| Brainstorm | Updates for India: +180438 cases since 18 hours ago — Vietnam: +23181 cases, +202 deaths, +92439 tests (25.1% positive) since a day ago — Brazil: +24382 cases since 22 hours ago — Lebanon: +4780 cases, +16 deaths since a day ago | 00:07 |
|---|---|---|
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Tianjin, a major Chinese port city near the capital Beijing, began mass testing of its 14 million residents on Sunday after a cluster of 20 children and adults tested positive for COVID-19, including at least two with the omicron variant → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s042n6/tianjin_a_major_chinese_port_city_near_the/ | 00:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: U.S. sends states monoclonal antibodies that may not work against omicron → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s04al2/us_sends_states_monoclonal_antibodies_that_may/ | 00:30 |
| ublx | <xx> | back during the volcano, not a single plane would have fallen out of the sky, it simply increased maintenance costs | 00:43 |
| ublx | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_009 | 00:43 |
| ublx | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KLM_Flight_867#Engine_failure | 00:43 |
| ublx | xx: you have a hilariously deranged view of aviation industry standards of safety and behaviour if you think anyone is going to yolo an airliner through an ash cloud on the off chance that all the engines are going to restart | 00:44 |
| xx | well they didn't fall out of the sky, did they? | 00:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Cruise Ships Continue Docking with Positive Covid-19 Cases in South Florida → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s04r8b/cruise_ships_continue_docking_with_positive/ | 00:49 |
| xx | and because it would have been known before the flight that there's an increased concentration of ash particulates, proper measures would have been put in place, which would cost more | 00:49 |
| xx | similarly with further maintenance after every flight, which too would increase costs | 00:49 |
| ublx | both those examples lost all their engines. in one of the examples it explicitly states that all the engines were written off | 00:49 |
| xx | nothing about it had anything to do with passenger safety, all of it was purely money-based | 00:49 |
| ublx | you'd be hard pressed to come up with an example of an industry anywhere on earth more professionally devoted to safety than the aviation industry | 00:50 |
| xx | you'd be surprised how much cost-cutting they get away with still | 00:51 |
| ublx | but ok, lets say they just up and decide that flying though ash clouds is the way to go | 00:51 |
| ublx | you're off your head on this one | 00:51 |
| xx | if aviation industry were more devoted to safety, then this whole covid thing wouldn't be a thing | 00:51 |
| xx | people can't reasonably walk/drive/train/ship across continents in under a day | 00:52 |
| xx | every single covid variant has spread by airlines | 00:52 |
| ublx | well that's rather a different angle, and one worth highlighting i suppose. but if that is your argument, you harm it by suggesting that the avoidance of ash clouds is primarily an economic concern | 00:55 |
| dTal | yeah the ash cloud thing is straight ludicrous | 00:56 |
| dTal | it's totally fucking rational to, you know, not fly airliners through ash clouds thus destroying their engines in a single flight | 00:57 |
| xx | the ash cloud has not produced concentrations that'd be of concern according to standards, and has not been detected at typical flight altitudes | 01:03 |
| xx | so it'd only be a theoretical issue during takeoff and landing, and with the exception of UK for a while all airports would have been fine | 01:04 |
| xx | so it was an overreaction | 01:04 |
| dTal | what are you even arguing | 01:04 |
| dTal | they should have run flights through the ash clouds? | 01:04 |
| xx | that they shut down flights not out of concern for human safety, but to not have to pay for increased maintenance | 01:05 |
| xx | i.e. they care about machines more than humans | 01:05 |
| dTal | that's stupid | 01:05 |
| dTal | that inference doesn't follow | 01:05 |
| dTal | even if we grant your supposition that it was "just" a question of increased wear and tear, clearly it was unprofitable to run those flights | 01:06 |
| dTal | they should have flown aircraft through the ash clouds, ruining them, because... why? | 01:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Dignity Health OKs virus-positive workers as omicron strains Valley hospitals, test sites → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s059a9/dignity_health_oks_viruspositive_workers_as/ | 01:08 |
| ublx | "increased maintenance" is a funny way to spell "wholesale replacement of all the engines" | 01:08 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Argentina: +73319 cases, +27 deaths, +114225 tests (64.2% positive) since a day ago — Colombia: +30630 cases, +50 deaths, +105400 tests (29.1% positive) since a day ago — Uruguay: +5986 cases, +3 deaths since 23 hours ago — Tunisia: +2579 cases, +10 deaths since 23 hours ago | 01:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Science: science: Healthy diet associated with lower COVID-19 risk and severity - Harvard Health → https://old.reddit.com/r/science/comments/s05f26/healthy_diet_associated_with_lower_covid19_risk/ | 01:17 |
| xx | well I have yet to read a study that'd say "Unhealthy diet associated with lower X risk and severity" | 01:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: UK government urges all pregnant women to get immediate Covid jab → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s05ocj/uk_government_urges_all_pregnant_women_to_get/ | 01:27 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Universities on omicron: ‘Shelter in place,’ travel ban, online classes, delays → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s05w2o/universities_on_omicron_shelter_in_place_travel/ | 01:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Viruses evolve and weaken over time — what does that mean for the coronavirus? → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s061cu/viruses_evolve_and_weaken_over_time_what_does/ | 01:46 |
| LjL | ublx, dTal: in my opinion the futility of the "they didn't fly through ash due to economics" argument xx makes is shadowing the truth of "for a while, airplanes didn't fly over a substantial portion of the airplane-using world, and the sky didn't fall" | 01:50 |
| LjL | just today i saw a Ryan Air commercial advertising flights for €29 with "free flight change" | 01:50 |
| LjL | i mean, at this point, yes, Omicron is already everywhere, everything is already everywhere, so "might as well" | 01:51 |
| LjL | but look where that mindset brought us | 01:51 |
| LjL | we've *allowed* Delta, and then Omicron, through a pandemic. through a pandemic! because we didn't want to stop flying. | 01:51 |
| dTal | look it's really anoying when someone makes a point that may actually hold some water if you interpret it extremely generous, but they argue it in a really stupid way | 01:51 |
| LjL | or, to put it the way most people would put it, "because it would have been unthinkable to completely destroy an industry that was already paying a high price from the pandemic". (like most industries) | 01:52 |
| LjL | dTal, granted, so i'm rectifying that | 01:52 |
| dTal | you don't want to give them any ground because you're afraid they'll take your assent and run with it to assert the stupid aspect of their point | 01:52 |
| dTal | it's basically the entire problem with politics... | 01:53 |
| LjL | i think that sort of defensive arguing is what makes people run in circles when debating and eventually just yell at each other | 01:53 |
| LjL | i think one of the tricks should be to grant the grantable while making it clear what you're not granting | 01:53 |
| LjL | it's not exactly trivial to do, but hey, what else do you have to do? take a plane? | 01:53 |
| dTal | that's not always rhetorically possible | 01:54 |
| dTal | but yes you are correct | 01:54 |
| dTal | Regarding your actual point: I don't think it's helpful to shake our heads and bemoan the moral bankruptcy of the world. "Personal responsibility" is a stupid and dangerous mental tool to think about these things. One needs to think at a systems level. | 02:00 |
| dTal | Is it reasonable to expect airlines to stop flying during a pandemic? Is it even desirable? | 02:00 |
| dTal | Say that we somehow decide that it is desirable, and that the good outweighs the harm - not a given, by the way! Say we grant that. Now, by what mechanism to we expect that to occur? | 02:01 |
| dTal | Airlines are business. They are systems - machines - designed to manage cash flow, and they can't easily be "switched off". Should governments have banned them from conducting their business? Then they go bankrupt, the machine breaks, and can't be restarted. | 02:05 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Ecuador: +4288 cases, +7 deaths since 2 days ago — Norway: +4184 cases since 23 hours ago — Slovakia: +2572 cases since 23 hours ago — Egypt: +912 cases, +26 deaths since 23 hours ago | 02:06 |
| dTal | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airlines_impacted_by_the_COVID-19_pandemic | 02:07 |
| dTal | control-f "bankrupt" | 02:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Science: science: CEO narcissism linked to heightened workplace uncertainty amid the COVID-19 pandemic: New research provides evidence that narcissistic business leaders can have a detrimental impact on the workplace by triggering a sense of uncertainty among middle management. → https://old.reddit.com/r/science/comments/s06w0m/ceo_narcissism_linked_to_heightened_workplace/ | 02:15 |
| sdfgsdfg | it's just lobbying | 02:19 |
| sdfgsdfg | repeated vaccination of the entire worlds population is the biggest sales opportunity ever created | 02:21 |
| oerheks | israel showed it can be done | 02:23 |
| sdfgsdfg | which also directly affects our national security and economy - assuming we have to stay ahead | 02:23 |
| dTal | what, exactly, is "just lobbying"? | 02:23 |
| oerheks | no appointment, jest stand in line | 02:23 |
| oerheks | c/just | 02:23 |
| sdfgsdfg | now these new people are lobbying and representing whats in our best interest | 02:24 |
| sdfgsdfg | they represent politicians, who represent us | 02:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Covid vaccine: Pregnant women urged not to delay getting jab: Most pregnant women admitted to hospital with Covid are unvaccinated, a government campaign says. → https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59930786 | 02:24 |
| dTal | who is "they"? vaccine companies? | 02:24 |
| sdfgsdfg | yes | 02:24 |
| oerheks | there are no capable politicians. | 02:25 |
| lastshell | illuminati for sure dTal :P | 02:25 |
| lastshell | just kidding ^ | 02:25 |
| oerheks | all they come up with is printing money. | 02:25 |
| dTal | sdfgsdfg, are you suggesting that repeated vaccination is scientifically baseless? | 02:26 |
| lastshell | dTal what about resistence to anti-biotics (can be pausible same with vaccines in the long term) ? | 02:27 |
| dTal | lastshell: ...what about it? That's a completely different scenario. | 02:27 |
| oerheks | mix m-rna and non m-rna seems to be no problem | 02:28 |
| dTal | Antibiotics are single, relatively simple chemicals than fight a broad spectrum of bacteria. Vaccines are instruction manuals for an immune system - an extremely complex machine we don't fully understand - to target specific pathogens using incredibly sophisticated adaptive mechanisms. They're barely comparable. | 02:30 |
| LjL | dTal, well, yes, i think governments should have mandated stopping of flight, even if that implies some/most airlines would go bankrupt. but only from the selfish perspective of not wanting to live in a pandemic forever. | 02:30 |
