| nixonix | what are those libera.ems.host links? text or pictures? lengthy comments to something said here? | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| nixonix | anyways, i asked what you meant by lies, then after we got over from fauci, i asked about lies related to vaccines. show me the evidence, other than non-perfect VAERS in usa. maybe it is the other way, vaccines are actually safer than what is in VAERS... | 00:03 |
| LjL-Matrix | Not quite being able to follow the discussion now so just interjecting: nobody is happy that these vaccines have ended up being much less effective than we hoped, because if Delta, nor that they wane faster than we hoped they would. I think the initial "95%" for the mRNA one sets some, in retrospect, excessively "wow" expectations, and since after Alpha we should have been very wary that completely new variants could indeed arise (many were | 00:03 |
| LjL-Matrix | saying this virus seemed to mutate very little before Alpha, but hey, that changed) and prepared to make variant-specific vaccines. Instead now we don't have one ready. I think nixonix posted yesterday something about how/why the "promise" of mRNA vaccines bring able to be tweaked quickly didn't deliver. | 00:03 |
| Pawel[m]1 | <nixonix> "if you disagree, please provide..." <- The thing is ... I would really have to write an essey to reply to your question as it's a very complex issue.. and currently I am not sure I am in a position in which I can commit to that. But I will try to provide some info for you soon on what I think ok | 00:04 |
| LjL-Matrix | But even with all that, the vaccines still do seem like they're much better than nothing, at least for adults, sure we can discuss where the risk/benefit ratio becomes bad for younger people... | 00:04 |
| nixonix | yeah, i was so happy about vaccine efficacy when i came back in june. too bad delta is tough, and vaccines wane. but the situation is improving, and better and more lasting vaccines will come too, some day | 00:05 |
| nixonix | *immunity from vaccines wane | 00:05 |
| LjL-Matrix | It may be hard to explain to unvaccinated people that they should vaccinate while also having to explain to vaccinated people that their protection is waning. But it's hard because scientific communication to the masses is hard, not because there is an inherent contradiction | 00:06 |
| de-facto | its not only immunity from vaccines wane, its also antigenic drift ongoing by such a massive amount of viral replications still being tolerated | 00:06 |
| nixonix | i dont think within the dominating variant that is much a factor. sure if something more immune evasive variant takes delta's place some day (and prob will) | 00:08 |
| nixonix | but the mutation rate for S1 increased a lot already year ago. possibly in reinfected people | 00:09 |
| de-facto | vaccines still are based on Wuhan-Hu-1 signatures | 00:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID tweets: Anthony J Leonardi, PhD, MS (@fitterhappierAJ): I totallly agree w/ deepti's foresightful assessment on needing high titers for variants.Gigavaxx us O Covid priest! twitter.com/dgurdasani1/st… pic.twitter.com/t0KLJ4TJu5 → https://is.gd/8IgDKI | 00:10 |
| nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/trvrb/status/1437519299975925761 | 00:10 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Trevor Bedford (@trvrb): "We also observe convergent evolution in individual mutations and identify a subset that occur repeatedly in parallel and when occurring are associated with clade growth. This [...] | 00:10 |
| nixonix | (not sure if mutation rate actually increased, but the rate where non-synonymous mutations were selected in S1 mostly, but N too. evolutionary rate) | 00:12 |
| de-facto | Wuhan-Hu-1 isolate https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/MN908947 compare with reverse engineered vaccine s-protein sequences at https://github.com/NAalytics/Assemblies-of-putative-SARS-CoV2-spike-encoding-mRNA-sequences-for-vaccines-BNT-162b2-and-mRNA-1273 | 00:14 |
| LjL | nixonix: I lost now but I saw you asked about libera.ems.host earlier... People talking from Matrix can send messages that are too long for IRC (which has max 512 characters per command), so the bridge handles them by sending them ad multiple messages but only as long as it's less than 3 or so of them, otherwise it would get too spammy and trigger bots... So if it's even longer, it "pastebins" it into a libera.ems.host URL, which it also uses for when Matrix users | 00:17 |
| LjL | post images or videos. EMS stands for Element Matrix Services I believe. On the Matrix side, you just see the relevant messages, images or videos | 00:17 |
| nixonix | ok. i suspected something like that | 00:18 |
| de-facto | .title https://corona.bii.a-star.edu.sg/ <-- comparison possible with that tool | 00:20 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From corona.bii.a-star.edu.sg: CoVsurver - CoronaVirus Surveillance Server | 00:20 |
| de-facto | btw do we have any new sequences from next gen vaccines for comparison? | 00:20 |
| nixonix | defacto, how different? i think some of the vaccines used that sequence from diamond princess | 00:21 |
| nixonix | with those proline substitutions, and i think pfizer with only one amino acid change had that luciferace. too bad they didnt delete furin site | 00:22 |
| de-facto | yeah pretty much all of then have those two prefusion stabilizing proline substitions and some codon optimizations, hence the necessity to use that tool for comparison, it can understand the coding | 00:23 |
| nixonix | some of the vaccines tell exactly what sequence they used, and what modifications they did | 00:23 |
| de-facto | above are reverse engineered and leaked info | 00:24 |
| Pawel[m]1 | <LjL-Matrix> "Not quite being able to follow..." <- Thank you for sharing your view. I have something to say to that:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/7d5b44454085645d340776bd9889a0db6d377577) | 00:24 |
| nixonix | at least those using that DP sequence. maybe those dont, that use some delta seq | 00:24 |
| nixonix | what was the difference between pfizer and moderna original? one aminoacid, what change and what position? | 00:24 |
| de-facto | yeah exactly that i would like to see, e.g. if the new ones use hexa-pro stabilizations and are based on some delta strain | 00:25 |
| de-facto | also if they did something to the furin site etc | 00:25 |
| nixonix | you saw that latest nasal vax paper? ljl put it in his collection | 00:25 |
| de-facto | pfizer and moderna use the exact same s-protein with 2-proline stabilizations, other codon optimizations and other sequences before and after | 00:26 |
| nixonix | so they dont have that claimed one amino acid difference? | 00:27 |
| de-facto | lol damn now i also use that naming scheme, actually its BioNTech and modeRNA, Pfizer just did make the trials | 00:27 |
| de-facto | which one are you talking about nixonix ? | 00:27 |
| nixonix | i have seen a claim, they have one amino acid difference, which should cause that luciferace in pfizer (wondering if its true, and can really be induced by one amino acid substitution in S) | 00:28 |
| de-facto | pasting https://github.com/NAalytics/Assemblies-of-putative-SARS-CoV2-spike-encoding-mRNA-sequences-for-vaccines-BNT-162b2-and-mRNA-1273/blob/main/Figure1Figure2_032321.fasta into https://corona.bii.a-star.edu.sg/ | 00:28 |
| de-facto | gives for BNT162b2 the two proline stabilizations K986P and V987P and the same for mRNA-1273 | 00:30 |
| nixonix | yeah, the claim was not true then. need to find out how they do that luciferace then. prob in nanoparticle, like i thought | 00:32 |
| nixonix | so, while i suspected the claim, i hoped it was true, because it could be used to track the reason for those heart inflammations (and also thought probably isnt in S, because it would have been used for that already) | 00:33 |
| nixonix | there is a new paper finding mechanism for mrna vax induced myocarditis in mice (although mice lie) | 00:34 |
| nixonix | .title https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciab707/6353927 | 00:35 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From academic.oup.com: Intravenous Injection of Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) mRNA Vaccine Can Induce Acute Myopericarditis in Mouse Model | Clinical Infectious Diseases | Oxford Academic | 00:35 |
| nixonix | that too is due to vaccine going to vein, instead of (almost) all in muscle and lymphoid tissue | 00:37 |
| de-facto | oh Campbell's conjecture? i said it months before him :D | 00:39 |
| nixonix | why you talking about campbell all the time. he didnt even suggested the mechanism (ive given 3 hypotheses already i think, that include vaccine in vein and ending in pulmorary circulation). yeah, building on other studies, but adding stuff of my own... | 00:43 |
| nixonix | ..nary | 00:44 |
| pwr22 | Pretty sure my flat mate got his Moderna injected into his blood stream | 00:44 |
| pwr22 | There was a lot of bleeding so I'm guessing artery too | 00:44 |
| pwr22 | I saw a Cambbell video going over his thinking on it | 00:45 |
| pwr22 | s/Cambbell/Campbell/ | 00:45 |
| nixonix | are there arteries or veins (funny, i used the word vein, meaning any vessel..) | 00:45 |
| nixonix | in deltoid muscle | 00:45 |
| de-facto | yes of course | 00:46 |
| de-facto | its a muscle | 00:46 |
| pwr22 | I don't tend to think much of him personally but at least here's there getting some facts out there and people like to listen to him | 00:46 |
| pwr22 | 🤷 | 00:46 |
| nixonix | both then? | 00:46 |
| LjL | Pawel[m]1: you're talking about ADE I presume? The Pfizer CEO said that it's "likely"? | 00:46 |
| nixonix | which route goes to pulmonary circulation before liver, vein or artery? | 00:46 |
| pwr22 | In any case, it goes into the blood stream in either case and most ends up in the liver | 00:47 |
| pwr22 | According to studies I read | 00:47 |
| pwr22 | If it's in the muscle it'll last a few days but if it gets IV proper the liver will capture it all in a day | 00:47 |
| pwr22 | Then it's gone a day later | 00:47 |
| pwr22 | The liver, it dose love those tasty lipids! | 00:47 |
| pwr22 | *does | 00:48 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3lx6Scwfhg | 00:48 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.youtube.com: New evidence - YouTube | 00:48 |
| nixonix | in that study in mice, it went to immune cells and "cardiomyocytes and intracardiac vascular endothelial cells, but not skeletal myocytes" | 00:48 |
| nixonix | but not sure where they injected it... | 00:48 |
| de-facto | Campbell about not aspirating on Jun 30, 2021 | 00:48 |
| pwr22 | Significantly more than in the deltoid? | 00:49 |
| nixonix | meaning when they did iv injection, not when they did im | 00:49 |
| pwr22 | I mean what is the difference between IV and IM | 00:49 |
| pwr22 | Like is it significantly different? What about over different timescales? | 00:49 |
| de-facto | pwr22, the problem when injecting it into blood stream is that it will make cells all over the bloom with spikes and possibly cause micro-thrombosis when it does that with epithelial cells (blood vessel walls) which would be especially not so good with the very smallest of those | 00:51 |
| nixonix | "only IV group developed histopathological changes of myopericarditis as evidenced by cardiomyocyte degeneration, apoptosis, and necrosis with adjacent inflammatory cell infiltration and calcific deposits on visceral pericardium, although evidence of coronary artery or other cardiac pathologies was absent | 00:51 |
| de-facto | *all over the body bloom with spikes | 00:51 |
| nixonix | so the first dose needed to be im for those adverse effects to happen. they werent bad, but they lasted. then the 2nd dose could be either iv or im, and they were "markedly aggravated" | 00:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID tweets: Zara 👩🏻🔬👩🏻⚕️🚨🦠🧠☠️🚨 (@ZiikZiiii): @fitterhappierAJ @celinegounder @Boozzzzzz @harper Remember Angie claiming airborne is nonsense while running with N95 outside? Something like that🤡 → https://is.gd/7P1LqQ | 00:53 |
| de-facto | eew photos of cut open mice in that paper :P | 00:54 |
| nixonix | i think their mouse study is n:o 1 candidate currently, not the mechanisms i hypothesized. but lets see | 00:54 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: Given that even with IM injection large amounts of it build up in the liver quickly I think we can safely say that it is always getting into circulation and those epithelial cells. So that said, is it a question of quantity and / or duration? | 00:54 |
| pwr22 | Afaik pretty much any immune response will causing increased clotting in any case too? | 00:55 |
| de-facto | i thought it goes down the lymphatic system to remove it? | 00:55 |
| nixonix | this isnt a clotting issue probably (and isnt necessarily vaccine ending up in vessels, although it might) | 00:56 |
| pwr22 | Or any injury for that matter | 00:56 |
| Pawel[m]1 | <LjL> "Pawel: you're talking about..." <- https://www.insider.com/pfizer-ceo-vaccine-resistant-coronavius-variant-likely-2021-8 | 00:56 |
