de-facto | also i am thinking about taking Ginkgo supplements, potentially beneficial for health and cognitive functions | 00:00 |
---|---|---|
TurboTech | Look up melatonin. | 00:02 |
de-facto | yeah with L-Tryptophan | 00:03 |
TurboTech | Sorry I get these mixed up. | 00:04 |
TurboTech | .title | 00:04 |
Brainstorm | TurboTech: From www.nu.nl: Coronapas volgens OMT nodig omdat vaccinatiegraad lager dan 95 procent is | NU - Het laatste nieuws het eerst op NU.nl | 00:04 |
TurboTech | lets try that again. | 00:04 |
TurboTech | .title https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6825477/ | 00:04 |
Brainstorm | TurboTech: From www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov: Effect Of An Extra-Virgin Olive Oil Intake On The Delay Of Cognitive Decline: Role Of Secoiridoid Oleuropein? | 00:04 |
TurboTech | They are looking into Olive oil as a potential treatment for Glioblastoma (brain cancer) | 00:05 |
TurboTech | If even slightly effective could potentially be the only treatment we know of. | 00:06 |
TurboTech | .title https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26410343/ | 00:07 |
Brainstorm | TurboTech: From pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov: Olive oil compounds inhibit the paracrine regulation of TNF-α-induced endothelial cell migration through reduced glioblastoma cell cyclooxygenase-2 expression - PubMed | 00:07 |
de-facto | .title https://febs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1016/S0014-5793%2801%2903319-1 | 00:07 |
Brainstorm | de-facto: From febs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com: Conversion of L‐tryptophan to serotonin and melatonin in human melanoma cells - Slominski - 2002 - FEBS Letters - Wiley Online Library | 00:07 |
de-facto | .title https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophan | 00:11 |
Brainstorm | de-facto: From en.wikipedia.org: Tryptophan - Wikipedia | 00:11 |
LjL | nixonix, i'm finding 200mg l-theanine (i'd rather not take more than 200mg as that's what's been looked at as safe), but without caffeine. i'd also rather not increase my caffeine intake, think it would have any effects on its own? | 00:11 |
de-facto | why not drink Matcha? :D | 00:13 |
LjL | i dunno, i could do both, i have no idea if i like matcha though | 00:14 |
nixonix | couple offtopic links that were pretty interesting: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/article/130911-neanderthal-fashion-week-clothes https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/nov/07/lethal-weapons-early-humans-neanderthals | 00:15 |
LjL | and i don't know where to buy decent matcha, while l-theanine is just pills | 00:15 |
nixonix | it supposedly does nothing without caffeine. but i never tried | 00:15 |
LjL | nixonix, maybe i can just take it in the morning when i also have a coffee? | 00:16 |
de-facto | LjL, in Matcha the contained L-Theanine kind of counter balances the contained Theine hence makes the Coffein less stressy afaik | 00:16 |
nixonix | ah you meant combo. i have those too, 200mg theanine and 100mg caffeine. but since i like to drink coffee, i have taken those only rarely | 00:16 |
nixonix | yeah, with coffee | 00:17 |
TurboTech | Good night all | 00:17 |
de-facto | gn8 | 00:17 |
LjL | well, google says a cup of espresso contains 200mg caffeine, so that should be more than enough | 00:17 |
TurboTech | Talk next time. Thanks for the chat. The wife is home and I did not get done what I needed. LOL | 00:17 |
TurboTech | I drink French Press | 00:18 |
de-facto | have a good one :) | 00:18 |
nixonix | id check big supermarkets, pharmacies and then supplement shops that sell whey and aminoacids and stuff. its easy to find here | 00:18 |
nixonix | as a powder | 00:18 |
LjL | TurboTech, i drink Nespresso, unashamedly :P | 00:19 |
LjL | de-facto, do you think matcha specifically is needed for whatever effects it may or may not have, or any green tea? | 00:20 |
LjL | (you also say black tea often?) | 00:20 |
nixonix | and no, prob not much caffeine is not needed. my recent consumption of coffee is pretty low, couple of small cups per day usually, and not espresso so guessing under 200 mg per day | 00:21 |
LjL | ah, "Deliberately shading tea plants from direct sunlight, as is done for matcha and gyokuro green tea, increases L-theanine content.[citation needed]" | 00:21 |
de-facto | well afaik black tea is a bit more potent in inactivating freely floating SARS-CoV-2 virions, but i prefer Green Tea for all of its health and cognitive benefits, plus its much nicer to my stomach :) | 00:21 |
LjL | yeah i'm thinking about the cognitive stuff now | 00:21 |
LjL | i can't figure out how to defeat SARS-COV-2 if my brain can't keep up with nixonix's papers | 00:21 |
de-facto | afaik its quite popular in Japan and China | 00:21 |
LjL | you see | 00:21 |
LjL | yeah but it's perishable and expensive | 00:22 |
de-facto | they also drink it the hole day, in a thermo-bottle | 00:22 |
de-facto | not really, here i can buy 256g Sencha for 2.69€ in the drug store | 00:23 |
de-facto | Matcha is more expensive something like 10€ per 30g or such | 00:23 |
de-facto | but still only half a teaspoon is needed for a serving | 00:23 |
nixonix | imo it green tea doesnt taste anything. maybe 10x amounts to normal should be used | 00:23 |
