| de-facto | hmm behind paywall | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| de-facto | but here is the preprint https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.08.21256619v2 | 00:01 |
| LjL | i think that's the one that they sequences two of in italy | 00:06 |
| LjL | ah UK, not Italy, but Italy has it too | 00:09 |
| LjL | <Brainstorm> LjL, Italian to English: In the last 45 days, among the lineages not monitored by the COVID-19 Integrated Surveillance System, and identified in I-Co-Gen, 3.74% is represented by VUM (Variant under Monitoring - lineages: B.1.1 .318 and C.16), while 13.26% from VOI (Variant of Interest - lineages: B.1.621, C.37 so-called lambda variant, B.1.620 and P.3). (MyMemory, Google) | 00:09 |
| LjL | <Brainstorm> New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: Impressive and a glimpse into the future. Sequencing #SARSCoV2 in hospitals rapidly identified 2 cases of B.1.621, community transmission in the UK, when 99% of cases were Delta. Done in <24 hrs, instead of 10 days https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00482-5/fulltext@TheLancetInfDis → https://is.gd/pFHD51 | 00:10 |
| rpifan | is it possible that getting infected from the virus and having the antibodies | 00:27 |
| rpifan | provides better protection then the current vaccines? | 00:27 |
| LjL | sure | 00:28 |
| LjL | although so far the best understanding is that disease + vaccine > disease and also > vaccine | 00:29 |
| LjL | disease alone < vaccine | 00:29 |
| rpifan | so i should go get microchipped anyway? | 00:29 |
| LjL | yes | 00:29 |
| LjL | especially if you don't know whether you had Delta or what | 00:29 |
| rpifan | but why | 00:29 |
| LjL | because of what i just said? | 00:29 |
| rpifan | i had whatever was floating around valencia 3 weeks ago | 00:29 |
| LjL | i'm afraid i don't know what was floating but was likely more than one thing | 00:30 |
| rpifan | was in a hostal | 00:30 |
| rpifan | so its very likely a mix of shit | 00:30 |
| rpifan | lots of foreign ppl | 00:31 |
| rpifan | tho mostly europeans | 00:31 |
| LjL | not entirely sure why you'd do something like that | 00:31 |
| rpifan | welll | 00:31 |
| rpifan | money mostly | 00:31 |
| rpifan | was gonna stay in a hotel but last minute i ran out of money so i had to switch | 00:34 |
| twomoon | what does this mean? ... "disease + vaccine > disease and also > vaccine" ? | 00:35 |
| de-facto | stop traveling rpifan thats not good | 00:37 |
| LjL | twomoon, i mean that getting the disease and the a dose of the vaccine seems to give more/broader immunity than either getting only the vaccine or only the diseease | 00:39 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.04.21261561v1.full | 00:39 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.medrxiv.org: More rapid, robust and sustainable antibody responses to mRNA COVID-19 vaccine in convalescent COVID-19 individuals | medRxiv | 00:39 |
| twomoon | very interesting ljl | 00:41 |
| twomoon | what about getting the vaccine and then a mild infection (reversing the order) | 00:41 |
| twomoon | probably that wouldn't be all that different in immunologically speaking but would be less fatal | 00:42 |
| twomoon | less deleterious i mean | 00:42 |
| LjL | "(19 previously diagnosed with COVID-19 [RecoVax]; 49 never been diagnosed [NaïveVax])" pls | 00:42 |
| LjL | twomoon, not sure they've studied that, but maybe | 00:42 |
| twomoon | hmm i wonder what NaïveVax is , i haven't come across that before | 00:44 |
| LjL | ... | 00:44 |
| twomoon | This study includes the assessment of total antibody levels, antibody avidity and neutralizing antibody levels in 49 uninfected vaccinated (NaïveVax) and 19 previously infected and vaccinated (RecoVax) healthcare workers. This response was again compared with the normal antibody response after infection in 160 unvaccinated patients with mild symptoms (OutPtNoVax) and 122 unvaccinated acutely infected patients (HospoNoVax) at the beginn | 00:44 |
| twomoon | ing of the pandemic. | 00:44 |
| himesama | how do you convince your carer's parents not to fly into town, where there are no mask mandates, in the us, and meet with your carer? probably for dinner and loud talking. | 00:46 |
| himesama | for several weeks | 00:46 |
| LjL | "that'll kill me and i don't want to die, mom" | 00:47 |
| twomoon | naivevax = non-infected and vaccinated | 00:47 |
| himesama | if they don't come now they will have to come in a year and they don't want to do that. carer thinks it is possible to be safe. i do not think so. i am not vaccinated for a variety of health reasons. living in same house. | 00:50 |
| LjL | twomoon, congratulations :P | 00:56 |
| twomoon | i think i'm still missing something tho | 00:56 |
| twomoon | you know that nagging feelling where you just know your comprehension of something is not complete | 00:57 |
| LjL | oh yes but i have it always | 00:57 |
| twomoon | haha | 00:58 |
| twomoon | you should take a break ljl. you're probably frazzled at this point without fully realizing it | 01:03 |
| Gabin | Did someone say coffee break? | 01:03 |
| Gabin | Oh, nope, that's just the voice in my head saying "Coffee break!" every five minutes. | 01:04 |
| Gabin | So, I have a friend... | 01:04 |
| Gabin | And they won't get vaccinated. | 01:04 |
| Gabin | But they currently live near an urban and perhaps left-leaning city, so many people they know give them a hard time. | 01:05 |
| twomoon | pushing vaccines now isn't the same as pushing vaccines 5 months ago | 01:05 |
| twomoon | it's starting to become obvious that the vaccine needs to be updated to handle the new variants | 01:06 |
| twomoon | that the mutation rate is very high | 01:06 |
| Gabin | They've had covid twice, that I'm aware of. | 01:06 |
| twomoon | i'm sure some smart ppl see that updated mrna vaccines are on the way | 01:07 |
| twomoon | and if people can be literal hermits until then, it may be better to wait it out | 01:07 |
| Gabin | Should I be putting more effort into reasoning with this person? When they explain how they're justified, some of it is hogwash and I ask them to stop expecting me to swallow their explanations, or even having to hear it without a big keyboard nearby. | 01:08 |
| Gabin | "But Fauci is lying, he's gonna get fired!", etc. | 01:09 |
| dTal | probably not | 01:09 |
| Gabin | I'm not big into keeping up with the news, but hearing this FoxNews type stuff pushes me into having to call them on each detail. | 01:09 |
| Gabin | "Hold on, let's research what really happened." | 01:10 |
| dTal | I can't tell you the right strategy, but trying to argue with facts and logic is the wrong one. | 01:10 |
| dTal | if they've had covid twice I wonder if getting vaccinated is even worth it for them anyway | 01:11 |
| Gabin | Well, many places have a policy that if you are not vaccinated, you need to wear a mask. | 01:15 |
| LjL | twomoon, i'm taking a break, barely looked at the channel today | 01:17 |
| LjL | my policy has a place that if you're a human over 6 years old, you need to wear a mask. also i noticed what i just typed at the start of this sentence, but decided to leave it that way. | 01:18 |
| twomoon | masks are rough in hot weather. i know they help but damn they're rough when it's like 60% humidity and 30C | 01:21 |
| LjL | it's indoors only now | 01:25 |
| LjL | outdoors you need to be carrying one, but don't need to be wearing it unless you can't maintain distancing | 01:25 |
| LjL | i.e. you don't | 01:25 |
| de-facto | Masks dont restrict any breathing, its about getting used to them, i was able to drive bicycle fast in summer heat with FFP3 without being restricted from the mask | 01:46 |
| Julius_ | Why am I in this channel again? Covid-19 does not exist, and the people in here are fascist idiots. Fuck | 01:46 |
| Julius_ | Shit auto-connect | 01:47 |
| de-facto | lol you are not expecting anyone to believe your bs are you? | 01:47 |
| twomoon | he's trolling | 01:47 |
| twomoon | don't react to it defacto | 01:48 |
| twomoon | masks restrict breathing if you have health problems like me and already almost have congestive heart failure | 01:48 |
| twomoon | they definitely restrict breathing a little | 01:48 |
| Julius_ | de-facto, you dont have to believe anything. You just have to proof Sars-Cov-2 exists if you claim so | 01:49 |
| twomoon | and when you say "they don't restrict any breathing" you just mean " a healthy person shouldn't experience reduced blood oxygen levels after wearing a mask when he's not exercising" or something like that | 01:49 |
| Julius_ | Btw, you can even win 1.2 million dollars by proving that, so good luck | 01:49 |