| lastshell | thank you for the explanation dTal | 02:30 |
| lastshell | I recall we talk about having a global coordinated shutdown/lockdown | 02:31 |
| sdfgsdfg | scientifically baseless ? not really, it works better with consecutive doses - as we keep proving with each dose | 02:31 |
| lastshell | I still thing that global lockdown is the only solution | 02:32 |
| sdfgsdfg | I definitely support it, but I have a bad feeling about how it might influence legislation, or politics | 02:32 |
| lastshell | but impossible todo it / coordinate | 02:32 |
| dTal | well I don't think I explained much :p but the point is that a species of bacteria evolving to evade an antibiotic is super bad news, because we only have so many of them. Viruses evolving around adaptive immunity, however, is basically the normal ebb and flow of battle. | 02:32 |
| sdfgsdfg | indirectly also affecting our decision making and lives | 02:32 |
| LjL | dTal, how many viruses have we got to mutate so far by means of vaccination, and so that they evaded vaccination, though? | 02:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: COVID vaccinations quadruple in Quebec after province requires them to buy booze, marijuana → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s075pm/covid_vaccinations_quadruple_in_quebec_after/ | 02:33 |
| dTal | LjL, who knows? Flu, quite possibly. | 02:34 |
| LjL | i understand the reasoning about antibiotics being simple substances, but vaccines also, say we succeed in making a universal sarbecovirus vaccine, that targets *just the thing* that all these viruses have in common as they had no prior need to diversify it | 02:34 |
| LjL | well, if we do it in a way that doesn't destroy the thing fully, that won't be great | 02:35 |
| LjL | dTal, yeah, i don't know. i can give you examples of vaccines that worked to eradicate something fully though, mainly smallpox | 02:35 |
| LjL | with smallpox we might just have been lucky | 02:35 |
| dTal | What's the context here? That we should hold off on vaccination, lest the virus learn to evade the vaccine? That seems self defeating. | 02:35 |
| LjL | but when we use monoclonal antibodies for example, we *try* to use combinations of them making the chance the virus will evade them all vanishingly small, because we know if we only use one of them, it will be almost *certain* | 02:36 |
| LjL | which is why sotrovimab being the only one left that works against Omicron is extremely bad news imo | 02:36 |
| sdfgsdfg | also on the other hand, I wouldn't say I'm a vaccine fanatic | 02:36 |
| sdfgsdfg | trying to talk like a politician here | 02:36 |
| LjL | i think with vaccines it is, or should be, quite similar. we should use multivalent vaccines targeting as many "likely" mutations as possible, and we should strive to make them so effective that the virus has basically no chance | 02:36 |
| LjL | yes i can't just handwave that into existence, but i made the monoclonal antibodies comparison to show that concept *is* a recognized concept in medicine | 02:37 |
| LjL | dTal, the context from my point of view is that i find it inexcusable that we still only have "the original vaccines" and the trials on multivalent vaccines and intranasal vaccines are going so slowly as to basically seem like they're not going on at all | 02:38 |
| LjL | and like sdfgsdfg i *am* concerned that Pfizer & co will just keep wanting to sell us more of the same thing | 02:38 |
| LjL | which "works", yes indeed, but in a way that keeps us in the pandemic forever | 02:38 |
| lastshell | I just thinking for the logistical standpoint vaccinate every 6 months or so the whole planet | 02:38 |
| sdfgsdfg | they will complete the multivalent vaccines, intranasal vaccines and open source ones when they find a cure to baldness | 02:38 |
| LjL | lastshell, forget about the whole planet, only the WHO is serious about wanting to ensure full coverage, and the WHO only has words | 02:38 |
| LjL | sdfgsdfg, that's a bald claim | 02:39 |
| lastshell | who doesn't recognize taiwan :P | 02:39 |
| lastshell | sorry not trying to star a irc war :P | 02:39 |
| lastshell | looks something good from the Us goverment | 02:40 |
| lastshell | https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/paramount-importance-judge-orders-fda-hasten-release-pfizer-vaccine-docs-2022-01-07/ | 02:40 |
| dTal | that's a good point about the incentive structure of the vaccine developers | 02:40 |
| dTal | they certainly don't seem to be rushing to make updated vaccines do they | 02:41 |
| lastshell | well they should, omicron was not very well covered by the 3 jabs | 02:41 |
| dTal | It took less than a year to develop and test the original tranche of vaccines. Now it's been more than a year since they were rolled out, and nothing on the horizon. | 02:42 |
| lastshell | https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2022/01/05/1070046189/a-texas-team-comes-up-with-a-covid-vaccine-that-could-be-a-global-game-changer?utm_source=pocket-newtab | 02:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Hawaii records 3 new coronavirus-related deaths, 4,578 additional infections → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s078ln/hawaii_records_3_new_coronavirusrelated_deaths/ | 02:43 |
| LjL | dTal, yes, that's what i mean. i'm not this huge vaccine scientist, but we both can count months... | 02:44 |
| Tuvix | dTal: Sure, but my understanding with up through Delta is that, while effectiveness did wane a bit, it's far more pronounced with Omicron. Now there have been studies suggesting that divergence is so great (ie: antigenic-drift and the antigen load required to deal with an Omicron infection) that it's much more reasonable to assume a targeted update would be notably more useful. | 02:53 |
| LjL | i think it's just shortsighted to assume because just adding more vaccine "kinda works" for Omicron, doing the same again will work for the next variant (without even taking into account the logistics) | 02:55 |
| LjL | it will keep working, until it will stop working | 02:55 |
| sdfgsdfg | in Israel 10% less people received their boosters in the end. There is a loss of trust and 4th dose coverage might sit around 40% | 02:56 |
| Tuvix | Right, the pattern is clear, and while it was clear with Delta too, it was less obviously a major problem. | 02:56 |
| LjL | a vaccine on, always, specifically, the same S-protein can't make our immune system go "oh wait, there's this *entirely different* protein that one day it could mutate into, better start thinking about that"... | 02:56 |
| Tuvix | Now with Omicron the combination of waning and loss of effectiveness over continue mutations is not a good thing, and should it occur again, our vaccines, while still "useful" will be a bit like trying to put your building fire out with a garden hose. | 02:56 |
| sdfgsdfg | but its no longer an important covid warzone | 02:56 |
| Tuvix | continued* | 02:57 |
| LjL | sdfgsdfg, well that's bound to be. you are very unlikely to convince *more* people to get the boosters (and also the vaccines they didn't get in the first place), while you're virtually certain to *lose* some people, if not many, at least some | 02:57 |
| ublx | i'm not even wholly convinced that the normal full spectrum of clinical trials is justified during the pandemic we find ourselves in, given the system of knowledge necessary to invent and successfully deploy the technology in the first place. | 02:57 |
| Tuvix | I guess it depends on what they're doing with updated vaccines. | 02:58 |
| LjL | we already haven't done "full" clinical trials tbqf | 02:58 |
| sdfgsdfg | ublx dont you remember we got emergency authorization for every single upcoming vaccine tech | 02:58 |
| ublx | yeah | 02:58 |
| ublx | even so, i think we could be going faster still | 02:58 |
| Tuvix | If the development is effectively identical bust just with updated mRNA components, a faster-track approach may be useful to get at least to the emergency-use stage, and again quickly evaluate the progression while everything continues to follow prior trends. | 02:59 |
| ublx | as in continual (minor) adjustments to vaccine code | 02:59 |
| Tuvix | It's the under 5-year-olds that's the frustrating part, since they don't yet have the dosage / doses right yet, and are now stuck waiting for more data from that. | 02:59 |
| Tuvix | Right, we don't need to wait months/years for updated flu vaccine tweaks each year. | 02:59 |
| LjL | ublx, i think so too, but i'm not entirely sure it's because of the trial "bureaucracy" (i think there is a potential for safety issues even if you're "just" changing the mRNA around a bit, and i would be somewhat careful), rather because of a lack of will, because they can sell the current vaccine and convince us it's the way out, or at least try until they empirically see they fail | 02:59 |
| Tuvix | In the annual flu doses, that's the same _process_ but with different inactivated virus targets. | 03:00 |
| LjL | i guess i should look up the history of the flu vaccine | 03:00 |
| LjL | we are dealing with a number of new things here after all | 03:00 |
| LjL | the virus, the vaccine platforms | 03:01 |
| LjL | it may turn out it's just as safe as tweaking flu vaccines every year, but it also may not | 03:01 |
| LjL | i don't really think we're at the point we confidently know | 03:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: The United States records an average of 700,000 new cases per day; Fauci says the nation could grow to 1 million → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s07o1c/the_united_states_records_an_average_of_700000/ | 03:01 |
| LjL | Moderna has 10-fold the myocarditis events after the 2nd dose than after the 1st. and we don't have enough data about the 3rd, which i find concerning | 03:02 |
| LjL | this is regardless of "tweaks", i guess somewhat orthogonal to it | 03:02 |
| LjL | but there *is* a question in general of how well we're going to tolerate repeated boosters | 03:02 |
| Tuvix | Right, and I don't think doing this forever without targeting the current variations is viable. | 03:03 |
| LjL | me neither | 03:03 |
| dTal | ublx, I agree | 03:03 |
| Tuvix | I think it's already on the border of a poor approach, and I presume that's only going to get worse if (or more likely "when") we see the next major varient emerge. | 03:03 |
| LjL | but why should we jump directly to doing it without a trial first, when the trials that are in progress are just... not progressing? | 03:03 |
| LjL | maybe we should see if we can funnel money into making them happen | 03:03 |
| LjL | then we can argue whether we need something faster still | 03:03 |
| Tuvix | Money got us the current vaccinations. I think we also need to have clear expecatations with the drug producers to be able to make modifications. After all, that as the big selling point of mRNA in the first place, and how we got these initial effective vaccines to market so quickly. | 03:04 |
| dTal | on the other hand, when you're injecting something into every single person, it's as well to be extra sure | 03:04 |
| ublx | i'm thinking along the lines.. suppose for the sake of argument that the factory batches production runs. then a new obviously dangerous variant is sequenced. minor tweaks should be made to the code being sent to production within a batch or two, withing weeks or being sequenced, not months, straight to production. on the idea that the designers are not trying to capture 100% of possible | 03:05 |
| ublx | improvements, just something, something conservative, that moves the vaccine closer to relevance | 03:05 |
| Tuvix | And not just make them, but go through all the trials/testing/data-publication, etc required. If they're going to be spending government money on this, they should be answering _to_ those governments on progress. | 03:05 |
