libera/##covid-19/ Monday, 2021-08-30

BrainstormUpdates for Guatemala: +1306 cases (now 465059), +40 deaths (now 11858), +6484 tests (now 2.2 million) since 23 hours ago00:00
jj`.|[ %cases Mexico ]|.00:26
jj`%cases Mexico00:26
Brainstormjj`: Mexico has had 3.3 million confirmed cases (2.6% of all people) and 257906 deaths (7.7% of cases) as of 18 hours ago. 9.7 million tests were done (34.3% positive). 57.3 million were vaccinated (45.3%). +17546 cases, +756 deaths since a day ago. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Mexico00:26
Brainstormjj`: If you know of an official or otherwise good site for data about Mexico, with a reasonably short URL, please %tell LjL about it.00:26
jj`%cases US00:27
Brainstormjj`: United States has had 39.3 million confirmed cases (11.9% of all people) and 646696 deaths (1.6% of cases) as of 26 minutes ago. 578.5 million tests were done (6.8% positive). 204.0 million were vaccinated (61.9%). +40399 cases, +472 deaths since 23 hours ago. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=United%20States00:27
Brainstormjj`: If you know of an official or otherwise good site for data about United States, with a reasonably short URL, please %tell LjL about it.00:27
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: ‘I was thrown in jail and a mental institution, then deported from Singapore… for not wearing a Covid-19 mask’ → https://is.gd/xtn6w700:28
LjLpoor little thing00:28
jj`:o00:28
twomoonlol00:47
LjL<apropos> ● [outbreak] The effectiveness of SARS-CoV-2 vaccination in preventing severe illness and death- real-world data from a cohort of patients hospitalized with COVID-19. → http://medrxiv.org/cgi/content/short/2021.08.26.21262705v1?rss=100:58
LjL(India)00:58
finely[m]<Arsanerit> "I don't have a good answer..." <- Most deleterious vaccine side effects are found soon after we begin to administer them. We know long covid can have terrible effects in kids and its relatively common. I would worry about the known damage of the disease more than any unknown bad effects of the vaccines (if any).00:59
LjLit is natural to fear the unknown more, though01:00
BrainstormUpdates for Syria: +115 cases (now 27654), +5 deaths (now 2003) since a day ago — Bangladesh: +2572 cases (now 1.5 million), +89 deaths (now 26015), +27921 tests (now 8.9 million) since a day ago — Palestine: +1696 cases (now 337405), +3 deaths (now 3672), +9704 tests (now 2.2 million) since a day ago [... want %more?]01:02
LjL%wik FLCCC01:11
BrainstormLjL, specify one of the following: COVID-19 misinformation — Foot Locker Cross Country Championships01:12
LjLuh, sounds err legit... what?01:12
LjL%wik COVID-19 misinformation01:12
BrainstormLjL, from English Wikipedia: The COVID-19 pandemic has resulted in misinformation and conspiracy theories about the scale of the pandemic and the origin, prevention, diagnosis, and treatment of the disease. False information, including intentional disinformation, has been spread through social media, text messaging, and mass [... want %more?] → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_misinformation01:12
LjLa deleted article that now redirects, confusing01:13
LjLso someone was agreeing that the FLCCC as in "Frontline COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance" was legit, earlier? or am i being confused?01:14
BrainstormUpdates for Kenya: +363 cases (now 234952), +16 deaths (now 4710), +4594 tests (now 2.4 million) since a day ago01:39
pwr22<LjL> "so someone was agreeing that the..." <- I dunno, some conspiracy spamming01:56
LjLi feel that our various pundits aren't so sure about ivermectin, and that it *may* have some degree of usefulness, but all these nuts people who conflate it with "these are not vaccines!" (the same spammer said that earlier) and eat horse deworming paste kind of, for a change, force most people to "get into the anti-ivermectin camp" just to not be associated with these loonies02:01
LjLit's a shame that things can't just be looked at scientifically and if studies disagree, just make more until there's reasonable agreement02:01
btLjL: Yeah, the nuts on both sides are really fucking everything up.02:01
btLjL: It's like you have one set of people saying that unvaccinated people shouldn't be able to get into hospitals, and another set that says the vaccine is a bioweapon.02:02
LjLanyway what i referred to, that i had vague memory of but looked at and found again later, was Raf[m] thumbsing-up the message that said this FLCCC thing and something else were legit, which puzzled me02:02
LjL(for the benefit of those reading from IRC: thumbing-up is a thing on Matrix, the bridge doesn't relay it)02:03
pwr22Raf didn't seem to be misbehaving as far as I can see even if I didn't understand that upvote 🙂02:07
pwr22 * Raf didn't seem to be misbehaving as far as I could see even if I didn't understand that upvote 🙂02:07
Raf[m]So I thought FLCCC was legit, I'll be glad to hear otherwise and change my opinion, if I had fallen for some hoax ('ve only looked at it briefly). Last i read up on Ivermectin back in January of this year, it was legitimately being explored as treatment. unfortunately, I do think the people buying it from tractor supply and eating horse paste are giving it a bad name02:07
pwr22<Raf[m]> "Still quotes for me. I'm not sur" <- Only a thing on the IRC side of the bridge. Nothing different on the matrix end02:08
Raf[m]i heard there was a paper retracted on the usefulness of ivermectin, but I'd be glad to hear otherwise. i am not staying on top of all this in real time02:08
Raf[m]gotcha02:08
pwr22I think the important thing is that people get treatment from medical professionals for humans 😛02:09
pwr22I don't believe there's any reason ivermectin won't be used if it is found to work02:09
pwr22But afaik the only drugs that have a significant benefit in severe covid conditions (that are readily available) are steroids02:10
Raf[m]I still it in the east virginia medical school covid protocol: https://www.evms.edu/media/t4_training/EVMS_Critical_Care_COVID-19_Protocol.pdf [warning downloads a pdf]02:10
pwr22But I also may be really out of date on that02:10
Raf[m]is FLCCC a hoax?02:10
* pwr22 wonders if any acronyms more than 3 letters are legit02:11
Raf[m]I think this explains the situation well: https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/frontiers-removes-controversial-ivermectin-paper-pre-publication-68505 the jist of it is that a physician-scientist at EVMS/FLCCC got his paper retracted from Frontiers since the scientific merit was questionable. This sparked a lot of doubt on ivermectin since he was main proponent02:22
LjL-MatrixI don't know Raf , that guy definitely seemed sketchy but I'm not familiar with FLCCC02:24
Raf[m]I would keep an eye on this trial from McMaster university: https://www.togethertrial.com/ the protocol looks really enticing, they are conducting a large clinical trial with repurposed drugs including ivermectin02:25
Raf[m]as well as a few others02:25
Raf[m]fair enough LjL, i agree 100% with what you said about the polarizing attitude about ivermectin though, you seem to have the anti-ivermectin, pro-vaccine camp vs. the opposite with no in between02:27