| Pawel[m]1 | of course, they want to come up with another vaccine for it lol... but i think the consequences can be disasterous, from what i have heard | 00:56 |
| pwr22 | If you sprain your ankle you are at increased risk of clotting 😛 | 00:56 |
| nixonix | immune reaction of some type, it could also be just some S epitopes mimicing some CM surface proteins and thus autoantibody reaction | 00:56 |
| pwr22 | nixonix: I am perhaps using the wrong term when I say clotting, I mean some incidences of some time of thrombosis | 00:57 |
| nixonix | which doesnt need vaccine in vessels then | 00:57 |
| pwr22 | s/time/type/ | 00:57 |
| Pawel[m]1 | > <@pawel777:matrix.org> https://www.insider.com/pfizer-ceo-vaccine-resistant-coronavius-variant-likely-2021-8 | 00:57 |
| Pawel[m]1 | > | 00:57 |
| Pawel[m]1 | > of course, they want to come up with another vaccine for it lol... but i think the consequences can be disasterous, from what i have heard | 00:57 |
| Pawel[m]1 | i mean from what some experts claim.. . | 00:57 |
| nixonix | yeah, i may not be thrombosis, but some type of immune reaction towards the CM cells | 00:58 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: Could be lymph but given that lymph is just the common domain between structures (including blood vessels) I expect here's some exchange both ways | 00:58 |
| nixonix | like if it needs vaccine in vessels, it might be superantigen in S and then t-cell infiltration | 00:58 |
| nixonix | or other types of immune cell infiltration, without superantigen having part in it. or a combination | 00:59 |
| pwr22 | Aside from the placental / blood-brain barriers I'm not aware that our bodies are particularly interested in keeping clean room procedures in place 😛 | 00:59 |
| nixonix | but that mouse study supports the idea of vaccine in vessels having part of the mechanism | 00:59 |
| pwr22 | Yeah and some lymphocytes go in / out of the epithelium too iirc | 01:00 |
| de-facto | pwr22, well its not that simple since blooming with spikes will lead to that cell being attacked and killed eventually, so in that case the wall of a blood vessel is damaged... and that triggers the clotting cascade with von Willebrand factor et al | 01:00 |
| pwr22 | I also suspect that injecting it all in the blood isn't great for immunity or side effects btw, I'd just like to understand it more | 01:00 |
| nixonix | or a combination of different mechanisms, if no vaccine (or not much) in vessels, that adverse immune effect happens only rarely, so that actual heart inflammation requiring medical care happens. but if vaccine in vessels, it becomes worse, due to those several suggested mechanisms (one of them in the mouse study - other ones, well, in irc... | 01:01 |
| pwr22 | Again, in immune response / inflammation the body goes kind of "scorched earth" anyway so I think it's always gonna lead to some tissue damage in / around capillaries that allow seepage into the blood | 01:01 |
| pwr22 | Plus I like to play devil's advocate when I see people being a bit too certain 😛 | 01:02 |
| de-facto | it should not end in the blood stream, just imagine it would cause a lot of tiny clots in the lungs, that would significantly increase blood pressure for that part of blood circulation, meaning the heart would have to pump really hard to get the blood through the lungs | 01:02 |
| nixonix | immune response needs to have a part in it anyway, because it mostly happens after 2nd dose, where the immune response is much stronger | 01:02 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: That's what I'm saying - all infections would kill you if our body was that rubbish at dealing with them | 01:02 |
| nixonix | so not just cell damage because vaccine made them S protein factories | 01:02 |
| pwr22 | I'm like 98% sure it'll be possible detect the vaccine in the blood stream after an IM jab | 01:03 |
| pwr22 | How much / and whether that matters - I dunno | 01:04 |
| pwr22 | the body is very leaky 😛 | 01:04 |
| de-facto | RNAaemia is not a good thing, as it means the virus reached the "highway" of distributing itself in the body | 01:04 |
| pwr22 | And lymph just goes back into the blood anyway | 01:04 |
| pwr22 | so come to think of it, whether it goes into lymph or not primarily doesn't matter | 01:04 |
| pwr22 | it'll get to a lymph node, go back into the blood pobably | 01:05 |
| pwr22 | Then the liver takes it out | 01:05 |
| de-facto | regarding to mRNA LNPs yeah i think it matters how much of it ends up in the blood it should be as few of those as possible | 01:05 |
| pwr22 | The impressive thing is that the liver ends up expressing those spikes then a day later it's cleaned them all up | 01:05 |
| pwr22 | Whereas in the muscle (which is still a highly active and well supplied organ) it will last 5 days | 01:06 |
| pwr22 | Livers are awesome 😛 | 01:06 |
| nixonix | there are lots of possibilities (apparently immune reaction because of LNP itself isnt high on list, they shouldnt cause immune reaction afaik), also induced by mrna in MC cells. maybe thats why not many researchers have suggested the mechanism, other than some type of immune reaction | 01:09 |
| de-facto | yeah liver can regenerate itself as can muscles | 01:09 |
| de-facto | but nixonix does that paper also give any hint why its only young men after 2nd shot? | 01:09 |
| nixonix | but it seems those thinking vaccine ending up in vessels causing it, are in minority | 01:09 |
| nixonix | 2nd shot is clear, stronger immune response. young males - i was just started to read it when i had to argue about that nonsense earlier. but it was a mouse study | 01:11 |
| nixonix | stronger and different immune response could be why young males. that ace2 immune complex hypothesis had estrogen as a mitigating factor, remember... so maybe thats the correct one (: | 01:12 |
| de-facto | btw afaik young men also are more probably to get myocarditis from other viral infects | 01:14 |
| nixonix | " Similar histopathological changes and severity were found in male mice" "But IL-1 β expression was significantly higher in cardiac tissues of male than female mice at 2 dpi | 01:14 |
| nixonix | mouse model with both male and female mice, IV but not IM administration of COVID-19 mRNA vaccine induced a rapid onset of multifocal myopericarditis with elevated serum troponin, cardiomyocyte degeneration, and changes of both necrosis and apoptosis, adjacent inflammatory infiltrate of mononuclear cells, interstitial edema, and visceral | 01:15 |
| nixonix | pericardial calcification within 2 dpi | 01:15 |
| nixonix | so there were some differencies according to sex in mice | 01:16 |
| nixonix | Limitations of our study included the lack of data in explaining the association of post-vaccination myocarditis with younger age or male gender. Although our male mice had similar degree of myopericarditis to female mice, a lower vaccine dose may show up differences in disease susceptibility due to immunological differences or ACE2 expression | 01:18 |
| nixonix | driven by sex hormone and X chromosome | 01:18 |
| de-facto[m] | Interesting, so they also found such differences in mice then | 01:18 |
| pwr22 | My 12 year old brother is having his vaccine soon | 01:19 |
| pwr22 | I'm kind of worried for him but I still feel like he should get it | 01:20 |
| Pawel[m]1 | pwr22: he is in close to 0% risk of dying from covid.. why? | 01:20 |
| de-facto[m] | No sports for two weeks after the shots | 01:20 |
| pwr22 | Sometimes it's about more than just the person getting the vaccine | 01:20 |
| Pawel[m]1 | Natural immunity bro... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/dd0d1634de1facf13de7679d5570817f6c186fca) | 01:20 |
| pwr22 | de-facto[m]: His school will just do whatever they want to do | 01:20 |
| Pawel[m]1 | I meant - natural immunity is far superior... | 01:21 |
| pwr22 | My brother has lung vulnerabilities like all of us (genetics / asthma) but more importantly his parents and grandparents are very vulnerable | 01:21 |
| de-facto[m] | He should just do what he himself wants to do | 01:21 |
| pwr22 | Sure, I don't disagree | 01:21 |
| de-facto[m] | Pawel natural immunity ich much much more risky | 01:22 |
| pwr22 | de-facto[m]: Lol de-facto, that's not how schools work in the uk 😀 | 01:22 |
| Pawel[m]1 | still, how likely is he to die from covid - statistically ? | 01:22 |
| nixonix | are we antivaxing here nowdays? | 01:22 |
| pwr22 | Pawel[m]1: I don't need to calculate that precisely and again, it's not really about his personal risk | 01:22 |
| pwr22 | nixonix: I hope not! | 01:23 |
| Pawel[m]1 | pwr22: social pressure? | 01:23 |
| Pawel[m]1 | do vaccines stop transmission? | 01:23 |
| pwr22 | I generally trust the people who make these kinds of decisions | 01:23 |
| pwr22 | They are better than not having a vaccine | 01:23 |
| pwr22 | But they are less good at delta than other strains | 01:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Atlantic: CDC Director: ‘Walk, Don’t Run’ to Get Your Booster: Editor’s Note: This article is part of our coverage of The Atlantic Festival. Learn more and watch festival sessions here . For some of us, booster shots have finally arrived. But they’ve charted quite a meandering course to get here. First, last month, President Joe [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/vbdZ3b | 01:24 |
| Pawel[m]1 | Maddie paralyzed In Pfizer vaccine clinical trial as Pfizer requests EUA authorization... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/761a1c8a15014ddc0401d9002676386b1eafa59b) | 01:25 |
| pwr22 | Outliers exist | 01:26 |
| Pawel[m]1 | when this happens to anyone - no will care about you or your brother or you or anyone else | 01:26 |
| pwr22 | Pawel I'd ask you kindly to keep to your own business thanks | 01:26 |
| pwr22 | And to keep the theories to those with the weight of good statistics behind them | 01:27 |
| Pawel[m]1 | theories lol.. | 01:27 |
| Pawel[m]1 | sure we don't need to discuss that | 01:27 |
| pwr22 | Sure, lots of stuff that is statistically good are also theories | 01:27 |
| pwr22 | because we don't know for sure | 01:27 |
| pwr22 | I mean no offense by using theory that way | 01:28 |
| pwr22 | I.e. I think evolution is almost certainly right but it's still a theory | 01:28 |
| pwr22 | Though I wonder if some time we will start referring to it as a "law" some day? | 01:28 |
| pwr22 | I mean we have "laws" that are far more sketchy | 01:28 |
| pwr22 | I kind of feel like the religious push back in behind that distrinction... | 01:29 |
| pwr22 | s/distrinction/distinction/ | 01:29 |
| pwr22 | s/in/is/, s/distrinction/distinction/ | 01:29 |
| pwr22 | I do not believe it is 1 in 1000, because I do generally keep abreast of the stories in what I consider reputable scientific sources and afaik we don't have good science behind vaccines being that dangerous for kids | 01:30 |
| pwr22 | If we did, they certainly would not have been rolled out | 01:30 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for El Salvador: +2324 cases (now 104348), +17022 tests (now 1.3 million) since 15 hours ago — New Caledonia: +194 cases (now 6379), +10 deaths (now 93) since a day ago | 01:32 |
| pwr22 | Pawel[m]1: I've listened enough, probably more than most will and probably more amicably than most at that too | 01:33 |
| pwr22 | Yeah, we as a channel don't really believe in the manipulation / conspiracy angle of things | 01:33 |
| pwr22 | There are other IRC channels / matrix rooms around that are more about those topics | 01:33 |
| pwr22 | This is one is for mainstream accepted science (if you want to call it that 😀) and discussion there of | 01:33 |
| ublx | pwr22: the bridge ejected them | 01:33 |
| ublx | along with a large crowd | 01:34 |
| pwr22 | Lol, how am I still here? | 01:34 |
| de-facto | pwr22, i tend to disagree the decision should purely be based on his personal risk | 01:35 |
| pwr22 | It's certainly okay to have questions and share good info (like good in the verifiable academic sense) but getting into a length debate when others don't want to or being "like a broken record" or just being nasty is where I personally draw the line | 01:35 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: About the school thing and sports? | 01:35 |
| de-facto | no about if he wants to get vaccinated | 01:36 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: Ah, with all due respect he is not capable of making an informed decision himself | 01:37 |
| de-facto | if he himself decides he wants the vaccine because of considering nothing but his personal benefit to risk ratio he just should reject anyone trying to talk him into sports for 2 weeks after each of the injections | 01:37 |
| pwr22 | His only view on it is that he doesn't like injections so would like to not have it for that reason | 01:37 |
| pwr22 | As is probably the case for most 12 year olds 😛 | 01:37 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: Lol "talk him into it" there is no choice here mate 😀 | 01:37 |
| pwr22 | If you turn up without clothes, they will find some for you or make you do it in your uniform | 01:38 |
| de-facto | what you mean there is always a choice | 01:38 |
