| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Vaccinated hospital patients outpace the unvaccinated, but it doesn't mean the shots don't work: experts → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/ryk66a/vaccinated_hospital_patients_outpace_the/ | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| de-facto | well those distancing rules only apply for spitting into each others faces, not so much for accumulating aerosol, i think noone would assume a cigarette is not smell-able from 2m away | 00:02 |
| de-facto | hence imho such studies quantifying the *relative* protection (in form of an upper boundary) for different scenarios (masks, airtight fits, exposure times etc) make most sence to me, because they allow for quantitative statements such as X-fold reduction by this and that | 00:04 |
| LjL | Brainstorm: New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Canadian passengers partied maskless on a charter flight to Mexico. Airlines are refusing to fly them home. → https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/ryj075/canadian_passengers_partied_maskless_on_a_charter/ | 00:04 |
| de-facto | i wont even start to rant about airtravel passengers again: its quite simple, people are WAY too stupid to be trusted with something like intercontinental traveling, therefore it must be ended without quarantine terminally. | 00:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from Ars Technica: Science: CDC head talks screwups, 4th doses, omicron’s wave in long-awaited briefing → https://arstechnica.com/ | 00:10 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Spain: +242440 cases (now 7.2 million), +97 deaths (now 89934) since 2 days ago — Brazil: +54900 cases (now 22.5 million), +92 deaths (now 619822) since 22 hours ago — Ethiopia: +2163 cases (now 442187), +7 deaths (now 7012), +7654 tests (now 4.2 million, 28.3% positive today) since a day ago — Guatemala: +1839 cases (now 635613), +1 deaths (now 16118) since 9 hours ago | 00:15 |
| LjL | Milan's public transport company has sent us an email saying they have to cut rides because 650 of their personnel are quarantined | 00:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Quebec’s cannabis, liquor stores to require coronavirus vaccination proof → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rykqf8/quebecs_cannabis_liquor_stores_to_require/ | 00:30 |
| de-facto | there it starts, this is only the very begin of the Omicron crisis | 00:30 |
| de-facto | public transport is infrastructure but maybe not as essential as hospital, firefighters, police etc | 00:32 |
| LjL | I know | 00:35 |
| LjL | But also it means people taking public transport will be in even more crowded spaces | 00:35 |
| LjL | I've heard in some places (not in italy elsewhere) nurses who are covid positive are already working anyway | 00:36 |
| de-facto | that is a big problem, especially because in hospitals there are vulnerable people already in need for medical attention even without covid | 00:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Long COVID could become Finland's largest chronic disease, warns minister → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/ryl76o/long_covid_could_become_finlands_largest_chronic/ | 00:49 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Argentina: +110533 cases (now 6.1 million), +42 deaths (now 117428), +191811 tests (now 29.0 million, 57.6% positive today) since a day ago — Colombia: +26190 cases (now 5.3 million), +59 deaths (now 130250), +122242 tests (now 30.2 million, 21.4% positive today) since a day ago — Bulgaria: +5524 cases (now 775525), +96 deaths (now 31471) since 22 hours ago [... want %more?] | 01:05 |
| LjL | Even Finland is doing so bad with Omicron | 01:07 |
| LjL | I hope the long covid fears get to people | 01:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: 3 sent on leave in suspected vaccine sabotage → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rylnuu/3_sent_on_leave_in_suspected_vaccine_sabotage/ | 01:08 |
| LjL | It's awful to hope people get terrified but... they should be? | 01:08 |
| LjL | Although I don't know why we put all cards on these vaccines, since they help, sure, but if they just reduce long covid by half, and Omicron infects everyone, that's still going to be unimaginable | 01:09 |
| de-facto | the vaccines work to prevent severe progressions, but i dont think they can replace quarantine in terms of preventing new infections | 01:12 |
| de-facto | so a decision to cancel quarantine for vaccinated is a decision that leads to a lockdown for everyone | 01:13 |
| de-facto | because it decides against concentrating containment on the identified carriers (those that tested positive or were in contact with them) | 01:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Florida reports one of its highest totals for coronavirus cases in a single day → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/ryly8u/florida_reports_one_of_its_highest_totals_for/ | 01:17 |
| de-facto | why would we even test people if it does not lead to preventing them from infecting others? | 01:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Omicron Symptoms: Kids Who Get COVID at Higher Diabetes Risk → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rym3ln/omicron_symptoms_kids_who_get_covid_at_higher/ | 01:27 |
| Tuvix | de-facto: Nice find on the article on masks & distancing. And sure, both positivei cases and their known near-contacts need to be taking more action, but I've seen firsthand how that just doesn't happen. It's "inconvenient" and "asks too much" of people, or whatever the claim is to not require it against medical advice :\ | 01:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Florida sets new 1-day record for COVID-19 cases as hospitalizations of young children soar in US → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rym7sg/florida_sets_new_1day_record_for_covid19_cases_as/ | 01:36 |
| finely[m] | <de-facto> "why would we even test people if..." <- So we can forecast when our hospital systems collapse :( | 01:37 |
| finely[m] | NSW positivity rate now 38.6% | 01:37 |
| Tuvix | JHU's latest update on US daily hospital admissions (actually a 7-day avearge of those) has now hit an all-pandemic high. https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailycases_newhospitaladmissions | 01:44 |
| de-facto | sorry i am a bit frustrated today, its just because its going to be rough for a while now | 01:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: South African hospital sees less serious disease, coming end of Omicron surge. → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rymj93/south_african_hospital_sees_less_serious_disease/ | 01:46 |
| de-facto | and that is perfectly predictable as Omicron seems to stay on trajectory with mathematical precision | 01:46 |
| critr | you guys have my sympathies and respect, de-facto | 01:46 |
| Tuvix | SCOTUS may be poised to reject a ruling on the White House vaccination requriement on big business. As I undersatnd it, that's almost going against the prior caselaw set in Jacobson v Mass. | 01:46 |
| lastshell | how bad is going to be the next 3 weeks in US ? | 01:46 |
| xx | bad | 01:47 |
| xx | extrapolating from current numbers, assuming all/most of that is omicron, and taking into account the new year's mess, it will get much much worse soon | 01:47 |
| lastshell | I guess next 3 weeks I will bunker down | 01:48 |
| Tuvix | Just the fact that the hospital rate (the speed at which hospitals are admitting new pateints nation-wide in the US) has now *exceeded* that before we had vaccines, is scary. | 01:48 |
| de-facto | heh nice graph Tuvix :) with two y-axes :D | 01:48 |
| Tuvix | Now, _maybe_ we get lucky and it's just really bad for a few (3? 6?) weeks, but what's to stop this from happening again if we don't work to stop it? | 01:48 |
| Tuvix | de-facto: heh, yea, that's one of my reference graphs now just since it can show cases and some other more "useful" metric. Cases aren't the whole story, but those hospital admits are coming from somewhere of course. | 01:49 |
| de-facto | but yeah looks similar to the graph from UK, where hospitalizations seem to follow closely the daily new infections with about 10 days delay | 01:49 |
| critr | i suspect things will get increasingly worse and worse for the foreseeable future. | 01:49 |
| lastshell | yikes, I assume after omicron things will get better | 01:50 |
| de-facto | didnt we assume similar about Delta? | 01:50 |
| Tuvix | Right, but I also point out that we never really "recovered" from delta. That same graph shows (and it shows it for the 7-day death incidence too if you change that metric) that we never got back to pre-delta levels, "after the delta surge" | 01:50 |
| critr | yes, just like things would get better after 2020. | 01:50 |
| lastshell | how we socialize or have life in the future ? | 01:50 |
| lastshell | this can be a big social/mental problem in the long term | 01:51 |
| de-facto | this is a big problem, hospitalizations following cases closely, its what i feared and why i refused to believe "Omicron is mild" | 01:51 |
| Tuvix | lastshell: Heh, see my prior statement, but check out that CDC graph I linked, then switch the right-axis display to "7-day deaths per 100k" and see how we never really "got bettter" as you put it. We just got slightly less bad. | 01:51 |
| de-facto | it obviously is able to put very significant load on hospitalizations | 01:51 |
| lastshell | this is sad | 01:51 |
| finely[m] | The silver lining of rapid Omicron spread is the peak should be soon. | 01:51 |
| Tuvix | And if Omicron was "so mild" (it's not, especially in the unvaccinated) and if Delta had "peaked and was in decline" you wouldn't see that flat rate of death after, not to mention the lack of decline of death. | 01:52 |
| Tuvix | Consider this as well: after the initial wave back a year ago (the Dec-Feb surge) we saw death fall off sharply, going to 50% of peak, and then 25% of peak, each within 1 month. | 01:52 |
| Tuvix | It's taken twice that time for deaths after the US mid-summer Delta peak to fall, and then never fell _back_ to pre-delta levels. | 01:52 |
| de-facto | hopefully Pfizers Paxlovid can take some load off hospitalizations by letting people stay at home for treatment, at least some of them | 01:53 |
| Tuvix | Any bit helps, but I don't think any one of these things by itself is going to be enough. | 01:53 |
| lastshell | I assume 2022 will be a good year, but now I'm not very optimistic | 01:53 |
| de-facto | its not a game changer of course | 01:53 |
| de-facto | the summer probably will be good | 01:54 |
| de-facto | this wave will get rough though | 01:54 |
| finely[m] | Delta would still be circulating in many places too. | 01:54 |
| Tuvix | And with SCOTUS poised to effectively reverse a prior ruling and say "despite the emergency we have, governemtn isn't allowed to require basic levels of public health for the common good" I don't know how much more we can get in meaningful requirements. We'll be left with more "guidance" and what you "should" do. | 01:54 |
| lastshell | so right now we are still with some delta and more omicron cases in US right ? | 01:54 |
| Tuvix | Well, summer started in 2021 fine too, but then Omicron came. | 01:54 |
| Tuvix | Omicron hit around Aug, and the curve on death ticked up and never really flattened out. | 01:55 |
| Tuvix | Sorry, Delta around Aug. | 01:55 |
| lastshell | yeah deaths are flat but not going down | 01:55 |
| Tuvix | lastshell: Yes, as of last week, my state (WI) was still seeing about half its cases Delta. | 01:55 |
| Brainstorm | New from Gazzetta Ufficiale italiana: DECRETO-LEGGE 7 gennaio 2022, n.1 (Raccolta 2022): Misure urgenti per fronteggiare l'emergenza COVID-19, in particolarenei luoghi di lavoro, nelle scuole e negli istituti della formazionesuperiore. (22G00002) → http://www.gazzettaufficiale.it/eli/id/2022/01/07/22G00002/SG | 01:56 |
| lastshell | I guess i need to step up my ppe equipment just incase | 01:56 |
| Tuvix | Our hospitals are not doing fantastic here, especially in my region. Here we just accepted some (I don't know how many offhand) aid from the national governemtn for healthcare worker support. | 01:57 |
| lastshell | where I am they added more covid test we have a wave of cases (NV/Vegas) | 01:57 |
| lastshell | I don't like how things are looking | 01:58 |
| lastshell | besides the pfizer/merk pill do we have somethign new that help covid patients ? | 01:59 |
| Tuvix | Vaccines, which are "new" to those who haven't taken them. | 01:59 |
| lastshell | do we have now the omicron vaccine ? | 02:00 |
| Tuvix | Regulations, which the high court seems ready to reject. | 02:00 |
| de-facto | Omicron specific vaccnes probably will become available in March/April, so MUCH too late for this gigantic wave | 02:01 |
| lastshell | what about the nasal spray | 02:02 |
| de-facto | most countries see a almost vertical line (in comparison to their previous increases) | 02:02 |
| Raf[m] | So after getting boosters we need to start getting omicron vaccines? | 02:02 |
| lastshell | I recall was some work on that | 02:02 |
| Raf[m] | de-facto: Agreed | 02:02 |
| de-facto | even AU https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/australia/ | 02:03 |
| lastshell | yikes | 02:03 |
| Tuvix | Raf[m]: The major vaccines (at least Pfizer/Moderna here in the US) seem to still provide good protection, especially from severe disease in Omicron. Yes, breakthrough cases are more common, and yes, an Omicron specific retooling seems likely if this remains an ongoing threat. | 02:03 |
| de-facto | gigantic mistake for them to open up traveling | 02:04 |
| lastshell | the issue is people are also fed up of lockdowns and restrictions they assume the goverment want to control them | 02:04 |
| Tuvix | Travel is one of the (many :( ) reasons I'm avoiding this sports club. People come from sometimes 300-400 km away (most a bit closer, probably within 100-150 km) and stay in a small clubhouse, often overnight. | 02:05 |
| Tuvix | Even though that's just _regional_ travel, the amount of air you're sharing, and a number of unvaccinated club members, makes it a risky situation if you don't like the exposure odds. | 02:05 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Mayotte: +3463 cases (now 28134) since 2 days ago — Norway: +6160 cases (now 434896) since 23 hours ago — Uruguay: +6104 cases (now 437062), +2 deaths (now 6188), +23867 tests (now 4.5 million, 25.6% positive today) since 23 hours ago — Costa Rica: +3153 cases (now 584547), +2 deaths (now 7372) since 23 hours ago | 02:07 |
| lastshell | I'm just watching again the bill gates the next outbreak we're not ready | 02:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Hospitalizations skyrocket in kids too young for COVID shots → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/ryn4jj/hospitalizations_skyrocket_in_kids_too_young_for/ | 02:15 |
| xx | I was ready | 02:18 |
| Tuvix | I'd be more interested to keep an eye on the rate of severe illness and death in the young, and how full the pediatric care and ICU beds are vs. just cases alone. | 02:19 |
| de-facto | in UK its the young that get hospitalized | 02:19 |
| Tuvix | This CDC data-set is good to do that if you set up a visualization to target the deaths of age groups of interest: https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-by-Sex-and-Age/9bhg-hcku | 02:20 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/hospitals | 02:20 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.ons.gov.uk: Coronavirus (COVID-19) latest insights - Office for National Statistics | 02:20 |
| de-facto | for stats on Omicron related deaths its probably still too early | 02:20 |
| Tuvix | Yea, our oldest 2 age groups are getting less impacted by death, is one of the take-aways here as well; it's trending younger, presumably as the mostly-working-age folks and younger get "back to normal" including letting down their guard for mitigations. | 02:21 |
| Tuvix | Yes, this is really not Omicron-specific, but does suggest that comparing Delta and pre-Delta, that vaccinations have helped. | 02:21 |
| de-facto | its a capital mistake to not take Omicron serious | 02:21 |
| Tuvix | Yup, despite 3 doses of Pfizer I still do my best to avoid unnecessary gatherings (epecially the more risky ones, without masks and with mixed-vaccination people and without pre-testing.) | 02:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Provinces in Canada could make vaccination mandatory, says federal health minister → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/rynauo/provinces_in_canada_could_make_vaccination/ | 02:24 |
