libera/##covid-19/ Sunday, 2022-01-16

BrainstormNew from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Quebec teachers demand N95 masks, better ventilation as province prepares for return to school → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s4wigr/quebec_teachers_demand_n95_masks_better/00:04
BrainstormNew from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Effectiveness of Covid-19 Vaccines over a 9-Month Period in North Carolina → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s4xi8a/effectiveness_of_covid19_vaccines_over_a_9month/00:51
BrainstormNew from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Apple reportedly requires employees to get COVID-19 vaccine booster shots → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s4yb8v/apple_reportedly_requires_employees_to_get/01:29
BrainstormNew from r/COVID19: COVID19: Free at-⁠home COVID-⁠19 tests. Every home in the U.S. can soon order 4 free at-⁠home COVID-⁠19 tests. The tests will be completely free—there are no shipping costs and you don’t need to enter a credit card number. → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/s4z0xd/free_athome_covid19_tests_every_home_in_the_us/01:48
BrainstormNew from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Starting today US insurance companies are required to fund 8 home covid test kits per user/month - post links here to insurance reimbursement forms as you find them? → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s4z4ts/starting_today_us_insurance_companies_are/02:07
LjLde-facto, https://twitter.com/kchr_grr_krch__/status/1482518106274676736 was Drosten ever really saying this?02:09
LjLalso, what is Leonardi on about? https://twitter.com/fitterhappierAJ/status/136061889120718438902:12
de-factoyes he was saying that02:12
LjLi suppose/hope it was at a time when vaccines were just out and there weren't enough to vaccinate anyone but the most vulnerable...02:13
LjLbut some tweet below that has a translation here he(?) says we can't keep vaccinating every few months and we'll have to let the virus get to everyone02:14
LjLs/here/where/02:14
de-facto.title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e7qQZ9029k&t=1086s02:14
Brainstormde-facto: From www.youtube.com: Corona-Lage mit Lauterbach (SPD), Drosten & Wieler (RKI) | BPK 14. Januar 2022 - YouTube02:14
de-factohe said it in context, at that timecode, the video got auto generated captions that can be autotranslated02:15
LjLde-facto, uhm, well that's a pretty heavy statement still though, i know the WHO and someone from the EMA have also expressed that we can't keep vaccinating everyone every couple of months indefinitely, and i agree, but i thought at least from the EMA side it was more like "we'll do it for now, maybe one or two more shots, until we have more solid vaccines"02:20
LjLbut instead he's saying the virus will definitely infect everyone, not that we'll have intranasal and/or multivalent vaccines before that happens02:21
LjLi don't really agree we should let the virus update people's immune signatures02:21
de-factowell since we decided that the virus will be tolerated to spread in our populations instead of aiming for zero-covid we somehow have to coexist with it02:23
de-factoi think this is a mistake, but unfortunately people disagree02:23
de-factoso assuming coexistence with the virus is the goal we would need to think about how to minimize impact on health by it02:24
de-factoantibodies are a costly resource for the immune system, especially if needed in such crazy high amounts that are able to prevent infection by such a crazy infectious pathogen with its usual contamination doses02:25
de-factoso we probably can not afford to maintain an antibody concentration that is high enough to provide sterilizing immunity for all our lifetime02:26
de-factohence that means, sooner or later, we will get infected, due to that viral replication is tolerated in our society02:26
de-factoso the real question is: how can we prepare for such an infection that will reach us in order to minimize probability for it to damage our health too much02:27
de-factoit probably will induce some damage though, that is inevitable, yet we want it to be as minimal as possible by preparing our immune system memory resources to launch an appropriate response and minimize damage as quick as possible02:28
de-factothat is the only way not occupying too many immune resources but still be prepared to not have too much damage to our body when the contamination arrives02:29
de-factothere will be no sterilizing vaccines for this disease, ever.02:29
de-factothats a pipedream that simply is not possible due to our immune system and the pathogen properties02:30
de-factohence its only realistic to assume, that at some point the update of immunity will happen via infection, with the cost of health damage and maybe some deaths, its always a probability gamble with virus infections and diseases, there are no guarantees02:31
de-factothe problem is though, this virus is much more contagious than e.g. influenza or such02:31
de-factoso i am not sure if peoples expectations are realistic when imagining a seasonal endemic SARS like disease02:32
TuvixI'd like to think continued research will provide more tools, be it more protective vaccines, or ones that may not necessarily prevent cases from spiking now and then, but are more effective at keeping hospitals from getting hit.02:32
TuvixAlthough the latter assumes we actually can get vaccine uptake; using the US as an example, many don't take seasonal flu vaccines, and there's at least now not much movement to require it. Other countries are taking a partial-requirement approach, but some don't comply there either, or decide what they're restricted from doing isn't worth vaccinating for.02:33
TuvixOr travel to a country with requirements and risk getting deported instead…02:33
de-factolong term sterilizing immunity will simply not be possible02:34
de-factoinfections will take place and that will have some costs02:34
TuvixRight, but imagine some alternate world where 99.9% of the US population was vaccinated & boosted; this Omicron surge wouldn't have hit hospitals nearly as badly.02:34
de-factoyeah sure02:34
TuvixSame with the UK, but I'm using the US since it's fared a lot worse ever since Delta.02:35
de-factothe more naive someones immune system goes into the battle with this pathogen the more bruises it will take from getting beaten around by this virus02:35
TuvixI think the helath impact of this isn't even fully understood yet. Not just the immediate cost on healthcare systems in stress and literal euros/dollars spent, but in long-term negative impacts we don't really even understand.02:36
TuvixKind of like the true harm in smoking wasn't understood well 60 years ago.02:36
de-factoindeed long COVID is not well understood at all02:37
de-factoand most likely there are some auto-immune issues involved02:37
de-factothat is quite worrying because some of the auto-immune diseases we know of have no cure yet02:37
de-factoif that is the case with COVID induced auto-immune issues, we simply do not know yet02:37
de-factonot to begin to speak of organ damages such as lung-fibrosis or damage to small vessels in the brain etc02:38
TuvixI'm starting to think of poorly designed and then even more poorly implemented COVID reduction plans a bit like that scene in Star Wars Ep II where there's great cheering as the republic is abandonded for the empire. We're openly welcoming a known pathogen whose full damage we don't yet know into our lives.02:39