| pwr22 | You would need to get a doctors note to get the school to shut up and they made him go back really early even though my dad was still shielding and threatened legal action | 01:38 |
| pwr22 | The UK school system is shit | 01:38 |
| pwr22 | And inflexible | 01:38 |
| pwr22 | And broken | 01:38 |
| pwr22 | imo | 01:38 |
| pwr22 | but that's a different thing | 01:38 |
| de-facto | i did do whatever i wanted in school, sometimes teachers cried because of me | 01:39 |
| de-facto | i never got into real trouble because of that | 01:39 |
| pwr22 | > <@pawel777:matrix.org> when you have mandatory vaccinations and no liablity then you are removing any pressure on the vaccine manufacturers to make a safe product.. | 01:40 |
| pwr22 | > | 01:40 |
| pwr22 | > also the vaccine manufacturers doing their own safety studies is something ridiculous imo... | 01:40 |
| pwr22 | Which is why it's good that things like the UK NHS do their own trials | 01:40 |
| nixonix | there are different types of antivaxers. some of them avoid claiming something, because they are often asked for evidence. instead they are talking around the actual claim. that pawel dude is that type | 01:40 |
| nixonix | also he was directly antivaxing, suggesting that relative of pwr would be better off without vaccine | 01:41 |
| pwr22 | But.... the discussion on that has ended and amicably at that 🙂 | 01:42 |
| de-facto | pwr22, cant you help your brother by informing him about the current state of knowledge without leaving anything out and then let him decide? | 01:44 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.ahajournals.org/cms/asset/d56530c5-e05c-4187-ad9f-3426d75e7b4c/circulationaha.121.056135.fig02.jpg like this | 01:44 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.ahajournals.org: 18-24 Years 12-17 Years 24-29 Years Potential Risk of Myocarditis with COVID-19 Vaccination Females 8-10 myocarditis cases 4-5 myocarditis cases 2 myocarditis cases Males 56-69 myocarditis cases 45-56 [...] | 01:44 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: I have already done this but he's still a kid | 01:44 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.121.056135 actual article, just handy pic from this, the above | 01:45 |
| pwr22 | And tbh, most adults aren't even particularly rational about this sort of thing | 01:45 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.ahajournals.org: Myocarditis With COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines | Circulation | 01:45 |
| pwr22 | To be clear, he is not afraid of the vaccine hurting him - he remains only bothered about the needle and how much it will hurt | 01:45 |
| LjL | Testing Matrix bridge | 01:46 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: To be clear, no humans are some sort of turing-esque logic machine - just because you can provide facts doesn't really mean they do much use 😀 | 01:46 |
| pwr22 | That's what I'm saying | 01:46 |
| nixonix | that pic doesnt have allergic reactions from mrna vaccines (i dont say PEG because there might be other reasons like cholesterol perhaps). but its minor, they are recognized and treated, nobody died afaik | 01:46 |
| de-facto | tell him the needle does not hurt at all if he manages to let the arm hang down and completely relax the muscle, he has to realize that this is not a relevant point for his considerations | 01:47 |
| de-facto | and insist that they aspirate :D | 01:47 |
| de-facto | if they refuse ask for another doctor | 01:48 |
| nixonix | and probably different minor and super rare serious adverse effects, they just havent found yet. but doesnt affect the balance, because there are a lot more damage from sars2, years and decades will tell | 01:48 |
| nixonix | here some nurses have refused to aspirate. all of those telling about it, have just given up | 01:49 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: Lol, I'm not daft and have tried that. But he is afraid of it which is a very normal human response for someone his age. He's not a robot with some sort of Aristotelian deduction engine 😀 | 01:49 |
| pwr22 | "He has to realise..." this is *not* how human beings work in my experience | 01:49 |
| ublx | how long does the injection pain last? was it about 1 second? | 01:49 |
| pwr22 | I dunno, he must have had a bad experience before I suspect | 01:50 |
| nixonix | no pain, some discomfort maybe, very minor | 01:50 |
| ublx | tell him that, that's it's one second, and next to something like stubbing your toe, it hardly counts as pain | 01:50 |
| nixonix | both when not aspirated the 1st dose, and 2nd when she did | 01:50 |
| pwr22 | It's more about fear and how you respond to the pain, as after all pain is a subjective experience | 01:51 |
| pwr22 | ublx: he knows, he has had injections before | 01:51 |
| ublx | but i suppose for someone that young, with a head full of anxiety, the perceptions could be skewed towards pain | 01:51 |
| de-facto | honestly i did expect it to hurt since RKI wrote against aspiration because of "stress free" vaccinations by minimizing pain. I talked the doctor into aspirating and did let hang the arm, it did not hurt at all, i was surprised | 01:51 |
| pwr22 | which is why he fears them | 01:51 |
| pwr22 | lol | 01:51 |
| nixonix | he might have had bad experience from blood sample. it sometimes hits the nerve. its very different thing | 01:51 |
| pwr22 | It was not a blood test | 01:51 |
| pwr22 | I asked about this | 01:51 |
| pwr22 | Many of my family are in the medical field and so my brother knows more about random medicine stuff than the average UK person | 01:52 |
| pwr22 | he is not uninformed | 01:52 |
| nixonix | the second time i tried to concentrate to feel the pain, just out of curiosity if it really hurts a bit when aspirating. but no | 01:52 |
| pwr22 | I am flabbergasted that there is such a lack of empathy in this channel for a child being afraid of injections / pain 😀 | 01:52 |
| de-facto | i made that experience twice, injection pain completely absent | 01:52 |
| pwr22 | Like I am chucking out loud | 01:53 |
| pwr22 | IME since I stopped caring about needles / injections they don't bother me at all in terms of the pain | 01:53 |
| pwr22 | which happened a long time back I guess | 01:53 |
| pwr22 | Before that though they were quite a big deal for me and quite anxiety provoking | 01:54 |
| ublx | pwr22: i guess for a lot of us, that age was a long time ago | 01:54 |
| pwr22 | But I'm just a pin cushion for the nurses these days | 01:54 |
| de-facto | what i meant is he should realize that the risk that he should weight against his benefits have nothing to do with injection pains | 01:54 |
| nixonix | i dont like blood samples though. or dentists (never took the local anaesthesia or whatever, when offered tho, but just told them to drill) | 01:54 |
| nixonix | except with wisdom teeth | 01:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID tweets: NK Leb (@NickytaLeb): Remember when Baric said "this is just like OC43. Once everyone gets their first exposure then it's a nothing burger we'll be done with it by Qatar 2022"?Or when Robert Garry said "COVID BOVID"?Or when Linfa Wang said "this is just a common cold. Novelty is the only thing"? twitter.com/NickytaLeb/sta… → https://is.gd/J8LbVv | 01:56 |
| nixonix | not proven russian flu was oc43. maybe it was, maybe it wasnt | 01:56 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: Again, that's not how humans work 🤷. If it was no one would ever act in anger against better judgement or ever avoid or fear anything | 01:57 |
| nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/fitterhappierAJ/status/1316503739088461826 | 01:57 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix, the URL could not be loaded | 01:58 |
| nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/fitterhappierAJ/status/1316503739088461826 | 01:58 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Anthony J Leonardi, PhD, MS (@fitterhappierAJ): "loool it took millenia for herpes to not be lethal" | 42l - nitter | 01:58 |
| nixonix | we have no evidence sars2 will become milder in reasonable time. it may well, but also may get worse. and no evidence that when you get during the first couple years after birth, you are fine the rest of the life | 01:59 |
| nixonix | i told that idea here summer 2020. its a neat idea imo, maybe, or maybe not | 01:59 |
| MerlinMp[m] | Anyway if you have links about confirming covid cases after being recovered it will be more than appreciated | 02:00 |
| pwr22 | Pawel[m]1: I was just saying the the convo ended in a friendly manner 🙂 No offence meant 👐 | 02:00 |
| nixonix | reinfections? | 02:00 |
| de-facto | pwr22, hence maybe you could help him with understanding it from that perspective | 02:00 |
| pwr22 | LjL-Matrix: Lol I was about to say I am also pretty annoying | 02:01 |
| pwr22 | 😀 | 02:01 |
| nixonix | there are some pre-delta studies only. delta made reinfections much more likely. alpha did that already, but delta more so | 02:01 |
| nixonix | they are hard to find, because it needs very large population and good tracking of cases, a la denmark, and lots of cases during the delta phase | 02:01 |
| nixonix | good testing and large share of cases found for reinfection cases, with high reliability. and reinfection hospitalizations, they are easier to recognize (because usually people go to hospital when needed), but needs a large number of delta cases to get data without huge confidence intervals | 02:03 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: I've tried and it's reached the point where has has said "I don't really want to talk about this anymore" and I am respecting that 😉 | 02:04 |
| pwr22 | s/has/he/ | 02:04 |
| nixonix | lets say, if we have a country that has 20% prevalence before delta, and 1/4 of the cases identified, aka 5% identified infections in population. then there will be delta phase, and during this couple months, 2% more get infected, and 1/4 aka 0.5% identified... | 02:05 |
| de-facto | pwr22, ok then he should decide himself i guess with 12 he should be able to do that | 02:05 |
| MerlinMp[m] | nixonix: Ive meant not reinfections but regular covid cases | 02:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID tweets: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): A change in leadership at @US_FDA's Office of Vaccines Research and Review. This was necessitated by the resignation of the 2 FDA scientists who also led a strident opposition to use of 3rd shots nytimes.com/2021/09/27/us/… by @noahweiland → https://is.gd/xDHVol | 02:06 |
| de-facto | "covid cases after being recovered" isnt that reinfections? | 02:07 |
| nixonix | ah, ok. how to identify when theres no virus in the body? it would be from antibodies, if you still have them. if you have been vaccinated, youd need to look at N antibodies (if you still have them) | 02:07 |
| MerlinMp[m] | Ive found an article saying only PCR test can verify covid case -and later blood tests are untrustworhy | 02:08 |
| MerlinMp[m] | can antibodies be present due to sars (not covid) infection? | 02:08 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Mayotte: +23 cases (now 20242) since 3 days ago | 02:09 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: I'm sure he'll chat with the parents about it more before it happens | 02:10 |
| nixonix | continuing identifying reinfection calculation above, anyway: if protection vs reinfection would be 50%, then 5%*0.5%*50% = 0.000125. for a population of 1 million, there would be 1000000*0.000125 = 125 cases | 02:10 |
| LjL | MerlinMp[m], i don't think SARS antibodies are effective against COVID per se, but it appears from a couple of studies (well, mainly one, and one more indirectly) that if you already have antibodies to SARS, then when you get antibodies to COVID by vaccine, you develop antibodies that actually work on a range of coronaviruses (sarbecoviruses) and so probably cover all the known and perhaps future COVID variants | 02:11 |
| LjL | so i am hopeful in a vaccine that could include both SARS features and COVID features, or at least COVID features from multiple variants, since one of those studies also found the same result from mixing variants | 02:11 |
| LjL | let me link you the studies | 02:11 |
| de-facto | if it was my brother i would make sure he knows everything about it, even if he is annoyed i would inject him with all the relevant info without leaving anything out, then take him aside and tell him that he should decide himself and that i would help him enforcing his decision | 02:11 |
| nixonix | so in israel, population under 9M i think, that would mean around 1000 cases (the numbers used arent accurately what i used, but should be close enough, to show its hard to find with lowish CI) | 02:11 |
| pwr22 | LjL: That kinda sounds almost the opposite of that "first antigenic sin" thing would suggest 😀 | 02:12 |
| LjL-Matrix | Peter: kinda. but hey, maybe our immune system is only stupid sometimes? | 02:12 |
| MerlinMp[m] | LjL - just curious about regular antibodies from natural infection,not vaccination | 02:13 |
| nixonix | but i forgot, most of them are vaxed nowdays, lets say 80% of adults at least, so only around 200 left, reinfections among unvaccinated | 02:13 |
