| Brainstorm | New from Novavax: (news): Australia Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) Grants Provisional Registration for Novavax COVID-19 Vaccine → https://ir.novavax.com/2022-01-19-Australia-Therapeutic-Goods-Administration-TGA-Grants-Provisional-Registration-for-Novavax-COVID-19-Vaccine | 00:30 |
|---|---|---|
| Brainstorm | New from NPR Science: Booster longevity: Data reveals how long a third shot protects: Now researchers in the U.K. have the first estimates for how long a third shot of the Pfizer vaccine will last. The findings are mixed. → https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2022/01/19/1071809356/booster-longevity-data-reveals-how-long-a-third-shot-protects | 00:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Lancet (Online): [Articles] Global burden of bacterial antimicrobial resistance in 2019: a systematic analysis: To our knowledge, this study provides the first comprehensive assessment of the global burden of AMR, as well as an evaluation of the availability of data. AMR is a [... want %more?] → https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02724-0/fulltext | 01:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: ‘The scientists, they’re learning more’: A defiant Biden defends the CDC amid mounting criticism: President Biden acknowledged Thursday that the CDC has struggled to communicate about Covid-19. But he blamed “the nature of the way diseases spread” — without [... want %more?] → https://www.statnews.com/2022/01/19/biden-defends-cdc-criticism-covid-response/ | 03:06 |
| LjL | MOAR LERNING | 03:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: Starbucks drops COVID vaccine mandate after Supreme Court ruling: The coffee giant said it was responding to last week's Supreme Court ruling that rejected the Biden administration's plan to require vaccines or COVID [... want %more?] → https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2022/01/19/1074276634/starbucks-drops-covid-vaccine-mandate-after-supreme-court-ruling | 03:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: COVID concerns will keep NBC announcers home from the Beijing Olympics: NBC Sports officials say their plan of covering the Olympics from its Stamford, Conn., facility is a similar strategy used to cover the delayed 2020 Tokyo [... want %more?] → https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2022/01/19/1074256301/nbc-not-sending-sports-announcers-to-winter-olympics | 04:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: New Zealand Judge tells unvaccinated defendant he refuses to accept 'nutcase views' → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s8a0co/new_zealand_judge_tells_unvaccinated_defendant_he/ | 05:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR Science: New Zealand will not impose lockdown when omicron hits: "This stage of the pandemic is different to what we have dealt with before. Omicron is more transmissible," Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said. → https://www.npr.org/2022/01/20/1074310637/new-zealand-no-lockdown-omicron-variant | 07:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Seven days in medicine: 12-18 January 2022: Covid-19Wales eases level of social restrictionsThe first minister of Wales, Mark Drakeford, announced the easing of social restrictions that have been in place since Boxing Day in response to the... → http://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o124.short | 07:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Hong Kong hamster massacre: Residents resist ‘zero covid’ city’s pet project → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s8cre7/hong_kong_hamster_massacre_residents_resist_zero/ | 08:12 |
| sdfgsdfg | wtf why do they want to kill innocent house hamsters that don't even socialize with other hamsters ? | 08:19 |
| xx | sdfgsdfg: humans shouldn't own pets anyway | 08:20 |
| xx | it's slavery | 08:20 |
| xx | and I very much support the bravery of asian countries in their zero tolerance for covid policy, unlike the west | 08:22 |
| sdfgsdfg | yeah agreed with both ofc | 08:22 |
| sdfgsdfg | they're doing a good job. I'm almost considering living in some peaceful asian country for a while | 08:22 |
| xx | well bad news is that those peaceful asian countries will not accept you because you're an outsider and that's how they kept peace so far | 08:23 |
| sdfgsdfg | with the good job that they're doing they didn't even need the vaccine | 08:23 |
| xx | they are almost fine with tourists, but moving there, living there, working there? Yeah they don't like that. | 08:24 |