de-facto | yeah, i only take one table spoon dried leafs per day, it can become hepato-toxic at some threshold | 00:24 |
LjL | de-facto, hmm looks like according to wikipedia, green tea only has about 20g theanine per typical serving, and we don't even know if we get that all or it is lost in the first infusion. so a lot less than the 200mg in supplements | 00:24 |
LjL | (which may be good or bad depending how you see it) | 00:24 |
de-facto | 20mg per serving? | 00:25 |
LjL | "While it was estimated the quantity of green tea consumed by the average Japanese tea drinker per day contains about 20 mg of the substance, there are no studies measuring the amount of theanine being extracted by typical preparation methods, or the percentage lost by discarding the first infusion." | 00:25 |
LjL | so per day, not even per serving | 00:25 |
de-facto | yeah i guess more contained in Matcha? | 00:26 |
nixonix | i used those theanine-caffeine capsules to estimate the amount of powder in a small spoon to be around 300mg | 00:26 |
nixonix | because i bought those first | 00:26 |
de-facto | "1 gram of Matcha contains 19.5 milligrams of L-Theanine, so a cup of Matcha (2 grams) should contain less than 40 milligrams." | 00:27 |
LjL | de-facto, probably, but no idea how much, that's why i was wondering matcha vs "other" green tea | 00:27 |
nixonix | better buy as a powder, if you dont want to eat extra caffeine too | 00:27 |
LjL | nixonix, these capsules are just theanine, no caffeine. but let me see if there is powder, might be cheaper | 00:28 |
LjL | still, i recognize this brand, some others i see on amazon i have no idea | 00:28 |
de-facto | i want it together with all the other molecules in Camellia sinensis | 00:28 |
nixonix | 50-100 g is like €10-20 here | 00:29 |
nixonix | buy in a jar, powder bags suck | 00:29 |
de-facto | Matcha? | 00:29 |
nixonix | what is it | 00:30 |
nixonix | ah tea | 00:31 |
LjL | de-facto, he means l-theanine | 00:31 |
LjL | but i don't see powder on amazon.it, only capsules | 00:31 |
de-facto | ah ok | 00:31 |
de-facto | i meant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matcha | 00:31 |
nixonix | i only rarely drink tea. im a coffee guy | 00:32 |
de-facto | yeah i was drinking loads of coffee before, now i prefer Green Tea | 00:32 |
nixonix | maybe coffee aroma could be added to it | 00:33 |
de-facto | hehe use the same mug for transition :D | 00:33 |
LjL | de-facto, do you even like it though, or do you just "prefer" it for its benefits :P | 00:33 |
de-facto | i love the taste | 00:34 |
de-facto | actually i drink both, Coffee and Green Tea, but i prefer the taste of Green Tea now | 00:34 |
LjL | it says on wikipedia that the theanine gives is a "brothy" flavor (okay, umami, but it also says brothy), i'm not sure that *sounds* attractive :D | 00:35 |
de-facto | there is also Green Tea ice, its absolutely delicious | 00:35 |
de-facto | i did not believe it until i tried | 00:35 |
nixonix | that israel vax study was about 3rd doses, not about waning | 00:35 |
LjL | de-facto, do you buy matcha in 50g-100g bags? | 00:36 |
de-facto | no 30g tiny cans | 00:36 |
nixonix | .title https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2114255 | 00:36 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.nejm.org: Protection of BNT162b2 Vaccine Booster against Covid-19 in Israel | NEJM | 00:36 |
nixonix | l-theanine doesnt have much taste, just some flower taste | 00:37 |
de-facto | about two a month or such | 00:37 |
nixonix | flour | 00:37 |
LjL | i see, amazon mostly has 50g and 100g bags | 00:37 |
LjL | nixonix, oh there's *finally* official data from israel instead of just flashy graphs shared on twitter? | 00:38 |
de-facto | there are big quality differences | 00:38 |
nixonix | not the waning data i hoped, unless in supplementary material | 00:38 |
LjL | but only on >60 | 00:38 |
nixonix | but i calculate something from that graph, in a min | 00:39 |
LjL | de-facto, well, i'd need to try some that's known-good to know if others sucks | 00:39 |
de-facto | i am lazy i buy it in a local drugstore 50m away from my home, i dont think they export | 00:40 |
LjL | nixonix, it mentions waning immunity though with references to these two studies https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262423v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.29.21261317v1 | 00:41 |
de-facto | also look for a brand that is known to contain no pesticides | 00:42 |
de-facto | e.g. no Pyrrolizidine alkaloids and no Anthraquinone | 00:43 |
nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1436073744590639105 and from that the following VEs | 00:44 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Paul Mainwood (@PaulMainwood): "Cases, hospitalisations, death PHE graphs redone with ONS 2020 denominators. Implicit VEs for death and hospitalisation coming out at similar (90%) levels to the PHE [...] | 00:44 |
nixonix | 70-79 and 80+: cases 481/652 - 0.26 392/237 - 0, hosp 19/139 - 0.86 37/63 - 0.41, deaths 11/101 - 0.89 41/72 - 0.43 | 00:44 |
nixonix | who ever got the denominators right, ONS or PHE. way less obviously, if PHEs numbers were used | 00:46 |
nixonix | but in that PHE paper they claimed that for over 65 yo, healthy elders efficacy wasnt effected much | 00:47 |
nixonix | affected | 00:47 |
