libera/##covid-19/ Monday, 2021-09-27

BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Mass brawls reported as pandemic restrictions are lifted in Norway → https://is.gd/I0rBHp00:00
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/LawtonTri/status/144143414913552384200:00
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: 𝚃𝚘𝚖 𝙻𝚊𝚠𝚝𝚘𝚗 💙 (@LawtonTri): "Our new preprint on hospital-acquired COVID-19 in NHS Trusts in England Based on the analyses we've been doing of HAIs in England. First the good news: rates have dropped, [...]00:00
nixonixwell if they havent brawled for awhile...00:01
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/drdeanjones/status/1436352065685573636  link to study in following tweets (been here prob)00:03
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Dean Jones (@drdeanjones): "Chance of myocarditis following Covid infection, M and F, 12-15 and 16-19 (based on US case data): M12-15: 601 per million (1 in 1664) M16-19: 561 per million (1 in 1783) [...]00:03
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/bachyns/status/1441756426628739072  another study, you remember this one00:05
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Dr Kathleen Bachynski (@bachyns): ""An inaccurate Canadian study suggesting an extremely high rate of heart inflammation after COVID-19 vaccines has been retracted due to a major mathematical error — [...]00:05
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/apsmunro/status/1441430002466234370  this was a great barrington dude, if i recall00:06
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Alasdair Munro (@apsmunro): "It's over 3 weeks since schools reopened in England after summer - what's happening in the #COVID19 data? I'll be honest with you, it's a mess I've got no idea what's [...]00:06
BrainstormNew from COVID tweets: David Fisman (@DFisman): When we first started modeling covid in January 2020, it was clear based on an outbreak size of ~ 4000 (based on exports), an R of 2.3, and a plausible serial interval of 5-7 days, that this epidemic started earlier than December 2019acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/m2… twitter.com/ydeigin/status… [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/8YKcl900:11
LjLnixonix, i certainly remember being perplexed at something suggesting 1/1000 heart inflammation, not sure if it was that one but seems likely00:19
LjLLibera/##covid-19/2021-09-17.log:[20:15:08] <IndoAnon> > mRNA COVID-19 Vaccination and Development of CMR-confirmed Myopericarditis https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.13.21262182v1 > Incidence of myopericarditis overall was approximately 10 cases for every 10,000 innoculations.00:20
LjLIndoAnon, you may want to check out https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-19-vaccine-study-error-anti-vaxxers-1.6188806 on that study00:20
LjLor just the retraction statement at https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.13.21262182v200:21
nixonix.title https://view-hub.org/sites/default/files/2021-09/COVID19%20VE%20Studies_Forest%20Plots_1.pdf00:24
Brainstormnixonix: From view-hub.org: Results of COVID-19 Vaccine Effectiveness Studies: An Ongoing Systematic Review Forest Plots (Melissa Higdon)00:24
nixonix.title https://view-hub.org/resources  was a bit hard to find the source of it, but here. maybe something interesting besides that one00:25
Brainstormnixonix: From view-hub.org: Resource Library | ViewHub00:25
LjLinteresting if a little overwhelming view00:25
LjLif only it had an rss feed :(00:26
LjLthey also have some vaccine maps https://view-hub.org/covid-19/?set=vaccine-product-current-planned&group=vaccine-introduction&category=covid00:26
LjLnixonix, https://view-hub.org/covid-19/characteristics/ interesting, this has a short description of the cold chain requirements00:27
LjLand i think this is the source for which studies they've used in that PDF https://view-hub.org/covid-19/studies/00:28
nixonixsays -80 - -60 for pfizer. maybe not updated00:28
nixonixsputnik needs a freezer unlike az00:30
nixonixwell, colder means longer time, might be just that00:30
nixonixtell me if you find something interesting from tables of the first link00:31
LjLyeah to know the details of how long you can keep it etc you will need something longer than these summaries00:32
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Zotero / COVID links Group / Top-Level Items: COVID19 Vaccine Efficacy Studies Forest Plots 1 ( https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/UEY3ZW48 )00:32
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Zotero / COVID links Group / Top-Level Items: Covid-19 Vaccine Characteristics | ViewHub ( https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/NXP78TFT )00:32
nixonix.title https://github.com/epiforecasts/covidregionaldata  you prob have this one00:36
Brainstormnixonix: From github.com: GitHub - epiforecasts/covidregionaldata: An interface to subnational and national level COVID-19 data. For all countries supported, this includes a daily time-series of cases. Wherever available we [...]00:36
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Zotero / COVID links Group / Top-Level Items: Covid-19 Vaccine Studies | ViewHub ( https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/JJ52YWIV )00:37
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Zotero / COVID links Group / Top-Level Items: Resource Library | ViewHub ( https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/VJ7AM5BC )00:37
LjLyeah i have it, although i should probably change the way i link to the source code (it's in "Attachments" now), now that i've figured out how "Related" works in Zotero :P https://www.zotero.org/groups/4391070/covid_links/collections/84MP3SUX/items/E3WTDDAT/collection00:39
nixonix.title https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-estimates00:39
Brainstormnixonix: From www.economist.com: The pandemic’s true death toll | The Economist00:39
nixonixyou can compare countries there. although prob not adjusted properly, considering trends (like in sweden excess deaths have gone down for like quarter century, so you cant use average of the last several years), the missing wintertime flu etc seasonal epidemics, summer time heat waves etc00:41
nixonixthose mentioned being the biggest ones i think, needing to adjust for00:42
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Zotero / COVID links Group / Top-Level Items: Temporal variation in transmission during the COVID-19 outbreak ( https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/ETZ6829V )00:42
LjLi have that one too, it's cool, it's behind soft paywall, but it does have a description of their methods AND the source code00:43
LjLmethodology https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/05/13/how-we-estimated-the-true-death-toll-of-the-pandemic  code https://github.com/TheEconomist/covid-19-the-economist-global-excess-deaths-model00:44
nixonix.title https://covid-19.sciensano.be/nl/covid-19-epidemiologische-situatie00:46
Brainstormnixonix: From covid-19.sciensano.be: COVID-19 - Epidemiologische situatie | Coronavirus Covid-1900:46
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Zotero / COVID links Group / Top-Level Items: The Economist&#39;s excess deaths model ( https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/875UN6Q3 )00:47
LjLit's a bit annoying to use though this Zotero, unless i don't understand how to do some things, adding Related really only works from the standalone app, but then i have to use the online webapp to add new articles unless i use the browser plugin (which is the "intended" method, but if i do that it also stores the article body and i only have 100MB free storage)00:51
LjLin the end it all works but just to add three articles and relate them together, i need to keep switching between browser, webapp and app00:51
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Zotero / COVID links Group / Top-Level Items: How we estimated the true death toll of the pandemic ( https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/J3MNXNGX )00:52
nixonix.title https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/codagenix-announces-safety-and-immunogenicity-data-from-phase-1-covid-19-intranasal-vaccine-trial-and-intent-to-progress-to-phase-23-studies-301382120.html  live-attenuated nasal vax, furin site deleted (if it wakes alive for 1/100k, thats good)00:54
Brainstormnixonix: From www.prnewswire.com: Codagenix Announces Safety and Immunogenicity Data from Phase 1 COVID-19 Intranasal Vaccine Trial and Intent to Progress to Phase 2/3 Studies00:54
LjLde-facto, look an intranasal vaccine00:55
nixonix.title https://www.pnas.org/content/118/29/e2102775118  the same one. i think00:57
Brainstormnixonix: From www.pnas.org: Scalable live-attenuated SARS-CoV-2 vaccine candidate demonstrates preclinical safety and efficacy | PNAS00:57
nixonix.title https://www.ft.com/content/1b884913-30cb-4b3e-9a2c-643287188387   https://archive.is/celV001:00
Brainstormnixonix: From www.ft.com: Subscribe to read | Financial Times01:00
nixonix*Covid cases among England’s schoolchildren hit record peak01:00
BrainstormNew from https://covid19.specops.network : Add VIEW-hub vaccine page(s): Courtesy nixonix. There's no way to actually add the "entire vaccine thing" I guess, so I'm linking to the Characteristics page which is the most unique, but mentioning Studies as well → https://is.gd/0juZq201:05