| Tuvix | I should take tons of photos next time I go shopping; not even half the people here wear masks, despite local guidance suggesting it. | 02:24 |
| Tuvix | The 3 age-groups for 30-39, 40-49, and 50-64 (so, working age, or maybe a bit of the recently-retired) are a notably larger percentage of the death cases in the last 3 months than they were in Oct-Dec 1 year ago, in winter 2020-21. | 02:26 |
| Tuvix | (US-specific) | 02:26 |
| LjL | i don't suppose anyone would mind if i remove the totals from Brainstorm's updates? | 02:31 |
| LjL | at this point in the pandemic i don't care how many total cases we've had, i care about the daily additions | 02:31 |
| spybert | Tuvix: Which state is that? Here in California you can't go anywhere without a mask | 02:32 |
| LjL | and it would make the message a bit more lightweight which i think some here would appreciate | 02:32 |
| Tuvix | spybert: Wisconsin, which has weak guidance at the state and (most) local levels; it's all "guidance" and "recommendations" and what you "should" do. | 02:32 |
| Tuvix | I forgot that 31-Dec was the new-year holday for many workers and went shopping early afternoon. It was _packed_ and I'd say 20% (maybe fewer) had masks on. | 02:33 |
| spybert | Tuvix: Darn, they need to do better than that. Here a lot of places check vax cards at the door. | 02:33 |
| Tuvix | Oh, I could go to any of 4 indoor bars in walking distance of me to drink for as many hours as I wanted, and no vaccination, masks, or anything would be requested of me. | 02:33 |
| Tuvix | I'd probably get weird looks if I went in wearing a mask (I obviously don't go to bars currently) | 02:34 |
| Tuvix | Mask wearing declined here quite notably in mid-summer when this state followed the CDC's ill-presented guidance that the vaccinated could go maskless, but the unvaccinated should still wear them. The unvaccinated realized they could just stop and no one would question it. | 02:35 |
| critr | or just stay home and soak a mask with everclear. kill two birds with one stone. | 02:35 |
| spybert | What's really interesting though is tha the covid death toll per 100,000 people is the some for our states :)) | 02:35 |
| Tuvix | Sure, but they're not really at the bar for the liquor; it's the social aspect. | 02:35 |
| spybert | https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=California;Wisconsin&byPopulation=yes&legacy=no | 02:36 |
| spybert | you might need toclick "alternate data source" to get that to work. | 02:37 |
| Tuvix | Worked well initially; interesting change in the infection rates recently anyway. Both states ticked up in the death-incidence, but WI has a more pronounced uptick than CA, which is very mild around the Jul/Aug mark when Delta hit. | 02:39 |
| Tuvix | Nation-wide that bend in uptick is quite notable, but in CA it's more subtle. | 02:40 |
| spybert | I guess all that masking and vaxxing is doing some good after all. | 02:41 |
| Tuvix | Smaller showing of ICU patients in for COVID as well: https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/hospitalization-7-day-trend/california | 02:41 |
| spybert | luckily omicron is less lethal than the delta variant. | 02:42 |
| Tuvix | it's really too early to say about that, in particular in the unvaccinated and at-risk populations. And if we're talking total number of deaths, Omicron could well be worse in the short-term (next 4-8 weeks) given the surge in cases. | 02:43 |
| spybert | sure, it's very good at finding the unvaxxed | 02:44 |
| Tuvix | Vaccinated too given the case-incidence, but they're far less likely to have serious outcomes, and even less likely to need ICU care for it. | 02:45 |
| critr | cali guy here. i don't go out that much, but when i do i see almost everyone wearing a mask. | 02:45 |
| Tuvix | Yea, that's just the socially responsible thing to do. I got my booster mid-Nov, and (besides 3 others I saw waiting for boosters) no one in line at the pharmacy desk was vaccinated. | 02:46 |
| Tuvix | I had my high-quality TPU-fitting 98%+ 0.1 micron mask on, but it's still weird to go to a pharmacy (or that part of the store anyway, this was a Walgreens) and see so many maskless. | 02:47 |
| critr | i think most places won't even let you in without a mask here. | 02:48 |
| Tuvix | That's rare around here, even in stores that have "masks required" signs. Usually that just means, in practice, "we require all of our employees to have masks and wouldn't you please possibly consider maybe putting yours own?" | 02:49 |
| spybert | Even before covid I was tempted to wear an N95 mask when going to the pharmacy. After all, most of the people there are sick | 02:49 |
| Tuvix | on* | 02:49 |
| spybert | critr: In CA its the law | 02:50 |
| critr | back in 2020 the cali governor was the first prominent politician in the country to jump hard on covid. at least that i remember. | 02:51 |
| spybert | One thing my wife noticed is that there are a lot of vaccinated people getting positive test results while asymptomatic. | 02:52 |
| critr | could be false positives or something worse. | 02:52 |
| Tuvix | Right, break-through is far more common with Omicron than prior varients. For the antigen tests (especially the "rapid tests" including at-home ones) false-negatives are more common, but false-positives are rare. | 02:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Italy extends COVID vaccine mandate to everyone over 50 → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rynzn0/italy_extends_covid_vaccine_mandate_to_everyone/ | 02:53 |
| spybert | They aren't getting sick. So the vaccines definitely help with that. | 02:53 |
| Tuvix | In other words, if it tests positive on an antigen test, you're very likely congagious, but that also means that more effective guidance and rules around socializing are needed | 02:53 |
| Tuvix | Yes, absolutely, vaccines remain very good at preventing one to need medical care or suffering more serious short-term effects. Some studies are showing a potential measurable reduction in effects weeks/months after infection too. | 02:54 |
| LjL | <Brainstorm> New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Omicron reinfections ‘rising rapidly’ in over 30s → https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/rynykk/omicron_reinfections_rising_rapidly_in_over_30s/ | 03:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: Melatonin drugs inhibit SARS-CoV-2 entry into the brain and virus-induced damage of cerebral small vessels → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/ryohmp/melatonin_drugs_inhibit_sarscov2_entry_into_the/ | 03:22 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Australia: +112464 cases, +19 deaths since 23 hours ago — South Korea: +3507 cases, +54 deaths since 23 hours ago — Gabon: +1299 cases, +5 deaths since 2 days ago — St. Kitts and Nevis: +238 cases since a day ago | 03:23 |
| Tuvix | LjL: I know people personally who still cling to the falsehood that being infected with a prior varient (likely the original or Alpha given his infection time) continues to confer a higher protection than vaccination, and he refuses to get it. I suspect he's also got some fear of doctors & needles playing a role in that too, which doesn't help in this particular case :\ | 03:41 |
| Tuvix | Maybe the virus will just not re-infect Americans, since we're so "Exceptional" … /s | 03:42 |
| LjL | Tuvix, it's only a half falsehood because being infected *and* having a vaccine does seem to confer better protection, which also makes sense to me based on the data on broader antibodies obtained by different spike proteins... but, it does take a vaccine, and doesn't seem like a great idea | 03:42 |
| LjL | about that melatonin thing above, reddit comment: "10mg and 50mg of melatonin are super high doses. It would be nice if they also chose a high but more reasonable about of something like 3mg for effect." so boo, i had some terrible nightmares with just 1mg of melatonin | 03:43 |
| LjL | but still, if true, during the acute phase, i guess... | 03:43 |
| LjL | apparently melatonin also binds to ACE2? | 03:43 |
| Tuvix | For some of these people who refuse vaccines for one reason or another, it's just excuse-BINGO. Even *if* you can concince a slightly open-minded individual that the main reason they have isn't correct, or at least that we've learned new science that casts serious doubt on it, they'll just fall back on some other reason not to. | 03:44 |
| LjL | Melatonin is considered to prolong the time of survival of infected patients, since it indirectly targets several vital points of human corona virus, like ACE2, BCL2L1, JUN and inhibition of nuclear factor kappa B (NF-κB) kinase subunit beta [109]. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7347488/ | 03:45 |
| LjL | Tuvix, yeah i guess. to be honest, as a vaccinated person who'll take the 4th dose if/when that becomes a thing here, i'm rather disappointed with the current vaccines, so i wouldn't expect someone who's anti-vax in the first place to start rejoicing about them | 03:45 |
| Tuvix | The gradual loss of effectiveness over both time and the emerging varients isn't great, but hopefully we can re-tool and improve what we have, and/or find additional options. It's amazing what we've done, but so is the serious impact and outcomes in what I'll broadly state as "too many" people. | 03:47 |
| Tuvix | I'm a bit annoyed the data from CDC on fatal outcomes by vaccination status is so laggy, because that's a pretty stark indication that, regardless of age, vaccination has helped dramatically. | 03:47 |
| LjL | i would also like some better data on long COVID in the vaccinated | 03:48 |
| Tuvix | I get reporting can be delayed, and so can putting together information, but we have had 2 years to get some of the reporting process smoothed out. I guess if it's inherent in the systems you can't fix that overnight. | 03:48 |
| LjL | i think we still just have "roughly 50% protection" from that UK study and that's it | 03:48 |
| LjL | Tuvix, it does make me mad a lot of the things that haven't been done in 2 years | 03:48 |
| LjL | most countries have found themselves short of rapid tests during the christmas surge | 03:49 |
| LjL | that's ridiculous, they'd have *known* they were going to have a surge that would be coinciding with the holiday period | 03:49 |
| LjL | if they didn't then they're just dumb because i did | 03:49 |
| Tuvix | I wonder what the real-world delay is between knowing and being able to put tests in the hands of shop-keepers and medical staff to hand out. | 03:49 |
| LjL | and if they did but could do nothing about it because there was just too much of a shortage of rapid test, well, 1) we've had two years to make it not so, and/or 2) maybe let's stop relying on China to make everything for us | 03:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: A Surge in Hospitalized Young Children Infected With the Coronavirus → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/ryp41j/a_surge_in_hospitalized_young_children_infected/ | 03:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): nCoV: COVID roundup: active case numbers at 100,000 for first time since August| 07JAN22 → https://old.reddit.com/r/nCoV/comments/ryplo8/covid_roundup_active_case_numbers_at_100000_for/ | 04:00 |
| Tuvix | The other piece of the puzzle is that at-home tests don't have any reporting requirements (not that you'd really know if they weren't in the first place.) It's entierly possible for positive-cases to not only not report that, but not take any mitigations. | 04:00 |
| Tuvix | In many places in the US, you don't _have_ to take any action anyway. | 04:00 |
| Tuvix | Want to go to work, dine in, shop, and mingle, all without a mask? You shouldn't, but there's no legal mechanism to stop it all. | 04:01 |
| Tuvix | From that NYT article, "But the data do not show a similar steep rise in coronavirus infections among hospitalized children of other ages, and federal health officials were considering the possibility that Omicron may not be as mild in young children as it is older children." | 04:05 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Mexico: +28023 cases, +131 deaths since 22 hours ago — Thailand: +8263 cases, +14 deaths since 22 hours ago — Panama: +5043 cases, +4 deaths, +24475 tests (20.6% pos. today) since 23 hours ago — Curacao: +964 cases, +1 deaths, +3768 tests (25.6% pos. today) since 23 hours ago | 04:06 |
| LjL | Tuvix, well, "The increase was observed in children who were 4 and younger, who are not eligible for vaccination"... i don't know about the CDC, but if you look at the data from Italy that i showed you the other day, the vaccines *are* effective at preventing infection (or at least "have been", since the data are not Omicron specific). not 100% effective, not even 50% effective maybe, but effective enough that with something as infectious as Omicron, you'd notice | 04:08 |
| LjL | the difference in age groups with vs without | 04:08 |
| Tuvix | Sure, although our 5 to 11's here are only 16% vaccinationed nationally, so I'm not sure that would have a strong impact. | 04:09 |
| LjL | oh :( | 04:09 |
| Tuvix | There's a _lot_ of resistance to vaccinating the younger age-groups here. Some of it is "wait and see" people, but there's also a not-insignificant showing of "I'll never do it" people. | 04:10 |
| Tuvix | That's part of the reason I'm very eager to see death-by-vaccination stats from the CDC, but so far the most up to date data I have (through the end of Dec anyway) is just the raw deaths broken down by ages: https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-by-Sex-and-Age/9bhg-hcku | 04:10 |
| Tuvix | Obviously we won't really see the impact of Omicron until the Jan, or more realistically Feb-Mar aggregates anyway. | 04:11 |
| LjL | anyway, everyone has been hammering on the point that the vaccines protect against severe cases and deaths, which is fine, however, say an 80% protection from death is just what it says on the tin: you have 1/5 the chance of dying you'd have had otherwise. but an 80% protection from infection, or even a much smaller %, "propagates" down the chain of infections and results in the exponential rising slower | 04:11 |
| LjL | so on the one hand i'm pretty disappointed at the low protection from infection that the vaccines confer, but on the other, the fact they confer *some* protection from infection is probably being downplayed, because it can have an effect even if it's small | 04:12 |
| Tuvix | Exactly, and that's why I for one am very concerned what our high court here just this week has hinted about they're approach to federal regulation of vaccinations or restrisctions based on vaccination status. | 04:12 |
| LjL | (the protection being small, not the effect being small) | 04:12 |
| LjL | Tuvix, what approach is that? | 04:12 |
| Tuvix | We had a 1905 court case at the high court that dealt with this exact issue, where the court ruled that individual rights to freedom can, in cases where it impacted the health of the general public, be limited. | 04:12 |
| LjL | i know | 04:13 |
| Tuvix | Well, they're possibly going to rule the other way this time, with regard to vaccination requirements for our "large" employers. | 04:13 |
| LjL | as in, not even allowing employers to require it? | 04:14 |
| Tuvix | Well, now there's the big question, but a lot of employers can't or won't if they're not obligated to. | 04:14 |
| LjL | it's law now in italy: everyone over 50 must get vaccinated by February or face a... *drumrolls* €100 fine | 04:14 |
| Tuvix | This sports club I'm avoiding is a great example. The owners are vaccinated, but they refuse to have any rules. They'd do it if they were required though. | 04:14 |
| Tuvix | But that's just one of countless. | 04:14 |
| Tuvix | Say you're a bar owner; you want your staff & guests vaccinated, but if you put a rule in place, many of your staff leave for places that don't, and a good portion of your customers vanish. | 04:15 |
| LjL | to be fair, it seems from the Italian data here https://lab24.ilsole24ore.com/numeri-vaccini-italia-mondo/#effetto-dei-vaccini that protection from *infection* is only decent for higher age groups, the lower listed which is 12-39 isn't all that protected | 04:16 |
| Tuvix | I wonder what the impact on amount of socialization has on that too. | 04:16 |
| LjL | i'm also very concerned at the graph below that, which shows protection in time, seeing vaccinated skyrocket :( | 04:17 |