de-facto | VE = 1 - (breakthroughs/vaccinated) / (cases/unvaccinated) | 00:49 |
nixonix | it seems that graph was only week 36. maybe he has older weeks too, in case sample sizes were too small for hospitalizations and deaths, to see if theres a waning trend | 00:56 |
nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1438235428067307520 | 01:00 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "As anticipated (2nd in thread), the FDA internal review disagreed with Pfizer's recommendations https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-says-covid-19-vaccines-remain-effective- [...] | 01:00 |
nixonix | lots of people have got 3rd dose in usa already. they just walk in and get the shot | 01:00 |
lastshell | is true that natural inmunity is better than vaccines ? | 01:02 |
grys | good question, i'm interested also | 01:05 |
grys | i understand that natural immunity is more risky to obtain than a vaccine; many people died trying to do so, whereas not so many die when obtaining a vaccine. but that's probably obvious. | 01:06 |
grys | also another important point, as far as i understand, after being vaccinated, the restrictions are eased, and it's my uneducated guess that a vast majority will have a (hopefully mild) post-vaccination infection in any case. | 01:06 |
nixonix | it depends. it look like it is, if you got hospitalized, otherwise isnt. but better vs infection, symptomatic, severe etc. protection waning rates are probably different between natural infection and vaccination | 01:06 |
nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1438246537033699335 | 01:06 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "3. Small 3rd shot-> Neutralizing antibody study vs Wild-type and Delta by age group, showing significant increase immune response not much affected by variant or age" | [...] | 01:06 |
nixonix | the point with vaccines is to avoid that natural infection, though | 01:07 |
nixonix | or get reduced symptoms and damage | 01:08 |
nixonix | and hopefully reduce chance of infecting other people | 01:08 |
grys | reduced symptoms and damage, i think | 01:11 |
nixonix | in that low dose moderna paper, cd8 response varied a lot between people. suggesting that it isnt essential in protection vs hospitalizations or deaths, imo. maybe its that matured memory b-cells then | 01:15 |
nixonix | it was low dose, though, 25 mcg | 01:15 |
nixonix | using longer dose intevals increase circulating ab titers, and lowers killer t-cell response. if it was about the latter, protection vs hospitalization, shorter interval should be better then | 01:17 |
specing | why do you say mcg when the unit is ug? | 01:21 |
specing | (I'd write mu but my keyboard doesen't have it) | 01:21 |
nixonix | maybe i have similar reasons | 01:22 |
specing | ((technically, the unit is gram, but the SI prefix is u (greek mu))) | 01:22 |
dTal | μ <--here you go | 01:24 |
nixonix | anyways, my current guess is, at least with mrna vaccines, the protection vs hospitalization is mostly about antibodies too. killer t-cells just help, if you have them | 01:24 |
dTal | anyway I prefer picotonnes to micrograms | 01:25 |
nixonix | arent there several types of tonnes | 01:26 |
dTal | a metric tonne is 1000kg | 01:26 |
dTal | naturally | 01:26 |
nixonix | short or long ton | 01:26 |
dTal | no | 01:26 |
dTal | metric | 01:26 |
nixonix | and i think depends on country too | 01:27 |
nixonix | uk, canada, usa, all different tonnes | 01:27 |
dTal | Met. Ric. | 01:27 |
nixonix | you have to add (metric) then | 01:27 |
dTal | no I do not | 01:28 |
dTal | it's no business of mine whether some people foolishly stick to measuring hogshead per furlong or what have you | 01:28 |
dTal | the context, alternate units for micrograms, was clearly SI | 01:28 |
dTal | and in SI, one picotonne == 1 μg | 01:29 |
nixonix | Prior to decimalisation in 1971, there were 12 pence (written as 12d) in a shilling (written as 1s or 1/-) and 20 shillings in a pound, written as £1 (occasionally "L" was used instead of the pound sign, £). There were therefore 240 pence in a pound. For example, 2 pounds 14 shillings and 5 pence could have been written as £2 14s 5d or £2 14/5. | 01:29 |
dTal | frankly I don't give a farthing | 01:29 |
twomoon | heh | 01:30 |
nixonix | all your invention, that mess | 01:30 |
nixonix | quarter penny | 01:30 |
de-facto | gonna visit my parents tomorrow, i wonder if i should go for a PCR test or if lateral flow test suffice, i dont have reason to assume it may be positive or such, but who knows | 01:32 |
dTal | we used to have 8ths but they were too pointy and poked holed in everyone's pockets | 01:32 |
dTal | de-facto: are they vaxed? are you vaxed? were you recently exposed? | 01:32 |
de-facto | we all are vaccinated | 01:32 |
de-facto | noone exposed to best of our knowledge | 01:32 |
de-facto | but parents vaccinated in early 2020, me in july | 01:33 |
dTal | You don't have time for a PCR anyway | 01:33 |
LjL | early 2020 O.O | 01:35 |
specing | de-facto: testing yourself seems excessive when you are all vaccinated | 01:35 |
de-facto | i just did a lateral flow its negative it seems | 01:35 |
de-facto | lol early 2021 of course | 01:36 |
de-facto | i think they got the 3 weeks BNT shots in march or such | 01:36 |
de-facto | i got 6 weeks moderna in july | 01:37 |
