libera/##covid-19/ Thursday, 2021-09-16

de-factoalso i am thinking about taking Ginkgo supplements, potentially beneficial for health and cognitive functions00:00
TurboTechLook up melatonin.00:02
de-factoyeah with L-Tryptophan00:03
TurboTechSorry I get these mixed up.00:04
TurboTech.title00:04
BrainstormTurboTech: From www.nu.nl: Coronapas volgens OMT nodig omdat vaccinatiegraad lager dan 95 procent is | NU - Het laatste nieuws het eerst op NU.nl00:04
TurboTechlets try that again.00:04
TurboTech.title https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6825477/00:04
BrainstormTurboTech: From www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov: Effect Of An Extra-Virgin Olive Oil Intake On The Delay Of Cognitive Decline: Role Of Secoiridoid Oleuropein?00:04
TurboTechThey are looking into Olive oil as a potential treatment for Glioblastoma (brain cancer)00:05
TurboTechIf even slightly effective could potentially be the only treatment we know of.00:06
TurboTech.title https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26410343/00:07
BrainstormTurboTech: From pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov: Olive oil compounds inhibit the paracrine regulation of TNF-α-induced endothelial cell migration through reduced glioblastoma cell cyclooxygenase-2 expression - PubMed00:07
de-facto.title https://febs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1016/S0014-5793%2801%2903319-100:07
Brainstormde-facto: From febs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com: Conversion of L‐tryptophan to serotonin and melatonin in human melanoma cells - Slominski - 2002 - FEBS Letters - Wiley Online Library00:07
de-facto.title https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophan00:11
Brainstormde-facto: From en.wikipedia.org: Tryptophan - Wikipedia00:11
LjLnixonix, i'm finding 200mg l-theanine (i'd rather not take more than 200mg as that's what's been looked at as safe), but without caffeine. i'd also rather not increase my caffeine intake, think it would have any effects on its own?00:11
de-factowhy not drink Matcha? :D00:13
LjLi dunno, i could do both, i have no idea if i like matcha though00:14
nixonixcouple offtopic links that were pretty interesting: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/article/130911-neanderthal-fashion-week-clothes  https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/nov/07/lethal-weapons-early-humans-neanderthals00:15
LjLand i don't know where to buy decent matcha, while l-theanine is just pills00:15
nixonixit supposedly does nothing without caffeine. but i never tried00:15
LjLnixonix, maybe i can just take it in the morning when i also have a coffee?00:16
de-factoLjL, in Matcha the contained L-Theanine kind of counter balances the contained Theine hence makes the Coffein less stressy afaik00:16
nixonixah you meant combo. i have those too, 200mg theanine and 100mg caffeine. but since i like to drink coffee, i have taken those only rarely00:16
nixonixyeah, with coffee00:17
TurboTechGood night all00:17
de-factogn800:17
LjLwell, google says a cup of espresso contains 200mg caffeine, so that should be more than enough00:17
TurboTechTalk next time.  Thanks for the chat.  The wife is home and I did not get done what I needed.  LOL00:17
TurboTechI drink French Press00:18
de-factohave a good one :)00:18
nixonixid check big supermarkets, pharmacies and then supplement shops that sell whey and aminoacids and stuff. its easy to find here00:18
nixonixas a powder00:18
LjLTurboTech, i drink Nespresso, unashamedly :P00:19
LjLde-facto, do you think matcha specifically is needed for whatever effects it may or may not have, or any green tea?00:20
LjL(you also say black tea often?)00:20
nixonixand no, prob not much caffeine is not needed. my recent consumption of coffee is pretty low, couple of small cups per day usually, and not espresso so guessing under 200 mg per day00:21
LjLah, "Deliberately shading tea plants from direct sunlight, as is done for matcha and gyokuro green tea, increases L-theanine content.[citation needed]"00:21
de-factowell afaik black tea is a bit more potent in inactivating freely floating SARS-CoV-2 virions, but i prefer Green Tea for all of its health and cognitive benefits, plus its much nicer to my stomach :)00:21
LjLyeah i'm thinking about the cognitive stuff now00:21
LjLi can't figure out how to defeat SARS-COV-2 if my brain can't keep up with nixonix's papers00:21
de-factoafaik its quite popular in Japan and China00:21
LjLyou see00:21
LjLyeah but it's perishable and expensive00:22
de-factothey also drink it the hole day, in a thermo-bottle00:22
de-factonot really, here i can buy 256g Sencha for 2.69€ in the drug store00:23
de-factoMatcha is more expensive something like 10€ per 30g or such00:23
de-factobut still only half a teaspoon is needed for a serving00:23
nixoniximo it green tea doesnt taste anything. maybe 10x amounts to normal should be used00:23
