoyeah20:13
nixonixi read somewhere, some expert interviewed, that if you get them delayed like week afterwards, its a rona20:15
de-facto.title https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1007276/Moderna_DAP.pdf20:15
Brainstormde-facto: From assets.publishing.service.gov.uk: COVID-19 Moderna Vaccine Analysis Print20:15
nixonixwhen i think its not...20:15
de-factowhat other vaccines were given in UK?20:16
Sky_Net%cases moscow20:17
BrainstormSky_Net: Moscow, Russia has had 1.5 million confirmed cases (12.0% of all people) and 26126 deaths (1.7% of cases) as of 12 hours ago. +2235 cases, +67 deaths since 23 hours ago. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Moscow20:17
BrainstormSky_Net: If you know of an official or otherwise good site for data about Moscow, with a reasonably short URL, please %tell LjL about it.20:17
nixonixwell, production of s-protein was it that continues for possibly 72h or whatever it is actually, but then you have it as cell surface proteins for awhile. and when those are recycled by enzymes, there could be loose parts like s1 from them for some time20:21
LjLit can't be a 'rona *twice* though, can it20:22
nixonixyou mean like wee in between?20:24
nixonixjust those 3 rona vaxes in uk, for now  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_the_United_Kingdom20:24
nixonixweeK20:24
de-facto.title https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/reactogenicity.html20:25
Brainstormde-facto: From www.cdc.gov: Reactions and Adverse Events of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine | CDC20:25
de-facto.title https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/moderna/reactogenicity.html20:25
Brainstormde-facto: From www.cdc.gov: Local Reactions, Systemic Reactions, Adverse Events, and Serious Adverse Events: Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine | CDC20:25
de-facto.title https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/janssen/reactogenicity.html20:25
Brainstormde-facto: From www.cdc.gov: Local Reactions, Systemic Reactions, Adverse Events, and Serious Adverse Events: Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine (J&J) | CDC20:25
nixonixhttps://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/global-covid-19-vaccine-summary-side-effects20:26
nixonixno, it was that metallic taste, if it comes later than very soon, its a rona:20:28
nixonix.title https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/strange-covid-vaccine-side-effect-194613490.html20:28
Brainstormnixonix: From www.yahoo.com: The Strange New COVID Vaccine Side Effect That's Confusing Even Doctors20:28
nixonix(water tasted a bit odd during my 2nd dose of possible side effects. not metallic tho, and food tasted normal. went away in a few hours)20:29
nixonixwhen i have lost my taste from other ili's, the first symptom i noticed was the water taste. not metallic imo, more like sweet20:30
LjLnixonix, i wonder if it could be related to actual loss of taste from COVID. in many cases it's not "loss" but change20:33
nixonixthere was some discussion on side effects, if i find it (no, i didnt got rona!)20:33
nixonixyeah, partial loss prob then20:33
nixonixit has happened to me from other ilis20:33
nixonixwhen it happens once, it can happen often again, for some time (by my experience)20:34
LjLhopefully it's a different phenomenon from the COVID one since the COVID one is so correlated with neurological/cognitive damage20:34
nixonixthe same with watery flowing sniffles, happened once, then it happened often during the next year or two20:35
nixonixsome said it was my brains draining from the nose20:35
LjL:P20:35
nixonixit had some truth, it can happen, i recall reading some article once20:36
LjLTIL nixonix is an egyptian mummy20:36
nixonixwhat did they say in that .pt article?20:36
LjLhttp://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Iceland&byPopulation=yes&smooth=yes  how strangely non-exponential Iceland's waves look20:38
LjLportugal? doesn't ring a bell20:39
nixonixit was in that tweet i linked above. relative language so i thought youd give us a summary...20:39
LjLoh, okay,let me see20:40
nixonixhttps://twitter.com/lolwestinghouse/status/142432187387000012820:40
LjLnixonix, about that third dose, they say they got Moderna as their *first* dose, meaning presumably they got Pfizer the other time. Moderna is kinda known for having somewhat worse side effects20:42
BrainstormNew from COVID Zotero group: ljl-covid: Effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines against hospital admission with the Delta variant - Public library - PHE national - Knowledge Hub → https://is.gd/S9jGdZ20:43
LjL%tr <pt mais tarde ou mais cedo, será necessária uma terceira dose, já que os anticorpos detetados ao fim de seis meses da vacinação podem não ser já protetores.20:43