nixonix | we need rona badges that say that, but also how many micrograms | 01:38 |
nixonix | and with what spike, in the future | 01:38 |
nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1438253687244165120 | 01:41 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "New data on @Moderna_tx vaccine also shows waning of immunity, 36% fewer symptomatic breakthrough infections in an 8-month follow-up compared with 13-month, which the company [...] | 01:41 |
nixonix | mixed data, only the last period was delta time... | 01:44 |
nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/denise_dewald/status/1438196591144407054 checking what leonardi has today - something like this naturally (as a retweat) | 01:48 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Denise Dewald, MD 🗽 (@denise_dewald): "Spike protein may facilitate the aggregation of proteins whose build-up in the brain is linked to Alzheimer's, like beta-amyloid and tau. More evidence that you [...] | 01:48 |
nixonix | you dont want to party with that guy... | 01:48 |
de-facto | hmm from that ft data, why do i get half-life T2 ~ (13−8)×30d×Ln(1÷2)÷Ln(1÷1,36) ~ 338d ? | 01:52 |
de-facto | 92% of a year that seems to be too long | 01:52 |
de-facto | almost 5 times too long | 01:53 |
de-facto | i thought N(t) = N(t0) (1/2)^((t-t0)/t2) hence t2 = (t-t0) Ln(1/2) / Ln(N(t)/N(t0)) right? | 01:57 |
nixonix | that would be for protection, where several things are affecting. in the beginning it seems to be mostly about circulating neut abs, but later other components affect more | 01:59 |
nixonix | also, i dont remember for sure was it even sars2, they found that neut abs (i think) stabilized in a year or a bit less | 02:00 |
nixonix | long-lived plasma cells keep producing small amounts of antibodies, when short-lived die | 02:00 |
LjL | offtopic reminder if anyone care: SpaceX launching with crew, in a minute https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pv01sSq44w | 02:01 |
de-facto | yeah nixonix so actual fit function would be more like a sum of two exponentials with different half-life | 02:02 |
nixonix | but then for protection, even if they have accurate results for several reasons, its delta time now | 02:02 |
nixonix | multiple different things affecting the protection. killer t-cells, many other sub-lineages of t-cells, innate response etc. depending on virus and individual | 02:04 |
nixonix | was late. parachute landing? | 02:05 |
de-facto | looking good :) | 02:06 |
aggie | %cases US | 04:26 |
Brainstorm | aggie: United States has had 40.1 million confirmed cases (12.2% of all people) and 654371 deaths (1.6% of cases) as of 12 days ago. 588.4 million tests were done (6.8% positive). 205.9 million were vaccinated (62.5%). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=United%20States | 04:26 |
Brainstorm | aggie: If you know of an official or otherwise good site for data about United States, with a reasonably short URL, please %tell LjL about it. | 04:26 |
aggie | sorry, still learning my way around IRC | 04:30 |
LjL | that's fine | 04:32 |
LjL | it was just trying to co-opt you into the data URL providing machinery | 04:33 |
LjL | we employ only limited amounts of child labor | 04:33 |
aggie | that's understandable, children are small so the amount of labor you can get from them is limited... | 04:33 |
LjL | heh | 04:33 |
zzz_ | . | 13:31 |
CoJaBo | , | 13:38 |
de-facto | (👁👁) | 15:56 |
lastshell | holy shit those numbers are bad Brainstorm | 16:24 |
jbwncster | Today is the day of atonement and remembrance | 16:32 |
LjL | wait speaking of numbers | 17:04 |
LjL | it hasn't been posting daily numbers lately has it...? | 17:04 |
pwr22 | Hmm, dunno | 18:01 |
nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/Metadoc/status/1437108442972528651 one view, maybe from dude worth following for epi things. not sure if i fully agree we can say that yet, since different types of infections and antibodies produced | 18:27 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Paul Hunter (@Metadoc): "I did not account for the fact that 24% of people with proven infections do not develop Ab (higher in people with mild or asymptomatic infection as in most younger peope) [...] | 18:27 |
nixonix | .title https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/phe-duration-of-protection-of-covid-19-vaccines-against-clinical-disease-9-september-2021 | 18:27 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.gov.uk: PHE: Duration of protection of COVID-19 vaccines against clinical disease, 9 September 2021 - GOV.UK | 18:27 |
nixonix | az waning vs hospitalization looks bad for >64. 3rd doses needed fast even with long intervals | 18:29 |
nixonix | i havent paid much attention to that since they reduced its use here. before that i was vocal since it looked like controlling spreading with that was impossible (and now with delta it is with mrna vaccines too) | 18:31 |
nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/FindTheDiff/status/1437881525018759173 | 18:36 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Find_The_Differences (@FindTheDiff): "Look Switzerland. Today! Help!! " | nitter | 18:36 |
nixonix | .title https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/09/18/despite-delta-severe-covid-19-is-much-rarer-among-vaccinated-britons | 18:41 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.economist.com: Despite Delta, severe covid-19 is much rarer among vaccinated Britons | The Economist | 18:41 |