de-factoyeah, i only take one table spoon dried leafs per day, it can become hepato-toxic at some threshold00:24
LjLde-facto, hmm looks like according to wikipedia, green tea only has about 20g theanine per typical serving, and we don't even know if we get that all or it is lost in the first infusion. so a lot less than the 200mg in supplements00:24
LjL(which may be good or bad depending how you see it)00:24
de-facto20mg per serving?00:25
LjL"While it was estimated the quantity of green tea consumed by the average Japanese tea drinker per day contains about 20 mg of the substance, there are no studies measuring the amount of theanine being extracted by typical preparation methods, or the percentage lost by discarding the first infusion."00:25
LjLso per day, not even per serving00:25
de-factoyeah i guess more contained in Matcha?00:26
nixonixi used those theanine-caffeine capsules to estimate the amount of powder in a small spoon to be around 300mg00:26
nixonixbecause i bought those first00:26
de-facto"1 gram of Matcha contains 19.5 milligrams of L-Theanine, so a cup of Matcha (2 grams) should contain less than 40 milligrams."00:27
LjLde-facto, probably, but no idea how much, that's why i was wondering matcha vs "other" green tea00:27
nixonixbetter buy as a powder, if you dont want to eat extra caffeine too00:27
LjLnixonix, these capsules are just theanine, no caffeine. but let me see if there is powder, might be cheaper00:28
LjLstill, i recognize this brand, some others i see on amazon i have no idea00:28
de-factoi want it together with all the other molecules in Camellia sinensis00:28
nixonix50-100 g is like €10-20 here00:29
nixonixbuy in a jar, powder bags suck00:29
de-factoMatcha?00:29
nixonixwhat is it00:30
nixonixah tea00:31
LjLde-facto, he means l-theanine00:31
LjLbut i don't see powder on amazon.it, only capsules00:31
de-factoah ok00:31
de-factoi meant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matcha00:31
nixonixi only rarely drink tea. im a coffee guy00:32
de-factoyeah i was drinking loads of coffee before, now i prefer Green Tea00:32
nixonixmaybe coffee aroma could be added to it00:33
de-factohehe use the same mug for transition :D00:33
LjLde-facto, do you even like it though, or do you just "prefer" it for its benefits :P00:33
de-factoi love the taste00:34
de-factoactually i drink both, Coffee and Green Tea, but i prefer the taste of Green Tea now00:34
LjLit says on wikipedia that the theanine gives is a "brothy" flavor (okay, umami, but it also says brothy), i'm not sure that *sounds* attractive :D00:35
de-factothere is also Green Tea ice, its absolutely delicious00:35
de-factoi did not believe it until i tried00:35
nixonixthat israel vax study was about 3rd doses, not about waning00:35
LjLde-facto, do you buy matcha in 50g-100g bags?00:36
de-factono 30g tiny cans00:36
nixonix.title https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa211425500:36
Brainstormnixonix: From www.nejm.org: Protection of BNT162b2 Vaccine Booster against Covid-19 in Israel | NEJM00:36
nixonixl-theanine doesnt have much taste, just some flower taste00:37
de-factoabout two a month or such00:37
nixonixflour00:37
LjLi see, amazon mostly has 50g and 100g bags00:37
LjLnixonix, oh there's *finally* official data from israel instead of just flashy graphs shared on twitter?00:38
de-factothere are big quality differences00:38
nixonixnot the waning data i hoped, unless in supplementary material00:38
LjLbut only on >6000:38
nixonixbut i calculate something from that graph, in a min00:39
LjLde-facto, well, i'd need to try some that's known-good to know if others sucks00:39
de-factoi am lazy i buy it in a local drugstore 50m away from my home, i dont think they export00:40
LjLnixonix, it mentions waning immunity though with references to these two studies https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262423v1  https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.29.21261317v100:41
de-factoalso look for a brand that is known to contain no pesticides00:42
de-factoe.g. no Pyrrolizidine alkaloids and no Anthraquinone00:43
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1436073744590639105  and from that the following VEs00:44
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Paul Mainwood (@PaulMainwood): "Cases, hospitalisations, death PHE graphs redone with ONS 2020 denominators. Implicit VEs for death and hospitalisation coming out at similar (90%) levels to the PHE [...]00:44
nixonix70-79 and 80+: cases 481/652 - 0.26  392/237 - 0, hosp 19/139 - 0.86  37/63 - 0.41, deaths 11/101 - 0.89  41/72 - 0.4300:44
nixonixwho ever got the denominators right, ONS or PHE. way less obviously, if PHEs numbers were used00:46
nixonixbut in that PHE paper they claimed that for over 65 yo, healthy elders efficacy wasnt effected much00:47
nixonixaffected00:47