| LjL | (and unvaccinated too, but that goes without saying) | 04:17 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: A Booster mRNA Vaccine Required to Protect Against Omicron Variant: Type Web Page URL https://www.contagionlive.com/view/a-booster-mrna-vaccine-required-to-protect-against-omicron-variant Accessed 2022-01-08 03:31:36 Abstract New data suggests an additional “booster” dose of an [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/SE2EJ3N2 | 04:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: A tiny Florida company got more of a scarce Covid therapy than some big hospitals, raising equity questions: The Covid-19 treatments came as a surprise, care of the Florida Department of Health: six big, mysterious boxes that showed up at Nicholas Suite’s [... want %more?] → https://www.statnews.com/2022/01/07/tiny-florida-company-gets-more-evusheld-than-major-hospitals/ | 04:49 |
| -Bridgestorm- 🏠 Sismo! Earthquake! 5.9 M tremor, registered by CI,US,quakenotices, occurred 38 minutes ago (03:24:08 UTC), duing a crescent moon night, Off Coast Of Northern Chile (-26.7, -71.21), ↓10 km likely felt 250 km away (in Copiapó…) by 158300 people → https://t.co/Ox2qRVAulz (service.scedc.caltech.edu) | 05:02 | |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Grocers pressured to bring back 'hero pay' amid Omicron surge → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/ryqm92/grocers_pressured_to_bring_back_hero_pay_amid/ | 05:08 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Honduras: +371 cases, +2 deaths, +2612 tests (14.2% pos. today) since 23 hours ago | 05:08 |
| Tuvix | This seems very relevant to in-person settings during spread, such as business or schools (from the PNAS 'exposure to infectious human respiratory particles": | 05:27 |
| Tuvix | "If only the susceptible wears a face mask with infectious speaking at a distance of 1.5 m, the upper bound drops very significantly; that is, with a surgical mask, the upper bound reaches 90% after 30 min, and, with an FFP2 mask, it remains at about 20% even after 1 h. […] but, when both wear a well-fitting FFP2 mask, it is 0.4%." | 05:27 |
| LjL | de-facto posted that earlier, we discussed it a bit | 05:29 |
| Tuvix | Ah, neat, I'll scroll up for that then. It just caught my attention how _much_ that changes with 2x good masks worn. | 05:30 |
| LjL | Tuvix, i didn't read it but from their wording it felt... i wouldn't quite say a back-of-the-envelope calculation, but since it's really tricky (usually bordering on unethical) to actually study this, they found ways to guesstimate a bound. which is all good, but to me it doesn't really change what i already thought, i.e. that emphasizing a stupidly small number of meters of "social distancing" is silly and makes people wear masks less because they think they're | 05:32 |
| LjL | already not within the risk thresholds (they aren't thresholds, but they think they are) | 05:32 |
| Tuvix | Right, I saw that from the discussion earlier when I went back. Yea, people are taking the "wrong" message from that. There's no masking anymore since mid-summer at the indoor facility I avoid, and they've updated posted guidance to only require masks "when distancing is not "possible" -- that's exactly the wrong message on masks. | 05:34 |
| Tuvix | It doesn't help that the owner of that particular venue has also told me directly that she's "not convinced masks help" | 05:34 |
| Tuvix | Here again, if you're convinced of a position and only accept information that agrees with you, no amount of science will sway that opinion. | 05:34 |
| LjL | Tuvix, honestly, i'm not *convinced* masks help, because really doing studies on them is surprisingly difficult | 05:36 |
| LjL | but between wearing them and not wearing them, i know where i stand | 05:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: An upper bound on one-to-one exposure to infectious human respiratory particles: Type Journal Article Author Gholamhossein Bagheri Author Birte Thiede Author Bardia Hejazi Author Oliver Schlenczek Author Eberhard Bodenschatz URL https://www.pnas.org/content/118/49/e2110117118 Rights [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/KAARWM2N | 05:36 |
| Tuvix | Right, and as you point out, it's hard to study this in a proper A/B comparison with control groups. It's also hard to find social environments where KN95 or better masks are used consistently vs. not. | 05:37 |
| Tuvix | That flow physics paper seems to suggest that mask wearing, while somewhat helpful for short encounters with only 1 person wearing them, really require everyone in an environment be wearing quality masks for it to have a huge effect. | 05:38 |
| Tuvix | From the significance in the introduction, "We find a very low risk of infection when *everyone* wears a face mask, even if it doesn’t fit perfectly on the face." (emphasis mine.) | 05:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): Covid2019: Why We Need to Upgrade Our Face Masks--and Where to Get Them → https://old.reddit.com/r/Covid2019/comments/ryrjfs/why_we_need_to_upgrade_our_face_masksand_where_to/ | 05:46 |
| Tuvix | 3rd paragraph on the section starting on p2 of that study makes it quite clear that this is a hard problem to study in the abstract. | 05:47 |
| Tuvix | Although the phrase "spatiotemporal exhalation/inhalation dynamics" is neat. :P | 05:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV: New Potential Covid Virus Variants Of Concern: It is too early to know if the B.1.640 variants pose a significant threat. Their significance lies mostly in their existence. ...We are amply forewarned to isolate, [... want %more?] → https://old.reddit.com/r/CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV/comments/ryrrfs/new_potential_covid_virus_variants_of_concern_it/ | 05:55 |
| Brainstorm | New from This Week In Virology: TWiV 850: COVID-19 clinical update #96 with Dr. Daniel Griffin: In COVID-19 clinical update #96, Daniel Griffin reviews Omicron in South Africa, rapid antigen tests, viral confections, isolation and quarantine, saliva preferred for Omicron, risk factors for severe disease in vaccinated, Paxlovid dosing, [... want %more?] → https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-850/ | 06:14 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Belgium: +24694 cases, +13 deaths, +96261 tests (25.7% pos. today) since a day ago — Peru: +12833 cases, +47 deaths, +87126 tests (14.7% pos. today) since 23 hours ago — Japan: +1623 cases, +2 deaths, +100817 tests (1.6% pos. today) since 11 hours ago — Pakistan: +1345 cases, +1 deaths, +46537 tests (2.9% pos. today) since a day ago | 06:17 |
| Juerd | I was just listening to TWiV 849 and I get so incredibly annoyed at them repeating that "vaccines don't prevent infection" when it's obviously proven that they do. It just doesn't last forever, but for flattening curves even that relatively short period with high VEI is brilliant. | 06:18 |
| Juerd | Also that they keep referring to preventing severe disease as "what the vaccines were designed for" - as if vaccine development isn't about guesswork and hoping for the best. Statistical endpoints in trials are not design goals per se. | 06:20 |
| Tuvix | Vaccines don't prevent 100% of anything, although it's not misleading to talk about waning effectiveness over time or the reduced impact on Delta and now Omicron vs. earlier strains. Vaccines are still *very* good at reducing severe outcomes, but the high transmission rate of Omicron in particular is certainly notable. | 06:22 |
| Juerd | Yep. | 06:22 |
| Tuvix | The same has been true for instance of seasonal flu vaccinations for years, and yet those are still recommended for msot people, and especially recommended for older populations more at risk from them. | 06:22 |
| Juerd | It is more than misleading, and in fact just plain wrong, to say that they don't prevent infection, because they do. Many many infections have been prevented. | 06:23 |
| Tuvix | The difference with COVID vaccinations, especially the major mRNA ones available, is that they really are so much more effective, at least with a full series, and now boosting given the impact time and Omicron have had. | 06:23 |
| Tuvix | Well, you have to be careful, because "prevent" and "reduce" are often interpreted differently. One would usually use a qualification with the former. | 06:24 |
| Juerd | Many individual would-be-infections were prevented. | 06:24 |
| Tuvix | if I don't smoke or expose myself to 2nd hand smoke, I prevent effectively all negative effects of that. If I cut my smoking by 75%, I reduce my odds of bad outcomes. I don't prevent it. | 06:24 |
| Tuvix | (well, my smoking is personally zero, but speaking from the point of someone who did…) | 06:24 |
| Juerd | It would have been great if they just said that "vaccines don't prevent infections forever", or "for very long", etc. | 06:25 |
| Tuvix | The real issue, to me, is the bad messaging early on. Here in the US, the CDC and similar agencies pushed hard that it practically removed all risk for the vaccinated of getting inefected. We know that now not to be true, but it was frankly guesswork and unrealistic expectations back then. | 06:26 |
| Juerd | I think the bad messaging is a pervasive issue that still exists today. | 06:26 |
| Tuvix | Then in the early summer, guidance changed again to effectively tell the vaccinated to stop wearing masks and largely stop taking prevention measures. That was just before the huge Delta surge… | 06:26 |
| Juerd | I agree that was bad, but it's hardly the only part where messaging has gone wrong | 06:27 |
| Tuvix | Sure, it's been mistake after mistake. It doesn't help that there are effectively no teeth to any of this guidance, so it's all suggestions and what you "should" do -- many people or businesses just don't. | 06:28 |
| Tuvix | That's been bothering me for months, and it's cost me some socialization I used to have because they're now rather risky places or people to be around. | 06:28 |
| Juerd | In every major topic of the public health part of the pandemic, the public has been misinformed by major authorities. | 06:28 |
| Tuvix | Places that could do a better job with masks indoors in poorly-ventilated areas for example, but that refuse to even look at emerging or changing science. | 06:28 |
| Tuvix | I forget the quote attribution offhand, but there's a great quote about science that is roughly: "We use science to become right, not to prove that we were right." | 06:29 |
| Juerd | I still find it kinda weird that many of this is considered emerging or changing science :). So much was kinda clear to many early on, and it's insane how many supposed experts held dogmatic beliefs to the contrary. And perhaps even more insane how many still do. | 06:30 |
| Juerd | Nice quote | 06:30 |
| Tuvix | I linked this char earlier today on a slightly different discussion, but if one of our metrics is severe outcomes, we never got back to a "pre-delta" level of relatively low death at the point after vaccinations were widely available: https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailycases_7daydeathsper100k | 06:30 |
| Tuvix | In the post-Delta surge, deaths both didn't fall as quickly, and never really got "low" -- they only got slightly less bad than the peak, and were fairly steady until just recently. | 06:31 |
| Tuvix | (US specific data, of coruse, being the CDC) | 06:31 |
| Tuvix | Juerd: Here's the other thing about public health messaging though: it's not only about the science, but about politics and what you can actually expect people to do. You could have the best and firm guidance possible, but if fewer people follow it, that's also ineffective. | 06:32 |
| Tuvix | Like with the CDC not (yet…) pushing for better quality masks: the CDC Directory has publicly said that this was intentional, becuase they're begging those in high-transmission areas of the country (ie: all of them) to wear a mask, *any* mask, who currently do not. | 06:33 |
| Tuvix | Now, is this a good approach? Perhaps not if one reviews the science, but it's a tricky balancing act when you are trying to raise the bare-minimum people are willing to do. | 06:33 |
| Juerd | Regarding risky places and people, that's the thing I'm depressed about most at a personal level. Fights over whether people with fragile health (including myself) are even worth protecting. I still can't really believe so many people had no problem really going there. | 06:34 |
| Tuvix | At this point I don't think much will change without meaningful regulation and enforcement, but I have little hope of that in the short term here in the US. | 06:34 |
| Juerd | About what people are willing to follow - I'm convinced (but can't prove it) that transparent and consistent messaging would have gotten us much higher compliance. | 06:35 |
| Juerd | Much of the unwillingness stems from distrust, and they keep proving themselves untrustworthy :( | 06:35 |
| Juerd | But it's 6:35 AM here (.nl) and I shouldn't be awake this late. | 06:36 |
| Tuvix | I think it's less about lack of trust, but more about poor messaging. Although I do have one notable exception with the CDC's messaging, since it seems some of the lack of more testing recommendation was, at least in part, driven by lack of tests. | 06:36 |
| Juerd | Thanks for the chat; ciao | 06:36 |
| Tuvix | Sure, see ya! | 06:36 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for England, United Kingdom: +149405 cases, +193 deaths since 23 hours ago — Florida, United States: +120213 cases since 23 hours ago — California, United States: +108423 cases, +205 deaths since 23 hours ago — New York, United States: +85079 cases since 23 hours ago | 07:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Covid Case Predictor predicts covid cases won’t reach highest levels in California till second week of February → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rysvon/covid_case_predictor_predicts_covid_cases_wont/ | 07:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: FDA warns against using throat swabs for home Covid-19 tests → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/ryte1b/fda_warns_against_using_throat_swabs_for_home/ | 07:49 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Czechia: +6696 cases, +51 deaths since a day ago — Uzbekistan: +214 cases, +4 deaths since a day ago — Turks and Caicos: +125 cases since a day ago — Cambodia: +27 cases since a day ago | 08:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: 96% patients on oxygen support in Mumbai hospitals are unvaccinated: BMC chief → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/ryu0h6/96_patients_on_oxygen_support_in_mumbai_hospitals/ | 08:26 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Taiwan: +44 cases, +46328 tests (0.1% positive) since 23 hours ago — United Kingdom: +179470 cases since 20 hours ago | 09:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Montreal woman blames Asian couple for spread of COVID-19 in racist rant in grocery store [Video] → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/ryuozq/montreal_woman_blames_asian_couple_for_spread_of/ | 09:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: S. Korea: Daily virus cases below 4,000 for 2nd day amid omicron woes → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/ryuv5r/s_korea_daily_virus_cases_below_4000_for_2nd_day/ | 09:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Australia’s Daily Covid Cases Surpass 100,000 for First Time → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/ryv32v/australias_daily_covid_cases_surpass_100000_for/ | 09:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: New study puts the Omicron variant in a group apart from its predecessors → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/ryv9fp/new_study_puts_the_omicron_variant_in_a_group/ | 09:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Bearskin Lake chief says community near ‘breaking point,’ needs urgent federal help | Globalnews.ca → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/ryvhu2/bearskin_lake_chief_says_community_near_breaking/ | 10:09 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Maharashtra, India: +40925 cases, +20 deaths since a day ago — West Bengal, India: +18213 cases, +18 deaths since a day ago — Delhi, India: +17335 cases, +9 deaths since a day ago — Tamil Nadu, India: +8981 cases, +8 deaths since a day ago | 10:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Inside the Spanish lab seeking the definitive Covid-19 vaccine → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/ryviv9/inside_the_spanish_lab_seeking_the_definitive/ | 10:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: California Governor Newsom Activates National Guard to Bolster State’s COVID-19 Testing Capacity → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/ryw6zg/california_governor_newsom_activates_national/ | 10:57 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: Omicron Variant (B.1.1.529): Infectivity, Vaccine Breakthrough, and Antibody Resistance → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/ryweq3/omicron_variant_b11529_infectivity_vaccine/ | 11:06 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Philippines: +26211 cases, +264 deaths since a day ago — Russia: +16568 cases, +796 deaths, +300000 tests (5.5% positive) since a day ago — Lithuania: +3366 cases, +20 deaths, +22531 tests (14.9% positive) since a day ago — Estonia: +1647 cases, +3 deaths, +8290 tests (19.9% positive) since a day ago | 11:07 |