| LjL | ublx, i absolutely think that even Moderna's beta vaccine would be useful against Omicron or what-have-you | 03:05 |
| ublx | given the existence of the mrna vaccine technology, it seems plausibly within the wit of current expertise to identify conservative adjustments that mightn't totally invalidate existing safety data | 03:05 |
| LjL | ublx, you envision a "continuous development" approach, but i think it could also work (maybe less effectively and less quickly, but maybe more safely also, or just more conservatively) to inject things made for previous variants that are no longer around, because they do share a lot of the epitopes with the ones that are, and the vaccines *have* show they can remain relevant for at least a couple of variant-iterations | 03:06 |
| LjL | i think your "continuous development" approach could be switched to once we're more confident we're not likely to make some huge mistake in the process | 03:07 |
| dTal | this is true. Also it seems to me that mrna vaccines are sufficiently simple to manufacture that we need to start thinking more creatively about the logistiics of distribution. Each country could easily manufacture its own supply. | 03:07 |
| LjL | dTal, maybe we should get the important countries to agree that IP rights should be waiv- oh, they're telling me this has been tried, and it didn't go through | 03:07 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Australia: +78561 cases, +22 deaths since 22 hours ago — Saint Lucia: +220 cases, +734 tests (30.0% positive) since a day ago — Burkina Faso: +276 cases, +503 tests (54.9% positive) since a day ago — Antigua and Barb.: +214 cases, +1 deaths since a day ago | 03:08 |
| dTal | yeah that is some bullshit | 03:09 |
| Tuvix | Or to at minimum allow facilities that meet whatever baseline standard is required to license it "easily" (whatever that means in practice.) | 03:10 |
| Tuvix | I don't even think that exists, but I also don't understand the political or economic facotrs at play here all that well. | 03:10 |
| Tuvix | I get that means a more complicated ecosystem of ensuring quality control is met, but given the horrifically slow distribution to poorer countries, this is not exactly a great success story across the board. | 03:11 |
| Tuvix | (and yes, they've got their own political and vaccine-resistance problems too, but early on that wasn't the primary issue) | 03:12 |
| LjL | India is producing Covishield independently of AstraZeneca, i understand? | 03:12 |
| LjL | although there's the whole Bill Gates thing supposedly involved in giving the Oxford vaccine IP to AZ in the first place, which i don't really understand how exactly it went | 03:13 |
| dTal | so is Bill Gates really some Grand Poobah of Vaccination now | 03:21 |
| dTal | were the frothy antivaxers actually right about that | 03:22 |
| LjL | dTal, well he's most definitely involved | 03:22 |
| LjL | lies are usually built on grains of truth | 03:22 |
| dTal | I always thought they were lunatic and the Bill Gates angle was up there with lizard people and jewish space lasers | 03:22 |
| LjL | well, okay, he's not making sure there are Pluton chips in the vaccine we get injected | 03:23 |
| LjL | but he's also making sure the worldwide "healthcare industry" works the way he envisions it to work | 03:23 |
| LjL | which is not necessarily evil or anything, but i don't particularly expect Gates of all people to think IP rights aren't particularly important after all | 03:23 |
| xx | I don't expect Gates to really care, he's rich enough to not need to care and would likely just prefer to enjoy the rest of his life | 03:24 |
| Tuvix | Who will buy his prior company's licensed products if they die of COVID? :P | 03:24 |
| LjL | xx, people have ideals and cling to them | 03:24 |
| LjL | that may come as a surprise to you, but... | 03:24 |
| xx | yeah, I'm unconvinced | 03:24 |
| LjL | if it were like you said, then people who are "rich enough to do virtually anything" wouldn't keep trying to accumulate *more* riches. and yet, empirically they do very much tend to. | 03:25 |
| Tuvix | I think after leaving Microsoft he had the opportunity to look at things from a different perspective, and decide what he wanted to spend his fortunes on that might make an impact. He was talking early on about buliding a bunch of vaccine production facilities knowing many/most/all might not even be viable. | 03:25 |
| xx | I have no personal issue with Gates, but I guarantee that his public persona is very carefully crafted and tens of millions of dollars have been spent on creating it | 03:25 |
| Tuvix | Well sure, this isn't to say he's going broke doing any of thise. | 03:25 |
| Tuvix | I'ts an interesting approach, but I don't know how much impact one man's vision is really going to have here, foundation and money or not. | 03:26 |
| LjL | xx, and why would he do that if he just didn't give a fuck and wanted to enjoy retirement with tons of money until he dies? | 03:26 |
| xx | LjL: what I was talking about is him not having to give a fuck about IP being stolen or given out freely, because it doesn't affect him personally anymore | 03:26 |
| dTal | good point LjL | 03:26 |
| LjL | i guess i should try to dig up more about how much he was really involved in the AZ negotiations | 03:27 |
| LjL | the reality is i've thought about digging up before, but i kind of preferred not to | 03:27 |
| LjL | because then it always turns out i find things that are unpalatable and i get mad and then i discuss them with people and it's often "it's not a big deal" and i get mad | 03:27 |
| LjL | and i can't change anything about it | 03:27 |
| dTal | Bill Gates clearly has ideals. But what actually are they? | 03:28 |
| LjL | yeah | 03:28 |
| LjL | in a nutshell, i'm not sure i want to find out | 03:29 |
| dTal | see, in my free software universe, bill gates has always been pretty much the antichrist, particularly in matters pertaining to intellectual property | 03:31 |
| dTal | and now I find he's the bad guy again, in a play involving biological software and intellectual property | 03:31 |
| LjL | dTal, i thought that ended when Christ Shuttleworth said bug #1 wasn't relevant anymore after all | 03:31 |
| dTal | and you know what? I'm not in the slightest bit surprised. It's not out of character at all. | 03:31 |
| dTal | LjL: lol who died and made him in charge | 03:32 |
| dTal | wait until Microsoft makes it impossible to run Linux on PCs. Don't laugh, it's coming. | 03:32 |
| LjL | i know ;( | 03:32 |
| dTal | https://newrepublic.com/article/162000/bill-gates-impeded-global-access-covid-vaccines | 03:33 |
| LjL | unless it's Ubuntu, they'll make sure you can run a signed copy of Ubuntu so you "can't complain" they're locking it | 03:33 |
| dTal | I think Red Hat would complain | 03:33 |
| dTal | but yeah, I fear we'll be given just enough leeway to sap the righteous outrage, as was done with Secure Boot | 03:34 |
| LjL | dTal, well Ubuntu cynicism aside, most distros already "agreed" to publish Microsoft-signed bootloaders, and that will "just" turn into also kernels and stuff as Microsoft ups its demands | 03:34 |
| LjL | and now this Pluton thing... | 03:34 |
| LjL | oh and there is the other approach to this too | 03:37 |
| LjL | you may not be "required" to use signed Kernels, but, you will be if you want to use Netflix | 03:37 |
| LjL | and then something else, and then yet more things, and slowly you'll have to use signed stuff to access most websites | 03:38 |
| LjL | it's happening on Android with random apps, they just need to get us old computer users into the same mindset | 03:38 |
| dTal | oh phew, I don't give 2 shits about netflix | 03:40 |
| xx | it's easy then, don't pay for netflix | 03:40 |
| xx | I don't pay for any service that prevents me from utilizing full resolution because I'm on linux | 03:40 |
| LjL | i don't either | 03:40 |
| LjL | but... calling that "easy" is reductive | 03:41 |
| xx | humans could use some of this "reductive" stuff... | 03:41 |
| dTal | yeah I'm still allowed to be pissed off that I'm being presented with a shitty choice | 03:41 |
| dTal | either sacrifice my freedom, or sacrifice my social credibility | 03:42 |
| LjL | xx, okay, so, i cannot use my region's ER-finding app if i'm rooted (not really sure if it uses SafetyNet or just some more blunt method) | 03:42 |
| LjL | it's also not something i'm eager to find out the moment i actually need to find a suitable ER | 03:42 |
| LjL | when i said "Netflix" i think i clarified i believe it's a slippery slope and it just *starts* with people willing to use Netflix despite the restrictions, but then it goes to virtually any sort of app/site | 03:43 |
| dTal | and if everyone who refuses to sacrifice their freedom loses social credibility, then it's not really a movement is it, or helpful in any way | 03:43 |
| LjL | (app for now, site in this nifty vision of the computing future) | 03:43 |
| dTal | apparently all teens in america have iphones. All of em | 03:43 |
| dTal | Because you lose social cred if you don't. | 03:43 |
| xx | it's even worse that all university students seem to have macbooks | 03:43 |
| xx | the truth is that life is so much simpler once you lose all social cred | 04:03 |
| xx | especially if you stop worrying about it | 04:03 |
| LjL | xx, tbf i may end up buying a Macbook (well, it's unlikely, but not entirely impossible) given i wanted something durable but the Thinkpad X1 i was going for is skyrocketing in price, and the Frame.work laptop is also going to be pricey in Europe | 04:03 |
| xx | I have nothing personal against apple nor macbooks, just find it distasteful that people buy them *only* because someone else has them or because they want to show off | 04:04 |
| LjL | xx, the truth if that if you want to be able to talk to your family in Europe you've gotta use Whatsapp, because people don't like SMS anymore and carriers are charging for texts again | 04:04 |
| LjL | so i just don't really talk to my family | 04:04 |
| LjL | but i also don't particularly want to | 04:04 |
| xx | if the machine works for whatever work you need doing, then it accomplishes its goal and I can't say anything against that | 04:04 |
| LjL | if i really did want to a lot, then i might install Whatsapp despite detesting it | 04:04 |
| LjL | and it wouldn't be a matter of "cred" | 04:04 |
| xx | LjL: family can use signal | 04:05 |
| xx | and if they won't install a simple free/opensource app just for you, then can you really call them family? | 04:05 |
| LjL | but they won't because they already have their whole "family" group set up on whatsapp | 04:05 |
| xx | I have no family, so I can't put myself in your situation | 04:06 |
| LjL | same as friends used to organize nights out on Facebook, and i didn't have Facebook, so sometimes one of them would remember to call me, and sometimes they wouldn't | 04:06 |
| xx | well good news, there are no nights out anymore :D | 04:07 |
| LjL | you don't say | 04:07 |
| xx | italy has that no-going-outside-after-10pm right? | 04:07 |
| xx | or just shops close at that time | 04:07 |
| LjL | no | 04:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: How Brexit and the pandemic changed UK trade in 4 charts: While EU countries have largely recovered to pre-COVID levels of trade, the same cannot be said of the UK. → https://www.politico.eu/article/how-brexit-and-the-pandemic-changed-uk-trade/ | 04:08 |
| LjL | curfew ended a while ago | 04:08 |
| xx | I see | 04:08 |
| LjL | shops close much earlier than 10pm, and always did... pubs and stuff, i don't know if they have any limitation currently, i *think* they do due to the fact we were "upgraded" from white alert to yellow alert | 04:08 |
| LjL | hard to follow when the meanings of these color codes kinda keeps changing every time they use them | 04:09 |
| xx | white snow good, yellow snow bad | 04:09 |
| LjL | there's just a bit of frost on the roof of the train station | 04:09 |