| LjL-Matrix | Merlin / Młp: it's likely the same would happen with infection (and in the SARS study, it definitely was from infection) | 02:13 |
| LjL-Matrix | Merlin / Młp, Peter : these are the studies https://www.zotero.org/groups/4391070/covid_links/tags/Universal%20antibodies/library (plus an annoyingly-titled article, pls "superhuman") | 02:14 |
| nixonix | for reinfection hospitalizations, much less. and depends on vax coverages in different age groups, and also infections among unvaccinated age groups. it gets too messy, and not reliable, with that small population | 02:14 |
| LjL-Matrix | the one titled "Pan-sarbecovirus..." is the one that directly involves SARS | 02:14 |
| nixonix | lets say average 10% hospitalizations, so only 20 reinfection hospitalizations in israel (prob even less in reality, because those unvaxed infections are more likely young males). shows you, from israel you dont get that type of information | 02:15 |
| nixonix | so you cant compare natural infection protection vs vaccine protection reliably using data from israel, imo. esp vs hospitalizations | 02:16 |
| nixonix | reminder for turbo | 02:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID tweets: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Why are symptomatic post-vaccination covid infections, without hospitalization (H), important?—they can be severe, on the brink of H—they can result in #LongCovid —they can transmit to others —they were the primary endpoint of the vaccine clinical trials for efficacy → https://is.gd/4OBF3v | 02:17 |
| nixonix | yeah, it is a bit opposite to OAS. its not known very well, when OAS happens instead of improved maturation of b-cells, breadth and polyclonality that is beneficial | 02:19 |
| nixonix | but i think its about activity of follicular t-cells. sometimes there is reduced activity when re-exposure with a bit different version of antigen | 02:20 |
| MerlinMp[m] | Sorry for my english - I see its called "covid survivors" which I called recovered | 02:22 |
| MerlinMp[m] | <LjL-Matrix> "Merlin / Młp, Peter : these..." <- Superhuman articles are too often polluted with vax results | 02:24 |
| LjL | MerlinMp[m], PCR is very sensitive, but i think antibody tests can be reliable... they're just not all the same, some are pretty crap, some are good. however, most antibody tests will just return positive if you've been vaccinated (but you can have N-protein antibody tests that discriminate between vaccine and infection) | 02:24 |
| Pawel[m]1 | <LjL-Matrix> "Pawel: okay if you're going to..." <- I wrote a long reply to that, but I don't want to bother you about it. I am up for a decent discussion, but if someone makes a soundbite, I am going to be pointing that out. (saying I cant back up my claims, when I haven't even made one yet, calling me flat-earther, when I am not ;) etc).. | 02:24 |
| Pawel[m]1 | Regarding vaccine fanatics.. well they exist ;d but sure I will try not to use that phrase. | 02:24 |
| nixonix | *or even the same exact antigen, like when getting the 2nd vax dose (while not waiting long enough in between, perhaps one of the reasons) | 02:25 |
| nixonix | pawel, what is a "soundbite"? and could you please press enter every once in the while, so we dont need to click links (when your comments exceed 512 or 3*512 characters - 512 char limit in irc) | 02:27 |
| MerlinMp[m] | LjL: Ive ready some news about anti-s (spike) and anti-c (capsid) antibodies - first grown from vax&survivors, second only by survivors | 02:27 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID tweets: Anthony J Leonardi, PhD, MS (@fitterhappierAJ): It's unethical to mandate children enter schools where a virus is circulating with a 1% hospitalization rate.It's systematic/institutionalized eugenics given the interferon errors in populations which create severe covid. → https://is.gd/eK0Ws3 | 02:27 |
| LjL | MerlinMp[m], yes, the N-protein is a capsid protein, so we're basically talking about the same thing. this is not new, by the way: when Pfizer did their main trial, they didn't PCR people unless they showed symptoms. but that meant we didn't know about asymptomatic infections. so they said they would later do N-protein assays (antibody tests) on every trial participant, to see if they are "survivors" to use your term | 02:29 |
| LjL | i think N-proteins assays have recently been used in... the UK? i'm not sure, someplace actually did it, though | 02:29 |
| de-facto | yeah antibodies against only S-protein are usually induced by vaccines (excluding those with inactivated SARS-CoV-2), and antibodies against N-protein (nucleocapsid) are indications of recovery from challenge with the life pathogen | 02:29 |
| LjL | i'm not sure if Pfizer ever did it, though | 02:29 |
| nixonix | what was the interferon thing? did leonardi explain that? some permanent changes to immune cell interferon expression? | 02:29 |
| LjL | there are some vaccines that produce antibodies against "everything", because they contain the whole virus inactivated. Sinovac, or Sinopharm (i always confuse those)... but mRNA and adenovirus-vector vaccines aren't in that category | 02:30 |
| nixonix | there was some lab in usa who did N assays, what was the name... | 02:30 |
| MerlinMp[m] | de-facto: So not only pcr but also antibody blood test can confirm prior covid infection | 02:31 |
| Pawel[m]1 | nixonix: soundbite to me is a statement that makes you sound as if you are the right one, but contains no real/coherent argument, value.. think of "don't listen to him he is an antivaxer" or "another flat-earther" or just putting words in people's mouths when they never said anything.. or like.. go to Twitter, it's full of soundbites ;p | 02:31 |
| LjL | %wik logical fallacy | 02:31 |
| Pawel[m]1 | putting words in people's mouths that they haven't said*.. sorry, my brain is wired | 02:31 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, from English Wikipedia: In philosophy, a formal fallacy, deductive fallacy, logical fallacy or non sequitur (/ˌnɒn ˈsɛkwɪtər/; Latin for "it does not follow") is a pattern of reasoning rendered invalid by a flaw in its logical structure that can neatly be expressed in a standard logic system, for example propositional [... want %more?] → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_fallacy | 02:31 |
| LjL | this may contain more nuances descriptions of those things than "soundbite" ;) for example "don't listen to him he is an antivaxer" or "another flat-earther" would be an ad hominem fallacy, in many cases | 02:32 |
| de-facto | MerlinMp[m], yes if no vaccination containing N-protein was given, where else would the antibodies against N-protein come from if they are found to be present in someone? | 02:32 |
| nixonix | what do you call a person who makes extraordinary claims, but offers no evidence to support them? how about a person, who tries to avoid claiming it straight like a man, but instead hints, and then says i didnt claim it? | 02:32 |
| LjL | honestly i never remember all the names for these things | 02:33 |
| LjL | but it's nice to have names for them | 02:33 |
| lastshell | I like alex jones | 02:34 |
| LjL | what's the gallop one that comes up often | 02:34 |
| lastshell | haha | 02:34 |
| dzho | gish gallop | 02:34 |
| MerlinMp[m] | de-facto: The same applies to s-protein antibodies? | 02:34 |
| LjL | thanks | 02:34 |
| dzho | np | 02:34 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for France: +1503 cases (now 7.0 million) since 19 hours ago — United Kingdom: +37 deaths (now 136369) since 22 hours ago | 02:34 |
| nixonix | never saw alex jones, but read an article recently: | 02:34 |
| Pawel[m]1 | nixonix: listen......... I texted you personally and told you that I promise to deliver you some more info as we go along, that I have chronic fatigue, that I did not plan this convo tonight, that I have been travelling for the last few months and haven't organised all the good resources that I ahve found... HOW DIFFCULT IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND? | 02:34 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/09/04/alex-jones-appears-to-take-ivermectin-on-air-mentions-joe-rogan-during-covid-19-rant/ | 02:34 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.forbes.com: Alex Jones Appears To Take Ivermectin On Air, Mentions Joe Rogan, During Covid-19 Rant | 02:34 |
| Pawel[m]1 | Pawel[m]1: that is apart from saying those things here on the main channel too | 02:35 |
| Pawel[m]1 | nixonix: like this literally is a soundbite, in my opinion | 02:35 |
| nixonix | pawel, no pm's. and what you said in it wasnt that, but you said you werent planned to have a convo like that today | 02:35 |
| lastshell | Looks like some booster shots already started in US | 02:35 |
| de-facto | note: that may not be the case with some of the inactivated (killed) vaccines containing the whole pathogen, e.g. when they grow SARS-CoV-2 and kill it with β-Propiolactone | 02:36 |
| lastshell | https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/booster-shot.html | 02:36 |
| Pawel[m]1 | nixonix: oh wow you got me lying (hence I must be wrong about everything else I said(?)) - another soundbite attempt...... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/77d7f1058834a8b549f59572e407078c475e6aa3) | 02:37 |
| Pawel[m]1 | I said to you.. this is a complex issue and i would probably have to write an essay which I dont know if I am in position to do right now.. but I will try to provide some more info on it | 02:37 |
| LjL | nixonix, Pawel[m]1: i suggest just dropping this for now. if i hear "soundbite" one more time i'm gonna flip, and at the same time nixonix is unlikely to read the long message URL, and you're just yelling past one another now. resurrect the subject when there's newfound material worth discussing | 02:38 |
| Pawel[m]1 | LjL: ok so I would appreciate if he stops talking about me until then | 02:39 |
| de-facto | MerlinMp[m] if someone did not get vaccinated and S-protein affine antibodies are present the assumption would be that they must have emerged from challenge with pathogen, if someone got vaccinated with a vaccine that only presents the S-protein the presence of antibodies against N-protein only could have emerged from pathogen challenge and if someone got vaccinated with inactivated pathogen nothing can be said at all because the same class of | 02:39 |
| de-facto | antibodies could have developed due to both vaccine or pathogen challenge | 02:39 |
| nixonix | lets just keep it here in the channel right now. if you claim something, or trying hard to avoid claims, but strongly suggesting vaccines arent safe, and natural infection would be better to that other chatters relative, that antivaxer stuff if i have ever seen some | 02:39 |
| nixonix | if you have evidence to support that, then i will certainly read that | 02:40 |
| lastshell | nixonix I was thinking natural inmunity is better than vaccines (I'm vaccinated) | 02:40 |
| LjL | i agree that based on what Pawel[m]1 has said today, he seems highly skeptical of, at least, the way *all* vaccines (not just the COVID ones) are tested in normal scientific medicine | 02:40 |
| LjL | at some point if you think you'd rather take holistic medicine over the regular scientific approach, i'm not sure it's even possible not to talk at cross purposes | 02:40 |
| MerlinMp[m] | <de-facto> "note: that may not be the case..." <- Im rather considering a totally non-vaxed person. I agree there might be other "artificial" sources of exposure but in case of no others injections were taken the only source of antibodies must be the virus itself | 02:41 |
| nixonix | right now, you dont have it, and its clear these western vaccines are maybe 1000 times safer than natural infection. only comparing deaths, maybe 2% mortality with delta variant (depends on median age of poplation)... | 02:41 |
| de-facto | MerlinMp[m], yes i assume so | 02:41 |
| nixonix | and how about vaccines, something like 1/1M for mrna, and 1/250k something for AZ | 02:41 |
| lastshell | Yeah for me was a math risk decision, better take the vaccine | 02:42 |
| nixonix | not to mention different long time or permanent damages from natural infection (without protection from vaccine) | 02:42 |
| lastshell | true long haulers and also covid is a cardiovascular not respiratory | 02:42 |
| MerlinMp[m] | nixonix: Wiat do you mean by "not have it"? | 02:42 |
| lastshell | many organs can be affected | 02:42 |
| MerlinMp[m] | * What do you mean by "not have it"? | 02:43 |
| nixonix | this doesnt have all the damages from infection, but clear enough comparison anyway: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.121.056135 | 02:43 |
| lastshell | https://www.immunology.org/coronavirus/connect-coronavirus-public-engagement-resources/covid-immunity-natural-infection-vaccine < here is also a good comparision | 02:43 |
| nixonix | "not have it" i dont know, did i say that? | 02:43 |
| nixonix | and picture from the link above: https://www.ahajournals.org/cms/asset/d56530c5-e05c-4187-ad9f-3426d75e7b4c/circulationaha.121.056135.fig02.jpg | 02:44 |
