| nixonix | yet they think its no worry now, because less death due to vaccinations. just not for kids... (first 12-15 yo just got their first doses this week) | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| LjL | %cases finland | 00:00 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: Finland has had 116996 confirmed cases (2.1% of all people) and 997 deaths (0.9% of cases) as of 10 hours ago. 6.2 million tests were done (1.9% positive). 3.8 million were vaccinated (69.1%). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Finland | 00:00 |
| nixonix | .title https://app.hedgeye.com/e/Pv!/a85)rQ/event-long-covid-casts-a-long-shadow some slides in the link, and apparently audio. i saw those slides | 00:00 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From app.hedgeye.com: EVENT | Long COVID Casts A Long Shadow | 00:00 |
| LjL | that's a weird URL | 00:01 |
| LjL | i had to copypate it because my IRC client thinks the ) makes it end | 00:01 |
| nixonix | and also different when the ca - i just saw a link with "." in the end - ses ... god damn it i forgot the rest. im still of the l-theanine | 00:02 |
| nixonix | off | 00:02 |
| nixonix | ... are high but they are doing pretty much nothing. just some regional restrictions on inside gatherings where the most cases are, and bars shut down 11 pm now there | 00:04 |
| nixonix | when in march they closed the bars for 6 weeks on highest prevalence metro area | 00:04 |
| nixonix | .title In this cohort study of 248 persons with MIS-C, MIS-C | 00:05 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix, the command line provided is invalid | 00:05 |
| nixonix | incidence was 5.1 persons per 1 000 000 person-months and 316 persons | 00:05 |
| nixonix | per 1 000 000 SARS-CoV-2 infections in persons younger than 21 years | 00:05 |
| nixonix | sorry | 00:06 |
| nixonix | this damn client, i have to paste them in text file first, then copypaste them there to remove line feeds | 00:06 |
| LjL | %w ympärillä | 00:06 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, ympärillä — → https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ymp%C3%A4rill%C3%A4 | 00:06 |
| nixonix | but hey, whats the share of pediatric MISC-C/PIMS-MS gets myo/pericarditis? | 00:07 |
| nixonix | im comparing to mrna vaccines induced | 00:07 |
| nixonix | (the latter cases are milder though) | 00:07 |
| nixonix | MIS-C | 00:08 |
| LjL | i don't have a clear idea how serious those child syndromes can be | 00:08 |
| nixonix | and PIMS-TS another name, sigh... | 00:08 |
| nixonix | .title https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2780861 - maybe its here | 00:09 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From jamanetwork.com: Incidence of Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome in Children Among US Persons Infected With SARS-CoV-2 | Adolescent Medicine | JAMA Network Open | JAMA Network | 00:09 |
| nixonix | nope it wasnt | 00:10 |
| nixonix | .title https://mobile.twitter.com/DavidSteadson/status/1425847172831002631 - check the thread, also .se link for those som kan svenska prata | 00:11 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From mobile.twitter.com: error parsing title ('NoneType' object has no attribute 'string') | 00:11 |
| nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/DavidSteadson/status/1425847172831002631 | 00:11 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix, the URL could not be loaded | 00:11 |
| nixonix | sweet jesus, what is it now | 00:11 |
| nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/YouAreLobbyLud/status/1426475410032783360 | 00:18 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Dr David Berger, Absurdist Chronicler (@YouAreLobbyLud): "Italy's largest kids hospital. 400% INCREASE IN HOSPITALISATION OF CHILDREN with Delta compared to previous variants. "The age of the sick [...] | 00:18 |
| nixonix | in one of those twitter threats on kids hospitalized, irene tossetti, italian icu doc, commented "its the delta" | 00:24 |
| nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/dgurdasani1/status/1424649260100984837 | 00:24 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Deepti Gurdasani (@dgurdasani1): "1400 hospitalisations with COVID-19/wk in the US, and 278/wk in the UK among children with delta. These are the highest they've been across all waves. Simple [...] | 00:24 |
| nixonix | that has graphs | 00:24 |
| nixonix | .title https://vip.politicsmeanspolitics.com/2021/08/07/poorly-designed-study-minimises-long-covid-in-children/ | 00:31 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From vip.politicsmeanspolitics.com: Poorly designed study minimises long COVID in children. | 00:31 |
| de-facto | that MIS-C incidence above is not with Delta though | 00:32 |
| de-facto | "This cohort study used enhanced surveillance data to identify persons with MIS-C during April to June 2020" | 00:32 |
| nixonix | somebody claims in finnish twitter, that 9 under 10 yo children died in sweden (in finland none). anyone has links to swedish stats for confirming? | 00:34 |
| nixonix | cdc estimated, from data pre delta i think, the IFR for children - but what age - was 1/50k | 00:35 |
| nixonix | yeah everything is pre delta pretty much. do we have 2-4 severity factor, yet to be confirmed, but there are a few studies saying we have. not sure if we have some studies saying its the same, as finnish hc officials are still claiming (their own anecdotal data i think) | 00:37 |
| nixonix | some of those were mixed pre-kent and kent, the latter supposedly around 50% more severe | 00:38 |
| de-facto | how is childrens immune response different to adults? do they even develop antibodies or is it more cellular immune branches and innate immunity? is there a possible threshold for those, e.g. Delta potentially able to overwhelm childrens success in clearing it easily by its much higher replication rates? | 00:38 |
| de-facto | e.g. could Delta deplete their T-cells easier by its much higher replication rates or such? | 00:39 |
| nixonix | i just saw somewhere, was it modernas tests on 12-16 or -18, showing similar ab titers than adults. claimed in tweet or something, didnt confirm | 00:39 |
| nixonix | young adults i suppose, because their titers are higher i think, 18-30 or something, compared to older | 00:40 |
| de-facto | yeah young adults probably are just "better" adults, but children potentially are not small adults they may have fundamentally different immune system reactions in some scenarios | 00:41 |
| de-facto | i dont know enough about pediatric immunology though | 00:42 |
| de-facto | its just what they said in some podcasts i listen to, that children may have fundamentally diferent immune systems in some aspects (without providing the details) | 00:43 |
| nixonix | yeah pre puberty, developing less cellular memory | 00:43 |
| nixonix | which might help them, was hypothecized in that study i linked here | 00:45 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-24938-4 | 00:46 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.nature.com: SARS-CoV-2 specific T cell responses are lower in children and increase with age and time after infection | Nature Communications | 00:46 |
| nixonix | could it be about less class-switching for b-cells too, for kids vs young adults? it matters for non-old vs old, more naive b-cells | 00:47 |
| de-facto | would make sense i guess | 00:52 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.02.429458v2 | 00:56 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.biorxiv.org: Naive human B cells engage the receptor binding domain of SARS-CoV-2, variants of concern, and related sarbecoviruses | bioRxiv | 00:56 |
| LjL | " Poorly designed study minimises long COVID in children" that's a weird headline | 01:19 |
| nixonix | Our results suggest that, even for this high-risk subgroup, the risk of myocarditis from COVID-19 infection is about 5.9 times as great, at a rate of 450 cases per million | 01:28 |
| nixonix | For 12-17 year old females, myocarditis following mRNA COVID-19 vaccination was 1.1 and 9.1 per million following the first and second doses, for a total of 10.2 per million getting vaccinated.4 Risk of myocarditis from COVID-19 infection was nearly 21 times that rate | 01:29 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.23.21260998v1.full | 01:29 |