BrainstormLjL, Portuguese to English: sooner or later, a third dose will be needed, as antibodies detected after six months of vaccination may no longer be protective. (MyMemory, Google)20:43
LjL%tr <pt  a revacinação deveria ser extensível à comunidade, primeiro aos mais suscetíveis, aos vacinados há mais de seis meses e depois "a toda a população, independentemente da idade, para que os surtos possam ser controlados. evitando ainda a evolução para variantes mais agressivas".20:43
BrainstormLjL, Portuguese to English: revaccination should be extended to the community, first to the most susceptible, to those vaccinated for more than six months and then "to the entire population, regardless of age, so that the outbreaks can be controlled. It also prevents the evolution to more aggressive variants". (MyMemory, Google)20:43
LjL%tr <pt 97,7% responderam com um nível muito elevado de títulos de anticorpos ao fim dos 14 dias da segunda dose da vacina -, mas que estes desceram abruptamente ao fim de três meses, em média para cerca de um sexto do valor inicial. Esta descida manteve-se ao fim dos seis meses"20:44
BrainstormLjL, Portuguese to English: 97.7% responded with a very high level of antibody titres after 14 days of the second vaccine dose - but that these dropped abruptly after three months, on average to about one-sixth of the initial value. This decline continued after six months" (MyMemory, Google)20:45
LjLthree months sounds like soon... but do we really expect *antibodies* to stay high? i didn't think that's how the immune system worked20:45
LjL%tr <pt Mas, ao mesmo tempo, outro dado revelador era o de que "esta descida foi mais suave em indivíduos que tinham tido contacto com o vírus anteriormente, demonstrando que estas pessoas desenvolveram uma resposta mais robusta".20:46
nixonixdiscussion on side effects. i had a look on this some time ago, and it had some interesting stuff, if anyones interested:20:46
nixonix.title https://www.medscape.com/sites/public/covid-19/vaccine-insights/how-concerned-are-you-about-vaccine-related-adverse-events20:46
Brainstormnixonix: From www.medscape.com: How concerned are you about adverse events related to the vaccines?20:46
BrainstormLjL, Portuguese to English: But, at the same time, another revealing fact was that "this descent was smoother in individuals who had previously had contact with the virus, demonstrating that these people developed a more robust response". (MyMemory, Google)20:46
nixonixmd's and some other professionals, in the discussion20:46
LjLthis is... interesting, not in a good way20:46
LjLi mean the last translated sentence20:47
LjLfirst comment: "these so-called vaccines"20:47
LjLgood thing the comments are limited to medical professionals20:47
LjL"Has anybody considered the consequences of wearing a face covering on a 24 hr shift?  I can tell you what capnography proves. I can show changes in My before/after shift EKG.  That at least tangible and not based on models. " O.o20:49
LjLalso i'm not sure any medical professional should have a 24h shift, without serious risks to the patients...20:49
LjL"I'm a 35+ year critical care RN. Now doing dementia care. I have a woman who is permanently disabled from GB, and her PCP approved the jabs. (I refuse to call it a vaccine because it is not, by any definition)." oh please20:50
LjLi automatically discount anyone who claims it's "not a vaccine" because that's bullshit20:50
ArsaneritWhat is GB?20:50
LjLit's different from previous vaccines but ultimately does the exact same thing: gets your body exposed to an antigen so it develops antibodies20:50
LjLArsanerit, Guillain-Barré probably20:51
ArsaneritA commentator claims a vaccine made someone permanently disabled?  Or am I misinterpreting this?20:52
nixonixah, wasnt there some weak GBS signal, jnj was it? but some other vaccines have it too, like meningitis vacc i think20:52
LjLuh, someone who clearly doesn't "believe in PCR" links this https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/07-21-2021-lab-alert-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html and it makes me raise my eyebrows too20:53
LjLthey say people should switch to tests that can "differentiate" COVID from influenza? because somehow their PCR assay can't?!20:54
nixonixjust skip over those loonies, they use the places where they can get visibility without censorship (unless interested in their thoughts, im not)20:55
specingLjL: whcih vaccine is that RN talking about?20:55
de-factono no no i think they mean test for both in one shot20:56
LjLspecing, RN?20:56
de-factonot that PCR is unspecific or such, they just can amplify multiple primers in parallel20:56
specing> I'm a 35+ year critical care RN.20:56
LjLspecing, it doesn't say20:57
nixonixregistered nurse?20:57
LjLyes, probably20:57
LjLbut it doesn't say the vaccine20:57
LjLbut this page seems heavily dominated by Americans, so probably mRNA20:57