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/DFisman/status/1442247978127958023  when case numbers were very small, its about luck how long it takes until it starts to spread like according to it's R (and even more, if the early strain was less adapted to the host)01:11
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: David Fisman (@DFisman): "When we first started modeling covid in January 2020, it was clear based on an outbreak size of ~ 4000 (based on exports), an R of 2.3, and a plausible serial interval of 5-7 [...]01:11
nixonixwenseleers likes those live-attenuated nasal vaccines, because they can induce better and supposedly more lasting systemic IgG response than not-live vaxes01:17
nixonixi think im good with improving (hopefully) im vaxes, and then oral non-live vaxes on top of them, for reducing the transmission efficiently. those live-attenuated ones prob needs as frequent boosting anyway, because IgA response fades fast01:18
BrainstormUpdates for Guyana: +10 cases (now 30917), +1 deaths (now 755), +3529 tests (now 311955) since 21 hours ago01:30
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): Covid2019: ‘I’ve Seen So Many People Die’: Relentless Stress, Frustration of Caring for Unvaccinated Takes Toll On Local Nurses → https://is.gd/Yiu7Bw02:20
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid has wiped out years of progress on life expectancy, finds study. Pandemic behind biggest fall in life expectancy in western Europe since second world war, say researchers. → https://is.gd/WEv1ml02:31
BrainstormUpdates for Canada: +1243 cases (now 1.6 million), +9 deaths (now 27668) since 21 hours ago — United Kingdom: +24138 cases (now 7.7 million), +65 deaths (now 136318) since 21 hours ago02:32
lastshellit seems India has some ivermectin kit for home use https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/coronavirus-all-adults-in-goa-to-be-given-ivermectin-drug/article34532312.ece / https://www.goa.gov.in/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Home-Isolation-Monitoring-Kits-For-COVID-19-Launched.pdf02:42
lastshellDo we have some trials with Ivermectin ?02:43
specingI see that they've figured out how to de-worm india under the cover of curing covid02:52
LjLlol02:55
LjL"lol" ;(02:55
specingLjL: maybe we could administer covid vaccines under cover of curing headaches02:58
LjLwhen they find out about the lie it'll be a huge headache03:02
lastshellI guess if I works why not ?03:16
LjLwell i think it was a joke but seriously, because lies have always consistently backfired throughout this pandemic03:18
lastshellYeah I know between Ivermectin and Hidroxy who knows what part is true or not03:25
specingthe people that ran the clinical trials do03:26
LjLi wasn't really thinking about those, more about blatant lies like, i always go back to it, the WHO being like "don't use masks, masks are bad"03:27
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla predicts normal life will return within a year and adds we may need annual Covid shots → https://is.gd/VcmrCP03:45
lastshellhttps://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/singapore-reports-1939-covid-19-cases-highest-since-april-last-year-2021-09-26/04:21
lastshellWhy Singapore that is 80% vaccinated is having highest Covid cases ?04:22
LjLi think Delta gives very few fucks about the vaccine in terms of infecting people04:24
LjLalthough their deaths are also rising, which is not good04:24
LjLbut *for now* at least, compare with Italy, which is in a "not too bad steady state" at the moment http://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Italy;Singapore&byPopulation=yes&cumulative=no&smooth=yes04:25
LjLcases skyrocketings, but while deaths are going up, they're not quite skyrocketing04:25
LjLof course deaths are delayed compared to cases, so fingers crossed04:25
lastshellthanks04:25
LjLalso, it appears that the dominant variant in Singapore is now AY.23, not Delta04:26
LjLwhich iiiiiiis... the first time i hear of it04:26
lastshelloh god more variants04:26
LjLi also can't quite figure out what that name corresponds to04:28
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): China_Flu: Leaked Grant Proposal Details High-Risk Coronavirus Research → https://is.gd/HddhOk04:28
LjLi think AY.# variants are variants of the Delta variant itself, but i'm not positive04:28
LjLbut anyway it has been prevalent in Singapore already since August or so https://outbreak.info/location-reports?loc=SGP04:29
LjLso maybe it doesn't explain the current spike. also i'm reading Singapore is transitioning from a "zero covid" strategy to one where they tolerate it04:29
lastshellI think maybe thye openned to soon ?04:30
LjLwhen would they open though?04:31
LjLthey're mostly vaccinated, the alternative at this point seems to be "never"04:31
lastshellyeah a.23 is a sublineage of Detla04:32
lastshell*Delta04:32
lastshellI try to use the outbreak.info for US data but doesn't show variants in the graph04:34
BrainstormNew from r/Science: science: Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla predicts normal life will return within a year and adds we may need annual Covid shots → https://is.gd/hcnplM05:21
BrainstormUpdates for Dominica: +96 cases (now 3293), +2 deaths (now 15) since 2 days ago — Germany: +3830 cases (now 4.2 million) since 18 hours ago05:38
BrainstormNew from COVID tweets: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): The Covid-19 pandemic has resulted in the largest loss of life expectancy since World War II, worst among American menacademic.oup.com/ije/advance-ar… @jm_aburto @UniofOxford @OxfordDemSci @ridhikash07 @melindacmills pic.twitter.com/ckRIDD9G4m → https://is.gd/fk9jhZ05:54
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Covid-19 pandemic cut life expectancy by most since World War Two: Study → https://is.gd/tnwWbG06:27
BrainstormNew from COVID tweets: Eric Feigl-Ding (@DrEricDing): DEVASTATING—life expectancy of 2019 to 2020 plummeted in women (red) & men (light blue). US young men lost the most—ONE FULL YEAR among age 0-59. Sweden🇸🇪 lost more than all its Scandinavian neighbors. And we haven’t added 2021 #DeltaVariant yet! #COVID19 [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/rnh8HZ07:00
BrainstormUpdates for Sarawak, Malaysia: +2943 cases (now 199089) since 23 hours ago — United Kingdom: +33015 cases (now 7.7 million), +63 deaths (now 136348) since 23 hours ago — France: +856 cases (now 7.0 million) since 7 days ago — Lombardy, Italy: +304 cases (now 882424), +10 deaths (now 34022) since 23 hours ago07:30
BrainstormUpdates for India: +26041 cases (now 33.7 million), +116 deaths (now 446929) since 15 hours ago08:32
-Bridgestorm- ⭕ Σεισμός? Earthquake? M6+ estimated tremor, possibly occurred 14 minutes ago (06:17:21 UTC), during daytime, Municipality of Alagni, Heraklion Regional Unit, Region of Crete, Greece (35.15, 25.2), ↓2 km likely felt 310 km away (in Ηράκλειο, Νέα Αλικαρνασσός, Αρκαλοχώρι, Γάζι, Αρχάνες…) by 240600 people — Webcams: https://www.windy.com/webcams/158774212308:33
-Bridgestorm- https://www.windy.com/webcams/1578234050 https://www.windy.com/webcams/1420818867 (www.seismicportal.eu)08:33
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid-19 Surpasses 1918 Flu to Become Deadliest Pandemic in American History → https://is.gd/rUX0g508:35
-Bridgestorm- ⭕ Σεισμός! Earthquake! 6.1 Mww tremor, registered by US, occurred 22 minutes ago (06:17:22 UTC), during daytime, Crete, Greece (35.21, 25.23) ± 5 km, ↓5 km likely felt 290 km away (in Ηράκλειο, Νέα Αλικαρνασσός, Γάζι, Αρχάνες, Αρκαλοχώρι…) by 294500 people — Webcams: https://www.windy.com/webcams/1587742123 https://www.windy.com/webcams/158748477408:39
-Bridgestorm- https://www.windy.com/webcams/1420818867 (service.iris.edu)08:39
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: These health care workers would rather get fired than get vaccinated → https://is.gd/6AxXy608:57
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express (Health): Health: Childhood obesity is a more serious concern than coronavirus, says Dr Chris van Tulleken → https://is.gd/uYUi7S09:07
ZdrytchX.cases melbourne09:25
BrainstormZdrytchX: Sorry, melbourne not found. Either there aren't cases, or it's under a different name.09:25
ZdrytchX.cases victoriaq09:25
BrainstormZdrytchX: Sorry, victoriaq not found. Either there aren't cases, or it's under a different name.09:25
ZdrytchX.cases victoria09:25
BrainstormZdrytchX: Victoria, Australia has had 33967 confirmed cases (0.5% of all people) and 845 deaths (2.5% of cases) as of an hour ago. 69000 tests were done (49.2% positive). +673 cases, +1 deaths since 23 hours ago. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Victoria09:25
BrainstormZdrytchX: If you know of an official or otherwise good site for data about Victoria, with a reasonably short URL, please %tell LjL about it.09:25
ZdrytchX.cases new south whales09:25
BrainstormZdrytchX: Sorry, new south whales not found. Either there aren't cases, or it's under a different name.09:25
ZdrytchX.cases nsw09:25
BrainstormZdrytchX: New Brunswick, Canada has had 3850 confirmed cases (0.5% of all people) and 54 deaths (1.4% of cases) as of an hour ago. 7963 tests were done (48.3% positive). +82 cases, +1 deaths since 23 hours ago. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=New%20Brunswick09:26