| dTal | Julius_: why are you still here? I thought you joined by mistake | 01:50 |
| de-facto | Julius_, i dont have to proof anything to you, your claims are ridiculous, a statement about your mental capacity rather than about what you say | 01:50 |
| Julius_ | dTal, shitty autoconnect brought me back to you fascists :/ | 01:50 |
| dTal | and yet you're still here | 01:50 |
| dTal | talking | 01:50 |
| LjL | and ban evading | 01:50 |
| Julius_ | de-facto, thats how science works. If you dont have a proof, dont claim Sars-Cov-2 exists | 01:50 |
| de-facto | there are many proofs it exists thats consensus for anyone with half of a brain | 01:51 |
| rpifan | well i had covid now | 01:51 |
| rpifan | i can travel | 01:51 |
| Julius_ | And if Sars-Cov-2 does not exist, so does Covid-19 not exist by definition | 01:51 |
| de-facto | you trolling about it being non existent is an extraordinary claim that you wont be able to prove | 01:51 |
| twomoon | de-facto, can't you tell he's trolling | 01:51 |
| twomoon | you're feeding him right now | 01:51 |
| Julius_ | de-facto, there is no proof it exists. There even was a case where a Canadian court couldnt proof the existence lately | 01:51 |
| LjL | <Brainstorm> New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Serbia authorises third shot of COVID-19 vaccine, minister says → https://is.gd/8tRJ8c | 01:54 |
| dTal | Gabin, that's an awful rule both ways | 01:54 |
| dTal | vaccinated people should still wear masks, especially with delta | 01:55 |
| joebrandin | hello | 01:55 |
| LjL | hi | 01:55 |
| dTal | but natural immunity should "count" imo | 01:55 |
| joebrandin | have you guys met any people who just vaccinated? | 01:56 |
| joebrandin | and felt side effects? | 01:56 |
| dTal | only in the mirror this morning | 01:56 |
| joebrandin | so called shedding xd | 01:56 |
| LjL | no side effects for myself, very mild ones for my parents, although a puzzling potential one with my mom | 01:56 |
| dTal | "shedding" whut | 01:56 |
| LjL | oh, you mean *that* | 01:57 |
| joebrandin | protein | 01:57 |
| joebrandin | and potentially more | 01:57 |
| LjL | dTal, anti-vax people have come up with this idea that your S-proteins as a vaccinated persons will be breathed out and they will "catch" them | 01:57 |
| himesama | that is probably conspiracy stuff | 01:57 |
| LjL | so they're turning the whole thing around and talking about being vaccinated against the vaccinated | 01:57 |
| LjL | i'm really not sure how much more ridiculous things can get | 01:57 |
| dTal | LjL: yeah I vaguely gather... | 01:57 |
| joebrandin | would be interesting to test already vaccinated for presense of s protein pass 1 month | 01:57 |
| joebrandin | LjL, well in usa many vaccinated people are banned from premises | 01:58 |
| twomoon | almost everyone i know felt side effects such as aches and pains and headache and basically just want to incapacitated for a day | 01:58 |
| dTal | joebrandin: the "shedding" thing is about 5 layers of baloney | 01:58 |
| LjL | joebrandin, but how? if it's somehow still being produced, it might be in specialized places, and you may not just find it in the blood or breath | 01:58 |
| twomoon | i mean, just want to be in bed for a day | 01:58 |
| dTal | twomoon: that's me today | 01:58 |
| joebrandin | shedding is real | 01:58 |
| joebrandin | i met one vaccinated person same day - heavy legs | 01:58 |
| dTal | no headache or flu symptoms but really wiped out | 01:58 |
| joebrandin | etc | 01:58 |
| joebrandin | had to take antidote | 01:59 |
| dTal | "antidote"? | 01:59 |
| joebrandin | yes | 01:59 |
| dTal | what "antidote"? | 01:59 |
| joebrandin | well its a fairly common word | 02:00 |
| LjL | *sigh* | 02:00 |
| joebrandin | so yes took antidote for days | 02:00 |
| dTal | let me get this straight, "antidote" for "heavy legs" caused by vaccine "shedding"? | 02:00 |
| himesama | shedding occurs with vaccines. but only certain ones. my doctor said so. but i suspect the word is being used too sloppily here. | 02:00 |
| LjL | dTal, SHEDDING, WHICH IS REAL GODDAMMIT | 02:00 |
| LjL | but also | 02:00 |
| LjL | no | 02:00 |
| LjL | if "shedding is real" show me the study that say so | 02:00 |
| dTal | antidotes are for poisons | 02:01 |
| joebrandin | have you guys done a blood test to see if you still produce spike protein? | 02:01 |
| LjL | if there is no legitimate study that says so, don't say it | 02:01 |
| joebrandin | well spike protein is a poison | 02:01 |
| LjL | joebrandin, has the person that purportedly gave you heavy legs? | 02:01 |
| dTal | okay I'm switching off now | 02:01 |
| LjL | joebrandin, this is not the channel for you | 02:01 |
| joebrandin | i could not convince her to do the test | 02:01 |
| joebrandin | maybe you can do it? | 02:01 |
| joebrandin | why speculate, test and see | 02:01 |
| LjL | no, sorry | 02:01 |
| himesama | cdc says so | 02:02 |
| joebrandin | well if its nothing, nothing will be there | 02:02 |
| dTal | joebrandin, I don't know if you're trolling or deluded | 02:02 |
| dTal | but this is way out there | 02:02 |
| LjL | joebrandin, but i might catch COVID in the process of getting tested | 02:02 |
| LjL | bright fucking idea | 02:02 |
| joebrandin | LjL, ? | 02:02 |
| joebrandin | you simply send blood to lab | 02:02 |
| joebrandin | to see if it contains s proteins | 02:02 |
| LjL | sure, i draw my own blood | 02:02 |
| joebrandin | yes | 02:02 |
| LjL | no | 02:02 |
| joebrandin | you are vaccinated right? | 02:02 |
| LjL | yes | 02:03 |
| dTal | this is ludicrous | 02:03 |
| joebrandin | and vaccine suppose to protect from covid | 02:03 |
| himesama | flu vaccine shedding https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/acip/safety-vaccines.htm | 02:03 |
| joebrandin | well then | 02:03 |
| LjL | no | 02:03 |
| twomoon | the reason i chose a mrna vaccine over a adenovirus vaccine is because it looks like mrna have been studied a long enough time already and adenovirus has more weird issues in its history | 02:03 |
| LjL | we know very well now that the vaccine doesn't fully protect against Delta | 02:03 |
| LjL | which is prevalent in my country | 02:03 |
| LjL | and you know that as well | 02:03 |
| joebrandin | then why vaccinate? | 02:03 |
| joebrandin | if its not working | 02:03 |
| LjL | you know all these things very well | 02:03 |
| dTal | 50% reduction in long covid risk | 02:03 |
| LjL | i didn't say "it's not working" | 02:03 |
| LjL | i said something very different | 02:03 |
| joebrandin | define fully | 02:03 |
| LjL | no | 02:03 |
| LjL | i have spent months gathering studies on things | 02:03 |
| joebrandin | its either works or dont | 02:03 |
| LjL | you can see them in the topic and in zotero | 02:04 |
| LjL | no it's not | 02:04 |
| LjL | but maybe you're a black and white kind of person | 02:04 |
| LjL | we don't want them here | 02:04 |
| LjL | please find your way out | 02:04 |
| joebrandin | bizzare fears | 02:04 |
| joebrandin | use science | 02:04 |
| joebrandin | do blood test | 02:04 |
| * LjL tells him "i gathered a ton of scientific studies in the place you can see above", he goes "use science!" | 02:04 | |
| twomoon | but let's not pussyfoot. a lot of pro vaccine folks have been caught off guard by how well the vaccine can infect and multiply in certain tissues of the vaccinated folks | 02:05 |
| himesama | multiply? | 02:05 |
| himesama | why would it multiply? | 02:05 |
| himesama | or do you mean the vector ones? | 02:05 |
| twomoon | i mean the virus, not the vaccine | 02:05 |
| LjL | twomoon, yes, you know, things don't always go the way you want | 02:05 |
| twomoon | sorry | 02:05 |
| LjL | that doesn't make the vaccine worthless though | 02:06 |
| LjL | it certainly calls for better ones | 02:06 |
| dTal | ...it makes it kinda worthless, to be honest. | 02:06 |
| twomoon | yes i know but it does show that the predictions of even the smartest people can be quite off | 02:06 |
| LjL | dTal, remember when you just got a vaccine yesterday? | 02:06 |
| LjL | :P | 02:06 |
| dTal | I mean I just got vaccinated, but it will make no difference to my quality of life. | 02:06 |
| LjL | dTal, agreed on that | 02:06 |
| dTal | Still have to wear a mask everywhere, avoid gatherings, have no social life | 02:07 |
| LjL | dTal, but what about that amount of deaths on the curve? isn't it mostly a good thing to see it much lower? | 02:07 |
| twomoon | i actually like wearing masks. maybe we can make influenza extinct forever with masks =) | 02:09 |
| dTal | LjL: is it much lower? | 02:09 |
| twomoon | but masks are hard on floridians and southern italians and malaysians let's not pussyfoot | 02:09 |
| LjL | i don't think i do | 02:09 |
