| * ecks is on a crusade against the concept of subfebrile | 00:02 | |
| archpc | what | 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
| LjL | ecks, everyone is different, *for me* being above 37 correlates very strongly with feeling shit (although i can feel shit with 36.x too) | 00:02 |
| LjL | fwiw in my country having >37.5 is currently grounds for self-quarantining | 00:03 |
| nixonix | Medical definition of subfebrile: of, relating to, or constituting a body temperature very slightly above normal but not febrile | 00:03 |
| archpc | Ah | 00:03 |
| ecks | yes of course you can feel like shit at x degrees but that doesn't mean you have a clinical fever | 00:04 |
| LjL | ecks, but why would 38.0 in particular be the "febrile" threshold? here, it just isn't, in normal medical practice | 00:04 |
| LjL | in other countries it might be | 00:04 |
| LjL | it seems roughly equally arbitrary | 00:04 |
| ecks | everything is arbitrary | 00:05 |
| twomoon | ugh all these new words like febrile | 00:05 |
| ecks | but I'm sure wiser men than me have set the limit for a good reason | 00:05 |
| LjL | okay so the ones in my country are less wise than the ones in your country for setting a different limit? | 00:06 |
| ecks | just like spo2 95% isn't hypoxemia | 00:06 |
| ecks | the specific number is a cause of constant headache | 00:07 |
| ecks | various criteria use different numbers | 00:07 |
| LjL | %tr <it La temperatura corporea normale è compresa tra 36 e 37,2 gradi e complessi meccanismi di regolazione la mantengono entro limiti così ristretti. Generalmente la febbre di per sé non è pericolosa, tranne che a temperature che superano 40 gradi. | 00:07 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Italian to English: Normal body temperature is between 36 and 37.2 degrees and complex regulatory mechanisms keep it within such narrow limits. Fever itself is generally not dangerous, except in temperatures that exceed 40 degrees. (MyMemory, Google) | 00:07 |
| LjL | https://www.humanitas.it/malattie/febbre/ this is from a well-respected hospital here | 00:07 |
| ecks | like the Centor criteria for strep throat use 38.5 i think, so does the AIR score for appendicitis, but i think the septic arthritis in kids score uses 38.0 | 00:08 |
| LjL | you're basically against the idea that anything below the admittedly arbitrary number used by your country can still be a sign of things not being quite right ("subfebrile") | 00:08 |
| LjL | in the face of other countries simply considering the same set of values just "fever" | 00:08 |
| ecks | and for post-stroke care we use 37.5 as threshold for IV antipyretics | 00:08 |
| LjL | if, and since, numbers like these are arbitrary, why doesn't it make sense to consider that if you have 37.9 but there are still reasons to think you may be sick, it counts as a fever even if it's technically <38? | 00:09 |
| LjL | well if different ailments tend to raise temperature to different degrees, that makes sense | 00:09 |
| LjL | but i think it just strengthens what i'm saying... | 00:09 |
| ecks | that's why you have to look at the whole clinical picture | 00:09 |
| ecks | 37.7 without other signs of infection doesn't worry me in the slightest | 00:10 |
| ecks | 37.5 with a productive cough might | 00:10 |
| ecks | but it's very seldom that the temperature itself changes clinical diagnosis and management | 00:10 |
| LjL | but i think you should also look at the individual's baseline. i guarantee i won't have 37.7 unless i'm feeling quite sick | 00:10 |
| LjL | some people may have 37.5 in the normal course of their days, and if it's normal for them, it's normal for them | 00:10 |
| LjL | it's not normal for me or others | 00:11 |
| LjL | (which imo kinda makes it a good idea to *have* a thermometer to know what one's baseline is) | 00:11 |
| ecks | my point is, if you are "subfebrile" i don't pay a lot of attention to it unless there are other signs of something being wrong | 00:12 |
| LjL | in a hospital setting, that may be okay, since you know, whenever i've had between 37 and 38, on the one hand i definitely had *something*, but on the other hand i didn't rush to hospital, i just rushed to bed | 00:13 |
| ecks | I'm mostly talking about a hospital setting, to clarify | 00:14 |
| nixonix | should everyone have pulse oximeter and thermometer during these rona times? | 00:14 |
| ecks | i mean, depends on how you expect it to change your approach to things | 00:15 |
| LjL | nixonix, i think i've given my extensive opinion on that :P | 00:15 |
| ecks | if i get covid and dyspnea I'm going to the hospital regardless of what the oximeter shows | 00:15 |
| ecks | dyspnea always needs some sort of work-up | 00:16 |
| LjL | ecks, in my opinion, *calling* hospitals (especially in times of crisis) or your doctor and being able to say "my saturation is 83%" can be important for their decision of whether to tell you to stay home or not. in archpc's case, before he had an oximeter, the hospitals all told him to stay home because they couldn't take him. i'd be curious if that changes with an oximeter reading | 00:17 |
| LjL | ecks, and dyspnea... last night i asked him to count his breaths, and he said 40. but at the same time, my understanding is that while he was generally feeling shit, he wasn't particularly feeling dyspnea | 00:17 |
| ecks | i guess it depends on where you live | 00:18 |
| LjL | ecks, i presume you're familiar with this phenomenon of "happy hypoxia" that appears to happen in some cases of COVID? | 00:18 |
| LjL | anywhere you live is likely to have a surge sooner or later | 00:18 |
| LjL | if it's not now, it's... later when amazon will be out of oximeters | 00:18 |
| LjL | i bought oximeters for my extended family in 2020 and paid them like 3x their normal cost | 00:18 |
| ecks | yeah, I'm familiar | 00:19 |
| ecks | but you bet I'm going to the hospital if i get dyspnea even if the oximeter says 96% | 00:19 |
| nixonix | we all get it, vaccinated or not (if not dying before it). within year probably, outside asia and some islands | 00:19 |
| ecks | particularly with covid and its clotting tendencies | 00:20 |
| LjL | nixonix, hey YOU get it! | 00:20 |
| LjL | speak for thine own self | 00:20 |
| nixonix | its estimated, if just let it rip, 10 weeks | 00:21 |
| LjL | ecks, okay, but what if you *don't* feel like you have dyspnea, but it reads 85% | 00:21 |
| LjL | (consistently) | 00:21 |
| ecks | if i was feeling perfectly fine otherwise I'm not sure I'd do anything with the information | 00:22 |
| LjL | nixonix, i don't think that would happen by "just letting it rip". i'm not convinced the waves have been stopped by restrictions. our current wave is starting to go down, but we have *no* restrictions. the UK's wave started going down before they changed anything (granted, then it kind of went back up for a bit) | 00:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: The UK has achieved suppression of hospitalizations by 75% and deaths by 90% in their Delta wave compared with Alpha.A whole different look in the USUK, by @PaulMainwood US, by @PeterJ_Walker Differences in mitigation measures, vaccination rates, and other factors..... → https://is.gd/em3opz | 00:22 |
| ecks | (in fact i wouldn't be taking my saturation if i was feeling perfectly fine because you NEVER want any information you don't require right now) | 00:22 |
| LjL | i guess i'll agreeably disagree | 00:23 |
| dTal | um | 00:23 |
| ecks | it's kinda like ordering labs | 00:23 |
| dTal | what does "you NEVER want any information you don't require right now" mean | 00:23 |
| ecks | when i started medical school i wanted to order everything | 00:23 |
| dTal | isn't that kind of tautological | 00:23 |
| ecks | now i order as little as possible | 00:23 |
| dTal | how do you know if you require it or not | 00:23 |
| ecks | you don't want to find anything strange | 00:23 |
| ecks | like many of my attendings have said, "can't have a fever if you don't take their temp" | 00:24 |
| dTal | ...which is clearly insane | 00:24 |
| LjL | dTal, ecks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNzQ_sLGIuA relevant, kinda | 00:24 |
| nixonix | people still avoid inside spaces with people. but there are restrictions everywhere in the west, according to owid. 39.81 in finland. italy is 10 days old, 50 | 00:25 |
| ecks | everyone wants to order ALL the blood work and diagnostics without asking themselves why and what they'll do with it | 00:25 |
| dTal | there is some sort of principle in play, where additional true information can give you a less accurate picture because of sampling bias | 00:25 |
| nixonix | not sure how accurately they consider different regional restrictions, though, for bigger countries (they didnt for us) | 00:25 |
| ecks | it's like ordering a CRP on the day of intended discharge | 00:26 |
| dTal | but I don't think that generalizes to putting your fingers in your ears and going out of your way to avoid potentially relevant information | 00:26 |
| ecks | major error | 00:26 |
| dTal | well now I understand some of the malpractice and negligence I've seen in medicine a bit better | 00:27 |
| * archpc grabs popcorn | 00:27 | |