specing | ^ vaccines work, surprise surprise | 18:42 |
nixonix | looking at those N curves, if abs wouldnt wane off below sensitivity threshold, there shouldnt be drops (unless too small sample size including geographical etc distribution used). so it looks like it wanes, and doesnt show the total shares of infected | 18:42 |
nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1438521508909912071 delta + 3rd dose = alpha + 2 doses. time travelling! | 18:48 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "The @IsraelMOH will be presenting at the @US_FDA meeting tomorrow on boosters. Their data are compelling evidence for the benefit for age 60 and greater to prevent severe [...] | 18:48 |
nixonix | those hc officials saying 3rd doses would be needed only for some high risk groups - what happened to the idea, that one important puropose of vaccines was to control the epidemic, reduce spreading? not only to prevent severe symptoms and protect hospital capacity | 18:50 |
nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1438514700019388422 uses HexaPro instead of 2-SP! | 18:56 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "Yet another step towards a pan-sarbecovirus vaccine that could be broadly effective against all #SARSCoV2 variants using receptor binding domain nanoparticles [...] | 18:56 |
nixonix | btw i saved the biorxiv preprint of that in march. now its as a preproof stage in cell. no wonder hc officials dont know much about new research... | 18:57 |
nixonix | thats one of those mclellan vaxes | 19:00 |
nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/EWayedd/status/1412646979935641602 | 19:09 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: ady bee (@EWayedd): "According to Zahawi everything is fine , “children only need 2-3 days on oxygen .... and most don’t need intubation“. https://www.channel4.com/news/advice-on-covid-vaccinations- [...] | 19:09 |
imaginary | not exactly finding that very comforting | 19:09 |
nixonix | if he really said that, its funny in very sick way | 19:09 |
imaginary | crazy world honestly | 19:10 |
lastshell | https://www.tga.gov.au/media-release/new-restrictions-prescribing-ivermectin-covid-19 | 19:11 |
nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/candyspets2/status/1412674972477239300 to be used, when your country has a "freedom day" (meme pic) | 19:16 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Candy Gregory RN💙 (@candyspets2): "" | El Pajarito de NoGAFAM | 19:16 |
nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/gianlucac1/status/1438524761420742657 | 19:24 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: gianluca c 🏴☠️🇻🇪 #TeamFauci #MaskUp #no papers (@gianlucac1): "MOH to FDA on booster shot https://www.fda.gov/media/152205/download" | nitter | 19:24 |
nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/Pravduh15/status/1438206814101901323 some anecdotes, more if you click open the first post in the thread | 19:29 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Pravduh (@Pravduh15): "I had long COVID. I got 1 dose of Moderna and had adverse affects. 4 months later I got COVID again! It wasn't as bad the 2nd time and it's been over a month, no long symptoms [...] | 19:29 |
IndoAnon | >what happened to the idea, that one important puropose of vaccines was to control the epidemic,< forgotten, discarded, because it doesn't fit the narrative | 20:46 |
LjL | it doesn't fit the way vaccines are actually working with delta | 20:46 |
LjL | not sure if that's "the narrative" | 20:46 |
IndoAnon | Well, I'm sure you're familiar with this number "60%" | 20:47 |
LjL | i'm sure i'm familiar with it in multiple contexts | 20:48 |
IndoAnon | hmm, LjL | 20:53 |
IndoAnon | You're still masking after being """vaccinated""", right? | 20:54 |
dTal | why all the quotes | 20:54 |
imaginary | IndoAnon: why don't you just say what you wanna say | 20:55 |
IndoAnon | Because >what happened to the idea, that one important puropose of vaccines was to control the epidemic | 20:55 |
dTal | Delta variant happened | 20:56 |
dTal | now what are you implying | 20:56 |
IndoAnon | Ah, dTal ,have you heard of any continuation of human challenge that UK commissioned, that was previously commissioned to open orphan® | 20:57 |
dTal | No I have no idea what you're talking about. | 20:58 |
IndoAnon | .title https://www.gov.uk/government/news/expert-partnership-to-explore-and-establish-human-challenge-studies-of-covid-19-in-the-uk | 20:59 |
Brainstorm | IndoAnon: From www.gov.uk: Expert partnership to explore and establish Human Challenge studies of COVID-19 in the UK - GOV.UK | 20:59 |
dTal | How about you just give the channel a straight answer | 21:00 |
dTal | what are you saying, and why are you putting "vaccinated" in scare quotes | 21:00 |
IndoAnon | I have said it though | 21:00 |
IndoAnon | does it prevent the spreading of non Indian strain? | 21:01 |
dTal | Insofar as people are less likely to be infected when vaccinated, yes | 21:01 |
pwr22 | There is very clear science that the vaccines substantially improve outcomes even against Delta and such | 21:01 |
pwr22 | Lowering the risk substantially | 21:01 |