| LjL | dTal, in proportion to the case count... yes | 02:09 |
| LjL | the case count is mostly continuing to do its own thing | 02:10 |
| LjL | which is a shame | 02:10 |
| LjL | but about 1/10 the deaths, i'll take that for the time being | 02:10 |
| twomoon | pls feel free to make a bold prediction for when pandemic will end | 02:13 |
| LjL | depending on the definition - not in my lifetime | 02:13 |
| twomoon | i just wanna be able to look back on this chat and say "hah that turned out to be pretty prescient" | 02:13 |
| dTal | that's extravagant | 02:13 |
| twomoon | although, i don't save chats really | 02:13 |
| dTal | another few years would be my guess | 02:14 |
| LjL | dTal, you know, you're saying more or less the same thing i used to say when having tantrums against the possibility i'd get AZ, "with that vaccine nothing would change for me". which was probably true, in part because it was my subjective perception of how protected i was that would make it true | 02:14 |
| LjL | i did say depending on the definition, but, i think this virus will come back repeatedly from animal reservoirs close to humans | 02:15 |
| LjL | so there will be an end to the "pandemic" in the sense of a continuing general emergency, but there will have to be continuing vigilance and possibly local lockdowns and more rushes to make vaccine | 02:15 |
| himesama | if a vaccine is 39 percent effective against infection, does that mean every high risk exposure to known contagion has a 61 percent chance of infecting? if no mask or poor seal. | 02:16 |
| LjL | twomoon, i don't know if i can make predictions about more specific things but if you define when in your view it stops being a "pandemic" maybe i can be more specific | 02:16 |
| LjL | himesama, not necessarily because the vaccine being 39% effective (or whatever is the number) may mean that it's just near-100% effective for some people, and near-0% for others, and you don't know which you are | 02:17 |
| LjL | not saying that's actually the case, but it could be | 02:18 |
| LjL | anyway no vaccinated person should knowingly be having a "high risk exposure to known contagion", that's for sure | 02:18 |
| twomoon | it stops being a pandemic when the prevailing variants no longer have the dangerous ACE2-attacking spike protein because evolutionary pressures from the vaccines have made the ACE2-attacking spike protein useless for propagation | 02:18 |
| LjL | with no mask or whatnot | 02:18 |
| LjL | twomoon, why? what if the other ways they find for propagation end up being worse? | 02:19 |
| twomoon | yeah that's true, i didn't think of that heh | 02:19 |
| LjL | there are already hints the virus has other ways of attacking cells, nixonix may be the expert on that | 02:19 |
| LjL | one threshold line that's often brought up is "when it's about as deadly as the flu and no more" | 02:19 |
| LjL | but i have some issues with that | 02:19 |
| LjL | 1) what about long COVID? is it still going to be more prevalent than "long flu"? | 02:20 |
| LjL | 2) is it going to be "just a flu" for everyone, or just for younger people who catch it as kids? | 02:20 |
| LjL | plus, but i already said it, 3) is the potential for coming back mutated (from animals, humans, whatever) in a way that makes it much nastier going to be higher than the flu? | 02:20 |
| twomoon | our scientific understand of biology is not yet to the point where we can figure out ahead of time all the possible ways a spike protein can be 'dangerous' to a cell | 02:24 |
| twomoon | this is a tought predicament to be in | 02:24 |
| lasexivovobesto | Are there booster vaccines for the delta variant yet? | 02:26 |
| LjL | no | 02:26 |
| lasexivovobesto | ah ok | 02:26 |
| LjL | not outside of trials anyway | 02:26 |
| de-facto | himesama, vaccine efficacy VE := 1 - RR = 1 - ARV/ARU hene RR = 1 - VE = ARV/ARU or ARV = RR ARU = (1 - VE) ARU, with ARV = breakthrough / vaccinated and ARU = infections / unvaccinated | 02:26 |
| LjL | but they're being developed | 02:26 |
| lasexivovobesto | Neat | 02:26 |
| LjL | twomoon, i'm not sure why you fixate on the spike protein though, the spike protein itself is only so dangerous because it is what lets the virus enter the cells. all viruses have *something* that gets them into cells, or they wouldn't be much of a virus | 02:27 |
| LjL | (the S-protein may be dangerous for other reasons that the anti-vax people like to tout, as well, but we don't know that for sure and the bulk of the danger is almost certainly not from them) | 02:27 |
| twomoon | but it is the spike protein which decides which tissue to infect and that is what makes the virus effective in harming people | 02:28 |
| LjL | lasexivovobesto, if you look at the top of the "vaccines" section at https://github.com/ljl-covid/links we have some trackers listed that follow the development of most/all vaccines | 02:28 |
| lasexivovobesto | How much computational power does it take to simulate a spike protein and a cell? | 02:28 |
| lasexivovobesto | Oh thanks | 02:28 |
| LjL | simulating a cell is definitely going to be a very tall call | 02:28 |
| LjL | iow nothing we're even close to doing now | 02:28 |
| LjL | protein folding itself is still complicated | 02:29 |
| lasexivovobesto | Well I know there's BOINC pools for protein folding | 02:29 |
| himesama | nobody knows all metabolism | 02:29 |
| LjL | yeah, because while it's easy to go from DNA/RNA to amino acids (well, sometimes there are tricks that make even that tricky, but still), it's not easy to go from the amino acids to the eventual form the protein will take, nevermind its properties and what it can interact with and in what ways | 02:30 |
| himesama | sorry, don't understand. this could be useful. rr means what? hene means what? can you supply a real-world example poerhaps? --- 17:26 <de-facto> himesama, vaccine efficacy VE := 1 - RR = 1 - ARV/ARU hene RR = 1 - VE = ARV/ARU or ARV = RR ARU = (1 - VE) ARU, with ARV = breakthrough / vaccinated and ARU = infections / unvaccinated | 02:31 |
| de-facto | RR = 1 - VE = ARV / ARU is the risk ratio of the two attack rates and hene is a hence without the c | 02:32 |
| de-facto | the risk ratio determines how much the attack rates are reduced relative to non-vaccinated people exposed to same conditions | 02:33 |
| de-facto | suppose VE = 90% hence RR = 100% - 90% = 10% = ARV / ARU hence ARV = 10% ARU | 02:33 |
| himesama | 2 people, a and b, take a plane across the usa, and they are vaccinated, and then spend weeks at destination. destination has no mask mandate and poor compliance and poor vaccination rate. 1 person, c, is also vaccinate dwith pfizer. spends lots of time with a and b. likely eats meals with them, at restaurants. many times. | 02:35 |
| de-facto | meaning from 10 cases in unvaccinated 9 are prevented and one is a breakthrough | 02:35 |
| himesama | i want to know, in that case, what the probability is of c being infected. reason being that i live with c, and i am extremely vulnerable and unvaccinated and a hospital stay itself would be dangerous for unrelated health reasons. i want to approximate the chances of c getting infected. | 02:38 |
| de-facto | impossible since you dont know all the situations they are participating in | 02:38 |
| de-facto | breakthrough infections are possible and with either slightly reduced shedding or even shedding with similar viral load to non-vaccinated | 02:39 |
| de-facto | its all about probabilities for large cohorts, it does not allow to predict single scenarios | 02:40 |
| himesama | and 1000x the original outbreaks virions (although not known if viable or so) | 02:40 |
| de-facto | yes | 02:40 |
| himesama | it seems without me being able to calculated it that the chances of c getting infected are high. also, if c gets infecdted, i am likely not to surivive for complex reasons i won't go into. | 02:41 |
| de-facto | they measured ~10 ct values difference in china for delta to the a/b strain | 02:41 |
| himesama | and the chances of a and b getting infected are even higher | 02:41 |
| himesama | and the hances of my getting infected if c gets infeted is high as i cannot wear mask all the time sharing indoor space etc. | 02:42 |
| himesama | as it turns out, a is a mathematician. if i can provide a plausible, even if approximate, math for this, perhaps it could convince that airplane not good idea. | 02:44 |
| himesama | retired mathematician, elderly | 02:44 |
| LjL | maybe a would tell c that their chances of having bad outcomes from the vaccines are dwarfed by their chances of getting bad outcomes from covid | 02:46 |
| Gabin | How does natural immunity compare to having two mRNA shots? Can we put this on a linear spectrum? | 02:47 |