de-factoVE = 1 - (breakthroughs/vaccinated) / (cases/unvaccinated)00:49
nixonixit seems that graph was only week 36. maybe he has older weeks too, in case sample sizes were too small for hospitalizations and deaths, to see if theres a waning trend00:56
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/143823542806730752001:00
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "As anticipated (2nd in thread), the FDA internal review disagreed with Pfizer's recommendations https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-says-covid-19-vaccines-remain-effective- [...]01:00
nixonixlots of people have got 3rd dose in usa already. they just walk in and get the shot01:00
lastshellis true that natural inmunity is better than vaccines ?01:02
grysgood question, i'm interested also01:05
grysi understand that natural immunity is more risky to obtain than a vaccine; many people died trying to do so, whereas not so many die when obtaining a vaccine. but that's probably obvious.01:06
grysalso another important point, as far as i understand, after being vaccinated, the restrictions are eased, and it's my uneducated guess that a vast majority will have a (hopefully mild) post-vaccination infection in any case.01:06
nixonixit depends. it look like it is, if you got hospitalized, otherwise isnt. but better vs infection, symptomatic, severe etc. protection waning rates are probably different between natural infection and vaccination01:06
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/143824653703369933501:06
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "3. Small 3rd shot-> Neutralizing antibody study vs Wild-type and Delta by age group, showing significant increase immune response not much affected by variant or age" | [...]01:06
nixonixthe point with vaccines is to avoid that natural infection, though01:07
nixonixor get reduced symptoms and damage01:08
nixonixand hopefully reduce chance of infecting other people01:08
grysreduced symptoms and damage, i think01:11
nixonixin that low dose moderna paper, cd8 response varied a lot between people. suggesting that it isnt essential in protection vs hospitalizations or deaths, imo. maybe its that matured memory b-cells then01:15
nixonixit was low dose, though, 25 mcg01:15
nixonixusing longer dose intevals increase circulating ab titers, and lowers killer t-cell response. if it was about the latter, protection vs hospitalization, shorter interval should be better then01:17
specingwhy do you say mcg when the unit is ug?01:21
specing(I'd write mu but my keyboard doesen't have it)01:21
nixonixmaybe i have similar reasons01:22
specing((technically, the unit is gram, but the SI prefix is u (greek mu)))01:22
dTalμ <--here you go01:24
nixonixanyways, my current guess is, at least with mrna vaccines, the protection vs hospitalization is mostly about antibodies too. killer t-cells just help, if you have them01:24
dTalanyway I prefer picotonnes to micrograms01:25
nixonixarent there several types of tonnes01:26
dTala metric tonne is 1000kg01:26
dTalnaturally01:26
nixonixshort or long ton01:26
dTalno01:26
dTalmetric01:26
nixonixand i think depends on country too01:27
nixonixuk, canada, usa, all different tonnes01:27
dTalMet. Ric.01:27
nixonixyou have to add (metric) then01:27
dTalno I do not01:28
dTalit's no business of mine whether some people foolishly stick to measuring hogshead per furlong or what have you01:28
dTalthe context, alternate units for micrograms, was clearly SI01:28
dTaland in SI, one picotonne == 1 μg01:29
nixonixPrior to decimalisation in 1971, there were 12 pence (written as 12d) in a shilling (written as 1s or 1/-) and 20 shillings in a pound, written as £1 (occasionally "L" was used instead of the pound sign, £). There were therefore 240 pence in a pound. For example, 2 pounds 14 shillings and 5 pence could have been written as £2 14s 5d or £2 14/5.01:29
dTalfrankly I don't give a farthing01:29
twomoonheh01:30
nixonixall your invention, that mess01:30
nixonixquarter penny01:30
de-factogonna visit my parents tomorrow, i wonder if i should go for a PCR test or if lateral flow test suffice, i dont have reason to assume it may be positive or such, but who knows01:32
dTalwe used to have 8ths but they were too pointy and poked holed in everyone's pockets01:32
dTalde-facto: are they vaxed? are you vaxed? were you recently exposed?01:32
de-factowe all are vaccinated01:32
de-factonoone exposed to best of our knowledge01:32
de-factobut parents vaccinated in early 2020, me in july01:33
dTalYou don't have time for a PCR anyway01:33
LjLearly 2020 O.O01:35
specingde-facto: testing yourself seems excessive when you are all vaccinated01:35
de-factoi just did a lateral flow its negative it seems01:35
de-factolol early 2021 of course01:36
de-factoi think they got the 3 weeks BNT shots in march or such01:36
de-factoi got 6 weeks moderna in july01:37
nixonixwe need rona badges that say that, but also how many micrograms01:38