de-factoi think peoples expectations for tolerating a endemic SARS like coronavirus disease are not realistic02:40
TuvixI'm very interested to see the CDC's death broken down by age & vaccination status when it updates. I think within the week the data should be updated though mid-Nov, although that still wouldn't include Omicron info for another month yet :\02:41
dTalTuvix: that's Ep 3, Revenge of the Sith.02:41
TuvixAh, thanks, been a while since I've seen the early ones :P02:41
dTalAnd nobody's cheering covid, it's more like we're giving up.02:41
TuvixI mean, if that's the aim, then maybe we can give up in a way that doesn't mess up our hospitals for everyone.02:42
TuvixOr just build 5x the hospitals we have now :\02:42
TuvixI'm sure no one will mind the extra hit to national GDP to do that, right?02:42
dTalThere's growing calls to stop treating antivaxers.02:42
de-factoin Germany a court ruled that for triage vaccination status or handicaps can not be considered as that would be discrimination02:44
TuvixOr limit capacity in some meaningful way. When hospitals "fail" they don't stop intake. They just tetris the patients into tighter and tighter spaces.02:44
TuvixYea, the US is similar, and the irony is that the ER / hospitals are the country's most expensive and wasteful form of "social healthcare" because they legally cannot turn you away.02:45
Tuvix(I mean, some go "on divert" but then you just get shipped to a further hospital to be seen.)02:45
de-factomaybe COVID hospitals should get separated from normal hospital operation02:45
TuvixRight, but no one wants to pay for it. That's why the nursing shortage is so bad, and that was an issue pre-COVID; the pandemic is just showing the weakpoints in the system.02:45
de-factothey already have to separate stations for isolating the contagious COVID patients, so why not separate them completely, also in terms of resources and personnel?02:46
de-factothat way the costs also would be separated and stations could be optimized for dealing with COVID patients02:47
TuvixI mean, sure, sounds great. Staff them with what extra staff we have that are trained? And put them in what buildings that are prepared with the right medical supplies?02:47
LjL<de-facto> there will be no sterilizing vaccines for this disease, ever. <de-facto> thats a pipedream that simply is not possible due to our immune system and the pathogen properties02:47
TuvixThe actual cost of that would be huge.02:47
LjLi don't think you had said this before02:47
LjLi guess you changed your mind based on the fact that antibodies just need to stay up and the time it takes for B cells to make them is not enough?02:48
de-factoi did say something like this at least since Delta, maybe earlier02:48
TuvixI partially agree, unless we have some massive breakethrough in medical science on this issue. I'd settle for something that's like seasonal influenza+, the plus being something worse but obviously a LOT better than the nCoV we have today.02:48
LjLde-facto, i just thought you also kept thinking that intranasal vaccines + multivalent vaccines could do the job02:48
TuvixDelta & Omicron showed that breakthrough is a reality, and we also learned how the vaccine-induced antibodies (plus those from immunity) wane and can be knocked down further with varients good at evading them.02:49
de-factowell of course intranasal multivalent vaccines would be an improvement, but even they could not predict future antigenic drift, hence there will be evasion02:49
TuvixYea, we're back to the mutations causing problems, not unlike how flu vaccines may or may not be a great fit for any given year.02:50
TuvixToday's mRNA vaccines are a "not ideal" match to Delta/Omicron.02:50
TuvixThey do something, but a lot less than would have been convenient.02:50
LjLwhat about the pan-sarbecovirus vaccine? if the US military is actively trialing it, i think they're probably serious that it could be quite useful02:51
de-factoand we dont even know how long intranasal mucus immunity will last, i bet it may fade quite quickly, but leave resident B-cells and T-cells there that divide and ramp up pretty quickly when seeing something like a future version of the pathogen02:51
de-factoyet they probably wont prevent infection as in sterilizing immunity, why else would we see reinfections?02:51
TuvixI mean, they're at least stopping most of the serious complicaitons, but IMO we really need to get at least to a point where any boosters / updates are an annual thing.02:51
TuvixI'm not sure how practical a 2 to 3 times a year boost for an entire population is in practice.02:52
de-factoagain, think about it, even if we had a pan-sarbecovirus vaccine, it would need to maintain a crazy high concentration of antibodies for how long? our full life?02:52
de-factothat would be really expensive in terms of immune system resources, the immune system still would have to be able to also deal with all the other diseases we face on a daily basis02:52
LjLTuvix, it is not... but while the EMA person was saying that it wouldn't be practical *in the long term*, but we can do it temporarily, it sounds like Drosten is just saying we must let the virus itself give us immunity. which is honestly something i used to hear from... not Germany02:52
TuvixTo stop spread? Right. I'd be happy if infections could mostly be fought off by the body's T/B-cell produced antibodies, even it that means we see some community spread.02:52
TuvixOh sure, short term we really have to do whatever it takes to avoid the next surge from being as bad as this one has.02:53
de-factoso it needs to be resource efficient, only can afford to invest limited resources into the most common scenarios it would encounter, so if we would want to have permanent sterilizing immunity, that would come at some (resource) cost02:54
TuvixSome countries are doing better, but the US was just pounded with it's almost non-existant Delta recovery.02:54
TuvixWe didn't really recover from Delta at all; we just had a lull that was not even a reduction by half of the death rate.02:54
de-factoi dont think that would be good, we need our immune system to also have free resources to deal with other pathogens, hence the constant *additional* load from COVID is a significant disadvantage, even with the best vaccine imaginable02:54
TuvixAnd the best vaccines don't do any good if a notable portion refuse them.02:55
de-factoso therefore its a big disadvantage for a populations health to tolerate a SARS like coronavirus in constant circulation02:55
TuvixAt least not for that population.02:55
de-factoit will make all of us less healthy, significantly reducing our life expectancy02:55
de-factoand i think the experts begin to realize that too if they see that vaccination every few months is not the brightest future for our immune systems02:57
de-factonow let me ask one question: is the impact on the immune system resources by infection every few months of more or less magnitude?02:58
de-factoif its possibly more impact updating our immunity by infection would mean even more load on our immune system, simply by tolerating COVID as seasonal endemic disease02:58
de-factothis is a bad idea in my opinion02:58
TuvixOf overall impact? I mean, I think that depends on a lot of variables, such as how significant re-infection is from varient-to-varient. Omicron showed us that this is indeed a realistic possibility.02:59