LjL"@Dr H. Raiser Chronic mask wearing increases gum disease, etc., could be potential contributor to secondary pneumonias?" ← groan20:58
LjLnixonix, i'm not really sure what remains after i've skipped the loonies ;(20:58
LjL"Am I missing something? Is covid-19 not a variant of the coronavirus responsible for common colds?  Or is that a mutation?" ← yes, you're missing something that if you're a healthcare professional you really shouldn't be missing20:59
LjL"I can’t think of one person I have come in contact with with a +covid pcr. That has not had at least one dose of vax personally." ← same person, good lord21:00
nixonixbtw, theres lots of british pediatricians opposing vaccinating children, like 12-16 yo something. some of their ideas have spreaded to finnish pediatricians too - and veterinarians, those are even on another level, which seems to be international phenomenom...21:00
LjL"One unvaxxed pt reported that after spending 5 days with 2 vaxxed house guests, her menstrual cycle came (atypically) one week early.  She c/o fatigue, cramping, heavy bleeding x 2 weeks.  Her cycle had been normal since menarche.  3 weeks later she experienced the same.  I treated her as per Dr. Christiane Northrup advised:  lavender organic laundry soap in a hot bath infused with alfalfa." ← ugh21:00
nixonixbut not to usa, at least to all of them:21:01
nixonix.title https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/pediatricians-plead-fda-move-quickly-covid-vaccine-kids-n127619121:01
Brainstormnixonix: From www.nbcnews.com: Pediatricians plead with FDA to move quickly on Covid vaccine for kids21:01
LjLthe comment by "Debbie Nazzaro" sounds genuinely not a good thing21:01
nixonixwhat, alfafa. forget i linked that discussion...21:02
LjLthen one presumed doctor lists side effects their patients have had. looks genuine, scariest at the end, "death", one case. but then it says "The strangest thing I've seen is people becoming magnetic, saw rumors of this online so tested it in clinic. I've had 3 pts with metal objects sticking to their limbs..."21:02
Arsanerit"lavender organic laundry soap"?21:03
LjLnixonix, it's genuinely terrible but search for that Debbie Nazzaro comment21:03
nixonixi just searched some side effect stuff from it, using ctrl-f21:03
ArsaneritAre we basing information on pseudonymous website comments now?21:03
LjLalso i don't know, maybe we should understand what these people are thinking21:03
LjLArsanerit, i'm highlighting it as nonsense21:03
LjLif you're "basing" anything on it it's not my fault :P21:03
nixonixwho are "we"?21:04
ArsaneritWe can base on them the conclusion that we should pay no attention to those comments?21:04
LjLanyway it's appalling that Medscape says these comments are moderated, and from health professionals only, and this is the show they give21:06
LjLArsanerit, i disagree21:06
LjLbut you're free to pay no attention to them21:06
ArsaneritIt was a question.21:06
LjLArsanerit, well then my answer is "probably not", because if there are so many people and even so many supposed healthcare professional thinking these things, maybe we should figure out what their thought process is, instead of just saying they're dumb and should take the vaccine21:07
LjLwe can either make the vaccine mandatory, which imo has strong ethical issues, and have riots... or we can convince people. if we don't know why people are unconvinced, we're unlikely to convince them21:08
ArsaneritLjL: makes sense21:08
ArsaneritApparently in Germany 75% of adults are vaccinated with at least one dose, and of the rest 40% certainly doesn't want to take the vaccine, whereas 60% either wants it or isn't sure.  If the unsure ones can be convinced that would mean 90% of adults are accepting to be vaccinated.  That's probably as high as will realistically happen and doesn't strike me as a poor rate.21:09
LjLunfortunately it still wouldn't give us herd immunity, but at this point not even 100% will21:11
nixonixhttps://twitter.com/Brigitt49577118/status/142432134348342886521:11
LjLi think even 85% is wrong. the virus freely circulates among the vaccinated.21:13
nixonixin finland, our national broadcasting system had until early june a tracker that showed the 1st dose prevalence, updated daily, and a date when "we will reach the herd immunity", which was based on 70% 1st dose prevalence21:13
LjLwe don't have that but they are very triumphant about reaching 70% by September21:13
nixonixand it varied between mid june and mid august, depending when you checked it, estimated doses for the next week and the recent rate21:13
LjLItaly's vaccination rates seem higher now than the EU average. not sure if it's mostly due to Eastern countries having more anti-vax... but Germany is also a few points behind us now i think21:14