| LjL | it might have snowed once for about half an hour this winter | 04:09 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Mexico: +11599 cases, +31 deaths, +20754 tests (55.9% positive) since 23 hours ago — Thailand: +7926 cases, +13 deaths since 23 hours ago — South Korea: +2999 cases, +34 deaths since a day ago — Suriname: +366 cases, +2 deaths, +731 tests (50.1% positive) since 23 hours ago | 04:11 |
| finely[m] | Australian COVID deaths are now referred to as "taking wickets in the virus". | 04:24 |
| finely[m] | https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/comments/rxzn9j/this_is_australia_living_with_the_virus_taking/ | 04:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: Risk factors of mortality among patients hospitalised with COVID-19 in a critical care or hospital care unit: analysis of the French national medicoadministrative database → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/s09c7p/risk_factors_of_mortality_among_patients/ | 04:27 |
| finely[m] | <LjL> "xx, tbf i may end up buying a..." <- More expensive, but with a much longer lifespan (replaceable battery, no planned software obselecence). | 04:27 |
| LjL | finely[m], which one do you mean? | 04:28 |
| LjL | also not sure planned *software* obsolescence is a factor given i plan to use Linux either way | 04:28 |
| finely[m] | The framework. Free software developers having access to the lower level stuff like firmware and bootloaders can make or break long term support and security updates. Its why older android phones are unmaintainable. | 04:33 |
| finely[m] | System76 and librem are two Linux laptop companies that have done a lot of work making more of the low level code open source. | 04:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Anti-vaccination doctor Jonie Girouard can no longer practise in New Zealand → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s09trh/antivaccination_doctor_jonie_girouard_can_no/ | 04:46 |
| Tuvix | ^ Revoking licenses of doctors violating ethics or other related concerns is a problem in the US too; the medical framework to do that didn't really plan for the case where doctors who ought to know better actively work against the system. | 04:47 |
| Tuvix | It's not common, but common enough to cause problems since the bad doctors get cited similar to unverified research claims do. Some docs have a reputation for signing various exemption paperwork effecitvely without considering the patient's case at all, just as a matter of fact. | 04:48 |
| LjL | finely[m], firmware and bootloaders aren't really things that the frame.work tackles... they ship with Windows, they make no attempt to disable the Intel ME, they do mention that everything should work with Linux with the latest driver, but it's not their primary target. i would have to go to Librem from that. as to the longer lifespan, yes, except 1) if the motherboard fails, that's pretty much the cost of a new computer anyway, as it's not modular (soldered | 04:51 |
| LjL | CPU), and 2) i have to hope they actually stay in business and the whole thing works out so that spare parts *will* remain on the market | 04:51 |
| LjL | on the other hand, a Thinkpad also has a battery that can easily be replaced. the rest, not so much | 04:52 |
| LjL | it also looks much better to me, as the frame.work really does seem to be striving to look like a Macbook a bit too much for my taste, but i guess that shouldn't be too important :P | 04:52 |
| LjL | anyway i would like to support frame.work's effort for all i know about it so far, but i already stretched my budget a lot to get to €1300, now it looks more like €1600-to-2000 for any of these... gah | 04:53 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Bahamas: +1497 cases, +4502 tests (33.3% positive) since 2 days ago — Venezuela: +447 cases, +5 deaths since 21 hours ago | 05:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Starting later this week, some at-risk Americans become eligible for a 4th Covid shot. → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0a7tc/starting_later_this_week_some_atrisk_americans/ | 05:04 |
| finely[m] | Didn't know that about the framework. Much less attractive in that case. I've heard the newer thinkpads are not liked in terms of build quality. | 05:14 |
| xx | it's so odd to see myself buying gym equipment that costs many times the cost of a beefy laptop | 05:23 |
| xx | like, on the one hand, a pinnacle of human technology, on the other hand, a slab of iron | 05:23 |
| LjL | finely[m], yeah there's only so much hard plastic you can shave off before it becomes a bit flimsy, but i'm already getting spine issues by carring thie 1.4kg laplet the way i carry it, so, rather than carrying it in a saner way, i want a lighter computer :P (also this one is broken) | 05:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Flashpoint Interview: University of Michigan immunologist says pandemic will end in 2022 → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0aluk/flashpoint_interview_university_of_michigan/ | 05:23 |
| xx | the pandemic will not end in 2022, but it will be declared officially over in 2022 | 05:25 |
| LjL | by whom | 05:27 |
| LjL | i'm sure someone somewhere will declare it over | 05:27 |
| finely[m] | Rupert Murdoch | 05:28 |
| finely[m] | https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/coronavirus/former-deputy-chief-medical-officer-dr-nick-coatsworth-says-the-covid19-pandemic-will-end-in-2022/news-story/9ddead7ed7f6fae8cb8e8f44e84608df | 05:28 |
| xx | by all the people in charge, due to pressure from all the businesses | 05:28 |
| xx | and pressure to get re-elected | 05:28 |
| xx | and pressure to not be shut down (WHO, CDC, ...) | 05:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: COVID Isolation Is a Lot Like … Muffin Baking → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0apk3/covid_isolation_is_a_lot_like_muffin_baking/ | 05:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Cyprus reportedly discovers a Covid variant that combines omicron and delta → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s0arjz/cyprus_reportedly_discovers_a_covid_variant_that/ | 05:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: CDC Director Can’t Say How Many Of 836,000 Deaths Are ‘From COVID’ And How Many Are ‘With COVID’ → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s0bbh5/cdc_director_cant_say_how_many_of_836000_deaths/ | 06:02 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Panama: +4066 cases, +7 deaths, +17792 tests (22.9% positive) since a day ago — Kazakhstan: +2087 cases since 22 hours ago — Pakistan: +1649 cases, +3 deaths, +45002 tests (3.7% positive) since 23 hours ago | 06:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: 555 of the 802 who died of Covid-19 in 2021 were not fully vaccinated: Ong Ye Kung → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0btao/555_of_the_802_who_died_of_covid19_in_2021_were/ | 06:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: India begins booster shots as Covid-19 cases surge → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0c4dr/india_begins_booster_shots_as_covid19_cases_surge/ | 06:49 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Minas Gerais, Brazil: +35700 cases, +60 deaths since 4 days ago — England, United Kingdom: +121228 cases, +84 deaths since 23 hours ago — Parana, Brazil: +26805 cases, +13 deaths since 4 days ago — Rio de Janeiro, Brazil: +26532 cases, +19 deaths since 4 days ago | 07:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Cypriot scientist says findings showing Deltacron Covid-19 variant isn't error → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s0cirq/cypriot_scientist_says_findings_showing_deltacron/ | 07:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Singapore hopes to ride through Omicron wave with measures tightened only as 'last resort' → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0d6eg/singapore_hopes_to_ride_through_omicron_wave_with/ | 07:44 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Uzbekistan: +389 cases, +3 deaths since a day ago — Zimbabwe: +373 cases, +12 deaths, +4242 tests (8.8% positive) since a day ago — Kyrgyzstan: +198 cases, +1 deaths since a day ago — United Kingdom: +141575 cases since 19 hours ago | 08:08 |
| sdfgsdfg | someone else might take over, I'm taking a break | 09:22 |
| Trippy72894 | ok thanks | 09:22 |
| sdfgsdfg | Trippy72894 it reduces hospitalization and chance of having severe symptoms etc | 09:22 |
| Trippy72894 | for a kid, that's a small risk, and if the parents are fine with it, then don't they have a good no vax case? | 09:23 |
| Trippy72894 | i mean a good argument for not vaxing the kid | 09:23 |
| sdfgsdfg | we know that our vaccines efficacy wanes + new variants evolve. But the future is bright | 09:24 |
| sdfgsdfg | it's time to not ask questions and get more jabs | 09:25 |
| sdfgsdfg | the protection increases with every single dose, and it's a good estimate | 09:25 |
| Trippy72894 | that's not a great response to my friend who has a kid and doesn't want the kid vaxt | 09:25 |
| Trippy72894 | but back to me | 09:26 |
| sdfgsdfg | get the kid vaxed | 09:26 |
| Trippy72894 | they need a reason | 09:26 |
| sdfgsdfg | no questions | 09:26 |
| Trippy72894 | and i have trouble finding one | 09:26 |
| sdfgsdfg | it protects you | 09:26 |
| Trippy72894 | a kid has a teeny chance of illness | 09:26 |
| Trippy72894 | anyhow, if i had a kid, i'd get it vaxt | 09:26 |
| Trippy72894 | anyhow, whatever. she can do as she likes | 09:27 |
| sdfgsdfg | is the kid planning to internationally travel in the next 6 months | 09:27 |
| Trippy72894 | he country screwed it all up. half assed they got death disease bankrupty lockdowns masks and vax passports | 09:27 |
| Trippy72894 | no | 09:27 |
| Trippy72894 | or maybe, but what's the diff | 09:27 |
| sdfgsdfg | the kid might die from covid if it's planning to travel outside china | 09:28 |
| Trippy72894 | oh the kid is in holland | 09:28 |
| Trippy72894 | my friend is in holland | 09:28 |
| Trippy72894 | she doesn't want to vax the kids there | 09:28 |
| Trippy72894 | she's mad at the govt | 09:28 |
| sdfgsdfg | the kid is in holland ? that changes the entire game | 09:29 |
| sdfgsdfg | that kid definitely needs a booster | 09:29 |
| Trippy72894 | the kid never got a first vax, not did she | 09:29 |
| sdfgsdfg | why ? they need protection | 09:29 |
| Trippy72894 | she drank the coolaid, man. she's smart as hell, but listend to idiots | 09:29 |
| sdfgsdfg | protect them, get them vaxed. The kids also die | 09:29 |
| Trippy72894 | the kids, okay maybe no vax, but she's 40 | 09:29 |
| sdfgsdfg | unvaxxed 40 year olds are dying with their kids | 09:30 |
| Trippy72894 | i could use stats on kid rates for vaxt non vaxt | 09:30 |
| zutt | they live in the tourist capital of Europe, they need the vaccination if they ever want to get rid of the lockdowns. | 09:30 |
| Trippy72894 | they totally screwed it. best is lockdowns then no covid then whackamole | 09:30 |
| Trippy72894 | second best is no lockdowns and everyone gets it | 09:30 |
| Trippy72894 | worst is everyone gets it and lockdowns and all the rest | 09:31 |
| Trippy72894 | that's what the world did | 09:31 |
| Trippy72894 | number 3 | 09:31 |
| Trippy72894 | crazy | 09:31 |
| sdfgsdfg | we just closed down the nightclubs in victoria | 09:31 |
| Trippy72894 | if it weren't so sad, it'd be funny | 09:31 |
| Trippy72894 | victoria BC? | 09:31 |
| sdfgsdfg | Australia | 09:31 |
| Trippy72894 | ahhhhh | 09:31 |
| Trippy72894 | are you one of those nutty right wingers? | 09:32 |
| Trippy72894 | you have that muroch dude there | 09:32 |
| Trippy72894 | he's not good for covid or earth | 09:32 |
| sdfgsdfg | the murdoch dude | 09:32 |
| Trippy72894 | he foxified earth | 09:32 |
| sdfgsdfg | is attacking everyone | 09:32 |
| sdfgsdfg | literally, everyone. Including the royals, banks, politicians | 09:32 |