| aradesh | full clip of that vaccine hesitant doctor in the UK the other day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOlEYcd1nyI | 11:27 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): Covid2019: Covid Spilled From Animals to Humans. Now It’s Spilling Back → https://old.reddit.com/r/Covid2019/comments/rywt35/covid_spilled_from_animals_to_humans_now_its/ | 11:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Get Novak vaxxed! :D → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/ryx353/get_novak_vaxxed_d/ | 12:03 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Poland: +10897 cases, +292 deaths since 23 hours ago — Austria: +7405 cases, +14 deaths, +471709 tests (1.6% positive) since 23 hours ago — Kazakhstan: +3443 cases since 5 hours ago — Ukraine: +3339 cases, +89 deaths since 23 hours ago | 12:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: New York will require health care workers to get boosters. → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/ryxbjz/new_york_will_require_health_care_workers_to_get/ | 12:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: World passes 300 million Covid cases as Omicron breaks records → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/ryxjfk/world_passes_300_million_covid_cases_as_omicron/ | 12:22 |
| oerheks | 303,968,671 .. hit F5 ... 303,974,707 | 12:35 |
| aradesh | likely much higher than 300 million in reality | 12:38 |
| aradesh | most countries around the world have really poor testing capabilities | 12:38 |
| oerheks | certainly dying numbers, when not tested, one did not suffer covid | 12:39 |
| aradesh | yes both | 12:40 |
| oerheks | i bet the number of infected x5 | 12:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: COVID-19 risk calculator, by Leumit Research Institute → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/ryxtiy/covid19_risk_calculator_by_leumit_research/ | 12:41 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Slovenia: +4510 cases, +6 deaths, +11233 tests (40.1% positive) since 23 hours ago — Saudi Arabia: +3068 cases, +2 deaths since 23 hours ago — Latvia: +1815 cases, +8 deaths, +10798 tests (16.8% positive) since 22 hours ago | 12:59 |
| sdfgsdfg | what if the numbers still remain high, higher than what the endemic numbers should be | 13:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: Risk for Newly Diagnosed Diabetes >30 Days After SARS-CoV-2 Infection Among Persons Aged <18 years → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/ryxzdx/risk_for_newly_diagnosed_diabetes_30_days_after/ | 13:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: New coronavirus variant discovered in Cyprus ("Deltacron") → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/ryyaw4/new_coronavirus_variant_discovered_in_cyprus/ | 13:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV: The long road to the perfect covid vaccine: there are 60 vaccine candidates currently in phase 3 of clinical trials—an indication that the quest for an improved and effective vaccine against covid-19 has only just begun. → https://old.reddit.com/r/CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV/comments/ryyfn1/the_long_road_to_the_perfect_covid_vaccine_there/ | 13:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: ‘Morale is low’: US teachers push back on school reopenings amid Omicron wave → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/ryymdb/morale_is_low_us_teachers_push_back_on_school/ | 13:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: I’m covid positive with multiple sclerosis and immune compromised due to meds. The ms symptoms are worse and flared up due to covid. We were safe but family who visited are convinced covid not real have gotten me unwell. Still don’t believe [... want %more?] → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/ryywtb/im_covid_positive_with_multiple_sclerosis_and/ | 13:56 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Vietnam: +16553 cases, +240 deaths, +93088 tests (17.8% positive) since 23 hours ago — Romania: +6036 cases, +26 deaths, +64708 tests (9.3% positive) since 23 hours ago — Zambia: +3300 cases, +8 deaths, +12368 tests (26.7% positive) since 23 hours ago — UAE: +2655 cases, +3 deaths, +388572 tests (0.7% positive) since a day ago | 14:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: U.K. gov't advisers recommend against 4th vaccine dose → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/ryz4tv/uk_govt_advisers_recommend_against_4th_vaccine/ | 14:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Outbreak reported at Rhode Island hospital after Covid-positive, asymptomatic staff asked to work → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/ryzbou/outbreak_reported_at_rhode_island_hospital_after/ | 14:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Nearly 100K students absent on first day back at school in Miami, Broward amid COVID surge → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/ryzrm8/nearly_100k_students_absent_on_first_day_back_at/ | 14:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Amazon shortens Covid paid leave time for US employees → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rz01oj/amazon_shortens_covid_paid_leave_time_for_us/ | 14:53 |
| sdfgsdfg | still not sick since day 1, another day ends | 15:05 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Croatia: +8817 cases, +36 deaths since a day ago — Germany: +53795 cases since 22 hours ago — Iran: +701 cases, +26 deaths since a day ago — United Kingdom: +179447 cases since 23 hours ago | 15:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Anti-vaccine French lawmaker dies after contracting COVID-19 → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/rz0j5c/antivaccine_french_lawmaker_dies_after/ | 15:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: WaPo—lots of COVID in hospital is secondary; hospital shortages driven by staffing → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rz0pyw/wapolots_of_covid_in_hospital_is_secondary/ | 15:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: America’s COVID Rules Are a Dumpster Fire → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rz15m2/americas_covid_rules_are_a_dumpster_fire/ | 15:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Federal government to decide if 1 million expired Florida COVID-19 test kits are salvageable → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rz1cej/federal_government_to_decide_if_1_million_expired/ | 16:00 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Ireland: +26122 cases since 19 hours ago — Iraq: +316 cases, +2 deaths, +7923 tests (4.0% positive) since 23 hours ago — Kyrgyzstan: +193 cases, +2 deaths since a day ago — Brunei: +20 cases, +1583 tests (1.3% positive) since 11 hours ago | 16:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: First-dose vaccinations quadruple in Quebec ahead of restrictions at liquor and cannabis stores → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/rz1zla/firstdose_vaccinations_quadruple_in_quebec_ahead/ | 16:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Overwhelmed by COVID, Quebec hospitals face tough choices in scaling back surgeries → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rz26i4/overwhelmed_by_covid_quebec_hospitals_face_tough/ | 16:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Record level of children under five are being hospitalized amid COVID surge → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rz2989/record_level_of_children_under_five_are_being/ | 16:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: First-dose vaccinations quadruple in Quebec ahead of restrictions at liquor and cannabis stores → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rz2h9b/firstdose_vaccinations_quadruple_in_quebec_ahead/ | 16:57 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Chile: +4346 cases, +19 deaths, +77829 tests (5.6% positive) since 23 hours ago | 17:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: SARS‐CoV‐2 induced post‐translational protein modifications: A trigger for developing autoimmune diabetes? → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/rz2p59/sarscov2_induced_posttranslational_protein/ | 17:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): Saturday 08 January 2022 Update: submitted by /u/HippolasCage to r/CoronavirusUK → https://old.reddit.com/r/CoronavirusUK/comments/rz358s/saturday_08_january_2022_update/ | 17:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Science: science: New study finds people who are obsessed with celebrities to be less intelligent. According to the findings, "there is a clear correlation between celebrity worship and poorer performance on cognitive tests" evaluating both reading and numeracy. → https://old.reddit.com/r/science/comments/rz3dp1/new_study_finds_people_who_are_obsessed_with/ | 17:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Japan struggling to hold Coming-of-Age Day events due to COVID surge → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rz3hhb/japan_struggling_to_hold_comingofage_day_events/ | 17:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Omicron explosion spurs nationwide breakdown of services | AP News → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rz3se4/omicron_explosion_spurs_nationwide_breakdown_of/ | 17:54 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Netherlands: +30448 cases, +9 deaths since 23 hours ago — Serbia: +7652 cases, +23 deaths, +22947 tests (33.3% positive) since a day ago — Morocco: +7064 cases, +8 deaths, +37426 tests (18.9% positive) since 21 hours ago — Dominican Rep.: +6200 cases, +3 deaths, +16256 tests (38.1% positive) since 21 hours ago | 18:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: nearly 200.000 new cases today in Italy with 184 death → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rz47vj/nearly_200000_new_cases_today_in_italy_with_184/ | 18:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid-positive nurses are working in NSW hospitals due to severe staffing shortages → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/rz4gr0/covidpositive_nurses_are_working_in_nsw_hospitals/ | 18:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Citigroup will terminate unvaccinated workers by Jan. 31, a first among Wall Street banks → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/rz4mcv/citigroup_will_terminate_unvaccinated_workers_by/ | 18:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from Contagion Live: Vaccinated Mothers Pass COVID-19 Antibodies to Breastfeeding Infants: Breastfeeding babies safely receive COVID-19-neutralizing antibodies from their mRNA-vaccinated mothers. → https://www.contagionlive.com/view/vaccinated-mothers-pass-covid-19-antibodies-to-breastfeeding-infants | 18:42 |
| Atque | Does anyone reckon developing a sterile vaccine for covid-19 (which stops close to 100% of infection and transmission) is possible? | 18:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Busy Mexico’s Tourist Destinations Record Spike in COVID-19 Cases → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rz4s37/busy_mexicos_tourist_destinations_record_spike_in/ | 18:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: FACT FOCUS: Unfounded theory used to dismiss COVID measures → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rz5cva/fact_focus_unfounded_theory_used_to_dismiss_covid/ | 19:01 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Italy: +197535 cases, +184 deaths, +1220266 tests (16.2% positive) since a day ago — Greece: +37670 cases, +65 deaths, +557361 tests (6.8% positive) since 23 hours ago — United Kingdom: +140566 cases since 23 hours ago — Malaysia: +3251 cases, +11 deaths since 23 hours ago | 19:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: More older Mainers are being infected with COVID-19 than kids again → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rz5ltz/more_older_mainers_are_being_infected_with/ | 19:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Covid: UK records more than 150,000 deaths → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rz5q3i/covid_uk_records_more_than_150000_deaths/ | 19:20 |
| LjL | uhm, Italy has fewer cases than yesterday (iirc) despite a lage number of tests? hopefully... but i always have the sensation that tests refer to a given day and cases to another. | 19:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Omicron explosion spurs nationwide breakdown of services → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rz66pw/omicron_explosion_spurs_nationwide_breakdown_of/ | 19:39 |
| LjL | ugh | 19:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Science: science: Women vaccinated against COVID-19 transfer SARS-CoV-2 antibodies to their breastfed infants, potentially giving their babies passive immunity against the coronavirus. The antibodies were detected in infants regardless of age – from 1.5 months old to 23 [... want %more?] → https://old.reddit.com/r/science/comments/rz6og4/women_vaccinated_against_covid19_transfer/ | 19:58 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Portugal: +35643 cases, +20 deaths since 23 hours ago — Israel: +19968 cases since 23 hours ago — Japan: +6679 cases since 13 hours ago — Jamaica: +1593 cases, +6 deaths since a day ago | 20:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Cyprus Finds Covid-19 Infections That Combine Delta and Omicron → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rz6wbk/cyprus_finds_covid19_infections_that_combine/ | 20:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: COVID-related School Closures Led to More Sleep and Better Quality of Life for Adolescents → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rz79ub/covidrelated_school_closures_led_to_more_sleep/ | 20:26 |
| lastshell | hey guys is normal some days I feel no tired and others feel tired | 20:28 |
| Tuvix | You had a positive test result, right? So to put that in context, fatigue is indeed a possible symptom of the infection, as it is with many illnesses. | 20:31 |
| lastshell | but is weird Tuvix like one day good other tired ? | 20:31 |
| lastshell | like flip-flop | 20:32 |
| lastshell | sore troat is way better | 20:32 |
| LjL | my aunt is at the ER for low potassium-caused cardiac stuff, her daughter is positive to antigen test, and they're giving my aunt an MRI after an x-ray to the chest and something to the head for a reason unclear to us :( | 20:32 |
| LjL | everything is kinda precipitating | 20:32 |
| lastshell | oh shirt LjL | 20:32 |
| lastshell | sorry to read that LjL | 20:32 |
| LjL | for someone else... do you know if there's any actual study or some hard data (some data at all, as opposed to anecdotes) over Omicron's reduced incidence of loss of smell/taste? is it *very* rare? | 20:34 |
| lastshell | LjL yesterday I had some loss smell | 20:35 |
| lastshell | but was because the congestion | 20:35 |
| lastshell | I was scared | 20:35 |
| LjL | i understand, it sounds scary | 20:35 |
| lastshell | after nasal clean and warm water in the troat | 20:36 |
| lastshell | helped a lot to recover the smell | 20:36 |
| LjL | intermittent fatigue is sort of common i think, especially with Delta many people complained they felt bad (very fatigued), then good, but then bad again | 20:36 |
| LjL | maybe a bit less so with Omicron but i don't know | 20:36 |
| de-facto | Hey LjL, hope she is going to be fine there | 20:37 |
| LjL | de-facto, i hope my mom is not going to break down either... one of her sisters died of a heart attack in 2011, another died when she was much younger from a brain tumor, if something bad happens to this one too... ugh | 20:38 |
| LjL | my mom is extremely, like... you know, the sort of person who bears the burden of everyone else's issues too | 20:38 |
| lastshell | sending good vibes from here | 20:39 |
| de-facto | yeah so in that regard its good they investigate early enough to maximize chances to prevent unwanted outcomes | 20:41 |
| de-facto | Afaik Omicron may have lost the ability to profit from TMPRSS2 on cell surfaces, so it would be interesting to investigate how that influences neurotropism | 20:42 |
| lastshell | one thing I also noticed I sweat at nights | 20:42 |