BrainstormZdrytchX: If you know of an official or otherwise good site for data about New Brunswick, with a reasonably short URL, please %tell LjL about it.09:26
ZdrytchX.cases newsouthwhales09:26
BrainstormZdrytchX: Sorry, newsouthwhales not found. Either there aren't cases, or it's under a different name.09:26
ZdrytchX.cases australia09:27
BrainstormZdrytchX: Australia has had 98535 confirmed cases (0.4% of all people) and 1240 deaths (1.3% of cases) as of 3 hours ago. 37.2 million tests were done (0.3% positive). 15.9 million were vaccinated (62.0%). +1130 cases since 23 hours ago. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Australia09:27
BrainstormZdrytchX: If you know of an official or otherwise good site for data about Australia, with a reasonably short URL, please %tell LjL about it.09:27
BrainstormUpdates for Germany: +5208 cases (now 4.2 million) since 21 hours ago — Hungary: +42 cases (now 820120), +4 deaths (now 30155), +35392 tests (now 6.9 million) since 2 days ago09:35
BrainstormUpdates for Czechia: +256 cases (now 1.7 million), +1 deaths (now 30454), +2373 vaccines (now 6.1 million), +34262 tests (now 37.9 million) since a day ago09:59
BrainstormNew from COVID tweets: Prof Francois Balloux (@BallouxFrancois): What makes the situation even more depressing is that health inequities have worsened during the pandemic, and hardly anyone in a position of authority seems willing to engage with their root causes.2/ → https://is.gd/lOvAoT10:00
BrainstormNew from COVID tweets: Tom Wenseleers (@TWenseleers): All the while with a government stringency index that for the larger part of the pandemic was less severe for Australia than for the US. Long-term economic impacts to be seen. (ourworldindata.org/explorers/coro…) pic.twitter.com/wJ7nHgn32Y → https://is.gd/i1Hx3B10:43
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Opinion: I fear Covid-19 is pushing young physicians out of medicine: I see the same trauma and battle fatigue in young physicians caring for Covid-19 patients as I saw in service members during my deployment in Iraq. → https://is.gd/Bv548N10:54
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express (Health): Fashion: Milan Fashion Week: Missoni turns creative page; Liberatore mixes real, virtual → https://is.gd/nYeyE611:04
BrainstormUpdates for Russia: +22236 cases (now 7.4 million), +779 deaths (now 204679), +400000 tests (now 190.2 million) since a day ago — Poland: +421 cases (now 2.9 million), +21347 tests (now 20.8 million) since 23 hours ago11:39
BrainstormNew from EMA: What's new: Orphan: Orphan designation: Single-chain urokinase plasminogen activator, Treatment of pleural empyema, 16/12/2014, Positive → https://is.gd/gMxkGJ11:58
BrainstormUpdates for Germany: +4881 cases (now 4.2 million) since 23 hours ago12:41
darsieAre people who got covid twice counted twice?12:56
skepthose lockdown days never gonna back13:00
BrainstormNew from Pfizer: Anonymous: Pfizer Starts Global Phase 2/3 EPIC-PEP Study of Novel COVID-19 Oral Antiviral Candidate for Post-Exposure Prophylaxis in Adults → https://is.gd/DzgKDA13:03
dTalparse error13:03
BrainstormNew from r/Science: science: The COVID-19 pandemic triggered life expectancy losses not seen since World War II in Western Europe and exceeded those observed around the dissolution of the Eastern Bloc in central and Eastern European countries, according to research published today → https://is.gd/5bqOHM13:14
skepwhat!13:15
de-facto.title https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/covid-19-is-now-the-deadliest-pandemic-in-us-history13:16
Brainstormde-facto: From www.nationalgeographic.com: COVID-19 surpasses 1918 flu as deadliest pandemic in U.S. history13:16
de-facto.title https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-09-27-covid-19-has-caused-biggest-decrease-life-expectancy-world-war-ii13:18
Brainstormde-facto: From www.ox.ac.uk: COVID-19 has caused the biggest decrease in life expectancy since World War II | University of Oxford13:18
skepwhat to say about recent covid attack in June when oxygen shortage happned13:26
skepyou can learn something in boring days but not in chaotic days13:27
BrainstormUpdates for Switzerland: +43 deaths (now 11053) since a day ago13:31
skepwell my highly populated country doing well in vaccinaction13:31
skepno one gives update about europe13:33
skepin India13:33
skepwe think that it is now over there13:33
skeplol it is hazardous there ✓13:33
BrainstormNew from The Atlantic: Biden’s Vaccine Mandate Has a Giant Loophole: President Joe Biden’s new vaccine mandate for large businesses is a strange one, in that it does not actually make vaccines mandatory for the roughly 80 million Americans it’s aimed at. Tucked plainly into the rule is a singular and obvious opt-out: Unlike federal employees and [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/Ku45mE13:35
de-factohttp://offloop.net/covid19/?default=EU;Europe;US;India;United%20Kingdom;Russia&cumulative=no&smooth=yes13:38
de-factonot really over unfortunately13:38
de-factoUSA even got daily 2000 deaths by COVID13:39
de-factowhen the winter will come the infections per generation (each 4 days) may increase as much as 40% compared to summer13:40
de-factogiven all other conditions would be comparable13:41
de-factoif more vaccinations are done and more containment is established it may counter balance that13:41
skepreally I can't forget that day when in what's group we see the video of wuhan13:44
skepand also tear of Italian President13:45
skeppeople should be carefull now coz still the virus make you dance on the top of eiffle tower13:48
de-factoits going to continue as long as a non-zero covid strategy is tolerated. its over once the pathogen is removed and since that is not going to happen we have to accept that we need to learn to live with it13:49
skepthank god I am here I thrown all the mask to the garbage bag13:49
de-factohumanity simple is not fit for dealing with a global biosecurity crisis13:50
de-factomaybe in next century we will have evolved to have such capabilities13:50
skepafter getting touch with west people13:56
dTalI'm in a weird limbo now where I'm still trying real hard not to get covid and making sacrifices and not living "normally", but I'll also do things that I would have considered unacceptably risky before13:56
skepi have seen those things which are common in illitrate Indians13:56
skepeven illitrate is far better13:57
skepdunno why yes is no these days and no is yes13:57
de-factoi dont understand why we would not put all efforts into establishing a testing infrastructure for mandatory free biweekly pcr test for everyone13:59
de-factoinstead they remove free tests and financial support for quarantine14:00
de-factoquestion: why would i pay for a test that could sent me into two weeks of unpaid quarantine that i probably would have to balance with holidays?14:01
de-factonext question: if case numbers go down, how would we separate contributions coming from people not going for a test from real decline in incidence?14:02
de-factonext next question: if vaccinated are not tested at all, how could it make sense to announce separate incidence for vaccinated and non-vaccinated?14:03
de-factowe would not even know real epidemic dynamics anymore, not to start talking about monitoring breakthrough infections et al14:04
de-factoi really hope next government will not tolerate such nonsensical strategies anymore14:04
de-factoanyhow need to continue work, till later14:05
BrainstormUpdates for Gibraltar: +3 cases (now 5517), +470 tests (now 358112) since a day ago14:08
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): COVID19: A sprayable Acid-Oxidizing solution containing hypochlorous acid (AOS2020) efficiently and safely inactivates SARS-Cov-2: a new potential solution for upper respiratory tract hygiene - European Archives of Oto-Rhino-Laryngology → https://is.gd/xCYDjC14:29
BrainstormUpdates for Nepal: +975 cases (now 792367), +7 deaths (now 11103) since a day ago — Brunei: +1 deaths (now 38), +4322 tests (now 340308) since a day ago14:33
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): CoronavirusUK: UK fully vaccinates more than two-thirds of entire population → https://is.gd/jQg32Q15:03
aradeshsaw an article that said first time since outbreak began that UK's hospitalisations are consistently declining whilst not in lockdown :)15:06
aradeshgood news15:06
BrainstormUpdates for Denmark: +4 deaths (now 2646), +43946 tests (now 83.4 million) since 12 hours ago15:10
de-facto.title https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare15:10
Brainstormde-facto: From coronavirus.data.gov.uk: error parsing title ('NoneType' object has no attribute 'string')15:10
de-facto"healthcare in UK: Patients admitted to hospital"15:11
de-factosince early Sept (1st or 2nd week) COVID hospitalizations seem to decline in UK15:12
BrainstormNew from Contagion Live: Complete Blinded Phase of mRNA-1273 COVID-19 Vaccine Trial Unveiled: Extended findings from blinded mRNA-1273 vaccine pivotal trial include efficacy across subgroups, including elderly and with coexisting conditions. → https://is.gd/74sexA15:14
BrainstormNew from COVID tweets: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Our covid times :-) pic.twitter.com/hCdfC5s3oe → https://is.gd/JsWuc915:25
BrainstormUpdates for San Marino: +2 cases (now 5425), +877 tests (now 79097) since 3 days ago16:00