| nixonix | now i could use information on severities compared, mrna vaccine vs sars2 induced | 01:30 |
| LjL | my fault! | 01:30 |
| nixonix | no it was my mistake yesterday | 01:30 |
| LjL | i meant the .title, i forgot a colon in the code and so it didn't run | 01:30 |
| LjL | .title https://mobile.twitter.com/DavidSteadson/status/1425847172831002631 | 01:31 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From mobile.twitter.com: David Steadson 🇦🇺🇸🇪🇪🇺🌍 (@DavidSteadson): "Sweden's Health Authority data on Mortality and Intensive Care for this age group, assuming ~30% infected (their estimate) gives roughly the same figures [...] | 01:31 |
| nixonix | also how often theres myo/pericarditis in mis-c | 01:31 |
| nixonix | from rona, that is | 01:32 |
| LjL | uhm | 01:33 |
| LjL | excuse my spam for a minute | 01:33 |
| LjL | .title https://mobile.twitter.com/DavidSteadson/status/1425847172831002631 | 01:33 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107913/number-of-coronavirus-deaths-in-sweden-by-age-groups/ | 01:33 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From mobile.twitter.com: David Steadson 🇦🇺🇸🇪🇪🇺🌍 (@DavidSteadson): "Sweden's Health Authority data on Mortality and Intensive Care for this age group, assuming ~30% infected (their estimate) gives roughly the same figures [...] | 01:33 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.statista.com: • Sweden: coronavirus deaths by age | Statista | 01:33 |
| LjL | <Brainstorm> New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Ivory Coast confirms first Ebola case since 1994 → https://is.gd/KKzXlH | 01:36 |
| LjL | RuntimeError: Couldn't load page from mobile.twitter.com (429: Too Many Requests). | 01:37 |
| LjL | ;( | 01:37 |
| nixonix | google sverige dödsfall ikäryhmät något, hjälp | 01:38 |
| nixonix | ah åldersgrupper | 01:43 |
| nixonix | i found a site that had those, but the youngest age group were under 70 yo... | 01:47 |
| LjL | %w ikäryhmä | 01:50 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, ikäryhmä — noun: 1. age group → https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ik%C3%A4ryhm%C3%A4 | 01:50 |
| LjL | %w åldersgrupp | 01:51 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, åldersgrupp — noun: 1. age group (demographic grouping based on age) → https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C3%A5ldersgrupp | 01:51 |
| LjL | nixonix, do you remember when Google had an automatic two-way Google Translate search thing | 01:52 |
| LjL | you typed whatever in english (or your native language, i guess), but you told it to search for that in swedish, then the results were automatically translated back from swedish | 01:52 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.afro.who.int/news/cote-divoire-declares-first-ebola-outbreak-more-25-years | 01:52 |
| LjL | one of the many things google killed | 01:52 |
| LjL | de-facto, i posted it first ;( | 01:53 |
| LjL | that must be why Brainstorm ignores you | 01:53 |
| * de-facto slaps Brainstorm | 01:53 | |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: Do as you wish! | 01:53 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.afro.who.int: Cote d’Ivoire declares first Ebola outbreak in more than 25 years | WHO | Regional Office for Africa | 01:53 |
| de-facto | oh he likes that? | 01:53 |
| nixonix | you guys know those &tbs=qdr:m4,sbd:1 and stuff to put in the end of url? m for months, d, y, w | 01:54 |
| LjL | de-facto, that's his private business! | 01:54 |
| de-facto | lol | 01:54 |
| LjL | nixonix, no, in the url for what, google? | 01:54 |
| nixonix | i googled just the string with mixed languages above, and finally found the site with under 70 yo grouped together. they are hiding their shit... | 01:54 |
| nixonix | try adding it to the url of your google search (do a search first) | 01:55 |
| LjL | %s sverige sanna åldergrupper av covid dödsfaller | 01:55 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, 31.5 hits: https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/contentassets/2dddee08a4ec4c25a0a59aac7aca14f0/utrikesfodda-och-covid-19.pdf (Utrikesfödda och covid-19 - Folkhälsomyndigheten) — https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/coronaviruset/over-10-000-doda-fhms-besked-kommer-att-oka/ (Corona: Över 10 000 döda i Sverige - Expressen) [... want %more?] | 01:55 |
| nixonix | avlidna was used | 01:55 |
| LjL | %w avliden | 01:55 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, avliden — adjective: 1. deceased, dead → https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/avliden | 01:55 |
| LjL | bleh, 13 mars 2020 –15 februari 2021 | 01:56 |
| LjL | nixonix, i've lost track though, why is what Statista has not good enough? because you want a more recent time window for delta? | 01:57 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.socialstyrelsen.se/statistik-och-data/statistik/statistik-om-covid-19/statistik-over-antal-avlidna-i-covid-19/ | 01:57 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.socialstyrelsen.se: Avlidna i covid-19 - Socialstyrelsen | 01:57 |
| nixonix | most of their stuff is behind paywall, and ive heard it criticized. id like to confirm stuff i find there | 01:59 |
| LjL | don't know why .fr but i found https://dc-covid.site.ined.fr/en/data/sweden/ | 01:59 |
| LjL | it has a spreadsheet of deaths day by day and by 10-year age groups | 01:59 |
| nixonix | maybe it was there at folkhälso, i visited there but didnt find | 02:00 |
| LjL | oh lord they have different sites for different browsers https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/smittskydd-beredskap/utbrott/aktuella-utbrott/covid-19/statistik-och-analyser/bekraftade-fall-i-sverige/ | 02:01 |
| de-facto | “It is of immense concern that this outbreak has been declared in Abidjan, a metropolis of more than 4 million people,” said Dr Matshidiso Moeti, World Health Organization (WHO) Regional Director for Africa | 02:01 |
| de-facto | lovely, lets hope they wont get other cases after that one traveler from Guinea | 02:01 |
| LjL | :\ | 02:02 |
| de-facto | "WHO is helping to coordinate cross-border Ebola response activities and 5000 Ebola vaccines doses which the organization helped secure to fight the outbreak in Guinea are now being transferred to Cote d’Ivoire, following an agreement between the ministries of health of Cote d’Ivoire and Guinea. An aircraft is departing Abidjan soon to collect the vaccines which will be used to vaccinate people at high risk, including health workers, fi | 02:03 |
| de-facto | rst responders and contacts of confirmed cases." | 02:03 |
| nixonix | we had a case of h5n1 a few months ago. in a bird | 02:04 |
| de-facto | lets really hope they contain that there, because EVD got a IFR of 25%-90% | 02:04 |
| nixonix | kills 60% if it infects you. im not touching dead birds... | 02:05 |
| LjL | de-facto, so they expect more cases, if they're hurriedly giving them their vaccines... | 02:06 |
| LjL | "them their" is confusing in english | 02:06 |
| LjL | ge dem sina vacciner, ge dem deras vacciner | 02:06 |
| LjL | mycket bättre | 02:06 |
| nixonix | in one of those slides there was bar chart for different symptoms of lc that a vaccination reduced. the effect wasnt huge | 02:08 |
| de-facto | yeah i mean she was traveling there, probably got a lot of contacts | 02:08 |
| de-facto | it always starts with traveling... | 02:08 |
| nixonix | are there ideas about the mechanism, vaccination helping for lc? | 02:09 |
| nixonix | if its about autoantibodies, the those symptoms that vaccination might help | 02:10 |
| LjL | i'm not even sure we know that it does help apart from anecdotes | 02:10 |
| LjL | but i guess if you have a bar chart, that's more than anecdotal | 02:11 |
| LjL | ask Brainstorm to tell me which one it is | 02:11 |
| nixonix | some have claimed it took the symptoms away, some said it took or reduced them for a month or so | 02:11 |
| nixonix | the slides in the link above, that i mentioned when linking | 02:11 |
| nixonix | brainstrom link it please | 02:12 |
| nixonix | https://app.hedgeye.com/e/Pv!/a85)rQ/event-long-covid-casts-a-long-shadow | 02:13 |
| LjL | nixonix, page 3, bit of a joke it mentions 99% did not fully recover within 12 weeks... within a facebook page of long covid sufferers, duh | 02:18 |