dTal | And also, as pwr22 says, improving outcomes in the event of a breakthrough. | 21:02 |
dTal | Vaccines are a clear win with almost no downsides. | 21:02 |
IndoAnon | So, it doesn't provide herd immunity | 21:02 |
pwr22 | Herm immunity isn't binary | 21:02 |
pwr22 | Immunity isn't binary | 21:03 |
pwr22 | It's reasonable to say it provides greater herd immunity but not absolute protection from the current strains causing problems | 21:03 |
dTal | Do you disagree with "Vaccines are a clear win with almost no downsides."? | 21:03 |
pwr22 | Vs not being vaccinated | 21:03 |
IndoAnon | dTal, clearly, we know from the amount of deaths | 21:04 |
IndoAnon | from adverse events, and when they got infected | 21:04 |
pwr22 | The vaccines are deployed at enormous scale and are very well tolerated with few dangerous side effects except in very rare cases. The risk from covid given non-vaccination is greater than the risk of taking any of the vaccines | 21:04 |
IndoAnon | How "very rare" pwr22, put the number | 21:05 |
dTal | how about *you* "put the number" | 21:05 |
IndoAnon | So, you don't know, dTal? | 21:05 |
pwr22 | IndoAnon: > The risk from covid given non-vaccination is greater than the risk of taking any of the vaccines | 21:05 |
dTal | since you're apparently saying that vaccines don't work and people are dropping like flies from vax complications | 21:05 |
pwr22 | That's all that matters | 21:05 |
IndoAnon | All I see, is you put anecdote | 21:06 |
pwr22 | I just don't feel the need to go do detailed research for you | 21:06 |
dTal | what anecdote? | 21:06 |
pwr22 | This isn't a channel for "alternative covid facts or discussion" but I'm sure there are those out there that you might be more comfortable in? | 21:07 |
IndoAnon | Oh, really? Because you don't ever feel the need to get someone who denies your statement to the knee? | 21:07 |
pwr22 | I said one thing, you are saying another. Neither of us has more onus to substantiate with good evidence and neither of us has | 21:07 |
IndoAnon | Well, let me put nome images | 21:07 |
IndoAnon | *some | 21:07 |
dTal | IndoAnon hasn't actually asserted anything | 21:08 |
pwr22 | But you are in the minority in this channel and most people here have seen such evidence in this channel many times before so we all accept this | 21:08 |
dTal | they've only waggled their eyebrows a lot | 21:08 |
imaginary | IndoAnon: feel free to leave if you're just gonna continue to ask leading and/or ambiguous questions without actually stateing anything | 21:08 |
pwr22 | I would say they've asserted being contrarian 😀 | 21:08 |
imaginary | pwr22: definitely not outright, they're posing as someone just "asking simple questions" in my mind | 21:08 |
IndoAnon | https://files.catbox.moe/i2bkkf.jpg | 21:09 |
IndoAnon | imaginary: Wow, such a statement | 21:09 |
pwr22 | I'm not really inclined to click that | 21:09 |
dTal | If you came out and said "vaccines don't work and the complication risk isn't worth it", I'd at least respect that | 21:09 |
dTal | we could discuss it as a factual matter | 21:09 |
dTal | but this rhetorical style is ew | 21:09 |
pwr22 | My matrix client isn't previewing it for some reason which makes me suspicious | 21:09 |
IndoAnon | pffft | 21:09 |
IndoAnon | you want matrix? ok | 21:09 |
pwr22 | I don't want anything except to not click that link 😀 | 21:10 |
pwr22 | What is it meant to be telling me? | 21:10 |
dTal | it's a chart with some red lines in it | 21:10 |
pwr22 | IRC is fine ^_^. I meant it is odd that my matrix client didn't preview the image link - it would normally do that automatically | 21:10 |
dTal | if it's meant to be self explanatory, it's not | 21:11 |
dTal | like everything else from IndoAnon | 21:11 |
pwr22 | Yeah, what are you asserting concretely IndoAnon? | 21:11 |
indoanon[m] | Still afraid? | 21:11 |
* indoanon[m] uploaded an image: (622KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/pbZZJCQKwkCprCmDXPGgKMLs/i2bkkf.jpg > | 21:11 | |
pwr22 | Thanks 🙂 | 21:12 |
pwr22 | I eventually clicked anyway as I trust dTal | 21:12 |
pwr22 | 😀 | 21:12 |
indoanon[m] | ;p | 21:12 |
pwr22 | Yeah, what is the conclusions that go along with this data? | 21:12 |
pwr22 | I don't have the context to interpret it so would appreciate your explanation | 21:12 |
dTal | *crickets* | 21:13 |
IndoAnon | sorry for the delay, need to find it on my folder first | 21:14 |
IndoAnon | there's like thousands of images | 21:14 |
pwr22 | Sure, but without any analysis or understanding those aren't necessarily useful | 21:14 |
pwr22 | 😀 | 21:14 |
pwr22 | I don't actually save or store the papers or primary sources I digest because they are publicly available, come with a proper analysis and go through peer review | 21:15 |
IndoAnon | I don't want to be rude, but did you fully trust the peer review? Even after high profile papers got pulled back last year? | 21:19 |
pwr22 | I trust it more than lack of peer review | 21:19 |
pwr22 | Sorry for distracting you anyhow, did you find the analysis of those numbers? | 21:20 |
IndoAnon | Analysis? | 21:20 |
pwr22 | > I don't have the context to interpret it so would appreciate your explanation | 21:21 |
pwr22 | That stuff | 21:21 |
IndoAnon | Can't you interpret them yourself? I mean, even middle schooler could interpret a table | 21:22 |
pwr22 | We don't really tolerate insults here either | 21:22 |