BrainstormNew from COVID tweets: Prof. Shane Crotty (@profshanecrotty): mRNA Vaccine won the Lasker Award! Congrats to @WeissmanLab and @kkariko ! And this is an outstanding short article by Dr. Lynda Stewart summarizing their amazing path to developing this new vaccine technology. nejm.org/doi/full/10.10… → https://is.gd/FTk70616:32
BrainstormUpdates for Switzerland: +2064 cases (now 835448) since 3 hours ago16:37
BrainstormNew from COVID tweets: Prof. Shane Crotty (@profshanecrotty): Brilliant quote about vaccines:“Nobody ever thanks you for saving them from the disease they didn’t know they were going to get.” → https://is.gd/wkjDrs16:44
BrainstormUpdates for Bangladesh: +1212 cases (now 1.6 million), +25 deaths (now 27439) since 23 hours ago — Chile: +614 cases (now 1.7 million), +5 deaths (now 37445), +58300 tests (now 21.7 million) since a day ago17:02
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Pfizer begins study of oral drug for prevention of COVID-19 → https://is.gd/MaMdC017:18
BrainstormNew from COVID tweets: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "To believe that the vaccinated elderly are perfectly safe is to raise uncomfortable questions about the way we have processed risk by universalizing it" pic.twitter.com/dTO4gHHc0U → https://is.gd/sUAHj017:29
hyrcanushttps://i0.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2021/09/image-4-3.jpg?w=768&ssl=1  GOLD LMAO17:30
dTaloh you're an antivaxer17:36
dTalthey aren't welcome here17:37
specingantivaxers are welcome if they can provide scientific evidence against vaccines. So far they've not delivered17:37
dTalI don't know of anywhere that's "forcing" people to get vaccinated anyway17:40
specingdTal: my country17:42
specingIt's not mandatory vaccination, but you can't do much without being vaccinated or tested every 2 days (which is expensive)17:43
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Pfizer begins study of oral drug for prevention of Covid-19 → https://is.gd/siVOac17:51
hyrcanus118:03
hyrcanus218:03
lastshellhyrcanus besided qAnon and FB what other places you do research ?18:03
hyrcanus318:03
hyrcanus418:03
spybertnot another one of those :-(18:03
lastshellsadly they don't want to argue just troll18:04
BrainstormUpdates for United Kingdom: +36464 cases (now 7.7 million), +2963946 tests (now 300.2 million) since 22 hours ago18:04
LjL%title https://twitter.com/john_actuary/status/144242238917902745618:13
BrainstormLjL: From twitter.com: John Roberts (@john_actuary): "An interesting release by ONS today on the characteristics of people testing positive recently. One noteworthy finding is that those who don't wear masks are around 50% [...]18:13
lastshellLjL remember we talked about Singapore https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/27/singapore-is-seeing-record-covid-cases-that-may-not-be-a-bad-thing.html18:14
BrainstormNew from COVID tweets: Prof. Shane Crotty (@profshanecrotty): Congrats to @EOSaphire, Dr. Kate Hastie, and their whole LJI team for their impressive accomplishment mapping antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 Spike! bloomberg.com/news/articles/…science.org/doi/10.1126/sc… → https://is.gd/uJ00Op18:14
LjLlastshell, "For these people, infection will not have any short-term or long-term consequence to their health" - if the UK report where long COVID is only reduced by 40% or 60% or so by the vaccine, then that's not really true18:18
LjLalso the deaths are rising, and i'd wait at least the canonical two weeks to see how they behave compared to cases before saying it's not a problem18:18
lastshellyeah do we know if Singapore is doing booster ?18:19
LjLstill, if they are convinced 98% of the positives had no symptoms... but then again how are the deaths already rising that much?18:19
lastshellthats the concern18:19
LjLi hope the remaining 2% is not all dying :P18:19
lastshelllmao almost spit out my coffe18:19
LjLif you mean third dose i don't think they're doing it yet, they announced in early september they'll be doing it for older people, so probably no one yet18:20
LjL> Hospital beds are filling up because of the country’s “very cautious” approach, and not because that many people need acute medical care, Teo said.18:20
LjLokay. this above sounds like bullshit18:21
lastshellscary situation18:23
BrainstormUpdates for Zambia: +10 cases (now 208867), +1 deaths (now 3647), +4154 tests (now 2.4 million) since a day ago18:29
BrainstormNew from COVID tweets: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): We still don't know the mechanism for the rare cases of vaccine-induced myocarditis. John Campbells's point of aspirating the syringe, to be sure the needle is not in a vein, and the data he provides here, shouldn't be dismissed youtube.com/watch?v=nBaIRm… → https://is.gd/YxfACX18:36
LjLTopol cites Campbell!18:41
LjLthe revenge of the boring18:41
LjLde-facto, maybe you have that statement on a German gov website where it says "why" aspiration is not done, so we can show Topol/Campbell why entire governments are dismissing it?18:42
LjL(even if it's only a former government)18:43
BrainstormNew from COVID tweets: gianluca c 🏴‍☠️🇻🇪 #TeamFauci #MaskUp #no papers (@gianlucac1): The more i look at Sarscov2 epidemic, the more i think it behaves like any resp virusIt passes through the percolation threshold in kids which are asymptomatic, or pauci like any other seasonal resp virusThen it goes up in age cohortsYou dont [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/el6ZkU18:50
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_ITALIA: I No Green Pass stanno bloccando le Autostrade in Italia → https://is.gd/ZAHuz419:24
BrainstormNew from COVID tweets: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): The difference in pattern of the UK and EUPerhaps, in part, related to first mover disadvantage of being months earlier in vaccination campaign and susceptibility to waning impact pic.twitter.com/NFoD1Ujkvf → https://is.gd/Fr4thu19:57
MerlinMp[m]<specing> "antivaxers are welcome if they..." <- Correct me if Im wrong but there are much more research now around vax/non-vax than related to unvax people recovered from covid?20:05
BrainstormUpdates for Italy: +1773 cases (now 4.7 million), +45 deaths (now 130742) since a day ago20:09
specingMerlinMp[m]: what?20:18
BrainstormNew from COVID tweets: Prof Francois Balloux (@BallouxFrancois): Based on their current trajectory, the worldwide number of reported Covid19 deaths over the coming week should be the lowest since the beginning of the year. Daily Covid19 deaths are still awfully high, but the situation is currently improving globally. → https://is.gd/K6Qsos20:19
MerlinMp[m]Namely you cannot provide "scientific evidence" if theres no research about some topics20:23
specingThere is research. The vaccine clinical trials themselves are evidence that vaccines work. There have also been trials for chloroquine, ivermectin and vitamin D20:25
BrainstormNew from WebMD: Global COVID Vaccination Plans Need Urgency, Activists Say: While Americans debate who should receive boosters of a COVID-19 vaccine and when, many nations have barely begun to vaccinate their citizens, an inequity that is not just a humanitarian crisis, but also likely to extend the pandemic → https://is.gd/sZnyw420:30
* Pawel[m]1 uploaded an image: (116KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/oEOGfjYuamIdzuqoLvyaEgtH/IMG_20210927_203843.jpg >20:41
MerlinMp[m]<specing> "There is research. The vaccine..." <- Most vax clinical trials exclude recovered, and if included only antibodies are measured which is a poorly evidence20:50
TurboTechGood afternoon gang20:56
TurboTechHope all are doing well.20:56
nixonix.title https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336  too bad they too did half-assed job, like almost everybody, not adjusting for missing seasonal infections and heatwaves21:09
Brainstormnixonix: From elifesciences.org: Tracking excess mortality across countries during the COVID-19 pandemic with the World Mortality Dataset | eLife21:09
nixonixthey did adjust for trend over the last few years, like due to immgracy changing age-structure. so they got 1/3 of the most important adjustments. not totally terrible, but weak21:10
nixonixit could roughly be used to compare countries with high mortality21:11
LjLPawel[m]1, the same goes for you as for hyrcanus earlier, this room is not about posting memes or such things. if you have a coherent argument to make, make it21:13
lastshellhttps://www.dawn.com/news/164878021:15
nixonixsee the comments in the section "Decision letter"21:17
LjLublx, did you see, Campbell has been VINDICATED21:18
LjL(and de-facto too)21:19
LjL%title https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/144252560742686720021:19
BrainstormLjL: From twitter.com: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "We still don't know the mechanism for the rare cases of vaccine-induced myocarditis. John Campbells's point of aspirating the syringe, to be sure the needle is not in a vein, [...]21:19
lastshellI been watching JC since the begining of the pandemic21:20
lastshellhis theory could be right21:21
nixonixis it in text form somewhere?21:21
nixonixwhat is his theory anyway?21:22
Pawel[m]1<LjL> "Pawel, the same goes for you..." <- Oh ok. Well. It's a good argument of you remove the background and make it non-meme. But sure I understand.21:22
Pawel[m]1Ok so let me provide a good coherent resource for everybody. A goldmine of scientific studies in the subject...21:22