| sdfgsdfg | you only want one of them to like it | 08:24 |
| sdfgsdfg | :P | 08:25 |
| sdfgsdfg | for a year or two in thaland | 08:26 |
| sdfgsdfg | thailand* | 08:26 |
| sdfgsdfg | that was my friend's dream | 08:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid-19: Hamsters abandoned in streets as Hong Kong announces mass cull, NGOs 'shocked, concerned' → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s8cvd9/covid19_hamsters_abandoned_in_streets_as_hong/ | 08:31 |
| xx | cull the hamsters! The entire species if possible. Make it extinct. Having one less species that can transmit a disease to humans is a plus in my book. | 08:34 |
| xx | a deadly disease | 08:35 |
| undefined_bob | some people eat hamsters | 08:35 |
| xx | I'm sure they can find other sources of nutrition | 08:36 |
| xx | “If, say, horses and dogs are the ones infected, would you decide to kill them all?,” she said. | 08:38 |
| xx | yes, very much yes | 08:38 |
| jacklsw | whoa, eating hamsters? | 08:52 |
| xx | people eat weirder things | 09:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | January 20, 2022: Please refer to our Wiki for more information on COVID-19 and our sub. You can find answers to frequently asked questions in our FAQ , where there is valuable information such as our: → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s8dsz3/daily_discussion_thread_january_20_2022/ | 09:09 |
| sdfgsdfg | also culling is just killing most of them, not all of them | 09:29 |
| sdfgsdfg | extinction is a whole different thing right | 09:29 |
| sdfgsdfg | culling should be fine | 09:29 |
| xx | I want to prevent all future transmissions too, hence the extinction | 09:40 |
| sdfgsdfg | you'd have to break into homes of random people and kill their last surviving hamsters | 10:16 |
| sdfgsdfg | that would be a biblical event for them | 10:16 |
| sdfgsdfg | with the added hint of drama and thrill | 10:16 |
| xx | hamsters don't live long, so it should be enough to just stop breeding them | 10:34 |
| humpelstilzchen[ | shouldn't you also want to extinct the humans, too? | 10:34 |
| xx | close down pet shops and the problem solves itself | 10:34 |
| xx | humpelstilzchen[: true, stopping the breeding of humans would also solve all problems | 10:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Djokovic has 80% stake in biotech firm developing Covid drug | Novak Djokovic not anti-vax according to CEO → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s8eq9a/djokovic_has_80_stake_in_biotech_firm_developing/ | 10:35 |
| sdfgsdfg | xx it obviously won't be enough if some people have bred female and male hamsters somewhere | 10:37 |
| sdfgsdfg | and provided them with the absolute best creature comforts | 10:37 |
| sdfgsdfg | and all they had to do was to drink their spicy hamstermargharitas and fuck | 10:37 |
| xx | sdfgsdfg: those people can't compete with the massive number of hamsters being bred for petshops | 10:38 |
| sdfgsdfg | I'm with the outcast hamsters scenario lol | 10:38 |
| sdfgsdfg | I'm happy with* | 10:38 |
| sdfgsdfg | they won't be transmitting assuming they will be safe outcast hamsters | 10:39 |
| xx | still slavery though | 10:39 |
| xx | being bred for human entertainment | 10:39 |
| xx | and could transmit some future diseases, so best to get on top of it before it happens | 10:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: What's new: Document: Chloroquine : List of nationally authorised medicinal products - PSUSA/00000685/202104 → https://www.ema.europa.eu/documents/psusa/chloroquine-list-nationally-authorised-medicinal-products-psusa/00000685/202104_en.pdf | 11:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: NHS Tracker: How is the NHS in your area coping this winter?: Winter and Covid are putting the NHS under severe strain, find out what's happening in your area. → https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59549800 | 11:25 |
| sdfgsdfg | now that it's over in UK we need a new rap song about post covid | 11:47 |
| sdfgsdfg | a big celebration marked by the final hamster culling event | 11:47 |
| undefined_bob | lol its far from over | 11:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid pandemic is 'nowhere near over' and new variants are likely to emerge, WHO warns → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s8g2et/covid_pandemic_is_nowhere_near_over_and_new/ | 11:54 |
| undefined_bob | lol thanks Brainstorm | 11:57 |
| xx | undefined_bob: politicians decided it's over | 12:04 |