| sdfgsdfg | lol he's nuts | 09:33 |
| Trippy72894 | he is | 09:33 |
| Trippy72894 | he should be in the hague | 09:33 |
| Trippy72894 | behind bars | 09:33 |
| Trippy72894 | he convinced billions that the vax is bad | 09:33 |
| Trippy72894 | and covid is ok | 09:33 |
| Trippy72894 | for profit | 09:33 |
| Trippy72894 | he sucks | 09:33 |
| sdfgsdfg | who convince billions that the vax was bad | 09:33 |
| Trippy72894 | fox news | 09:34 |
| Trippy72894 | murdoch | 09:34 |
| sdfgsdfg | no he pro vaccino | 09:34 |
| Trippy72894 | that organization really sold people a bill of goods | 09:34 |
| Trippy72894 | is he? | 09:34 |
| sdfgsdfg | ye | 09:34 |
| Trippy72894 | at first fox in usa was that covid was the flu | 09:34 |
| sdfgsdfg | murdoch like a jab | 09:34 |
| Trippy72894 | i'd like to give murdoch a jab, with a shrimp fork | 09:34 |
| sdfgsdfg | give me jab, jab me, jab now. Me a jabbie needing a lot now | 09:35 |
| Trippy72894 | or one of those little corn holders | 09:35 |
| Trippy72894 | so you have a lot of those Trumpie types in Australia right? | 09:35 |
| Trippy72894 | Freedom Freedom no mask types, right? | 09:35 |
| sdfgsdfg | no we are 95% vaccinated | 09:35 |
| Trippy72894 | good! | 09:36 |
| Trippy72894 | so you think omicron now will burn up all the hosts and we will go endemic | 09:36 |
| Trippy72894 | ?? | 09:36 |
| Trippy72894 | like 1 million a day in usa??? it has to run out of hosts soon, right? | 09:37 |
| sdfgsdfg | we will go endemic so hard, it will be biblical | 09:37 |
| Trippy72894 | isn't endemic like a soft landing? | 09:37 |
| sdfgsdfg | normally yeah | 09:38 |
| sdfgsdfg | but plot twists happen | 09:38 |
| Trippy72894 | and then the next pandemic | 09:38 |
| Trippy72894 | plot twists, true | 09:38 |
| Trippy72894 | and then fungi! | 09:38 |
| Trippy72894 | i heard that when the meteor wiped out dinosaurs, it made earth dark and dead trees were everywhere | 09:38 |
| Trippy72894 | and so fungus came | 09:38 |
| sdfgsdfg | "best is lockdowns then no xovid then whackamole" lol you said it best | 09:38 |
| Trippy72894 | and cold blooded animals don't like that and go sick but us warm blooded ones thrived | 09:39 |
| Trippy72894 | and now with rising temps, the fungi are learning to live with heat, and soo then will learn to live on us | 09:39 |
| Trippy72894 | and we will rot! | 09:39 |
| sdfgsdfg | are you vaccinated | 09:39 |
| Trippy72894 | of cours | 09:39 |
| sdfgsdfg | good | 09:39 |
| Trippy72894 | everyone here is | 09:39 |
| sdfgsdfg | no not me | 09:39 |
| Trippy72894 | i'm not stupid | 09:39 |
| Trippy72894 | not you? | 09:39 |
| * sdfgsdfg runs away | 09:39 | |
| Trippy72894 | you don't sound like a moron, so i'm guessing you're joking and are vaxt | 09:40 |
| Trippy72894 | and you obviously don't have a bad case of the deads | 09:41 |
| Tuvix | It's an odds game, but the incidence rate data is quite clear, as is weekly emerging reports on how much you want the best odds you can to reduce the chances you get long-haul symptoms or reduce the severity of them if you do end up with some. | 09:49 |
| Trippy72894 | that makes sense. | 09:49 |
| Tuvix | I put this data together from CDC data (which only goes up through mid-October, and won't be updated for another month for the up to November data.) However, it clearly shows that for any age group, you're risk of dying from COVID goes down significantly with vaccination. | 09:50 |
| Trippy72894 | the vax does have very, very few side effects, right? and getting covid can really suck | 09:50 |
| Trippy72894 | understood | 09:50 |
| Trippy72894 | so my friend says that for a small kid, the risk is already so low, why vaccinate. I respond with "because vax is pretty harmless, and why expose your kid to any risk" | 09:51 |
| Tuvix | Correct; the most common side effects are similar to most other vaccinations. To be clear it's not "low risk of any side effects," but I for one would much rather get annual flu vaccines and suffer a sore arm, and my approach to COVID is much the same after reviewing relative risk. | 09:51 |
| Trippy72894 | is that how i should best repond? | 09:51 |
| Trippy72894 | makes sense | 09:51 |
| Trippy72894 | thank you | 09:51 |
| Trippy72894 | you see, this is why i come here | 09:51 |
| Trippy72894 | because it gives me ammo to respond to the antivaxers | 09:51 |
| Tuvix | Right, exactly. It does depend a bit on "what" risks they're concerned about, or if the individual (child, in this case) has any existing medical conditions that could require asking their regular doctor. | 09:51 |
| Trippy72894 | no the kids are normal and healthy | 09:52 |
| Tuvix | However, for example, one of the big concerns here in the US is stated as the myocarditis risk. Yes, there is a slightly elevated (about 2.7/100,000 incidence rate in children) from the vaccines. However, catching COVID increases that risk over 4x, to about 12/100,000. | 09:53 |
| sdfgsdfg | maybe they are concerned about heart damage | 09:53 |
| sdfgsdfg | exactly , Tuvix mentioned it | 09:53 |
| Tuvix | So that's an example where the anti-vax information about the "fear" is based in correct information, but is HIGHLY misleading. | 09:53 |
| Trippy72894 | interesting | 09:53 |
| Trippy72894 | everything i read says overwhelmingly vax is better than non vax | 09:53 |
| Tuvix | It's also overplayed a lot and intentionally given out out context in order to push an agenda. Ultimately people need to talk to their doctors instead of listen to media outlets on things like deciding if a vaccination is a good idea for that individual's use-case. | 09:54 |
| Trippy72894 | and now you say even for little kids. the 2.7/100,000 vs 4x, to about 12/100,000 makes sense | 09:54 |
| Trippy72894 | vax the kid! | 09:54 |
| Trippy72894 | fair enough | 09:54 |
| Trippy72894 | sdfgsdfg you said you wren't vax. joking or not? | 09:55 |
| sdfgsdfg | but Tuvix , we have to mention that it's not exactly like that | 09:55 |
| Tuvix | For that specific side-effect, but I'm using that as an example since it's talked about a lot, espcially in right-leaning media. | 09:55 |
| Trippy72894 | yes they talk about side effects in right media, but omit likelihood | 09:55 |
| sdfgsdfg | for consecutive doses, the myocarditis risk of vaccines multiply | 09:55 |
| Trippy72894 | it's all anectodal "my friend..." | 09:55 |
| Tuvix | It's also 4x for the people who _catch_ COVID, but as of a few months ago when that data was pulled (CDC data, so US, but it'll hold true most other places too) less than half the children had been vaccinatede. | 09:55 |
| sdfgsdfg | for third dose, it's 3 to 18 times higher than the first doses | 09:56 |
| Tuvix | For Pfizer or Moderna? Remember, the under 18's aren't authorized for anything but Pfizer, and Moderna had some of the additional concerns there. | 09:56 |
| sdfgsdfg | the incidence risk of myocarditis I think - I might have the numbers wrong but it's one of those latest papers we shared here | 09:56 |
| Tuvix | (which may well be part of the reason an EUA has not yet been granted, but I'm not familiar enough to say for sure if that's a factor or if there are other issues like lack of enough trials.) | 09:57 |
| sdfgsdfg | it was moderna probably | 09:57 |
| Tuvix | If it's the paper I'm thinking of, that was for Moderna specifically, which has a higher risk associated with that from the outset, and especially for subsequent doses. | 09:57 |
| Tuvix | Right, so wouldn't apply to children. | 09:57 |
| sdfgsdfg | yes | 09:57 |
| Trippy72894 | so the risks of vax are there, but small, while the risks from covid are way worse. seems an easy choice. | 09:57 |
| sdfgsdfg | Trippy72894 not joking, I'm unvaccinated | 09:58 |
| Trippy72894 | really? | 09:58 |
| Trippy72894 | why? | 09:58 |
| Tuvix | Trippy72894: Yea, and not just COVID, but lasting effects after COVID. Some emerging science in the last several months points to a lower rate of problems after recovering from the "accute" phase of COVID. | 09:58 |
| Trippy72894 | yes that long covid sounds bad and pretty common too | 09:59 |
| Trippy72894 | i'm glad i'm vaccinated. | 09:59 |
| sdfgsdfg | I don't know why to be honest, my lifestyle allowed me to cut off all social interactions | 09:59 |
| sdfgsdfg | I don't think I need protection | 09:59 |
| Trippy72894 | well sdf, be careful | 09:59 |
| Tuvix | This is all very new research, but there are some concerning signs that brain tissue can be effected from COVID, and it appears that the vaccinated suffer less from this. Not to say you'll be risk-free as a vaccinated+boosted person, but your odds are better. | 09:59 |
| Trippy72894 | reasonable | 09:59 |
| Tuvix | Obviously you're best off being both vaccinated _and_ continuing to take risk reduction measures. | 09:59 |
| Trippy72894 | reasonable too | 10:00 |
| Trippy72894 | and could there be "very long covid"? | 10:00 |
| Tuvix | Reduce your odds of exposure, and the vaccination helps reduce the impact of an exposure; given how easily Omicron spreads, you're likely to encounter it sooner or later. | 10:00 |
| Trippy72894 | like 10 years on? | 10:00 |
| Trippy72894 | well here in china, maybe not | 10:00 |
| Tuvix | As in still in our environment or lasting symptoms from it? I mean, 'yes' to both obviously, but we just don't know. | 10:00 |
| Trippy72894 | but if it's around or i travel, i will boost | 10:00 |
| Trippy72894 | lasting symptoms | 10:00 |
| Tuvix | It's all very early still to know; we can't really predict some of this since you're asking about 8 years down the road from a virus we didn't know anything about 26 months ago. | 10:01 |
| Trippy72894 | like very long covid like an unvaxt gets covid bad and then long covid then in ten years dementia or somethhing | 10:01 |
| zutt | Finnish social affairs & health ministry released a report few days ago, that suggested that almost every second covid patient suffers from long-covid symptoms, depending on how long-covid is determined (US: 4 weeks, in EU: 8 weeks I think is general consensus, etc) (data from WHO, US-CDC, etc) | 10:01 |
| Tuvix | It's like asking what music your child will like when they're 2 years old. | 10:01 |
| Trippy72894 | good point | 10:01 |
| zutt | vaccination reduces the risk of being affected by long-covid by half. | 10:01 |
| zutt | ( and the report for sauce, it's in Finnish... but - https://stm.fi/documents/1271139/22481532/Pitk%C3%A4kestoinen+COVID-19.pdf/602277f8-cd59-919c-24a0-2efc8a4a8a16/Pitk%C3%A4kestoinen+COVID-19.pdf?t=1641545259477 ) | 10:01 |
| Trippy72894 | is long covid the result of permanent damage? | 10:02 |
| Trippy72894 | checking... | 10:02 |
| Thelma | Can the vaccination cause brain damage? Also, how common is brain damage from Covid-19? | 10:02 |
| Tuvix | Here again we don't really know, although there are some signs that it can get better over time with some patients, and reports that after infection, those suffering from long-covid like symptoms have reported them getting better after vaccination. But again, this is all a very new field of research, so it's hard to draw long-term conclusions given we still don't know what kind of long-term protection | 10:03 |
| zutt | no idea, but it can last for very long time.. half of the long-covid patients suffer from it for over a year | 10:03 |
| Tuvix | we'll really need. | 10:03 |
| Trippy72894 | well i'm avoiding covid and long covid too. | 10:03 |
| Tuvix | Thelma: The vaccination? No, the vaccines spur your body to produce antibodies which result in T- and B- cell memory in order to produce antigens when they see the real virus. The blood-brain barrier does not permit those kinds of cells to cross into the brain. | 10:04 |
| Trippy72894 | thank you Tuvix!!!! I'm off to dinner. Very informative. Thanks for taking the time. You're very smart. | 10:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): CoronavirusUK: Covid cases approaching their peak in all parts of England, data show → https://old.reddit.com/r/CoronavirusUK/comments/s0f8jy/covid_cases_approaching_their_peak_in_all_parts/ | 10:05 |