| ecks | it's so ingrained in medicine to order everything | 00:27 |
| nixonix | ok thats it, ill never have that rectal probe. i dont want to know if theres something funny | 00:28 |
| ecks | just a routine to order CRP+electrolytes+CBC+vitals x4 on everyone | 00:28 |
| ecks | insanity | 00:28 |
| dTal | ecks, I vaguely get where you're coming from but I think it's leading you to a perverse conclusion | 00:29 |
| nixonix | mammography, i think they do those screenings in many country (mostly false positives, thats what ive read from finnish papers) | 00:29 |
| ecks | then you get a sodium at 134 and the reference is 137-145 or whatever | 00:29 |
| LjL | dTal, i.e. not having nixonix's rectal probe? | 00:29 |
| nixonix | countries | 00:29 |
| archpc | Funny enough, a test I didn't think I needee may have saved my life a few months back | 00:29 |
| dTal | ecks, what about looking - should doctors look at the patient | 00:30 |
| dTal | should the patient be allowed to speak? | 00:30 |
| dTal | pulse? | 00:30 |
| ecks | yes that's generally preferable and also cheaper than ordering blood work | 00:30 |
| dTal | where do you draw the line on information collection? | 00:30 |
| ecks | history >>> daily CRO | 00:30 |
| ecks | CRP* | 00:30 |
| LjL | ecks, my mom is known to have panic attacks, so we thought it was a panic attack, likely the ER thought it was a panic attack, but when the bloodwork came up, she had severe hypokalemia (which we later realized was probably due to carbamazepine, but the ER didn't seem to think that was a red flag or anything when she mentioned taking it) | 00:31 |
| dTal | but they're not exclusive, why not both | 00:31 |
| ecks | plus CRP is garbage | 00:31 |
| dTal | why not as much info as you can gathe | 00:31 |
| ecks | because everything costs | 00:31 |
| dTal | so you're not really complaining about medical malpractice so much as money | 00:31 |
| ecks | it's not just that | 00:31 |
| LjL | hyponatremia* actually | 00:31 |
| LjL | always mix the mup | 00:31 |
| ecks | all medical procedures carry a risk | 00:31 |
| LjL | in fact they discharged her without *telling* her anything about the carbamazepine, they just replenished her sodium until she wasn't dying much anymore | 00:32 |
| ecks | that includes blood draws | 00:32 |
| ecks | of course in an emergent setting it's more important to get a better picture | 00:33 |
| ecks | hence why everyone who enters a 200m radius of the ER gets blood drawn pretty much | 00:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: Our covid times :-)by @MatttDavies → https://is.gd/0KCmRA | 00:33 |
| LjL | and yet based on your attitude to all this now, i am utterly *not* surprised at how her emergent picture was treated | 00:33 |
| nixonix | why is medicare in usa that expensive, mostly due to doctors high salaries, all unnecessary labwork, insurance issues? | 00:33 |
| LjL | at least i'm glad they *did* draw blood | 00:33 |
| LjL | maybe you wouldn't have | 00:33 |
| dTal | okay but you didn't say "often blood draws are unneccesary", you said "you NEVER want any information you don't require right now" | 00:34 |
| ecks | like I said it's different in the ER, of course | 00:34 |
| dTal | which seems like an indefensible attitude | 00:34 |
| ecks | i mean, if i i don't require X right now, why would i order it | 00:34 |
| nixonix | i meant "medical care", not "medicare" | 00:35 |
| dTal | That's what I mean, it's either tautological or negligent | 00:35 |
| dTal | you should be thinking of tests you can run to get to the bottom of what's going on, that's your job | 00:35 |
| archpc | nixonix insurance company profits | 00:35 |
| dTal | sure you weigh up the cost benefit, granted | 00:36 |
| ecks | i could order CTA chest on everyone but it's not very good medicine | 00:36 |
| dTal | you said "can't have a fever if you don't take their temperature". What potential complications are associated with taking someone's temperature? | 00:36 |
| ecks | i could order everything the lab has but what for | 00:36 |
| ecks | extensive and unnecessary workup, extended hospital stay leading to actual complications | 00:37 |
| dTal | what's "workup"? | 00:37 |
| ecks | like trying to find out why they have a fever | 00:37 |
| dTal | gee, what a tragedy that would be | 00:37 |
| dTal | imagine the inconvenience | 00:38 |
| ecks | yes, and then the CRP comes back at some gray zone value of say 40 | 00:38 |
| ecks | and you have no suspected infection focus | 00:38 |
| ecks | then what? | 00:38 |
| dTal | I really don't get it. You're saying it's better not to take someone's temperature because it would be a pain in the ass if they had a fever | 00:38 |
| ecks | chest x-ray? urine culture? | 00:38 |
| dTal | and they might need to stay in the hospital longer | 00:39 |
| ecks | if they were otherwise well then it's better not to take the temp | 00:39 |
| ecks | avoid vitals and labs on day of discharge | 00:39 |
| dTal | is staying in the hospital longer if they have a fever is in their best interests? | 00:39 |
| ecks | it inevitably leads to extended stay | 00:39 |
| archpc | Isn’t temperature like the thing every doctor takes no matter what | 00:40 |
| ecks | absolutely not, nosocomial infections suck | 00:40 |
| dTal | so why make them stay? | 00:40 |
| ecks | what do you mean? | 00:40 |
| dTal | if you take their temp, and they have a fever, you're saying they'd be kept in the hospital even though it's not in their best interest, and therefore it's better not to take their temperature | 00:41 |
| dTal | but why? | 00:41 |
| dTal | surely you should be acting in their best medical interest regardless of what information you have | 00:41 |
| ecks | because everyone is upset when you send home a patient with a temp of 37.7 and a CRP of 40 | 00:41 |
| dTal | Ah. And why are they upset? Is that unreasonable? | 00:42 |
| ecks | so you have to do a work-up and now they're staying for another 3 days and suddenly they have hospital-acquired pneumonia | 00:42 |
| ecks | boom 7 additional days on tazocin | 00:42 |
| nixonix | better have your own thermometer and pulse oximeter, so they dont send you home too early... and maybe a chinese bloodwork kit from ebay, hmm | 00:43 |
| archpc | Hahaha | 00:43 |
| dTal | So why are people upset when you send home feverish people? | 00:43 |
| dTal | Since hospitals are so risky. | 00:44 |
| ecks | because people don't know shit about medicine mostly | 00:44 |
| dTal | I assumed we were talking about the hospital employees whose decision this is. | 00:44 |
| ecks | you would NEVER admit a patient for having a temp of 37.7 and CRP 40 who is otherwise stable and doing well | 00:44 |
| ecks | but if they're already admitted it's a whole another issue | 00:45 |
| LjL | it sounds like the issue you're highlighting is with silly bureaucracy | 00:45 |
| dTal | Why are the standards different? | 00:45 |
| LjL | but instead of solving the bureaucracy you want to "solve" it by not taking readings | 00:45 |
| archpc | I am enjoying this morning reading | 00:45 |
| ecks | because the second you admit someone, everything becomes your problem | 00:45 |
| LjL | to be fair, it's probably not possible for you alone to solve the bureaucratic oddities, but still | 00:46 |
| dTal | See, it sounded like you were talking about some sort of general principle | 00:47 |
| LjL | archpc, i'm glad you're being entertained, although i still think you should see a doctor :P have you at least talked to your doctor this morning? | 00:47 |
| archpc | Yeah I called my PMP | 00:47 |
| dTal | "you NEVER want any information you don't require right now" | 00:47 |
| ecks | There's a good quote i read somewhere | 00:47 |
| ecks | "a good doctor does as little as possible, as long as possible" | 00:47 |
| dTal | not "be careful what tests you do because it can trigger an annoying and counterproductive hospital beaurocracy" | 00:47 |
| ecks | that's basically clinical medicine in a nutshell" | 00:48 |
| dTal | TIL I'm a good doctor | 00:48 |
| LjL | archpc, what did they say? that you shouldn't listen to internet people shilling pulse oximeters? | 00:48 |
| nixonix | i think it was for post office workers (bukowski) | 00:48 |
| ecks | in the emergency setting it's a bit different of course | 00:48 |
| ecks | then you want a lot of information right now even if you don't know what to do with it | 00:49 |
| ecks | hence why the ER (rightfully) orders routine labs on mostly everyone | 00:49 |
| archpc | Of course, but no, the hospital in our rinky small town is *full* so I can’t be seen there, the nearest big hospital is too understaffed, my best bet is to go to Charlotte or Raleigh, but I may be turned away | 00:50 |
| LjL | :\ | 00:50 |
| ecks | but in the outpatient setting in particular, don't order anything you don't know what you're gonna do with" | 00:50 |
| nixonix | note to myself, always to ER instead of appointment, if suspecting something serious enough | 00:50 |
| ecks | i mean there's a huge debate about the utility of screening programs | 00:50 |
| ecks | like PSA, the prostate cancer market | 00:51 |
| ecks | marker* | 00:51 |
| nixonix | mammography | 00:51 |
| ecks | of course i can order a PSA on every man who turns 60 | 00:51 |