| undefined_bob | yeah but thats not how it works at all :( | 12:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: North Korea warns it may rethink moratorium on nuclear and missile tests → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s8gl2n/north_korea_warns_it_may_rethink_moratorium_on/ | 12:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Novak Djokovic holds major stake in firm developing Covid drug: CEO → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s8grlg/novak_djokovic_holds_major_stake_in_firm/ | 12:34 |
| xx | well looks like north korea has some plans on getting rid of covid infection in people | 12:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from ECDC: Data on the daily subnational 14-day notification rate of new COVID-19 cases: Data in various file formats with information on the 14-day notification rate of new cases per 100 000 inhabitants for COVID-19, sorted by day and subnational region, and updated on a [... want %more?] → https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/subnational-14-day-notification-rate-covid-19 | 13:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): nCoV: Global COVID Cases For 20JAN22 → https://old.reddit.com/r/nCoV/comments/s8hpmk/global_covid_cases_for_20jan22/ | 13:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: All plan B Covid restrictions, including mask wearing, to end in England → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/s8i0fi/all_plan_b_covid_restrictions_including_mask/ | 13:52 |
| xx | so it's over | 13:58 |
| Tuvix | xx: No, it's not. It's unhelpful to continue saying that. | 13:58 |
| xx | well it definitely sounds like it's over | 13:59 |
| xx | otherwise they wouldn't end those restrictions | 13:59 |
| Tuvix | Death say otherwise. https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths | 14:01 |
| xx | deaths don't determine when it's over, politicians do | 14:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from Contagion Live: COVID-19 Booster Shots: Population Trends: Jeff Goad, PharmD, MPH, and Angela Rasmussen, PhD review the population trends of COVID-19 booster shots. → https://www.contagionlive.com/view/covid-19-booster-shots-population-trends | 14:02 |
| peetaur | instead of over, over until next fall then? | 14:02 |
| xx | (and sometimes deaths of politicians determine when stuff is over) | 14:02 |
| xx | peetaur: they don't have fall in UK | 14:02 |
| peetaur | next "flu and covid season" then? | 14:03 |
| xx | well that's a problem for future politicians | 14:04 |
| Tuvix | UK currently has 28.6 times the daily deaths compared to July 1. | 14:05 |
| xx | UK currently has 0.5% more population than last year | 14:07 |
| Tuvix | That has nothing to do with COVID. This is not relavant to COVID and you are continuing to say unhelpful things, apparently to continue to roll in this channel. | 14:07 |
| Tuvix | to troll* | 14:08 |
| xx | it is related to covid, to show that population has not decreased as a result of it | 14:08 |
| undefined_bob | puh | 14:08 |
| xx | and this has very likely contributed to the politicians decision to end the restrictions | 14:09 |
| undefined_bob | it has not | 14:09 |
| undefined_bob | Boris just want to safe is ass | 14:09 |
| undefined_bob | *his | 14:09 |
| xx | does one person have such power in UK? | 14:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from Contagion Live: Communicating the Benefit of COVID-19 Booster Shots to Patients: Donald Alcendor, PhD, and Angela Rasmussen, PhD, explain how to discuss the importance of COVID-19 booster shots with patients. → https://www.contagionlive.com/view/communicating-the-benefit-of-covid-19-booster-shots-to-patients | 14:12 |
| Tuvix | UK is seeing a notable rise in deaths since the beginning of 2022: https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/united-kingdom#what-is-the-daily-number-of-confirmed-deaths and then a couple charts down the you can see two accelerating points the last 6 months, once at July and another in January, while the rate of death was much flatter between April to June by comparison. | 14:19 |
| xx | yet the politicians remove restrictions, so how do you reconcile those two points? | 14:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: What's new: Orphan: Orphan designation: Human IgG1 monoclonal antibody against sortilin, Treatment of frontotemporal dementia, 15/10/2021, Positive → https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/orphan-designations/eu-3-21-2498 | 14:22 |
| Tuvix | The death rate is not something that needs "reconciling." That is an official count of dead people in England from COVID. | 14:23 |
| Tuvix | "The [UK] government suggests that you continue to wear a face covering in crowded and enclosed spaces where you may come into contact with other people you do not normally meet." | 14:26 |