| lastshell | I don't know what covid I have delta/omicron | 20:43 |
| de-facto | you tested positive? | 20:43 |
| lastshell | yes last tuesday | 20:43 |
| lastshell | but I have 3 pfizer | 20:44 |
| de-facto | yeah then you most likely will be just fine, its a very good boosting and broadening of your immunity | 20:44 |
| lastshell | yes in general I think im better that I was before | 20:44 |
| lastshell | so far only one day headache | 20:45 |
| de-facto | iirc it was one of the symptoms reported with Omicron to be more common, tiredness, night sweat to a degree one would have to change sheets | 20:45 |
| lastshell | the congestion in the nose is annoying | 20:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: U.S. Forces in South Korea Raise COVID-19 Alert Amid Record Infections → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rz7t4b/us_forces_in_south_korea_raise_covid19_alert_amid/ | 20:46 |
| lastshell | you clean yourself and then after some time you need todo it again | 20:46 |
| de-facto | do you have eucalyptus essential oil? or onions? :D | 20:46 |
| lastshell | I have onions near by | 20:46 |
| lastshell | what is the trick ? | 20:46 |
| de-facto | idk i would just eat them raw :D (but thats me, not everyone likes that) | 20:47 |
| de-facto | basically blowing the nose is a good thing, it is a mechanism to clean off your mucus | 20:48 |
| de-facto | when i have a stuffy nose i just drop some eucalyptus or peppermint essential oil in the mouth, it is very refreshing to a degree that one wants to jump in triangles for a moment :D | 20:50 |
| de-facto | but it may cause a cough, so maybe to the best idea when having a respiratory disease | 20:50 |
| LjL | de-facto, my cousin who just tested positive also had a piercing headache, so yeah headache does seem a constant | 20:50 |
| de-facto | does he have a loss or change of smell and taste? | 20:51 |
| LjL | i mean the new cousin who tested positive, the one who tested positive before is well now... | 20:51 |
| Tuvix | LjL: My condolences on the family in the hospital; hopefully the doctors can get to the bottom of what's going on. Best wishes to a speedy recovery. | 20:51 |
| de-facto | nice to hear, at least that | 20:51 |
| LjL | i haven't heard of loss of smell and taste from anyone i know yet, except on IRC friend, and that's why i was asking how common it is with Omicron | 20:51 |
| LjL | if there are studies on that, since it's all just anecdotes that i have | 20:52 |
| de-facto | i think i read that too somewhere, but i dont remember where anymore | 20:52 |
| de-facto | that is may be less common with Omicron possibly (or anecdotally) | 20:52 |
| LjL | i wish PCR with SGTF was a lot more common | 20:53 |
| LjL | it's inexcusable that we don't even get to know if it's Omicron or not, when it's perfectly possible, and people in the UK do | 20:53 |
| lastshell | LjL I was wathing a video from a doctor in colombia and the lose of taste of smell is not common in omicron but few cases are reported | 20:53 |
| de-facto | btw RAT may have possibly less sensitivity for Omicron (at least some of them) | 20:53 |
| LjL | de-facto, my very subjective impression is that, well, if some of them are just not right for Omicron's antigens, then yeah they will work less well, but those that *do* work may actually be more sensitive with Omicron | 20:54 |
| LjL | de-facto, just compare the spike in PCR tests vs the spike in antigen tests here https://lab24.ilsole24ore.com/coronavirus/#box_6a (black line indicates the rate) | 20:55 |
| LjL | sure, both are spiking | 20:55 |
| LjL | but antigen are spiking like an order of magnitude more | 20:55 |
| critr | i read covid can affect the thalamus, which distributes sensory data. including olfactory. | 20:55 |
| LjL | they reached 16% positive, whereas they were never more than 1% positive with Delta and before | 20:55 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: 96% patients on oxygen support in Mumbai hospitals are unvaccinated: BMC chief → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/rz7xot/96_patients_on_oxygen_support_in_mumbai_hospitals/ | 20:55 |
| de-facto | afaik RATs use N-protein antibodies to clamp onto samples, | 20:56 |
| LjL | PCR is at 29%, but it was already 10% before | 20:56 |
| LjL | so PCR increased 3-fold, but antigen increased 16-fold | 20:56 |
| LjL | (or more) | 20:57 |
| Tuvix | critr: There was a preprint study from UK Biobank that used brain imaging scans pre/post COVID (taken before the pandemic) and found a possible marker in the pre-scans related to the thalamus. It's not enough to draw conclusions, but it suggests more research in the area may be beneficial. | 20:57 |
| de-facto | chrome messes up that link | 20:57 |
| Arsanerit | I'm not sure how informative PCR positivity test rates are if many PCR tests are taken only because a self-test or rapid test is positive, where the number of those tests may not be reported. | 20:57 |
| Tuvix | critr: If you're interested in the details, the full multi-page PDF is here: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.11.21258690v3 | 20:57 |
| de-facto | firefox too, that site does something weird to ids | 20:57 |
| de-facto | good point Arsanerit | 20:57 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, well if anything they'd err towards being *more* positive (pre-screening), no? | 20:57 |
| LjL | but instead they don't | 20:57 |
| critr | Tuvix, thank you. | 20:58 |
| Arsanerit | LjL: Well, among German school-age children I read the PCR positivity rate is in the order of 35%, but if you consider all the self-tests they're doing three times a week the positivity rate is below 0.1%. | 20:59 |
| LjL | a practical question that someone asked yesterday and that i thought was interesting, but no idea if there's an answer, i thought i'd repost it: if someone is reusing FFP2 masks (which, honestly, most people are), is there a practical way to determine if the proper electrostatic charge is still there? | 21:00 |
| Tuvix | The problem is self-tests are often not reported, and at-home anitgen tests have a substantial false-negative rate (reports negative when you are positive and contagious) | 21:00 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, well what i'm saying is that the *rapid tests* here (self-tests are not incredibly common) are the *majority* here, and they are now at 12-16% positive, which is way, way more than they've ever been before (1% at most, but more often 0.10% or so) | 21:00 |
| de-facto | LjL, one would have to measure filter efficiency (exposing them to a known rate of particles of a certain size and measure by how much they reduce it) | 21:01 |
| LjL | so as Tuvix says, you expect a higher false negative rate with antigen tests - and that was the case before - but now they've skyrocketed into positive territory | 21:01 |
| Tuvix | I guess if it's compulsory testing that _may_ have a higher rate of correct reporting? And hopefully a decently high rate of being performed correctly, but some aren't going to be. | 21:01 |
| de-facto | not sure if that is practical for normal people without equipment | 21:01 |
| LjL | they're still less positive than PCR tests, but the *comparison* between positive rate during Delta time and now shows more antigen tests are positive | 21:01 |
| LjL | de-facto, yeah that would not be practical. i was wondering if just detecting an electrostatic charge could be done as a proxy metric (not 100% meaning it's still able to filter, but at least some indication) | 21:02 |
| Arsanerit | LjL: But that only counts the rapid tests in official test centres? I mean the self-tests that people do at home or schoolkids to at school. I don't think anyone counts those? | 21:02 |
| LjL | de-facto, like you know, i was thinking if it would attract tiny bits of paper, things like that. i don't really know what the charge is supposed to be like | 21:02 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, you're right, but those aren't very common here, because they're a lot more expensive than in Germany | 21:03 |
| LjL | and schoolkid tests are counted, if they have to do them officially | 21:03 |
| de-facto | that charge is a permanent induced *dipole* (on the scale of the fiber diameter) | 21:03 |
| Arsanerit | Why are they more expensive than in Germany? | 21:03 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, i don't know, i presume they're subsidized in Germany | 21:03 |
| LjL | as they are in the UK | 21:03 |
| Arsanerit | I found they cost much more in the pharmacy than in the supermarket or drug store, but they're also more likely to be sold out there. | 21:04 |
| LjL | they're like €5 each if you buy a batch of more than one, here, i think | 21:04 |
| LjL | (in the supermarket) | 21:04 |
| Arsanerit | My colleagues are saying they're always testing their kids at home before they get tested at school, due to the social and practical consequences of a positive test at school. | 21:04 |
| de-facto | so its only attracting particles in very very close proximity (probably only visible under the microscope), its not having a macroscopic (monopole) charge like a balloon or such that attracts paper pieces (that are charged differently relative to it) | 21:04 |
| LjL | de-facto, okay, i see | 21:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Gainesville [Fla.] commission flips, will pay out incentives to employees who get COVID shots → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rz84cx/gainesville_fla_commission_flips_will_pay_out/ | 21:05 |
| critr | it only needs to attract particles within the distance to the next fiber. | 21:05 |
| de-facto | think of it like tiny dipole fields around each fiber (if you look at the cross section, it would look similar to a magnetic dipole field) | 21:05 |
| de-facto | so only nearfield not farfield | 21:05 |
| critr | half the distance actually. | 21:05 |
| LjL | i understand (roughly). too bad, it would be nice to have a rough indication if a mask is still in decent shape | 21:06 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for France: +196897 cases since 22 hours ago — South Africa: +7759 cases, +119 deaths, +40882 tests (19.0% positive) since a day ago — Cyprus: +3959 cases, +4 deaths since a day ago — Mozambique: +3117 cases, +2 deaths, +16091 tests (19.4% positive) since a day ago | 21:06 |
| de-facto | its done by exposing the fibers to an electric field during their production, (or by heating them) in order to arrange the molecules in a way that induce a permanent dipole in the material of the fibers (polypropylene afaik) | 21:07 |
| de-facto | it can be destroyed by heat or alcohol etc | 21:07 |
| * de-facto freezes because the heater of the house is broken and the landlord is not reachable :/ | 21:08 | |
| Tuvix | I don't think there's a great way to judge how effective a used mask is outside of the lab (or a new one for that matter if storage quality is in question) | 21:08 |
| de-facto | never spray a mask with alcohol or such, it destroys its filtering capability | 21:09 |
| Tuvix | Really it boils down to some self-aware jugement of how used the mask is, how well it still can be fit to the face, and how much abuse it's had (longer wearing time, more use in heavy-breathing or physical exhertion situations, etc) | 21:09 |
| Tuvix | Right, and don't store masks in airtight containers; you want them to air out after use if you plan to re-use them. | 21:09 |
| de-facto | some people tried to do that in good faith to sanitize it, its a bad idea though | 21:09 |
| de-facto | yes the outside surface is potentially contaminated, so dont put them in plastic bags (shedding contamination form outside to inside the mask) | 21:10 |
| critr | even after evaporation? | 21:10 |
| Tuvix | I keep mine in a paper bag and make sure it's not fully closed when I store it; that's just so it won't collect dust (or my cat's fur…) when I'm not wearing it. | 21:10 |
| de-facto | yeah i would not do anything that could transport particles from the outside to the inside | 21:10 |
| de-facto | i never touch the outside and just hang them by tiny magnets on a metal bar of my furniture | 21:11 |
| de-facto | let them dry there | 21:11 |
| de-facto | (ok ok yes i know i should not reuse them, but i do) | 21:11 |
| Tuvix | I mean, you basically have to unless you have a free supply of them, typically provided by an employer; even hospitals (the top use-case in most areas) have gone to multiple re-use procedures, though with a bit more protocol and oversight of that. | 21:12 |
| de-facto | i was shopping today, they control entry in every store with vaccination certificate and id, i did wear my FFP3 the whole time, even on the bicycle to home (because it was so convenient that it pre-heated the cold air), but now i have to dry it, because wearing them in the cold outdoors makes moisture condensing on it, also destroying its filter capacity (temporarily) | 21:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: First-dose vaccinations quadruple in Quebec ahead of restrictions at liquor and cannabis stores → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rz8dxf/firstdose_vaccinations_quadruple_in_quebec_ahead/ | 21:14 |
| de-facto | only a dry mask does proper filtering, so i would not wear it on the bicycle on my way *to* a location where i would have to wear the mask, but on my way home (when i know i would take it off) i just let it stay out of convenience | 21:14 |
| Tuvix | My ≥98% 0.1µm mask got pretty heavy moisture in it, but they came out with a neat addition I added to my last filter replacement order that is basically a fitted sponge around the outside edge of the interior of the TPU mask form. | 21:15 |
| Tuvix | It's rather simple, but quite effective; it no longer has so much free moisture clinging to the TPU interior when I take it off after some physical activity. | 21:16 |
| de-facto | what worries me a bit is that i still could smell smoke, *while* wearing an airtight FFP3 | 21:16 |
| de-facto | it smelled much differently though, so the mask definitely does some filtering, but obviously not all of it | 21:17 |
| oerheks | it keeps your couch inside | 21:17 |
| critr | the smoke must have had some particles smaller than a virus. | 21:17 |
| oerheks | i see no other use | 21:18 |
| Tuvix | Hmm, a quick search tells me that smoke can contain particles of "PM2.5" which is to say all particles 2.5µm and _smaller_ | 21:18 |
| Tuvix | So if your mask is only say 95% (or whatever, 97, 98%) effective at paricles down _to_ 0.1µm, you may be getting both some of that remaining percent bleed-through, and/or smaller particles that the mask isn't designed to effectively filter. | 21:18 |
| LjL | Tuvix, but i've always heard FFP2/3 masks are actually *better than 95%* at *smaller* particles... the particle size they're tested with is the one they perform the worst at | 21:19 |
| de-facto | yes a filter is only a reduction of contamination, its never ever going to be 100% | 21:19 |
| de-facto | yes smaller particles are easier to filter because they diffuse onto the fibers | 21:19 |
| de-facto | bigger particles are behaving more ballistically, smaller ones more like diffusion (bumping around by air molecules impacts) | 21:20 |
| de-facto | .title https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/what-is-pm0-3-why-important/ | 21:22 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From smartairfilters.com: What is PM0.3 Pollution and Why Is It Important? - Smart Air | 21:22 |
| Tuvix | Interesting, although I wonder what the implication on mask effectiveness in indoor spaces is then, since perhaps it'll be easier for aerosols to pass a mask in close areas before evaporation has had a chance to reduce the effective size of the particles to be captured. | 21:26 |
| de-facto | .title https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/how-long-can-surgical-masks-be-used/ | 21:26 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From smartairfilters.com: How Long Do Face Masks Last? – Smart Air | 21:26 |
| de-facto | LjL, ^^ | 21:26 |
| Tuvix | Assuming of course that the contagious isn't wearing a fitted mask, which would go a long way to stopping at least a good part of that. | 21:26 |
| de-facto | .title https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/how-long-air-pollution-masks-last-lifespan-data/ | 21:27 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From smartairfilters.com: Data Shows N95 Masks Can Last Longer Than Once Thought - Smart Air | 21:27 |
| LjL | de-facto, hmm i knew that site, but didn't remember that page. i guess that means the main concern with a good N95 mask is to not get it wet (or alcohol of course), and to avoid mold | 21:28 |