| himesama | a b c are all vaccinated | 02:47 |
| LjL | right, then not c, you. | 02:48 |
| himesama | c with pfize | 02:48 |
| Gabin | And how does natural immunity from having covid about a year ago, compare in the context of variants and boosters? | 02:48 |
| de-facto | Gabin, recoveries immunity spreads from non-existent to almost as high neutralization as mRNA vaccination | 02:48 |
| himesama | if i get vaccinated this very minute, without even checking to see if i would get fatal anaphylaxis or angioedema or permanent worsening of other conditions, my antibodies will not be anywhere close to where they need to be by the time c becomes contagious | 02:49 |
| Gabin | ah, so like 0 <= nat_imm <= mRNA vacc? | 02:49 |
| de-facto | its not clear since immunity from recovery spreads a LOT | 02:49 |
| himesama | i will get vaccinated and will be taking enormous risks to do so. i do not know when. | 02:50 |
| de-facto | also the symptoms are extremely diverse, some have none others end on ICU | 02:50 |
| Gabin | spreads? you mean like natural immunity has statistically been transmissible? | 02:50 |
| de-facto | spreads in a statistical way about a very wide range | 02:50 |
| LjL | himesama, well, i'm just thinking, you've waited months and now you're close to a "risk encounter"... maybe it would be *more* worth to take those enormous risks *somewhat early* so that you're actually protected, you know, before getting sick. hindsight maybe. | 02:50 |
| Gabin | Ah. | 02:50 |
| lasexivovobesto | What kind of risks? How would getting vaccinated cause fatal anaphylaxis or angioedema etc? | 02:51 |
| Gabin | I recall Fauci recently saying that unvaccinated and vaccinated may start with similar transmissibility, but it drops off faster in vaccinated. | 02:51 |
| Gabin | Like, "number of contagions" or something like that. | 02:51 |
| LjL | de-facto, Gabin: also let's not forget the usual: it's not just about *how many* antibodies, but also *how many types* of antibodies (the breadth of response, not so much IgG vs others), and then T-cells, and maybe other things we know even less about. meaning: immunity from getting the disease might be quite *different* in a not directly comparable way from vaccine immunity, especially given the vaccines we use only present the S-protein instead of a full virus | 02:52 |
| himesama | i am going as fast as possible with appointment with doctor to discuss whether the vaccine will kill me or not, etc. | 02:52 |
| LjL | lasexivovobesto, he has some unusualconditions | 02:52 |
| Gabin | Symptoms? Most people I talk to say they had soreness in muscle surrounding shot, me included. | 02:52 |
| lasexivovobesto | Oh, that sucks | 02:52 |
| Gabin | I'm guessing that's because the mRNA vaccine is doing work in the surrounding muscle tissue? | 02:53 |
| LjL | well, i don't know, honestly i imagine even if you were just being injected saline, it would hurt for a while | 02:53 |
| Gabin | himesama: If I understand correctly, usually the risks of not acting outweigh the risks of doing. | 02:53 |
| LjL | strangely it almost didn't hurt for me after the second shot | 02:54 |
| LjL | Gabin, again he has some unusual conditions, and while i think i still agree with you even in that case, #itscomplicated | 02:54 |
| de-facto | its the early immune reaction against the intruder, in this case the vaccine itself and the cells beginning to bloom with the antigen, the s-protein, provoking the immune system to raise its response and learn to recognize it next time | 02:54 |
| Gabin | Okay | 02:54 |
| de-facto | the early reaction is called reactogenicity and its not directly linked to later immunogenicity (generating the immunity) because that needs a lot of time and optimization hence the long process of two shots and weeks delay | 02:55 |
| LjL | Gabin, i'm not shutting discussion of this up, i just want to avoid him needing to keep repeating that the situation is not typical | 02:55 |
| himesama | again, even getting vaccinated right this minute (not possible but still) will not stop any transmission to me for this particular case | 02:55 |
| Gabin | Understood. Sorry, I didn't read the scrollback carefully. | 02:56 |
| himesama | it will b useful for future cases, but i might not be alive in future cases if this viusit goes ahead | 02:56 |
| LjL | himesama, okay, but, while right now we may think real hard on how to avoid this visit going badly (not sure how much we can really do, but for argument's sake), i have a feeling that afterwards, you'll still stall because you won't be feeling like you have a proper risk assessment. but will you ever? | 02:57 |
| Gabin | I was going to the gym with the "if no vacc, wear a mask" policy, and so I was thankful to take mask off, especially for cardio, and obviously when swimming. (I noticed a swimming instructor wear a face shield.) | 02:58 |
| Gabin | Not just for ease of breathing, but it just feels gross to breathe heavily into a mask, and sweat, etc. | 02:58 |
| himesama | i will get vaccinated even with the extremely high unknowns and risks. i have to. it might not be soon but that is not due to feeling. | 02:58 |
| Gabin | I do still attempt to keep distance when mask is off, and wipe down equipment with the provided sanitary wipes. | 02:59 |
| LjL | Gabin, unsolicited advice, but, either keep wearing the mask, or don't go, is what i would do. not before Delta, but definitely after Delta. | 02:59 |
| LjL | of course i realize it's far from great to wear a mask while exercising, but *shudder* Delta | 02:59 |
| himesama | where can i get a mask of any type that is at least as good as n95 and has no valve i suspect i have to leave hosue to get vaccinated and whereever i go will insist on non-valved even if i tape my valves seurely. | 03:00 |
| LjL | Gabin, to be fair, if you're wearing an N95, breathing heavily into it means making it wet which it has been my understanding it means rendering it almost useless | 03:00 |
| Gabin | Yeah, fortunately trying to go frequently to gym was a short experiment in getting more cardio, I will probably start to do more staying isolated, I think I'm fine going back to just strength training at home for a while. | 03:01 |
| Gabin | Interesting. | 03:01 |
| LjL | himesama, get a 3M Aura. Amazon should carry them. | 03:01 |
| LjL | Gabin, i have a treadmill at home. they are not cheap, but if you have some space for it, it's not like gyms are free either | 03:01 |
| Gabin | Yeah I'm considering getting cardio equipment for home. I think I'm hesitant to committing to a single choice of cardio movement. I'll probably sooner get a heart rate monitor, and just use my current equipment to the point that it keeps my heart rate to a certain level. | 03:03 |
| Gabin | I'm guessing a heart rate as a target is a sufficient replacement for "cardio machine" | 03:04 |
| LjL | Gabin, i haven't found a heart rate monitor that's actually reliable while exercising, let me know if you find one... anyway what most random people get is an exercise bike, but i think that's much more prone to causing issues than something you just run on | 03:04 |
| LjL | issues for you, not mechanical issues. the mechanical issues are worse with the treadmill i'm afraid :P | 03:05 |
| Gabin | I don't think running works for me anymore, given my current body state, I don't want to gamble in investing in it right now. I was looking at rowers, bike machine may work. Presumably the heart rate monitors that go around the torso give more accurate data than the type that read your skin on wrist or w/e. | 03:06 |
| Gabin | I have a squat stand with pull up bar, spotter arms, rings, a bench, I think I could creatively use all that to get heart rate up, if I had a monitor to motivate. | 03:07 |
| Gabin | Oh, the running is also an issue as noise passes to neighbors too easily here. | 03:08 |
| rpifan | fancy gym with a ppool | 03:08 |
| Gabin | Yeah my gym has pool, basketball court, etc. | 03:08 |
| Gabin | LjL: Are you on any channels where it's more appropriate to discuss the tangent on cardio? So now I'm curious how you felt heart rate monitors did not suffice, as I am somewhat in the market searching for one. | 03:14 |
| LjL | Gabin, no, not really. i've only had experience with a wrist band (accurate statically, shit while moving), the electric monitor that's part of my treadmill (bad idea to keep touching the bars, but even aside from that, it sucks and measures all wrong), and i did have a torso one which also didn't work very well at all, at least not before you were properly sweating | 03:15 |
| rpifan | fancy | 03:15 |
| LjL | but it's all stuff on the cheap side | 03:15 |