BrainstormNew from COVID Zotero group: COVID-19 in Iceland: Vaccination Has Not Led to Herd Immunity, Says Chief Epidemiologist: Type Blog Post URL https://www.icelandreview.com/society/covid-19-in-iceland-vaccination-has-not-led-to-herd-immunity-says-chief-epidemiologist/ Date 2021-08-03T11:41:47+00:00 Accessed 2021-08-08 19:12:25 Language en-US Abstract While [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/KG2Db121:14
LjLi'd have expected the opposite, because Italy basically "stops" in August traditionally21:14
nixonixthen some people took snapshots and linked them in social media and forums, me included, making fun of it. they removed it in june with a notice that more would be needed for herd immunity than previously thought...21:14
ArsaneritIf the virus circulates freely among the vaccinated, then what should be the next steps?21:14
LjLArsanerit, a variant-specific vaccine21:15
LjLwe need to address Delta, and quickly imo21:15
ArsaneritA nasal vaccine that would stop not only symptoms but also infections?21:16
LjLhttps://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&facet=none&pickerSort=asc&pickerMetric=location&Metric=Vaccine+doses&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=European+Union~ITA~DEU~FRA~ESP~POL  i won't talk about Poland, but why is Germany doing so relatively badly now?21:17
LjLArsanerit, that too21:17
dTalif a virus circulated freely among the vaccinated... they're not vaccinated are they21:17
LjLArsanerit, but my sensation is that the vaccine *did* largely stop infections when it was the original variant21:17
nixonixbtw, i calculated the cheaters who have got more than their share of (read: more than finland per capita) mrna vaccines. cheaters in this order: denmark, belgium, france, spain, netherlands. germany or italy didnt cheat (i reduced az and jnj, which explained)21:18
LjLdTal, they're clearly not vaccinated against that exact virus. which we know, because it has factually changed. i'm not sure i care about the semantics of that...21:18
ArsaneritLjL: I read that Südtirol (Alto Adige) has some of the lowest vaccination rates in Italy, and that this is blamed on people reading German alternative media online.21:18
LjLArsanerit, uhm, i heard about it, i didn't hear any theories on why that was though21:18
nixonixdenmark bought them from some eastern europe way back - and possibly got more straight from pfizer whose representatives they met in israel, but im not sure of the latter. why those other countries got more, i have no information21:18
ArsaneritGermany has relatively well-organised groups of anti-vaxxers sadly.21:19
LjLalso you can call it South Tyrol in English and that works without needing double language for political correctness ;P21:19
dTalLjL: right of course we're on the same page about the facts, I just think it's a worthwhile way of framing the facts. At this point, vaccine escape is a reality and we can no longer consider the vaccinated as such21:19
ArsaneritI don't know the English names of most Italian regions or provinces.21:19
nixonixfinland is going to buy some from romania and bulgaria, but its not much. they prob sell other countries more, when we seem to lag behind, i dont expect it to change (the difference is way bigger than those 200k we are going to buy, anyway)21:20
ArsaneritFor example, I was in Veneto, no clue if that has an English name.21:20
LjLdTal, i guess. i (very) indirectly know someone who now has loss of smell/taste, and they're vaccinated, but with J&J21:20
dTalso many public health measures treat vaccinated people differently on the assumption that they cannot be carriers of the virus21:20
nixonixeither germanys extra pfizer doses are not included in those owid datas, or they havent got them yet21:20
LjLdTal, well you won't find many people here in favor of the green pass i think. i might be the most "in favor" and i'm really quite neutral with a double dose of skepticism21:21
ArsaneritGermany has plenty of BioNTech doses now (I think Comirnaty in Germany are all BioNTech-made, Pfizer is not involved)21:21
nixonixso they are not included in owids data then21:21
LjLOWID counts doses *administered*, not doses *available*21:21
nixonixusa (who has wasted over 1M due to expiration), has 25M extra doses. aussies are currently asking them for themselves21:22
LjLi'm afraid a third / variant-specific dose will have much lower uptake than the first two21:23
LjLpeople who were "vaccine-skeptical" yet got it anyway will be like "seriously? they said those two doses would stop it! no more!"21:23
ArsaneritI don't suppose Australia is eligible to get from Covax, which is where Germany is donating all its Vaxzevria doses now.21:23
nixonixbut unless they are getting a lot more quick they prob want to use them for kids and immunocompromsied, both expected to be approved within next 2 weeks21:23
nixonixaussies have extra az currently, i think. ppl dont like it there21:24