Pawel[m]1This is a must read and must share, far and wide:21:22
Pawel[m]1https://swprs.org/facts-about-covid-19/21:22
ublxnixonix: apparently that injecting vaccine into bloodstream might be responsible for myocarditis21:22
LjLthere goes my plan of rebooting into windows to do stuff21:23
nixonixyeayeah, thats nothing new. i mean mechanism he suggests?21:23
LjLnixonix, what ublx said, but to be fair i didn't watch the video at all, it's just what i expect because we've discussed it a bunch of times before (also wrt AZ thrombosis)21:23
nixonixwe have had here at least 3 ideas for mechanisms. the last one was that immunocomplex with ace221:23
LjLi know it's nothing new, i just find it somewhat noteworthy that Topol quotes a Campbell video21:24
lastshelloh LjL I think you were cool, but using windows .. mmm21:24
LjLlastshell, i have a new USB stick that gives somewhat poor speed readings under Linux and i want to see if i replicate them with Windows tools21:25
lastshellusb3 and achi drivers something are wonky21:25
lastshellok21:25
nixonixdd keeps trashing my usb sticks. i guess its overheating. my slowing attempts didnt work, it just writes it from the buffer at once i guess21:28
nixonixusing old usb2 works, i think i should use just them, but they are so slow21:28
LjLnixonix, these Sandisk do seem to overheat a lot. and i'm so smart i bought another after realizing the first one was like that21:28
LjL(i needed a USB-C one to begin with, because the main reason for buying it was to backup my failing phone, but i was dumb and bought a USB-A one instead and then realized my adaptor doesn't do the trick, so i kept the USB-A one for another use, and then bought a C+A one... which seems flimsy, aside from being slow and overheating... whatever)21:29
nixonixwhat was usb-a again21:30
nixonixthe normal..21:31
nixonixoh yeah, usb-b was that in printers etc21:32
nixonixmini-usb was ok, never broke one i think21:32
TurboTechHi guys21:37
lastshellHi TurboTech21:39
TurboTechReady for you day in Clinical Lab?21:39
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV: Vanderbilt University Medical Center Covid-19 Hospitalizations 7 days ending 9/18/21 - lists vaccinated, partially vaccinated and fully vaccinated → https://is.gd/x1HVcZ21:40
nixonixwe are ready21:41
TurboTechA few years ago I read a study regarding a single red blood cell indice as being an interesting predictor of all cause mortality.21:42
TurboTechIt is known as red cell distribution with.  Basically the variance of how different our redblood cells sizes are.21:43
TurboTechIn healthy people there is very little variance in Red sell size.21:43
TurboTechso most of the cells are roughly the same size21:43
TurboTech.title https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29038615/21:44
BrainstormTurboTech: From pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov: Red Blood Cell Distribution Width: A Novel Predictive Indicator for Cardiovascular and Cerebrovascular Diseases - PubMed21:44
TurboTechThis weekend I was thinking if it might tell us anything regarding Covid Infection.21:45
TurboTechI was almost floored when I read this.21:45
TurboTech.title https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jmv.2679721:45
BrainstormTurboTech: From onlinelibrary.wiley.com: Association between red blood cell distribution width and mortality and severity among patients with COVID‐19: A systematic review and meta‐analysis - Lee - 2021 - Journal of Medical Virology - Wiley [...]21:46
Pawel[m]1I have some genuine questions: What are the (unwritten) goals of this group?21:47
Pawel[m]1Is it predominantly pro vax , anti or a mixed bag?21:47
Pawel[m]1Are you questioning the lies/manipulation/propaganda, conflicts of interests here or maybe you don't take a notice of any of that?21:47
nixonixsorry the interruption turbo, im interested and lets continue about that biomarker, but21:48
TurboTechI am not for or against Vaccines.  I am a clinical laboratorian who analyzes blood and body fluids.21:48
nixonixwhat lies Pawel[m]1 do you mean?21:48
LjL-Matrixnixonix: in theory miniUSB is rated for fewer cycles than microUSB which in turn is fewer than USB-C. But I don't think I ever broke one either. With microUSB it's easier to "break" the cable (especially the two small springs) and that's by design since with miniUSB the springs are in the port and it's easier to replace the cable than the port. Anyway yeah, USB-C is meant to replace both A and B, and to remove the distinction, at least21:49
LjL-Matrixcable-wise, between host and peripheral21:49
Pawel[m]1Fauci's lies as an example. Flip flopping and covering potential leak from WIV.... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/10c0fb3ef9046761536a19560c66ccbbb0a19ca9)21:55
Pawel[m]1<nixonix> "what lies Pawel do you mean?" <- Fauci's lies as an example. Flip flopping and covering potential leak from WIV.... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/e2179c49ea7914a6974d944672de7be7e0f6f86d)21:55
Pawel[m]1* .21:55
nixonixwhile im not always here, i dont remember anyone saying here that fauci didnt lie or something (or not being 100% open about financing ecohealth and or g-o-f research plans with chinese)21:57
nixonixbut let me say, if fauci lied on something or wasnt 100% open, its bad21:58
nixonixokay, next lie?21:58
BrainstormUpdates for Spain: +5039 cases (now 5.0 million), +69 deaths (now 86298) since 3 days ago — Canada: +709 cases (now 1.6 million) since 19 hours ago22:01
Pawel[m]1I was more asking whether ppl here are interested in shining some light on that kind of stuff here/are interested in discussing those lies/manipulation, not just defending any lies if they are brought up (meaning ignoring the elephant in the room for as long as possible) 😝22:01
nixonixive posted links about those recent leaks on ecohealth etc. not much discussion, but i guess some people read them. lemme repaste some...22:02
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/__philipn__/status/143509615021058048122:04
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Philip Neustrom (@__philipn__): "Wuhan University Center for Animal Experiment, BSL3 mentioned where hACE2 mice experiments said performed. Surgical masks (not covering nose, even), potentially [...]22:04
nixonixare there any other types of lies on your list? exp ecohealth, daszak, WIW etc related?22:05
Pawel[m]1LjL @LjL:libera.chat can I post a video? not sure whether you can call it a lie... I would guess so. recently there was a great Project Veritas movie exposing doctors talking between themselves, who are federal employees (at HHS), admitting that no reports are submitted when a patient has suffered an injury. One of the doctors at HHS was coerced into taking the vaccine and died soon after btw. No reports submitted anywhere, if i understood22:08
Pawel[m]1correctly.22:08
Pawel[m]1Saying we know vaccines are safe when the vaccine injury reporting system does not work properly, and we mainly rely on those as the covid vaccine safety studies are more of a joke (from the little that i know) is a kind of a false statement.22:10
Pawel[m]1* a joke , to put it bluntly (from the22:10
nixonixplease, text links from source with some reliability. i dont bother to watch videos, not sure if reading if it just somebody claiming something, without any evidence. maybe, if its somebody with ok reputation22:11
nixonixmaybe ljl watches and tells me what was in it, then im happy to comment whatever it was (:22:12
Pawel[m]1Saying we "have a free choice"22:12
Pawel[m]1 to take the vaccine" while basic human rights area being taken away if you don't take it and you are constantly being coerced into taking it without an informed consent / any warnings about potential side effects / properly working vaccine injury reporting system . Is a lie to me.22:12
imaginarythese are gonna keep getting more fringe aren't they22:13
nixonixso the claim is, somebody claims vaccine safety studies are a joke. but no evidence other than the claim? come on...22:13
nixonixbut yeah i agree usa's reporting systems are not perfect, and they prob dont catch all the medium severity adverse effects. and i think the same with uk, when you compare non-severe TTS cases induced by AZ to australia, who for some reason finds more them22:18
nixonixbut some countries are very meticulous to find them, eg australia, norway, denmark, prob germany... so i think they are pretty much known now, with these approved vaccines22:19
Pawel[m]1<nixonix> "so the claim is, somebody claims..." <- Relax. Will send good resources I can find, but I will probably be sending it as I go along rather than all of it right now.. i got a chronic fatigue and a bit disorganised and haven't been saving all of the best resources in any organised manner, plus been traveling last few months without my laptop (I planning to organise myself better). But if you are not a vax fanatic, can talk logic22:21
Pawel[m]1and reason, and we can have a non-retarded discussion here, then I will be happy to provide some interesting stuff to you guys here :)22:21
nixonixim always interested in reliable evidence. doesnt need to be peer reviewed yet, preprints are ok too22:22
Pawel[m]1Not perfect? From what I know it's closer to tragic.. :p22:23