nixonixand with what spike, in the future01:38
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/143825368724416512001:41
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "New data on @Moderna_tx vaccine also shows waning of immunity, 36% fewer symptomatic breakthrough infections in an 8-month follow-up compared with 13-month, which the company [...]01:41
nixonixmixed data, only the last period was delta time...01:44
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/denise_dewald/status/1438196591144407054  checking what leonardi has today - something like this naturally (as a retweat)01:48
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Denise Dewald, MD 🗽 (@denise_dewald): "Spike protein may facilitate the aggregation of proteins whose build-up in the brain is linked to Alzheimer's, like beta-amyloid and tau. More evidence that you [...]01:48
nixonixyou dont want to party with that guy...01:48
de-factohmm from that ft data, why do i get half-life T2 ~ (13−8)×30d×Ln(1÷2)÷Ln(1÷1,36) ~ 338d ?01:52
de-facto92% of a year that seems to be too long01:52
de-factoalmost 5 times too long01:53
de-factoi thought N(t) = N(t0) (1/2)^((t-t0)/t2) hence t2 = (t-t0) Ln(1/2) / Ln(N(t)/N(t0)) right?01:57
nixonixthat would be for protection, where several things are affecting. in the beginning it seems to be mostly about circulating neut abs, but later other components affect more01:59
nixonixalso, i dont remember for sure was it even sars2, they found that neut abs (i think) stabilized in a year or a bit less02:00
nixonixlong-lived plasma cells keep producing small amounts of antibodies, when short-lived die02:00
LjLofftopic reminder if anyone care: SpaceX launching with crew, in a minute https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pv01sSq44w02:01
de-factoyeah nixonix so actual fit function would be more like a sum of two exponentials with different half-life02:02
nixonixbut then for protection, even if they have accurate results for several reasons, its delta time now02:02
nixonixmultiple different things affecting the protection. killer t-cells, many other sub-lineages of t-cells, innate response etc. depending on virus and individual02:04
nixonixwas late. parachute landing?02:05
de-factolooking good :)02:06
aggie%cases US04:26
Brainstormaggie: United States has had 40.1 million confirmed cases (12.2% of all people) and 654371 deaths (1.6% of cases) as of 12 days ago. 588.4 million tests were done (6.8% positive). 205.9 million were vaccinated (62.5%). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=United%20States04:26
Brainstormaggie: If you know of an official or otherwise good site for data about United States, with a reasonably short URL, please %tell LjL about it.04:26
aggiesorry, still learning my way around IRC04:30
LjLthat's fine04:32
LjLit was just trying to co-opt you into the data URL providing machinery04:33
LjLwe employ only limited amounts of child labor04:33
aggiethat's understandable, children are small so the amount of labor you can get from them is limited...04:33
LjLheh04:33
zzz_.13:31
CoJaBo,13:38
de-facto(👁👁)15:56
lastshellholy shit those numbers are bad Brainstorm16:24
jbwncsterToday is the day of atonement and remembrance16:32
LjLwait speaking of numbers17:04
LjLit hasn't been posting daily numbers lately has it...?17:04
pwr22Hmm, dunno18:01
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/Metadoc/status/1437108442972528651 one view, maybe from dude worth following for epi things. not sure if i fully agree we can say that yet, since different types of infections and antibodies produced18:27
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Paul Hunter (@Metadoc): "I did not account for the fact that 24% of people with proven infections do not develop Ab (higher in people with mild or asymptomatic infection as in most younger peope) [...]18:27
nixonix.title https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/phe-duration-of-protection-of-covid-19-vaccines-against-clinical-disease-9-september-202118:27
Brainstormnixonix: From www.gov.uk: PHE: Duration of protection of COVID-19 vaccines against clinical disease, 9 September 2021 - GOV.UK18:27
nixonixaz waning vs hospitalization looks bad for >64. 3rd doses needed fast even with long intervals18:29
nixonixi havent paid much attention to that since they reduced its use here. before that i was vocal since it looked like controlling spreading with that was impossible (and now with delta it is with mrna vaccines too)18:31
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/FindTheDiff/status/143788152501875917318:36
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Find_The_Differences (@FindTheDiff): "Look Switzerland. Today! Help!! " | nitter18:36
nixonix.title https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/09/18/despite-delta-severe-covid-19-is-much-rarer-among-vaccinated-britons18:41