nixonixthey havent released the administered doses by brand, i just checked their govt latest vaccine updates21:25
ArsaneritWhy is Australia vaccine uptake so low?21:25
LjLthey probably didn't see it as a big priority when the virus almost wasn't circulating21:26
ArsaneritCan they still not get enough Spixevax or Comirnaty?21:26
LjLwhich is silly, but...21:26
nixonixthey were supposed to have their own molecular clamp vaccine, but it gave false hiv test positives21:26
Arsanerit*Spikevax21:26
nixonixand they were supposed to be manufacturing az, not sure if they have yet. they didnt order mrna vaccines first, or if they did, not enough21:26
ArsaneritOk.21:27
nixonixbut in couple of months, they should be getting way more mrna, if i recall. not sure which one or both21:28
nixonix.title https://www.health.gov.au/resources/publications/covid-19-vaccine-rollout-update-8-august-202121:29
Brainstormnixonix: From www.health.gov.au: COVID-19 vaccine rollout update – 8 August 2021 | Australian Government Department of Health21:29
Arsaneritapparently similar in NZ21:30
nixonixwas it that bloodwork comment by nazzarro?21:31
BrainstormUpdates for France: +28589 cases (now 6.3 million) since 21 hours ago — Germany: +2705 cases (now 3.8 million), +9 deaths (now 92281) since 23 hours ago21:39
LjLmore nonsense comments: "offer people an option other than a mRNA vax, like Novavax (standard type of vaccine like hepatitis or meningitis vax)" ← standards? synthetic protein vaccines are standard?21:41
dTalit's "more standard" sure21:45
dTalhttps://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/06/novavax-now-best-covid-19-vaccine/619276/21:45
generathat brainstorm number fpr germany seems off21:46
dTalthe relevant bit is: "The protein-subunit approach used by Novavax was first implemented for the hepatitis B vaccine, which has been used in the U.S. since 1986. The pertussis vaccine, which is required for almost all children in U.S. public schools, is also made this way. Some of those people who have been wary of getting the mRNA vaccines may find Novavax more appealing."21:47
ArsaneritIs there evidence that vaccine skeptics are less skepticas of Novavax than of mRNA vaccines?21:47
nixonixflublok for influenza, not sure if it used synthetic proteins though, but does novavax, or harevested from moth cells, wasnt it21:47
dTalArsanerit: LjL literally just quoted a comment from someone21:48
ArsaneritThat's not evidence.21:48
nixonixtoo bad flublok, as an unadjuvanted vaccine sucks for ab maturation (according to some study)21:48
nixonixIt is of note that Flublok – the only licensed recombinant influenza vaccine –does not contain an adjuvant, but it does contain three times as much of each haemagglutinin (45 μg) as Aggripal (15 μg) which is the Seqirus (formerly CSL/Novartis) unadjuvanted egg-derived inactivated virus influenza vaccine21:49
LjLdTal, fair enough21:49
ArsaneritLjL quoted an opinion.21:49
LjLi thought it was a novel approach as well21:49
ArsaneritEvidence would be surveys or actual uptake.21:49
dTalIt's evidence.21:49
dTalIt may not be conclusive evidence of a wider trend, but it's evidence nonetheless.21:50
LjLwhat are the advantages of injecting mRNA and making our body produce the S-protein over making the S-protein and injecting it?21:50
nixonixwhat ive read some antivaxer or novaxer comments, first they wanted sputnik. after i told them it was mrna vaccine too (exp different delivery to cells), they seemed to want traditional whole virus vaccines from china21:50
dTalLjL, I think you end up making a lot more spike proteins for longer21:51
nixonixdidnt help when told that sars1 vaccine studies showed its N-protein is dangerous to use in vaccines, and so is prob N of sars221:51
LjLhmm we were talking earlier about how long we might be producing the proteins for and didn't quite seem to agree since it's like "between 72h and 2 weeks depending who you ask"21:51
LjLbut i suppose21:51
dTalactually I think the real answer is it's way cheaper and easier to scale21:52
LjLnixonix, i also like to mention, especially now given the breakthrough infections, that if you only vaccinated with the S-protein, you can detect actual COVID infection by looking at non-S antibodies21:52
ArsaneritI don't know any hardcore antivaxxers, but I have one colleague who doesn't want to use the vaccine as long as it receives only emergency and not final approval and who is worried about under-researched long-term side effects.  Otherwise I only know people who afaik have been vaccinated or are waiting to be.21:52
LjLdTal, i wonder if the EU finalizing an agreement with Novavax really means they've figured out how to produce it at scale21:53
LjLArsanerit, technically, in the EU, the vaccines don't have emergency approval, they have conditional market approval, which the EMA likes to point out is different21:53