BrainstormNew from COVID tweets: Paul Bieniasz (@PaulBieniasz): @celinegounder I'm a PRO-VACCINE virologist who's has been studying SARS-CoV-2 variants, antibodies and antibody escape since the beginningI got my 1st and 2nd doses of Pfizer 3/2021I will be getting a boosterBecause past effects on hospitalization and death aren't the only considerations → https://is.gd/nOXVZv22:23
Pawel[m]1And when it comes to safety of something being injected into billions of people you need to assume it's unsafe (I'm talking about the vaccine reporting system here being unsafe, not the vaccines itself) until proven otherwise, not the other way around.22:25
Pawel[m]1You could not apply that logic to flying planes. Why would you apply it to human lives/health.22:25
nixonixno medicine of vaccine is 100% safe. if the requirement is that, no medicine or vaccine will ever be approved22:26
Pawel[m]1Well.. Something along those lines. If there is any doubt about robustness of the system, and reports being missed, then it's not a safe system, imo.22:26
Pawel[m]1I was talking about the reporting system not the vaccine.22:27
Pawel[m]1nixonix: But yes I agree.22:27
de-factoultimately its the attitude towards working together with the intention to do the best possible to solve this problem22:27
nixonixthese vaccines had similar size trials than previous vaccines, only thing that was different, was reduced safety period time from the last dose, from 6 months to 2 months (more in practice), so there was a bit higher risk, but lots of people were dying, so it was the right call22:28
Pawel[m]1Here is an interesting lie...22:28
Pawel[m]1The New York Times Corrects Claim About Ivermectin22:28
Pawel[m]1https://resistthemainstream.org/nyt-finally-corrects-claim-about-ivermectin/?utm_source=telegram22:28
de-factothat means looking honestly and openly at all aspects of it, find solutions to each problems in favor of the majorities and make the solutions available to people22:28
de-factolies are interesting, but imho dont really interest me as i cant see how they lead to solving the problems associated22:29
de-factoinstead i would be interested in solutions when problems have been found22:30
nixonixbut after that, theres been safety data from actual use in hundreds of millions people, and the worst adverse effects have been those TTS/CVST with az. yeah, u.s. reporting system, like in many other countries, isnt what it could be. the same with federal medical records in usa, like for tracking breakthrough cases, reinfections and stuff22:31
nixonix.title https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/how-dr-arwady-responds-to-those-worried-about-vaccines-long-term-side-effects/2520299/22:31
Brainstormnixonix: From www.nbcchicago.com: How Dr. Arwady Responds to Those Worried About Long-Term Side Effects With Vaccines – NBC Chicago22:31
de-factowhat i mean is it may be interesting from a political standpoint to discuss about public relations etc, but the real difference will emerge from solving the underlying associated problem in an open and transparent way22:32
nixonix.title https://twitter.com/GidMK/status/1412635807702142982  about ivermectin, this is good read22:32
Brainstormnixonix: From twitter.com: Health Nerd (@GidMK): "Another day, another systematic review and meta-analysis of the same ivermectin research published This one is positive. I don't think it should be 1/n" | nitter22:32
Pawel[m]1<de-facto> "lies are interesting, but imho..." <- Bro.. you cant be serious :p... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/1154869bf9a19a368e44f9038e9915154e62df94)22:35
Pawel[m]1* Bro.. you cant be serious :p... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/78e6247df281d03b30ee8f63ff246d4f64b6b2e6)22:35
Pawel[m]1How can you solve hunger if you have a bug in the fields eating your crops lol.. sorry, im trying to explain it best way possible.22:36
de-factoyes of course we need proper data that is derived in a transparent and empirical way for basing our statements unto, e.g. properly made double blinded studies or observational studies with public full disclosed data etc22:37
de-factoper default i dont trust any reputation of anybody, i dont care about names, i care about what they say and if it is disclosed in a complete way that transparently allows for independent verification etc22:38
Pawel[m]1* Bro.. you cant be serious :p... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/2261d03252267c825f11dde3b8a1c9e7b190b071)22:38
Pawel[m]1Great we agree on that one.22:39
de-factoif i hear a claim, i want to see the data and how it was collected etc22:40
de-factothen i want to see if similar results can be concluded from similar collections of data that was collected independently from someone else22:41
de-factofor example if a side effect reporting system for vaccines of one country reports some deviation from expectation background values i want to see if similar signals could be seen in independently collected data from other countries22:42
de-factoif so, if its possible to restrict effects on certain subgroups of population etc22:42
de-factoi dont care at all if a statement comes from someone named Fauci or Lauterbach or whomever, i care about what the claim says and on based on what kind of data it was based onto22:43
de-factobecause than a discussion can be aimed at finding a problem and associated solution if its based on the data rather than the messenger of the claim22:44
dTallet me offer a counterpoint and say that I do very much care who a claim comes from because I have limited time and energy and some people are known bad actors22:45
BrainstormNew from NPR: Dozens Of Massachusetts State Police Have Resigned Over A Vaccine Mandate, Union Says: Under the governor's executive order, all executive department employees are required to show proof of vaccination by Oct. 17. Up to 20% of employees are not vaccinated. → https://is.gd/BkVdh722:45
Pawel[m]1Do people here know how conflict of interest ls work ? Are there scientific papers proving that conflicts of interests screw things up, usually 😅 or is that self evident?22:45
Pawel[m]1Dig this, it's a letter I got from ICAN foundation, and had to paste it into a note to make it shareable.22:45
Pawel[m]1Just one piece of much bigger puzzle (something to keep in mind basically). To me personally a major red flag but sure.. some ppl may be sure of ever-good intentions of people working for the governments who often are in bed with big corporations (sorry to be sarcastic, but not sure how else to put it). But when it comes to lives of everyone on the planet, we ought to be skeptical and question everyone and their motives and actions, imo.22:45
Pawel[m]1https://www.evernote.com/shard/s436/sh/05ac86a2-8236-4871-b1a0-21a7b6f412b7/cb49622d0e597535d3a064947f7de58f22:45
de-factoif the claim is substantial it should not matter who tells it, it should matter if its a real thing and if it can be restricted to a certain subgroup and possibly even solved by understanding it better by further investigation etc22:45
dTalde-facto, this is getting to be an offtopic sidetrack but claims - even facts - do not stand alone because it is possible to "lie with the truth". I can render your conception of the world less accurate by selectively directing your attention in certain directions.22:48
Pawel[m]1dTal: As long as you don't make this an excuse not to confront with potentially good scientific arguement.22:48
Pawel[m]1I have seen this happening way to often.22:48
dTalSo I think it's a better policy to ignore anyone with a history of making politically motivated claims, or otherwise clearly acting in bad faith, regardless of the superficial merit of any individual thing they say.22:49
dTalThat's why we ban trolls on IRC.22:49
de-factodTal, well yeah hence the importance for an open and transparent empirical approach to make claims independently verifiable22:49
Pawel[m]1dTal: I hear where up coming from. Sure. The only observation i have its that character assassination happens way to often nowadays.. in all areas of life/politics/science.22:50
Pawel[m]1* I hear where you coming from. Sure. The only observation i have its that character assassination happens way to often nowadays.. in all areas of life/politics/science.22:50
Pawel[m]1* I hear where you coming from. Sure. The only observation i have is that character assassination happens way to often nowadays.. in all areas of life/politics/science.22:50
Pawel[m]1So I guess you can't be too easily dismissive.22:50
de-factoediting a message replicates the whole thing on irc side22:50
nixonixICAN foundation? which one? International Campaign to Abolish Nuclear Weapons?22:51
Pawel[m]1The cancel culture is wild today.22:51
Pawel[m]1de-facto: Oh ok thanks for letting me know lol.. sorry.22:51
meritI thought I was in here from matrix22:51
meritdang nick pings22:51
Pawel[m]1nixonix: Informed Consent Action Network..22:52
Pawel[m]1https://www.icandecide.org/22:52
Pawel[m]1I recommend reading their documents. They do a lot of interesting legal work.. but they of course are highly demonised :)22:52
nixonixwiki says "Informed Consent Action Network, a US antivaccine group"22:53
Pawel[m]1nixonix: Exactly. Wikipedia is a leftist propaganda tool..22:53
nixonixanyways, lots of claims, but where are the evidence behind them?22:54
Pawel[m]1Since you like evidence:22:54
Pawel[m]1https://swprs.org/wikipedia-disinformation-operation/22:54
nixonixabout vaccine claims22:54
ublxisn't swprs a rightist propaganda tool?22:54
ublx"... will probably be sending it as I go along rather ..."22:55