LjL-MatrixThere was a thread on Twitter one of the past few days I think that looked at a "positive" meta-review about ivermectin and found that it was only positive when including one/two studies that they had rated as "low" risk of bias while other reviews them had rated them "high"02:29
pwr22Something about that page just feels sketch to me02:29
LjL-MatrixSo there certainly seems to be nitpicking over the validity of various studies. I guess at best the benefit is small, or it'd be more obvious?02:29
BrainstormUpdates for France: +21049 cases (now 6.8 million), +87 deaths (now 114318) since 23 hours ago — Netherlands: +2452 cases (now 2.0 million), +9 deaths (now 18168) since 23 hours ago — Canada: +1596 cases (now 1.5 million), +5 deaths (now 26926) since 23 hours ago — Guyana: +84 cases (now 25051), +3176 tests (now 265263) since a day ago02:29
Raf[m]yeah i agree02:31
Raf[m]pwr22: it's ok to be skeptical. which page? the together trial?02:32
pwr22It seems legit though, just a terrible site02:32
Raf[m]i think it's testament to the fact that academics can't make websites lol02:33
pwr22So their findings on there is that an antidepressant was better than placebo but no others02:33
pwr22😀02:33
LjLbt, to the FLCCC page, i can say that, okay, it may be a knee-jerk reaction to their paper being removed, but the most prominent thing on their site is "AVOID CENSORSHIP - CONNECT TO THE FLCCC ALLIANCE HERE"02:33
LjLerr that was meant to be "but", not "bt"02:34
LjLwhich would be irrelevant except for the presence of the latter :D02:34
btLjL: I forgive you02:34
LjLthank you02:34
Raf[m]i saw the press release about the anti-depressant. if they have negative results for ivermectin i wish they posted that too. i guess we'll have to wait for the peer-reviewed article to come out02:35
Raf[m]LjL: that's a recent thing. but I agree FLCCC is starting to lose credibility. it used to be a legit organization, but now they are starting to claim that they're being shut down by FDA, WHO, etc for not listening to them for pro-ivermectin results (which as you've pointed out, are likely cherry picked and/or biased now)02:38
Raf[m]and I have literally just been reading up on it now since we've been discussing it. I've been out of the loop02:39
LjL-MatrixThis is the Twitter thread and related metareview I was thinking about btw https://twitter.com/GidMK/status/1412635807702142982 (yes, took me a while, but I'm multitasking while my computer isn't :P)02:41
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: New Zealand COVID-19 conspiracy group in disarray after almost nobody turns up to anti-lockdown protest. → https://is.gd/hFmkUM02:56
Cashlingreat headline02:58
specingHmm, I wonder03:08
specingIs there something one can do after taking viral vector vaccine to prevent/reduce the chance of getting clots/GBS?03:09
btspecing: I'm also interested in hearing responses to this03:09
BrainstormUpdates for Egypt: +255 cases (now 287899), +7 deaths (now 16721) since a day ago03:31
BrainstormUpdates for United Kingdom: +24720 cases (now 6.7 million), +45 deaths (now 132583) since 20 hours ago — France: +11212 cases (now 6.8 million), +45 deaths (now 114332) since 20 hours ago — Netherlands: +1766 cases (now 2.0 million) since 20 hours ago — Canada: +1175 cases (now 1.5 million), +2 deaths (now 26927) since 20 hours ago04:33
BrainstormUpdates for Grenada: +34 cases (now 357) since 4 hours ago06:00
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: New Zealand reports first death linked to Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine → https://is.gd/vYY50906:18
LjLmyocarditis06:19
LjLsomeone said the other day that no deaths from myocarditis had been recorded, or they didn't know of any06:19
LjLi guess now there's at least one, i don't remember who said that though06:19
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV: The Delta variant carries a higher risk of hospitalization, a study finds. → https://is.gd/Y51Rdm06:39
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Secret army of 200 weapons-obsessed anti-vaxx ex-soldiers called 'Veterans 4 Freedom' plotting attacks on vaccine centres and chaos on Britain's streets → https://is.gd/BGfq2w06:50
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid: Australia records 1,000th death from the pandemic → https://is.gd/7Qj5BQ07:00
BrainstormUpdates for Scotland, United Kingdom: +7104 cases (now 420622) since a day ago — Hawaii, United States: +1678 cases (now 62229), +2 deaths (now 589) since a day ago — New South Wales, Australia: +1272 cases (now 25857), +4 deaths (now 147) since a day ago — United Kingdom: +15741 cases (now 6.7 million), +61 deaths (now 132599) since 13 hours ago07:40
BrainstormUpdates for India: +42909 cases (now 32.7 million), +302 deaths (now 437989) since 23 hours ago08:30
BrainstormNew from WHO Euro: All schools in Europe and Central Asia should remain open and be made safer from COVID-19, say WHO and UNICEF: As millions of children return to school across the European region, where the highly transmissible COVID-19 Delta variant is dominant, the WHO Regional Office for Europe and the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/o5pOPp08:36
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express (Health): Art and Culture: Budapest mural pays tribute to Katalin Kariko, Hungarian-born pioneer behind Covid-19 vaccine → https://is.gd/mlCRbl08:57
BrainstormNew from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | August 30, 2021: Please refer to our Wiki for more information on COVID-19 and our sub. You can find answers to frequently asked questions in our FAQ , where there is valuable information such as our: → https://is.gd/pGsKz509:08
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): China_Flu: New COVID variant detected in South Africa, most mutated variant so far → https://is.gd/5flATW09:19
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express (Health): Food & Wine: Covid care: Ayurvedic practitioner shares recipes to build strength, immunity → https://is.gd/CGYYNh10:01
archpcUpdate: spO2 is 87, still feel like shit10:01
BrainstormUpdates for Montserrat: +3 cases (now 29) since 4 days ago — Brunei: +103 cases (now 2565), +1 deaths (now 8), +3169 tests (now 227030) since 23 hours ago10:09
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Palestinians finally have vaccines. But will people take them? → https://is.gd/XoigCw10:22
BrainstormUpdates for Hungary: +521 cases (now 812227) since 2 days ago — Jammu and Kashmir, India: +169 cases (now 325148), +1 deaths (now 4407) since a day ago — Andaman and Nicobar Islands, India: +4 cases (now 7564) since 4 days ago — Taiwan: +8 cases (now 15991), +100169 tests (now 5.0 million) since a day ago10:34
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Inside Pfizer’s labs, ‘variant hunters’ race to stay ahead of the pandemic’s next twist: At the Pearl River, N.Y., research center where the Pfizer vaccine was created, a team of “variant hunters” race to track changes in the fast-mutating SARS-CoV-2. → https://is.gd/srTsaN10:44
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Alberta feed stores inundated with calls for ivermectin over false claims livestock dewormer treats COVID → https://is.gd/oHi9KB10:54
BrainstormUpdates for Turkey: +23649 cases (now 6.3 million), +255 deaths (now 56213) since 14 hours ago — Japan: +19994 cases (now 1.5 million), +50 deaths (now 15946), +68976 tests (now 21.6 million) since 23 hours ago11:11