nixonixthey should try those mrna vaccines with some type of adjuvant. just a bit to see if it allowed longer b-cell maturation in germinal centers. if it works, then just adjust, the amount of mrna, adjuvant, and its type21:53
nixonixand there you have, longer protection for severe symptoms21:54
nixonixand for old and immunocompromised21:54
LjLhttps://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/marketing-authorisation/conditional-marketing-authorisation#distinction-from-authorisation-under-exceptional-circumstances-section21:54
nixonixits about cytokine profile, and if it goes like with flu vaccines, those oil-in-water adjuvants should work. maybe saponin too, who knows, but it will take a long time to see unless novavax test it and publishes data21:55
ArsaneritLjL: Thanks, I wasn't aware of this technical difference.  I hope my colleague and others thinking like him will at some point accept one of the vaccines.21:55
nixonixbecause it will arrive 2022, then wait for several months to see if protection wanes fast or not...21:55
nixonixobviously harvested, since they were missing bioreactor bags. but there was some interesting vaccine in development, but not recent information, i was planning to link here. the company name was biogen something i think, but i have a million urls in history with biogen22:08
nixonix"Such age-related defects in B cell responses to vaccination have been attributed to a combination of B cell intrinsic senescence and defective T follicular helper cells (Tfh) in germinal centres"22:14
nixonixnot related directly, but since theres plenty of b-cells after 2nd dose, obviously it somehow either hurts or inactivates them or gets them to leave germinal centers. mechanism not known naturally, or even if its Tfh or not, the reason22:16
nixonix.title https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.30.446322v1.full22:18
Brainstormnixonix: From www.biorxiv.org: SARS-CoV-2-specific memory B cells can persist in the elderly despite loss of neutralising antibodies | bioRxiv22:18
nixonixlong term side effects? theres never been vaccines whose side effects havent been appeared within 6-8 weeks or so22:21
nixonixsome of them have not been found necessarily in that time, because they have been so rare. but they have appeared within that time22:22
nixonixits really getting old that too fast approved argument, when hundreds of million ppl vaccinated by any western approved vacc...22:24
nixonix"we are developing a dual-antigen human adenovirus serotype 5 (Ad5) platform-based vaccine that delivers both a spike protein with a linker to increase cell surface expression and humoral responses (S-Fusion) and the highly antigenic and conserved nucleocapsid (N) protein with a signal sequence (an Enhanced T-cell Stimulation Domain, ETSD) to22:36
nixonixdirect it to subcellular compartments that enhance MHC I and II responses22:36
LjLnixonix, who is developing that? also why? didn't you just say the N protein could be dangerous?22:36
nixonixkinda like superantigen. ub-612 had something similar, if i recall22:37
nixonixyeah. maybe not a good idea to use the whole N, but obviously not all the ppl think it isnt22:37
nixonixthere are no facts. outside of some math and logic. never read an article saying they are going to tell you facts (unless about math)22:38
nixonixthats about that vaccine i mentioned above. found that shameless shilling in their study on SA variant. but here's their article on that vaccine:22:40
nixonix.title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.05.21254940v1.full22:40
Brainstormnixonix: From www.medrxiv.org: Single Prime hAd5 Spike (S) + Nucleocapsid (N) Dual Antigen Vaccination of Healthy Volunteers Induces a Ten-Fold Increase in Mean S- and N- T-Cell Responses Equivalent to T-Cell Responses from [...]22:40
specingWhat's with everyone using ad5/ad26?22:44
LjLnixonix, they have a newer version of that paper fyi https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.05.21254940v222:48
nixonixthey have platforms ready using those as a viral vectors22:48
nixonixok ty22:48
nixonixthey can also use to produce therapeutic proteins, like decoy versions of ace222:51
nixonixbe used22:51
nixonix.title https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-91809-922:53
Brainstormnixonix: From www.nature.com: An ACE2 Triple Decoy that neutralizes SARS-CoV-2 shows enhanced affinity for virus variants | Scientific Reports22:53
nixonixwinners of the 1st gen vaccines have been resolved. pfizer, moderna, az and couple chinese vaccinations. the next race is more diversed, first better and more lasting protection for this indian variant, then generally long lasting protection (its either about t-cells or b-cell maturation, im betting on the latter currently), and then universal22:58
nixonixbetacoronavirus vacc22:58
nixonix*vaccines22:58
specingyou forgot sputnik22:58
nixonixwell..22:58