| LjL | i think that's a bit different from what you're saying though, it's a lot more like what that youtube doctor's video talks about, and i understand the conundrum | 00:51 |
| archpc | Basically the medical infrastructure here is buckling like everyone predicted, but yet nothing would be done so people are being denied care at the systems fault which is disgusting | 00:51 |
| LjL | but you're taking it a bit too... i dunno, dTal clearly thinks you're taking too "a bit i dunno" as well | 00:51 |
| ecks | but it's not that simple | 00:51 |
| ecks | labs aren't black and white | 00:51 |
| nixonix | i read, cant remember which country, people were worried they coulnt get their mammography because of epidemic | 00:51 |
| ecks | mammography would probably not get approved today if it was introduced as screening | 00:52 |
| ecks | but it's political suicide to suggest its removal | 00:52 |
| LjL | nixonix, it's been stressed a lot here, actually, the estimated amount of people whose unscreened cancers went past the treatable stage due to the pandemic. true, arguable, i dunno, but it certainly has been said by Real Doctors™ (while probably other Real Doctors™ were shaking their heads) | 00:53 |
| nixonix | how about those rectal probes? not needed? thats what i thought | 00:53 |
| ecks | at least in Sweden screening coloscopy is iirc being studied in certain regions | 00:53 |
| ecks | and screening fecal hemoglobin | 00:53 |
| LjL | we do fecal hemoglobin | 00:54 |
| nixonix | studied, meaning unnecessary or not? | 00:54 |
| dTal | archpc: :/ | 00:54 |
| ecks | that's what they're trying to find out | 00:54 |
| ecks | is it cost-efficient or not | 00:54 |
| ecks | PSA screening doesn't seem to be | 00:54 |
| ecks | mammography probably not either | 00:55 |
| LjL | the thing with PSA screening is a lot of people's prostate cancers never really get out of the prostate, or give meaningful symptoms | 00:55 |
| dTal | archpc: can you phone the hospital and tell them your situation? They might triage you if you tell them your O2 reading | 00:55 |
| LjL | but if you find them with PSA, then you need to do a biopsy later | 00:55 |
| LjL | and if you do a biopsy, then you may actually cause metastases potentially | 00:55 |
| LjL | mammography... not sure if similar, i'd think a bit different | 00:55 |
| ecks | i think when it comes to mammography it's more about the cost | 00:56 |
| archpc | Yeah but I’m not sure what good it will do given how cluster fucked it is right now | 00:56 |
| LjL | dTal, that's kinda why i told him to get a pulse oximeter in the first place ;( but i dunno, if his GP isn't telling him to do that in the first place... | 00:56 |
| ecks | when it comes to prostate cancer it's not the spreading that's the problem, it's the complications of a rectal biopsy and the complications of curative treatment | 00:57 |
| nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/itosettiMD_MBA/status/1421480214442426369 | 00:57 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Irene Tosetti (@itosettiMD_MBA): "Please get a pulse oximeter and check once a day especially from day 5 to 10th from onset of symptoms" | 42l - nitter | 00:57 |
| LjL | nixonix, who is this Tosetti anyway? like Topol is clearly a known name, but she just seems like a random MD who's very active on twitter. not saying all argument should be from authority, just wondering if there's any particular reason you cite her so often :P | 00:58 |
| ecks | PSA screening does seem to reduce mortality in prostate cancer but not all-cause mortality | 00:58 |
| dTal | archpc, I'd say it's worth a try. If you do turn out to need medical attention, calling sooner rather than later always works in your favor. | 00:58 |
| nixonix | idk. she's spicy | 00:59 |
| Jbwncster | https://www.npr.org/sections/back-to-school-live-updates/2021/08/23/1030277164/states-blocking-school-mask-mandates-could-face-civil-rights-probes-official-say?ft=nprml&f=1014 | 00:59 |
| archpc | Oh lord | 00:59 |
| nixonix | she posted information on israel, so i started checking her account | 01:00 |
| nixonix | also good rumors, like about us full approval, and pfizer early results from kid trials coming in a week or two from now (tosetti) | 01:02 |
| archpc | You mean Squidward tortellini right | 01:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from Derek Lowe: @ScottGottliebMD: RT by @Dereklowe: http://Nature.com on the long scientific path to developing today’s mRNA vaccines; marked by years of careful work, discoveries, and major milestones. h/t @EricTopol https://www.nature.com/articles/s41578-021-00358-0 → https://is.gd/uvJtlj | 01:17 |
| nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1429533184065040384 | 01:21 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "This table summarizes how extensive mRNA testing has been for 7 other infectious diseases, cancers, and genetic disorders. And while published this month, still not up-to- [...] | 01:21 |
| nixonix | comments were interesting too (i only read about 20 first yet): | 01:23 |
| nixonix | .title https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/08/16/a-new-antibody-dependent-enhancement-hypothesis | 01:23 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From blogs.sciencemag.org: A New Antibody-Dependent Enhancement Hypothesis | In the Pipeline | 01:23 |
| nixonix | apparently thats something new what antivaxers are throwing me with, that study mentioned, when i return to argue with them | 01:24 |
| pwr22 | Hey archpc, how're you feeling today? | 01:25 |
| archpc | Shit | 01:30 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.09.21261554v1.full in case i didnt post this here already another day | 01:30 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.medrxiv.org: Progress of the Delta variant and erosion of vaccine effectiveness, a warning from Utah | medRxiv | 01:30 |
| pwr22 | archpc: the same shitness as before? Has there been any change in the shitness level one way or the other 😀 ? | 01:39 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Uganda: +21324 cases (now 118777) since 4 days ago — Benin: +1838 cases (now 12021), +6 deaths (now 125) since 5 days ago — Tunisia: +1891 cases (now 642788), +72 deaths (now 22609), +9912 tests (now 2.5 million) since a day ago — Ecuador: +738 cases (now 495853), +29294 tests (now 1.7 million) since 3 days ago | 01:39 |
| archpc | Well I’m not sure how far back you read but my spO2 dropped to the low 80s | 01:40 |
| lastshell | go to a hospital riight now archpc | 01:40 |
| pwr22 | archpc: yeah that sounds like "phone 911" time to me - worst case scenario they just say "no that's not a concern to us" | 01:42 |
| pwr22 | I was more getting at how you feel in yourself though rather than what your O2 sats say | 01:42 |
| archpc | EMS is on the way | 02:01 |
| archpc | Not sure exactly it’ll accomplish but it’s better than this | 02:03 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Canada: +1317 cases (now 1.5 million) since 23 hours ago — Botswana: +100 cases (now 146561), +17 deaths (now 2098), +16689 tests (now 1.6 million) since 3 days ago — Germany: +3714 cases (now 3.9 million) since 14 hours ago — France: +221 deaths (now 113606) since 23 hours ago | 02:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Excessive eating and weight gain:A rare post-acute COVID-19 syndrome → https://is.gd/MB4fQS | 02:10 |
| pwr22 | archpc: that's good. Will be good to have a medical professional give you their opinions 👍️ | 02:11 |
| pwr22 | Hope they can do something to help you out | 02:11 |
| LjL | archpc, oh. hope you find nice people and it works out okay | 02:15 |
| LjL | let us know | 02:15 |
| archpc | I will, there still like 10 minutes out | 02:16 |
| LjL | archpc, what did they sound like when you called? i suppose just uh mechanical, if you called 911 and just talked to an operator | 02:17 |
| dTal | archpc, glad to hear you're getting medical attention. Not glad you need it, but at least you'll be in safe hands. | 02:18 |
| archpc | what do you mean, I called 911, and explained my blood oxygen level and my symptoms | 02:19 |
| LjL | archpc, yeah, i'm just curious about their reaction about that, whether it was more like "we're sending an ambulance right away" or "meh, if it makes you feel better, we'll send someone", or somewhere in between | 02:20 |
| archpc | oh, the former | 02:20 |
| LjL | you know, despite insisting that with oxygen saturation readings you could tell medical services and they'd probably more easily realize it's serious, i haven't *done* that, and i haven't even had someone in this channel do it before, so i'm curious :P | 02:21 |
| LjL | i like my covid knowledge to stay theoretical and second-hand | 02:21 |
| LjL | i'm sure you can see why | 02:21 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Fr. Polynesia: +2745 cases (now 39117), +54 deaths (now 311) since 2 days ago — Netherlands: +2459 cases (now 1.9 million), +5 deaths (now 18116) since 23 hours ago — United Kingdom: +44 deaths (now 131819) since 23 hours ago | 02:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: ‘We’re in big trouble’: Doctors worry Canada’s 4th wave of COVID-19 could be biggest yet → https://is.gd/6QdyFF | 02:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from https://covid19.specops.network : ljl-covid: Add prominent link to the Zotero group → https://is.gd/iTw7ew | 02:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: R to @EricTopol: Another mandate, Chicago.And when to we follow suit with Canada to require vaccination for all air and rail passengers? → https://is.gd/hzJSTu | 02:53 |