Brainstormnixonix: From www.economist.com: Despite Delta, severe covid-19 is much rarer among vaccinated Britons | The Economist18:41
specing^ vaccines work, surprise surprise18:42
nixonixlooking at those N curves, if abs wouldnt wane off below sensitivity threshold, there shouldnt be drops (unless too small sample size including geographical etc distribution used). so it looks like it wanes, and doesnt show the total shares of infected18:42
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1438521508909912071 delta + 3rd dose = alpha + 2 doses. time travelling!18:48
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "The @IsraelMOH will be presenting at the @US_FDA meeting tomorrow on boosters. Their data are compelling evidence for the benefit for age 60 and greater to prevent severe [...]18:48
nixonixthose hc officials saying 3rd doses would be needed only for some high risk groups - what happened to the idea, that one important puropose of vaccines was to control the epidemic, reduce spreading? not only to prevent severe symptoms and protect hospital capacity18:50
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1438514700019388422  uses HexaPro instead of 2-SP!18:56
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "Yet another step towards a pan-sarbecovirus vaccine that could be broadly effective against all #SARSCoV2 variants using receptor binding domain nanoparticles [...]18:56
nixonixbtw i saved the biorxiv preprint of that in march. now its as a preproof stage in cell. no wonder hc officials dont know much about new research...18:57
nixonixthats one of those mclellan vaxes19:00
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/EWayedd/status/141264697993564160219:09
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: ady bee (@EWayedd): "According to Zahawi everything is fine , “children only need 2-3 days on oxygen .... and most don’t need intubation“. https://www.channel4.com/news/advice-on-covid-vaccinations- [...]19:09
imaginarynot exactly finding that very comforting19:09
nixonixif he really said that, its funny in very sick way19:09
imaginarycrazy world honestly19:10
lastshellhttps://www.tga.gov.au/media-release/new-restrictions-prescribing-ivermectin-covid-1919:11
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/candyspets2/status/1412674972477239300 to be used, when your country has a "freedom day" (meme pic)19:16
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Candy Gregory RN💙 (@candyspets2): "" | El Pajarito de NoGAFAM19:16
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/gianlucac1/status/143852476142074265719:24
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: gianluca c 🏴‍☠️🇻🇪 #TeamFauci #MaskUp #no papers (@gianlucac1): "MOH to FDA on booster shot https://www.fda.gov/media/152205/download" | nitter19:24
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/Pravduh15/status/1438206814101901323  some anecdotes, more if you click open the first post in the thread19:29
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Pravduh (@Pravduh15): "I had long COVID. I got 1 dose of Moderna and had adverse affects. 4 months later I got COVID again! It wasn't as bad the 2nd time and it's been over a month, no long symptoms [...]19:29
IndoAnon>what happened to the idea, that one important puropose of vaccines was to control the epidemic,< forgotten, discarded, because it doesn't fit the narrative20:46
LjLit doesn't fit the way vaccines are actually working with delta20:46
LjLnot sure if that's "the narrative"20:46
IndoAnonWell, I'm sure you're familiar with this number "60%"20:47
LjLi'm sure i'm familiar with it in multiple contexts20:48
IndoAnonhmm, LjL20:53
IndoAnonYou're still masking after being """vaccinated""", right?20:54
dTalwhy all the quotes20:54
imaginaryIndoAnon: why don't you just say what you wanna say20:55
IndoAnonBecause >what happened to the idea, that one important puropose of vaccines was to control the epidemic20:55
dTalDelta variant happened20:56
dTalnow what are you implying20:56
IndoAnonAh, dTal ,have you heard of any continuation of human challenge that UK commissioned, that was previously commissioned to open orphan®20:57
dTalNo I have no idea what you're talking about.20:58
IndoAnon.title https://www.gov.uk/government/news/expert-partnership-to-explore-and-establish-human-challenge-studies-of-covid-19-in-the-uk20:59
BrainstormIndoAnon: From www.gov.uk: Expert partnership to explore and establish Human Challenge studies of COVID-19 in the UK - GOV.UK20:59
dTalHow about you just give the channel a straight answer21:00
dTalwhat are you saying, and why are you putting "vaccinated" in scare quotes21:00
IndoAnonI have said it though21:00
IndoAnondoes it prevent the spreading of non Indian strain?21:01
dTalInsofar as people are less likely to be infected when vaccinated, yes21:01