BrainstormUpdates for Slovakia: +13 cases (now 394755), +1485 tests (now 3.3 million) since 23 hours ago — Switzerland: +2 deaths (now 10967) since 2 days ago12:01
finely[m]<specing> "Is there something one can do..." <- The recommendations for AZ in particular is to monitor for symptoms, immediately get a blood test if you see any, then get treated in hospital.12:07
finely[m]Many people that die put off seeking treatment. You have to get help as soon as you see a symptom. This side effect is serious but often treatable if caught early enough.12:07
finely[m]https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/thrombosis-with-thrombocytopenia-syndrome-tts#risk12:10
BrainstormUpdates for Germany: +4612 cases (now 3.9 million) since 21 hours ago — Poland: +154 cases (now 2.9 million), +22077 tests (now 19.7 million) since a day ago12:38
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express (Health): Destination of the week: Croatia thrilled at summer season success despite Covid-19 → https://is.gd/x4EFXI12:40
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Coronavirus booster shots ‘not a luxury’, WHO Europe head says → https://is.gd/GIFLAV12:52
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Japan’s Moderna vaccine contamination woes widen as 1 million more shots suspended → https://is.gd/wNjkfc13:02
BrainstormUpdates for Croatia: +139 cases (now 373330), +6 deaths (now 8331), +3784 tests (now 2.5 million) since a day ago13:03
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: New COVID variant detected in South Africa, most mutated variant so far → https://is.gd/l7Jo1B13:34
BrainstormUpdates for UAE: +993 cases (now 717374), +1 deaths (now 2039), +321470 tests (now 74.4 million) since a day ago — Romania: +699 cases (now 1.1 million), +11 deaths (now 34539), +16083 tests (now 11.4 million) since a day ago — Laos: +175 cases (now 14816), +2 deaths (now 14), +2212 tests (now 377345) since a day ago [... want %more?]13:40
BrainstormUpdates for Nepal: +1902 cases (now 761124), +16 deaths (now 10730), +11892 tests (now 3.9 million) since 22 hours ago — Gibraltar: +4 cases (now 5342), +328 tests (now 335900) since 21 hours ago14:05
BrainstormNew from WHO Euro: WHO/Europe: stagnating COVID-19 vaccination uptake requires urgent action: We now have 64 million confirmed cases and 1.3 million deaths. Thirty-three Member States report a greater than 10% increase in 14-day case incidence. This high transmission is deeply worrying – particularly in the light of low vaccination uptake in [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/K8xkWc14:06
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Flames consume high-rise in Milan; residents evacuated → https://is.gd/RgisJm14:17
BrainstormUpdates for Switzerland: +2064 cases (now 772826) since 2 hours ago14:30
BrainstormUpdates for Vietnam: +14224 cases (now 449489), +315 deaths (now 11064) since 21 hours ago — Bangladesh: +2557 cases (now 1.5 million), +30855 tests (now 8.9 million) since 14 hours ago — Denmark: +747 cases (now 344786), +252206 tests (now 80.9 million) since 23 hours ago15:07
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Pharma: STAT+: Pharmalittle: Contaminants found in Moderna Covid-19 vaccine in Japan; demand rises for ivermectin to treat the coronavirus → https://is.gd/4ntVSm15:22
BrainstormUpdates for Iceland: +47 cases (now 10705), +3226 tests (now 971372) since a day ago15:32
BrainstormNew from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: What a fully vaccinated 80% of total population can achieve in the Delta waveCongratulations 🇸🇬 → https://is.gd/uSdPr815:33
BrainstormUpdates for Iraq: +6778 cases (now 1.9 million), +65 deaths (now 20764), +39114 tests (now 14.3 million) since 23 hours ago — Serbia: +2335 cases (now 759952), +12 deaths (now 7278), +12740 tests (now 5.0 million) since 23 hours ago16:03
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Covid-19: WHO fears 236,000 Covid deaths in Europe by Dec; Australian state warns ICU cases to peak in October → https://is.gd/vGlAL716:05
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: A judge asked a mother if she got the coronavirus vaccine. She said no, and he revoked custody of her son. → https://is.gd/IJi6NI16:15
BrainstormUpdates for Palestine: +2411 cases (now 339816), +3 deaths (now 3675) since 15 hours ago — Bosnia and Herz.: +1073 cases (now 213379), +7 deaths (now 9792) since 2 days ago — Azerbaijan: +3107 cases (now 421103), +39 deaths (now 5592), +11191 tests (now 4.4 million) since a day ago — San Marino: +60 cases (now 5321) since 7 days ago16:41
BrainstormNew from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: .@RandPaul strikes again.After the @US_FDA  had their best public communication of the pandemic, Paul finds a new excuse for why there are no data to support the use of Ivermectin. → https://is.gd/6xhHN916:58
BrainstormNew from Derek Lowe: @Dereklowe: That's it. We're on a planet full of mutating Covid-19 viruses, and the sooner we can turn that down, the better off we're all going to be. It would be nice if there were no combination worse than Delta for the virus to stumble across. But hope is not a strategy, as they say. → https://is.gd/GdsowN17:08
BrainstormNew from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: Another example of hybrid immunity—prior Covid plus vaccine—benefit with respect to durability of antibody levels to 10 months, in health care workers @JAMANetworkOpen https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2783618Confirmed prior covid needs to be recognized by @CDCgov as = one dose of vaccine → https://is.gd/me54H417:19
specing> This is fantastic. A recent study out of the University of Maryland presents the first evidence that full vaccination against COVID-19 actually SUPPRESSES emergent mutations of SARS-CoV-2 Delta variants therefore successfully debunking the myth that vaccines promote mutations.17:36
specinghttps://twitter.com/pucciami/status/142628587073956659817:36
BrainstormNew from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: R to @EricTopol: And @SciReports today on Prior Covid + vaccination and variants of concern (concordant with a recent @ScienceTM report that 2 doses may be needed vs variants with immune escape)https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-96879-3https://is.gd/iO9pRx17:40
lastshellBrainstorm I feel Mexico have way more cases than what they report17:46
LjLalso true for: <long list of countries goes here>17:46
lastshellyeah17:47
LjLspecing, https://twitter.com/SignorPallina/status/1426621250412048385  i agree with the perplexity about that last sentence (haven't read the study). so far, problematic mutations haven't arisen in the presence of high vaccination rates: India had very low rates, and the UK also had low rates when Alpha arose. but wherever they arise, they *become dominant* in... well, mostly anywhere, but particularly where people are vaccinated, if they evade the vaccine better17:51
LjLthan autoctonous variants17:51
LjLso why does it say that the virus becomes more contagious *as* it goes through the vaccinated population? so far, the virus has become more contagious *independently* (i.e. elsewhere), and then spread17:52