| pwr22 | Will archpc be able to get on IRC from hospital? | 02:57 |
| archpc | I’m on my phone, as I always am | 02:57 |
| pwr22 | Ah, how's it going? | 02:58 |
| Jbwncster | Did you get your comirnaty? | 03:02 |
| LjL | Jbwncster, he had Moderna, and he also had COVID before | 03:03 |
| LjL | aaaaand the world's luckiest person award doesn't go to... | 03:04 |
| LjL | any of us here, statistically speaking | 03:04 |
| Jbwncster | Do you know what comirnaty is? | 03:04 |
| LjL | uh, a vaccine? | 03:05 |
| Jbwncster | It’s the new name for the Pfizer vaccine | 03:05 |
| Jbwncster | The Pfizer–BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine, sold under the brand name Comirnaty | 03:06 |
| LjL | it's not very new | 03:06 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for French Guiana: +392 cases (now 33452), +3 deaths (now 207), +3507 tests (now 350852) since 3 days ago — Trinidad and Tobago: +14 cases (now 43047), +2 deaths (now 1227), +366 tests (now 297206) since a day ago | 03:06 |
| LjL | Jbwncster, https://github.com/ljl-covid/links#pfizer-biontech-bnt162b2-or-comirnaty | 03:07 |
| pwr22 | Good lord that's a terrible name | 03:07 |
| Jbwncster | Yep | 03:07 |
| LjL | ikr | 03:07 |
| pwr22 | Looks like a random jumble of letters on the UK tv show "Countdown" | 03:07 |
| LjL | also i always have it in mind as Cominarty | 03:09 |
| LjL | and either way it sounds russian so i bet most people would think that's the same as Sputnik or something | 03:10 |
| * pwr22 uploaded an image: (407KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/shortestpath.dev/UtIVnPWaPFwYeouHevnEOWKp/image.png > | 03:10 | |
| pwr22 | Pretty sure this is how they named that | 03:10 |
| LjL | archpc, err i'm being reminded... that this is in the US... so can i presume you have an insurance and it covers ambulance? | 03:12 |
| Jbwncster | Partial coverage probably | 03:12 |
| archpc | i got laid off, 0 insurance | 03:12 |
| Jbwncster | Ambulances can cost up to $40,000 | 03:12 |
| LjL | :| | 03:13 |
| Jbwncster | And hospital stays over night can be $1000+ | 03:14 |
| Jbwncster | My mom broke her leg and the bill was 12,000 | 03:14 |
| Jbwncster | And her portion was 1200 | 03:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Top epidemiologist resigns from Ontario's COVID-19 science table, alleges withholding of 'grim' projections - Doctor says fall modelling not being shared in 'transparent manner with the public' → https://is.gd/PCcq94 | 03:14 |
| pwr22 | oh ffs US didn't obama fix this for emergency medicine? | 03:15 |
| Spec_ | lolno | 03:15 |
| pwr22 | Also people in the US have to fear losing their jobs at any point enough, let alone literally tying their health to it | 03:15 |
| pwr22 | and then making health something that can financially ruin you | 03:16 |
| pwr22 | 🤦♂️ | 03:16 |
| LjL | pwr22, "if it makes you feel any better", there are EU countries where no job equals no health coverage, too ;( | 03:16 |
| pwr22 | It makes me think less of more places but I don't feel better 😛 | 03:17 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: A reminder about Ivermectin, the anti-parasite pill that in Mississippi accounts for 70% of recent calls to its poison control centerhttps://www.npr.org/2021/08/23/1030208101/mississippi-livestock-drug-ivermectin-covid-misinformationThe main study supporting its use had to be withdrawn due to "plagiarism and data [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/yBsCUC | 03:25 |
| archpc | Well, ems came and did my vitals, talked to me for a bit but there isn’t anywhere to take me | 03:27 |
| LjL | oh jesus | 03:29 |
| archpc | yeah | 03:29 |
| pwr22 | What did they say about your sats? | 03:30 |
| pwr22 | Surely they can't be too worried if they're leaving you at home? | 03:30 |
| dTal | as opposed to what | 03:31 |
| pwr22 | I.e. non-emergent | 03:31 |
| archpc | “Concerning” | 03:31 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Costa Rica: +4795 cases (now 445442), +49 deaths (now 5361) since 2 days ago — Bulgaria: +1891 cases (now 443186), +57 deaths (now 18532) since a day ago — Egypt: +189 cases (now 286541), +5 deaths (now 16676) since 23 hours ago — Congo: +95 cases (now 13493) since 6 days ago | 03:31 |
| pwr22 | I'm sure there is somehow room if emergent | 03:31 |
| dTal | I mean yeah it's concerning, that's why you called em | 03:32 |
| dTal | did they corroborate your o2 sat with their fancy machines | 03:33 |
| archpc | Yeah | 03:33 |
| LjL | archpc, what did they measure? | 03:34 |
| archpc | spO2, heart rate, breathing, the pupil thing, that’s about it | 03:35 |
| LjL | archpc, what is this going to cost? i wasn't exactly focusing on the US... "system" all through the past few days | 03:37 |
| archpc | I don’t know or particularly care | 03:38 |
| dTal | good man | 03:38 |
| archpc | I’ve got so many medical bills that it’s just going to the inch thick stack on my desk | 03:38 |
| dTal | worry about that later | 03:38 |
| archpc | Well, I’m never paying it so | 03:39 |
| dTal | or never, never also works :p | 03:39 |
| archpc | also, groundskeeper came up right behind ems and heckled me over rent because the roommate and I have been laid off and gotten covid and all that, as I’m trying to speak without dying | 03:45 |
| dTal | classy | 03:46 |
| archpc | probably the scummiest thing I’ve seen in a while | 03:46 |
| pwr22 | Shit | 03:47 |
| archpc | That was a bit tmi, sorry :| | 03:49 |
| pwr22 | No worries, sorry you're having a bad time ☹️ | 03:51 |
| pwr22 | Who the fuck comes up behind an ambulance in a pandemic and demands rent rather than saying "are you ok?" | 03:52 |
| archpc | Landlords | 03:52 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for United Kingdom: +23757 cases (now 6.5 million), +30 deaths (now 131829) since 20 hours ago — Gabon: +50 cases (now 25717) since 3 days ago — South Korea: +1505 cases (now 239287), +6 deaths (now 2228), +55729 tests (now 12.7 million) since a day ago — France: +8199 cases (now 6.7 million), +228 deaths (now 113624) since 20 hours ago | 04:33 |
| archpc | I’m going to try and go watch some YouTube or read something, have a good night/day | 04:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: Video of #SARSCoV2 infecting brain cells (gray blobs) with cell fusion, hijacking, and explosive release of copies for more invasionshttps://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/22/science/microscopic-bat-brain-virus.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimesscience @NYTScience @AndrewJacobsNYT by @aicher_sophie and @Delphine_Planas [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/UO35nx | 05:02 |
| LjL | archpc, goodnight. sorry you ended up basically just waiting your time calling emergency. | 05:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Pfizer Covid-19 becomes FDA approved!! Coincidentally... Pfizer stocks goes as well! → https://is.gd/KQEEPx | 05:13 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Ecuador: +2875 cases (now 498728), +107 deaths (now 32092) since 3 hours ago — Bolivia: +488 cases (now 487131), +11 deaths (now 18313), +5762 tests (now 2.2 million) since a day ago | 05:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Oregon, once a coronavirus success story, struggles with surge → https://is.gd/fmKX9D | 05:45 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Belgium: +4876 cases (now 1.2 million), +21 deaths (now 25341), +119909 tests (now 18.4 million) since 2 days ago — Pakistan: +4075 cases (now 1.1 million), +91 deaths (now 25094), +59943 tests (now 17.3 million) since a day ago | 06:00 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Honduras: +2861 cases (now 329691), +76 deaths (now 8670), +7021 tests (now 952984) since 3 days ago — Germany: +162 deaths (now 92334) since 19 hours ago | 06:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: US covid hospitalizations reached nearly 96,000 today.That's 74% of pandemic peak, despite some recent reduction in rate of risehttps://newsnodes.com/us → https://is.gd/jGEQGt | 06:38 |
| archpc | how are you guys holding up | 07:16 |
| twomoon | i'm barely hanging on mentally | 07:27 |
| archpc | same here :D | 07:33 |
| twomoon | and rent prices are gonna be soaring for next year | 07:37 |
| archpc | good luck filling those | 07:38 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Georgia, United States: +21072 cases (now 1.3 million), +64 deaths (now 22263) since 3 days ago — Tennessee, United States: +20249 cases (now 997479), +62 deaths (now 13197) since 3 days ago — North Carolina, United States: +16924 cases (now 1.2 million), +61 deaths (now 14120) since 3 days ago [... want %more?] | 07:40 |