| LjL | but maybe with the audio i'd know they're making a point about those percentages being specific to their context | 02:18 |
| LjL | yay i'm in the best age group for long covid | 02:22 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.23.21261030v1 | 02:22 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.medrxiv.org: Breakthrough Symptomatic COVID-19 Infections Leading to Long Covid: Report from Long Covid Facebook Group Poll | medRxiv | 02:22 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.medrxiv.org: Breakthrough Symptomatic COVID-19 Infections Leading to Long Covid: Report from Long Covid Facebook Group Poll | medRxiv | 02:22 |
| de-facto | oh hello Brainstorm | 02:22 |
| nixonix | yeah that fb study... | 02:26 |
| nixonix | they defended it in twitter, saying that sure it wasnt representative sample and they were saying it, but it had still value, according to them | 02:26 |
| nixonix | lc is more common among women. or they are reporting it more often | 02:27 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ons-short-report-on-long-covid-22-july-2021 | 02:27 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.gov.uk: ONS: Short report on Long COVID, 22 July 2021 - GOV.UK | 02:27 |
| de-facto | Fig 3 | 02:27 |
| de-facto | "In all age groups the odds of experiencing symptoms for more than 28 days after post-vaccination infection was approximately halved by two vaccinations. Given that vaccinated individuals have a reduced risk of infection overall, this suggests that risk of Long COVID is substantially reduced in individuals who have received double vaccination." | 02:28 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/prevalenceofongoingsymptomsfollowingcoronaviruscovid19infectionintheuk/latest | 02:29 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.ons.gov.uk: Prevalence of ongoing symptoms following coronavirus (COVID-19) infection in the UK - Office for National Statistics | 02:29 |
| nixonix | didnt have much interesting imo | 02:29 |
| LjL | hmm the vaccine effect looks small in those slides | 02:30 |
| LjL | although the "matched timepoint" cohort looks quite different in the first place | 02:30 |
| LjL | unless i'm missing something | 02:30 |
| nixonix | i think it was pretty close with the age group of -69, if i recall. but maybe those in the upper echelon of it, less common, so it would be most prevalent among 30-60, 35-55 or something | 02:37 |
| nixonix | less symptoms with those under 30, but what would explain less symptoms with old. difference in immune system, antibodies, cellular or perhaps innate | 02:38 |
| nixonix | *cell-mediated | 02:38 |
| LjL | it also mentions it could be due to the survivor bias, i.e. the people who have a bad enough COVID to get Long COVID, if they're old enough, they just die | 02:39 |
| nixonix | depends on symptoms i guess, but the most common reason for it | 02:39 |
| LjL | i'm ever more convinced i just don't want to get covid, but with the vaccines working the way they work, i don't know what more i can do to avoid it | 02:40 |
| de-facto | i am not sure if severe progression is required for long covid though | 02:40 |
| nixonix | wasnt it somethign like 15% of those over 80, and usually in the upper end of it too, so it doesnt affect that much (them dying) | 02:40 |
| LjL | de-facto, these slides seem to mostly say that it affects people who have severe covid, aiui. but yeah, this hypothesis doesn't hold much water if even mild cases can have it at the same rate | 02:41 |
| LjL | it also says something i didn't know i.e. that walking speed is a good proxy for mortality, and we always notice that my dad walks much slower than my mom :( and also i walk kinda slower than my mom now... | 02:42 |
| de-facto | i think one of the problems here is the long COVID being used as umbrella term, it probably would have to be differentiated into sub-categories emerging from distinct causes | 02:42 |
| de-facto | so your mom is really fast walker then :) | 02:43 |
| nixonix | im personally more interested in actual damage than perceived symptoms. and especially damage that is hard to diagnose, like in brains, telomeres etc. those are mostly forgotten when media or hc officials talk about long covid | 02:43 |
| de-facto | what if it triggers the immune system to constantly attack some parts that get inflamed and causes by that the long lasting symptoms? | 02:44 |
| de-facto | i suspect something like that behind those brain fog thingies | 02:44 |
| nixonix | kidney, pancreatic beta-cells, other organs. stuff that can get damaged for lot of people, but only later in life affect | 02:44 |
| nixonix | yeah, could be autoantibodies attacking some receptors like with pandemrix induced narcolepsy (and h1n1 itself too, with the same N protein) | 02:46 |
| de-facto | i think i read something about epitope similarity between some parts of sars-cov-2 and brain cells surface | 02:47 |
| lastshell | Ljl walking fast is a great exercise | 02:49 |
| LjL | influenza N protein is unrelated to coronavirus N protein, right? | 02:51 |
| nixonix | i dont know much about influenza, how similar or different it is | 02:53 |
| LjL | my googling seems to indicate the only commonality is they start with an N | 02:54 |
| nixonix | i just wondered where structural, non-structural and accessory proteins are synthesized with sars2. anyone knows? | 02:54 |
| nixonix | is it in nucleus like they proved with influenza, or cytoplasm, perhaps in vesicles | 02:54 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-020-00458-y | 02:56 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.nature.com: Do cross-reactive antibodies cause neuropathology in COVID-19? | Nature Reviews Immunology | 02:56 |
| nixonix | no, in cytoplasm, but the mrna synthesis from viral rna, that is | 02:56 |
| nixonix | so does rna go to nucleus with sars2 or not | 02:57 |
| de-facto | i dont think so | 02:57 |
| de-facto | it was one of its advantages that it can be directly translated | 02:57 |
| LjL | it says on wikipedia that influenza A is negative-sense RNA. does that mean it's more similar to DNA in the way it gets transcribed? | 02:57 |
| LjL | it says that's unusual for viruses | 02:58 |
| LjL | so if it's more like DNA then maybe that's why it gets copied in the nucleus | 02:58 |
| nixonix | if it does, if you somehow have reverse transcriptase, from another (untreated) virus or with bad luck from retrotransposons, it might alter infected cells dna | 02:59 |
| nixonix | The subcellular site/s of coronavirus RNA replication and transcription in the cytoplasm of infected cells is not fully defined, but thought to involve so-called “double-membrane vesicles” (DMV) in or on, which the virus replication complex synthesize the needed double and single stranded full length genomic and subgenomic RNAs | 03:02 |
| nixonix | While it is still unclear whether this RNA synthesis takes place inside or on the outside of these vesicles, it is thought that the membranes somehow “protect” the synthesized RNA, including double stranded RNA, from host cell recognition and response, and also from experimental exposure to RNase | 03:02 |
| nixonix | that wasnt very recent though | 03:02 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19883-7 | 03:03 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.nature.com: SARS-CoV-2 genomic and subgenomic RNAs in diagnostic samples are not an indicator of active replication | Nature Communications | 03:03 |
| nixonix | brainstrom, what kind of immunotherapies there are for other diseases? | 03:10 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.12.21261952v1 <-- hmm this might mean we really need updates to our outdated Wuhan-Hu-1 spike signatures in the vaccines | 03:10 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.medrxiv.org: DECREASED BREADTH OF THE ANTIBODY RESPONSE TO THE SPIKE PROTEIN OF SARS-CoV-2 AFTER VACCINATION | medRxiv | 03:11 |
| nixonix | emergence of multiple post-COVID-19 neurological abnormalities including fatigue or movement disorders are strikingly reminiscent of ‘encephalitis lethargica’, a severe unexplained brain disease that affected more than one million individuals during the 1918 ‘Spanish flu’ | 03:13 |
| de-facto | but how does that fit together with Delta protection increasing a lot only after booster (compared to primer)? | 03:13 |