| Tuvix | Thelma: However, in COVID-positive patients, there _is_ a seeming break-down of some of this, and some autopsies have found evidence that the olfactory sections of the brain may suffer from the COVID infection in a way that allows the virus to negatively impact brain tissue. | 10:05 |
| Tuvix | Thelma: If you want to learn a bit more about brain tissue impacts of COVID-positive patients, and the benefits vaccination has in reducing them, this preprint study from UK Biobank is worth a read: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.11.21258690v3 | 10:05 |
| Thelma | Thank you Tuvix | 10:06 |
| Tuvix | The tl;dr is that negative brain tissue impacts seem a possible side-effect of catching COVID, but the vaccinated patients do much better when faced with infection. | 10:06 |
| Thelma | Thank you | 10:06 |
| Tuvix | Sure, hopefully that helped a bit. | 10:07 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Tabasco, Mexico: +536 cases, +1 deaths since a day ago — New Caledonia: +111 cases since 3 days ago | 10:13 |
| zutt | %cases Finland | 10:17 |
| Brainstorm | zutt: Finland has had 305522 confirmed cases (5.5% of all people) and 1638 deaths (0.5% of cases; 1 in 3375 people) as of 2 days ago. 8.8 million tests were done (3.5% positive). 4.4 million were vaccinated (78.7%). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Finland&legacy=no | 10:17 |
| Brainstorm | zutt: If you know of an official or otherwise good site for data about Finland, with a reasonably short URL, please %tell LjL about it. | 10:17 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV: COVID vaccinations quadruple in Quebec after province requires them to buy booze, marijuana; "The province of Quebec instituted a rule on Thursday requiring proof of vaccination against COVID-19 for residents seeking to [... want %more?] → https://old.reddit.com/r/CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV/comments/s0foxm/covid_vaccinations_quadruple_in_quebec_after/ | 10:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Opinion: What the physician exodus means to medical students like me: Being in medical school during the coronavirus pandemic feels like I'm starting a job at a new building, except the building is on fire and everyone is rushing outside as… → https://www.statnews.com/2022/01/10/what-the-physician-exodus-means-to-medical-students-like-me/ | 10:52 |
| Dredd | So, did any of the Deltacron signals turn out to be more than sample contamination? | 10:55 |
| Tuvix | One of the labs is saying it wasn't contamination I think, but I didn't dig much into that yet. | 10:56 |
| Tuvix | There's still debate over this finding though, it appears: https://www.straitstimes.com/world/europe/cypriot-scientist-says-findings-showing-deltacron-covid-19-variant-isnt-error | 10:59 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Hungary: +14655 cases, +167 deaths, +73614 tests (19.9% positive) since 3 days ago — Philippines: +33083 cases, +143 deaths since a day ago — Russia: +15830 cases, +741 deaths, +600000 tests (2.6% positive) since 22 hours ago — Estonia: +1258 cases, +1 deaths, +6780 tests (18.6% positive) since 22 hours ago | 11:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Covid-19: Common cold may give some protection, study suggests: Researchers say immune cells made to defend the body against some colds could help stave off Covid. → https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59911257 | 11:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Norwegian army recruits to wear used underwear due to equipment shortages: Norwegian conscripts will now have to return their boxers, bras and socks after completing military service for the next recruits, as the army struggles with dwindling [... want %more?] → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s0gl5p/norwegian_army_recruits_to_wear_used_underwear/ | 11:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: With peak yet to come, Europe's healthcare groans under Omicron's swift spread → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0gr7y/with_peak_yet_to_come_europes_healthcare_groans/ | 11:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Singapore Breaks Down Covid Deaths by Vaccine, With Moderna Seeing Lowest Rate → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0gy0z/singapore_breaks_down_covid_deaths_by_vaccine/ | 11:49 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Austria: +10804 cases, +7 deaths, +528372 tests (2.0% positive) since 23 hours ago — Papua New Guinea: +46 cases since 23 hours ago | 12:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: Omicron is surging — and Democrats aren’t shutting things down this time: Labor unions say governments aren’t providing enough tests and masks and should consider short-term closures until the Omicron surge ends. → https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2022/01/09/omicron-is-surging-and-democrats-arent-shutting-things-down-this-time-1404752 | 12:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: Anti-PEG antibodies boosted in humans by SARS-CoV-2 lipid nanoparticle mRNA vaccine → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/s0hiny/antipeg_antibodies_boosted_in_humans_by_sarscov2/ | 12:17 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: Autoantibodies in COVID-19 correlate with anti-viral humoral responses and distinct immune signatures → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/s0hjww/autoantibodies_in_covid19_correlate_with/ | 12:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from ECDC: ECDC: Data on the daily number of new reported COVID-19 cases and deaths by EU/EEA country → https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/data-daily-new-cases-covid-19-eueea-country | 12:35 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Finland: +23325 cases, +18 deaths, +70512 tests (33.1% positive) since 3 days ago — Israel: +23698 cases, +369517 tests (4.4% positive) since 23 hours ago — Saudi Arabia: +4778 cases, +2 deaths since a day ago — Zambia: +1485 cases, +5 deaths, +5389 tests (27.6% positive) since a day ago | 13:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): nCoV: Global COVID Cases For 10JAN22 → https://old.reddit.com/r/nCoV/comments/s0iowa/global_covid_cases_for_10jan22/ | 13:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Japan-based troops start two weeks of travel restrictions to curb explosive coronavirus spread → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0iqvk/japanbased_troops_start_two_weeks_of_travel/ | 13:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Uganda's schools reopen, ending world's longest lockdown → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s0iz9q/ugandas_schools_reopen_ending_worlds_longest/ | 13:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from New Scientist: Covid-19 news: Ministers plan for UK to ‘live with covid’: The latest coronavirus news updated every day including coronavirus cases, the latest news, features and interviews from New Scientist and essential information about the covid-19 pandemic → https://www.newscientist.com/article/2237475-covid-19-news-ministers-plan-for-uk-to-live-with-covid/ | 13:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from BioNTech: BioNTech and Crescendo Biologics Announce Global Collaboration to Develop Multi-specific Precision Immunotherapies: Collaboration leverages BioNTech’s proprietary multimodal immunotherapy expertise with Crescendo’s [... want %more?] → https://investors.biontech.de/news-releases/news-release-details/biontech-and-crescendo-biologics-announce-global-collaboration | 14:03 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Nepal: +1357 cases, +2 deaths, +8965 tests (15.1% positive) since a day ago — Belarus: +640 cases, +12 deaths, +9175 tests (7.0% positive) since a day ago — Germany: +20324 cases since 22 hours ago | 14:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: Coronavirus: Boris Johnson mulls cutting coronavirus isolation period → https://www.politico.eu/article/1945484/ | 14:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Georgia's COVID Death Rate Among World's Worst 5 Over the Week → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0jsds/georgias_covid_death_rate_among_worlds_worst_5/ | 14:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from Novavax: (news): Novavax and Serum Institute of India File for Emergency Use Authorization of Novavax' COVID-19 Vaccine in South Africa → https://ir.novavax.com/2022-01-10-Novavax-and-Serum-Institute-of-India-File-for-Emergency-Use-Authorization-of-Novavax-COVID-19-Vaccine-in-South-Africa | 14:42 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Switzerland: +56804 cases, +37 deaths, +221061 tests (25.7% positive) since 2 days ago — Iceland: +3590 cases, +2 deaths, +22363 tests (16.1% positive) since 3 days ago — Qatar: +3878 cases, +1 deaths, +6260 tests (61.9% positive) since 20 hours ago — Bangladesh: +2231 cases, +3 deaths, +26143 tests (8.5% positive) since 23 hours ago | 15:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from Contagion Live: A Convincing Case for Convalescent Plasma Treatment of COVID-19: Evidence for using antibody-rich convalescent plasma in early, outpatient treatment of COVID-19 is described as "solid." → https://www.contagionlive.com/view/a-convincing-case-for-convalescent-plasma-treatment-of-covid-19 | 15:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Spain will regulate the price of antigen tests → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0kr5o/spain_will_regulate_the_price_of_antigen_tests/ | 15:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Pharma: STAT+: Pharmalittle: Pfizer makes a major push into mRNA technology; Medicare decision on Alzheimer’s drug may hurt state budgets → https://www.statnews.com/pharmalot/2022/01/10/covid19-vaccine-opioids-pfizer-alzheimers-biogen-purdue-medicare-medicaid/ | 15:30 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Peru: +17128 cases, +48 deaths since a day ago — Iraq: +1368 cases, +5 deaths, +15319 tests (8.9% positive) since a day ago — Kenya: +1034 cases, +8 deaths, +4975 tests (20.8% positive) since 16 hours ago | 16:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: The rise of the coronavirus in the US could peak later this month, says one expert, but the next few weeks are critical → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0lqh2/the_rise_of_the_coronavirus_in_the_us_could_peak/ | 16:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: What's new: Medicine: Veterinary medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): Prevexxion RN+HVT+IBD, Infectious bursal disease and Marek's disease vaccine (live recombinant), Date of authorisation: 20/07/2020, Revision: 2, Status: Authorised → https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/veterinary/EPAR/prevexxion-rnhvtibd | 16:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: A 'biological mask' administered with a nasal spray can protect against coronavirus infection for hours: Cell cultures and animal studies show that TriSb92, a new molecule developed by the researchers, protects against coronavirus infection for at least eight [... want %more?] → https://medicalxpress.com/news/2022-01-biological-mask-nasal-coronavirus-infection.html | 16:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: 2 US providers prioritize Covid testing for symptomatic people → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0mlol/2_us_providers_prioritize_covid_testing_for/ | 16:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: New Turkish vaccine - doubts about the hope Turkovac → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0mtja/new_turkish_vaccine_doubts_about_the_hope_turkovac/ | 16:58 |