LjLthere may well be a lower chance of developing mutations in highly-vaccinated places, but *if and when* a vaccine-evading variant develops (there, or anywhere else), eventually it'll spread comparatively better in vaccinated places. where people are not vaccinated it may not supplant the existing variants, but where they are, it would17:53
BrainstormNew from Ars Technica: Policy: Illinois judge bars mother from seeing son until she’s vaccinated against COVID → https://is.gd/lf5lPK18:02
BrainstormNew from The Atlantic: The Wrong Way to Test Yourself for the Coronavirus: In mid-June, Joanna Dreifus hit a pandemic milestone. The final member of her household—her teenage son—reached the point of full vaccination. “We had about two weeks where I thought, Phew, we’re okay ,” Dreifus, a special-needs-education consultant in New York City, [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/h9ctr518:24
BrainstormUpdates for Myanmar: +3583 cases (now 395883), +167 deaths (now 15350) since a day ago — United Kingdom: +26227 cases (now 6.8 million) since 16 hours ago — Cuba: +6075 cases (now 646513), +75 deaths (now 5219), +46364 tests (now 7.9 million) since a day ago — Greece: +2343 cases (now 583658), +19 deaths (now 13600), +49602 tests (now 15.4 million) since a day ago18:33
fooHowdy ya'll. What tool do you suggest to check covid risk levels in an area? Covidactnow is what I had, that's probably fine.18:40
fooTrying to assess weather or not to meet some friends and eat outdoors (2 friends who work from home, low risk)18:40
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Philippines: Nurses threaten mass resignation amid Covid surge → https://is.gd/YNrdi418:45
dTalfoo: I've used this in the past: https://www.microcovid.org/18:46
dTalit's an all-in-one risk calculator18:46
foodTal: thanks, I'm not going to go after all. House sitting for some friends and can't risk anything.19:03
BrainstormNew from Contagion Live: us: One Woman’s Death Possibly from Myocarditis Linked to Pfizer-BioNTech Vaccine → https://is.gd/Duwl6n19:07
p0indexterinteresting up to now i was only aware of myocaeditis associated w moderna.19:14
fooWhat's the ivaqdrum - I'm not spelling this properly, can someone correct my spelling?19:15
p0indexteraltho the data my have been available19:15
p0indextermy/may19:17
fooAn alternative to the vaccine... I know I'm buchering the spelling, haha.19:18
rpifani susepect over time we will find the vaccines are less safe then expect buttt19:21
foorpifan: what makes you say that?19:21
rpifannot in most cases the ywill probably be safer then getting covid itself19:21
rpifandata just tends to drag and they big studies take time19:21
foorpifan: thanks. I'm not vaccinated yet but was going to revisit that decision this week.19:23
fooHad a good call with my doctor about this last week, I've just been hesitant19:23
rpifanim also hesistant im not all into novavax19:24
rpifanbut i ended up getting covid anyway19:24
fooSurprisingly, my father got covid. Then got an antibody test at CVS... and he apparently had none.19:25
rpifanhow long after covid19:25
rpifandid he get the test19:25
fooWithin 7 days19:26
fooWell, he tested positive, then got tested within 14 days of a positive test19:26
rpifaninteresting19:26
fooPossibly closer to 20 days19:26
fooYeah, how is that even possible?19:26
rpifanwell frmo what ive read after 10 days its hard to get a positive result19:26
rpifanbut i read that covid lives in your intestines for months19:26
fooReally? I've seen several doctors say they get covid-19, test their antibodies monthly, and they have antibodies for many months.19:27
rpifaninteresting well there are ppl in here who know a lot more then me19:27
rpifanso maybe they can reply19:27
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Texas anti-mask movement leader dies of COVID-19 → https://is.gd/Wc0Xmb19:28
BrainstormUpdates for Singapore: +288 cases (now 67459) since a day ago — Luxembourg: +155 cases (now 75672), +1102 vaccines (now 406102) since 3 days ago — Ireland: +1292 cases (now 351065), +9083 vaccines (now 3.7 million) since a day ago — Jamaica: +739 cases (now 67402), +6 deaths (now 1510), +1508 tests (now 546596) since 23 hours ago19:35
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Florida radio host who called himself ‘Mr Anti-Vax’ dies of Covid-19 → https://is.gd/cYvnsj19:49
specingMr. Anti-Vax haha19:56
BrainstormUpdates for Maldives: +169 cases (now 80960) since 20 hours ago — Mali: +16 cases (now 14873), +2432 tests (now 381596) since 20 hours ago20:00
ricksonix.title https://twitter.com/chrischirp/status/143154641206875341320:00
Brainstormricksonix: From twitter.com: Prof. Christina Pagel (@chrischirp): "Regardless of the quality of this paper - even if it were 100% right, the logic remains that everyone's best option is to get vaccinated ASAP. Quick thread on [...]20:00
whyteklastshell, Why the mention on Mexico? just curious.20:06
whytek*of20:06
lastshellI saw in the logs of the channel some mentioned about Mexico data20:06
lastshellI have family there20:07
lastshelland I know cases are worst than they report20:07
lastshellwhytek20:08
whytekYes, Brainstorm's updates. OK. Yes, I think it's probably correct to say that there are more cases than are reported.20:08
whytekJust recently, a whole bunch of people close to me got PCR postive tests.20:08
whytekand some in the same circles got negative tests.20:09
whytekSome felt sick, others didn't.20:09
whytekI guess the PCR postive people got counted as "cases", assuming the local lab here reports.20:09
whytekBut generally, Mexico is a pretty big place and I think the situation varies wildly from one region to another.20:09
whytekAll in all, the situation in Oaxaca right now seems pretty relax. I'm not hearing of many sick people.20:10
ricksonixlooking at mexico's pcr positive share from owid, over 40% positive. but they test very little, and probably depends on region20:11
whytekTests are beyond most poeple's economic means.20:11
lastshellyeah same here in USA is region based20:11
whytekA PCR here costs MXN$100020:12
lastshellhow much is now a cheap meal over there in mexico less than 100 ?20:13
whyteklastshell, hehe... was just talking about that the other day - how things have got so much more expensive.. gone are the days of a cheap meal for 15 or 20 pesos.20:14
whytekbut yes, you can eat for less than $10020:14
ricksonixvaccination coverage lowish, but should cover old and hcw. wide mix of different manufacturers (mexico)20:14
lastshellwhen I lived over there 2 hotdogs and 1 soda was only 15 pesos, was a nice deal20:15
whytekricksonix, couple of weeks ago they started the campaign for 30-40 yrs olds20:15
whytekso it's been available.20:15
lastshellbut I'm taking about like 15 / 20 years ago20:15
ricksonixwell, their food is great20:16
whytekyeah, 15 to 20 years ago, I had many a comida corrida for $1520:16
whytekYeah the food is great if you like chile.20:17
whytekWhat I realyl miss here is good quality raw grains and rice.20:17
whyteksometimes I feel like what's available in terms of loose grains is like animal feed quality.20:18
whytekof course, the maiz is good, if you can get locally.20:18
ricksonixhard to find good bread with whole grain flowers used in most countries in europe (for my taste anyway). or pasta20:20