| nixonix | a finnish researcher starting to research lc described, some of them cant drive car, and for some it may be permanent | 03:14 |
| de-facto | their argument makes sense though, we need more diversity in antibody affinity not less | 03:15 |
| nixonix | i just had a look on abstract, but decreased breath vs quantity from booster (while also stopping the affinity maturing) | 03:16 |
| himesama | that is nothign surprising --- 18:14 <nixonix> a finnish researcher starting to research lc described, some of them cant drive car, and for some it may be permanent | 03:16 |
| de-facto | but then how does that fit with boosting looking like a breakthrough hence antibodies should diversify more | 03:16 |
| nixonix | breadth | 03:16 |
| nixonix | do they in breakthrough, with the same variant? | 03:17 |
| LjL | i don't know the answer to these rather technical things, but i think a booster with the original vaccine can only be a stopgap measure at best | 03:18 |
| LjL | %title https://www.example.com/ | 03:19 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From www.example.com: Example Domain | 03:19 |
| LjL | %title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.12.21261952v1 | 03:20 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From www.medrxiv.org: DECREASED BREADTH OF THE ANTIBODY RESPONSE TO THE SPIKE PROTEIN OF SARS-CoV-2 AFTER VACCINATION | medRxiv | 03:20 |
| LjL | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.12.21261952v1 | 03:20 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From www.medrxiv.org: DECREASED BREADTH OF THE ANTIBODY RESPONSE TO THE SPIKE PROTEIN OF SARS-CoV-2 AFTER VACCINATION | medRxiv | 03:20 |
| LjL | oh lord, . causes double post in ##coronalinks... did it even do that before i "fixed" it now? | 03:20 |
| LjL | well, yes, it did | 03:22 |
| nixonix | booster immunization with ChAd resulted in antibody titers that were similar to those generated in response to the booster immunization with Moderna or to the patient cohorts of 2020 and 2021, but still lower than the titers generated in response to the booster immunization with BNT | 03:25 |
| nixonix | whatwhat, pfizer better again? | 03:25 |
| LjL | i think we can *barely* say how good these vaccines are when we look at how much they prevent actual infections in actual people | 03:27 |
| LjL | studying antibody titers in vitro... i won't say it's useless, but it's probably useless for me to try to understand the implications | 03:27 |
| LjL | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.12.21261952v1 | 03:28 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From www.medrxiv.org: DECREASED BREADTH OF THE ANTIBODY RESPONSE TO THE SPIKE PROTEIN OF SARS-CoV-2 AFTER VACCINATION | medRxiv | 03:28 |
| LjL | bah now it doesn't post it even once -.- | 03:28 |
| nixonix | there can be differencies with cell-mediated response of bnt and moderna, and probably are | 03:28 |
| nixonix | but theres some evidence that ab titers may be higher with pfizer (they were previously infected ppl though). the same lab and ppl making analysis prob, so comparable | 03:29 |
| nixonix | now the cell-mediated response differencies, that would be interesting. maybe some interferon comparison would be enough | 03:30 |
| nixonix | i think in israel they stopped giving 2 doses for recovered patients. how about in other countries? | 03:37 |
| nixonix | early on, in march or something | 03:37 |
| nixonix | the second dose did not result in further increases in the antibody titer and had the negative counterpart of reducing the relative reactivity of the antibodies with the B-1-1-7 VOC. | 03:40 |
| nixonix | Indeed, such loss of breadth was already detected as soon as 15 days after the first dose of vaccine, when the antibody titer against the Wuhan-1 strain had not yet increased significantly | 03:41 |
| EricofAZ | g'day | 03:41 |
| EricofAZ | this is Evolver's channel? | 03:41 |
| nixonix | arizona or astrazeneca? | 03:41 |
| EricofAZ | Arizona | 03:42 |
| nixonix | bummer | 03:42 |
| EricofAZ | :P | 03:42 |
| nixonix | this is ljl's chan | 03:42 |
| EricofAZ | I thought I saw evolver as an op here the other day | 03:42 |
| EricofAZ | evolver had freenode ##cov | 03:42 |
| himesama | how do you measure the breadth of an ab? | 03:43 |
| EricofAZ | and since freenode impolded, I thought he went here | 03:43 |
| LjL | himesama, i'm actually trying to figure it out from the paper | 03:43 |
| EricofAZ | hi LjL | 03:43 |
| nixonix | maybe they have different pseudoviruses | 03:43 |
| LjL | himesama, i think the idea is you measure the relative efficacy at killing the Wuhan version vs B.1.1.7 or other things, and you extrapolate from that | 03:43 |
| LjL | hi EricofAZ | 03:43 |
| EricofAZ | Is the wuhan version from Hobart Australia? | 03:44 |
| LjL | ? | 03:44 |
| EricofAZ | I think it was 2012 in Hobart that the australians took a strain of covid to Wuhan to study. | 03:44 |
| EricofAZ | not sure the date | 03:45 |
| EricofAZ | that strain may be the same as the wuhan strain | 03:45 |
| EricofAZ | but I only have memories of news I read. I didn't log the websites, sorry. | 03:46 |
| himesama | how many labs worldwide were studying the same virus? | 03:46 |
| EricofAZ | I only came across news that the aussies took it to wuhan. | 03:47 |
| himesama | was there any early case in hobart? | 03:47 |
| EricofAZ | memory is that there was an oubreak in hobart in 2012 ish kinda like sars, but different. closer to what we call sars 2 | 03:47 |
| himesama | so not sequence then? | 03:48 |
| himesama | d | 03:48 |
| EricofAZ | dunno | 03:48 |
| EricofAZ | so I also recall a news article from march of 2020 that the aussies could synthasize the covid and therefore the idea was they could destroy it. I think that article is still on the internet | 03:49 |
| nixonix | ratg13 was supposedly discovered 2012 (if it ever existed) | 03:49 |
| Jbwncster | Why about the lambda variant? | 03:49 |
| himesama | so like smallpox then | 03:49 |
| nixonix | and there was apparently an outbreak near the cave, killin six. in china, not in aus | 03:49 |
| Jbwncster | Covid is not a man made virus | 03:50 |
| LjL | calling that "a strain of covid" is a little misleading | 03:50 |
| LjL | (partly because covid is not a virus, but even aside from that terminological technicality...) | 03:50 |
| himesama | Jbwncster: i don't think anybody here said it was | 03:50 |
| Jbwncster | Just stating a fact | 03:50 |
| EricofAZ | LjL, my understanding is that covid has been around for thousands of years. Some southeast asians have genetics that can deal with covid. | 03:50 |
| LjL | your understanding is wrong | 03:51 |
| Jbwncster | Sars not the covid-19 version | 03:51 |
| EricofAZ | we know that covid in a mild form is responsible for 1/3 of the common cold in USA (if I read right). | 03:51 |
| LjL | no | 03:51 |
| LjL | coronaviruses != covid | 03:51 |
| LjL | COVID-19 is a specific disease caused by SARS-COV-2 | 03:51 |
| EricofAZ | yes, LjL, I understand that covid has changed and sars 2 is covid 19 | 03:52 |
| LjL | that's one coronavirus, among several coronaviruses that infect humans, and... thousands, or whatever, that are in animal reservoirs | 03:52 |
| nixonix | there are two other human common cold betacoronaviruses, hku1 and oc43 | 03:52 |
| EricofAZ | nixo, yeah, several others that are 'common cold' | 03:52 |
| nixonix | but their share of common colds are probably not near 1/3 | 03:52 |
| LjL | "covid has changed" is like you're taking a name that has been created for the SARS-COV-2 virus, which wasn't in humans before, and you're backporting the word to refer to any coronavirus disease | 03:52 |
| EricofAZ | LjL, well, I don't mean to do that. I guess I am speaking generically rather than scientifically | 03:53 |
| nixonix | -"other", since sars2 isnt common cold (as are not other human betacoronaviruses, mers or sars-1) | 03:54 |
| EricofAZ | I'm new here so don't mean to elbow in. | 03:54 |
| LjL | well, it's misleading. if you tell anyone that "covid" has been around for thousands of years, they'll think you're either lying, or everyone else has been lying to them. if the reality you mean is that *coronaviruses* have been around for thousands of years, well, that's fairly different to the layman as well as to the scientist | 03:54 |
| EricofAZ | to me, mers is also a form of covid | 03:54 |
| LjL | okay, except it isn't | 03:54 |