| archpc | Almost 17000 cases in 3 days? Am I interpreting this correct | 07:40 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Cambodia: +466 cases (now 90107), +13 deaths (now 1821), +7418 tests (now 2.1 million) since 23 hours ago — Kyrgyzstan: +199 cases (now 174347), +5 deaths (now 2494), +4322 tests (now 1.6 million) since 22 hours ago | 08:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid-19 vaccine was tested on Myanmar military personnel without their consent—sources → https://is.gd/5pRJYk | 08:26 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Sint Maarten: +78 cases (now 3472), +1 deaths (now 43) since 3 days ago — Peru: +412 cases (now 2.1 million), +42 deaths (now 197921), +17194 tests (now 16.4 million) since a day ago | 08:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: Human medicine assessment reports: (news): Human medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): Spikevax (previously COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna), COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine (nucleoside modified), COVID-19 virus infection, Date of authorisation: 06/01/2021, Revision: 11, Status: Authorised → https://is.gd/OpE38w | 08:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | August 24, 2021: Please refer to our Wiki for more information on COVID-19 and our sub. You can find answers to frequently asked questions in our FAQ , where there is valuable information such as our: → https://is.gd/EI52wO | 09:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Caught in the crossfire over COVID’s origins → https://is.gd/AFwXcA | 09:20 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Mizoram, India: +845 cases (now 53317) since a day ago — Estonia: +374 cases (now 139500), +1186 vaccines (now 707850), +4915 tests (now 1.7 million) since 23 hours ago — Tripura, India: +165 cases (now 82260), +3 deaths (now 790) since a day ago — Armenia: +537 cases (now 238422), +6 deaths (now 4768), +6559 tests (now 1.5 million) since 23 hours ago | 10:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: To boost Covid-19 vaccine uptake, one health system hunts for patients who fell through the cracks: Researchers found patients who might've missed online messages about Covid-19 vaccines and called them one by one. More than 100 got a shot or scheduled an appointment. → https://is.gd/MM2JeU | 10:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: Why Pfizer's FDA Approval Matters And What It Means For Vaccine Mandates: The FDA announced the Pfizer vaccine is the first in the U.S. that is now fully approved. Here's what that means for vaccine mandates and convincing vaccine-hesitant people to get vaccinated. → https://is.gd/NQMslM | 11:10 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Russia: +18833 cases (now 6.8 million), +794 deaths (now 177614), +200000 tests (now 175.7 million) since a day ago — Poland: +232 cases (now 2.9 million), +8 deaths (now 75324) since a day ago — Israel: +8750 cases (now 1.0 million), +12 deaths (now 6864), +152614 tests (now 18.6 million) since 20 hours ago | 11:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Covid-19: Which countries are doing well on test and trace—and how can we tell?: Research by Imperial College London suggests effective test, trace, and isolate systems could reduce the reproductive rate of SARS-CoV-2 by 26%.1 Yet different countries have had wildly different... → https://is.gd/ZLeal7 | 11:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express (Health): Health: Prone positioning can prevent need for ventilation in Covid-19 patients: Lancet study → https://is.gd/7KYutH | 12:15 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Slovenia: +477 cases (now 264141), +1 deaths (now 4442) since 22 hours ago — Latvia: +169 cases (now 141287), +9915 tests (now 3.3 million) since a day ago — Germany: +3402 cases (now 3.9 million) since 22 hours ago | 12:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from Scientific American: COVID Vaccines Show No Signs of Harming Fertility or Sexual Function: Pregnant woman receives a dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine against COVID-19 at a vaccination center in Bogotá, Colombia, on July 23, 2021. → https://is.gd/TAp5T7 | 12:58 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Romania: +782 cases (now 1.1 million), +14 deaths (now 34439), +40125 tests (now 11.2 million) since 23 hours ago — Eq. Guinea: +47 cases (now 9096), +3403 tests (now 190922) since 3 days ago — UAE: +990 cases (now 711428), +2 deaths (now 2026), +325118 tests (now 72.5 million) since 22 hours ago — Hong Kong: +7 cases (now 12070) since a day ago | 13:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): China_Flu: New Zealand records another 41 Covid cases as it braces for biggest outbreak of pandemic | New Zealand → https://is.gd/WFZ14u | 13:20 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Timor-Leste: +532 cases (now 14935), +2 deaths (now 51) since 22 hours ago — Laos: +336 cases (now 12957), +2342 tests (now 362959) since 22 hours ago | 13:40 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Palestine: +1570 cases (now 329204), +4 deaths (now 3646) since 22 hours ago — Malaysia: +20837 cases (now 1.6 million), +211 deaths (now 14553), +266366 tests (now 21.7 million) since a day ago — Afghanistan: +62 cases (now 152722), +7 deaths (now 7090), +503 tests (now 749257) since 22 hours ago — Gibraltar: +9 cases (now 5299), +1280 tests (now 331685) since a day ago | 14:05 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Switzerland: +9217 cases (now 761978), +9 deaths (now 10953), +22916 tests (now 9.6 million) since 23 hours ago — Nepal: +2020 cases (now 751001), +35 deaths (now 10568), +9909 tests (now 3.8 million) since 22 hours ago | 14:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: What's new: News: Increase in vaccine manufacturing capacity for COVID-19 vaccines from BioNTech / Pfizer and Moderna → https://is.gd/qasFR0 | 14:36 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Denmark: +947 cases (now 339121), +179145 tests (now 80.0 million) since 22 hours ago | 15:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Worlds 6th largest semiconductor manufacturer, Texas Instruments, Requiring All U.S. Employees to Get COVID-19 Vaccine → https://is.gd/69H2KF | 15:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from Emma Hodcroft: @firefoxx66: Great to be on @BloombergTV @markets with @adsteel & @GuyJohnsonTV again yesterday - answering excellent questions on FDA approval, the global view on booster shots, the importance of behaviour, travel restrictions & school [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/Z8Resw | 15:37 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Belarus: +860 cases (now 471495), +10 deaths (now 3701), +5786 tests (now 7.7 million) since a day ago | 15:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from Emma Hodcroft: @firefoxx66: As well as transmissibility, we've seen reopening - what's important & do we need restrictions again?Our behaviour gives the virus a chance to spread - we have to remain flexible for what we need to contain it in future.On @BloombergTV @markets with @adsteel & @GuyJohnsonTV → https://is.gd/DwTCkJ | 15:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: Debunking 7 of the multitude of myths and disinformation about covid vaccines https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/health/story/2021-08-20/vax-facts-7-common-coronavirus-vaccine-myths-debunked by @JonathanWosen @sdut → https://is.gd/wldhLJ | 15:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Pharma: Pharmalittle: New wave of employer Covid-vaccine mandates expected; drug makers and FDA agree on new programs for rare-disease drugs → https://is.gd/kTyoQA | 16:05 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Serbia: +2216 cases (now 746366), +8 deaths (now 7226), +15656 tests (now 4.9 million) since a day ago | 16:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: Just published @ScienceTM https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/early/2021/08/23/scitranslmed.abh2624.full284 patients w/ Covid: type I IFN-specific autoantibodies in 25% with critical or severe disease, none with moderate disease; single cell RNA-seq of >600,000 cells -> role of ISG-1 gene and deficient response → https://is.gd/KPPnh4 | 16:16 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Bangladesh: +5249 cases (now 1.5 million), +114 deaths (now 25513) since a day ago — Qatar: +217 cases (now 231343), +5755 tests (now 2.5 million) since 19 hours ago — Canada: +4179 cases (now 1.5 million) since 16 hours ago | 16:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: R to @EricTopol: The UK suppressed hospitalizations by 75%The US has already reached 75% of its pandemic peak of hospitalizations → https://is.gd/moLksO | 16:49 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Cuba: +9907 cases (now 602526), +92 deaths (now 4710), +45529 tests (now 7.6 million) since 23 hours ago — Myanmar: +2506 cases (now 378377), +123 deaths (now 14622), +21070 tests (now 3.4 million) since 23 hours ago | 16:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Opinion: Florida doctor: This devastating Covid surge didn’t need to happen: An ICU bed cannot save a life. It takes a team of doctors, nurses, respiratory therapists, pharmacists, environmental services workers, and others. And we are now stretched too thin. → https://is.gd/vNuAlJ | 17:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): Tuesday 24 August 2021 Update: submitted by /u/HippolasCage to r/CoronavirusUK → https://is.gd/Q4r3SD | 17:22 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Montenegro: +661 cases (now 111038), +10 deaths (now 1690) since 21 hours ago — Guam: +126 cases (now 9612) since a day ago — Zambia: +326 cases (now 204977), +5 deaths (now 3583), +7598 tests (now 2.2 million) since a day ago | 17:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Evaluation of Clinical and Antibody Response to Covid-19 Vaccination Strategy in TBRI, Egypt → https://is.gd/TvK732 | 17:45 |