pwr22There is very clear science that the vaccines substantially improve outcomes even against Delta and such21:01
pwr22Lowering the risk substantially21:01
dTalAnd also, as pwr22 says, improving outcomes in the event of a breakthrough.21:02
dTalVaccines are a clear win with almost no downsides.21:02
IndoAnonSo, it doesn't provide herd immunity21:02
pwr22Herm immunity isn't binary21:02
pwr22Immunity isn't binary21:03
pwr22It's reasonable to say it provides greater herd immunity but not absolute protection from the current strains causing problems21:03
dTalDo you disagree with "Vaccines are a clear win with almost no downsides."?21:03
pwr22Vs not being vaccinated21:03
IndoAnondTal, clearly, we know from the amount of deaths21:04
IndoAnonfrom adverse events, and when they got infected21:04
pwr22The vaccines are deployed at enormous scale and are very well tolerated with few dangerous side effects except in very rare cases. The risk from covid given non-vaccination is greater than the risk of taking any of the vaccines21:04
IndoAnonHow "very rare" pwr22, put the number21:05
dTalhow about *you* "put the number"21:05
IndoAnonSo, you don't know, dTal?21:05
pwr22IndoAnon: > The risk from covid given non-vaccination is greater than the risk of taking any of the vaccines21:05
dTalsince you're apparently saying that vaccines don't work and people are dropping like flies from vax complications21:05
pwr22That's all that matters21:05
IndoAnonAll I see, is you put anecdote21:06
pwr22I just don't feel the need to go do detailed research for you21:06
dTalwhat anecdote?21:06
pwr22This isn't a channel for "alternative covid facts or discussion" but I'm sure there are those out there that you might be more comfortable in?21:07
IndoAnonOh, really? Because you don't ever feel the need to get someone who denies your statement to the knee?21:07
pwr22I said one thing, you are saying another. Neither of us has more onus to substantiate with good evidence and neither of us has21:07
IndoAnonWell, let me put nome images21:07
IndoAnon*some21:07
dTalIndoAnon hasn't actually asserted anything21:08
pwr22But you are in the minority in this channel and most people here have seen such evidence in this channel many times before so we all accept this21:08
dTalthey've only waggled their eyebrows a lot21:08
imaginaryIndoAnon: feel free to leave if you're just gonna continue to ask leading and/or ambiguous questions without actually stateing anything21:08
pwr22I would say they've asserted being contrarian 😀21:08
imaginarypwr22: definitely not outright, they're posing as someone just "asking simple questions" in my mind21:08
IndoAnonhttps://files.catbox.moe/i2bkkf.jpg21:09
IndoAnonimaginary: Wow, such a statement21:09
pwr22I'm not really inclined to click that21:09
dTalIf you came out and said "vaccines don't work and the complication risk isn't worth it", I'd at least respect that21:09
dTalwe could discuss it as a factual matter21:09
dTalbut this rhetorical style is ew21:09
pwr22My matrix client isn't previewing it for some reason which makes me suspicious21:09
IndoAnonpffft21:09
IndoAnonyou want matrix? ok21:09
pwr22I don't want anything except to not click that link 😀21:10
pwr22What is it meant to be telling me?21:10
dTalit's a chart with some red lines in it21:10
pwr22IRC is fine ^_^. I meant it is odd that my matrix client didn't preview the image link - it would normally do that automatically21:10
dTalif it's meant to be self explanatory, it's not21:11
dTallike everything else from IndoAnon21:11
pwr22Yeah, what are you asserting concretely IndoAnon?21:11
indoanon[m]Still afraid?21:11
* indoanon[m] uploaded an image: (622KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/pbZZJCQKwkCprCmDXPGgKMLs/i2bkkf.jpg >21:11
pwr22Thanks 🙂21:12
pwr22I eventually clicked anyway as I trust dTal21:12
pwr22😀21:12
indoanon[m];p21:12
pwr22Yeah, what is the conclusions that go along with this data?21:12
pwr22I don't have the context to interpret it so would appreciate your explanation21:12
dTal*crickets*21:13
IndoAnonsorry for the delay, need to find it on my folder first21:14
IndoAnonthere's like thousands of images21:14
pwr22Sure, but without any analysis or understanding those aren't necessarily useful21:14
pwr22😀21:14
pwr22I don't actually save or store the papers or primary sources I digest because they are publicly available, come with a proper analysis and go through peer review21:15
IndoAnonI don't want to be rude, but did you fully trust the peer review? Even after high profile papers got pulled back last year?21:19
pwr22I trust it more than lack of peer review21:19
pwr22Sorry for distracting you anyhow, did you find the analysis of those numbers?21:20
IndoAnonAnalysis?21:20
pwr22> I don't have the context to interpret it so would appreciate your explanation21:21
pwr22That stuff21:21
IndoAnonCan't you interpret them yourself? I mean, even middle schooler could interpret a table21:22