| Jigsy | >Because of a delay in receiving deaths data for England, today's update is delayed. | 17:03 |
| Jigsy | Oh, this'll be interesting. | 17:03 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Serbia: +8949 cases, +24 deaths, +26133 tests (34.2% positive) since a day ago — Chile: +4041 cases, +13 deaths, +66950 tests (6.0% positive) since a day ago — United Kingdom: +88659 cases since 21 hours ago — Canada: +56 deaths since 22 hours ago | 17:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from Contagion Live: AIDS Clinical Trials Group Launches Study of New CMV Vaccine: The AIDS Clinical Trials Group (ACTG) is beginning stage 2 trials for Triplex, a novel vaccine for people living with HIV and cytomegalovirus (CMV). → https://www.contagionlive.com/view/aids-clinical-trials-group-launches-study-of-new-cmv-vaccine | 17:17 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: IHME | COVID-19 Projections Updated 1/8 → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0nh4y/ihme_covid19_projections_updated_18/ | 17:26 |
| Dredd | Jigsy: 👀 | 17:29 |
| Dredd | Do you suspect something fishy? | 17:29 |
| lastshell | 4th shot in US rollout soon https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/09/health/immunocompromised-fourth-dose-booster.html | 17:34 |
| Dredd | Is that for like immunocomprised people? | 17:39 |
| Dredd | Not seen any rumblings that a 4th shot is needed / beneficial otherwise? | 17:40 |
| lastshell | yeah for immunicompromised people | 17:40 |
| edcba | has the deltacron issue been settled ? | 17:43 |
| Dredd | Article says I need to make a "free account" to read it so I can't read it | 17:43 |
| Dredd | edcba: not as of earlier today according to Tuvix who seems very on the ball | 17:43 |
| edcba | https://archive.fo/YbZ5S | 17:43 |
| Dredd | ta | 17:43 |
| Dredd | Woops, that means "thank you" in UK west country speak 😛 | 17:44 |
| edcba | well i guessed | 17:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Singapore says 30% Covid-19 deaths in 2021 were fully vaccinated | World News → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0nykp/singapore_says_30_covid19_deaths_in_2021_were/ | 17:46 |
| Dredd | lastshell: it's just compromised people getting their booster. Their initial vaccination schedule had an extra jab to help them more | 17:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: Test In-line Audio: Chemical innovation is at the heart of Europe’s transformation towards a circular and climate-neutral future. Martin Brudermüller, Cefic President discusses how the chemical industry is driving solutions for a more sustainable future. Amid the COVID-19 pandemic and a [... want %more?] → https://www.politico.eu/sponsored-content/test-in-line-audio/ | 17:55 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Netherlands: +28639 cases, +8 deaths since 16 hours ago — Jordan: +2789 cases, +17 deaths, +74409 tests (3.7% positive) since a day ago | 18:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Nurseries in England hit by staff absences after soaring Covid cases → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0oi3w/nurseries_in_england_hit_by_staff_absences_after/ | 18:15 |
| LjL | Italian PM press release now | 18:17 |
| LjL | https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3WafkC9YXKs | 18:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Atlantic: The Omicron Reset: When Delta swept across the United States last year, the extremely transmissible and deadlier variant threw us into pandemic limbo . The virus remained a danger mostly to unvaccinated people, but they largely wanted to move on. Vaccinated [... want %more?] → https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/01/omicron-mild-covid-pandemic-reset/621207/ | 18:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: EU Replaces Southern Africa Travel Ban With Testing Requirements → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0pcqn/eu_replaces_southern_africa_travel_ban_with/ | 18:44 |
| Dredd | LjL: what did they say? | 18:46 |
| LjL-Matrix | Dredd: not much of interest really, maybe the most interesting question is the one he's answering now, "why hasn't as much attention paid on the treatments as on the vaccines", and he's replying that among monoclonals only one works on Omicron (as we know), so it's important to identify variants before infusing antibodies (good thing then our PCRs don't have STGF), and we've also ordered Paxlovid and Molnupiravir (ugh) | 18:52 |
| LjL-Matrix | Unfortunately he isn't answering the basic question "why do patients 'treated' at home only get told to take paracetamol and nothing else" | 18:52 |
| LjL-Matrix | Which is a good question when some important Italian doctors have stated there would be better initial treatments | 18:52 |
| Arsanerit | treatment to stop infections from becoming disease? | 18:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Small study finds common coronavirus cold may help protect against COVID-19 infection → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0ppgr/small_study_finds_common_coronavirus_cold_may/ | 19:03 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Greece: +27766 cases, +85 deaths, +130443 tests (21.3% positive) since a day ago — United Kingdom: +53545 cases, +4926180 tests (1.1% positive) since 22 hours ago — Djibouti: +140 cases, +608 tests (23.0% positive) since a day ago | 19:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: No jab, no job: Citigroup to fire unvaccinated staff this month - memo → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s0q2e3/no_jab_no_job_citigroup_to_fire_unvaccinated/ | 19:13 |
| LjL | Arsanerit: more like disease from becoming hospitalizable disease | 19:17 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: These Tests Are Recommended - How To Find Reliable Rapid Covid Tests → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0q3ny/these_tests_are_recommended_how_to_find_reliable/ | 19:22 |
| LjL | My cousin tested positive once on rapid, then negative twice, then she got a pharmacy test and that was also negative, and the pharmacy people told her apparently "this is 99% reliable" so now she's going to visit her mom who's in the ER... I don't think that's a good idea but I can't override what the pharmacy said, I just wonder why the fuck they said that | 19:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: U.S. breaks COVID-19 hospitalization record as Omicron surges → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0qib2/us_breaks_covid19_hospitalization_record_as/ | 19:32 |
| dTal | LjL: something something bayesian | 19:39 |
| dTal | "99% reliable" isn't actually mathematically meaningful | 19:41 |
| dTal | if it makes you feel better, it's super easy to get a false positive on a lateral flow. Had she been drinking an acidic liquid immediately before taking the test? | 19:42 |
| dTal | and what's a "pharmacy test"? Is that like the "enhanced lateral flow"? | 19:43 |
| LjL-Matrix | dTal: if the probabilities of getting a negative while positive were independent of each other... But I doubt they are | 19:47 |
| LjL-Matrix | <dTal> "if it makes you feel better, it..." <- I don't know, but I just read a study yesterday that said they didn't have ANY false positives with rapid tests (false negatives, sure) except with one particular batch | 19:48 |
| dTal | well I had one, and people fake them all the time too | 19:48 |
| LjL-Matrix | <dTal> "and what's a "pharmacy test"? Is..." <- Best of my knowledge it's just a lateral test administered by a pharmacy, which unlike the self-administered ones allows you to get a green pass from it, but wasn't someone saying the other day that pharmacies actually sometimes have some kind of "mini-PCR" they do themselves? (Though it'd be the first time I heard of those here) | 19:49 |
| LjL-Matrix | dTal: they fake positives? I "understand" faking negatives... :p | 19:50 |
| dTal | Yeah, all you have to do is use an acidic liquid. Citrus, vinegar, coca cola (phosphoric acid) | 19:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Tens of thousands march in Germany against COVID-19 restrictions → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0qzhz/tens_of_thousands_march_in_germany_against/ | 19:52 |
| LjL | dTal, i'll ask | 19:53 |
| dTal | Given the 3 consecutive negative tests, I think it much more likely that test number 1 was a fluke, than that it somehow detected what the other - identical - tests missed | 19:54 |
| LjL | dTal: well she had fever and headache for a day and a half, and the other two tests were not the same brand as the first | 19:56 |
| dTal | ....being symptomatic radically changes the equation | 19:57 |
| LjL | dTal: well she didn't get tested four times just for fun | 19:57 |
| LjL | Also I don't know about acid, but our tests are to be done in the nose, not mouth | 19:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: Coronavirus: Leaked email shows Downing Street staff were invited to drinks party during COVID lockdown → https://www.politico.eu/article/downing-street-staff-were-invited-to-drinks-party-amid-covid-lockdown/ | 20:01 |
| lastshell | is funny for or xmas/new year gattering 7 of 8 got covid | 20:02 |
| lastshell | wonder if my aunt is asyntomatic | 20:02 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Canada: +21942 cases, +40 deaths since 23 hours ago — Italy: +101762 cases, +227 deaths, +612821 tests (16.6% positive) since 23 hours ago — Greenland: +476 cases, +1 deaths, +1091 tests (43.6% positive) since 19 hours ago — Maldives: +454 cases since 23 hours ago | 20:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: France averages new record of nearly 270,000 new Covid cases per day → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0rojp/france_averages_new_record_of_nearly_270000_new/ | 20:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: Paul-Ehrlich-Institut - Homepage - Tabellen: Vergleichende Evaluierung der Sensitivität von SARS-CoV-2 Antigenschnelltests (Selbsttests + Schnelltests) (Stand 14.12.2021): Type Web Page URL [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/PE9M4TS7 | 20:30 |
| LjL | de-facto, did we already have the list above ↑ somewhere in some other form? i remember we had a list from i think the ECDC or EMA | 20:35 |
| LjL | but these are actually *tested* by the PEI, right, not just taking the specificity/sensitivity values from the manufacturer? | 20:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: At-Home Coronavirus Tests Are Inaccessible to Blind People → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0s1w9/athome_coronavirus_tests_are_inaccessible_to/ | 20:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: valerie: Arcturus Therapeutics Inc: ARCT-165 → https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/148/ | 20:49 |
| lastshell | pandemic is over https://www.charterworks.com/omicron-offices-return/ | 20:50 |
| xx | meanwhile smart companies have closed their offices because they save money on rent, A/C, cleaning, ... | 20:53 |
| xx | centre of tokyo is full of massive buildings that are *empty*, it's a silent revolution that will not end well for that place | 20:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: News Scan for Jan 10, 2022: Common cold and COVID-19 protection H5N6, H9N2 avian flu cases in China → https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/01/news-scan-jan-10-2022 | 20:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: valerie: AnGes: AG0301-COVID19 → https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/3/ | 21:08 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for French Guiana: +4510 cases, +1 deaths, +18864 tests (23.9% positive) since 2 days ago — Cyprus: +4187 cases, +4 deaths since a day ago — Kuwait: +3683 cases, +1 deaths, +36318 tests (10.1% positive) since a day ago — Algeria: +482 cases, +10 deaths since a day ago | 21:08 |