| lastshell | thats a good image nixonix benefits outweight the risks | 02:45 |
| Pawel[m]1 | Maybe we will come to some agreements on things maybe not. You guys seem like you know a thing or two. I would love to post some info here every now and then and you can then tell me what you think of it, what is right / wrong about it. Maybe we can have a discussion sometime too, if that's ok. If you feel I am disrupting your flow at any time, I will stop posting/discussing, totally fine by me. | 02:46 |
| nixonix | lastshell "I was thinking natural inmunity is better than vaccines (I'm vaccinated)" - we dont know for sure, and cant use that flawed israeli study for reasons i presented earlier | 02:46 |
| nixonix | it seems natural infection is stronger protection, if you got hospitalized from it. otherwise mrna is better, at least the first few months. how about later like 6-12 months, not known | 02:46 |
| nixonix | and not everybody get any protection from natural infection. with vaccines almost everybody does | 02:47 |
| lastshell | nixonix JC (John Cambell) in one video suggested that after been vaccinated maybe been exposed to delta also boost some antibodies | 02:47 |
| lastshell | because vax only mimic one spike protein but no all the proteins that covid has right ? | 02:48 |
| nixonix | yeah, probably, and maybe improves the quality of GC b-cell antibodies. another version of that "hybrid immunity", in reverse order | 02:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: As Vaccine Deadlines Approach, Hospitals Fear Staffing Shortages Will Occur: About a dozen states have vaccination mandates covering health care workers in hospitals, long-term care facilities — or both. → https://is.gd/IepYXT | 02:48 |
| nixonix | but there's a study that got mrna vaccines with 16 weeks dose interval better in neutralizing abs than natural immunity + one or two doses of mrna vaccines (not everybody wants to wait that long between doses, though) | 02:49 |
| Pawel[m]1 | Pawel[m]1: LjL: forgot to tag you in this reply, so there you go. | 02:49 |
| LjL | you're tagging yourself too O.o | 02:50 |
| lastshell | sadly I got my 2nd shot after 3 weeks only :( | 02:50 |
| dzho | which one? | 02:50 |
| dzho | I guess that's the Pfizer schedule | 02:50 |
| dzho | Moderna was 4 | 02:50 |
| lastshell | Pfizer | 02:51 |
| LjL | Pawel[m]1, ah you aren't tagging yourself, ugh, you're doing something that results in me on IRC not seeing that you're actually *quoting* yourself -.- this bridge is still annoying | 02:51 |
| MerlinMp[m] | <nixonix> "lastshell "I was thinking..." <- This can be tracked better in Pawel country - Poland, there is about 50% unvaxxed people which gives 18 milions potential reinfected | 02:51 |
| nixonix | and larger population too. but we would really need good testing like in denmark, common medical records country-wide (not good in federal govt countries), and lots of cases during the delta period. and large population | 02:53 |
| nixonix | no such study exists, yet anyway. good delta reinfection study | 02:53 |
| nixonix | and low vax coverage would make it easier | 02:53 |
| nixonix | k next time | 02:55 |
| MerlinMp[m] | <nixonix> "and larger population too. but..." <- Unfortunately the main and best stat is deaths rate if testing is poor and many people have small symptoms | 02:59 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Costa Rica: +4817 cases (now 525999), +88 deaths (now 6277), +97649 tests (now 2.4 million) since 2 days ago — Germany: +6185 cases (now 4.2 million) since 21 hours ago | 02:59 |
| lastshell | https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34248925/ (Vitamin D and exercise vs Covid) | 03:03 |
| LjL | hmmm i thought there was a recent "something" involving N-protein assays but not seeing it in the logs | 03:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID tweets: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Inconvenient truth #1The waning of vaccine effectiveness vs symptomatic infections for both Pfizer and Moderna across all age 20+ groups, presented at @CDCgov Advisory meeting last weekcdc.gov/vaccines/acip/… pic.twitter.com/M2g9FMdGYR → https://is.gd/RcmBKF | 04:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID tweets: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Inconvenient truth #2Transmission among fully vaccinated health care workers, with some asymptomatic individuals with higher viral loads than those with symptomspapers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cf…(not common, but it can occur) pic.twitter.com/9nY82yrb2u → https://is.gd/EIqnpv | 04:24 |
| jbwncster | https://www.wral.com/coronavirus/20-yo-uncw-student-dies-after-3-week-battle-with-covid/19898074/ | 04:33 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Mauritius: +230 cases (now 15391), +8 deaths (now 79) since 3 days ago | 04:39 |
| twomoon | thanks jbwncster | 04:39 |
| jbwncster | https://youtu.be/I6H7urz-HgA | 04:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Joe Biden gets COVID-19 booster shot after authorization → https://is.gd/ypegzU | 04:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: State Dept spokesman tests positive for Covid-19 after UNGA → https://is.gd/IDPDlB | 04:56 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Bermuda: +163 cases (now 5145), +10 deaths (now 62), +6460 tests (now 537509) since 3 days ago | 05:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID tweets: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): This change will likely accelerate the Pfizer vaccine EUA for children age 5-11, to be submitted this week.Dr. Peter Marks, now in charge, was the originator of Operation Warp Speed, and led the move to “all hands on deck”(finally) in July that led to full 💉approval in August → https://is.gd/TqK2f9 | 05:17 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: US COVID-19 cases drop for first time in 3 months → https://is.gd/M064fi | 05:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID tweets: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): We're about to break below 80,000 US covid hospitalizations, for the 1st time in over 6 weeks pic.twitter.com/PdjSmQa8Zk → https://is.gd/z0AsrN | 06:02 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for United Kingdom: +28132 cases (now 7.7 million), +31 deaths (now 136379) since 22 hours ago — Belgium: +4635 cases (now 1.2 million), +14 deaths (now 25568), +117123 tests (now 19.9 million) since 2 days ago — South Korea: +2289 cases (now 305842), +8 deaths (now 2464), +59638 tests (now 14.4 million) since a day ago — France: +1831 cases (now 7.0 million) since 22 hours ago | 06:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Rio Defies Bolsonaro, Joins Cities With Vaccine-Passport Mandate → https://is.gd/m50kV1 | 06:13 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Grenada: +168 cases (now 5005), +14 deaths (now 130) since 23 hours ago | 06:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: China defends visa curbs against stranded Indians, says it’s ‘appropriate’ to combat Covid-19 → https://is.gd/1fN5XS | 06:57 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Malaysia: Nearly 94% of adult population has received at least one vaccine dose → https://is.gd/ie3fjW | 07:09 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Mayotte, France: +37 cases (now 20242), +1 deaths (now 178) since 3 days ago — Switzerland: +2323 cases (now 835707) since 18 hours ago — New Caledonia, France: +194 cases (now 6379), +10 deaths (now 93) since a day ago — Lombardy, Italy: +136 cases (now 882560), +4 deaths (now 34026) since a day ago | 07:33 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Canada: +7739 cases (now 1.6 million), +36 deaths (now 27708), +301202 tests (now 43.0 million) since 10 hours ago | 08:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Health: With positive data on mRNA Covid vaccine, Sanofi sets its sights on other pathogens → https://is.gd/uW6pCO | 08:15 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for India: +18795 cases (now 33.7 million), +74 deaths (now 447049) since 15 hours ago | 08:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID tweets: Prof Francois Balloux (@BallouxFrancois): Setting aims that are impossible to achieve is well known to be demoralising and counterproductive. This message strikes me as highly problematic. I worry it may backfire by leading to reduced vaccine uptake in the US.dailycaller.com/2021/09/27/joe… → https://is.gd/l0CWo1 | 08:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | September 28, 2021: Please refer to our Wiki for more information on COVID-19 and our sub. You can find answers to frequently asked questions in our FAQ , where there is valuable information such as our: → https://is.gd/Kcs9Mk | 09:10 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Czechia: +668 cases (now 1.7 million), +74661 tests (now 38.0 million) since 23 hours ago | 09:37 |
| OutOfGum | https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/4600-doctors-scientists-accuse-covid-policymakers-crimes-against-humanity/ | 10:25 |
| OutOfGum | https://doctorsandscientistsdeclaration.org/ | 10:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: They suffered through Covid-19, and still don’t want the vaccine → https://is.gd/sppW2i | 10:30 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Macau: +3 cases (now 70) since 21 hours ago — India: +110 deaths (now 447085) since 17 hours ago | 10:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: AP News: Japan to lift all coronavirus emergency steps nationwide → https://is.gd/0gFtZm | 10:52 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for New Caledonia: +459 cases (now 6838), +8 deaths (now 101) since 9 hours ago — Slovakia: +1012 cases (now 409621), +10 deaths (now 12606), +11086 tests (now 3.6 million) since 23 hours ago — Estonia: +796 cases (now 154722), +5 deaths (now 1351), +6198 tests (now 1.9 million) since a day ago | 11:04 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Burundi: +1149 cases (now 17505) since 6 days ago — Poland: +976 cases (now 2.9 million), +29 deaths (now 75601), +46861 tests (now 20.8 million) since 23 hours ago | 11:29 |
| OutOfGum | https://www.schengen-visa.com/news/norway-removes-all-domestic-covid-19-restrictions-from-25-september-at-1600-local-time/ | 11:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express (Health): Destination of the week: Thailand cuts quarantine to 7 days ahead of November reopening → https://is.gd/znQLsz | 12:10 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Hong Kong: +13 cases (now 12210), +8388 vaccines (now 4.5 million) since 23 hours ago | 12:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from BioNTech: Pfizer and BioNTech Submit Initial Data to U.S. FDA From Pivotal Trial of COVID-19 Vaccine in Children 5 to <12 Years of Age: Formal submission to request Emergency Use Authorization to follow in the coming weeks NEW YORK and MAINZ, GERMANY, September 28, 2021 — Pfizer Inc. (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) announced they [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/S3ouq4 | 12:54 |
| Brainstorm | New from Johnson&Johnson: Johnson & Johnson Celebrates COVID-19 Vaccine Science Superheroes: Katalin Karikó, Ph.D. and Drew Weissman, M.D. Ph.D. Receive 2021 Dr. Paul Janssen Award for Uncovering Ways to Safely Use mRNAs in Vaccines and Therapeutics → https://is.gd/PdBpXP | 13:04 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Romania: +11049 cases (now 1.2 million), +208 deaths (now 36658), +73382 tests (now 12.7 million) since a day ago — Brunei: +273 cases (now 6813), +1 deaths (now 39), +4137 tests (now 344445) since 23 hours ago | 13:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Science: science: Smokers are 60%-80% more likely to be admitted to hospital with Covid-19 and also more likely to die from the disease compared with those who have never smoked, study finds. It contradicts research published at the start of the pandemic suggesting that smoking might help to protect against the virus → https://is.gd/NgduXu | 13:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Pfizer submits data for COVID-19 vaccine in younger children → https://is.gd/FiPIa0 | 14:30 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Switzerland: +1462 cases (now 836910) since 21 hours ago | 14:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: Pfizer Submits Favorable Initial Data To The FDA On Kids' COVID-19 Vaccine Trial: Pfizer and BioNTech say they plan to submit a formal request for emergency use authorization of their vaccine in young children "in the coming weeks." → https://is.gd/Nme2i8 | 14:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID tweets: Tom Wenseleers (@TWenseleers): Indeed, incredible how deadly the political polarization and the tribalism and anti-science that goes with it can be in the US. Over 170 000 vaccine-preventable Covid deaths in the US now since May (economist.com/graphic-detail…). First shots needed more than 3d boosters right now? [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/i76yxv | 15:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID tweets: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Our covid times :-)by @stephanpastis pic.twitter.com/LXX8ZnC7w2 → https://is.gd/u9IdY8 | 15:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID tweets: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): How did Portugal become the current #1 in the world fully vaccinated country at 83% of its total population?ft.com/content/1b9f5d… "Health experts attribute Portugal’s vaccination success to constructive co-operation between medics, the military and local officials." pic.twitter.com/mT5CFG8s2w → https://is.gd/TXGY5I | 15:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Pharma: STAT+: Pharmalittle: Sanofi ends work on mRNA Covid-19 vaccine; Biogen seeks fast FDA approval of another Alzheimer’s drug → https://is.gd/03L1wQ | 15:36 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Sweden: +1766 cases (now 1.2 million), +5 deaths (now 14826), +181316 tests (now 12.6 million) since 3 days ago — Gibraltar: +15 cases (now 5532), +1070 tests (now 359182) since a day ago — Faroe Is.: +13 cases (now 1140), +1000 tests (now 429000) since a day ago | 15:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID tweets: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): High vaccine effectiveness vs symptomatic infection in >200,000 teens in Israel (age 12-15) during its Delta wave wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27… pic.twitter.com/La7obbKL8A → https://is.gd/XXtAp4 | 15:58 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Nepal: +904 cases (now 793271), +12 deaths (now 11115), +11672 tests (now 4.2 million) since a day ago — Qatar: +94 cases (now 236482), +5577 tests (now 2.7 million) since a day ago | 16:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID tweets: Prof. Shane Crotty (@profshanecrotty): CDC/IDSA COVID-19 webinar on boosters decisions.I gave a 10’ COVID vaccine immunology summary.With FDA CBER Director Dr. Marks, VRBPAC members, and CDC vaccine expert Dr. Tromble. It was a pleasure to join! idsociety.org/multimedia/cli… → https://is.gd/oiNIdY | 16:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Says NBA Players Should Get Vaccinated Or Be Kicked Off The Team: The 2021-2022 NBA season is set to begin in a few weeks without a vaccine mandate for players. Instead, unvaccinated players will have to submit to regular testing. → https://is.gd/3WNd3h | 16:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: COVID in Israel: The 17% unvaccinated make up 60% of deaths this week → https://is.gd/8SbvrP | 17:03 |
| lastshell | In my current location cases are going down but death rate continue the same | 17:20 |
| lastshell | not sure what that means | 17:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID tweets: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): When your country makes the vaccines, did the clinical trials, and had enough vaccines for every person. But you're #48 on the listig.ft.com/coronavirus-va… pic.twitter.com/Oou9ayex1x → https://is.gd/XKXtjC | 17:25 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Bangladesh: +1310 cases (now 1.6 million), +31 deaths (now 27470) since a day ago — Chile: +431 cases (now 1.7 million), +4 deaths (now 37449), +32408 tests (now 21.7 million) since a day ago | 17:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from LitCovid: (news): [Economic headline: COVID-19 and the economy in Africa]. → https://is.gd/5dexiK | 17:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Long-term Sequelae of COVID-19 (Myalgic Encephalomyelitis): An International Cross-Sectional Study → https://is.gd/uAK7rT | 17:58 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for United Kingdom: +34520 cases (now 7.7 million), +1108527 tests (now 301.3 million) since 15 hours ago | 18:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID tweets: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Just published @ScienceMagazine A gene variant in the interferon pathway, our innate immunity, is associated with protection from severe Covid, missing in horseshoe bats, and has marked global variability with high prevalence in Africascience.org/doi/10.1126/sc…@virologist_atu pic.twitter.com/1IcKxA1l4F → https://is.gd/HYMbd5 | 18:09 |
| * Pawel[m]1 uploaded an image: (76KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/fNRAbCsHRBGXkDDTKqasQKmC/IMG_20210928_181300_080.jpg > | 18:13 | |
| Pawel[m]1 | Can I ask you guys, why don't safety trials pick things like this out? | 18:14 |
| LjL | mainly because you can realistically have up to 40000 or so people in one of those trials, half of which are placebo, and these myocarditis cases are rare than 1 in 20000, so statistically it's just not likely to happen in the trial | 18:18 |
| LjL | rarer* | 18:18 |
| specing | and even if it does, it's not statistically significant | 18:20 |
| LjL | specing, if it's a severe event though, it's likely to make FDA, CDC and international friends pay attention to that possibility immediately, instead of picking it up only from safety signals later | 18:21 |
| LjL | take Bell's palsy, i think it turned out not to be an actual concern, but there were more events than you'd be totally comfortably with in some of the trials | 18:25 |
| specing | Yes, but most cases of *carditis are mild | 18:25 |
| LjL | they were still compatible with natural occurrence | 18:25 |
| LjL | but it certainly resulted in FDA (etc) reports pointing it out and saying it should be closely monitored | 18:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID tweets: Trevor Bedford (@trvrb): For me, like others in the field, responding to the pandemic has been a ceaseless and exhausting endeavor. But I'm immensely proud of what the teams at @nextstrain, @fredhutch and the @seattleflustudy, as well as the larger scientific community, have accomplished. 2/4 → https://is.gd/xeOXvr | 18:31 |
| Pawel[m]1 | Actually nevermind.. one could say it didn't come up in the trial cause it was so rare.. nevermind :) | 18:35 |
| LjL | just so i know, does any of you remember 20% being the oft-cited rate of severe COVID (or hospitalization) during the early part of the pandemic in 2020, at least? i felt very certain that was the ballpark, and my channel logs seem to confirm we talked about it being the ballpark a lot, but last night after someone in another channel challenged it (with a pretty annoying and rude "Well, you did just make that number up, after all", which resulted in me staying | 18:36 |
| LjL | awake for 40 more minutes trying to find sources, but they all seemed to have disappeared from the web?! or was i always wrong in the first place, were we all when we discussed it?) | 18:36 |
| LjL | well, i started doubting everything again, and also in the logs i found myself quoting something, but that something was nowhere to be found on google | 18:36 |
| LjL | (except of course in the public channel logs!) | 18:36 |
| LjL | result: i'm feeling very sleepy and my amount of certainties about anything has gone down while it was already below danger levels | 18:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID tweets: Trevor Bedford (@trvrb): That said, it's difficult for me to sort out my feelings about these awards, as they are so intertwined with the pandemic. It feels perhaps uncomfortable to be professionally rewarded for doing something that felt like a moral imperative. 3/4 → https://is.gd/SoGE9h | 18:42 |
| de-facto | keep in mind that testing at the begin of 2020 was not nearly as widely use as in the later parts of the pandemic | 18:44 |
| LjL | yes, okay, i would have expected that to be the objection, but it would be nice if i could find any sources from 2020 to object to in the first place | 18:45 |
| LjL | or at least knowing that you or others remember that value, because i don't know, am i making things up? maybe i am | 18:45 |
| de-facto | that is CFR is highly dependent on testing in contrast to IFR that would require a representative measurement of the expectation value for seroprevalence per age group | 18:45 |
| ublx | mhm sounds like numbers that were supposed/feared in early 2020 before the mountain of asymptomatic courses were fully realised, ie 20% hospitalised of which 5% dead | 18:45 |
| LjL | the asymptomatic cases are still thought to be like 30-40% though (inbefore, that's also a number pulled out of my ass... no it isn't but don't make me prove it ;() | 18:46 |
| de-facto | but afaik if people would require invasive ventilation fatality rate among that subgroup still is extremely high, in the range of 50% or such | 18:46 |
| LjL | i even saw an 80% fatality rate in people requiring ventilation in some random study that i didn't pay attention to because i was googling "80%" to find the thing about the 20% severe cases, and not that | 18:48 |
| LjL | and i think i remember some other study where it said 50% is more like the immediate fatality rate, but if you follow that group up for a few months, it gets much higher :( | 18:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID tweets: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Uncoupling covid cases and deaths.In Southeast Asia's Delta wave, Singapore is now the only country with a notable rise in cases. It also is the country with the lowest death rate and has >80% of its total population vaccinated.@OurWorldInData pic.twitter.com/Issq9XXXKe → https://is.gd/D35KHf | 18:52 |
| ublx | 1 in 5 of those infected over 80 years old requiring hospitalisation, several hits from google using before:2020-05-01 | 18:56 |
| ublx | all probably pointing to the same study though | 18:57 |
| nixonix | is there a list of different degrees of mandatory rona vaccinations per country? | 19:05 |
| nixonix | i would like to compare effect of them to vaccine coverages | 19:05 |
| nixonix | that praised portugals high vaccine coverage - was it because vaccinations apparently were well accepted before rona at least in spain, and possibly in portugal too, or perhaps because both spain and portugal succeeded to get more eu doses earlier than eg we did | 19:07 |
| nixonix | or perhaps because different degrees of mandates were instated | 19:08 |
| nixonix | so officially there is no mandatory vaccination in portugal: "No. Employers cannot require compulsory vaccination. Vaccination is recommended but in no case mandatory" | 19:09 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Greenland: +6 cases (now 571), +978 tests (now 74723) since 2 days ago | 19:09 |
| nixonix | but apparently employers can find out if the employee is vaccinated or not: "Employees who refuse to vaccinate may be subject to additional health and safety measures to mitigate risks of infection" | 19:10 |
| nixonix | not actually voluntary imo: "Yes, employees can refuse to be vaccinated. In such a scenario, employers are required to adopt and impose to those employees, additional health and safety measures to mitigate risks of infection" | 19:11 |
| nixonix | "authorities have decided that Porto, Faro, Braga, Setubal and other Portuguese municipalities must step back into deconfinement and have the same rules that apply to the capital Lisbon | 19:12 |
| nixonix | "obligation to present the vaccination passport or a negative test in order to be able to go to the hotel or to the restaurant | 19:12 |
| nixonix | verdict: mandatory vaccinations seem to help to reach a good coverage (: | 19:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Side effect rates from a third Covid-19 vaccine dose similar to those after second shot, early data indicate: People who’ve received a third dose of a Covid-19 vaccine booster are reporting rates of side effects similar to those after the second dose, according to new CDC data. → https://is.gd/uabYEF | 19:14 |
| lastshell | https://www.foxnews.com/health/fully-vaccinated-michigan-couple-dies-from-covid-19-a-minute-apart-while-holding-hands-report.amp | 19:19 |
| lastshell | media alarmist, don't said what vaccine and when was administered the 2nd shot | 19:20 |
| nixonix | big news of today: sanofi has ditched its mrna vax project, which used unmodified nucleotides like curevac - which looks like a dead end then (pay kariko for use of pseudouridine) | 19:21 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.statnews.com/2021/09/28/with-positive-data-on-mrna-covid-vaccine-sanofi-sets-its-sights-on-other-pathogens/ | 19:21 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.statnews.com: With solid data on mRNA Covid vaccine, Sanofi looks to other pathogens | 19:21 |
| lastshell | in Israel 60% of the deaths are unvax https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/covid-in-israel-the-17-unvaccinated-make-up-60-of-deaths-this-week-1.10245471 | 19:22 |
| nixonix | Sanofi–Translate Bio COVID-19 vaccine also known as MRT5500 or VAW00001 is a COVID-19 vaccine candidate developed by Sanofi Pasteur and Translate Bio (they still have their adjuvanted vax) | 19:22 |
| lastshell | that means 40% is vaccinated I mean that's something but doesn't give me high hopes | 19:22 |
| nixonix | vast majority of those died are from age groups with very high vax coverage in israel. if vax coverage was 100%, everyone who dies would be vaxed | 19:24 |