| rpifan | so ive either got a cold or covid 2.0 | 17:54 |
| rpifan | i will buy a thermometer but i woke up at 4 pm still so tired | 17:54 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Acceptability/Feasibility of COVID-19 Intervention → https://is.gd/eTBRmd | 17:56 |
| lastshell | rpifan get an oximeter | 18:00 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for United Kingdom: +30619 cases (now 6.6 million), +35 deaths (now 131854), +790292 tests (now 263.9 million) since 15 hours ago — Eritrea: +8 cases (now 6632) since 20 hours ago — Cayman Is.: +5 cases (now 668), +929 tests (now 124962) since 3 days ago — Switzerland: +1 deaths (now 10954) since 3 hours ago | 18:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: With further evolution of Delta, there could be considerably more resistance to vaccines. 3 of 4 mutations (w/ Delta) studied here have already been seen @GISAID https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.22.457114v1 the case for a Delta-specific vaccine → https://is.gd/024mAi | 18:07 |
| LjL | https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/pags4x/would_it_be_fair_to_treat_vaccinated_covid/ha5x0fy/ | 18:11 |
| lastshell | LJL I also saw some news abut Florida healtcare workers refusing to treat not vaccinated | 18:12 |
| Juerd | When did @EricTopol become such a scaremonger | 18:19 |
| LjL | since things became scary? | 18:23 |
| LjL | ...er? | 18:24 |
| imaginary | what's going on in czechia. they seem fairly inmune to delta surges for now. are they not testing that much? | 18:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: She's Now A Millionaire Because She Got Vaccinated: Michigan resident Christine Duval won $2 million as part of a sweepstakes campaign in the state to encourage people to get vaccinated. → https://is.gd/exzI3P | 18:29 |
| LjL | %cases czechia | 18:35 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: Czechia has had 1.7 million confirmed cases (15.7% of all people) and 30385 deaths (1.8% of cases) as of 8 hours ago. 35.3 million tests were done (4.8% positive). 5.9 million were vaccinated (55.0%). +210 cases, +10600 vaccines, +100009 tests since a day ago. See https://onemocneni-aktualne.mzcr.cz/covid-19 | 18:35 |
| imaginary | compared to e.g. austria | 18:36 |
| imaginary | %cases austria | 18:36 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Greece: +5000 cases (now 566812), +32 deaths (now 13417) since a day ago — Morocco: +7184 cases (now 821129), +105 deaths (now 11994), +45615 tests (now 8.7 million) since 21 hours ago — Italy: +6078 cases (now 4.5 million), +60 deaths (now 128855) since 22 hours ago — Jordan: +1016 cases (now 791466), +12 deaths (now 10320), +31063 tests (now 9.1 million) since 21 hours ago | 18:37 |
| Brainstorm | imaginary: Austria has had 678605 confirmed cases (7.6% of all people) and 10768 deaths (1.6% of cases) as of 5 hours ago. 74.4 million tests were done (0.9% positive). 5.4 million were vaccinated (61.1%). +1002 cases, +5 deaths since a day ago. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Austria | 18:37 |
| Brainstorm | imaginary: If you know of an official or otherwise good site for data about Austria, with a reasonably short URL, please %tell LjL about it. | 18:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: 6-month follow up of @BioNTech_Group/@Pfizer vaccination in a Kaiser Permanente cohort of >3.3 million: attrition of effectiveness over time vs infections, for Delta (-> 53% at 4 months), yet high maintained protection vs hospitalizations (93%)https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3909743 → https://is.gd/1IMZ86 | 18:51 |
| LjL | imaginary, most of the sequences sequenced in Czechia *are* Delta, although it doesn't look like many sequences are being sequenced: https://outbreak.info/location-reports?loc=CZE - anyway i've often noticed that eastern europe in general is largely "desynced" with whatever happens in western europe. i don't know why | 18:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from Contagion Live: Football Games with Limited Attendance Not Associated with COVID-19 Spread: Attendance of professional and college football games may resume with COVID-19 mitigation measures, according to a study that found no association between games with limited attendance and COVID-19 cases. → https://is.gd/L3lhdF | 19:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: R to @EricTopol: Contrast w/ @Pfizer trial follow-up, pre-Delta"VE against COVID-19 was 91% (95% CI 89.0-93.2) through up to 6 months of follow-up"https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v1Hard to dissect the time vs Delta or their interaction that accounts for the VE decline, but appears Delta is [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/a3Ml4C | 19:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: CDC study shows unvaccinated people are 29 times more likely to be hospitalized with Covid → https://is.gd/S3f29n | 19:24 |
| LjL | 29 times seems optimistic compared to other studies | 19:30 |
| imaginary | ugh i ahte it when they don't link to the study | 19:30 |
| imaginary | unless i'm missing it | 19:30 |
| LjL | ikr | 19:33 |
| LjL | which is basically always | 19:33 |
| LjL | but at least | 19:33 |
| imaginary | found it https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e5.htm?s_cid=mm7034e5_w | 19:33 |
| LjL | %s CDC’s Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report | 19:33 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, 10250000.0 hits: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/ (Official website) | 19:33 |
| imaginary | yeah i have no idea why thye can't just link it ugh | 19:33 |
| imaginary | numbers are from may to july | 19:34 |
| LjL | i'm starting to think the exact variant that's circulating in the US isn't quite the same as the UK and maybe EU | 19:34 |
| LjL | yeah either that or they just aren't quite looking at deltatimes | 19:34 |
| LjL | which, may-july, in the us... probably aren't | 19:34 |
| imaginary | yeah | 19:34 |
| imaginary | may 1st was definitely a different reality | 19:35 |
| imaginary | july 25th was the most recent date they looked at it seems | 19:35 |
| LjL | hmm | 19:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: R to @EricTopol: 65% Pfizer, 33% Moderna, 2% J&JData not broken down by vaccine75% of Delta infections were symptomatic among vaccinated, 95% among unvaccinated → https://is.gd/ZMkvlJ | 19:35 |
| LjL | https://outbreak.info/location-reports?loc=USA | 19:35 |
| LjL | since the start of July it should mostly be delta | 19:36 |
| LjL | before July, not so much | 19:36 |
| LjL | also what the heck is AY.4 now | 19:36 |
| imaginary | right | 19:36 |
| LjL | we were confused on AY.3 yesterday, now we already have .4? | 19:36 |
| imaginary | i have no idea what's happening hah | 19:37 |
| imaginary | i just wanna cry | 19:37 |
| imaginary | also wait what does topol's tweet mean | 19:38 |
| imaginary | where did he get those numbers | 19:38 |
| LjL | hmm it's a subvariant of B.1.617.2, so of the "main" indian variant | 19:39 |
| LjL | uh | 19:39 |
| LjL | the is.gd link Brainstorm gave doesn't exist, nice | 19:39 |
| pwr22 | LjL: It's just keeping us on our toes | 19:40 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Albania: +800 cases (now 140521), +2 deaths (now 2480), +5018 tests (now 1.0 million) since 22 hours ago — Moldova: +512 cases (now 265258), +5 deaths (now 6374), +6621 tests (now 1.5 million) since a day ago — Jamaica: +752 cases (now 63464), +15 deaths (now 1417), +1751 tests (now 535591) since 22 hours ago [... want %more?] | 19:41 |
| imaginary | LjL: which one | 19:41 |
| imaginary | i don't understand where topol got those 65 33 and 2 numbers | 19:41 |
| LjL | imaginary, the last one that Brainstorm posted, https://is.gd/ZMkvlJ - anyway found it here https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1430218080936886280 (that one is the second in the thread), it's about the CDC study | 19:42 |
| LjL | i'm not sure | 19:42 |
| imaginary | oh that one does work for me which is why i didn't understand | 19:42 |
| LjL | funny, i get " | 19:42 |
| LjL | Sorry, the link you accessed doesn't exist on our service. Please keep in mind that our shortened links are case sensitive and may contain letters and numbers." | 19:42 |
| imaginary | weird | 19:43 |