| Jbwncster | Covid-19 is a different strain | 03:54 |
| LjL | we're going to stick to the terms that we've collectively agreed upon | 03:55 |
| nixonix | no, also a from of human betacoronavirus, aka sarbecovirus | 03:55 |
| nixonix | *a form | 03:55 |
| himesama | i think we need more precision as there is already a lot of conusion and contradiction | 03:55 |
| EricofAZ | LjL, let me find the article, I think I have it somewhere. There was a journal article that some SE asians had encountered covid 25000 years ago | 03:55 |
| Jbwncster | Covid-1 | 03:55 |
| Jbwncster | Not 19 | 03:55 |
| EricofAZ | LjL, I'll follow your terms. Need time to get used to them. | 03:56 |
| Jbwncster | Covid 1-18 | 03:56 |
| LjL | they're not "my terms". they're the terms the scientific community uses. the article you said almost certainly didn't say they had encountered "covid". | 03:56 |
| nixonix | covid is short of coronavirus disease. in humans there are alfacoronaviruses and betacoronaviruses. i dont think "covid" was used before sars-cov-2, was it? | 03:57 |
| EricofAZ | ok, I'm looking... only found nipah virus, which is not what I was talking about | 03:57 |
| EricofAZ | covid is a short name of course but some are back applying it to prior coronovirus strains. | 03:58 |
| LjL | nixonix, it is short for that, the WHO created it like that, but it doesn't mean that now every coronavirus disease is "a COVID". linguistically, it could be that way, but it's not the way it's intended to be used | 03:59 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/a-brief-history-of-human-coronaviruses-67600 | 03:59 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.the-scientist.com: A Brief History of Human Coronaviruses | The Scientist Magazine® | 03:59 |
| nixonix | yes, i was not claiming "covid" was used for diseases from other coronaviruses | 04:00 |
| EricofAZ | I'm not a fan of WHO or CDC for their early anti-mask, pro travel recommendations. | 04:00 |
| EricofAZ | well, WHO for the pro travel | 04:00 |
| EricofAZ | I think CDC was not pro travel | 04:01 |
| himesama | there was supposedly 20kya event or events that put genes into some east asians | 04:01 |
| nixonix | i actually changed "covid-19" in finnish wikipedia as "sars-cov-2". they changed it back in a minute, before i added link to that virologist group deciding the name | 04:01 |
| himesama | 20-30kya | 04:01 |
| EricofAZ | ok, it is going to take me a while to find it, but I do recall an article that ancient SE Asians encountered covid and have some genetic changes. Possibly why they fared better that us euro-americans. | 04:04 |
| EricofAZ | by the way, my wife is Thai. I am Italian/English/Dutch. I am 61. We all got covid19 last November and survived. Wife and her boys did well. She was sick for a few days. I was very very wiped out but did not need hospital or reapirator. | 04:05 |
| LjL | nixonix, uh, what, why did you change it? they're two different things (although sure, we use "covid" often to refer to the virus informally) and probably get two different articles | 04:06 |
| LjL | and... yeah, fi.wiki has both pages | 04:06 |
| EricofAZ | I was on a ginger/ginseng/liquorice root / ribivarin / diet since march 20 to infection date of nov 20. It helped a lot. | 04:06 |
| nixonix | covid-19 was used as a name for virus, when the viruses name was decided to be sars-cov-2. the name of the disease it causes, is covid-19. WHO doesnt agree, but its not up to them | 04:07 |
| EricofAZ | Had long haul symptoms. fatigue, anxiety, smell of metalic chalk, taste of salt. Got the pfizer vaccines in april/may 21. Now am symptom free. | 04:07 |
| nixonix | i changed the name of the virus correct | 04:07 |
| himesama | nixonix: i thought the d in covid stands for disease | 04:08 |
| EricofAZ | nixon, yeah, I think the name of the virus and the disease are different. Not sure why | 04:08 |
| nixonix | yep, as i wrote above | 04:08 |
| EricofAZ | so the virus is sars 2, disease cov19? | 04:08 |
| LjL | EricofAZ, glad you're mostly okay. do you think the vaccine sharply changed your lingering symptoms, or did they just slowly fade? | 04:08 |
| LjL | the virus is SARS-CoV-2, the disease is COVID-19, yes | 04:09 |
| nixonix | yeah, but many organizations prefer to use covid-19 for the virus too, not to offend china | 04:09 |
| LjL | but "COVID" without the -19 is just a shorthand for COVID-19. it doesn't refer to other "coronavirus diseases" | 04:09 |
| EricofAZ | LjL, the fading was slow from November 2020 recovery to April 2021 vaccine, very slow. After the second injection May 2020, two weeks after, the drop off was very rapid. | 04:09 |
| LjL | EricofAZ, that's nice to hear. we were looking at some graphs on symptom changes after vaccination earlier. | 04:10 |
| LjL | from the graph, the changes didn't seem huge | 04:10 |
| EricofAZ | LjL, for me, the changes after the second injection were huge. | 04:10 |
| LjL | but there's a lot of confounding factors, the graph of people who had been vaccinated didn't even look very similar to that of people who had not | 04:10 |
| EricofAZ | and it depends on the vaccine. | 04:10 |
| nixonix | i had forgotten, the original name was novel coronavirus 19, ncov-19 | 04:11 |
| EricofAZ | I studied a lot about this vaccine "miracle" for the long haulers and only a few articles identified Pfizer. | 04:11 |
| LjL | EricofAZ, if it was after the second injection, and assuming that's true for most people, then we may have a problem, because various countries decided to only vaccinate people who already had COVID with just one dose | 04:11 |
| nixonix | or temporary name | 04:11 |
| LjL | nixonix, actually, 2019-ncov iirc | 04:11 |
| EricofAZ | nixonix, lol, yeah, "novel" | 04:11 |
| LjL | that was also the original channel name | 04:11 |
| nixonix | i see links in my url history with nCov-19 | 04:12 |
| EricofAZ | LjL, well, there was a lot of controversy about those who had and survived covid if we really needed the vaccine. | 04:12 |
| EricofAZ | But after reading the "long hauler" stories, I decided to do it and glad I did. | 04:13 |
| LjL | i class that as extremely silly controversy | 04:13 |
| LjL | but giving only one shot may have seemed sensible | 04:13 |
| LjL | especially since many who had been infected has stronger side effects from the vaccine, so why give them two doses if one was enough to boost their already-existing immunity | 04:13 |
| LjL | but long COVID does change that picture potentially | 04:13 |
| nixonix | it seems its better to give them one shot. at least for some time | 04:14 |
| Jbwncster | I am glad I got the vaccine | 04:14 |
| nixonix | like i quoted a bit earlier | 04:14 |
| Jbwncster | I’m sad more people in USA aren’t getting it | 04:14 |
| nixonix | around the line where i mentioned "israel" | 04:14 |
| EricofAZ | If you want, I can tell you day to day about covid for me. I recorded every day. | 04:15 |
| LjL | nixonix, in Italy they mostly give J&J to people who had COVID so the issue is automatically sidestepped | 04:15 |
| nixonix | .title https://ijhpr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13584-021-00481-x | 04:19 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From ijhpr.biomedcentral.com: Addressing vaccine hesitancy and access barriers to achieve persistent progress in Israel’s COVID-19 vaccination program | Israel Journal of Health Policy Research | Full Text | 04:19 |
| Jbwncster | LjL: I just heard the phrase California refugee | 04:19 |
| Jbwncster | Because of mask mandates | 04:19 |
| nixonix | isnt it in nyc, and cali is considering following | 04:20 |
| LjL | Jbwncster, refugee as in they go away from california because they don't want the mandate? | 04:20 |
| nixonix | no, it was the pasport thing... | 04:21 |
| Jbwncster | Yes | 04:21 |
| Jbwncster | LjL: they moved to Tennessee | 04:21 |
| Jbwncster | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT6E8KOIAso | 04:21 |
| LjL | bleh, whatever, dumb people. it's that time of the night when i play some 0AD and drink alcohol, meanwhile they can all gather in tennessee and hopefully stay there | 04:23 |
| EricofAZ | Arizona governor is still anti-mask | 04:26 |
| EricofAZ | :( | 04:26 |
| Jbwncster | If I could leave USA I would | 04:27 |
| EricofAZ | LjL, may I intrude and inquire as to what alcohol? | 04:27 |