| Gabin | "Buy nice not twice" ;) | 03:16 |
| Gabin | -- salesman, probably | 03:16 |
| LjL | yeah, for each of them "nice" is whatever they're selling :P | 03:16 |
| Gabin | I saw it on a forum so they couldn't have been affiliated /s | 03:17 |
| LjL | i'm not really seeing any channel that may have better info on this in the channel list | 03:18 |
| Gabin | Is there an ideal sort of mask for cardio in the gym? I've been wearing these OR masks since the beginning, when I bothered to search for masks with a nice length adjustment at ear. | 03:20 |
| LjL | not sure. surgical will mostly protect others, but N95 will mostly stop protecting you when it gets wet. maybe some of the reusable masks with a good fit (do they exist?) could be of interest here... they won't be filtering as well as a dry N95, but maybe close to a wet N95 :P but my personal feeling is masks and gyms won't work very well together | 03:22 |
| LjL | so i only have a very few votes in the poll, but since it doesn't look like anybody else is inclined to cast more, does anyone right now have any objection to bringing back the whole Brainstorm & RSS feed into this channel (as opposed to ##covid-ticker) right now? | 03:24 |
| dTal | I guess it's a tradeoff between protection and ease of breathing | 03:24 |
| Gabin | Maybe I should come up with more alternatives, such as just biking to a turf field and jump roping there. Worth an experiment, not sure how much ice and aspirin I'll need after. | 03:25 |
| Gabin | Can't really jump rope at/near home. | 03:25 |
| himesama | who does anybody include? | 03:26 |
| himesama | anyone* (real question) | 03:26 |
| LjL | well, pragmatically anyone who's here right now, but what i said originally was that i wanted votes from channel regulars | 03:27 |
| LjL | someone who's just driving by, i won't count that for much | 03:27 |
| Gabin | I'm new here, but it sounds like something I can write a filter for in my client. I have had to do that on many channels historically. | 03:27 |
| himesama | i am unable to deal with feeds from sources that are known anti-covid | 03:28 |
| himesama | including long covid | 03:28 |
| twomoon | where does gabin live? | 03:29 |
| LjL | himesama, if by "knowing anti-covid including long covid" you include someone who wrote ONE article where he said that some people's symptoms MAY be psychological, i think you're taking it too far. however, fyi, i had already removed Balloux because i consider that he writes too much stuff that's mostly of a bickering nature instead of interesting COVID news. | 03:29 |
| himesama | as for having brainstorm here, if it does not include such feeds, it makes perfect sense | 03:29 |
| LjL | however i'm not going to remove valuable sources just because they happen to have published one article on the Lancet (or the Lancet itself) | 03:29 |
| Gabin | twomoon: crowded area discourages my desire to be noisy at home, or exercise nearby | 03:30 |
| himesama | beg pardon? | 03:30 |
| twomoon | i see | 03:30 |
| LjL | i'm just saying, you don't like Lancet, that's an example of where i would call it nonsense to exclude Lancet from things that Brainstorm posts on just because they have anti-X stances or published anti-X articles sometimes in the past, when it's one of the most used journals for COVID things | 03:30 |
| LjL | similarly Balloux posts many useful things, and i originally added him because nixonix would often bring his tweets up (and, there again, i'm *definitely* not going to ban nixonix because he does that! so do we have a problem with that?) | 03:31 |
| LjL | eventually i found that too many of his tweets are more noise than signal after all, but not because of that one thing he wrote about psychological symptoms | 03:32 |
| himesama | i am feeling very uncomfortable, and your assmptions about why are probabaly false | 03:34 |
| LjL | okay, well, for the time being i'm taking this as you having an objection with me bringing back Brainstorm under the terms i've tried to highlight | 03:35 |
| LjL | so i'll let the poll run for a bit longer | 03:35 |
| LjL | feel free to vote against, i wish i could run it anonymously, but i practically cannot without risk of cheating | 03:36 |
| himesama | beg pardon | 03:36 |
| himesama | '? | 03:36 |
| LjL | so far i've had, i think, *two* votes that weren't my own, so it's not a strong indicator | 03:36 |
| LjL | well, you're saying you're feeling uncomfortable and that indicates you want to drop the discussion for now if you don't want to correct my probable assumptions, so since my assumption is that you're uncomfortable because you don't like what i outlined, it seems logical to consider it an objection like the ones i solicited | 03:37 |
| himesama | i cannot foollow this and i am a lot more uncomfortable now | 03:58 |
| LjL | you said you don't want some sources. i cannot guarantee you won't get any such sources. | 03:59 |
| LjL | that's the gist | 03:59 |
| himesama | you are attacking me again saying i did or said things i did not do or say | 04:16 |
| LjL | <himesama> i am unable to deal with feeds from sources that are known anti-covid | 04:49 |
| LjL | i wonder how that was "not saying it" | 04:49 |
| LjL | <himesama> i am unable to deal with feeds from sources that are known anti-covid | 04:49 |
| LjL | how is saying that "you don't want some sources" attacking you or saying you said things you did not | 04:49 |
| LjL | you literally did say that | 04:49 |
| LjL | i'm a bit fed up, you don't get to use your being uncomfortable/unable/etc as shield for everything | 04:50 |
| himesama | the second i finally fixed my client give me a minute before attacking | 04:50 |
| himesama | (temporarily fixed it, as in, got back on and got the topic) | 04:51 |
| LjL | stop being duplicitous. you just said again i'm attacking you, right after i said i wasn't attacking you but simply representing what you said. | 04:51 |
| LjL | this is not honest. | 04:51 |
| himesama | i didn't hear you say any suych thing but can you lay off for a second please? | 04:52 |
| himesama | espeially with accustions like dishonest | 04:53 |
| LjL | then do the same, especially with accusations like "attacking" | 04:53 |
| LjL | i'm attacking you *now*, because you unwarrantedly said that | 04:53 |
| himesama | well here goes nothing. | 05:44 |
| himesama | what follows is mixture of written earlier and now. it is | 05:45 |
| himesama | not what i would normall write. | 05:45 |
| himesama | "<LjL> however i'm not going to remove valuable sources just | 05:45 |
| himesama | because they happen to have published one article on the | 05:45 |
| himesama | Lancet (or the Lancet itself)" idk if this channel is even | 05:45 |
| himesama | working as i am not getting the topic but i said exactly | 05:45 |
| LjL | ugh | 05:45 |
| himesama | idk if anything got pasted. flood protection. i should have known. | 05:48 |
| himesama | can somebody pm me the last line that got pasted? i dont' want to duplicate | 05:49 |
| himesama | no need | 05:55 |
| himesama | http://sprunge.us/2jn3Ho | 05:55 |
| LjL | himesama, you quit with Excess Flood, you were pasting too many lines at a time | 06:01 |
| LjL | <himesama> working as i am not getting the topic but i said exactly | 06:01 |
| LjL | * himesama has quit (Excess Flood) | 06:01 |
| Jbwncster | I can’t read that | 06:02 |
| LjL | look i could try to explain again why i said those specific things, which were mostly examples to get you to understand what is or isn't going to be posted by the bot | 06:03 |
| LjL | based on some background knowledge of what you don't like | 06:03 |
| himesama | you can't read what | 06:04 |
| LjL | and the fact that you were specifically objecting to that tweet from that person who had written some long COVID symptoms may be psychological. that's *all* i know about that person being "anti long COVID" | 06:04 |
| LjL | but i don't know if i should be bothered, because you go "to say those are unbelievably strong and vicious attacks." | 06:04 |
| LjL | okay so i'm vicious | 06:04 |
| LjL | calling my attempts to explain vicious attacks | 06:05 |
| LjL | i could say THAT's vicious | 06:05 |
| LjL | and in fact, i do | 06:05 |
| LjL | i'm fed up | 06:05 |
| LjL | you gave your opinion | 06:05 |
| LjL | i tried to explain why your opinion didn't quite necessarily match what Brainstorm would post | 06:05 |
| LjL | so i said that i would still hold off putting Brainstorm back on | 06:05 |
| LjL | but then you start saying that i'm attacking and attacking again and now "vicious" | 06:05 |
| LjL | give me a break! | 06:05 |
| LjL | if i'm that vicious, go elsewhere | 06:05 |
| LjL | i'd like you to be here but not if it had to be such a nightmare | 06:06 |