| nixonix | their total vax percentage is lowish because 27% of population is <15 yo | 19:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Politics: The government’s Covid-19 response will continue in a shutdown, but health agencies will face major staff shortages → https://is.gd/cMyRNx | 19:24 |
| nixonix | you need to compare per age group (and preferably adjusted for other confounders too), because vax coverage varies per age | 19:25 |
| nixonix | .title https://datadashboard.health.gov.il/COVID-19/general (doesnt seem to work with google translate - if it has something that looks like "100-7", it means its per 100k) | 19:30 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From datadashboard.health.gov.il: ק×ר×× × - ××× ××§×¨× | 19:30 |
| nixonix | upper left corner, i think its cases by age-group, unvax, double-vax, and giga-vaxed - per 100k. tell me if you locate the same for hospitalizations | 19:32 |
| nixonix | or if you know how to get it to work with google translate (tried firefox and vivaldi) | 19:33 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Italy: +2962 cases (now 4.7 million), +65 deaths (now 130807) since 23 hours ago | 19:34 |
| nixonix | the second graph, next one to right from that cases graph, is "Severely ill" - also per 100k | 19:42 |
| nixonix | the one that is "Died daily - immunization status" (per 100k also) has: נפטרים יומי - מצב התחסנות | 19:44 |
| lastshell | giga-vaxxed what is that term means ? | 19:49 |
| lastshell | anyway I don't understand this language | 19:50 |
| nixonix | ah, the first graph isnt daily cases (the one by age-group), but "active patients", whatever the definition. you can switch the tick from it to show "Seriously ill", prob close to same than hospitalized. aka חולים קשה | 19:50 |
| nixonix | 3 doses currently | 19:50 |
| nixonix | with booster | 19:51 |
| nixonix | it looks like 3 doses has over 95% VE vs hospitalizations, or severe (some of it may also be due to shorter stay in hospital, so maybe not quite then) | 19:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from WebMD: Vaccine Mandates Takes Effect for NY Health Care Workers: As the state’s new vaccine mandate took effect, an estimated 70,000 out of 450,000 health care workers remain unvaccinated and out of compliance according to data released on Sept. 22. → https://is.gd/OLjHNw | 19:57 |
| nixonix | in that graph, VE vs severe doesnt look too bad with 2 doses (but far behind from 3 doses). but we dont know how recently those that only had 2 doses for some reason, got their vaxes. their earlier results showed it waning to 80% vs hospitalizations in 5 months or less, but it wasnt age stratified | 19:58 |
| nixonix | .title https://dpaste.com/6FM8FMEAL a small hebrew-english dictionary for https://datadashboard.health.gov.il/COVID-19/general | 20:11 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From dpaste.com: dpaste: hebrew_dict1.txt | 20:11 |
| Klinda | can you get the virus also in open place walking and meeting strangers? | 20:11 |
| Klinda | while you walk and you see that person 1 sec? | 20:12 |
| lastshell | Klinda depends how close u are with the strangers but outdoors is less risky | 20:12 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/outdoor-transmission-accounts-for-0-1-of-state-s-covid-19-cases-1.4529036 | 20:12 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.irishtimes.com: Outdoor transmission accounts for 0.1% of State’s Covid-19 cases | 20:12 |
| Klinda | I don't really realize all these infections were just in close places | 20:14 |
| Klinda | I mean milions milions of pepole just get infected in closed places? | 20:14 |
| Klinda | maybe at work? | 20:14 |
| nixonix | yup, inside almost all of them | 20:14 |
| nixonix | even in outdoor events, its mostly bathroom visits, at cash registers etc. like that suspected bondi junction outdoor transmission event, that was widely in australian media. when they found out, they met inside at cash register after all, media went silent | 20:16 |
| Klinda | so if you close all closed places we fix the problem | 20:16 |
| Klinda | we had lockdown too but there were still infections | 20:16 |
| nixonix | lockdowns are not that tight usually. like in sydney, those locked down suburbs, people still visited each others homes despite that it was banned | 20:17 |
| LjL | but they couldn't get more than two beers, or something | 20:18 |
| LjL | evidently beer carries COVID | 20:18 |
| nixonix | but they can soon dring when standing up, media said | 20:18 |
| Klinda | we are the only state Italy who get obbligatory the vaccine | 20:18 |
| Klinda | that* | 20:18 |
| Klinda | if you work you have to do that | 20:19 |
| nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/newscomauHQ/status/1442295909660823553 | 20:19 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: news.com.au (@newscomauHQ): "The NSW Premier has revealed when fully vaccinated residents will be able to have visitors at home and drink a beer while standing as a raft of new freedoms were [...] | 20:19 |
| nixonix | how awesome is that | 20:19 |
| Klinda | lmao | 20:19 |
| Klinda | but I also understand that other pepole are not nerds like ours | 20:19 |
| Klinda | I am fine at home, others no | 20:20 |
| Klinda | us* | 20:20 |
| LjL | 1) if you work you need to have a COVID certificate, that isn't the same as a vaccine, it can also be a recurrent rapid test if you really don't want the vaccine | 20:20 |
| Klinda | you will spend 22 euro with each test... | 20:20 |
| LjL | 2) most US employers are requiring their workers to be vaccinated now, it's definitely not just Italy | 20:20 |
| LjL | 3) children and people who don't work still don't have to get it, which you may argue is a technicality but there's clearly a difference between vaccines (or passes) for people who work and a mandate for *everyone* | 20:21 |
| Klinda | also in university is obbligatory | 20:21 |
| Klinda | I don't know if high school is obbligatory, maybe only for the personal that work | 20:22 |
| LjL | also "On Monday Greece also introduced mandatory weekly testing for public and private sector employees who will have to pay for weekly tests or carry a vaccination certificate to gain access to their place of work." | 20:22 |
| nixonix | here they are not even allowed to ask if employees have got vaxed. unless in hospital, if its high risk or something, they can ask, but they are not allowed to check, just trust the word of hc workers (who are used to lie about flu vax status, so prob doing the same with rona vax) | 20:22 |
| LjL | Greece is not Italy | 20:22 |
| LjL | https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/16/which-countries-enforcing-mandatory-covid-vaccination | 20:22 |
| LjL | why do people always think it's "only" their country doing something when the policies about this are really not all that different across places | 20:23 |
| LjL | "That would follow Indonesia, which announced mandatory vaccination in February, with potential hefty fines for those who do not comply." ← now that sounds mandatory in a mandatory way | 20:23 |
| Klinda | here is official, like after 15 th October if you don't get the vax you will not earn money at work | 20:24 |
| nixonix | guardian only mentions a few countries (and prob not that accurately, im guessing). theres a gray area, if its mandated or not, like in portugal | 20:24 |
| Klinda | I mean I am the first who get the vax cause I was scared of long term covid effects (I know pepole who can't smell after one year of getting the virus) | 20:26 |
| nixonix | yeah, fines or something, then its really mandated. but it can be almost or de-facto mandated (sorry for pinging, shouldda picked another nick (: ) | 20:26 |
| Klinda | or also cough a lot more etc | 20:26 |
| LjL | Biden's plan for the private sector: "For the private sector, the plan directs the Department of Labor’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration to develop an Emergency Temporary Standard (ETS) that will require all employers with at least 100 employees to ensure their workforce is fully vaccinated or else subjected to weekly COVID-19 testing before coming into work." (and for the public it's just mandatory vaccination period) that doesn't look ver | 20:27 |
| LjL | y different to me from mandatory vaccines for all workers | 20:27 |
| nixonix | was it singapore who just went from 2 to 3 weekly tests | 20:31 |
| nixonix | or schools somewhere.. england, scotland? | 20:31 |
| nixonix | finland removing all the remaining gathering restrictions on friday. only reduced bar hours remaining for the next couple weeks, at the highest prevalence areas (closing 12 pm). also reduced reporting of cases, so it wont look so bad... | 20:33 |
| LjL | all i know about singapore is their cases are skyrocketing | 20:34 |
| nixonix | national hc institute have pushed to reduce testing, quarantines in schools when cases found etc. their health security chief used to work with tegnell in sweden, under johan giesecke | 20:35 |
| nixonix | yeah, but thats the whole plan, it doesnt burn through kids by itself | 20:35 |
| nixonix | well, i mean it does, but not if you prevent it.... | 20:35 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Spain: +2290 cases (now 5.0 million), +60 deaths (now 86358) since 22 hours ago — Canada: +9726 cases (now 1.6 million), +54 deaths (now 27726) since 22 hours ago | 20:36 |
| nixonix | finland hasnt reported for testing numbers to owid for 10 days. all part of plan to make tegnell happy | 20:39 |
| nixonix | -for | 20:39 |
| Sky_Net | "Hey humanity. Here i invent bitcoin for you. Oh and you've got COVID-19. You can choose to have or not have both" - COVID-19 | 20:40 |
| Sky_Net | Would we trade off bitcoin for not happening of covid? | 20:41 |
| nixonix | we must infect kids quick, before EMA approves vaccines for 5-11 yo. pfizer just reported their kid trials to FDA. approval expected late october, and EMA to follow in couple of weeks prob | 20:41 |
| Sky_Net | Naybe kids have immune cells that is a cure! Cells the basic cells of body are trurly unimaginable | 20:42 |
| nixonix | .title https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/28/health/pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-ages-5-to-11/index.html | 20:42 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From edition.cnn.com: Pfizer/BioNTech submit initial data on Covid-19 vaccine for people ages 5 to 11 to FDA, but aren't seeking EUA yet - CNN | 20:42 |
| nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1441377423950557184 | 20:43 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Feigl-Ding (@DrEricDing): "📍Over 100 children have died from #COVID19, or ~3 children a day, in the last 5 weeks—20 died last week alone (@AmerAcadPeds data). This is on par with pediatric age<15 [...] | 20:43 |
| Arsanerit | worldwide? That's basically nobody. | 20:47 |
| Arsanerit | and if 100 died in the last five weeks then 20 dying in the last week is not too remarkable | 20:48 |
| nixonix | usa | 20:49 |
| Arsanerit | Ah, ok. Still: context needed to interpret those numbers. | 20:49 |
| nixonix | click the tweet open for context | 20:50 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.24.21264045v1 | 20:56 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.medrxiv.org: Non-invasive Vagus Nerve Stimulation for Respiratory Symptoms of COVID-19: Results From a Randomized Controlled Trial (SAVIOR I) | medRxiv | 20:56 |
| nixonix | nVNS therapy led to significant reductions in levels of inflammatory markers, specifically CRP and procalcitonin. Because nVNS has multiple mechanisms of action that may be relevant to COVID-19, additional research into its potential to be used earlier in the course of COVID-19 and possibly mitigate some of the symptoms associated with post-acute | 20:58 |
| nixonix | COVID-19 | 20:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: More pregnant women turned to cannabis in California amid COVID-19: Mary Van Beusekom | News Writer | CIDRAP News Sep 28, 2021 Of the women, 8.14% used cannabis in spring 2020, compared with 6.75% before the pandemic. → https://is.gd/m8q2pY | 21:02 |
| nixonix | are those links from virology chan available as logs or something? | 21:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from WebMD: Months Later, Some New Yorkers Are Still Banging Pots to Thank Frontline Workers: Eighteen months into the pandemic later, some New Yorkers are still saluting frontline and healthcare workers by cheering, singing, or banging pots and pans in their honor. → https://is.gd/ws1mJD | 21:13 |
| nixonix | "The results indicate that the combination of both high vaccination rate and low hesitancy leads to faster epidemic suppression" - brilliant! | 21:13 |
| lastshell | LjL I saw your comment of Singapore that doesn't give me hope | 21:16 |
| nixonix | i havent watched looker for awhile, but he used to go to window to cheer for hc or frontline workers, during the show. atlanta i think | 21:18 |