TuvixObviously with this one, but that means in the future too.02:59
de-factowhat if naive T-cells are going to be depleted at some time?03:00
TuvixI've seen some research that's talked about long-term B-cell memory, but I'm not sure how that gets measured short of noting outcomes in people as they get (re)-infected.03:00
de-factowhat if the virus acquires some more superantigenic capabilities inducing immune reactions that do not lead to neutralization of its replication?03:01
TuvixSure, or worse, manage to cause the immune system to respond in a new way that causes problems to other parts of the body.03:01
de-factowhat if it sets conditions into play that lead to progressing immune system degeneration?03:01
TuvixThat too is a possability from what I understand, although one that's not a _common_ outcome today except in people with exsiting conditions.03:01
de-factowe do not know such things, this is a completely new pathogen even after 2 years it comes with many surprises03:02
TuvixHopefully some of the therapudics coming to market help balance some of those odds in at least the most severe of cases.03:02
LjLa bit too many surprises03:02
LjLtoday (well, yesterday by now for some), Tonga, one of the very few countries with virtually zero COVID cases, has had a very large volcanic eruption and a tsunami03:04
LjLirony ;(03:04
BrainstormNew from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: S. Korea: Daily cases over 4,000 for 5th day amid strict curbs ahead of holiday → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s506cu/s_korea_daily_cases_over_4000_for_5th_day_amid/03:04
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Vaccine rules for truck drivers entering Canada come into effect → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s50jaq/vaccine_rules_for_truck_drivers_entering_canada/03:14
de-facto.title https://www.nature.com/articles/s41423-020-0402-203:25
Brainstormde-facto: From www.nature.com: Functional exhaustion of antiviral lymphocytes in COVID-19 patients | Cellular & Molecular Immunology03:25
LjLfrom another channel, and i don't really want to take them here to discuss it because it would be flames, but, for fuck's sake...03:28
LjL<foo> I don't personally believe in long covid <LjL> you don't... <foo> I don't really know <bar> Oh it's a thing, it just seems kind of rare. <foo> I wouldn't say no one has it <LjL> go tell that in the face of someone who has it <foo> Yeah probably pretty rare <LjL> kind of rare? <foo> I wouldn't do that <LjL> 10 to 40% is kind of rare? <LjL> maybe with omicron it is, hopefully <bar> Is that what the stats are? I haven't kept up.03:28
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: City of Beijing reports first local Omicron case → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s50ui1/city_of_beijing_reports_first_local_omicron_case/03:34
BrainstormNew from r/COVID19: COVID19: Who else thinks the “vaccines”should be stopped immediately? Too many people dead.. why are people still being injected → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/s519oq/who_else_thinks_the_vaccinesshould_be_stopped/03:53
LjLwhat the fuck, Brainstorm03:53
LjL13% upvoted, and you post it? :|03:54
LjLoh, i actually forgot to update the feeds file, whoops03:55
de-facto.title https://www.nature.com/articles/s41590-021-01113-x04:33
Brainstormde-facto: From www.nature.com: Immunological dysfunction persists for 8 months following initial mild-to-moderate SARS-CoV-2 infection | Nature Immunology04:33
de-facto"Patients with LC had highly activated innate immune cells, lacked naive T and B cells and showed elevated expression of type I IFN (IFN-β) and type III IFN (IFN-λ1) that remained persistently high at 8 months after infection."04:34
de-facto"Combinations of the inflammatory mediators IFN-β, PTX3, IFN-γ, IFN-λ2/3 and IL-6 associated with LC with 78.5–81.6% accuracy."04:34
LjLthen my question is, does the immune system remain hyperactive because it goes bonkers, or is the virus still around to cause it04:37
de-factogood question04:41
de-factobut its a problem if it remains hyperactive after 8 months obviously04:41
de-factooh wow Omicron arrived in Beijing China in community transmission?04:43
de-facto*before* Olympic winter games04:43
BrainstormNew from ##covid-19 Zotero group: Immunological dysfunction persists for 8 months following initial mild-to-moderate SARS-CoV-2 infection: Type Journal Article Author Chansavath Phetsouphanh Author David R. Darley Author Daniel B. Wilson Author Annett Howe Author C. Mee Ling Munier Author Sheila K. Patel Author [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/IR8B53W304:45
xxthere are olympic games happening?05:06
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV: Insurance now covers at-home COVID testing kits. How to get free tests or reimbursement → https://old.reddit.com/r/CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV/comments/s53q0g/insurance_now_covers_athome_covid_testing_kits/06:10
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: India: Covid curbs go for a toss as 10,000 people attend a "bovine wedding" → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s5464e/india_covid_curbs_go_for_a_toss_as_10000_people/06:29
BrainstormNew from r/Science: science: Scientists found that individuals with a specific gene variant have a 20% lower risk of developing critical COVID-19 symptoms. This variant was found in 80% of Africans who participated in the study. → https://old.reddit.com/r/science/comments/s56asx/scientists_found_that_individuals_with_a_specific/08:51
BrainstormNew from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | January 16, 2022: Please refer to our Wiki for more information on COVID-19 and our sub. You can find answers to frequently asked questions in our FAQ , where there is valuable information such as our: → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s56ypn/daily_discussion_thread_january_16_2022/09:09
Bridgestorm❗ 地震预警 / EARTHQUAKE WARNING for Taiwan (just felt near Puli?) — Follow for updates (www.kmoni.bosai.go.jp)09:17
-Bridgestorm- ⭕ 地震? Earthquake? M7- estimated tremor, possibly occurred 3 minutes ago (08:15:23 UTC), during daytime, Puli, Taiwan (23.78, 121.16) ± 9 km, ↓10 km likely felt 380 km away (in 臺中市, 埔里鎮, 吉安鄉, 花蓮市, 南投市, 草屯鎮…) by 4.0 million people with maximum intensity Shindo 3 — Webcams: https://www.windy.com/webcams/1630860992 https://www.windy.com/webcams/161026268009:19
-Bridgestorm- https://www.windy.com/webcams/1597217056 (www.kmoni.bosai.go.jp)09:19
sdfgsdfgLjL about those messages from 6 hours ago, they made me look into long covid demographics just to be a bit more clear on this, I've been maybe too concerned about LC. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01292-y.pdf  while 30-40 age group sits around 5% it's about 20 for 50-60, same for 60-70 and 25% for >=7009:49
sdfgsdfgagain at least it's not that bad that higher percentages start with 60 and above09:50
sdfgsdfgnot sure if this is the biggest survey done so far, it's from april 2021. data is n=4100 total infections, including not -long covid... it's not that good even though it's Nature publication09:58
sdfgsdfgst vincent seems to be 147 long covid patients, nature one is about 500 if I remember right10:01
bontaqis there any reason florida is suddenly seeing a big drop in covid deaths besides covering up information?11:15
bontaqie if there's an article about them changing what they call a "covid death" or something I'd be interested in reading11:16