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: 'This virus is not a joke for young people': Schoolgirl, 17, urges other teenagers to get vaccinated after Covid put her in hospital just THREE DAYS after she had her first jab → https://is.gd/ihT65m20:21
ricksonixfor bread, i avoid <6% fiber. good rye bread has around 12% here20:21
whyteklastshell, BTW, the local official data from the National science and technology Council, broken down my region is at https://datos.covid-19.conacyt.mx/20:23
whytek*by20:23
ricksonixbtw that twitter link above shows some biases in that israelian study on natural infection vs vaccination. worth checking out20:24
whytekricksonix, chrischirp?20:25
whytekor which twitter link above?20:26
ricksonixyeah20:26
whytekthere's several thousand... :)20:26
whytekok20:26
ricksonixi think i pasted the wrong link though, lemme see...20:27
ricksonixyeah, it was this one i meant to paste (biases in natural vs vaccine induced immunity):20:28
ricksonix.title https://twitter.com/DGBassani/status/143139018892476826920:28
Brainstormricksonix: From twitter.com: Diego Bassani, PhD 🏠😷💉 (@DGBassani): "Although some are trying to find biological plausibility in the findings from the pre-print below, I think some thought should be given to the many biases that [...]20:28
lastshellricksonix, they are now boosting like crazy the 3rd shot in Israel20:28
ricksonixyep. some dont agree its shown to wane for younger, yet20:29
ricksonixand now when they are boosting them anyway, we might never know from israelian data, if it does or not20:30
ricksonixmaybe they have enough antibody data. but thats not all for protection20:30
ricksonixshould it be israelian or israeli in this context?20:31
LjLevening20:33
ricksonixhello sir20:33
BrainstormUpdates for Italy: +4253 cases (now 4.5 million), +53 deaths (now 129146) since a day ago — France: +76 deaths (now 114367) since 23 hours ago20:37
ricksonixi supposed mostly unvaccinated middle-aged and older, those deaths20:39
lastshellthe news they announce some breaktrough cases, do we have a place with data like age and when was the last 2nd shot ?20:41
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1432361333954023428  - graph seems to be just abs vs spike (without vaccinations), showing only slow waning20:42
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "Another example of hybrid immunity—prior Covid plus vaccine—benefit with respect to durability of antibody levels to 10 months, in health care workers @JAMANetworkOpen [...]20:42
BrainstormNew from Science Daily: Granulocytes may weaken immune response in connection with COVID-19: Information on granulocytes sheds light on the mechanisms associated with COVID-19 and other infectious diseases. → https://is.gd/RhJFEP20:42
nixonixand not neutralizing abs, but any binding, saying "Recent literature supports that the levels of spike antibodies induced by natural infection correlate with neutralization and protect against subsequent infection"20:44
nixonixbtw those surrogate neut tests usually and perhaps always test only neutralizing vs ace2. not sure if its correlative enough, since neutralizing vs tmprss2 is left out20:47
BrainstormNew from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: Antibodies to #SARSCoV2 receptor binding domain in saliva induced from prior covid, mRNA vaccine and J&J vaccine. High levels of IgG in mRNA vaccinated. Salivary IgA also measured in this study.https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.22.21262168v1https://is.gd/iQ591b20:53
nixonixso lymphopenia in covid could be induced by that type of neutrophils (LDG) which proliferate for some, which is part of innate immune response. maybe a flawed response, against this virus20:58
BrainstormUpdates for Turkey: +30158 cases (now 6.4 million), +283250 tests (now 76.1 million) since 23 hours ago20:59
LjLnixonix, this might interest you, don't think you were here when posted <specing> https://twitter.com/pucciami/status/142628587073956659821:14
BrainstormNew from WebMD: Liberty University Orders Campus-Wide Quarantine for COVID-19: Liberty University in Virginia announced a temporary campus-wide quarantine due to a spike in COVID-19 cases among students and staff. → https://is.gd/wte4oC21:14
LjLi made some comments on it but without reading even the abstract so maybe i'll not repeat them :P21:14
specingpucciami is an infectologist working at my national public health institute21:16
specing /epidemiologist, idk what exactly21:17
nixonixok. so im reading 3 studies, maybe alternating and commenting in between. that saliva study is super interesting. it seems theres plenty of IgG in saliva from mrna, so mucosal protection should be there just from IgG21:17
nixonixmostly from migrating plasma cells. why isnt it enough to stop the infection in upper respiratory, after waning 4+ months? just because of deltas high cell infectivity?21:19
nixonixmaybe they dont migrate in all the places where they would be needed21:20
de-facto.title https://science.sciencemag.org/content/373/6553/39721:23
Brainstormde-facto: From science.sciencemag.org: Scent of a vaccine | Science21:23
nixonixmaybe thats the purpose of sneezing, so that plasma cells and antibodies would be carried everywhere, like in nasal cavity21:23
nixonixso after being exposed, snort some pepper or something...21:24
de-factoi think the purpose of sneezing is mechanically removing all those antigens that lead to the mucus reaction, e.g. also allergy etc21:25
nixonixsure, like dust. but idk if that help much for virions that you have breathed and are in mucus21:26
nixonixmaybe if they are mostly in hairs of nose or something, it reduces the amount a bit perhaps21:26
de-factoall the stuff that builds up that gigantic blow of aerosol is not in the nose anymore21:26
de-factoits disgusting for everyone but the one that sneezes21:27
LjLi think it's mainly because of delta21:27
de-factoim Germany we say to someone sneezing "Gesundheit" wishing that person good health21:29
nixonixand that our vaccines are just for old wuhan type... and maybe not enough b-cells maturation happening, which possibly longer intervals help, and if not, maybe adjuvanted vaccines (depending on adjuvant used)21:29
nixonixjust accidentally i found a bit older paper on sars2 spike-induced cardiomyocyte (heart muscle cells) fusion:21:36
BrainstormUpdates for Germany: +7060 cases (now 3.9 million) since 23 hours ago21:36
nixonixBillions of electromechanically coupled cardiomyocytes (CMs) make myocardium inherently vulnerable to pathological electromechanical short circuits caused by intercellular viral spread 4-6. Beyond respiratory illness, COVID-19 affects the heart7 and cardiac injury and arrhythmias are serious public health concerns21:36
nixonixso those spikes protruding from cell surface can alone induce cell membrane fusion of adjacent cells21:37
twomoonelectromechanically coupled?21:37
twomoonshort circuits? lol what are you a pacemaker engineer?21:37
nixonixif that happens enough, like in viral infection, the result in above quote21:38
twomoonyou talk about this shit like you work at a pacemaker company21:38
nixonixnow these variants like delta has increased fusiogenicity from mutations21:38
nixonixi was wondering if vaccines could do the same, like if some of it goes to vein when not aspirating21:39
nixonixand then goes to pulmonary circulation. but maybe the amounts are not enough to cause too much problem, when its not replicating virus21:40