BrainstormNew from COVID Zotero group: An ACE2 Triple Decoy that neutralizes SARS-CoV-2 shows enhanced affinity for virus variants: Type Journal Article Author Shiho Tanaka Author Gard Nelson Author C. Anders Olson Author Oleksandr Buzko Author Wendy Higashide Author Annie Shin Author Marcos Gonzalez Author Justin Taft Author Roosheel Patel Author Sofija Buta [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/9N2w1022:58
nixonixdont get me wrong, it may well be good for severe symptoms, perhaps better than those couple chinese. but they have production problem, and also they cant get it approved in the west23:00
nixonixdo we have somewhat reliable information on its efficacy? sputnik. 2 vectors, so it could be better than az23:01
LjLcan't, or won't?23:01
nixonixboth23:02
LjLi find "Russia's Sputnik V shot around 90% effective against Delta variant, developers say" which is just so unlikely23:04
nixonixoh yeah theres a third approach, N or whole virus. but chinese whole virus vaccine wasnt that good, so maybe its not the solution for lasting protection23:05
LjLThe Gamaleya Institute did not publish any additional data in its response to the scientists’ claims. It stated that it will only make full data available upon the study’s completion and only if certain stakeholders approve, including what the opposing scientists described as “a so-called security department.”23:07
LjLhttps://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/analysis/sputnik-v-controversy-still-no-raw-data/23:07
nixonixwas that above all on efficacy in wiki? (wikis on chinese vaccines had good efficacy information, from brazil, turkey, indonesia etc - so if thers nothing else on sputnik, its prob all we have...23:07
specingLjL: 90% against symptomatic,hospitalisation or ..?23:08
nixonixusually its symptomatic, if nothing else is said23:08
specingok23:09
LjLspecing, if only i hadn't "reached my article limit" on Reuters, i could get to know23:09
LjLhttps://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/russias-sputnik-v-vaccine-less-effective-against-delta-variant-tass-2021-06-29/23:09
specinglol23:09
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Zotero / COVID links Group / Top-Level Items: Sputnik V controversy: Still no raw data ( https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/9GUF7R2H )23:09
specingAZ is 81% against alpha and 61% against delta23:09
specingsymptomatic23:09
LjLhence finding 90% unlikely. that's the ballpark for hospitalization maybe23:09
nixonixreuters... its either cookies or local storage data needs to be deleted (ctrl-sh-I in firefox)23:10
specingso if sputnik is 95% against alpha(or so they claim?) then it could be 90 %against delta?23:10
specingHow much of that effectivenss drop comes from resistance to viral vector?23:10
nixonixreuters was local storage i think, and bloomberg was cookies23:11
LjLthe "Effectiveness" section about Sputnik on Wikipedia is *so* short23:11
LjLspecing, i thought they claimed 91% or so23:11
LjLagainst... whatever they had at the time. probably before Alpha?23:11
nixonixusing archive is another way. but deleting local storage is faster23:11
LjL"On 21 January 2021, Argentine president Alberto Fernández became the first Latin American leader to be inoculated with Sputnik V, shortly after it was approved for use in the country.[167][168] Two months after being vaccinated he suffered fever and headache, and tested positive for COVID-19.[169]" ← nice publicity!23:13
specinglol23:13
nixonix92% vs original and 90% vs delta... they dont even try23:13
LjLso many countries are using it, anyway23:14
LjLit seems surreal that there is no third-party efficacy assessment23:14
LjLwas "don't make an assessment" part of the contract? :P23:14
nixonixit could be ok vs severe, perhaps its even better than az23:14
LjLTwo preliminary studies, one from Argentina and one from San Marino, found mostly mild adverse events and no vaccine-associated deaths.[19] Another study carried out in San Marino has concluded a high tolerability profile in the population aged ≥60 years in terms of short-term adverse events following immunization.[182]23:15
LjLthat's basically all that wikipedia has in terms of third-party assessments23:15
LjLi have heard virtually nothing from San Marino23:16
nixonixhttps://twitter.com/a7_FIN_SWE/status/137938353364756480023:16
LjLwhenever i think about San Marino i can't help thinking it feels really weird to have a random town inside Italy that happens to be its own country :D23:17
LjL(don't tell them i called it a "random town" though)23:17
LjLah yeah there was that debacle too23:17
LjLis that the one where allegedly live (adeno)virus was found in it?23:17
LjL"Russia has demanded Slovakia return a batch of Sputnik V vaccines which Slovakia had quality concerns over. Russia says Slovakia breached contract by testing the vaccines in an unaccredited laboratory and accused the country of launching a disinfo campaign against the jab."23:18