sdfgsdfgit's probably ending there11:17
sdfgsdfgyou can't cover up covid deaths11:19
sdfgsdfgbut you can call all sorts of other deaths a covid death too11:19
sdfgsdfgso maybe you can cover up covid deaths ?11:20
xxsdfgsdfg: it's easy to "cover up covid deaths" by changing 'dying with covid' to 'dying of covid'11:20
sdfgsdfgbut that's what everyone is doing right11:21
sdfgsdfgthis is an admitted fact by hospitals11:21
ZdrytchX.cases11:33
ZdrytchX.cases australia11:33
BrainstormZdrytchX: the world has had 322.0 million confirmed cases (4.2% of all people) and 5.6 million deaths (1.7% of cases; 1 in 1378 people) as of 3 days ago. 4.7 billion tests were done (6.8% positive). 3.4 billion were vaccinated (44.0%). +780 cases since a day ago. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=the%20world&legacy=no11:33
BrainstormZdrytchX: If you know of an official or otherwise good site for data about the world, with a reasonably short URL, please %tell LjL about it.11:33
BrainstormZdrytchX: Australia has had 1.4 million confirmed cases (5.5% of all people) and 2522 deaths (0.2% of cases; 1 in 10174 people) as of 2 days ago. 58.0 million tests were done (2.4% positive). 20.5 million were vaccinated (79.8%). +154145 cases since 22 hours ago. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Australia&legacy=no11:33
BrainstormZdrytchX: If you know of an official or otherwise good site for data about Australia, with a reasonably short URL, please %tell LjL about it.11:33
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: The unvaccinated are now forbidden to use public transportation in the Philippines starting tomorrow → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s5951h/the_unvaccinated_are_now_forbidden_to_use_public/11:50
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Europe's unvaccinated minority are falling out of society → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s59out/europes_unvaccinated_minority_are_falling_out_of/12:28
Tuvixbontaq: "Florida on Friday reporting its biggest COVID-19 death spike since the Thanksgiving holiday" (source: https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/news/2022/01/15/florida-covid-deaths-spike-omicron-surges-deadly-toll-begins-show/6512006001/ ) . I wouldn't call that a drop.12:58
TuvixNote that Florida weekly report published (by their 'Florida Health' group_ explicitly excludes non-residents, and as of August, changed their case classification criteria as well: http://www.floridahealth.gov/diseases-and-conditions/disease-reporting-and-management/disease-reporting-and-surveillance/_documents/covid-19-case-definition.pdf13:06
TuvixFlorida also has lawyers involved by the news orginzations were unhappy with some of the lack of information being published, according to that same news stored I linked above.13:07
xvxwhat is it called when you do a squeezy sort of cough?13:31
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): nCoV: Global COVID Cases For 16JAN22 → https://old.reddit.com/r/nCoV/comments/s5awd0/global_covid_cases_for_16jan22/13:33
xvxis there a term other than "clear your throat"?13:36
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): nCoV: Uruguayans and residents may return by car even if they are COVID-19 positive | 15JAN22 → https://old.reddit.com/r/nCoV/comments/s5bkdj/uruguayans_and_residents_may_return_by_car_even/14:11
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): nCoV: Thailand reports first death from Omicron coronavirus variant | 16JAN22 → https://old.reddit.com/r/nCoV/comments/s5bnjh/thailand_reports_first_death_from_omicron/14:21
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): nCoV: Japan's daily COVID-19 cases top 20,000 for 3rd day in row | 16JAN22 → https://old.reddit.com/r/nCoV/comments/s5btla/japans_daily_covid19_cases_top_20000_for_3rd_day/14:30
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): nCoV: Expect more worrisome variants after omicron, scientists say | 15JAN22 → https://old.reddit.com/r/nCoV/comments/s5c2aj/expect_more_worrisome_variants_after_omicron/14:49
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Italian nurse accused of giving fake Covid jabs to anti-vaxxers arrested → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s5c91x/italian_nurse_accused_of_giving_fake_covid_jabs/15:08
BrainstormNew from Politico: Austria’s vaccine mandate to apply from February 1: Unvaccinated people face police checks and fines of up to €3,600 from mid-March. → https://www.politico.eu/article/austrias-vaccination-mandate-to-apply-from-february-1/15:46
peetaurand yet we call this "democracy"15:57
Arsaneritpeetaur: Who walls what democracy?16:00
dTaljust because you don't like it, doesn't make it not democracy16:23
dTalit just means you're outnumbered16:24
TuvixFines and other incentives against breaking rules are common elsewhere in society. It's part of the cost of enforcing the rules (socially, politically, and economically) vs. not having them (or having them and not enforcing them) and the impact that has on those measures.16:25
dTalhttps://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/717/428/c6e.jpg16:27
TuvixI can't ignore traffic rules without risking fines, loss of my driving permission given to me by my jurisdiction, or even being jailed for a serious enough offense. It's still a democracy, just one where we've decided breaking those rules is a problem.16:27
dTallot of people getting a lot of misconceptions about government cleared up lately16:27
dTalI feel like this is a sign our civics classes could use some work16:28
TuvixPerhaps not fast enough in some places. Some of the emerging information about the US aftermath of the last presidential election is shocking specifically due to the lack of attention to basic civics. Things like not falsifying documents sent to state & federal authorities.16:29
ArsaneritdTal: to be fair, democracy is a bit more than majority rule16:29
Arsaneritbut being unvaccinated is not a protected minority16:29
ArsaneritIt's fair to take decisions for mandatory vaccinations only very carefully.16:29
dTalArsanerit: well, folks say that a lot, but they tend to start mumbling when pressed for details16:30
dTalif it's not majority rule, then what is it? Minority rule?16:30
dTalthose are kind of the only two choices16:30
ArsaneritIt involves taking decisions by majority, but also includes protections of fundamental rights.16:32
dTalWho is it that stands up to the majority, when the majority wants the "wrong" thing?16:32
TuvixEffectively most democractic-based systems today, broadly speaking, have abstractions involved. Concepts of representation by political figures who don't necessarily vote on every issue the way the majority of their populations would prefer means it's a representative republic more than a pure one-vote-per-citizen on every issue design.16:32
ArsaneritdTal: The constitution and the courts enforcing the constitution.16:32
ArsaneritIn many countries, courts can overrule parliamentary decisions as unconstitutional.16:33
dTalSo it's really rule by the courts.16:33
ArsaneritNo; it's a combination.16:33
TuvixThey can, although often what happens is laws get updated to comply with whatever will stand up to court review then too.16:34
TuvixThere's a dynamic involved, and that can even include courts at different levels having differing opinions on matters.16:34
ArsaneritTuvix: That can happen, but it may require higher barriers than a simple majority.16:34