de-factoimho a lot of the problems we currently have emerge from trying to politicize originally scientific approaches, a trend that if it can be reversed would solve quite some of the problems we have22:55
ublx^ this doesn't really work for me. how about you do some work and develop a well researched and substantiated thesis instead of waterboarding us with this drip feed22:55
nixonixyou wrote above about conflicts of intereste in research papers. dependencies are listed in them. how about antivaxer videos, do they do the same?22:55
nixonixinterestS22:56
Pawel[m]1<ublx> "isn't swprs a rightist propagand..." <- No. It's fairly objective to me.23:01
Pawel[m]1<ublx> ""... will probably be sending it..." <- What's your problem with that?23:01
nixonixis ICAN or is it not US anti-vaccine group?23:01
Pawel[m]1I explained why. I will be happy to provide all interesting resources once I locate them..23:01
imaginarybecause just saying "X claim is true, i'll provide sources later" doesn't really lead to any discussion23:02
Pawel[m]1nixonix: Anti vaccine is a label to shame them..23:02
Pawel[m]1They are pro choice and pro proper safety studies.23:02
imaginaryespecially if X is a p fringe claim23:02
nixonixpawel, link me one of those studies23:03
Pawel[m]1imaginary: Man... I came here to ask you a question, whether you look into any of the lies. My intention wasn't to spend my todays evening with you and englighten you. I will do so when I see fit.23:03
Pawel[m]1When I find the fucking resources. So please :)23:03
nixonixsafety, or something about vaccines, some study that you think is reliable, and supports your claims23:03
Pawel[m]1Sure I will link you all once I find out.. are you all gonna fucking run away if I don't send it immediately ?23:04
Pawel[m]1* Once i find it*23:04
nixonixyou remember the title?23:04
de-factothats what i mean, lets discuss based on data, otherwise it did not happen23:05
nixonixyeah, otherwise its just emphatic words23:05
imaginaryPawel[m]1: well, the answer to your question was basically, sure, we can discuss anything that's backed up by evidence23:06
imaginaryyou kept bringing up stuff which is why everyone is now asking for sources23:06
imaginaryunsure where you want it all to go from here23:07
nixonixway too many words already, and not single links on studies. maybe i have adhd, idk23:07
imaginarynixonix: nah, same feeling here23:07
BrainstormNew from CIDRAP: US COVID-19 cases drop for first time in 3 months: Stephanie Soucheray | News Reporter | CIDRAP News Sep 27, 2021 In the past week, new daily COVID-19 cases fell 20%, deaths dropped 0.8%, and hospitalizations fell 8.9%. → https://is.gd/zWyN7x23:07
lastshellSure and the earth is flat23:09
Pawel[m]1lastshell: Get lost with stupid aoundbites.23:10
lastshellI think you are one that is lost, try to back up with scientific papers please23:10
Pawel[m]11) You asked me a question so I provided a quick list. My intention wasn't to sit here and dig out the resources for you.. these are my opinions and you can have different but please cut the shit with jumping on me that I'm saying baseless stuff. I said I WILL BE PROVIDING RESOURCES FROM TODAY ON, since you guys are interested in hearing about it.23:10
Pawel[m]1Is that clear?23:10
Pawel[m]12) i never said today that vaccines are unsafe (i believe they are not safe, but I NEVER SAID IT).23:10
Pawel[m]1I was saying that if we are to recommend something everyone in the planet we need robust studies and robust safety monitoring systems in place.23:10
LjLOi23:11
lastshellvaccines are safe according to medical trials23:11
lastshellnot safe according to your hunch ?23:11
LjLPawel[m]1: at minimum, tone down the... uh, the tone23:11
Pawel[m]1LjL: So tell them to stop jumping on me.23:12
Pawel[m]1Especially with soundbites.23:12
LjLEveryone: don't jump on Pawel[m]123:12
Pawel[m]1Thank you 😃23:12
LjLPawel[m]1: stop saying "fucking" every three words and attacking people23:12
Pawel[m]1I need to switch to my laptop..23:13
Pawel[m]1<lastshell> "vaccines are safe according to..." <- Let me follow up on that with you.23:17
Pawel[m]1Show me a study of long term effects, 2 years down the line or 5 years down the line of taking a number of covid vaccines, e.g. one per year or two per year (as it seems they are trying to make it now).23:17
Pawel[m]1Or even a few year long term study of 2 shots?23:17
lastshellvaccines are less than 2 years so23:18
Pawel[m]1lastshell: So how can one claim that they are safe if we don't know long term effects?23:18
LjLHow can you claim that a vaccine is safe after 10 years of using it? Maybe there are some terrible adverse effects that happen only after 20 years23:19
lastshelllmao23:19
LjLScience doesn't predict the future, but that hasn't stopped us from using vaccines before23:20
lastshellThe Infectious Disease Society of America (IDSA) estimates that the spike proteins that were generated by COVID-19 vaccines last up to a few weeks, like other proteins made by the body.23:20
nixonixpawel, not any previous vaccines have been required more than 6 months of safety data (or 12 months with adjuvanted types), not 2 years or 5 years. yeah this time it was 2 months (got maybe around 3 before appr) and the trials have also been similar size, 20-30k something23:20
nixonixdid you read that nbc article i linked above? the part about 6 weeks max when the side effects have always appeared? not after year or two or something23:21
Pawel[m]1nixonix: and that is also the problem of every previous vaccine, imo.. but let's not broaden our discussion into traditional vaccines right now23:21
nixonixso no vaccines should be approved, before waiting for 2-5 years? despite pandemic and millions dying while waiting?23:22
nixonix(safety data recuirements above were for usa. other countries might have slightly different, but prob around the same usually)23:24
Pawel[m]1I can't see the link to the article you mentioned :( could you re-send it to me?23:24
nixonixhttps://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/how-dr-arwady-responds-to-those-worried-about-vaccines-long-term-side-effects/2520299/23:24
nixonixthat says withing 6 weeks. i think within 8 weeks is closer, but i dont have a link to confirm how it was with pandemrix exactly, within 2 months or so i think23:25
nixonixmeaning serious side effects, that werent super rare like 1 per million or so, or not that severe, like these myo/pericarditeses (95% mild, the rest treatable, and not confirmed deaths yet)23:28
Arsaneritfunny how some of the same people complain that the vaccine doesn't last long enough and that it might have long term side effects23:29
Pawel[m]1Arsanerit: it's not funny and it's not out of equation.. you  can take.. a recreational drug one night, have fun for ONLY one night, and be damaged for the rest of your life.. it happens to some people.23:30
Pawel[m]1Not sure what makes you think that is not possible.23:30
Pawel[m]1Can't wait for a soundbite, with someone picking on my analogy. It's not perfect, but again.. what makes you so sure that this is not possible.23:32
Pawel[m]1Toxic effects of whatever is injected can be long lasting, the immunity can be waning.. which it is waning.23:32
nixonixno country in the world to my knowledge - possibly excluding north korea and turkmenistan - where hc officials decided to wait for years of safety data before approving some of these vaccines (those available for them)23:32
Arsaneritthere is no certainty23:32
nixonixso every countries hc officials were wrong, or in the same conspiracy?23:32
ArsaneritThere is no certainty, but there is a tradeoff between the risks of vaccinating and the risks of not vaccinating.23:33
de-factoi would even argue that because that 6 bln dose of these vaccines were given already that we even should be able to know the rarest side effects and that we have seen from other vaccines that any side effects usually show up in the first few months already when the immune system reacts to the presence of the antigen23:33
ArsaneritBy now we know a bit about the long term effects of not vaccinating (long covid), but afaik there is no evidence of any long term side effects of vaccinating.23:33
Pawel[m]1We live in a day of age where you get character assasinated, censored, demonised, suspended, most mainstream media throwing shit on you, if you question the main narrative. That includes doctors, scientists, politicians, nurses, patients.23:34
Arsanerit6 billion really?23:34
ArsaneritPawel[m]1: tbh most people just get ignored if they say silly things23:34
nixonixevery drug is dangerous. some of they very rarely, but they still are. but its usually better to use them, when the alternative is worse23:34
LjLIndeed, we also don't know about the long-term side effects of COVID, but we already know that so far it has more and more serious ones than the vaccines. Why would we bet on that situation reversing? I mean, it could, but again we have no crystal ball, we should go with what we have evidence for having a benefit23:34
de-factohttps://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations  says 77.89 doses per 100 people, hence for 7.9bln ppl it would mean 6.15bln doses23:35
lastshellPawel[m]1 is true that the media manipulates people, agree 100% and they have there own narrative23:35
Pawel[m]1Arsanerit: I don't agree. Most get punished for speaking up and 100x more are self-censouring, because they don't want to get that punishment, lose their jobs/.licences etc..23:35