| nixonix | in singapore, the early epidemic was almost exclusively among foreign workers who lived in their dorm area. i dont know if it currently is, or is spread among population. anybody knows? | 21:20 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-58580337 | 21:24 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.bbc.com: Singapore migrant workers are still living in Covid lockdown - BBC News | 21:24 |
| lastshell | nixonix https://www.moh.gov.sg/ | 21:26 |
| lastshell | or https://www.moh.gov.sg/news-highlights/details/update-on-local-covid-19-(28-september-2021) | 21:27 |
| lastshell | it seems cases continue to go up | 21:27 |
| nixonix | ty. seems mostly foreing workers living in dorms, but also some other community spreading | 21:29 |
| nixonix | Foreign workers living in dormitories, where crowded living quarters provided ideal conditions for the virus to spread, account for roughly 80 percent of infections in Singapore since the outbreak began. But for months now, cases have been more evenly distributed in the community than last year. More than 90 percent of workers who live in | 21:31 |
| nixonix | dormitories are fully immunized — a higher percentage than the wider population | 21:31 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/09/10/singapore-coronavirus-migrant-workers/ https://archive.is/fzM4Q | 21:31 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.washingtonpost.com: Singapore plans to ease coronavirus restrictions on migrant workers - The Washington Post | 21:31 |
| nixonix | when cases go up, especially in schools - or you plan to execute the scorched childhood plan, you cut the information | 21:46 |
| nixonix | in singapore, wiki: From 8 September 2021, MOH will no longer report daily unlinked cases | 21:46 |
| nixonix | .title https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00405-021-06644-5 sounds safe. well, you never know if you dont try (at home)... | 21:52 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From link.springer.com: A sprayable Acid-Oxidizing solution containing hypochlorous acid (AOS2020) efficiently and safely inactivates SARS-Cov-2: a new potential solution for upper respiratory tract hygiene | SpringerLink | 21:52 |
| nixonix | "Delta VOC increased hospitalization risk in children under 10 by a factor of 2.5 (adjusted odds ratio, 95% confidence interval: 1.2 to 5.1) compared to non-VOC. For most VOC-outcome combinations there was no heterogeneity in adverse outcomes by age. | 22:04 |
| nixonix | However, there was an inverse relationship between age and relative increase in risk of death with delta VOC, with younger age groups showing a greater relative increase in risk of death than older individuals. Interpretation: SARS-CoV-2 VOCs appear to be associated with increased relative virulence of infection in all age groups, though low | 22:04 |
| nixonix | absolute numbers of outcomes in younger individuals make estimates in these groups imprecise | 22:04 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.25.21264097v1 by david fisman et al. angry critique prob expected | 22:05 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.medrxiv.org: Age-Specific Changes in Virulence Associated with SARS-CoV-2 Variants of Concern | medRxiv | 22:05 |
| TurboTech | Good afternoon guys. Last night a study on Vitamin D was added to google scholar. They are usually 3 days behind. It was not a controlled trial but the data scientists went through Vitamin D to the molecular level. There is a ton to unpack in this but it is a good read. This is what I was wanting to write. | 22:18 |
| TurboTech | .title https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pro.4190 | 22:18 |
| Brainstorm | TurboTech: From onlinelibrary.wiley.com: Vitamin D and COVID‐19: A Review on the Role of Vitamin D in Preventing and Reducing the Severity of COVID‐19 Infection - Abdrabbo - - Protein Science - Wiley Online Library | 22:18 |
| de-facto | btw TurboTech what was your recommended dose again? | 22:19 |
| TurboTech | Where do you live? | 22:19 |
| de-facto | South of Germany | 22:19 |
| de-facto | 50 | 22:19 |
| TurboTech | 50 paralell | 22:19 |
| dzho | oof, that Wiley title | 22:20 |
| TurboTech | How much do you weigh? | 22:20 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.22.21263977v1?rss=1 | 22:20 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.medrxiv.org: COVID-19 mortality risk correlates inversely with vitamin D3 status, and a mortality rate close to zero could theoretically be achieved at 50 ng/ml 25(OH)D3: Results of a systematic review and meta- [...] | 22:20 |
| dzho | > Herein, we present a thorough review focusing on the possible molecular mechanism by which vitamin D could alter host cell redox status and block viral entry, thereby preventing COVID-19 infection or reducing the severity of the disease. | 22:20 |
| dzho | "possible" and "could" | 22:20 |
| de-facto | uhm 90-100kg or such | 22:20 |
| TurboTech | 5000 iu daily. | 22:21 |
| TurboTech | understand dzho | 22:21 |
| TurboTech | I said it was not a clinical trial | 22:21 |
| de-facto | nixonix found above paper with the remark to remind you of it when you were offline | 22:22 |
| TurboTech | Yes, I read that paper | 22:22 |
| TurboTech | two days ago | 22:22 |
| TurboTech | I am constantly on scholar searching every few hours. | 22:23 |
| TurboTech | In November I will move to taking 5000 iu one day and the next day taking 10,000 and just alternating. | 22:23 |
| TurboTech | Vitamin D synthesis from the sun after Sept here on the 34th paralel is not enough to keep me at 55 ng/mL while taking 5000 iu daily. | 22:25 |
| de-facto | whats your weight? | 22:25 |
| TurboTech | 175# | 22:25 |
| TurboTech | so what 77 kilos | 22:25 |
| de-facto | ah so 80kg or such | 22:25 |
| de-facto | wow and you take 5k IU for how long? | 22:26 |
| TurboTech | all year | 22:27 |
| lastshell | I take sometimes 5k but no all day, TurboTech thats for people who live in the north ? | 22:28 |
| TurboTech | I live in the south | 22:31 |
| TurboTech | My level fell from 59 ng/mL to 48 ng/mL from August to Nov. While taking 5000 iu daily. I went to 10,000 daily for two months and my level topped at 72 ng/mL I then went down to 5000 again. I would have to think that by March at 5000 iu daily I would have dropped even more. My calcium was very stable. | 22:33 |
| specing | is that mortality with vaccine or without? | 22:33 |
| specing | TL;DR | 22:33 |
| de-facto | how about buying an artificial sun and roast under UV light? | 22:35 |
| de-facto | not too much of course to not increase risk of skin cancer | 22:35 |
| TurboTech | You can do that but you may roast your skin. | 22:35 |
| de-facto | but balanced | 22:35 |
| TurboTech | Just don't point it on your butthole. LOL | 22:35 |
| de-facto | mercury something, with the right wavelength filters | 22:35 |
| de-facto | lol | 22:35 |
| TurboTech | (that is from yesterdays discussion if you where not here) | 22:36 |
| de-facto | yeah but that would be the "natural" way to get VitD3 | 22:36 |
| TurboTech | I am not worried about it. | 22:36 |
| de-facto | i think i would even prefer that because vitamin d3 probably is not the only photochemistry going on with sun | 22:41 |
| de-facto | but i dont know details, such a guess | 22:41 |
| specing | TurboTech: actually, given that your butt and groin areas are the only ones not exposed during sunbathing... yes, totally point it on your butthole | 22:42 |
| TurboTech | Sunshine also increases Nitric Oxide | 22:53 |
| TurboTech | That is very important. | 22:53 |
| nixonix | first time in the same study that compares neut abs (instead of just binding). vs pseudovirus, not in live cell culture. confirms that moderna with 4 weeks interval is clearly stronger than pfizer with 3 weeks: | 22:57 |
| nixonix | The neutralizing titers were highest in the mRNA recipients (median ID50 of 1141 (Alpha), 482 (Beta), 1067 (Gamma), 694 (Delta) for BNT162b2 recipients and 2388 (Alpha), 625 (Beta), 2014 (Gamma), 1520 (Delta) for mRNA-1273 recipients), compared to the AZD1222 recipients (median ID 50 of 143 (Alpha), <100 (Beta), <100 (Gamma), <100 (Delta)), and the | 22:57 |
| nixonix | Ad26.COV2.S recipients (median ID50 of <100 (Alpha), <100 (Beta), <100 (Gamma), <100 (Delta) | 22:57 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.27.21264163v1 | 22:57 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.medrxiv.org: Four SARS-CoV-2 vaccines induce quantitatively different antibody responses against SARS-CoV-2 variants | medRxiv | 22:57 |
| nixonix | interestingly the difference was small vs beta (SA variant, 1.351). but a bit over double vs delta. anyway, despite large confidence intervals, lookin across variants, it looks clear enough for me | 23:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: Pfizer submits data to FDA on COVID vaccine in young kids: Stephanie Soucheray | News Reporter | CIDRAP News Sep 28, 2021 Pfizer and BioNTech say an application for emergency use authorization in kids 5 to 11 years old will likely follow. → https://is.gd/MQcRBg | 23:03 |
| nixonix | waning rate was very similar between them, according to that another study. so using those dose intervals, it looks like moderna gives around 2 months longer protection (circulating neut ab wise, that prob dominate during the first few months vs infection) | 23:04 |
| de-facto | 70 days half life for mrna? | 23:04 |
| nixonix | for pfizer neutralization wise half-life was 68 days (titer-wise around 50 i think). for moderna it was about the same | 23:05 |
| de-facto | i still wonder if residual b-cells will wane at another rate, hence if ab titers are the sum of a fast and a slow decaying exponential | 23:06 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03647-4 | 23:08 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.nature.com: SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells in humans | Nature | 23:08 |
| nixonix | there are lots of different types of b-cells. somehow neutralization half-life is longer, despite that they obv use circulating titers, not those that proliferating memory b-cells will produce with delay (and dont have time to prevent actual infection, but the severe symptoms) | 23:09 |
| de-facto | nixonix, crazy idea: maybe the delay between primer and booster could influence how many of the fast decaying and how many of the slow decaying antibody factories are contributing ? | 23:09 |
| nixonix | those bone marrow cells should continually secrete small amounts of antibodies, and for long time. but because they are not in germinal centers, i dont think they will mature | 23:10 |
| nixonix | apparently they have some use, for some viruses, because they exist. but i wouldnt count on them helping much, just adding something when the adaptive response have waned for several months or more | 23:11 |
| de-facto | hmm dont they come out and replicate once the antigen is seen again? | 23:12 |
| de-facto | e.g. "take the recipe from library and ramp up production fast"? | 23:13 |
| nixonix | whole the dynamics of re-exposure isnt well understood, there are different cytokines and different types of b-cells with a bit different combination of surface proteins, and it varies with viruses and severity of infection | 23:13 |
| nixonix | apparently double negative type 1 b-cells that have cxcr5 receptor for follicular dendritic cell excreting cytokines are the key, or thats how it seems to me | 23:15 |
| nixonix | but its also about formation of new germinal centers, that might be worse among those with severe condition - despite that they will have stronger circulating ab response | 23:17 |
| nixonix | if that is so, then those hospitalized are better protected for the first few months than those with less severe, but still systematic infection, but it might be reversed after longer period | 23:17 |
| nixonix | and its about follicular t-cells too, similarly those with cxcr5 receptors | 23:19 |
| nixonix | bone marrow b-cells? i dont know much about them. and it seems currently nobody knows much about them, deducing from that bone marrow b-cell paper, linked here too awhile ago. and even less when induced by vax instead of natural infection | 23:21 |
| nixonix | *systemic | 23:24 |
| nixonix | theres couple of new papers. i was planning to read more before pasting the links, and possibly waiting for turbo to have some time to chat about them, but... anybody knows an immunologist who would be willing to come here and hang with us? | 23:35 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.25.21264117v1 | 23:35 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.medrxiv.org: Lasting changes to circulating leukocytes in people with mild SARS-CoV-2 infections | medRxiv | 23:36 |
| nixonix | that paper adds to knowledge from some other papers that are referenced, and i havent read. i will have to look at a few of them some day, and return to the subject | 23:45 |
| nixonix | it makes the difference between mild and severe infection. unfortunately lots of the content are something im not very familiar with, and less about things essential for germinal center formation and b-cell maturing (afaik) | 23:48 |
| nixonix | no difference in cd8+ killer t-cells between severity groups | 23:50 |
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