ArsaneritIn Germany, there are some articles of the constitution that cannot be changed in any way.16:34
TuvixSure, and if the politicians can't agree enough to meet that bar, it could mean the court decision stands despite a majority disagreeing.16:35
dTalTuvix, I know that in the case of the united states, and I suspect tacitly a great many other places, the abstraction is specifically engineered to empower a privileged class because the broader public is not trusted16:35
TuvixYes, although that empowering is arguably abused more now than it used to be.16:35
dTalAt least, it was my understanding that this was a specifically cited role of the electoral college.16:36
TuvixThat depends a lot on who you ask, but concepts like drawing maps to "group the voters you want into districts" is pretty obviously asking for trouble when the map-drawers have their own agendas.16:36
ArsaneritGiven the history of Germany, I can understand why those who drafted the post-WW II constitution would put those protections in place.16:36
dTalIn the case of the UK, this institution of a privileged class acting as a check on democracy is explicitly reified in the form of the House of Lords16:37
TuvixArsanerit: I mean, with enough inertia, those unchangable rules can still be changed by disolving the constitution and re-creating a new one.16:37
dTalalthough ironically the House of Lords consistently makes superior judgements to the House of Commons, so perhaps there is something to the philosophy16:37
ArsaneritTuvix: Yes — "political power comes from the barrel of a gun", ultimately.16:38
TuvixRight, though you don't need a literal weapon to do that, although we could probably just call it a political weapon at that point.16:38
ArsaneritI am not sure if one in practice declare the constitution to be out of force without having literal weapons to enforce this coup (which it would be).16:39
TuvixCoup implies outside interference. If you get enough support from the inside, it becomes "legal" even if the rules say it isn't.16:40
de-factothe democratically elected politicians are supposed to act in the favor of majorities, if requiring a tested and safe vaccination from everyone is necessary to prevent overwhelming of the hospital system and thereby prevent it from becoming unavailable to majorities it is what the pandemic situation imposes on those unvaccinated minorities that threaten the healthcare system with their attitude16:40
ArsaneritThere are still armed forces which are required to uphold the constitution, so you'd need them on your side if you declare the constitution to be out of force.16:40
TuvixYou just change the rules and suddenly what you did is just fine. You point to the new rules that say so! :\16:40
ArsaneritTuvix: No, a coup does not imply outside interference.16:40
ArsaneritTuvix: The existing rules say that some rules cannot be changed, therefore, any change to those unchangeable rules is illegaly.16:41
ArsaneritBut we're getting off-topic.16:41
TuvixAt least the dictionary I have says a coup is, "a sudden, violent, and unlawful seizure of power from a government" -- if it's the government changing the rules, it hasn't lost power.16:41
TuvixArguably it would at least be "unlawful" in that example.16:41
dTal"The government" isn't a unitary entity though16:42
ArsaneritIt would be an unlawful seizure of power, as it would dramatically enlarge the power of whoever orchestrates it.16:42
TuvixYea, and there'd presumably be infighting as factions formed who were for/against it.16:42
dTalif one part of government undermines the larger framework of government, then that's a coup16:42
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Austria’s vaccine mandate to apply from February 1 → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s5e2bi/austrias_vaccine_mandate_to_apply_from_february_1/16:43
TuvixYea, fair enough.16:43
ArsaneritIf the president declares the constitution to be out of power, thereby stating that parliament and courts don't matter, then I think that could still be considered a coup.16:43
ArsaneritBUT16:43
ArsaneritNone of that applies to the Austrian mandatory vaccinations.16:44
TuvixRight, and I'm sure there are already groups working on contesting that within the law, and the usual portion who will intentionally disregard the rules anyway.16:45
ArsaneritI wonder how the mandatory vaccinations handle boosters.16:46
de-factoin Germany its the parliament that votes (in secret and without party cohesion, each member on individual opinion) over several suggestions how to deal with the problem emerging from the non-vaccinated16:46
TuvixMeanwhile here in the US, we're on-pace over the next couple of days to outpace the rate of death from the Delta wave now that we're in the middle of Omicron. And to your booster point, we haven't even updated what 'fully vaccinated' means here either, but it's largely moot without broad requirements for social gatherings.16:46
lastshelldoes fully vaccinated include had booster and had omicron ?16:47
lastshellor Im still anti-vaxxer16:48
lastshell:P16:48
Tuvixde-facto: So that's intersting; do those votes become public eventually? It's a neat idea to try to limit party involvement, but at some point voters need to know how their leaders voted on major issues to decide if they deserve to say in office.16:48
de-factoso the process is very democratic, as each member of parliament can vote individually on their own opinion on what is in best interest of majorities16:48
de-factoi dont think votes will be made public, members of parliament should have maximum freedom to vote16:50
TuvixSo you could win an election by saying you'll do one thing, then do the exact opposite for actual votes once in power?16:51
de-factowe have some very crazy people here in Germany, they are marching with torches to the private homes of politicians, so publishing individual results would make such parliament votes impossible16:51
TuvixAh, sure, death-threats for political figures here is commonplace, including some who have gone to similarlly crazy measures, such as looking up detailed info on their spouses and children and leaving detailed and horrifying statements.16:52
TuvixOne news story recently was a guy arrested driving across the country with high-powered firearms, stating he intended to kill a political figure.16:53
de-factoif the system would become unable to protect the freedom of choice in favor of majorities (not only the voters of a party) of the politicians it would not be democracy anymore, because then it would transition to a system where the power is hold by those that risk the most reckless approaches (such as threatening politicians), that can not be tolerated at all and must be stopped in the begin16:55
TuvixBy that measure, the number of the political figures here not running for re-election due to some of those issues is not a promissing trend.16:57
TuvixSOme could be burned out by this over the years and pushed over the edge with the rising of the temperature for a combination of issues specific to the US plus COVID division; healthcare is another sector where we're seeing staff burnout due to the high stress and lack of effective change in that sector.16:58
TuvixThe healthcare issue more clearly a result of COVID, but the underlying cracks in the system were largley there before. That I think isn't a US-specific problem either, since many countries are struggling to deal with health systems doing their core jobs.16:58