pwr22We don't really tolerate insults here either21:22
pwr22If you won't want to actually discuss your beliefs then this isn't the place for you I'm afraid21:23
pwr22IndoAnon: Without context you have just thrown me a bunch of numbers21:23
dTalIndoAnon buddy that's not how it works21:24
dTalyou don't get to go around waggling your eyebrows and then chucking undigested charts at people when they ask you what the fuck you're on about21:24
dTalsay what you mean or gtfo21:24
pwr22Well I mean you do - but if you do and then you start insulting people and persist then you get kicked21:25
IndoAnonAra, that sounds like you need herd think21:25
pwr22But maybe you get some internet points or something?21:25
dTal...okay we're in wake up sheeple territory21:25
dTalI'm done21:25
dTalthis is too obnoxious for me21:26
IndoAnonok, dTal21:26
IndoAnonI think you have know me for what, 18 months now?21:27
pwr22I think you know by now that we don't really do "alternative facts" here21:27
dTalI have, and I don't remember you being *quite* this annoying21:30
* indoanon[m] uploaded an image: (228KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/WVSXaqYcYGuWPqbqQOBqvrkx/1630411691207.png >21:41
indoanon[m]so, pwr22, there's some text on this one21:42
indoanon[m]Or do you need someone who's certified as statistician to interpret it for you?21:44
pwr22I mean, yes because there is again no actual interpretation of hte data21:44
indoanon[m]<dTal> "I have, and I don't remember you..." <- I think cews still remember21:44
pwr22This is just a figure that would be a very small part of an overall paper sigh21:44
IndoAnonNot a paper though21:45
IndoAnonit's a fucking slide LOL21:45
IndoAnonhttps://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-08-30/04-COVID-Klein-508.pdf21:45
pwr22This doesn't say anything about the prevalence rates, you need the context of the whole thing21:49
pwr22the only slide you can take in a vacuum and have make sense is this one21:49
* pwr22 uploaded an image: (170KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/shortestpath.dev/nShYwUCShDSAzFhIFZQVeCRg/image.png >21:49
pwr22The occurrence of myocarditis / pericarditis in those data is like single digits out of a million too21:50
pwr22So in conclusion, a very small number21:51
pwr22 There's much more data out there that corroborates the same too21:52
pwr22As I suggested earlier21:52
IndoAnonThat's, from one condition21:54
IndoAnonEven cancer, has many of variation, but counted as one single category21:55
pwr22I don't have anymore to add. The accepted science shows vaccines are good. That's the view accepted in this channel 🤷21:56
IndoAnonWhat's "accepted science shows", anyway21:56
IndoAnonDoes what CDC director said qualified?21:57
IndoAnonAlso, I suggest you to read this https://kamounlab.medium.com/the-triumphs-of-post-publication-peer-review-abef4046616421:58
pwr22You can believe what you want but this isn't the place for you if you're up for discussing those sorts of things so please keep the fringe stuff out of here from now on 🙂22:00
IndoAnonhttps://files.catbox.moe/p2g51c.jpg22:00
IndoAnonpwr22, edge cases are important22:01
pwr22Regardless that's the rules here22:01
pwr22It is accepted science that delta does spread quite well even in vaccinated people when they get it yes22:01
pwr22And a lot do still get it22:01
IndoAnondoes truth matter?22:01
pwr22but overall outcomes are greatly improved with vaccinations vs no vaccination22:02
nixonixwas that about the recent study, that claimed they found more myo/pericarditis in VAERS than cdc? (they didnt make any checks if the cases reported there were correct)22:06
nixonixthey were turned down from a few journals, then published it anyway22:07
nixonixsomething like double what cdc found, among 12-15 yo if i recall. but nothing huge, and unconfirmed cases anyway22:08
pwr22I don't think anything to do with that was involved in the discussions here just now 😀22:09
pwr22But I did only skim that medium thing22:10
nixonix.title https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/95877822:10
Brainstormnixonix: From www.medscape.com: COVID Vaccine Preprint Study Prompts Twitter Outrage22:10
IndoAnonSo, what did you thought, pwr22?22:19
nixonix.title https://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases/news-release-details/moderna-announces-health-canada-approves-its-covid-19-vaccine  first full approval in the world, apparently22:25
Brainstormnixonix: From investors.modernatx.com: Moderna Announces Health Canada Approves its COVID-19 Vaccine | Moderna, Inc.22:25
pwr22IndoAnon: I'm not really interested in continuing our conversation. I think we've said all there is to say and I think I've made it quite clear that this channel is not the place for that conversation22:26
IndoAnonOkay, how about you send the message to ##coronavirus-vox?22:29
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/GuptaR_lab/status/143852320461248921622:30