Arsaneritde-facto: I think that statistic only covers a subset of countries?23:35
nixonixcaffeine has a long list of bad adverse effects. they are just very rare (with normal coffee consumption)23:35
LjLSo, COVID long term effects: certainly many, vaccine long term effects: quite possibly none, with a small possibility of that proving false, although it hasn't happened with other vaccines before. Why would I pick COVID?23:36
de-factoArsanerit, the map looks pretty complete to me23:36
ArsaneritHmm, it does say 6.1 billion doses have been administrated, I'm surprised.23:36
ArsaneritI thought it was much less.23:36
de-factodata at https://github.com/owid/covid-19-data/tree/master/public/data/vaccinations/country_data23:36
ArsaneritIn particular considering "Only 2.2% of people in low-income countries have received at least one dose", which doesn't add up to me, considering the majority of the world live in low income countries.23:36
lastshellmedia doesn't talk about improve health and fitness activity23:36
lastshelland likes to be more alarmistist23:37
Pawel[m]1Guys listen to this... one TV show in Poland - invited some doctors and people working in the gov in the past, in the health sector ( if I am not mistaken - I cant remember the details)..23:37
Pawel[m]1THey were discussing the lockdowns, masks, covid etc.. before there even were vaccines ( if I remember correctly )... DO you know what happened?23:37
Pawel[m]1The show got CANCELLED .... so please don't tell me people just get ignored if they say something opposing the mainstream narrative. THEY LOSE THEIR CAREERS.23:37
de-factoyeah keep in mind many received two doses and countries starting giving third ones already23:37
Pawel[m]1It got cancelled after streaming this episode.23:37
ArsaneritPawel[m]1: how does cancelling a TV show end the career of a doctor?23:38
Pawel[m]1nixonix: please... let's not compare apples to oranges..23:38
ArsaneritPolish TV is not known to be democratic, so it's not a good example of anything.23:39
BrainstormNew from COVID tweets: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Trust in scientists has changed during the pandemic, which varies considerably in the 12 countries studied, and has affected compliance with mitigation measures and vaccination uptakepnas.org/content/118/40…@PNASNews pic.twitter.com/8zdi95obFk → https://is.gd/KP9biG23:39
Pawel[m]1Arsanerit: you are not serious man are you?23:39
nixonixwe have an antivaxer group here, that sent a letter telling vaccinations should stop or something. all md's or veterinarians, around 2023:39
Pawel[m]1what about the TV show presenter? is he a robot or what?23:39
Pawel[m]1that's 1)23:39
nixonixall or almost all retired, or lost their lisence. before this epidemic23:39
Pawel[m]1and 2) people who are persistent enough with getting their voices heard - doctors I mean - they get canceled.23:39
ArsaneritI don't know if cancelling a TV show ends the career of the presenter necessarily.23:40
ArsaneritI can't speak for Polish TV, which afaik is pretty much state controlled.23:40
ArsaneritBut if people say dangerously silly things then maybe giving them a platform is not a great idea.23:40
Arsaneritthat long predates the pandemic23:41
Arsaneritthere are "alternative health" woo practicioners who say one shouldn't take medicine23:41
ArsaneritWould you invite them to spread their deadly propaganda on prime time TV?  I wouldn't.23:41
Pawel[m]1In poland there are few doctors being put in front of commission, threatened that their licence will be taken away... getting suspended, going to courts etc... those are independent..23:42
Pawel[m]1In the end I don't think they lose the licence, I heard some of them won. But it's still a major hustle no one wants to go through... and still they are getting thrown lot of shit at.23:42
Pawel[m]1And those are probably independent docotrs..23:42
Pawel[m]1Those who work for a hospital? public hospital?? ha... job lost immediatelly... :)23:42
Pawel[m]1probably with a difficulty to go to any other hospital23:42
Pawel[m]1Arsanerit: are you excausing it or what?23:42
nixonixmany in  that group of antivaxer doctors also sell their alternative medicines or their advice on them23:42
ArsaneritPawel[m]1: Excusing what?23:42
Pawel[m]1Arsanerit: I would take holistic over conventional medicine most of the time. from my own life experience23:43
ArsaneritPawel[m]1: Well, I think a doctor who shares that view should indeed not have a job.23:43
Pawel[m]1Arsanerit: saying the problem was there before, doesn't mean it's ok for it to be now23:43
Pawel[m]1Arsanerit: I think you should leave that up to a doctor, since you are not a doctor maybe23:43
ArsaneritThe problem of anti-scientific "doctors" was there before and is there today.23:43
ArsaneritMaybe I'm not a doctor.23:43
ArsaneritBut I am a scientist, and in case of medicine the anti-scientific view can kill.23:44
Pawel[m]1My personal experiences with traditional doctors - waste of time, moslty bad experiences.23:44
Pawel[m]1Holistic doctors - nothing but amazing experiences.23:44
nixonixhas a country done this yet: sars2 vaccine is part of our medical system. you can opt out if you want, but then you are out23:44
Pawel[m]1So please.. don't talk of stuff you have no experience with23:44
Pawel[m]1and things you just heard on fakestream TV23:44
ArsaneritPawel[m]1: I have experience with science.23:44
lastshellPawel[m]1 food is medicine, sadly most folks don't eat healthy23:44
Pawel[m]1Arsanerit: have you got experience with corruption in science?23:45
Pawel[m]1ok tell me23:45
nixonixdid you find those studies yet?23:46
Pawel[m]1Arsanerit: you are a scientist and you know so much about this and that.. all alternative is bad all traditional is good23:47
Pawel[m]1tell me: why peptides such as bpc157 (and dozens of others) that have those EXTREMELY beneficial properties.. I mean.. freaking wonder drugs/supplements, by what I have heard so far and by what the studies show...23:47
Pawel[m]1why if it's so good, there is 0 interest to release this to the public?23:47
Pawel[m]1https://mybiohack.com/blog/bpc-157-pl-14736-pl-10-pld-11623:47
Pawel[m]1I mean.. those are SUPER safe as well.. never heard a bad thing about them. People do it at home etc.. also studies can't find a lethal dose, you can pump it like crazy into animals and nothing happens to them etc.23:49
Pawel[m]1Why there is no interest to study it/sell it to people/ for FDA to approve it for human use, and the whole shabang?23:49
nixonixhow about the vaccine studies`23:49
Pawel[m]1also: https://selfhacked.com/blog/bpc-157/23:49
BrainstormNew from COVID tweets: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): For Covid-19, more than ever before, it's vital to keep clinicians in the US healthcare workforce. These are 10 steps that will helpacpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M2…@AnnalsofIM @ACPinternists @EileenBarrettNM @DarilynMoyer pic.twitter.com/vomWQ9ylHS → https://is.gd/W8QT9823:49
ArsaneritPawel[m]1: if they're so good then there will be peer reviewed scientific literature showing that they will be23:49
Arsaneritif they're so good, show the evidence23:50
Pawel[m]1nixonix: will get back to you no need to repeat yourself23:50
Arsanerit(anecdotes are not evidence)23:50
nixonix`we should try to be on topic, at least most of time, imo23:50
Pawel[m]1Arsanerit: read...... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/a9590e635f05290ede08feb4b3f4b536ceb7e0df)23:50
ArsaneritPawel[m]1: no23:51
Arsaneritgoodnight23:52
de-factowhats that BPC-157? do we have a molecule for that?23:52
Pawel[m]1nixonix: so say that, don't spam me with the same question :) I am trying to have a conversation here. Plus:23:52
Pawel[m]1I told you - I did not say today vaccines are unsafe as I did not want to start that conversation right now.23:52
Pawel[m]1I was refering to the safety monitoring systems that don't work.23:52
Pawel[m]1Arsanerit: is this not a study? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8298609/ ?... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/45dfd06315a59931c2ee831edbba581ae0875891)23:54
lastshellgut health is important is our 2nd brain23:54
Pawel[m]1lastshell: doctors would not agree with you.. only meds and vaccines ;p23:55
dTalI'm pretty sure it's my first brain, actually23:56
nixonixpawel, for the data from the trials, and then from all the countries, we know about the risks of these western approved vaccines pretty well currently, despite that in usa and some other countries harm reporting systems arent perfect. they are very good in countries like norway, australia, denmark etc23:56
dTalThe one in my head comes third.23:56
lastshelllmao dTal i'm also getting hungry23:57
Pawel[m]1> <@pawel777:matrix.org> is this not a study? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8298609/ ?... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/868e7e96ad904094895eb6b8ca781f50fd382401)23:57
nixonixwe also know the minimum of harm that sars2 infection causes (not maximum, since the scope of permanent organ and brain damage etc isnt known currently), and based on data these vaccines are much saver than infection without protection, its clear by now23:58
nixonixif you disagree, please provide some support to your position23:58
Pawel[m]1nixonix: sure, maybe you are right, I would love somehow confirm whether they are really that good... not sure how23:59

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