lastshellYeah if covid doesn't kill us the climate change will do it16:58
de-factoits very important that society cohesion somehow is restored, integrating minorities and thereby enabling to agree on shared goals and work together on solutions17:00
ArsaneritSome communities are having problems finding qualified people running for mayor due to threats issues against mayors, even about issues that seem trivial.17:01
de-facto"Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law." -  Immanuel Kant, Groundwork of the Metaphysic of Morals17:08
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): Sunday 16 January 2022 Update: submitted by /u/HippolasCage to r/CoronavirusUK → https://old.reddit.com/r/CoronavirusUK/comments/s5euuq/sunday_16_january_2022_update/17:11
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid news: All restrictions in England to end within DAYS | Politics | News → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s5fc2x/covid_news_all_restrictions_in_england_to_end/17:39
LjL-MatrixMy cousin wasn't supposed to be positive when he first checked, but then he had fever, it lasted just three days and now he's feeling fine again, but now his rapid test is positive. So I guess rapid tests are a useful additional tool in addition to PCR and the common sense from having symptoms, and it doesn't necessarily just reflect whether or not you're currently having symptoms. As long as they aren't used to just determine you're18:47
LjL-Matrixnegative and noninfectious even though you just had symptoms...18:47
de-factoyes a friend of mine (she had 2nd BNT vaccination 4 moths ago) did get a warning by corona warn app in the fall, she tested with rapid test everyday and only after symptoms started and 5 days after exposure it became positive (probably back then with Delta)18:51
de-factoshe probably was infectious before already18:51
TuvixThat first test was a rapid antigen? I think those are slower, although technically PCR can be slower if you count processing time when there's a delay in getting those to the lab and actually tested.18:51
de-factoRAT are much less sensitive18:52
TuvixSlower as in the antigen take longer than a PCR, discounting any shipping/processing issues.18:52
TuvixThat's also, as I undersatnd, why the RAT tests are so good at being right when they say you are positive.18:52
TuvixBy the time you have enough virus to show up on that test, you're almost surely quite positive.18:53
Tuvix(and likely contagious as well)18:53
TuvixBlah, very misleading statement by a conservative national politician here this morning stating that the risk is greater for the older vaccinated populations than the younger unvaccinated ones. That's only true (using CDC data up through October) if you consider the youngest and oldest agegroups; it is not true comparing for example a 35 year old and a 75 year old, which I think he's intentionally19:03
Tuvixassuming his supports would assume he is.19:03
TuvixThat kind of "true, but only for a very specific subset of data" claim is dangerous because it's not called out when it happens, only in venues like this.19:05
LjLTuvix, all of the ones i mentioned were rapid antigen tests19:11
LjLi mean, all the ones they took19:11
TuvixGood grief, this senator is a doctor too (I'm unclear if PhD or MD, but either way that's really awful for him to peddle such lies to the public)19:13
TuvixHe literally tried to get in a closing statement about how information the CDC has published about VE vs. prior varient infection is, according to him, incorrect. Naturally he doesn't provide any citation or reference.19:14
ArsaneritWhy is that dangerous?  It means people need to get vaccinated AND vaccinated people still need to be careful, in particular the oldest ones.19:14
Arsaneritafaik people in ICU are mostly either old or unvaccinated19:14
LjLwell it may "mean" that in your own interpretation of it but from the way Tuvix described it, it seems pretty plain to me that to many in the public it'd "mean" younger people just shouldn't very concerned with COVID at all19:16
TuvixArsanerit: It's dangerous because he's clearly implying that the younger group need not get vaccinated since they're risk is "lower than" another age group. Yes, you & I know that we'd rather not be at the same risk as an elderly individual (vax'd or not) for COVID complications, but he's speaking to people that don't get that.19:16
LjLit completely beats me how so many people don't seem to see the rather obvious reactions the general public is going to have to some statements :|19:17
TuvixBut his facts are also wrong, at least if you think that 35 is younger than 75.19:17
LjLi'm not a sociologist but it's really not that hard in some cases19:17
TuvixHe also claimed that prior immunity is as good as vaccination, which the CDC does not show, but again, he's talking to an audiance that wants to hear the information he's giving even if it's somewhere between very misleading and borderline incorrect.19:18
TuvixIt confers _some_ protection, but not as good as vaccination (and I'm including boosters here, since that's the recommendation if you're following the science and want the best odds you can have against severe outcomes)19:18
ArsaneritHmm, I thought I had read that antibodies from prior infection appears to last longer than antibodies from vaccination?19:19
TuvixAs someone near-ish to 35 years old, I consider myself a lot younger than 75 year old, thank you ver much :P. My odds of death would be WORSE than a vaccinatd 75-year old. I'd be at 159% the risk of the vaccinated 75 year old if I wasn't vaccianted at all.19:20
Tuvix(going by Delta's surge values, becuase I don't yet have CDC dat on anything newer)19:20
ArsaneritAs a 35-year old I'm more worried about long covid than death honestly19:21
TuvixArsanerit: We're talking outcomes, notably death. He specifically claimed death in the age comparison.19:21
ArsaneritAh, ok.19:21
Tuvix159% the risk of a 75 year old does not sound great to me, but that's why I'm vaccinated :P19:21
TuvixI'm sure there are lots of 30-somethings at the local bars around me that disagree with their odds though…19:21
ArsaneritI don't have enough context to estimate 159% the risk of a fully vaccinated 75 year old.19:21
ArsaneritThat's a relative statement.19:21
Tuvixhttps://imgur.com/a/Lm9sdzR19:22
ArsaneritI don't know what the risk of death of a fully vaccinated 75 year old is.19:22
TuvixCompare the incidence rates of a vaccinated 30 age-group with a 75 year old.19:22
TuvixI just linked you the CDC data; I believe I included the link to the raw data and you can use the CDC's viz feature to plot your own charts if you want to reproduce my work.19:22
TuvixDivide 17.16 (sept death incidence rate for a 30-49 age range during delta's peak for unvaccinated) by 10.81 (incidence rate for vaccinated 65-79 range.)19:23
TuvixI'm using the same month as well, not just the worst of the peak for both groups, but the values are similar using the 2 worst months of Delta with CDC's data.19:23
Arsaneritlight blue is unvaccinated, dark blue is vaccinated?19:24
TuvixYea, and the top portion is incidence rate per 100k of the respective populations.19:24
BrainstormNew from Politico: Boris Johnson’s blame game over lockdown parties could backfire: Whitehall experts warn that pinning the blame for lockdown parties on officials is unlikely to defuse anger at UK prime minister. → https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-whitehall-blame-game-lockdown-parties/19:24