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Gupta Lab (@GuptaR_lab): "Important to emphasise this biology of chronic infection in generating COVID-19 variants. Incredible how many blank stares I get when mentioning this is likely how variants [...]22:30
ublxIndoAnon: ?22:31
nixonix.title https://www.mississippifreepress.org/15930/pediatric-diabetes-surge-in-mississippi-doctors-concerned-covid-19-is-to-blame/22:34
Brainstormnixonix: From www.mississippifreepress.org: Pediatric Diabetes Surge in Mississippi: Doctors Concerned COVID-19 Is To Blame22:34
pwr22Oh Nicki Minaj is saying covid stops your balls working or something lol22:35
lastshellshe has nice balls :P22:35
lastshellbut fauci refuse that theory of swollen balls22:35
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/143832270424808243622:35
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Feigl-Ding (@DrEricDing): "2) Once again… #COVID19 vaccines don’t cause swollen testicles." | El Pajarito de NoGAFAM22:35
nixonixonly the dong swells bigger22:37
IndoAnonNot you ublx22:37
lastshellhaha22:37
IndoAnonlastshell: hmm, I still remember when a guy stay erect for >4 hours because blood clot from SARS-CoV-222:38
lastshellwow 4 hrs22:39
IndoAnonhopefully there's no nurse who inject the jabs on the groin22:39
pwr22Maybe that's what happened 😛22:39
lastshellhttps://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02519-122:41
lastshellDid the coronavirus jump from animals to people twice? ^22:41
IndoAnon>let me get the new vial >*prepared the dose* >*walk back to the patient* >*stumble upon something* >*thumbs in plunger* >*syringe went to leg, near the nether part*22:43
nixonixserial passage, whether between cell cultures or species, speeds up the adaptation to new host species22:43
nixonixah they are thinking two different origins, and trying to prove it (A and B lineages). funny if it was plausible, only now that would come to somebodys mind22:48
nixonix"Lineages A and B are defined by two key nucleotide differences. But some of the earliest genomes have a combination of these differences." which suggests common ancestor, imo22:49
IndoAnonmmm22:51
IndoAnonAfter mink-o-caust, I wonder why there's no investigation to mink farms in mainland22:53
nixonixnah. instead of one rare event, which would be either lab leak or spillover that ends up to cause a pandemic, there would be two such events, and actually two different pandemic at the same time. nope22:53
TurboTechGood afternoon everyone22:55
IndoAnonthat would be really complex lel22:56
nixonixand on top of two rare events at the same time, it would also need ad hoc hypothesis of discrediting the intermediate samples (which would prove they have common origin), as a sequencing error that just happens to be something that makes A and B look like they have a common origin...22:56
nixonixi will rather buy a used virus from a salesman than believe that hypothesis22:57
TurboTechDid anyone read the new study out saying that vaccine immunity lasts 4 months.22:58
IndoAnonTurboTech: I think it's 31 days though. pfizer and j&j22:59
TurboTechI would hope not22:59
IndoAnonAnd the wordings from cdc makes you scratches your head23:00
IndoAnon(separate instance)23:00
ublxthe wordings from IndoAnon make you scratches your head23:00
IndoAnon>If the primary series of COMIRNATY is still effective in preventing important COVID-19-related outcomes, then the benefit of booster vaccination is likely to be more limited than if effectiveness following the primary series has waned substantially.23:01
IndoAnonhttps://www.fda.gov/media/152176/download23:01
ublxyes ok, that could have been written more clearly, or less tautologically23:02
lastshellTurbotech is been said between 4 to 6 months anbodies going down23:03
nixonixthe above meaning, if the severe breakthrough cases havent increased (much). israel has data on that, with short intervals, and uk some data, but it wasnt stratified by age group, only too large like 64+ etc23:05
nixonixi linked earlier those israel's slides, they will present to fda tomorrow (i think)23:05
TurboTechI found one last night.23:05
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1438521508909912071  link in this tweet23:06
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "The @IsraelMOH will be presenting at the @US_FDA meeting tomorrow on boosters. Their data are compelling evidence for the benefit for age 60 and greater to prevent severe [...]23:06
IndoAnonIf they thought people are misinterpreting their statements, they should be more verbose23:09
nixonix.title https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/09/15/who-suspended-sputnik-v-approval-process-over-manufacturing-breaches-a7505823:09
TurboTechI do not think the northeast US is counting cases correctly23:10
IndoAnonit's a mess23:14

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