pwr22 | If you won't want to actually discuss your beliefs then this isn't the place for you I'm afraid | 21:23 |
pwr22 | IndoAnon: Without context you have just thrown me a bunch of numbers | 21:23 |
dTal | IndoAnon buddy that's not how it works | 21:24 |
dTal | you don't get to go around waggling your eyebrows and then chucking undigested charts at people when they ask you what the fuck you're on about | 21:24 |
dTal | say what you mean or gtfo | 21:24 |
pwr22 | Well I mean you do - but if you do and then you start insulting people and persist then you get kicked | 21:25 |
IndoAnon | Ara, that sounds like you need herd think | 21:25 |
pwr22 | But maybe you get some internet points or something? | 21:25 |
dTal | ...okay we're in wake up sheeple territory | 21:25 |
dTal | I'm done | 21:25 |
dTal | this is too obnoxious for me | 21:26 |
IndoAnon | ok, dTal | 21:26 |
IndoAnon | I think you have know me for what, 18 months now? | 21:27 |
pwr22 | I think you know by now that we don't really do "alternative facts" here | 21:27 |
dTal | I have, and I don't remember you being *quite* this annoying | 21:30 |
* indoanon[m] uploaded an image: (228KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/WVSXaqYcYGuWPqbqQOBqvrkx/1630411691207.png > | 21:41 | |
indoanon[m] | so, pwr22, there's some text on this one | 21:42 |
indoanon[m] | Or do you need someone who's certified as statistician to interpret it for you? | 21:44 |
pwr22 | I mean, yes because there is again no actual interpretation of hte data | 21:44 |
indoanon[m] | <dTal> "I have, and I don't remember you..." <- I think cews still remember | 21:44 |
pwr22 | This is just a figure that would be a very small part of an overall paper sigh | 21:44 |
IndoAnon | Not a paper though | 21:45 |
IndoAnon | it's a fucking slide LOL | 21:45 |
IndoAnon | https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-08-30/04-COVID-Klein-508.pdf | 21:45 |
pwr22 | This doesn't say anything about the prevalence rates, you need the context of the whole thing | 21:49 |
pwr22 | the only slide you can take in a vacuum and have make sense is this one | 21:49 |
* pwr22 uploaded an image: (170KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/shortestpath.dev/nShYwUCShDSAzFhIFZQVeCRg/image.png > | 21:49 | |
pwr22 | The occurrence of myocarditis / pericarditis in those data is like single digits out of a million too | 21:50 |
pwr22 | So in conclusion, a very small number | 21:51 |
pwr22 | There's much more data out there that corroborates the same too | 21:52 |
pwr22 | As I suggested earlier | 21:52 |
IndoAnon | That's, from one condition | 21:54 |
IndoAnon | Even cancer, has many of variation, but counted as one single category | 21:55 |
pwr22 | I don't have anymore to add. The accepted science shows vaccines are good. That's the view accepted in this channel 🤷 | 21:56 |
IndoAnon | What's "accepted science shows", anyway | 21:56 |
IndoAnon | Does what CDC director said qualified? | 21:57 |
IndoAnon | Also, I suggest you to read this https://kamounlab.medium.com/the-triumphs-of-post-publication-peer-review-abef40466164 | 21:58 |
pwr22 | You can believe what you want but this isn't the place for you if you're up for discussing those sorts of things so please keep the fringe stuff out of here from now on 🙂 | 22:00 |
IndoAnon | https://files.catbox.moe/p2g51c.jpg | 22:00 |
IndoAnon | pwr22, edge cases are important | 22:01 |
pwr22 | Regardless that's the rules here | 22:01 |
pwr22 | It is accepted science that delta does spread quite well even in vaccinated people when they get it yes | 22:01 |
pwr22 | And a lot do still get it | 22:01 |
IndoAnon | does truth matter? | 22:01 |
pwr22 | but overall outcomes are greatly improved with vaccinations vs no vaccination | 22:02 |
nixonix | was that about the recent study, that claimed they found more myo/pericarditis in VAERS than cdc? (they didnt make any checks if the cases reported there were correct) | 22:06 |
nixonix | they were turned down from a few journals, then published it anyway | 22:07 |
nixonix | something like double what cdc found, among 12-15 yo if i recall. but nothing huge, and unconfirmed cases anyway | 22:08 |
pwr22 | I don't think anything to do with that was involved in the discussions here just now 😀 | 22:09 |
pwr22 | But I did only skim that medium thing | 22:10 |
nixonix | .title https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/958778 | 22:10 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.medscape.com: COVID Vaccine Preprint Study Prompts Twitter Outrage | 22:10 |
IndoAnon | So, what did you thought, pwr22? | 22:19 |
nixonix | .title https://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases/news-release-details/moderna-announces-health-canada-approves-its-covid-19-vaccine first full approval in the world, apparently | 22:25 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From investors.modernatx.com: Moderna Announces Health Canada Approves its COVID-19 Vaccine | Moderna, Inc. | 22:25 |
pwr22 | IndoAnon: I'm not really interested in continuing our conversation. I think we've said all there is to say and I think I've made it quite clear that this channel is not the place for that conversation | 22:26 |
IndoAnon | Okay, how about you send the message to ##coronavirus-vox? | 22:29 |
nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/GuptaR_lab/status/1438523204612489216 | 22:30 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Gupta Lab (@GuptaR_lab): "Important to emphasise this biology of chronic infection in generating COVID-19 variants. Incredible how many blank stares I get when mentioning this is likely how variants [...] | 22:30 |
ublx | IndoAnon: ? | 22:31 |
nixonix | .title https://www.mississippifreepress.org/15930/pediatric-diabetes-surge-in-mississippi-doctors-concerned-covid-19-is-to-blame/ | 22:34 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.mississippifreepress.org: Pediatric Diabetes Surge in Mississippi: Doctors Concerned COVID-19 Is To Blame | 22:34 |
pwr22 | Oh Nicki Minaj is saying covid stops your balls working or something lol | 22:35 |
lastshell | she has nice balls :P | 22:35 |
lastshell | but fauci refuse that theory of swollen balls | 22:35 |
nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1438322704248082436 | 22:35 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Feigl-Ding (@DrEricDing): "2) Once again… #COVID19 vaccines don’t cause swollen testicles." | El Pajarito de NoGAFAM | 22:35 |
nixonix | only the dong swells bigger | 22:37 |
IndoAnon | Not you ublx | 22:37 |
lastshell | haha | 22:37 |
IndoAnon | lastshell: hmm, I still remember when a guy stay erect for >4 hours because blood clot from SARS-CoV-2 | 22:38 |
lastshell | wow 4 hrs | 22:39 |
IndoAnon | hopefully there's no nurse who inject the jabs on the groin | 22:39 |
pwr22 | Maybe that's what happened 😛 | 22:39 |
lastshell | https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02519-1 | 22:41 |
lastshell | Did the coronavirus jump from animals to people twice? ^ | 22:41 |
IndoAnon | >let me get the new vial >*prepared the dose* >*walk back to the patient* >*stumble upon something* >*thumbs in plunger* >*syringe went to leg, near the nether part* | 22:43 |
nixonix | serial passage, whether between cell cultures or species, speeds up the adaptation to new host species | 22:43 |
nixonix | ah they are thinking two different origins, and trying to prove it (A and B lineages). funny if it was plausible, only now that would come to somebodys mind | 22:48 |
nixonix | "Lineages A and B are defined by two key nucleotide differences. But some of the earliest genomes have a combination of these differences." which suggests common ancestor, imo | 22:49 |
IndoAnon | mmm | 22:51 |
IndoAnon | After mink-o-caust, I wonder why there's no investigation to mink farms in mainland | 22:53 |
nixonix | nah. instead of one rare event, which would be either lab leak or spillover that ends up to cause a pandemic, there would be two such events, and actually two different pandemic at the same time. nope | 22:53 |
TurboTech | Good afternoon everyone | 22:55 |
IndoAnon | that would be really complex lel | 22:56 |
nixonix | and on top of two rare events at the same time, it would also need ad hoc hypothesis of discrediting the intermediate samples (which would prove they have common origin), as a sequencing error that just happens to be something that makes A and B look like they have a common origin... | 22:56 |
nixonix | i will rather buy a used virus from a salesman than believe that hypothesis | 22:57 |
TurboTech | Did anyone read the new study out saying that vaccine immunity lasts 4 months. | 22:58 |
IndoAnon | TurboTech: I think it's 31 days though. pfizer and j&j | 22:59 |
TurboTech | I would hope not | 22:59 |
IndoAnon | And the wordings from cdc makes you scratches your head | 23:00 |
IndoAnon | (separate instance) | 23:00 |
ublx | the wordings from IndoAnon make you scratches your head | 23:00 |
IndoAnon | >If the primary series of COMIRNATY is still effective in preventing important COVID-19-related outcomes, then the benefit of booster vaccination is likely to be more limited than if effectiveness following the primary series has waned substantially. | 23:01 |
IndoAnon | https://www.fda.gov/media/152176/download | 23:01 |
ublx | yes ok, that could have been written more clearly, or less tautologically | 23:02 |
lastshell | Turbotech is been said between 4 to 6 months anbodies going down | 23:03 |
nixonix | the above meaning, if the severe breakthrough cases havent increased (much). israel has data on that, with short intervals, and uk some data, but it wasnt stratified by age group, only too large like 64+ etc | 23:05 |
nixonix | i linked earlier those israel's slides, they will present to fda tomorrow (i think) | 23:05 |
TurboTech | I found one last night. | 23:05 |
nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1438521508909912071 link in this tweet | 23:06 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "The @IsraelMOH will be presenting at the @US_FDA meeting tomorrow on boosters. Their data are compelling evidence for the benefit for age 60 and greater to prevent severe [...] | 23:06 |
IndoAnon | If they thought people are misinterpreting their statements, they should be more verbose | 23:09 |
nixonix | .title https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/09/15/who-suspended-sputnik-v-approval-process-over-manufacturing-breaches-a75058 | 23:09 |
TurboTech | I do not think the northeast US is counting cases correctly | 23:10 |
IndoAnon | it's a mess | 23:14 |
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