| sem | What kinds of masks provide the N95-equivalent measure of personal protection? | 21:15 |
| lastshell | kn95 or n95 only afik | 21:16 |
| lastshell | don't use cloth masks | 21:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: valerie: Arcturus Therapeutics Inc: ARCT-154 → https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/140/ | 21:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: valerie: Altimmune Inc: AdCOVID → https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/75/ | 21:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: valerie: Aivita Biomedical Inc: AV-COVID-19 → https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/74/ | 21:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: States and health systems activate crisis standards, new protocols as omicron strains U.S hospitals → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0tw1q/states_and_health_systems_activate_crisis/ | 21:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Virginia: Northam Declares State Of Emergency For Overwhelmed Hospitals Amid COVID Surge → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0u5a6/virginia_northam_declares_state_of_emergency_for/ | 22:05 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Spain: +292394 cases, +202 deaths since 2 days ago — United Kingdom: +142200 cases, +76 deaths since 14 hours ago — Turkey: +63266 cases, +141 deaths, +403104 tests (15.7% positive) since 23 hours ago — Luxembourg: +3836 cases, +8 deaths, +13263 tests (28.9% positive) since 3 days ago | 22:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: Pfizer COVID vaccine 91% effective against inflammatory syndrome: Mary Van Beusekom | News Writer | CIDRAP News Jan 10, 2022 The vaccine was 91% protective against MIS-C, a rare inflammatory disorder. → https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/01/pfizer-covid-vaccine-91-effective-against-inflammatory-syndrome | 22:15 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.11.21257016v1 | 22:41 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.medrxiv.org: Comparative sensitivity evaluation for 122 CE-marked SARS-CoV-2 antigen rapid tests | medRxiv | 22:41 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.eurosurveillance.org/content/10.2807/1560-7917.ES.2021.26.44.2100441 | 22:42 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.eurosurveillance.org: Eurosurveillance | Comparative sensitivity evaluation for 122 CE-marked rapid diagnostic tests for SARS-CoV-2 antigen, Germany, September 2020 to April 2021 | 22:42 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.pei.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/newsroom/dossiers/evaluierung-sensitivitaet-sars-cov-2-antigentests.html | 22:43 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.pei.de: Paul-Ehrlich-Institut - Homepage - Tabellen: Vergleichende Evaluierung der Sensitivität von SARS-CoV-2 Antigenschnelltests (Selbsttests + Schnelltests) (Stand 14.12.2021) | 22:43 |
| de-facto | LjL, those ^^ | 22:45 |
| de-facto | not sure how well that applies to Omicron though | 22:46 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.04.22268770v1 | 22:47 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.medrxiv.org: Discordant SARS-CoV-2 PCR and Rapid Antigen Test Results When Infectious: A December 2021 Occupational Case Series | medRxiv | 22:47 |
| sem | I found some masks that are KN95, except not medically sterile | 22:48 |
| sem | gb-2626-2006 | 22:49 |
| de-facto | KN95 is Chinese standard N95 US standard FFP2 EU standard, all roughly comparable | 22:50 |
| de-facto | .title https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/whats-difference-between-n95-kn95-masks/ | 22:51 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From smartairfilters.com: What's The Difference Between N95 and KN95 Masks? - Smart Air | 22:51 |
| de-facto | .title https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/comparison-mask-standards-rating-effectiveness/ | 22:52 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From smartairfilters.com: Comparison of Mask Standards, Ratings, and Filtration Effectiveness – Smart Air | 22:52 |
| aradesh | cool, the BBC has debunked that vaccine-hesitant doctor from the other day https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/59929638 | 22:52 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.pnas.org/content/118/49/e2110117118 | 22:52 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.pnas.org: An upper bound on one-to-one exposure to infectious human respiratory particles | PNAS | 22:52 |
| de-facto | sem ^^ | 22:53 |
| sem | ty | 22:53 |
| aradesh | he's such a careless doctor - casting doubt onto the efficacy of the vaccine, rather than just talking about what impacts he thinks the new rule will have on NHS staff | 22:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Omicron patients who have received the vaccine do not need intensive care → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s0vapv/omicron_patients_who_have_received_the_vaccine_do/ | 22:53 |
| aradesh | hopefully that headline from reddit is an observation, rather than an instruction to hospital staff :D | 22:56 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Ireland: +23909 cases since a day ago — Bosnia and Herz.: +3141 cases, +37 deaths since 4 days ago — Palestine: +1496 cases, +33 deaths since 4 days ago — Sudan: +912 cases since 4 days ago | 23:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: Omicron surge sweeps through US hospital staff: Lisa Schnirring | News Editor | CIDRAP News Jan 10, 2022 As hospital bed occupancy nears record levels, a quarter of US hospitals report critical staffing shortages. → https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/01/omicron-surge-sweeps-through-us-hospital-staff | 23:12 |
| vlad_ | So, Moderna vaccine is still being considered as "best" choice? | 23:19 |
| vlad_ | Quite late, but I have my first appointment for vaccination, and trying to decide between Pfizer and Moderna | 23:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: ChristianaCare, other Delaware hospitals implement emergency rules to handle COVID-19 surge → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0vyjm/christianacare_other_delaware_hospitals_implement/ | 23:22 |
| de-facto | vlad_, whats your age if i may ask? | 23:25 |
| vlad_ | de-facto: of course, I'm 32 | 23:25 |
| de-facto | ok i am asking because in some Scandinavian countries they do not give Moderna to under 30 year olds, because it may have a slightly increased risk of inducing myocarditis compared to BioNTech/Pfizer | 23:27 |
| de-facto | the risk still is extremely low though and mainly located on young males, in their 20s for 1st week after 2nd shot | 23:27 |
| de-facto | but its super low risk, and imho it does not really matter | 23:28 |
| de-facto | i am 40 and got 3 times Moderna, 100µg, six weeks later 100µg and 5 months after that 50µg, never had any side effects other than muscle hurt for 3 days and some headache | 23:28 |
| de-facto | just do not do anything with elevated pulse rate for 2 weeks after each injection and you should be fine with either choice | 23:29 |
| de-facto | I personally, if i had the choice, would go for Moderna again because it got a slightly higher dose hence immunity from it does have a slightly slower contraction, in reality the difference does not really matter though | 23:30 |
| de-facto | LjL, may know more | 23:30 |
| vlad_ | Thanks for that. I didn't heard about myocarditis. But still I'm past 30. The thing I've read is that Moderna's efficiacy is better because of higher dose in single shot | 23:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Missouri COVID case trends may double previous record → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0vzte/missouri_covid_case_trends_may_double_previous/ | 23:31 |
| vlad_ | (vs Pfizer, which is I believe 30mcg) | 23:32 |
| de-facto | yes your info is correct | 23:32 |
| de-facto | protection starts from ca 2 weeks after injection, but you will need a second shot after 6 weeks to become fully immunized | 23:34 |
| de-facto | with either of them | 23:34 |
| vlad_ | Thank you. Just got scheduled for tommorow for my first Moderna shot, hooray. | 23:41 |
| de-facto | yay congratz :) | 23:42 |
| de-facto | good choice, but keep in mind, no high pulse rates for next two weeks, moderate movement is good (and beneficial) though, hence just go for walks, not run | 23:43 |
| vlad_ | I work from home and I'm avoiding crowded areas as much as possible, I hope I will have time to become immunized | 23:43 |
| vlad_ | de-facto: yes sir, will do | 23:43 |
| de-facto | wear a good mask while going there for receiving the vaccination | 23:44 |
| vlad_ | I will need to get that ffp3 somewhere | 23:45 |
| vlad_ | Hmm | 23:45 |
| de-facto | or good FFP2, if it seals around the edges it should be fine too | 23:45 |
| de-facto | especially left and right to the nose, there are the most likely locations for leakage, so if you find one with foam it may have a better fit around the nose | 23:46 |
| vlad_ | I've seen FFP2/FFP3 masks with the ventilation hole, so I have up on them | 23:46 |
| de-facto | yeah those are good for your own protection, exhaling through the valve keeps your filter dry (and effective) but also does not filter exhaled air | 23:47 |
| de-facto | thats why some places do not permit valved masks, i have both, mainly go with 3M FFP2/3, they have very good fit | 23:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Study offers reassurance on COVID shots, menstruation → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s0wk1h/study_offers_reassurance_on_covid_shots/ | 23:50 |
| de-facto | i am quite glad i got vaccinated, Omicron wave is about to arrive at my place here in the coming weeks | 23:51 |
| de-facto | i can see it approaching, places spiking come nearer | 23:51 |
| vlad_ | I see. Yeah, 3M is trusted brand, but I doubt I'll find it here by tommorow, will go with anything that have ffp2/ffp3 on it | 23:51 |
| de-facto | yeah most should be fine, just make sure its got a good fit | 23:52 |
| de-facto | some use medical tape to improve air tight fit around the edges, i personally have never tried that yet | 23:52 |
| de-facto | anything FFP2/3 should be more or less fine, with correct fit orders of magnitude better than surgical masks | 23:53 |
| vlad_ | Yeah I understand. I was between jobs change and I just realized few days ago that I don't need insurance to get vaccinated | 23:53 |
| de-facto | yeah its for free in most places | 23:54 |
| Timvde | Bob Saget passed away, people are saying that it may be related to his sister passing away with scleroderma and him receiving a booster on the 13th of December. Anyone with any clue how likely that is? | 23:54 |
| de-facto | depending on the system you need ID and vaccination pass | 23:54 |
| vlad_ | I have not been sick since the pandemic have stared, or have any severe symptoms, so I hope I'm just fine | 23:55 |
| de-facto | yeah | 23:55 |
| de-facto | buy some good food, eat extra healthy, no alcohol no coffee | 23:55 |
| vlad_ | de-facto: I'm on while food plant based diet from Feb 2021. Lots of kale, arugula, vegetables and sane amout of fruits | 23:56 |
| vlad_ | s/while/whole | 23:57 |
| de-facto | oh that sounds both healthy and delicious :P | 23:57 |
| vlad_ | Honestly I didn't look back since. Of course it was hard on the beginning, but now it's just part of daily life and I can't stand smell of meat | 23:58 |
| vlad_ | (well, at least McDonalds) | 23:58 |
| vlad_ | (Probably good and nice prepared meat would trigger me) | 23:59 |
| de-facto | in addition to healthy food i also take some supplements such as multi-vitamin, C, D3, B12, Zn, Fe, Ginkgo, Green Tea etc | 23:59 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.17.0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at https://mg.pov.lt/irclog2html/!