| nixonix | "Moreover, it will be important to examine whether cross-reactive virus-neutralizing antibodies can also occur after active immunization | 04:27 |
| EricofAZ | Jb, it is easy. Just book a flight and go. I'm giving thought myself to this. | 04:28 |
| Jbwncster | I can’t | 04:28 |
| nixonix | with human proteins, that is. im pretty sure there are many, but mostly just causing discomfort, maybe vertigo and shit, hopefully | 04:28 |
| Jbwncster | Because of money | 04:28 |
| Jbwncster | USA likes to keep people poor | 04:28 |
| EricofAZ | Jb, yes, that is a problem, so figure out how to sandbag money and go. | 04:29 |
| nixonix | the quote was from that ...neuropathology... article defacto posted earlier | 04:29 |
| Jbwncster | EricofAZ: half of my paycheck goes to rent | 04:29 |
| EricofAZ | yeah, it is hard, I understand. Was very broke for a very long time. | 04:29 |
| -Bridgestorm- 🏠 Tranbleman tè! Séisme! Earthquake! 5.9 Mb tremor, registered by EMSC,GEOFON,alomax, occurred 14 minutes ago (03:20:45 UTC), with a gibbous moon, Port-à-Piment, Haiti (18.41, -74.0) likely felt 250 km away (in Jérémie, Les Cayes, Port-à-Piment, Dame Marie, Miragoâne…) by 283100 people (www.seismicportal.eu) | 05:35 | |
| Lyra2021 | hi | 13:39 |
| Lyra2021 | Does anyone have any literature on the effectiveness of the BBIBP-CorV vaccine for Delta clusters | 13:40 |
| Lyra2021 | Can anyone say a word | 14:06 |
| Lyra2021 | （） | 14:06 |
| nyuszika7h | no | 14:21 |
| lastshell | https://www.businessinsider.com/fda-former-scott-gottlieb-says-covid-19-will-become-endemic-2021-8?amp | 14:48 |
| specing | "will become"? Like it isn't already | 14:49 |
| lastshell | yeah is already | 14:49 |
| Arsanerit | I thought endemic means no longer pandemic or epidemic? | 14:51 |
| lastshell | it means it will last forever like the flu | 14:52 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.15.21260621v1 | 16:02 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.medrxiv.org: Antibody and T cell responses to Sinopharm/BBIBP-CorV in naïve and previously infected individuals in Sri Lanka | medRxiv | 16:02 |
| de-facto | Lyra2021, ^^ | 16:02 |
| Lyra2021 | thank u | 16:04 |
| de-facto | Alpha = B.1.1.7, Beta = B.1.351 and Delta = B.1.617.2 | 16:05 |
| Lyra2021 | de-facto yes，i knew that | 16:15 |
| lastshell | https://m.jpost.com/health-science/israel-to-expand-use-of-covid-drug-that-gets-88-percent-of-patients-out-of-hospital-676397 | 16:28 |
| Lyra2021 | de-facto English Wikipedia have mentioned that pre-print study in Sri Lanka aswell | 16:29 |
| Lyra2021 | But it does not directly mention the protection rate of the vaccine（） | 16:29 |
| aradesh | i have heard people suggest that viruses tend over time to reduce in how fatal they are. is this true, or a myth? | 16:31 |
| Lyra2021 | （to everybody）sorry，i live in china and my English is not so well. qvq | 16:32 |
| Jbwncster | https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/politics/2021/08/15/covid-pandemic-federal-aid-renters-landlords/5552227001/ | 16:32 |
| Jbwncster | States aren’t giving out the money for rent assistance fast enough | 16:32 |
| lastshell | aradesh spanish flu is now common cold | 16:32 |
| Jbwncster | No it’s not | 16:33 |
| Jbwncster | https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/567904-border-patrol-seizes-thousands-of-falsified-covid-19-vaccine-cards | 16:33 |
| de-facto | Lyra2021, thats from where i found it :) | 16:33 |
| Jbwncster | Fake vaccine cards | 16:33 |
| aradesh | lastshell: well i'm wondering if it's a general theme, or just something that 'can' happen rather than always happens | 16:33 |
| Lyra2021 | aradesh There is such a saying，but theres no enough evidence | 16:33 |
| lastshell | that is one example in not virologist so i dont know | 16:34 |
| Lyra2021 | lastshell But you are using analogical reasoning，which is not sufficient，right？ | 16:38 |
| lastshell | correct one example is not enought data | 16:38 |
| Jbwncster | People are going to go to jail for falsifying vaccine cards | 16:38 |
| lastshell | thats good ^ | 16:38 |
| Jbwncster | Also a bunch of people on rizon are telling the world they printed their own vaccine card and falsified the info | 16:39 |
| de-facto | the challenge in measuring efficacy is to compare two study arms exposed to exactly the same conditions at the same location/time/demographics/etc, hence the approval trials employing double blinded studies, but then one would have to accumulate enough breakthrough infections in the vaccinated cohort for comparing the attack rate to unvaccinated and therefrom derive vaccine efficacy | 16:40 |
| lastshell | there are also cases that people get 3 jabs falsifing the 2nd shot | 16:41 |
| de-facto | so basically it means tolerating no protection of half of the participants (without them knowing) and then waiting for enough vaccinated to get breakthrough infections | 16:41 |
| lastshell | https://www.wxyz.com/news/7-in-depth/1-2-million-americans-got-unauthorized-3rd-covid-shot-cdc-says | 16:43 |
| Jbwncster | People keep saying that covid isn’t a real emergency | 16:43 |
| Jbwncster | And they keep saying that faking a vaccine on a vaccine card is legal | 16:43 |
| lastshell | yeah, qanon brainwashed people | 16:44 |
| Jbwncster | Like printing an official vaccine card and then faking when they got the shot | 16:44 |
| de-facto | it is illegal and will be punished with up to 5 years prison in Germany | 16:45 |
| Jbwncster | In USA it’s a $5000 fine | 16:49 |
| Jbwncster | And possible jail time | 16:49 |
| lastshell | Is amazing that history sometimes looks like it repeats itself | 16:50 |
| lastshell | https://www.ohiohistory.org/getattachment/learn/collections/history/history-blog/March-2020/SpanishFlu/Graph-1918-flu-(002).png | 16:50 |
| Jbwncster | These people also reject germ theory | 16:51 |
| de-facto | yeah without realizing that such statements are rather about themselves than about their claims | 16:51 |
| lastshell | also people wine and complain about there freedom | 16:53 |
| lastshell | but nothing we can do | 16:53 |
| lastshell | it looks like US is in a 3rd wave | 16:54 |
| Lyra2021 | thats sure | 16:54 |
| de-facto | Lyra2021, i am curious, what vaccines are offered to people in China? and which ones are available in reality? | 16:54 |
| Jbwncster | I wish the feds had more power | 16:55 |
| Jbwncster | We give the states too much power | 16:55 |
| Lyra2021 | In fact, almost all countries are ushering in a new wave | 16:55 |
| lastshell | this is behind paywall :( but I recall has a good list of covid vaccines https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/science/coronavirus-vaccine-tracker.html | 16:56 |
| Lyra2021 | de-facto actually i suggest u to read Wikipedia at Frist to learn about these things（u can use a chrome to translate Chinese Wikipedia to read it） | 16:57 |
| Lyra2021 | in mainland china，mainly theres three types of vaccine to use，from what I know | 16:59 |
| Lyra2021 | oh sorry（） | 17:00 |
| de-facto | which wikipedia article? | 17:01 |
| Lyra2021 | i find theres actually seven types（） | 17:01 |
| Lyra2021 | after reading Wikipedia（） | 17:01 |
| Lyra2021 | de-facto mainarticle：中国大陆2019冠状病毒病疫苗接种计划 | 17:02 |
| Lyra2021 | u can search it in Wikipedia than u will see the block | 17:02 |
| specing | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_mainland_China | 17:03 |
| Lyra2021 | yes | 17:03 |
| Lyra2021 | its the same | 17:03 |
| Lyra2021 | but i suggest u to read Chinese Wikipedia when u are going to learn about something in China，it will be more comprehensive | 17:04 |
| de-facto | interesting, so mainly inactivated SARS-CoV-2 vaccines with adjuvants | 17:06 |
| Lyra2021 | yes | 17:06 |
| de-facto | do you know the reason for that? | 17:07 |
| Lyra2021 | and in mainland china ，most of the people think it will be more reliable than mRNA vaccines | 17:07 |
| Lyra2021 | thats one of the important reason | 17:08 |
| de-facto | interesting | 17:08 |
| de-facto | more reliable in terms of catching antigenic drift ? | 17:09 |
| Lyra2021 | no，they dont considered in that way actually | 17:09 |
| Lyra2021 | Inactivated vaccines have a long history | 17:09 |
| de-facto | ah i see like more the "traditional" way | 17:10 |
| Lyra2021 | They d like to trust in which looks like to be safe in history | 17:10 |
| Lyra2021 | yes | 17:10 |