| imaginary | i works fine on my end | 19:43 |
| imaginary | also holy confidence interval | 19:43 |
| imaginary | (i had missed the first tweet) | 19:43 |
| LjL | works from a Tor browser tab too, but not a private tab | 19:43 |
| LjL | bit of fuckery that | 19:44 |
| imaginary | oh | 19:44 |
| imaginary | >Among 4,217 participants, 3,483 (83%) were vaccinated; 2,278 (65%) received Pfizer-BioNTech, 1,138 (33%) Moderna, and 67 (2%) Janssen (Johnson & Johnson) COVID-19 vaccines | 19:44 |
| imaginary | i wonder why they didn't break it up by vaccine, feels very relevant | 19:44 |
| LjL | not sure if i should add this report as a paper, since it might be more important than average, or just have the main MMWR site | 19:45 |
| imaginary | hmm | 19:46 |
| LjL | imaginary, yeah so presumably the section of study after Delta predominance is pretty small and the CI is lolk | 19:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: New US studies point to waning immunity from vaccines: The publication of the studies comes a week after the CDC agency released its first three reports on vaccine efficacy. → https://is.gd/Cij2RC | 19:46 |
| LjL | but | 19:46 |
| LjL | they have enough vaccinated participants, they just don't have enough unvaccinated ones | 19:47 |
| LjL | among the vaccinated ones, there are many more infections (2.4x) than before Delta | 19:47 |
| LjL | but then the whole wave is going up so that might not be significant | 19:47 |
| LjL | i dunno | 19:47 |
| LjL | to me, these data aren't firm enough to say "29x more protected" at all | 19:48 |
| imaginary | wait | 19:58 |
| imaginary | there are two studies | 19:58 |
| imaginary | the 29x is another one, done in LA only | 19:59 |
| imaginary | the delta vs vaccines one is another one done on frontline workers | 19:59 |
| imaginary | or were you just talking about the former? | 19:59 |
| imaginary | i got confused cause i focused on the latter hah | 19:59 |
| imaginary | (because of topol's tweet) | 20:00 |
| imaginary | ya, timeframe is all f'd up :( | 20:02 |
| LjL | oh | 20:04 |
| LjL | i'm just confused | 20:04 |
| LjL | when i saw topol's tweet it seemed like it was the same study for... some reason | 20:04 |
| LjL | hm because both are from the CDC MMWR | 20:05 |
| LjL | ? | 20:05 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Kenya: +1166 cases (now 230794), +36 deaths (now 4564), +9924 tests (now 2.3 million) since 22 hours ago — Mozambique: +528 cases (now 143655), +5 deaths (now 1813), +2886 tests (now 832353) since 18 hours ago | 20:05 |
| LjL | yeah | 20:06 |
| imaginary | one report is this Effectiveness of COVID-19 Vaccines in Preventing SARS-CoV-2 Infection Among Frontline Workers Before and During B.1.617.2 (Delta) Variant Predominance — Eight U.S. Locations, December 2020–August 2021 | 20:06 |
| imaginary | the 29x one is this one SARS-CoV-2 Infections and Hospitalizations Among Persons Aged ≥16 Years, by Vaccination Status — Los Angeles County, California, May 1–July 25, 2021 | 20:06 |
| LjL | right | 20:06 |
| LjL | "In July, when the Delta variant was predominant, cycle threshold values were similar for unvaccinated, partially vaccinated, and vaccinated persons." ← other studies have shown something else about that, higher with Delta | 20:07 |
| imaginary | https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/figures/mm7034e5-F1-medium.gif | 20:07 |
| imaginary | this is probably where the 29x comes from | 20:08 |
| imaginary | cycle threshold? | 20:08 |
| LjL | yes | 20:08 |
| LjL | it's usually taken to be indicative of the viral load | 20:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Atlantic: Vaccines Are Changing How the Coronavirus Evolves: If evolution is a numbers game, the coronavirus is especially good at playing it. Over the past year and a half, it’s copied itself quickly and sloppily in hundreds of millions of hosts, and hit upon a glut of genetic jackpots that further facilitate its spread. Delta, the [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/1GOTBz | 20:09 |
| LjL | imaginary, i'm not quite sure what this study means by "on July 25" which is repeated a few times... are they taking a point measure from that day? or do they just mean by that time, starting in may? | 20:10 |
| imaginary | LjL: i think july 25th was the last data point | 20:11 |
| imaginary | the plots make it kinda clear | 20:11 |
| LjL | i cannot do integrals by eye :P | 20:12 |
| imaginary | loll | 20:12 |
| LjL | anyway my brain is turned off | 20:12 |
| LjL | i've got a confusion of numbers and seemingly conflicting studies in my head and i just feel like this is a whole mess that i can't make any sense of | 20:13 |
| imaginary | yeah, them being two separate studies i think messed with your head | 20:14 |
| LjL | used to feel different, it would be great if by looking at more and more studies i became more used to understanding them, instead i become worse | 20:14 |
| imaginary | maybe your threshold for "understanding" is higher the more you read them | 20:16 |
| LjL | dunno | 20:16 |
| imaginary | mine is def low af cause i'm dum | 20:16 |
| LjL | i've endummened | 20:16 |
| pwr22 | My homebrew beer is ready to tap tomorrow | 20:20 |
| pwr22 | I don't want to oversell it but.... I am pretty sure it will cure covid 🎉 | 20:20 |
| LjL | :P | 20:21 |
| LjL | imaginary, anyway with my limited brain bandwidth i think for now i'll keep paying more attention to data from Israel and the UK (although they don't match each other, either, so...) than from the US simply because the former countries at least have had COVID for longer and have more consistently deployed vaccinations | 20:25 |
| imaginary | LjL: probably wiser | 20:26 |
| imaginary | i still don't know what to make of czechia | 20:27 |
| LjL | imaginary, i don't know what to make of "waves" in general | 20:27 |
| LjL | people have all sorts of dogmas about it, like, they go down when and because restrictions are imposed | 20:27 |
| LjL | i am utterly unconvinced of that | 20:27 |
| LjL | or, they go down when they've run out of susceptible people | 20:27 |
| imaginary | yeah i don't think that's it | 20:27 |
| imaginary | that i'm more inclined to believ | 20:28 |
| LjL | i'm also unconvinced of that, since we don't all have immunity, and the idea that it only makes a wave through one specific cohort of people seems untenable to me | 20:28 |
| LjL | the thing that convinces me the most, but still really doesn't, is that regardless of whether there are explicit restrictions, as a wave gets bigger, people get more careful, and basically react to the virus like a thermostat | 20:29 |
| dTal | Lockdown measures arrest growth more gradually. Waves "break" in a very sudden way | 20:29 |
| dTal | LjL, I don't buy *that* because people don't pay the blindest bit of attention to the covid incidence | 20:30 |
| LjL | imaginary, it is believable on its face and i *assumed* that to be the case initially when we were panicking and locking down the first time, but then i've kept seeing countries have waves that mostly went down at the same speed at which they had gone up, rinse and repeat. and that's strange. oh, the other thing, seasonality... nah, it's not that either, the US now is bad, and *worse* in the sunnier states. | 20:30 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Spain: +10072 cases (now 4.8 million), +190 deaths (now 83527) since 21 hours ago — Singapore: +116 cases (now 66692) since 23 hours ago — Malawi: +163 cases (now 59787), +16 deaths (now 2098), +987 tests (now 379178) since 21 hours ago — Djibouti: +3 cases (now 11701), +420 tests (now 203719) since 19 hours ago | 20:30 |
| dTal | https://imgur.com/a/026CGjK | 20:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: United States Delivers 52,650 Pfizer Vaccines to Saint Lucia → https://is.gd/lx07VB | 20:31 |
| LjL | imaginary, maybe in your country you're more inclined to believe that because unlike here, there doesn't really look to be very meaningful "waves". cases have mostly just gone up, slower at first, faster now | 20:31 |
| dTal | I made this chart correlating UK incidence with lockdown measures | 20:31 |
| dTal | you can see that lockdowns kind of blunt the growth, whereas unchecked growth seems to "bump" | 20:31 |
| LjL | against what, though | 20:32 |
| LjL | that is what i don't understand | 20:32 |
| dTal | (the alpha variant lockdown didn't do shit, it was Christmas) | 20:32 |
| dTal | it's some kind of R-equilibrium | 20:32 |
| dTal | we hit a "bump" right around "Freedom day" | 20:33 |
| LjL | oh right, then variants. whatever causes a wave to go down can presumably be thwarted by a new variant which then causes a new wave. but i'm unconvinced of *that* as well because there have been cases of new waves despite no new variant | 20:33 |
| dTal | you can see it was on its merry way down before the mayhem from "freedom day" arrested it a couple weeks later | 20:33 |
| imaginary | LjL: yeah here we're just waiting for the tsunami to get big enough and hit us with just 1 wave that kills us all | 20:34 |
| imaginary | no rollercoaster :x | 20:34 |
| dTal | I think it's to do with waning herd immunity | 20:34 |