nixonixanyways, it should show after the first dose too, not just the second. unless there are some other factors that affect only after the 2nd21:40
nixonixso the above could contribute, while not being the only reason21:40
nixonixthe other reason could be killer t-cell response, that comes with delay, so it wouldnt do after only shortly affecting mrna vaccines 1st doses21:42
nixonixboth would happen only when accidentally some of the vaccine goes in vessel21:43
nixonixand if there is that superantigen in spike, that leonardi thinks there is, making t-cells crazy and cause them to attack any cells, not just those showing the antigen in mhc-I, the damage would be increased by a lot21:44
nixonixso theres my idea, lets see if something like that will be shown some day. if, then i said it first in irc :)21:44
twomoonyou have a rather decently-sized ego21:45
nixonixthe one after word "Billion" was a quote in that study, not my text (i dont use much capitals)21:46
nixonixtwomoon is there some problem?21:47
twomoonno, i'm just kinda laughing at your statement "i said it firs tin irc"21:47
nixonixit was a joke obviously21:47
twomoonhi trbp como esta tu corazon?21:48
twomooncomo esta tu salud?21:48
trbpestam bueno21:48
trbpwent today to another er as my doc sent me again to one ;) lol, and those ers are more relaxed21:50
twomoonER can be a rough experience if there is a lot of traffic suddenly21:51
twomoonit just depends on time of day and luck21:51
trbpthough the doctor was a polite woman and said directly, i do not see any irregularities, but to be frank we can after 3 days only see it by mrt and in your situatition we just do nothing, echo blood all ruled out ok21:56
trbpstill she said if that thorax press keeps staying the mrt should be done21:56
twomoonthorax pressure?21:57
trbpi still feel like someone put a plate on my upper chest21:58
trbpbut i did not expect anything else 3 days after the incident it is not as easy i guess to correlate things together with the free to been used spectrum of insurance service...22:00
twomoonlol damn that's rough22:02
trbpah for now i am happy that i am way better than back no friday/saturday22:04
twomoonthat's good22:05
* twomoon wants german medical system22:06
trbpyou buy not enough doses for all and ever worse getting service and education though ;) but yeah ;)22:06
BrainstormNew from Novavax: (news): Novavax Statement on CDC Guidance Update for COVID-19 Clinical Trial Participants → https://is.gd/6WNzAs22:08
twomooni'm still sad about german taxpayers sponsoring bioNtech research and not being first in line for the Pfizer vaccine22:11
twomoonsucks for german taxpayers =*(22:12
de-factoBioNTech is worth 100 billion dollars now22:12
de-factoand i assume they are going to pay their taxes, so ...22:12
twomoonstill though...22:13
twomooni'm very frustrated for German citizens22:13
de-factoi am sad about CureVac, i really really do hope they can make a comeback with their 2nd gen22:13
trbpi thought nova was the newest shit off the block atm?22:14
de-factoright now we have more than enough vaccination doses offered, i could get an appointment at any time if i had not already two doses22:14
nixonixnot using pseudouridine in v2 either. that will probably hurt them (if its the reason)22:14
twomoondid CureVac fail so far?22:14
de-factonixonix, but i read they did a lot of codon improvement and changed the leading and trailing sequences, somehow got a much higher titer out of the same 12 µg, so maybe its enough? problem: its still Wuhan-Hu-1 signature22:16
BrainstormNew from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: The antibody response to vaccines among >1600 health care workers:--@Moderna_tx significantly exceeded Pfizer (median titer 3836 vs 1444 U/mL)--Prior covid higher than no prior infection (median titer 9461 vs 1613 U/ML)https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2783797… @JAMA_current → https://is.gd/wtWGJy22:19
nixonixthey said the titers were high in v1 too. lets see, but my guess is, its not enough (if the reason was lack of pseudouridine). pfizer has better codon optimization than moderna, only 30 mcg dose, and way better protection than curevac v1 (possibly modernas protection last longer due to high dose, but needs more confirmation)22:19
nixonixso if they improve just optimization, but not dose and not using pseudouridine, that isnt probably enough. especially when even pfizers protection seems to wane after 4 months (at least for old)22:20
de-facto.title https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.13.456316v1.full22:20
Brainstormde-facto: From www.biorxiv.org: Optimization of Non-Coding Regions Improves Protective Efficacy of an mRNA SARS-CoV-2 Vaccine in Nonhuman Primates | bioRxiv22:20
nixonixmy guess is, why they didnt want to use pseudouridine, not because of license fees for kariko, but they thought their alternative tech would be good enough, and they could then license it to others and make money from that22:22
de-factomaybe they also can produce it differently? what manufacturing restrictions emerge from usage of pseudouridine?22:23
nixonixlots of products in plan from moderna: https://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases/news-release-details/moderna-reports-second-quarter-fiscal-year-2021-financial/22:24
nixonixi dont know about those patent issues, but it seems they cant just use it without license22:25
nixonixyeah, could be dosing interval too. or both (amount of mrna - desbite pfizers optimization better, monerna has over 3x)22:29
nixonix*that topols tweet22:29
nixonixpart of it is the interval for sure, because its shown to increase abs and cd4 response22:32
de-factoidk why dont they do trials of that?22:32
nixonixsomehow they decided the intervals for trials, and then sticked with that22:33
de-factoshould be super cheap, just measure the antibody titers of some people with a range of dosing intervals and look for correlation22:33
de-factofit an exponential on it, calculate half life and express that as function of dosing interval if there is a correlation visible22:34
de-factoi mean in real life, there are all sorts of intervals, from super short to longer22:34
nixonixmaybe they did study the titers, but thought that its important when the epidemic was bad, that they would get the protection fast. high risk groups. and it would sell better than using eg 6-8 weeks22:35
de-factothe data is all in the medical record, they just should select some cohorts by same age that cover the whole range of dosing intervals and ask them for some blood22:35
nixonixaz used 3 weeks too, despite that its clear that longer is better with that22:36
de-factothere are so many obvious things that could be investigated, sometimes i am a bit astonished that there are not already publications about them22:36
de-factoand dosing interval optimization is quite important especially now with updates etc22:37
de-factowe really do need to have some proper data on such things22:37
nixonixlot of that information is in peoples personal medical records, that depending on country, are not available without somehow collecting them from clinics (like in usa, what i read)22:37
de-factoif they put up a website i would be more than happy to register and donate all my data22:38