TuvixI have raw charts below, but be careful with those since it's easy to forget that, with most of the older populations more vaccinated, they'll have "more" of a share of the pure numbers simply because there aren't as many unvaccinated to fall ill and die.19:24
Arsanerityes, it's easy to intentionally or unintentionally draw wrong conclutions from raw data19:25
TuvixI've got another vizisulation that shows the older age-groups now have less deaths than some of the middle-age groups. In fact, all of the youngest portions are dying in higher numbers than they were in prior peaks, while the oldest few age groups are improving.19:25
TuvixThat's a worrying trend.19:26
Arsanerit17.16 meaning 17.16 deaths per 100k people for the entire month?19:26
Tuvixyes.19:26
TuvixUh, hang on.19:26
Tuvix(other chart while I verify that figure for you: https://imgur.com/a/5KLFM3I ) -- that shows the changing age-ranges impacted over time.19:28
KlindaI think I recovered from omicron, took me 5/6 days19:28
ArsaneritWish you a good recovery19:28
KlindaI had sore troath, cold, cough, fever19:29
ArsaneritSounds unpleasant.19:30
Klindayes it was, like the first 3 days19:30
KlindaI couldn't talk like the voice was low19:31
TuvixThe ratios from the first chart should still be correct, but it looks like I may have a cartesian factor in the data; good catch.19:35
TuvixThe rows have extra entries so you can break down vaccination status, but that results in them getting double-counted if you don't select in combination all the vaccines you want to include, or use the `all_types` row. The summary of the data fails to mention this…19:36
Klindado you think my both doses helped me?19:36
KlindaI did in August19:36
Klindahere in my country, they say only with the third dose it' effective19:38
TuvixKlinda: vs. being unvaccinated? Absolutely. That reduces odds of severe outcomes, and since it was stilly somewhat recently for an infection given your last dose was within 5-6 months, that's still better than someone who got 2 doses earlier but no booster.19:38
TuvixWell, it depends on vaccination product too; I'm going based off of the studies for mRNA or AZ x2 + mRNA.19:38
TuvixI know a lot less about the other vaccination products, but you might check out a UK technical update that breaks down your protection with 2 doses vs. 3 for the UK-offered vaccines. I think I have a link for you somewhere.19:39
TuvixKlinda: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1045619/Technical-Briefing-31-Dec-2021-Omicron_severity_update.pdf19:40
TuvixThat's from this nice trove of UK documents: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-of-sars-cov-2-variants-technical-briefings19:41
BrainstormNew from r/COVID19: COVID19: Persistent SARS-2 infections contribute to long COVID-19 → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/s5i6dk/persistent_sars2_infections_contribute_to_long/19:43
KlindaI did the Pfizer, so mrna vaccine19:43
TuvixYea, so 5 months out you're (at least here in the US) eligible for a booster now, down from 6 months. The protection does begin to wane after about 20 weeks (so 5 months, give or take) but you're still more protected against severe outcomes than the unvaccinated. Antibodies waning is only part of the problem though, since Omicron requires significantly more antibodies to succesfully fight off.19:44
TuvixPart of what boosting does is add additional antibody responses, and improve the T/B-cell memory in a way that improves outcomes further in light of Omicron's partial immune-evading mutations.19:46
Klindahere they say like if you don't do the third booster, it's useless the both doses did in August...19:46
Klindabut for all?19:46
TuvixSee page 12 of the PDF I linked, specifically this part: "One dose of vaccine was associated with a 35% reduced risk of hospitalisation among symptomatic cases with the Omicron variant, 2 doses with a 67% reduction up to 24 weeks after the second dose and a 51% reduced risk 25 or more weeks after the second dose, and a third dose was associated with a 68% reduced risk of hospitalisation."19:47
Klindaif you are younger, < 30 age, it's different?19:48
Klindamaybe the immune sysetms works better19:48
TuvixIn general, yea, at least compared to older age-groups.19:48
Klindano one knows the long term effects ?19:49
Klindalike I know some pepole who can't smell or taste, but for me I have it19:51
TuvixIt's an area of ongoing study, but there's some good research in that area. This brain-imaging study which included scans before COVID was around suggests neurological implications: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.11.21258690v319:52
BrainstormNew from r/COVID19: COVID19: Symptoms COVID 19 Positive Vapers Compared to COVID 19 Positive Non-vapers → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/s5ihg5/symptoms_covid_19_positive_vapers_compared_to/19:52
TuvixWe still don't really undersatnd all the mechanics, but early evidence seems to be showing that the vaccinated have less risk of long-term symptoms, and they may last for a shorter period of time as well, but we don't really understand the mechanics behind long-covid.19:53
KlindaI did all, maybe I missed the third dose..19:55
KlindaI can't do nothing19:55
Tuvix2 is a lot better than zero, and <30 age-range plays in your favor more than being older would.19:56
KlindaI hope20:00
TuvixI mean, the fact that you're recovering after a positive test and (I presume) didn't have severe complications requiring a hospital visit is good.20:01
KlindaI took paracentamol and an antibiotic20:02
Klindathat's it20:02
Klindanow I am "fine"20:02
TuvixThat's what the vaccines are very good at preventing. It's also helpful to reduce symptomatic infection, but less so, and that's especially true of Omicron. It just spreads so easily that even if you're vaccinated and do the best job you can masking around social interactions, it can still infect.20:02
Klindais like spreading like the birds?20:05
TuvixI haven't heard that comparison before, but sure. We've even got birds at the south pole…20:06
Klinda"bird flu"20:08
TuvixSARS-CoV2 is distinct from avian flus like H1N1.20:08
BrainstormNew from r/COVID19: COVID19: False-Positive Results in Rapid Antigen Tests for SARS-CoV-2 → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/s5itnt/falsepositive_results_in_rapid_antigen_tests_for/20:11
Klindathe bad this is that rapid test could be negative20:11
Klindaand one can infect the others too20:12
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Austria makes COVID-19 vaccination mandatory starting February. → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s5iuk6/austria_makes_covid19_vaccination_mandatory/20:21
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: More hospitalized patients getting COVID-19, maybe from infected staff → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s5ja2p/more_hospitalized_patients_getting_covid19_maybe/20:40
BrainstormNew from r/COVID19: COVID19: One in ten people may still be infectious for COVID after ten days, new research indicates → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/s5jtpp/one_in_ten_people_may_still_be_infectious_for/21:08
BrainstormNew from This Week In Virology: TWiV 854: Omicron is evasive: TWiV reviews findings that increased fitness of the Omicron variant is due to immune evasion, not an increase in intrinsic transmissibility, and determination of infectious viral load in patients infected with wild type, Delta and Omicron viruses reveals lack of correlation [... want %more?] → https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-854/21:18