| LjL | dTal, but then the herd immunity level would have to be much lower than we assume, or the amount of infected/immune people much much higher | 20:35 |
| dTal | right, and that's where the cohort thing comes in | 20:35 |
| LjL | it could be a fair bit higher, for sure, but does it really look like waves end when 90% or so of the population has antibodies? | 20:35 |
| dTal | if you have a friend group who goes to a party and they all catch covid, that friend group now has herd immunity as a whole | 20:35 |
| dTal | not the whole population, branches of the social graph | 20:36 |
| LjL | the cohort thing... if almost every person younger than 25 or whatever is infected, sure, they probably interact with their peers more than they interact with their grandparents, but they interact with their grandparents *too*, and it shouldn't take very low to sow those seeds | 20:36 |
| dTal | friend groups act like "firebreaks" | 20:36 |
| LjL | dTal, okay in that case because it's a very small cohort and a very sudden outbreak, but those are localized outbreaks that are usually spotted | 20:36 |
| LjL | and not big enough to show up as a wave in themselves | 20:36 |
| dTal | what I am saying is the effective herd immunity threshold is lowered by social isolation | 20:37 |
| dTal | that's the whole point of lockdowns | 20:37 |
| dTal | if everyone stays home perfectly, the herd immunity threshold is 0% | 20:39 |
| dTal | but it's a sliding scale. So if people are only meeting friends, but not going to bars and clubs, that will create a new effective "ceiling" | 20:40 |
| LjL | hm | 20:42 |
| dTal | Imagine it this way. We arrange everyone in a grid. Every person can pass it to any of their 8 neighbors. Herd immunity threshold is something like 90%. | 20:42 |
| LjL | yeah herd immunity is about "are the people who get COVID despite widespread immunity likely to meet other people who lack immunity?" and the more people they are likely to meet in general, the more of those | 20:43 |
| LjL | it makes some sense but i just don't feel convinced that it explains all the rollercoaster | 20:44 |
| dTal | well, throw the variants into the mix | 20:44 |
| dTal | but I'm convinced that we're mostly seeing a natural oscillation | 20:45 |
| dTal | I think lockdown measures help a bit, social caution matters a lot more, but ultimately viral dynamics dictate the shape of the waves | 20:46 |
| LjL | i think so too, but by viral dynamics do you mean this varying herd immunity threshold (which is about lockdowns and social caution, so i would guess... no?) or some other thing about how this virus behaves that we don't quite get? | 20:47 |
| dTal | I mean that herd immunity is something we repeatedly and temporarily achieve, so the latter | 20:47 |
| dTal | social behavior dictates how many people have to get sick for that to happen | 20:48 |
| imaginary | hmm, would a 90% vaccination rate in a different (better) world achieve anything then | 20:49 |
| imaginary | my gut feeling tells me that not even something like 90% would be good enough | 20:50 |
| dTal | depends how "good" the vaccine is | 20:50 |
| LjL | it would achieve something, just not herd immunity with the current vaccines | 20:50 |
| imaginary | right | 20:50 |
| LjL | on the one hand, the less the virus circulates, the less "computing power" it has to mutate in nasty ways | 20:51 |
| imaginary | tru | 20:51 |
| LjL | on the other hand, i'm not really sure about this, but i think if you have a vaccine that doesn't quite stop the virus, you're forcing the virus towards an evolution that evades that vaccine better | 20:51 |
| imaginary | well that's the argument that vet guy antivaxxers love keeps sharing | 20:53 |
| imaginary | he dresses up the language and the theory for the masses tho | 20:53 |
| dTal | it's a bit like saying that there's no point fortifying the east castle wall because it'll just force the attackers to move to the west wall | 20:54 |
| dTal | there's a finite amount of mutation the virus can do | 20:54 |
| dTal | we need to keep vaccinating as many people as possible to box it in | 20:55 |
| dTal | and updating the vaccines | 20:55 |
| dTal | and maybe looking at ways to improve them to slow transmission, like the nasal sprays | 20:55 |
| dTal | and wasn't there some thing about a fluid you could aerosol to neutralize covid? that seems like a big deal | 20:56 |
| dTal | wonder what happened to that | 20:56 |
| dTal | I think it's the same stuff as the antibody nasal spray actually, they just decided it was more efficient that way | 20:58 |
| dTal | "AeroNabs" | 21:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: COVID-19 Scan for Aug 24, 2021: Homebound seniors during pandemic Post-vaccine COVID antibodies in breast milk → https://is.gd/j7oCRM | 21:04 |
| LjL | imaginary, Vanden Something? | 21:04 |
| LjL | dTal, i think there is a sharp difference between a vaccine that really gives sterile immunity (or nearly, i.e. overwhelming probability of virus dying down in a short time), and one that lets the virus feast, just more quietly, for days, while pondering mutations | 21:05 |
| LjL | and despite the refrain "these vaccines were never meant to stop infection", i think there was definitely hope that they would, and also, i think they largely *did* before Delta | 21:06 |
| LjL | we need to go back to that, ideally before we have the next Delta | 21:06 |
| LjL | but almost certainly after | 21:06 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for South Africa: +10346 cases (now 2.7 million), +369 deaths (now 79953), +55678 tests (now 16.1 million) since 23 hours ago — Turkey: +12683 cases (now 6.2 million), +293037 tests (now 74.4 million) since 21 hours ago — France: +317 deaths (now 113739) since 23 hours ago | 21:08 |
| LjL | i have a feeling (more than a feeling, since i wrote the code, and even reread it) that the test numbers are always going to be bolded as long as they are higher than the case numbers, which... i'd assume they'd be | 21:08 |
| LjL | dunno if i feel like changing the code to fix that ;( | 21:09 |
| LjL | it appears i only made it store a delta for cases, and nothing else | 21:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: The same pattern in LA County as seen in other US counties and states (no national data)The Delta wave (and time from vaccination) associated with a rise in breakthroughs yet steady snd strong protection from hospitalizations, age-adjustedhttps://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e5.htm?s_cid=mm7034e5_w @CDCMMWR → https://is.gd/k1l9b6 | 21:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from WebMD: White House to Vaccine Skeptics: ‘The Wait Is Over’: White House officials are urging COVID-19 vaccine skeptics to get immunized now that Pfizer’s two-dose shot has been given full FDA approval. → https://is.gd/Gu4Dc9 | 22:10 |
| rpifan | thats worse | 22:11 |
| rpifan | to me it feels like pfizer has bribed the govt to get it approved | 22:11 |
| rpifan | certainly hasnt been fully approved in the EU | 22:11 |
| dTal | half the EU's had it already | 22:12 |
| dTal | not sure what the practical implications are supposed to be here | 22:12 |
| ublx | coercion, possibly. headlines today about biden urging vaccine mandates, ie having employers etc require vaccination for eligibility to work | 22:17 |
| dTal | rpifan: what do you mean hasn't been fully approved in the EU anyway | 22:26 |
| specing | I think the problem with EU is that once there's a fully approved vaccine, the emergency ceases to exist and thus all other vaccines cannot be used | 22:51 |
| specing | something like that | 22:51 |
| dTal | I still don't know what you're talking about | 22:55 |
| dTal | it's approved | 22:55 |
| dTal | https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/overview/public-health-threats/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/treatments-vaccines/vaccines-covid-19/covid-19-vaccines-authorised#authorised-covid-19-vaccines-section | 22:56 |
| dTal | well, "authorized" | 22:56 |
| dTal | not sure "approval" is a thing given the EU isn't a country | 22:57 |
| dTal | that sounds... inaccurate, specing | 22:58 |
| specing | dTal: EUA /= approved | 22:58 |
| specing | dTal: probably all EU member states recognise EMA's authority, at least mine does | 22:59 |
| dTal | do you have any kind of source for "once there's a fully approved vaccine, the emergency ceases to exist and thus all other vaccines cannot be used" | 23:00 |
| specing | nope, and I don't know where I've got it from | 23:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: CDC: Unvaccinated 5 times more likely to get COVID-19: Stephanie Soucheray | News Reporter | CIDRAP News Aug 24, 2021 And those not vaccinated are 29 times more likely to be hospitalized for COVID. → https://is.gd/RWIP1N | 23:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: A Woman Who Coughed On Store Food, Claiming She Had Coronavirus Gets A Jail Sentence: She gets at least a year in jail for going to a supermarket near Wilkes-Barre, Pa., in March 2020, and purposely coughing on fresh produce while yelling that everyone would get sick. → https://is.gd/D2nEqy | 23:39 |
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