de-factothen they could select appropriate candidates for representing the population and ask for their participation22:39
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: ‘Doomsday’ Covid variant detected in South Africa even worse than Delta strain → https://is.gd/IKnfVp22:40
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/142187251239310541122:40
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "On May 1 @CDCgov stopped tracking breakthrough infections unless hospitalized. That was a mistake then, but with the increased risk posed by Delta, it's more serious. [...]22:40
de-factothey just would have to provide a proper metric for comparing antibody levels to estimate the relevant decay constants22:40
nixonixab titers are not very comparable between different studies, labs etc. according to what ive read22:42
de-facto.title https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc210391622:43
Brainstormde-facto: From www.nejm.org: Antibody Persistence through 6 Months after the Second Dose of mRNA-1273 Vaccine for Covid-19 | NEJM22:43
de-factoassuming exponential decay the neutralizing titer half life was around 68-69 days22:44
de-factowith 100µg mRNA-127322:45
de-facto29 days hence 4 weeks interval i guess22:46
twomoonugh why do they need to spread fear by saying "doomsday"22:46
pwr22I decided to get one of those cheap oximeters partly out of curiosity and partly incase I need it some time22:46
de-factothey began to measure decay at 6 weeks, so 2 weeks after 2nd dose22:47
trbptwomoon: normal exaggeration machine? super hyper ultra, dead, fatal, doomed22:48
* pwr22 uploaded an image: (30KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/shortestpath.dev/RFlFcqTeymDPSrWkPYLFStnA/IMG_20210830_213055.jpg >22:48
pwr22That's me standing up, told you my pulse is high LjL 😛22:49
* pwr22 uploaded an image: (78KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/shortestpath.dev/AsMuzldkcAvRKPlVYVPmPUem/IMG_20210830_213815.jpg >22:49
de-factonice pwr22 measure at different situations to get your expectation values22:49
pwr22Sitting is also high 😛22:49
pwr22de-facto: I held my breath until it was pretty uncomfortable and it didn't drop22:50
de-factoalways with the same finger :)22:50
pwr22Which matches my experiences from being in hospital22:50
pwr22I tried a few and they are all the same22:50
BrainstormNew from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: The United States stands out in the global Delta wave@OurWorldInData A wealth of vaccines and a relative dearth of vaccinees. → https://is.gd/I7OdyX22:51
pwr22I think my readings have always been ok22:51
pwr22Except maybe right after surgery22:51
nixonixtiters in live virus neut assay seem to decrease to around 1/9 for >55 yo. but vs delta its around 1/45 (compared to what the peak was vs wuhan 1.0)22:52
pwr22Brainstorm: He should plot the UK in particular to make the US feel better22:52
nixonixand then theres that viral load difference too....22:52
nixonixinterval used in that study was 4 weeks22:52
de-factodecrease to 1/9 in what time?22:53
nixonix209 days. that bmj link22:53
de-factowhat link?22:54
nixonixsorry, nejm link22:54
LjLpwr22, it goes easily to 135 or so when i stand up, also my sat is sometimes fine but sometimes down to even 92-93, i'm really not in good shape :(22:58
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1432414115654340609/photo/122:59
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "Antibodies to #SARSCoV2 receptor binding domain in saliva induced from prior covid, mRNA vaccine and J&J vaccine. High levels of IgG in mRNA vaccinated. Salivary IgA also [...]22:59
nixonixthey didnt want to compare those vaccines in that study, so they didnt put the graph side by side. but topol did22:59
nixonixso it looks like jnj is very bad vs mucosal infection23:00
nixonixi wonder if az has similar problem...23:00
LjLnixonix, i read something that the type of antibodies you'd want to create if you wanted mucosal immunity is IgA, not IgG. can't really say i know the difference, but might that have any relevance?23:00
nixonixIgA is more effective, but the problem is, not much of that is produced with im vaccines. and for many, not at all23:01
nixonixand it decays faster23:01
de-factoyeah t2 ~ t Ln[1/2] / Ln[9] ~ 66 days with t ~ 20923:01
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Pharma: STAT+: ‘A step in the right direction for national security’: An antibiotic plant reopens in Tennessee to make penicillin → https://is.gd/NwwQtT23:01
de-factoso fits with 66, 68, 69 day-ish23:02
nixonixso we need high IgG from the current vaccines to prevent transmission efficiently. meaning 3rd shots fast enough (might depend on age, dose interval between 1st and 2nd, etc)23:02
LjLnixonix, would intranasal produce a lot of it, and would it be any use long-term?23:02
LjLnixonix, Delta-specific shot, not just 3rd shot, IMO23:02
nixonixno its probably not long term. more like every couple months boosting needed with those too23:02
nixonixand then the problem with the same viral vector, is that the same than with im vaccines?23:03
nixonixso some other type of vaccines would be needed for nasal IgA production, if it is23:03
BrainstormUpdates for Mauritius: +1529 cases (now 10196), +2 deaths (now 29) since 5 days ago — Spain: +15489 cases (now 4.8 million), +146 deaths (now 84146) since 3 days ago23:03
fooI'd be curious if anyone has watched this and thoughts:  https://youtu.be/4jAZuNwopIM23:04
nixonixhow much it will help, delta spike in vaccine? does it make vaccines as efficient than the current ones are vs wuhan 1.0 or old 614G? it isnt proven. its not just about epitopes of S, their immune evasion23:04
nixonixlook at that recent study on 1.1.7, it had immune evasion mutations in accessory proteins and what not. so updated spike wouldnt remove their effect23:05
nixonixand when those were mentioned, yes, theres lots of room for increased transmissibility and immune evasion, so delta is not the final ultimate sars223:06
nixonixnot even vs unvaccinated. just looking at that mentioned study, it should be obvious23:07
nixonixill link it when i find it23:08
LjLi hate these partial memories, i remember seeing a biorxiv or medrxiv paper yesterday, linked from somewhere, that was a v1 with the site saying a v2 was available, and i have the impression it was kind of important, but what was it23:08
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Zotero / COVID links Group / Top-Level Items: Intramuscular SARS-CoV-2 vaccines elicit varying degrees of plasma and salivary antibody responses as compared to natural infection ( https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/J8DDVHQH )23:10
nixonixB.1.1.7 variant of concern (VOC)-defining mutations outside Spike suggest that Spike-independent adaptation to host may contribute to the B.1.1.7 transmission advantage. Most B.1.1.7 coding changes map to non-structural proteins Nsp3, Nsp6, accessory protein Orf8 and nucleocapsid protein (N), all of which have been shown to modulate the innate23:14
nixoniximmune response23:14
nixonix.title https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.06.446826v1.full23:14
Brainstormnixonix: From www.biorxiv.org: Evolution of enhanced innate immune evasion by the SARS-CoV-2 B.1.1.7 UK variant | bioRxiv23:14