* LjL has a backlog of 853 TWIVs before he listens to that one21:19
dTalthat doesn't make any sense though, omicron is surely spreading far better than any prior variant21:20
dTal*despite* the existing immunity21:20
dTalwe got up to 5% of the whole population infected in a single week here in UK21:20
dTalOG covid didn't manage that21:20
LjLi don't know, i'm sure some would say there was much more immunity than we thought there was because more asymptomatics etc21:21
LjLremember back when antibody surveys were somewhat fashionable, they all found ridiculously high numbers of previously infected?21:21
dTalomicron's R is dramatically better than any prior variant21:21
LjLwell i don't even know what findings they're referring to21:22
dTalI'm talking about the very first wave, absolutely no prior immunity21:22
LjLfirst wave also almost absolutely no ability to actually count cases21:23
LjLit looks much smaller than later waves, but likely wasn't21:23
dTalwe have some idea of the doubling time though, purely from the fatal cases21:23
LjLbut then with omicron we don't have *so* many fatal cases, how does that compare?21:24
LjLwe know the cases are so many more... but are they?21:24
dTalI'm not sure your point21:24
TuvixIn terms of pure number? Depends on how well your citizens are vaccinated and what they do socially in response to the disease.21:24
dTalwe can estimate doubling time well for every variant21:25
LjLalso here yesterday they pulled out some number on TV, based on the ISS here which is authoritative, where vaccines (boosted, presumably) would give you a 98% protection from death. that seems a bit absurd, we may as well data that the protection ranges from 0 to 100%21:25
TuvixWhen it's all said and done, the upswing and decline from Omicron might actually outpace Delta for deaths in the US, or at least it'll be close. That depends a bit on how quickly fatalities recover to pre-Omicron levels.21:25
TuvixI guess we really have to time-constrain Omicron since we never "recovered" from Delta.21:26
dTalI just don't see how it can plausibly be claimed that omicron isn't vastly better at transmission21:26
LjLwell i'm not claiming it so my point is i will shut up i guess21:26
dTaland I in turn haven't examined the study at all so I guess I will too :p21:26
dTalhttps://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.27.21268278v121:27
dTal^the paper, for reference21:27
dTalright away it seems they counted single vaxed people as unvaxed21:29
dTalthat's... dubious21:29
LjLis there only that one "finding" involved?21:34
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): Covid2019: Large study finds COVID-19 is linked to a substantial deficit in intelligence → https://old.reddit.com/r/Covid2019/comments/s5l69i/large_study_finds_covid19_is_linked_to_a/21:56
LjLthat's one of the... i guess several things that terrify me about long covid or whatyoucallit21:58
LjLbut i assume it's just the same old study about IQ points loss being recycled by the news21:58
LjLyeah it's https://www.zotero.org/groups/4391070/covid_links/collections/4HEWBIA7/search/cognitive/titleCreatorYear/items/E65G9TWS/item-list22:01
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid alert: New Omicron sub-variant in the UK is highly transmissible → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s5lxj4/covid_alert_new_omicron_subvariant_in_the_uk_is/22:43
ArsaneritAre they saying stupid people are more likely to catch the virus?22:51
oerheksyes, no, áfter they had it..22:52
ArsaneritWhat if stupid people are more likely to catch the virus than smart people, after controlling for all other factors?22:53
de-factobrain damage? lovely22:53
de-facto.title https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00324-2/fulltext22:53
Brainstormde-facto: From www.thelancet.com: Cognitive deficits in people who have recovered from COVID-19 - EClinicalMedicine22:53
de-facto"People who had recovered from COVID-19, including those no longer reporting symptoms, exhibited significant cognitive deficits versus controls when controlling for age, gender, education level, income, racial-ethnic group, pre-existing medical disorders, tiredness, depression and anxiety. "22:53
de-facto"The deficits were of substantial effect size for people who had been hospitalised (N = 192), but also for non-hospitalised cases who had biological confirmation of COVID-19 infection (N = 326)."22:54
de-facto"Analysing markers of premorbid intelligence did not support these differences being present prior to infection. Finer grained analysis of performance across sub-tests supported the hypothesis that COVID-19 has a multi-domain impact on human cognition."22:54
de-facto"These results accord with reports of ‘Long Covid’ cognitive symptoms that persist into the early-chronic phase. They should act as a clarion call for further research with longitudinal and neuroimaging cohorts to plot recovery trajectories and identify the biological basis of cognitive deficits in SARS-COV-2 survivors."22:55
de-factowhat does that mean for countries with an economy dependent on workers mental abilities?22:55
TuvixThis sounds like a generalized and non-brain-specific analysis in the same line as the UK Biobank imaging study pre/post COVID.22:56
ArsaneritFodder for conspiracy theorists: they want to make us all stupid so they can more easily turn us into consumerist slaves!22:56
Arsanerit</s>22:56
de-factocountries that would not allow their citizens to be contaminated may have a mentally more fit working force for their economy if above holds23:08
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: The Army of Millions Who Enforce China’s Zero-Covid Policy, at All Costs → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s5n5h5/the_army_of_millions_who_enforce_chinas_zerocovid/23:31
Arsaneritif they succeed, which I doubt23:36
ArsaneritNo democratic state managed to keep covid away and no dictatorial state can be trusted to report honestly.23:36
finely[m]Arsanerit: Western Australia did.23:38
de-facto.title https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/new-zealand/ 5M people23:40
Brainstormde-facto: From www.worldometers.info: New Zealand COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer23:40
de-facto.cases New Zealand23:41
Brainstormde-facto: New Zealand has had 14889 confirmed cases (0.3% of all people) and 52 deaths (0.3% of cases; 1 in 95639 people) as of 3 days ago. 5.7 million tests were done (0.3% positive). 4.0 million were vaccinated (79.9%). +2 cases since 5 hours ago. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=New%20Zealand&legacy=no23:41
Brainstormde-facto: If you know of an official or otherwise good site for data about New Zealand, with a reasonably short URL, please %tell LjL about it.23:41
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: France: new virus law bans unvaccinated from public venues - France’s parliament approved a law Sunday that will exclude unvaccinated people from all restaurants, sports arenas, and other venues → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s5nbnz/france_new_virus_law_bans_unvaccinated_from/23:41

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.17.0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at https://mg.pov.lt/irclog2html/!