| de-facto | the certification only applies for the (one time) usage though, but i do reuse mine anyways (against recommendations) | 21:29 |
| Tuvix | I've seen the fit stressed a lot in medical summary of mask re-use; that makes some sense since a spoiled mask (wet, moldy, etc) is probably fairly easy to identify, but a compromised fit means the mask isn't actually filtering how it was designed/tested. | 21:30 |
| LjL | too bad those Venus masks don't seem to be available here, interesting that they have fabric straps | 21:30 |
| Tuvix | The TPU-molded mask shell I have has fabric straps, with a clasp to adjust the tension. | 21:30 |
| de-facto | fabric straps may be more durable, but i think they would slip over the hairs, so may end up on the ears | 21:31 |
| critr | ffp3 masks wouldn't filter the gaseous component of smoke. | 21:31 |
| LjL | Tuvix, or in the case of most "FFP2" (really KN95 or at best KF94) masks we get here, they've never been filtering decently as they never had a decent fit because they were never designed for it :P | 21:31 |
| de-facto | yes indeed particle masks do not filter gases | 21:31 |
| de-facto | and it did smell quite differently | 21:31 |
| Tuvix | This was actually an upgrade on the original that had an elastic top-strap, and velcro for the lower-strap behind the neck. My velcro was getting worn, so I upgraded to the cloth covering that comes with a single fabric strap (similar to a shoelace) with a tesioner to keep it on the face once fitted. | 21:31 |
| LjL | i wish i could get known-good FFP2 masks that have around-the-ears strap... because while i know that around-the-head are better, i can't convince my parents, my mom especially, who has long hair | 21:31 |
| oerheks | a simple paperclip works fine | 21:32 |
| oerheks | from ear/ear to around your head | 21:32 |
| de-facto | i compared wearing FFP2 around ears and around head the whole day, honestly my ears did hurt where the strap goes around them (the place where also glasses would touch the ear) | 21:33 |
| de-facto | so for long term usage those rubber bands around the head are superior | 21:33 |
| Tuvix | I've got one of these, and was lucky enough to be gifted one of the first batch when this company went into production: https://breathe99.com/pages/technology | 21:34 |
| Tuvix | They had the design pre-COVID, but pivoted a little bit to a non-vented design when the pandemic hit. | 21:34 |
| de-facto | wow those are neat | 21:35 |
| Tuvix | The filter testing was done by a respected local state university engineering department, so it's at least better than the junk products that have come to market. | 21:35 |
| Tuvix | Yea, it's _really_ nice, and while I wouldn't say getting a reasonably airtight fit is "easy", it's also not all that hard. I just have to make sure the TPU around my nose fits well, othterwise if I'm sloppy I can feel it leak a bit. But if I roll the rubber-like ridge up a bit (one of their fit recommendations for this problem) and ensure enough strap tension, I can feel the air going in/out strictly | 21:36 |
| de-facto | no valves may be good, but also lead to filters becoming wet | 21:36 |
| Tuvix | through the filters. | 21:36 |
| Tuvix | Yes, they have sponge inserts to help with that, an addition they added maybe 6 to 10 months ago. | 21:36 |
| Tuvix | This: https://help.breathe99.com/portal/en/kb/articles/instructions-for-the-b2-mask-liner | 21:37 |
| Tuvix | And I have to say, as someone who had a bit of an issue with moisture buildup, it's a notable difference. | 21:37 |
| de-facto | so it may be usable in places that require valveless masks (to prevent contamination of the places) but also would lead to less filter efficacy sooner (by humidifying the filter fabric by exhaling through it, just as with most FFP2/3 (K)N95/99 too) | 21:37 |
| Tuvix | Yea, I don't think you solve the humidity problem without compromising the outflow filtering. They also have guidance for how often to replace the filters based on use-time, which may be related to faster loss of filter effectiveness in such situations. | 21:39 |
| Tuvix | I'm a rather light user of mine, although I did wear it for up to 2 or 3 hours a couple times a week back when I was in the sport's club indoor areas. | 21:39 |
| de-facto | "The B2 Mask is the result of 4+ years of human-centered product development, originally geared towards protection from air pollution, smog and wildfires. The B2 design was adapted during the Covid-19 pandemic, with the removal of the exhalation valve to cater for the growing respiratory protection needs of global citizens. | 21:39 |
| de-facto | " | 21:39 |
| Tuvix | Since I don't go there due to complete lack of policy or rules, I guess that problem solved itself :( | 21:39 |
| Tuvix | Yea, I think they quickly realized no one was going to want a filter with outflow valve for a while anyway. | 21:40 |
| de-facto | oh btw dont wash TPU with IPA, it makes it less flexible | 21:41 |
| de-facto | (by proxy experience) | 21:41 |
| de-facto | just use warm water and soap | 21:41 |
| de-facto | no alcohol | 21:41 |
| Tuvix | Yea, I just clean mine with water about every-other filter replacement, or whenever I feel it needs it. | 21:41 |
| Raf[m] | When I saw you talking about TPU I thought you meant TPU phone cases | 21:42 |
| Tuvix | Heh, I have one of those too :P | 21:42 |
| Tuvix | (which does zero good at filtering out what I breathe, by the way ;) | 21:42 |
| de-facto | Facepiece: FDA-compliant TPU and Polypropylene | Filters: Meltblown and Electrostatically-charged polypropylene | 21:46 |
| Tuvix | Yea, and the filters come in 2 options: standard (best protection) and "lite" which is probably not very useful for the pandemic (but maybe still some, for larger particles people emit when speaking, etc) with more airflow. | 21:48 |
| Tuvix | I don't know exactly why you'd want to use the lite ones in these times, but I guess it's an option for alternative use-cases. | 21:48 |
| Tuvix | Oh, I guess the standard they tested it under was _less_ strict as the NIOSH filtration. It just got independently tested to meet ASTM F2101. | 21:49 |
| LjL | <oerheks> a simple paperclip works fine <oerheks> from ear/ear to around your head ← that's the opposite of what i mean... i'd like a mask that uses ear strap (not behind-the-head strap) but that is *good*. most of them are no Auras at all, they're pretty bad | 21:50 |
| xx | places that are against proper masks with exhaust valves, yet allow people to wear any other mask under the nose, are the weirdest ones | 21:53 |
| Tuvix | You don't really want an outflow valve when the concern is both spread and infection. If you're the venue owner, you have your staff to think about, but yes, a surgical mask seems not to be nearly as effective, especially with Omicron's ability to spread more easily. | 21:55 |
| Tuvix | Some of those places might accept say a surgical mask over the fitted one with an outflow, but it's really up to the venue if they have specific requirements. | 21:55 |
| de-facto | well infection risk is the *product* of contamination rate of the place and filter efficacy for inhaling from it | 21:56 |
| Tuvix | There was talk about "double masking" in the US, but I haven't really heard that talked about for a while. It's really moot with Omicron anyway since cloth or surgical masks are of limited value. Better than nothing probably, but not fantastic. | 21:56 |
| de-facto | so best would be to enforce everyone to wear a valveless airtight fit | 21:57 |
| de-facto | and do air exchange rate appropriate for contamination rate | 21:57 |
| Tuvix | Right, you want to limit what you can at the source (the possibly contagious) to stop it from being in the air as much as possible, then as the wearer you want to reduce your odds that virus in the environment infects you. | 21:57 |
| de-facto | to reduce contamination level of the air, because contamination dose is the product of contamination rate and exposure time | 21:58 |
| Tuvix | That indoor club is such a disaster in all of those metrics :\ | 21:58 |
| Tuvix | Recirculating HVAC, the cheapest, most awful filters, no windows/doors open in winter for sure (and even summer when the aircon is on.) Maskless, and some unvaccinated people, and eating by day and eating+drinking after-hours. | 21:59 |
| de-facto | just cancel membership if they dont care about the health of their members | 22:01 |
| de-facto | and tell them why you do that | 22:01 |
| Tuvix | I'm a lifetime member, and I've made my concerns very clear. They just blow it off or the owner tells me she "can't ask staff to [test]" (even after they were a known close-contact for 1 to 3 hours to a positive case this summer.) | 22:02 |
| Tuvix | At this point the only recourse would basically be to go public with my complaints. | 22:02 |
| Tuvix | Like, see if I can get this picked up by a local news org or something; some of the emails are pretty… damming. | 22:02 |
| ublx | what club is this? | 22:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Forcing children to wear masks is dystopian, says Gruffalo author Julia Donaldson → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rz9cov/forcing_children_to_wear_masks_is_dystopian_says/ | 22:02 |
| Tuvix | private sports club, all-volunteer, and not subject to any rules. We don't have any effective regulation that would apply here in terms of national, state, or local restrictions. | 22:03 |
| ublx | hm | 22:03 |
| Tuvix | This place is absolutely going against all the medical guidance, but I've been told in-person that they don't "have" to do any of it. | 22:03 |
| Tuvix | The owner is literally afraid if she puts any requirements in place, all her key (and remember, volunteer) staff will refuse to show up. | 22:03 |
| de-facto | such places should be closed permanently imho, sorry. | 22:04 |
| ublx | considering that only indifferent and careless people will go to such a club.. i'd steer well clear | 22:05 |
| Tuvix | Yea, I'm just pissed. One of the "more experienced" instructors (in terms of this operation) put out an email to all staff to "warn" our "newer instructors" about the dangers of customers passing out if we required a mask (just a basic cloth or surgical mask.) He even bolded in his email the concern that lack of oxygen would cause the customers we take to pass out. | 22:05 |
| Tuvix | Just… so much false crap and stupidity, but I can't fight that much misinformation when the owners refuse to do anything about it. | 22:05 |
| de-facto | thats nonsense, one can train with masks and also open windows | 22:06 |
| de-facto | why else could i drive bicycle (fast) with an FFP3 without problems for many kilometers? | 22:06 |
| Tuvix | Exactly, and masks do not prevent O2 from getting to the blood, which is a awful myth continued to be spread by misinformation outlets pretending to be "news" here in the US. | 22:06 |
| de-facto | yeah | 22:07 |
| de-facto | its just a proxy argument for their "convenience" to refuse wearing masks | 22:07 |
| Tuvix | Not that surgical masks are great for this, but again, better than nothing. This shows how even an N95 mask doesn't cause that, at all, even during high heart-reat exertion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t2k2-xH5AU | 22:07 |
| de-facto | and i really am not a sporty person at all, i was a heavy chainsmoker till early 2020 | 22:08 |
| Tuvix | You are 100% correct, it's just excuse-BINGO. | 22:08 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for India: +148426 cases since 23 hours ago — United States: +916454 cases, +2197 deaths since 23 hours ago — Turkey: +64267 cases, +141 deaths, +418264 tests (15.4% positive) since 23 hours ago — Canada: +47513 cases, +30 deaths since 23 hours ago | 22:09 |
| Arsanerit | gas mask / elastomeric respirator? | 22:09 |
| de-facto | oh yeah i have an SPO2 meter too, i used it to measure while biking with all kinds of masks, it always was even *better* saturation (98-99%) than when i was sitting at my desk at home (95%-97%) | 22:10 |
| ublx | an FFP3 while cycling hard? will you not be fairly well blowing the mask away from your face during exhalation? | 22:10 |
| Tuvix | Yea, the fresh air does more than indoors I'd imagine, but the irony of that being with a mask on you is not lost on me either. | 22:10 |
| de-facto | surgical mask, FFP2 (the classic N95 style), FFP3 (one with very thick fabric, the other 3M style) | 22:10 |
| de-facto | nope not blowing it away | 22:11 |
| Tuvix | ublx: I'd not use one if I'm outdoors (running, I don't really bike, but when it's not snow-covered I go jogging 1-2x weekly in a state park near me) | 22:11 |
| Tuvix | Well, I'd still use one outdoors if it was a very crowded event, but I don't go to those :P | 22:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: COVID-positive nurses say they're being pressured to work while sick, and they're petrified of infecting patients → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/rz9mru/covidpositive_nurses_say_theyre_being_pressured/ | 22:12 |
| Tuvix | Unless it's a really crowded area, the dispersion into normal air is very good. I'm not worried about the random person or 2 I might cross paths with on my 5 km jog. I'm far more concerned about the packed grocery store, standing in line next to countless unmasked, possibly unvaccinated individuals. | 22:12 |
| Tuvix | normal, *outdoor* air, to be clear. | 22:13 |
| de-facto | if the mask does not have much "dead volume" (e.g. between face and mask filter) compared to average breathing volume it does not really mix much exhaled air with inhaled air on each breathing cycle | 22:14 |
| de-facto | and since particle masks do not filter gases (only particles) of course they do not lower oxygen update, as long as airflow rate through their surface allows for required breathing rates (e.g. when bicycling or such) | 22:15 |
| Arsanerit | Do gas masks (elastomeric respirators) lower oxygen intake? | 22:16 |
| Tuvix | Yea, and that's what the anti-mask believers don't understand. They've been lied to by con-men who may even know this is false and dangerous themselves, but tell it to the public to advance their agenda. | 22:16 |
| de-facto | all masks i have used so far do not require much pressure to force the air with sufficient rates through their filter fabrics, hence are suitable even for heavy body work | 22:16 |
| Tuvix | (that was in reply to de-facto, not the gas masks.) You don't want to wear a gas mask for COVID, so it's a bit of a non sequitur there. | 22:16 |
| Arsanerit | I have met anti-vaxxers but not anti-maskers | 22:17 |
| Arsanerit | Tuvix: Would an elastomeric respirator offer worse protection than an FFP2/FFP3 mask? I thought they added an extra layer of protection (just short of full PAPR)? | 22:18 |
| Tuvix | de-facto: Yea, this is another thing that pisses me off. The owner is pretty anti-mask too, and she sent out this email that basically lamented how hard masks are to wear when she's doing some rather light-to-mid physical work (moving equipment around, nothing over say 20 kg) and how "hard it was to breathe" and how it's just unnecessary when you're 10 m or more away. | 22:18 |
| Tuvix | Arsanerit: Probably, but again, they're not needed here, and if you think it's hard enough now to get people to wear *any* mask (even though they really should be using KN95 at minimum) you can't imagine how much dancing you'll need to do to get everyone going shopping to wear a gas mask… | 22:19 |
| Tuvix | It's not required, but I have no idea if there's a chance in the O2 intake. I'd imagine not for the quality equipment, since gas masks are a contingency plan for military and other "critical" users. | 22:19 |
| Arsanerit | Tuvix: Oh, not everyone. Just not-very-seriously been wondering about it for myself. | 22:19 |
| Tuvix | change in* | 22:20 |
| de-facto | its a prejudice and a subjective feeling (most people are not used to breathing through a mask), even my parents were hard to convince to wear FFP3 instead of surgical, just because they assumed they "would not get enough air" | 22:20 |
| de-facto | its not a rational thinking, its a subjective feeling for many people i guess | 22:21 |
| Tuvix | Right, and that's what the owner's email was in this case, an whining about the slight extra resistance to air intake. But it had the effect she wanted, of turning everyone there against the idea of bringing bask mask requirements indoors. | 22:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Science: science: Dry oven heat can disinfect N95 COVID masks. method that uses dry ovens can disinfect N95 masks for reuse in settings where new masks may not be available, a new study shows. → https://old.reddit.com/r/science/comments/rz9zyq/dry_oven_heat_can_disinfect_n95_covid_masks/ | 22:22 |