nixonixi actually have several papers i need to read more closer, especially about 1.1.7 mutations and their effect to nonstructural and accessory proteins and innate immune response. when ive done that, ill write about it something probably23:15
nixonixbut with this delta, probably much less is known yet23:16
de-factoyeah i think NSPs deserve much more attention23:19
nixonixaccording to that saliva paper, they dont know for sure how IgG ends up in upper respiratory. or that IgA (for IgG i think the current assumption is that plasma cells migrate up somehow, but it might also be through vessels or something)23:20
de-factoeveryone looks at S but those NSP mutations may be responsible for lots of fitness advantages23:20
nixonixwhole the damn innate immune response deserves23:20
nixonixlike that neutrophil paper ljl linked earlier23:20
fooInterview with the foudner of mRNA - https://youtu.be/4jAZuNwopIM - 30 min. Curious to hear if anyone has watched this?23:21
nixonixwho was it?23:21
foonixonix: Dr. Robert Malone23:21
nixonixi hope not malone23:21
nixonixhe didnt23:21
fooI don't know what I don't know... help me understand. I've seen his name associated with mRNA stuff... what's the deal?23:22
fooHe made some interesting points in this video, I'm simplying trying to understand23:22
nixonix.title https://www.logically.ai/factchecks/library/3aa2eefd23:22
Brainstormnixonix: From www.logically.ai: False: Dr. Robert Malone invented mRNA vaccines.23:22
foonixonix: thank you.23:22
nixonixhe has joined with anti-vaxers for some reason, especially vs mrna vaccines23:23
nixonixfor some of his specific claims (which i dont remember currently), google some counter arguments23:23
foonixonix: thanks.23:23
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): nCoV: European Union Removes US From Covid Safe List For Non-Essential Travel | 30AUG21 → https://is.gd/VGm4Oa23:24
nixonixhe was one of the important researchers around mrna23:24
nixonixsure if there are some specific malones points, if you write them here, i might now something about them and comment (despite that he is an expert, and im n ot)23:27
foohe said "you can't out-vaccine" a virus23:27
LjLnixonix, err just to show i don't know what i'm doing... which neutrophil paper did i link to?23:28
LjLalso i think https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.08.21261768v1 is the paper i meant before as forgetting that changed v1 into v2. i notice the title went from "Full vaccination suppresses SARS-CoV-2 delta variant mutation frequency" → "Full vaccination is imperative to suppress SARS-CoV-2 delta variant mutation frequency"... in my opinion study paper titles shouldn't be "editorialized" like that. newspapers do that more than enough already23:29
nixonixthis one: Granulocytes may weaken immune response in connection with COVID-1923:31
nixonixso that would mean, it will change faster than we can put out new effective vaccine versions. it seems to be happening somewhat, but they reduce the mortality a lot, at least for some months. and hopefully also organ damage etc23:32
LjLso you meant, that Brainstorm linked earlier :P because i don't even know what granulocytes are23:33
nixonix"we", well, not we but they23:33
LjLanyway i meant to put that "Full vaccination is imperative to suppress SARS-CoV-2 delta variant mutation frequency" into Zotero but now the militant title change, as well as some of the "internet peer review" comments, make me want to wait23:34
nixonixthose scientists that have went rouge with this vaccine issue, they seem to have a chip on shoulder, or some personal gain they think they can achieve. maybe money, maybe any publicity is good for them23:34
nixonixmaybe some of them just adopted a stand over year ago, and are too stubborn to update their view with any new evidence. and try their best to find something to support their stand, instead of saying they were wrong, or just be silent and try to be unnoticed for awhile23:36
LjLnixonix, if our body does "emergency myelopoiesis", why does it do it if it weakens immune response? is the virus tricking it into doing something counterproductive? or are these granulocytes needed to repair something the virus causees BUT they also weaken immunity?23:36
nixonixi think some of malone's research partners are rich now... that might bug him23:37
nixonixbone marrow related. if i recall some if not all immune cell progenitors come from red bone marrow23:38
nixonixwas it in that granulocyte paper?23:39
BrainstormUpdates for Curacao: +15 cases (now 15263), +2930 tests (now 236424) since a day ago23:40
nixonixthose type of granulocytes it was about somehow downregulate t-cells. i only read that summary in the link yet23:41
nixonixcontinuing about out-vaccinating sars2: what is the alternative, doing nothing and taking all the damage without any protection? imperfect protection is currently way better than no protection23:44
nixonixand in the future, while the advantage of the virus might temporarily increase, it will likely decrease sooner or later (nasal and oral vaccines, pan-coronavirus vaccines etc. maybe even sooner some adjuvanted vaccines etc, lets see)23:45
BrainstormNew from CIDRAP: US tops 100,000 daily COVID-19 hospital cases: Stephanie Soucheray | News Reporter | CIDRAP News Aug 30, 2021 CDC advisers vote unanimously to recommend the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine for people ages 16 and up. → https://is.gd/WgH3GL23:45
nixonixmalone has lost his war already, about vaccine efficiency and safety23:46
nixonixand for those malone, byram brindle, vanden bosschen etc type side-liners, if they have scientific arguments they want to be taken seriously, put it in research paper and publish it as peer-reviewed, instead of videos, interviews in media, videos etc23:48
LjLnixonix, yes, in the granulocyte paper23:53
LjLwell in the article about i23:54
LjLt23:54
nixonixok i checked that part in the link, it seems inflammation sars2 infection causes rapid increase of some neutrophil types in bone marrow. like in an emergency situation (which then downregulate t-cells somehow):23:54
nixonix"their effect on the progression of covid-19 appears to take place through an inhibiting effect on the proliferation and division of T lymphocytes, consequently potentially suppressing part of the adaptive immune response against the virus,"23:54
LjLi can't decide if our immune system must be very smart or very messy23:55
nixonixcomplex23:55
nixonixits incredible how all that has evolved23:55
BrainstormNew from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: On understanding #LongCovid "Let not post-COVID-19 sequelae become our encephalitis lethargically of this century."https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M21-3072@AnnalsofIM by @PaulPauwaert → https://is.gd/BcD1w823:56
nixonixi guess hundreds of million years of trial and error, and which changes improve the chance to stay alive and proliferate, meaning that collective organism, animal23:57
nixonixlike viruses dont try anything, you just meet more virus if its succesful to spread between hosts23:57
nixonixif its too succesful to proliferate in hosts important organs, too soon that the host becomes so sick that other potential hosts avoid him too soon, then you are likely to see less infected hosts that will continue the transmitting23:59

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