| LjL | sheesh | 06:06 |
| LjL | enough for tonight, i'm gonna sleep | 06:06 |
| LjL | i called your debate method dishonest because that's very much what it felt like | 06:06 |
| LjL | you raise red flags when it looks like it's most convenient | 06:06 |
| LjL | and i've had this for a while and now i'm tired of it | 06:07 |
| LjL | and other people/ops here would probably tell me i'm already spending too much time discussing this | 06:07 |
| LjL | so i'll stop | 06:07 |
| LjL | what is not changing, though, is that some of what Brainstorm posts involves opinions, partly because i cannot magically make it distinguish opinions from specific reports of facts | 06:08 |
| LjL | the same people who report on facts sometimes also give opinions | 06:08 |
| LjL | if just ONE opinion makes you freak out then that's gonna be a problem | 06:08 |
| himesama | <LjL> with all my heart as before: fuck you <himesama> beg pardon? | 06:09 |
| LjL | a few things that are not easy to just catch from the very quick slew of medical papers are said on Twitter instead, so it makes sense for the bot to monitor the Twitter accounts that say those things | 06:09 |
| LjL | but sometimes they'll have their own opinions too | 06:09 |
| LjL | i was exhausted and exasperated, kinda like i am now, except with less tinnitus | 06:09 |
| himesama | only one person in this hannel is allowed personal attacks on another member of the channel in violation of the written intent of the channel | 06:09 |
| LjL | okay | 06:10 |
| LjL | leave | 06:10 |
| LjL | you don't like it here | 06:10 |
| LjL | you don't think i respect my own charter | 06:10 |
| LjL | you're bringing that up again | 06:10 |
| LjL | you always forget and are "unable" to deal with things, unless they are the things that you can use against me | 06:10 |
| LjL | i don't like that, i'm fed up with that | 06:10 |
| himesama | s/attacks/invective | 06:10 |
| LjL | go to ##coronavirus and see if the ops there are better suited for you and won't violate whatever rules they have | 06:10 |
| LjL | if we're going to go back to all that stuff, then well, you PRETENDED not to understand what "R" was and asking "why do we have opinions posted here" while you were SPECIFICALLY knowingly complaining about that particular person | 06:11 |
| LjL | that is also dishonest debate tactics | 06:11 |
| LjL | and then you pretended not to understand that i was frustrated because i had fixed something and immediately someone complained about it | 06:12 |
| LjL | you understand very very selectively | 06:12 |
| himesama | http://sprunge.us/cREjWI | 06:12 |
| himesama | is the rest fwiw no need to read if you don't want to | 06:12 |
| himesama | pretended? | 06:12 |
| himesama | beg pardon? | 06:12 |
| LjL | you are lying | 06:13 |
| LjL | "member, aimed with seeming intent to cause harm, in | 06:13 |
| LjL | contradiction imio to the channel written intentions, AND | 06:13 |
| LjL | can do so without any repercussions at any time" | 06:13 |
| himesama | for example why is it implausible that i don't know who r is? why are you accusing me of dihonesty ad laying? seriously. why? | 06:13 |
| LjL | it had repercussions on me. i got mad. i left the channel. i removed brainstorm | 06:13 |
| LjL | I CRIED FFS | 06:13 |
| himesama | (i mean, i know who r is now. did not then.) | 06:13 |
| LjL | do you think you're the only one who's affected by things? | 06:13 |
| LjL | and then | 06:13 |
| LjL | "and who has no problem implying banning anybody he doesn't | 06:13 |
| LjL | like instead of listening to something that was trying to | 06:13 |
| LjL | say somehting that you might have found useful." | 06:13 |
| LjL | i didn't ban you | 06:13 |
| LjL | i didn't ban ANYONE when i've thrown a tantrum | 06:13 |
| LjL | the only person i've banned was myself, and my bot | 06:13 |
| LjL | so stop fucking lying to me with these things | 06:14 |
| himesama | it's implication | 06:14 |
| LjL | very obvious implication | 06:14 |
| LjL | it's not better to make things implied, so that you can always claim you didn't mean that, than to be direct and go "fuck you" | 06:14 |
| LjL | maybe it is in your culture, i don't know | 06:14 |
| LjL | in my culture and in my view, being sly with implications is annoying, and there's a point i'm going to get very direct about it and very angry | 06:15 |
| LjL | but i STILL didn't ban or threaten a ban | 06:15 |
| LjL | so do NOT lie about that | 06:15 |
| himesama | you have banned recently, you hafve that power, there is asymmetry | 06:15 |
| LjL | that is NOT something "i can deal with" | 06:15 |
| himesama | again with lying? beg pardon? | 06:15 |
| LjL | and stop saying "beg pardon" | 06:15 |
| LjL | you are understanding what i'm saying very well | 06:15 |
| LjL | now this discussion is over | 06:15 |
| LjL | not gonna ban you | 06:15 |
| LjL | maybe some other op will want to remove that later | 06:16 |
| LjL | and they can determine how much we're both responsible for +m being set at this point | 06:16 |
| LjL-Matrix | Peter: +m means the channel is moderated, which means only users which +v (voiced) or +o (opped) can speak | 18:04 |
| pwr22 | Ah k | 18:20 |
| pwr22 | I was guessing muted | 18:20 |
| pwr22-guest | Does this message still appear in matrix... | 19:46 |
| pwr22 | Hey LjL matrix lets me kick IRC users if I op up first | 19:47 |
| pwr22 | LjL: ^ | 19:47 |
| LjL-Matrix | Peter: but now in Matrix I see a separate pwr22 user! | 19:48 |
| LjL | pwr22, test | 19:48 |
| pwr22 | Ah weird, who does this message come from? | 19:49 |
| LjL-Matrix | still Peter | 19:49 |
| pwr22 | Ha weird | 19:49 |
| LjL-Matrix | pwr22-guest: do you have to do anything special to kick users when you're opped (like doing it through the appservice), or is it just a Matrix kick? | 19:50 |
| LjL-Matrix | err | 19:50 |
| LjL-Matrix | Peter even | 19:50 |
| pwr22 | Some weirdness about it being a bridged / vs plumbed room maybe | 19:50 |
| pwr22-guest | I just did a regular matrix kick | 19:50 |
| pwr22-guest | I had to `op ##covid-19` to chanserv first | 19:51 |
| LjL-Matrix | That's nice, the thing though is you do need to op yourself manually, unless you are set as always-opped but Libera frowns on that | 19:51 |
| pwr22 | Yeah, really the bridge should try to op up if can I guess | 19:51 |
| pwr22 | I'll take a look at the code some time and see what it does | 19:52 |
| pwr22 | At least so far messages are still getting into IRC from matrix despite there me two me's | 19:52 |
| LjL-Matrix | Maybe they don't want to write network-specific things, as ChanServ doesn't work the same on all networks (although the /cs op command... I suspect it's preeeetty similar almost anywhere) | 19:52 |
| pwr22 | Or maybe libera won't mind if people are op'd all the time in matrix bridged rooms where the bridge is like a core part of the room rather than a nice to have add on | 19:53 |
| pwr22 | They have already written network specific stuff for it ha ha | 19:53 |
| pwr22 | Probably just an oversight | 19:53 |
| pwr22 | Probably find that the matrix admins in #matrix:matrix.org are constantly op'd in IRC? | 19:54 |
| pwr22 | Ah the abuse bot is yeah | 19:54 |
| pwr22 | That's their Mjolnir instance | 19:54 |
| LjL-Matrix | The abuse bot puzzles me a bit, in two ways: one I think if you were designing a brand new chat system, you'd try to make it so administration tools are powerful enough that you don't need a bot to help (on IRC, all the bots are partly due to the design of the network), and two, on Libera it's also kinda frowned upon to hide who is doing op actions... for example there is /cs quiet, where the quiet is done by ChanServ, but the quieted user | 19:58 |
| LjL-Matrix | is still told in a NOTICE which op did it | 19:58 |
| pwr22 | Yeah it's definitely a different approach than IRC which I'm not particularly a fan of | 20:03 |
| pwr22 | I don't think the bot does anything that can't be done manually by a mod but just builds some automation on top of it | 20:03 |
| pwr22 | I expect more will end up in the client / protocol eventually | 20:04 |
| pwr22 | Atm they need to get decentralised reputation stuff going then hopefully there'll be less need for so much manual moderation | 20:04 |
| LjL | pwr22, "reputation"? | 20:19 |