nixonixThe official Twitter account of the Sputnik V vaccine said Slovakia’s drug regulator “in violation of existing contract and in an act of sabotage” tested Sputnik V “in a laboratory which is not part of the EU’s Official Medicines Control Laboratory network.”23:18
nixonixSlovakia's health minister has resigned as part of a deal to defuse a political crisis over the purchase of COVID-19 vaccines from Russia23:19
BrainstormNew from COVID Zotero group: Sputnik V controversy: Still no raw data: Type Web Page URL https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/analysis/sputnik-v-controversy-still-no-raw-data/ Accessed 2021-08-08 21:07:46 Language en-GB Abstract Scientists around the world think the published information on Russia’s Sputnik V Covid-19 vaccine may be too good to be [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/ICr6X123:19
nixonixRussia has reportedly asked Slovakia to accept another delivery of Sputnik V23:19
nixonixhttps://twitter.com/K_Sheldrick/status/142312069154134016823:20
LjL"but this time don't you dare test it!"23:20
nixonixits rona humor, it exists here and there during these dark times. kinda danse macabre23:21
nixonix.title https://www.tourism-review.com/vaccine-tourism-in-san-marino-to-boost-the-numbers-news1202823:24
Brainstormnixonix: From www.tourism-review.com: Vaccine Tourism: San Marino Offering Sputnik V Package | .TR23:24
dTalthat's some nerve, having the gall to act like the injured party when you've shipped a load of dodgy vaccines23:26
BrainstormUpdates for North Macedonia: +398 cases (now 158025), +4 deaths (now 5507) since a day ago23:30
nixonixwhat was the 2nd russian vaccine again? there was an article saying russians were getting vaccinated, there was supposed to be either sputnik or that 2nd, but then they were given EpiVacCorona by vector institute23:32
nixonixcovivac was the 2nd23:33
nixonix.title https://meduza.io/en/feature/2021/03/27/sputnik-v-s-ugly-cousin23:35
Brainstormnixonix: From meduza.io: Sputnik V’s ugly cousin Clinical results for Russia’s EpiVacCorona vaccine are finally here, but developers published in an obscure local journal, raising questions and concerns — Meduza23:35
LjLdTal, what'll be next? poisoning someone and then arresting them for going to hospital instead of showing up to the parole officer?23:37
dTalhar23:38
nixonixhere we are, cracking jokes with 2 doses of the top vaccines in shoulder. when even aussies dont have much them, not to mention most of the world. and bulgaria and romania selling some of their doses because ppl dont want them23:43
nixonixthey used to pay thousands in black market, while risking they were fake, in the winter. i wonder whats the current rate23:44
grythere is plenty of astrozeneca in aussie land23:44
nixonixmost dont want it23:44
nixonixeither because of thrombie or because they think its inferior compared to mrna. not sure which ones the main reason23:45
LjLnixonix, wtf... "The Russian vaccine Sputnik V allows us to launch a vaccine tourism campaign. It is possible to vaccinate foreigners who do not live in San Marino and who are not Italian citizens with Sputnik V."23:45
nixonixand how much are they paying again?23:46
LjLas long as you're a foreigner BUT not an italian citizen? get stuffed, honorable Republic of San Merdino!23:46
LjL€5023:46
nixonix1000 and id consider23:46
LjLnixonix, wait no, *you* are paying €5023:51
nixonix.title https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01813-223:51
Brainstormnixonix: From www.nature.com: Mounting evidence suggests Sputnik COVID vaccine is safe and effective23:51
LjLi saw that article23:51
LjLbut i didn't see the mounting evidence23:51
LjLi saw other articles with almost-opposite titles like "skepticism grows" :P23:52
LjLthe paragraph titled "Access to full data" basically says they did *not* give access to full data23:52
LjLbut it's subtle enough that if one just reads the title, they may think they eventually gave it...23:52
nixonixoh, i claimed another day, israel started to vacc 5+ yo. for now they are vaccinating only risk groups that young, but UAE apparently started 3+ yo23:57
LjLlook mama Pfizer, we're doing lower!23:57
LjLlet us get more doses! we'll make some studieses!23:57
nixonixnot sure which brand they use for kids23:57
nixonixChildren in the age group 3-17 years can now be given the Sinopharm vaccine jabs, the UAE's Ministry of Health and Prevention announced23:58
dTalLjL, devils advocate - you can have growing skepticism even in the face of mounting evidence, particularly when everyone's a moron23:58
LjLit wasn't "skepticism grows" anyway, i'm bad at remembering phrasing23:59
LjLi saw something like that while googling for "sputnik v efficacy"23:59
LjLwhich also included the article nixonix linked23:59

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