| de-facto | honestly i had that feeling too at the begin, i just thought, well ok lets try this out, i can take it off anytime, so why not just "make an experiment" and gain some experience with it | 22:22 |
| Tuvix | She _wanted_ to seed that so that everyone who was on the fence would refuse to wear them. And the claim now is that since we can "maintain distance" it's all okay indoors. It's basically one big room with closed windows/doors and no fresh air intake, maybe 12m x 20m in size. | 22:22 |
| de-facto | how else would i be able to experience the limits? (i have not found any so far, except for non-airtight fit blowing into my own eyes is quite annoying and wearing with straps behind the ears for extended amounts of time it hurts a bit after a while) | 22:22 |
| de-facto | but no limitations due to filter fabric so far i could find | 22:23 |
| Tuvix | Yup, the most I noticed with the TPU-form mask I have is that if I'm really bad/lazy about filter changes, they do seem to get a little bit less comfortable to breathe through, but that really means I'm overdue for a filter change. | 22:23 |
| Tuvix | And sure, if the fit is bad I can feel some air leakage, but that just means I haven't fitted it properly to begin with. | 22:24 |
| Arsanerit | Is it really true that if my glasses fog up, it means the mask is not tight and therefore useless? My glasses sometimes fog up without any mask... | 22:24 |
| de-facto | distance indoors does not prevent infection with aerosol, unless its a LOT of distance, 10s of meters and more | 22:24 |
| de-facto | 2 meters distance does NOT prevent infection indoors | 22:24 |
| de-facto | not at all | 22:24 |
| Arsanerit | de-facto: depends on exposure time? | 22:24 |
| de-facto | yes | 22:24 |
| Tuvix | Yea, I know, and Omicron is really bad at this. | 22:25 |
| Tuvix | Well, exposure time yes, but we're talking on the order of just a couple of minutes possibly if you're right next to someone and your're both not wearing masks. | 22:25 |
| Arsanerit | Corona-Warn-App only warns when it's longer than that, unless I've missed an update. | 22:25 |
| Tuvix | If just 1 of you has a _good_ mask (fitted, ie: not cloth or surgical) your protection goes up, but you really want BOTH people masked to improve the odds. | 22:25 |
| Tuvix | Well, and only works if they have the app too, and their phone is with them and on. | 22:26 |
| Arsanerit | I've been warned twice by the Corona-Warn-App. | 22:26 |
| Arsanerit | Once after a train journey, and another time after queuing in the drive-through for a PCR test. | 22:26 |
| de-facto | Arsanerit, well if your glasses fog up it means you exhale air onto them, therefore your mask would not have an airtight fit around the edges (most likely left and right to the nose), so that means to a certain degree it will be less effective, and depending on how much leakage it got it may well be an *order* of magnitude less effective as it could be (with airtight fit) | 22:26 |
| de-facto | its still better than no mask of course thouhg | 22:26 |
| Tuvix | It is worth taking a short time to get a good fit on your mask, at least if you want the best protection for yourself and for those around you. | 22:27 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.pnas.org/content/118/49/e2110117118 " An upper bound on one-to-one exposure to infectious human respiratory particles | PNAS" | 22:27 |
| de-facto | Arsanerit, ^^ | 22:27 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.pnas.org: An upper bound on one-to-one exposure to infectious human respiratory particles | PNAS | 22:27 |
| Arsanerit | I try, but I don't succeed in stopping my glasses from fogging up with a mask when it's cold outside. | 22:27 |
| de-facto | LjL, can we take that one into zotero? | 22:27 |
| LjL | I think it's in there, I put it in yesterday | 22:28 |
| Tuvix | At least as decent of a fit as you can. For non-reusable masks, they're going to loose fit over time, and eventually you should replace it. That'll depend on how much use you've given it, how abuse you were (did it get excessively wet a number of times, or dirty?), and how worn the straps become. | 22:28 |
| de-facto | Arsanerit, there are some masks with foam around the nose fit, those are much better at airtight fits | 22:29 |
| de-facto | e.g. 3M ones etc | 22:29 |
| Arsanerit | de-facto: I wear 3M ones | 22:29 |
| de-facto | nut also some (K)N95 style ones have those foams recently | 22:29 |
| de-facto | *but | 22:29 |
| Arsanerit | I use 3M Aura 9320+ FFP2 | 22:29 |
| de-facto | very good | 22:29 |
| Arsanerit | But when it's cold outside I still get foggy glasses | 22:30 |
| Arsanerit | despite my best attempts to get a good fit | 22:30 |
| Arsanerit | Not as foggy as with previous FFP2 masks I tried though | 22:30 |
| de-facto | yeah try to only wear them indoors and maybe outdoors another one | 22:30 |
| de-facto | so you have them fresh and dry with full filter efficacy when you arrive | 22:30 |
| critr | heh, they shoul make glasses lens heaters. | 22:30 |
| de-facto | but yeah today during shopping i also just let it stay, was too much hassle to take it off and on in front of every shop | 22:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: New variant discovered in Cyprus (Deltacron) → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rza1i0/new_variant_discovered_in_cyprus_deltacron/ | 22:31 |
| Arsanerit | I admit that I'm violating mask mandates in the circumstance when I'm alone (or very far from others) on an outdoor train platform | 22:31 |
| de-facto | LjL, thanks | 22:32 |
| Tuvix | Oh, I wouldn't worry too much outdoors unless you're unable to stay a few meters away from people. But yea, if there's a local requirement for that, I'm not saying it's a good idea to needlessly violate that. I just don't think it's very useful. | 22:32 |
| de-facto | its in there | 22:32 |
| Tuvix | The flip side of this is that governments also don't want people in _crowded_ areas outdoors, which can be a source of spread. Think the NYE party in Times Square in NYC. | 22:33 |
| Arsanerit | Tuvix: When I'm making a long train journey, during changes I tend to go to the end of an open platform and use the time to eat and drink. | 22:33 |
| Tuvix | It's hard to say "no masks unless you have more than <X> people in <Y> square meters" so sometimes rules have to be set somewhere as a bare-minimum. | 22:33 |
| Arsanerit | I've seen people putting an open bottle in front of them as an excuse to not wear a mask properly on the train, when the ticket checker comes they say they just took off their mask for eating/drinking. | 22:34 |
| de-facto | Arsanerit, yeah i do the same, thats a good idea imho | 22:34 |
| Tuvix | Yea, and it would be really crappy for an enforcement officer to fine you for that, IMO. Maybe they'd be within their rights to do so, but it would seem slimey. | 22:34 |
| critr | any public rgulations have to be kept simple. | 22:34 |
| Arsanerit | But when a journey is long on the same train, I have to drink at some point. | 22:34 |
| de-facto | the going to the end of the platform is a good idea i do too, not the bottle in front indoors | 22:34 |
| de-facto | i never take the mask of, not even for a fraction of a second | 22:35 |
| de-facto | off | 22:35 |
| Arsanerit | My wife took the train from Paris to Frankfurt this week. Between Paris and Strasbourg it was prohibited to take off the mask for eating (and restaurant wagon was closed), between Strasbourg and Frankfurt this was allowed (and restaurant wagon was open for vaccinated people) | 22:35 |
| squirrel | btw about masks. i remember stumbling upon a study that shows that masks do reduce blood oxygen levels. how do the newer studies that refute that explain it? | 22:35 |
| de-facto | masks do not reduce blood oxygen levels, thats a myth | 22:36 |
| Tuvix | squirrel: That is a myth, and a study that says otherwise for N95-style masks do _not_ reduce oxygen. You think those performing medical surgery would compromise their oxygen and risk passing out? You were lied to by any studies that say otherwise. | 22:36 |
| de-facto | we just discussed that in detail above | 22:36 |
| Tuvix | squirrel: If you missed it, watch this in full: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t2k2-xH5AU | 22:37 |
| squirrel | so they address the studies and say that what. that the data is fabricated? | 22:37 |
| de-facto | what studies? | 22:37 |
| squirrel | i guess this is one https://scielo.isciii.es/pdf/neuro/v19n2/3.pdf | 22:39 |
| de-facto | did they had a control group? | 22:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Omicron’s spread drives the global daily average of known new cases past a staggering 2 million. → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rzaerz/omicrons_spread_drives_the_global_daily_average/ | 22:40 |
| de-facto | performing a surgery is a stress situation with and without masks, so did they compare scenarios where the only difference was wearing / not wearing a mask but everything else exactly the same? | 22:42 |
| Tuvix | Looks to me like the only control the specify without masks was very short duration events, so they're already stacking the deck against ethical and honest results (p122, PDF page 2) | 22:42 |
| Tuvix | And the sample size is excessively low even for that. | 22:42 |
| Tuvix | squirrel: Those 2 facts alone give me great pause to consisder this worth any value as a study, but I'm still going through the information. Meanwhile, I really hope you're watching that video I linked with a 65-year old women who gets her heart rate up to 160 bpm wearing an N95 mask. | 22:43 |
| Tuvix | Don't tell me you're in worse shape than a mid 60's gal? :P | 22:43 |
| Tuvix | Their introduction also has really unscientific language you just don't see in proper scientific studies. Phrases like "it seems reasoanble that [insert nonsense theory that's been debunked time and time again]" | 22:44 |
| Tuvix | This is a *reall* bad paper squirrel. Dreadful. | 22:44 |
| Tuvix | really* | 22:44 |
| Tuvix | They talk about "heat" and "moisture" trapping. Gasses are orders of magnitude smaller than moisture, which is condensed water vapor that is in the form of dropplets. | 22:45 |
| Tuvix | This paper is full of multiple mistakes per paragraph. To be as blunt as I can: it's bullshit. | 22:45 |
| squirrel | i wasn't arguing any point of view, i just thought new studies ought to reference old studies, however poor | 22:47 |
| de-facto | "In the group of surgeons who did not wear masks during primary care operations with duration of less than 30 minutes, preoperational saturation values were 97.6±0.2 while post operational values decreased to 96.3±0.3 (p=0.0006)." | 22:47 |
| de-facto | thats a very very small difference, in my experience values do vary much more than that in reality | 22:48 |
| Tuvix | So, they're both getting enough oxygen? I hadn't gotten that far yet… | 22:48 |
| de-facto | e.g. several percent for different scenarios | 22:48 |
| Tuvix | And yes, I have variations like that while NOT wearing a mask at home, at my desk. | 22:48 |
| de-facto | they compared 5 vs 9 surgeons, thats not statistically significant at all | 22:49 |
| de-facto | and the rest is only comparing the stress of operations, because all of them did wear a mask during that | 22:49 |
| de-facto | so in my opinion that study there has not claim at all | 22:49 |
| Tuvix | And meaningless at the changes you cited. They even go so far as to admit that the physical work and stress is a factor. Hell, I have that change sitting here now. | 22:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: For many in the U.S., getting tested means long waits or digging deeper into the wallet. → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rzalq2/for_many_in_the_us_getting_tested_means_long/ | 22:50 |
| squirrel | you know, maybe this study is indeed too bad to even mention it heh. | 22:51 |
| Tuvix | Yet you brought it up, seemingly to try and make your point. | 22:51 |
| Tuvix | Perhaps read these studies yourself, cover to cover, and use some critical thinking first. | 22:51 |
| Tuvix | Debunking some of this will require at least a fundamental undersatnding of physics and the world around you, like my points above that water-dropplets are larger than gas particles. | 22:52 |
| de-facto | they even admit it themselves "Surgical masks may impose some measurable airway resistance, but it seems doubtful if this significantly increases the process of breathing" | 22:52 |
| Arsanerit | Surely they have to increase resistance if they filter anything, pretty much by definition? | 22:53 |
| Tuvix | Right, but the question is if that has an impact on the oxygen delivered to the blood, which is what we care about. | 22:53 |
| Tuvix | Provided you don't have some pre-existing condition that causes you to already struggle to get air (in which case you're not going to be a surgen to begin with!) that answer is "no" and has been shown to be that way time and time again. | 22:54 |
| squirrel | Tuvix: i wasn't trying to make any point | 22:54 |
| squirrel | and posting it here worked just as well | 22:55 |
| ublx | i bet wearing FFP2/3 for a 12 hour shift is tiring though, and that some surgeons work some crazy long hours | 22:56 |
| Tuvix | Um, that reads to me like you're lazy and wanted other people to read and think critically for you. I'm a tad insulted, but I guess also would rather see this than ask facebook or something :\ | 22:56 |
| de-facto | oh i just read my cite above again, they only compare pre with post operational, they do NOT even compare mask wearers with non-mask wearers | 22:57 |
| de-facto | wtf? what is this study even about then? | 22:57 |
| squirrel | yes, i wanted exactly that. not sure why that insults you, wasn't my intention | 22:57 |
| de-facto | i think this is complete garbage, they did not even compare wearing a mask with not wearing a mask, they compared pre-operation saturation with post-operation values | 22:58 |
| critr | squirrel, it's very helpful to develop a good bs detector on the internet, as elsewhere. | 22:58 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Albania: +1801 cases, +4 deaths since 20 hours ago — Malawi: +631 cases, +4 deaths, +2002 tests (31.5% positive) since 23 hours ago — Monaco: +135 cases since 23 hours ago — Sierra Leone: +23 cases, +1 deaths since a day ago | 22:59 |
| Tuvix | de-facto: Yea, and unless I haven't found it yet, I don't think any of the groups besides #1 even had a non-mask group, ie: lack of control in addition to getting fundamental physics grossly wrong. | 22:59 |
| Tuvix | Oh, "during primary care operations with duration of less than 30 minutes" -- so they're *changing* what that so-called "control" group is even doing. | 22:59 |
| de-facto | i am not against doing research on that, but only with open result and honest study designs | 22:59 |
| squirrel | critr: asking people around is a great way to detect bs | 23:01 |
| Tuvix | squirrel: Also, you really didn't look very hard to find real, honest papers that refute this, did you? I found one in the top-5 results of my search. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-99100-7 | 23:01 |
| squirrel | Tuvix: i really didn't have any agenda here | 23:02 |
| squirrel | you can keep thinking that if you want, but i really didn't | 23:02 |
| Tuvix | Page 2 here. | 23:02 |
| Tuvix | This is very important to read: | 23:03 |
| Tuvix | "Deliberate misinformation often uses common knowledge to tell an allegedly fact-based story. Some social | 23:03 |
| Tuvix | media accounts connected heavier breathing while wearing FFR with the false claim to reduce blood oxygen | 23:03 |
| Tuvix | saturation. Indeed, respiration behavior (amongst others, frequency and intensity, see37 for a review) changes | 23:03 |
| Tuvix | while wearing an FFR (especially during exercise), and the physical dead volume of the respiratory system causes | 23:03 |
| Tuvix | breathing to be more strenuous38" | 23:03 |
| Tuvix | Sorry, bad paste :( | 23:03 |
| Tuvix | (continuing from the above) | 23:03 |
| Tuvix | "However, there is no evidence that wearing face masks (cloth/surgical masks or FFR) causes the blood oxygen levels to diminish22–24,26,27,29. Nevertheless, the literature lacks investigations tailored to quantify the impact of face masks, especially high filtering N95 FFR, on cognitive performance. We contribute to this research to refute misinformation and face worries regarding a connection between | 23:04 |
| Tuvix | cognitive functioning and wearing N95 FFR" | 23:04 |
| Tuvix | squirrel: I found that more legit article with a google search for: myth masks oxygen Beder Büyükkoçak Keskil | 23:04 |