| de-facto | have there been inactivated coronavirus vaccines in use before? | 17:11 |
| Lyra2021 | no | 17:12 |
| Lyra2021 | but they think its the same to other virus | 17:12 |
| de-facto | afaik there were some in development against SARS-CoV-1 and MERS-CoV, but i am not sure if they also tested inactivated or rather developed those Adenovirus-vector vaccines and later adapted them to SARS-CoV-2 | 17:14 |
| lastshell | https://nypost.com/2021/08/15/tennessee-officials-seize-fake-covid-19-vaccine-cards-from-china/ | 17:15 |
| lastshell | interesting the fake covid vaccine cards are made in china | 17:15 |
| de-facto | i guess one advantage of inactivated virus vaccines could be that they offer a broader range of epitopes for the immune system to attack with antibodies etc, but not all of them may be as neutralizing as blocking the key for cell entry, e.g. s-protein | 17:15 |
| de-facto | but maybe (speculation!) a lower neutralizing efficacy is the price for inducing a more broad immune response, e.g. one that does not decline as much under antigenic drift (variants) | 17:17 |
| Lyra2021 | lastshell maybe，but people in china mainly think that was because someone book it from Chinese factories，so they produced it（actually，i dont knew about this news） | 17:19 |
| Lyra2021 | (but they like to say so in other things) | 17:19 |
| de-facto | yet in the Sri-Lanka paper the binding also decreased significantly for Beta, not so much for Delta | 17:20 |
| de-facto | i wonder if it depends on the exact strain of SARS-CoV-2 they grow in the vero cell lines and then inactivate with beta-propiolacton | 17:21 |
| de-facto | maybe growing several variants of SARS-CoV-2 in parallel in separated cell lines (to account for diversity in growing rates) and then mixing them together in equal parts to inactivate them for the vaccine could give an even broader spectrum of antibody affinity? | 17:22 |
| de-facto | also i wonder, how do they prevent antigentic drift in their cell lines? they should ensure as few serial passes as possible, hence need a super high reproduction on cellular level | 17:24 |
| Lyra2021 | de-facto And，in hk/macao SAR which controlled by PRC de-facto，theres more types of vaccines to choice，includes BNT162 | 17:25 |
| Lyra2021 | I don't know the details，You'd better check it yourself | 17:26 |
| de-facto | yeah i read about Fosun, but are those already available or awaiting approval? | 17:26 |
| Lyra2021 | Let me see | 17:28 |
| de-facto | http://www.nbd.com.cn/articles/2021-06-12/1790842.html | 17:30 |
| Lyra2021 | in HK it is already available | 17:30 |
| Lyra2021 | Vaccination start on March 6, 2021 | 17:31 |
| Lyra2021 | https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/202101/25/P2021012500522.htm | 17:31 |
| de-facto | interesting | 17:36 |
| Lyra2021 | Macao also，but it seems that the article didnt metioned when it start | 17:36 |
| Lyra2021 | https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%BE%B3%E9%96%802019%E5%86%A0%E7%8B%80%E7%97%85%E6%AF%92%E7%97%85%E7%96%AB%E8%8B%97%E6%8E%A5%E7%A8%AE%E8%A8%88%E5%8A%83 | 17:36 |
| Lyra2021 | sorry but it didnt have an English version | 17:37 |
| Lyra2021 | ”截至7月29日下午4时，澳门已接种疫苗剂数为501,061剂，已接种人数共有282,047人，其中仅接种第1剂有61,294人，已接种第2剂有220,753人。在过去24小时，卫生局接获22宗不良事件通报，包括1宗严重不良事件，21宗轻微不良事件（14例为国药灭活疫苗，7例为BNT | 17:38 |
| Lyra2021 | mRNA疫苗）；由开始接种疫苗至今，累计2,146宗不良事件通报，包括7宗严重不良事件，2,139宗轻微不良事件。“ | 17:38 |
| Lyra2021 | ”As of 4 pm on July 29, Macau has received 501,061 doses of vaccines, and a total of 282,047 people have been vaccinated, of which 61,294 people have received only the first dose and 220,753 people have received the second dose. In the past 24 hours, the Health Bureau has received 22 notifications of adverse events, including 1 serious adverse | 17:40 |
| Lyra2021 | event and 21 minor adverse events (14 cases were inactivated vaccines from Sinopharm and 7 cases were BNT mRNA vaccines); since the beginning of vaccination, A total of 2,146 adverse events were notified, including 7 serious adverse events and 2,139 minor adverse events.“（Google Translate） | 17:40 |
| de-facto | i am just curious about this, because it would allow for comparing both vaccine platforms in the same population (hopefully at similar vaccination times) in case of outbreaks that is | 17:43 |
| Lyra2021 | de-facto according to the current vaccination data in Hong Kong and Macao, the adverse reactions of BBIBP-CorV vaccine and CoronaVac vaccine are more than BNT162 | 17:44 |
| Lyra2021 | （i am not very sure but it seems like so） | 17:45 |
| de-facto | the inactivated vaccines also require adjuvants such as aluminium hydroxide | 17:45 |
| Lyra2021 | oh，i dont really knew about that（） | 17:47 |
| de-facto | and i guess it could be quite challenging to purify those virions from debris of the cell lines used for growth, e.g. constituents of those vero cells | 17:47 |
| Lyra2021 | so why do inactivated vaccines require it | 17:47 |
| de-facto | to attract immune cells at the injection site and make them aware of attacking the inactivated virus | 17:48 |
| de-facto | basically concentrating them at injection site | 17:48 |
| Jbwncster | I want all the unvaccinated people to be fined for knowingly transmitting the virus | 17:49 |
| de-facto | what about vaccinated people? | 17:49 |
| Julius_ | Covid-19 is still not existent | 17:49 |
| de-facto | lol | 17:49 |
| Julius_ | Prove me wrong if you can | 17:49 |
| de-facto | open your eyes | 17:49 |
| Julius_ | I do, and I see that in 2020 less people died, not more | 17:50 |
| lastshell | Julius_ you right here we are all reptilians trying to control the world now plese go the chat | 17:50 |
| Julius_ | I also see that there is no scientific proof of existence for Sars-Cov-2 | 17:50 |
| Jbwncster | de-facto: there’s less of a chance of a vaccinated person transmitting the virus but it still can happen | 17:50 |
| Julius_ | If Sars-Cov-2 does not exist, Covid-19 also does not exist | 17:51 |
| de-facto | Julius_, you are a troll | 17:51 |
| Lyra2021 | in fact we didnt vaccinated） | 17:51 |
| Julius_ | I am just stating some facts | 17:51 |
| Jbwncster | Facts my ass | 17:51 |
| lastshell | do we have mod here we need someone to get a kick | 17:51 |
| Lyra2021 | because in mainland china its 农田 | 17:51 |
| Lyra2021 | its not very dangerous | 17:51 |
| Jbwncster | warum erzählst du Fake News? | 17:51 |
| Julius_ | de-facto, a canadian court lately had that problem. They couldnt proof the existence of Sars-Cov-2 | 17:51 |
| Lyra2021 | （sorry） | 17:51 |
| LjL | ban evasion is against Libera policy, although i don't know why i bother to mention it given you steadily do it anyway | 17:52 |
| lastshell | ty LjL | 17:52 |
| Jbwncster | The only German news source I trust is DW | 17:52 |
| Jbwncster | LjL: report it to Jess | 17:52 |
| Jbwncster | In #libera | 17:53 |
| LjL | Jbwncster, i think i did it last time, and she spent some time in this channel, but she's not here no so unless another staffer is, they won't take my word for it in general | 17:53 |
| Jbwncster | Wow | 17:53 |
| Jbwncster | Not even with logs? | 17:53 |
| LjL | also they can't do *so* much, probably. their k-lines are about as broad as my bans | 17:53 |
| Lyra2021 | ”If Sars-Cov-2 does not exist, Covid-19 also does not exist“ | 17:53 |
| LjL | logs could be made up | 17:53 |
| Lyra2021 | This reasoning is not sufficient | 17:54 |
| Jbwncster | SARS-cov-2 is covid | 17:54 |
| Jbwncster | Indian on you better not be Julius | 17:54 |
| Jbwncster | Indoanonw | 17:54 |
| Lyra2021 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_antecedent | 17:54 |
| Lyra2021 | ？u are not talking a same thing to me | 17:55 |
| LjL | Jbwncster, he's not | 17:56 |
| LjL | let's not be paranoid :P | 17:56 |
| Lyra2021 | I just point out the problem of logical structure | 17:56 |
| Lyra2021 | Even if the negation of P is true, it does not mean that the negation of Q is true | 17:56 |
| LjL | Lyra2021, no need to argue this really, Julius is a known troll here, i think we all agree it's nonsense | 17:57 |
| Lyra2021 | okay | 17:57 |
| lastshell | one week old news but is releated with my theory of having a healthy lifestyle https://katv.com/news/local/high-blood-pressure-diabetes-heart-disease-most-common-conditions-behind-covid-19-cases | 17:57 |
| Lyra2021 | i m going to sleep now 被、cause it is midnight | 17:58 |