| LjL | feeds will be back here shortly, since trying to talk about it seems to do the opposite of helping | 20:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from WebMD: Minnesota Mom Gets Vaccinated for Son’s Birthday: Minnesota resident Sheletta Brundidge , 49, expected her son to ask for an Xbox or a pair of LeBron James shoes for his 15th birthday. Instead, he had one simple request: that his mother get vaccinated against COVID-19. → https://is.gd/JNtCPM | 20:58 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Sri Lanka: +3870 cases (now 358550), +167 deaths (now 6263) since 20 hours ago — South Africa: +7983 cases (now 2.6 million), +299 deaths (now 77440), +37891 tests (now 15.6 million) since 23 hours ago | 21:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Biden orders 1,000 more troops from the 82nd Airborne to Afghanistan. The additional boots bring the total American soldier count to 7,000, a number that has continually increased since late last week. → https://is.gd/E3qtLv | 21:19 |
| lastshell | 3rd shot https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/16/covid-vaccine-booster-shot-pfizer-submits-data-to-fda-for-approval.html | 21:29 |
| nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/WesElyMD/status/1427230261289304068 | 21:29 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: WesElyMD (@WesElyMD): "4/ ✈️ “AIRPLAINES” of people have been dying daily 20 mos. But how does it break down by #Unvaxxed vs #Vaccinated? Unvaxxed U.S. deaths equate to ~3 full 787 flights crashing [...] | 21:29 |
| lastshell | looks like now the 3rd shot will be for general population | 21:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: Could oxidative stress ("redox imbalance") be the link between #LongCovid and myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS)?A new perspective @PNASNews https://www.pnas.org/content/118/34/e2024358118 → https://is.gd/mhd6Ln | 21:30 |
| lastshell | any insight of why not the FDA wants a 3rd shot for general population ? | 21:31 |
| nixonix | how do they know if someone got decent ab response or not from the 2nd shot? how often is that checked, eg for typical old person? | 21:31 |
| nixonix | theres some points that are not clear yet, even about the 2nd shot, eg ab maturation. like was mentioned in that paper defacto linked couple of days ago, which also refered to those influenza vaccine studies ive mentioned when talking about adjuvanted vaccines possibly the solution for immunity lasting | 21:33 |
| nixonix | the part where it discussed (that paper) about possibly not a good idea to repeatedly vaccinate people with exactly the same antigen (wuhan variant) | 21:34 |
| LjL | lastshell, i think yeah the US (FDA, CDC) will do a 180° on a third shot for everyone even if there is no variant-specific vaccine yet, because they've seen antibodies do wane | 21:34 |
| LjL | enough to infect people, that is | 21:34 |
| nixonix | if you get any symptoms, get yourself tested so that you have evidence of sars2 infection. because without it, there could be problems when you try to get treatment for something that appears later | 21:38 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Germany: +2555 cases (now 3.8 million) since 23 hours ago | 21:38 |
| LjL | nixonix, in theory you can get antibodies against the N protein tested, it'll show an infection even if you got a vaccine | 21:39 |
| LjL | not sure how available they are | 21:39 |
| nixonix | eg leaked slides from new finnish long covid clinic had that if nothing has been found in lab studies, more studies shouldnt be made, because that will lead to nocebo cycle (basically imagined symptoms) | 21:39 |
| nixonix | instead it offered quackery treatment like NLP | 21:39 |
| LjL | NLP? | 21:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: Pretty sharp contrast with the United States, where most airlines won't even require vaccination for their employees. Unable to even get to first base. → https://is.gd/qdpPF7 | 21:40 |
| nixonix | yeah, if they agree to test them, N abs. and if they are still found, within the sensitivity of tests they use. how about year or 5 years later? even 20 | 21:40 |
| nixonix | brainstrom what is NLP | 21:41 |
| LjL | natural language processing is what will come up first | 21:41 |
| LjL | %wik NLP (medicine) | 21:41 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, no such article found on the English Wikipedia | 21:41 |
| LjL | %wik NLP | 21:41 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, specify one of the following: Blindness — National Labour Party (disambiguation) — National Liberal Party (disambiguation) — National Liberation Party (disambiguation) — National Library of the Philippines — Natural-language programming — Natural Law Party (disambiguation) — Natural language processing — Neuro-linguistic programming [... want %more?] | 21:42 |
| LjL | that's going to be long | 21:42 |
| nixonix | Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is a pseudoscientific approach to communication, personal development, and psychotherapy created by Richard Bandler and John Grinder in California, United States, in the 1970s | 21:42 |
| LjL | oh | 21:42 |
| LjL | %wik neuro-linguistic programming | 21:42 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, from English Wikipedia: Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is a pseudoscientific approach to communication, personal development, and psychotherapy created by Richard Bandler and John Grinder in California, United States, in the 1970s. NLP's creators claim there is a connection between neurological processes [... want %more?] → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming | 21:42 |
| nixonix | finnish wiki has flimflam version: | 21:44 |
| nixonix | %tren Neurolingvistinen ohjelmointi (NLP; engl. neuro-linguistic programming[1]) on soveltavan psykologian suuntaus, jonka tavoitteena on parantaa muun muassa ajattelu- ja tunnetaitoja, vuorovaikutustaitoja, tapoja kehittää itseään ja ymmärtää muita | 21:44 |
| nixonix | how does that work again... | 21:44 |
| LjL | %tr <fi Neurolingvistinen ohjelmointi (NLP; engl. neuro-linguistic programming[1]) on soveltavan psykologian suuntaus, jonka tavoitteena on parantaa muun muassa ajattelu- ja tunnetaitoja, vuorovaikutustaitoja, tapoja kehittää itseään ja ymmärtää muita | 21:45 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Finnish to English: Neuro-Linguistic programming (NLP [1]) is a trend in applied psychology that aims to improve, among other things, thinking and emotional skills, interaction skills, ways to develop oneself and understand others. (MyMemory, Google) | 21:45 |
| LjL | in theory it should work with just %tr and it should guess the language but i'm afraid that's usually broken | 21:45 |
| LjL | %tr Neurolingvistinen ohjelmointi (NLP; engl. neuro-linguistic programming[1]) on soveltavan psykologian suuntaus, jonka tavoitteena on parantaa muun muassa ajattelu- ja tunnetaitoja, vuorovaikutustaitoja, tapoja kehittää itseään ja ymmärtää muita | 21:46 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, English to English: Neurolingvistinen ohjelmointi (NLP; engl. neuro-linguistic programming[1]) on soveltavan psykologian suuntaus, jonka tavoitteena on parantaa muun muassa ajattelu- ja tunnetaitoja, vuorovaikutustaitoja, tapoja kehittää itseään ja ymmärtää muita (Google) | 21:46 |
| LjL | i kinda know ohjelmointi from a song | 21:46 |
| LjL | %yt ravistettava ennen käyttöä | 21:46 |
| nixonix | omskaskas reads in finnish cans | 21:47 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, APULANTA - Ravistettava ennen käyttoä: → https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29k4oJqMWXs | 21:47 |
| LjL | omskakas* | 21:47 |
| nixonix | %tr <sv omskaskas | 21:47 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix, Swedish to English: circumcised (MyMemory, Google) | 21:47 |
| LjL | lol | 21:47 |
| LjL | %tr <sv Omskakas. | 21:47 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Swedish to English: Shaken. (MyMemory, Google) — Shake before use (Public_Corpora) | 21:47 |
| LjL | %tr <sv >tr Omskakas. | 21:47 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Swedish to Turkish: Sarsılmış. (MyMemory, Google) | 21:47 |
| LjL | err | 21:48 |
| LjL | i don't know why i wrote tr, i meant fi | 21:48 |
| LjL | %tr <sv >fi Omskakas. | 21:48 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Swedish to Finnish: Ravistellut. (MyMemory, Google) | 21:48 |
| nixonix | why perkele is always the curseword they teach foreigners, when theres a way more used word | 21:49 |
| nixonix | %tr <fi vittu | 21:50 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix, Finnish to English: Cunt (Wikipedia, Wikipedia) — Fuck (MateCat) — fuck (Google) | 21:50 |
| nixonix | yeah, its a combination of both | 21:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: News Scan for Aug 16, 2021: COVID-19 and wildfires Long COVID in ARDS patients COVID-19 saliva testing → https://is.gd/AIpssr | 21:51 |