| Tuvix | Just to help make the magic I'm using more obvious, I realized the original article was almost surely wrong and a bad-faith paper, if not funded on purpose to create more misinformation about this topic, so I added "myth" to see if there was a paper that cited the original's obviously sloppy design. | 23:05 |
| Tuvix | Then I added "masks" and "oxygen" as keywords that should be included, plus the names of the "researchers" on the original. | 23:05 |
| Tuvix | I also picked one from a reputable publisher, although that's not a 100% sure way to exclude incorrect information, but it often goes a long ways (remember, pre-prints and other un-verified, non-peer-reviewed, or studies that haven't been reproduced are not as strong as others.) | 23:06 |
| critr | squirrel, physical reality is the final arbiter. your senses and clear reasoning power are the best connection to that. other people can only be believed insofar as they are in contact with physical reality. | 23:07 |
| squirrel | hum, was there a reason to hate on masks in 2008? | 23:07 |
| squirrel | critr: nah i'm stupid | 23:08 |
| Tuvix | Misinformation is not limited to the COVID-19 era, no. | 23:08 |
| Tuvix | It's just found more popularity thanks to a combination of current events, social media, and some politicians going along with it for their own personal gains. | 23:08 |
| Tuvix | This is of course all the more reason to think critically when you encounter information, and *ESPECIALLY* information you agree with. | 23:09 |
| squirrel | look | 23:09 |
| Tuvix | Confirmation bias is a real thing too, and you should subject your review of information you may agree with to an even higher standard of care. | 23:09 |
| squirrel | i r e a l l y didn't come here with any anti-mask sentiment | 23:09 |
| squirrel | swear on my mom's name | 23:09 |
| Tuvix | And here's the deal, I'm telling you all this to try and equip you to review information better next time, not to claim you were an anti-mask troll (if I thought you were that, I'd have called you out as such by now.) | 23:10 |
| squirrel | i have a whole box of the damn masks | 23:10 |
| Tuvix | I just think you were duped by the original article's "science-like phrasing", that's all. The rest is a couple of us reviewing and debunking the entier thing as a farse, or as the Nature.com pulication calls it, "deliberate misinfromation" | 23:13 |
| Tuvix | (then me trying to show you how I found that article which very bluntly calls out the original for what it is) | 23:13 |
| Tuvix | Problem is it's very hard to have a real study that is both aware of the bad information and so directly refute it. Someone else paid a lot of money (by the underwriters of the Spang & Pieper study I linked) to not only include a summary of it in their paper, but then go onto debunk why it was bad information and discuss the motives behind these kind of things. | 23:15 |
| lastshell | I know is weird but when I felt tired I just go outside and let the sun blastme, and I felt better | 23:15 |
| Tuvix | Just imagine if we had to pay a team of scientists to debunk every stupid thing the ex-POTUS Trump said… | 23:15 |
| Tuvix | Like, drinking bleach, for example. We can all probably use our brains and realize that ingesting bleach as a "clensing" is dangerous and could harm or even kill you. We don't need a bloody paper for that! (I hope…) | 23:16 |
| lastshell | yeah trump was the king of memes | 23:16 |
| Tuvix | I'd have said the same about a horse de-worming agent too, but then we all know how that one turned out :\ | 23:16 |
| Tuvix | He was the king of lies and misinformation. And sadly a former US president too :( | 23:17 |
| lastshell | for some reason i feel worst when I laid down | 23:17 |
| squirrel | (i really didn't read past the abstract) | 23:18 |
| lastshell | honestly also biden screw things | 23:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: Impact of COVID-19 on new-onset type 1 diabetes mellitus - A one-year prospective study → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/rzbaha/impact_of_covid19_on_newonset_type_1_diabetes/ | 23:18 |
| lastshell | I thing both trump and biden didn't have the knowledge or capacity to control covid | 23:19 |
| Tuvix | Sure, the current admin has made missteps too, but he hasn't intentionally lied to the public, which is at least progress. | 23:19 |
| Tuvix | Trump early on intended to downplay the whole thing to the public, even when he knew how bad it was going to get; he literally said so in an on-the-record interview with Woodword. | 23:19 |
| Tuvix | That's not a leader; that's a liar. | 23:19 |
| lastshell | people don't trust the cdc, heck they even laugh o them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrtpAUgb7_Y | 23:19 |
| lastshell | sorry wrong link this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgK8p50uLik | 23:20 |
| Tuvix | They're in a hard position given how much of the public (or at least the very vocal ones) are against the idea of any mitigations measures against COVID. But indeed, the CDC has made a number of PR and messaging mistakes, such as explicitly recommending the public not mask early on when it likely could have helped as part of the containment plan. | 23:21 |
| xx | a fair point, why isn't CDC selling merch yet? | 23:21 |
| xx | I'd get a t-shirt | 23:21 |
| lastshell | yeah when they CDC didn't recommend mask I was confuse | 23:21 |
| Tuvix | The CDC is actually quite good at the science aspect of it, and a number of experts has pointed out how the CDC Director is actually quite good at delivering purely-science based messages. It's when she's asked to talk about more politics or social aspects that she seems to fall short, as does much of the public messaging. | 23:22 |
| xx | Tuvix: and especially when comparing it to previous flu seasons, when the cdc did recommend masking up (but everyone non-asian of course ignored it) | 23:22 |
| Tuvix | I have to admit I was less interested in masking early on in part because of the CDC messaging, and in part due to lack of reliable information on how effective it was really going to be in practice, given that you're asking non-medical personell to do so. I completely changed my mind though in the fall of 2020, and became a huge advocate of masking indoors during high-spread areas of outbreak. | 23:24 |
| Tuvix | However, I'm also not stubborn enough to refuse emerging science as we learn more information. I made a decision originally based on available information, and opted to change it as new information was presented and we had the benefit of more time to review the impacts various mitigations had. | 23:25 |
| squirrel | how did they study the effectiveness of the masks? | 23:25 |
| xx | mechanistic data shows 100% effectiveness (they put masks on manequins), but real world use is more problematic because humans have stupid faces and don't use proper masks and don't use them correctly either, and handle them in a poor way too | 23:27 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: High schoolers in High Point, Greensboro (NC) to not have access to school buses for next two weeks → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rzbfcx/high_schoolers_in_high_point_greensboro_nc_to_not/ | 23:28 |
| lastshell | kind of like in theory works but in practice no always | 23:28 |
| xx | good thing we've had at least 2 years to prepare for schooling from home, so not having busses shouldn't be a problem anymore | 23:28 |
| Tuvix | Meanwhile Chicago's school district is refusing to do at-home learning while the teachers are not showing up until some of their concerns are met. | 23:29 |
| Tuvix | It's a mess, but largely because of the overlap of politics and lack of clear communication. | 23:29 |
| squirrel | i just can't think of any good way to tests effectiveness of masks in isolation that would translate well into real world with half of population ignoring the rules | 23:29 |
| Tuvix | Well, yes, that's the problem. If you missed it, a study was linked above that's a modeling of how effective masks are when worn by neither, one, or both people, and compares that to the impact of "distancing" | 23:30 |
| critr | squirrel, have you tried researching some of your own questions on the internet? duckduckgo is your friend. | 23:30 |
| Tuvix | The tl;dr is that a single user wearing a quality mask does indeed improve outcomes, but not even an order of magnitude; if BOTH parties wear quality masks, the protection is several orders of magnitude greater. | 23:31 |
| Tuvix | In other words, you are always better off yourself wearing a mask in risky, or potentially-risky encounters, but if you're going to spend time with others you don't 100% trust in terms of vaccination, the risks they take, and their social circles of contact, you really should both mask up. | 23:32 |
| squirrel | critr: please use /ignore | 23:32 |
| Tuvix | squirrel: This is a mild pattern of behavior; back on Dec-22 you tried to argue with me that we should have more data about how fatal Omicron is, when that data is really not even yet available in aggregate given the delay. The push-back you're getting, again today, is due to a seeming patter of asking open-ended questions then arguing with the information you get combined with a seeming lack of interest | 23:33 |
| Tuvix | to learn how to equip yourself to at least ask some more useful questions. | 23:33 |
| Tuvix | Asking if a "study" predicated on disinformation is less useful, for example, than having read it and asking "so I found <this> study that goes against most other current studies and what doctors are saying. They made claims <A> and <B> but I can't tell how accurate this study was; how can I learn more about how reliable this is?" | 23:35 |
| Tuvix | But you didn't do that, later admitting you never read past the abstract and that it was "easier" to let several of us waste a great deal of our day to spoon-feed you information. This is why you're getting called out. | 23:35 |
| Tuvix | http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#idm379 | 23:36 |
| squirrel | called out on what, asking a question that wasn't really researched? | 23:36 |
| squirrel | is that something that i have to "admit" doing? | 23:36 |
| Tuvix | The quote that applies from that paragrpah would be, "Don't waste your time, or ours, on crude primate politics. Instead, present the background facts and your question as clearly as you can. That is a better way to position yourself than by grovelling." | 23:36 |
| Tuvix | This is not the first time you've done this, and used confrontational tactics to get answers. And I'm not interested in getting into a detailed argument with you on this point either, given how much time I've just given you today, agagain. | 23:37 |
| squirrel | the whole "confrontation" part is me just saying repeatedly that i didn't come here with any anti-mask agenda. yes i did ask a question without doing research, but it wasn't a question that demands research from the reader. i am not sure but it seemed to me that this study (or maybe more like it) were a known thing among antivaxers so i assumed it would be also well know here since this thing comes up once in a while. so i | 23:44 |
| squirrel | hoped it would be a "quick question". | 23:44 |
| squirrel | as for omicron, that wasn't what i asked | 23:44 |
| Tuvix | I'm not talking about the masks either. | 23:44 |
| Tuvix | 2021-12-22 15:09 < squirrel> to this day they can't figure out how deadly omicron is | 23:44 |
| Tuvix | Then later, after I explain WHY we don't have that, you responded: | 23:45 |
| Tuvix | 2021-12-22 15:22 < squirrel> Tuvix: it makes no sense to have the data you mention and not be able to tell how omicron is deadly | 23:45 |
| squirrel | care to post the next message? | 23:45 |
| squirrel | oh, this things has logs. so the whole sentence would be, | 23:46 |
| squirrel | <squirrel> to this day they can't figure out how deadly omicron is | 23:46 |
| squirrel | <squirrel> but they seem to be pretty sure about the efficacy of various vaccine dose combinations with it | 23:46 |
| Tuvix | These are very different things, as discussed then. | 23:47 |
| squirrel | indeed they are. so please don't pick individual messages out of context | 23:48 |
| Tuvix | You pushed, *MULTIPLE* times demanding to know data we did not have, and then related it to something that we can have data for. | 23:49 |
| Tuvix | Obviously we can't have data before it exists. This is not out of context becuase there were more times you demanded to know what the impact of *death* specifically from Omicron was, before we've had enough death to meaningfully answer that question. Vaccination effectiveness can be measured, at least in terms of labs that evaluate how effective antibody responses and, perhaps more criticall, the amount | 23:50 |
| Tuvix | of antibodies required to neutralize the virus is. | 23:50 |
| Tuvix | The common metric of how "different" a related family of viruses are would be to evalaute the impact of antibodies on the virus and what it takes to effective combat them (I have a citation for you if you really want a multi-page paper on this.) | 23:51 |
| xx | why even care about omicron is more or less deadly - you really want a virus to enter your body? | 23:52 |
| Tuvix | Omicron is "very different" by that regard, well outside the metric set to define a closely related set of strains within a related family, and notably different using the standard set for flu vaccines. This, of course, is all unrealted to how "deadly" (ie: fatal, involving death) that you asked about multiple times back then. Then got seemingly upset when you couldn't be given a quick answer. | 23:52 |
| Tuvix | xx: Well, risk of not recovering aside, the lasting effects we don't even really understand yet, much less know how bad those will be over a lifetime. | 23:52 |
| xx | well, what I meant by that is that people shouldn't want any virus to enter their body, irrelevant of how severe it may be | 23:53 |
| xx | I never provided consent for any live virus to enter my body | 23:53 |
| xx | so whenever it did, it did it without my consent | 23:54 |
| squirrel | what i was saying was, that either you have data on how bad omicron is and have data on how well vaccines make it less bad, or you don't have data on how bad omicron is and also have no data n how well vaccines make it less bad. what i asked was, how come we know how vaccines make omicron less bad, while we don't how bad it is in the first place. | 23:54 |
| Tuvix | To a point; chicken pox is perhaps an exception in many cultures, since getting it later in life can be far more serious. Of course, that virus is also known to cause shingles later in life which we've only recently (recent decades) become more aware of enough to studty. | 23:54 |
| de-facto | squirrel, one problem we already do see with Omicron is that hospitalizations rise the same was as infections with Omicron do, so in that regard its very problematic already | 23:55 |
| xx | Tuvix: kids get vaccinated against chickenpox these days | 23:55 |
| de-facto | on real severity we just dont really have reliable data yet, e.g. how many of those will eventually end up on ICU etc | 23:55 |
| de-facto | that is because Omicron is so contagious that it spreads crazy fast, meaning in uneven clusters, not in averaged out community transmission | 23:56 |
| squirrel | ...but then people say things like "you demanded to know what the impact of *death* specifically from Omicron was" and since i of course did no such things i got a bit annoyed | 23:57 |
| de-facto | so the groups that previously ended up in ICU or grave with Delta may simply not have been reached yet by Omicron diffusing through the community because infection dynamics did not had enough time to average out | 23:57 |
| Tuvix | squirrel: You asked how deadly it is. If we talk about how many "deadly shootings" there were in a country, obviously this is about death. | 23:57 |
| Tuvix | I literally quoted you as saying that, and now you are, for a 3rd time in as many weeks, turning this into a big argument. | 23:58 |
| Tuvix | Unless this is some less-than-deadly meaning of the word deadly I'm not familiar with? | 23:58 |
| squirrel | am *i* turning this into an argument? | 23:58 |
| Tuvix | deadly (adj.) causing or able to cause death; a deadly wewapon. | 23:58 |
| squirrel | you brought it up again | 23:58 |
| Tuvix | "… and since i of course did no such [thing] i got a bit annoyed" | 23:59 |
| critr | fwiw, it's a waste of time to try to reason with people wiith cognitive deficiencies. | 23:59 |
| Tuvix | critr: Apparently; my mistake for trying to provide a baseline change for the next inquiry that'll inevitably come up :( | 23:59 |
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