| Lyra2021 | i m going to sleep now because it is midnight here | 17:58 |
| Lyra2021 | bye | 17:58 |
| lastshell | bye | 17:58 |
| LjL | night | 17:58 |
| de-facto | good night | 17:58 |
| LjL | Lyra2021, by the way, the bot here can translate if you need it | 17:59 |
| LjL | %tr <zh 截至7月29日下午4时，澳门已接种疫苗剂数为501,061剂，已接种人数共有282,047人，其中仅接种第1剂有61,294人，已接种第2剂有220,753人 | 17:59 |
| LjL | oh | 17:59 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Chinese to English: As of 4pm on July 29th, Macau has received 501,061 doses of vaccinations and 282,047 people have been vaccinated, of which 61,294 people have received only the first dose and 220,753 people have received the second dose. (MyMemory) [... want %more?] | 17:59 |
| Jbwncster | How do you convince someone that emergency approval of the vaccine is the same as being approved? | 18:00 |
| LjL | well, it's really not | 18:02 |
| lastshell | sadly is not | 18:02 |
| LjL | i mean, it's a type of approval, so it is "approved" | 18:02 |
| LjL | but it's not equivalent in terms of thoroughness of testing to a normal approval | 18:03 |
| Jbwncster | We already had testing on the same kind of vaccine though | 18:03 |
| LjL | "kind" as in mRNA/adenoviral? | 18:04 |
| Jbwncster | Yes | 18:04 |
| LjL | we didn't really have much human testing afaik (mRNA vaccines had never been used, adenoviral had been used just one), but even so, each vaccine is different. even if they're based on a given platform, they can cause unforeseen reactions | 18:04 |
| Jbwncster | But it shouldn’t stop you from getting it | 18:05 |
| Jbwncster | Either | 18:05 |
| LjL | AstraZeneca blood clots and Pfizer myocarditis both came as surprises *after* the approval, for example | 18:05 |
| LjL | that's not something that ought to happen in normal circumstances | 18:05 |
| LjL | well that's why we have emergency approval in emergency cases | 18:05 |
| LjL | but it's not the same as approval in normal circumstances | 18:05 |
| specing | > (mRNA vaccines had never been used, adenoviral had been used just one) | 18:05 |
| specing | really? What platform do vaccines normally use? | 18:05 |
| LjL | that would be like saying leaving through the window is "approved" because you can do it in a fire emergency | 18:05 |
| specing | inactivated virus? | 18:05 |
| LjL | of course when it's really necessary you'll do it, but it's not the normal thing to do | 18:06 |
| lastshell | desperate times require desperate measures | 18:06 |
| LjL | specing, inactivated, attenuated, and i'm told protein subunit (like Novavax) has had some more use than mRNA/vector | 18:06 |
| Jbwncster | https://news.yahoo.com/federal-government-to-require-vaccines-for-air-rail-travellers-180939538.html | 18:13 |
| Jbwncster | People don’t realize that USA has a national vaccine database and they can search to see if you actually got vaccinated | 18:14 |
| LjL | %points covidnews | 18:15 |
| Brainstorm | covidnews: +3/-0, 3 | 18:15 |
| LjL | not an overwhelming response | 18:15 |
| specing | I see these requirement as slow boiling of frogs | 18:15 |
| specing | instead of making vaccination mandatory they will continue to add more and more restrictions to the unvaccinated | 18:16 |
| specing | making it effectively mandatory | 18:16 |
| LjL | Jbwncster, that article is about Canada though i think | 18:17 |
| Jbwncster | no | 18:17 |
| Jbwncster | Yea | 18:17 |
| Jbwncster | Usa | 18:17 |
| Jbwncster | And canada | 18:17 |
| Jbwncster | It’s both | 18:17 |
| Jbwncster | Amtrak goes to canada | 18:17 |
| LjL | "Transport Minister Omar Alghabra announced Friday ..." the USA doesn't have ministers | 18:18 |
| LjL | %wik Omar Alghabra | 18:18 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, from English Wikipedia: Omar Alghabra PC MP (Arabic: عمر الغبرا, romanized: ʿUmar al-Ḡabrā; born October 24, 1969) is a Canadian politician who has served as the minister of transport since 2021. A member of the Liberal Party, Alghabra has represented the riding of Mississauga Centre in the House of Commons [... want %more?] → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Alghabra | 18:18 |
| LjL | also if you ctrl+f for Canada/Canadian you will see :P | 18:18 |
| LjL | sure, it will apply to cross-border stuff presumably | 18:18 |
| Jbwncster | Well USA needs to mandate | 18:18 |
| Jbwncster | Vaccines for travel | 18:18 |
| Jbwncster | But it won’t because states freedoms | 18:19 |
| lastshell | this is just sad https://www.reuters.com/world/us/children-hospitalized-with-covid-19-us-hits-record-number-2021-08-14/ | 18:21 |
| LjL | nixonix has posted a bunch of stuff about children in the US lately, and it all points in the same direction | 18:23 |
| aradesh | i wonder if the current situation in the UK is handlable in the long term if it doesn't get worse... a lot of cases, but not sure what the level of hospitalisations are. deaths are like 10-20% of what they used to be with this sort of level of cases. | 18:24 |
| aradesh | Jbwncster: when you say the people inn the USA don't realise it, you mean the peolpe who are complaining about vaccine passports being a breach of privacy? | 18:25 |
| Jbwncster | aradesh: yes | 18:26 |
| Jbwncster | It’s not really | 18:26 |
| aradesh | it's pretty funny tos ee these people complaining about their rights being violated | 18:26 |
| Jbwncster | It’s like having a drivers license | 18:26 |
| aradesh | when for the last 30 years they didn't seem to care about government having tons of info on them | 18:26 |
| Jbwncster | It should be connected to their drivers license | 18:26 |
| aradesh | where were people complaining about doctors keeping records? lol | 18:26 |
| lastshell | in sure there is some foreign goverment manipulating some people | 18:27 |
| aradesh | children being hospitalised - is it because the new variant is more harmful to children than the old ones? | 18:28 |
| Lyra202144 | aradesh Is there any hospitalization data for each age group in the United States | 18:31 |
| Jbwncster | https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-daily-death-toll-from-covid-19-almost-doubles-in-two-weeks/ar-AAMrNBT | 18:31 |
| Lyra202144 | This phenomenon has not been found in China so far | 18:31 |
| lastshell | is the delta | 18:32 |
| Lyra202144 | In Jiangsu Province, the elderly hospitalization rate is very high | 18:32 |
| Lyra202144 | it is delta cluster aswell | 18:33 |
| lastshell | also usa diet contains high proceesd food | 18:34 |
| lastshell | kids are not eating healthy | 18:34 |
| Lyra202144 | It may still have to refer to the epidemic situation in other regions to make an accurate judgment. | 18:35 |
| lastshell | for sure | 18:36 |
| aradesh | most places around the world have diets high in process food | 18:38 |
| aradesh | processed | 18:38 |
| aradesh | rice, bread, etc | 18:41 |
| lastshell | https://www.lifespan.org/lifespan-living/link-between-processed-foods-and-cancer | 18:51 |
| lastshell | https://www.webmd.com/cancer/features/cancer-sugar-link | 18:54 |
| lastshell | what I'm trying to imply is healthy food choices have a huge impact in your health | 18:54 |
| lastshell | In the begining of the pandemic was obese people who get more impacted from covid | 18:55 |
| lastshell | btw I have issues trying to sleep I tried valerian root, ashawanda, melatonin but still not able to regulate my sleep | 18:58 |
| lastshell | any recommendation | 18:58 |
| lastshell | will be helpful | 18:58 |
| Jbwncster | Try a covid vaccine | 18:59 |
| lastshell | I'm vaccinated pfizer 2 shots | 18:59 |
| Jbwncster | Good | 18:59 |
| lastshell | in general I sleep 4 to 5 hrs per day | 19:00 |
| lastshell | but they recommend 8 hrs of sleep | 19:00 |
| lastshell | some days I'm lucky and get 7 hrs but those days are very rare | 19:00 |
| Jbwncster | Try drinking tea | 19:00 |
| finely[m] | <lastshell> "btw I have issues trying to..." <- Sleep hygiene, exercise a few hours before bed. 15+ minutes of bright light at the desired time to wake up, might help. Some people have a natural sleep cycle longer or shorter than 24 hours. | 21:47 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1567134821003361 | 23:59 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.sciencedirect.com: Characterization of the emerging B.1.621 variant of interest of SARS-CoV-2 - ScienceDirect | 23:59 |
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