| nixonix | that melatonin dude would be interested in that redox article, cant remember the nick | 21:52 |
| lastshell | LjL after how many months of the 2nd shot is recommended the 3rd shot ? | 21:54 |
| LjL | Israel is giving it after 6 months | 21:54 |
| lastshell | ty | 21:54 |
| nixonix | imo fda is aware of these open questions (again ref to that short paper mentioned, and immunity lasting, ab affinity maturation etc), and would like more information before deciding when its the best timing for those with normal ab response | 21:58 |
| nixonix | or even if another type of vaccine should be used | 21:58 |
| nixonix | but may give up due to rising breakthroughs and public pressure | 21:58 |
| nixonix | how is the response different with slightly different antigen, but otherwise similar vaccine, like those 617.2 or SA variant versions. or even using another brand for third (2*pfizer and then moderna, or vice versa) | 22:00 |
| ublx | you mean this confidence inspiring message isn't doing it for you? https://khn.org/news/article/pfizer-ceo-albert-bourla-covid-booster-evidence-lacking/view/republish/ | 22:00 |
| LjL | nixonix, because perkele's meaning isn't as vulgar in english | 22:04 |
| nixonix | yeah. but heres example how most under 20 yo speak, and many even after that: vittu ei ollu koffia vittu jotain vitun lahtelaista vaan hylly täynnä vittu. the prevalence in use is maybe 20x perkele | 22:07 |
| nixonix | but heres one of the most popular power combo: perkele vittu saatana | 22:08 |
| LjL | nixonix, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7_pVrIshxA | 22:08 |
| nixonix | nevers seen a bear, even in kuusamo. they hear and smell you, and are aware and keep in the bush, unless you surprise them from behind a mound or something, when the wind isnt in their favor | 22:11 |
| nixonix | in zoos yeah, but in nature | 22:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: Now tracking with Iran, where the fully vaccinated rate is 3.8% → https://is.gd/pwbLPS | 22:12 |
| pwr22 | <LjL> "Peter, "reputation"?" <- A de-centralised way of tracking good / bad people and letting different people subscribe to a different sense of "acceptable" | 22:19 |
| pwr22 | One of the problems with matrix being federated is there is no way to control everything / bad someone from everything | 22:19 |
| nixonix | .title http://www.umutdiyalizmerkezi.com/en/?p=2808 i think i linked another version saying basically the same before, but coulndt find the same source now | 22:20 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.umutdiyalizmerkezi.com: Repeat COVID-19 shots better strategy for variants: BioNTech - Umut Dialysis Center in istanbul | 22:20 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.12.21261952v1 - this was the paper i mentioned above | 22:21 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.medrxiv.org: DECREASED BREADTH OF THE ANTIBODY RESPONSE TO THE SPIKE PROTEIN OF SARS-CoV-2 AFTER VACCINATION | medRxiv | 22:21 |
| nixonix | many of those things behind PASC in that hypothesis we discussed here over year ago, but they prob have more about mechanisms interconnecting them, and their link to PASC | 22:29 |
| nixonix | btw, what does long term sleep deprivation cause in body, also ROS, RNS, stuff like that? | 22:29 |
| nixonix | since sleeping problems are common lc symptoms, and i know they can cause even physical pain, i was just thinking about physiology behind it | 22:30 |
| nixonix | any link from increased adenosine, mitochondria and ATP? | 22:35 |
| nixonix | Sleep deprivation leads to ROS accumulation in the fly and mouse gut | 22:38 |
| dTal | damn you really have to eat well after the vaccine huh | 22:42 |
| dTal | I felt absolutely awful before dinner | 22:43 |
| nixonix | 2020 study, says its likely relevant to humans too. funny it looks like it isnt studied much, on cellular level. something about increased inflammatory cytokines was known before | 22:43 |
| dTal | and now that I'm finished I feel like I could turn around and eat another one | 22:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): nCoV: Investors step back from risk amid worries over China data, Afghanistan | 16AUG21 → https://is.gd/ai4MtG | 22:44 |
| LjL | pwr22, that sounds a bit scary to me | 22:44 |
| dTal | I was surprised to learn that China and Afghanistan have a land border | 22:45 |
| Arsanerit | Result of British Empire geopolitics. | 22:59 |
| Arsanerit | British Empire didn't want to border Czarist Russia so they assigned a strip of no-man's-land to Afghanistan which therefore borders China. | 22:59 |
| nixonix | if you are interested how this variant will spread in schools, the countries testing it first are scandinavia and i think scotland, who are opening or already have, first | 23:00 |
| nixonix | which countries are starting with remote learning? | 23:00 |
| nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/yaneerbaryam/status/1426230661451558913 | 23:02 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Yaneer Bar-Yam (@yaneerbaryam): "Hospitalizations of children in the US continue to grow very rapidly with 1,722 admissions in just the past week. (CDC data) There is no reason to wait to act to stop [...] | 23:02 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Ethiopia: +688 cases (now 289962), +11 deaths (now 4489) since a day ago — France: +35 deaths (now 112747) since 20 hours ago | 23:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: Young kids more likely than older kids to spread COVID-19 to household: Mary Van Beusekom | News Writer | CIDRAP News Aug 16, 2021 Vaccination is key to protect adult household members, an editorial on the study notes. → https://is.gd/MBBEXp | 23:05 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2021/08/13/canada-will-require-air-cruise-and-train-passengers-to-be-vaccinated/ - and also all federal public workers, vax mandatory | 23:07 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.adn.com: Canada will require air, cruise and train passengers to be vaccinated - Anchorage Daily News | 23:07 |
| nixonix | there should be country tables, which things require being vaxed in which country. so theres an idea for a web site. along with hospitalization and icu data for all the possible countries - and now about breakthroughs too | 23:10 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.health.gov.au/news/health-alerts/novel-coronavirus-2019-ncov-health-alert/coronavirus-covid-19-case-numbers-and-statistics | 23:12 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.health.gov.au: Coronavirus (COVID-19) case numbers and statistics | Australian Government Department of Health | 23:12 |
| nixonix | oh btw, i looked information on that bondi junction outside transmission, the only encounter supposedly, that was caught on cctv. it seems it didnt happen, but was inside on cash register | 23:15 |
| nixonix | outside transmissions seem to be almost non-existent, its always toilets or something, where they visited | 23:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): nCoV: Covid 19 coronavirus: Vaccination rates not tracked at Auckland border facility | 16AUG21 → https://is.gd/iqO5Be | 23:16 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Moldova: +200 cases (now 262244), +5 deaths (now 6313), +3853 tests (now 1.5 million) since a day ago — Turkey: +26110 cases (now 6.1 million), +287947 tests (now 72.1 million) since 22 hours ago — Curacao: +32 cases (now 14602), +1 deaths (now 134), +1682 tests (now 211781) since a day ago | 23:30 |
| nixonix | After adjusting for prior SARS-CoV-2 infection, age, and sex, the odds of clinically significant symptoms following either dose were higher among participants who received the Moderna vs the Pfizer vaccine (dose 1: odds ratio [OR], 1.83; 95% CI, 0.96-3.50; dose 2: OR, 2.43; 95% CI, 1.73-3.40) | 23:50 |
| nixonix | what was that paper, couple of days ago here, which had pfizer ab titers higher? maybe it was not adjusted for covariates | 23:55 |
| nixonix | forget the above. i was thinking about abs at the same time, that was about symptoms... | 23:56 |
| nixonix | "Spike IgG antibody measurements were higher in HWs who received the Moderna vaccine, had prior SARS-CoV-2 infection, and reported clinically significant reactions | 23:58 |
| nixonix | .title https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2782821 | 23:59 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From jamanetwork.com: Association of Vaccine Type and Prior SARS-CoV-2 Infection With Symptoms and Antibody Measurements Following Vaccination Among Health Care Workers | Infectious Diseases | JAMA Internal Medicine | JAMA [...] | 23:59 |
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