| xx | yeah that's not a restriction though, just just a suggestion | 14:26 |
| xx | let me rephrase the question then, how do you explain that politicians remove restrictions if deaths are going up? | 14:27 |
| Tuvix | Sure, but it's obviously not 'over' and the health department knows that. | 14:27 |
| dTal | restrictions lifted != pandemic over | 14:27 |
| Tuvix | Because that's a political decision, not one based in following the best science that would result in lived saved. | 14:27 |
| dTal | I would have thought that was obvious | 14:27 |
| dTal | in fact it's so obvious that I suspect anyone who misinterprets that as operating in bad faith | 14:28 |
| xx | if the disease is no worse than the seasonal sniffless for 99% of fully vaccinated people, then it becomes hard to still call it a pandemic | 14:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: Coronavirus: Far-right Dutch MEP ditches Geert Wilders’ party over its vaccination stance → https://www.politico.eu/article/far-right-dutch-mep-marcel-de-graaf-ditch-geert-wilders-party-coronavirus-vaccine-stance/ | 14:32 |
| Tuvix | That's not now it works, no. | 14:32 |
| xx | we've never called seasonal colds a pandemic, despite occuring in large numbers on multiple continents | 14:32 |
| Tuvix | COVID is not a seasonal cold or flu in terms of impact. It's orders of magnitude worse. | 14:33 |
| Tuvix | Flu and cold season does not fill up hospitals to the point they cannot do their jobs. COVID has been and is doing that. | 14:33 |
| xx | are hospitals getting filled to the brim with fully vaccinated people? | 14:33 |
| xx | or more importantly ICU units? | 14:34 |
| dTal | inb4 he says we should let the unvaxxed die | 14:34 |
| dTal | now would be a good time to remind everyone that xx openly believes *everyone* should die | 14:34 |
| xx | well gotta start somewhere | 14:35 |
| xx | and it is fully voluntary | 14:35 |
| dTal | your moral framework is confused and inconsistent | 14:36 |
| xx | I don't have a moral framework | 14:36 |
| dTal | correct | 14:36 |
| xx | but I do believe that stuff like euthanasia and suicide should be legal | 14:36 |
| dTal | you should announce that fact up front, when speaking to people, so as to avoid wasting their time | 14:36 |
| dTal | "should be" lol | 14:36 |
| dTal | you don't have a moral framework, you don't get to use the word "should" | 14:37 |
| xx | and knowingly choosing to not get vaccinated, despite being a member of at-risk group, is essentially that - suicide/euthanasia | 14:37 |
| xx | we should not be going against their wishes to die | 14:37 |
| peetaur | if unvaxxed should just be left to die when they get covid, also people with diabetes should too ... since diabetes is preventable too | 14:37 |
| xx | peetaur: type 2 is | 14:38 |
| dTal | peetaur: you seem to be attempting a reductio ad absurdem, that doesn't work on xx; he will fully agree with your absurd proposition | 14:38 |
| peetaur | dTal: haha | 14:38 |
| xx | well I don't see it as absurd | 14:38 |
| dTal | called it | 14:39 |
| peetaur | dTal: confirmed | 14:39 |
| xx | people called many revolutionary ideas absurd | 14:39 |
| xx | yet here we are, reaping the benefits of those ideas | 14:39 |
| dTal | "They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown" | 14:40 |
| xx | they laughed at me when I said coronavirus-19 is airborne, just like every other coronavirus before it | 14:40 |
| xx | they said "So you're disagreeing with what the WHO says, obviously you're a quack" | 14:41 |
| Tuvix | xx: reaping the "benefits" of people dying? That's very much against the channel policy here: https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/blob/master/COVID-19-chat.md | 14:41 |
| xx | ask any doctor/nurse in a hard-hit hospital if they'd prefer the load to be smaller | 14:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): China_Flu: Israel passes 2 million COVID-19 cases since pandemic began → https://old.reddit.com/r/China_Flu/comments/s8j2gw/israel_passes_2_million_covid19_cases_since/ | 14:42 |
| xx | it's hard work, and we're not doing enough to help them | 14:42 |
| xx | almost since the start of the pandemic I've been disgusted with how people treat medical professionals, as if they were subhuman slaves to the rest of the population, with no right to have time for a personal life | 14:43 |
| xx | ask this is a test to see if a bot reacts to it | 14:45 |
| xx | huh, there's a bot in here that reacts to any message that starts with 'ask' | 14:45 |
| undefined_bob | no | 14:47 |
| Tuvix | Medical staff cannot legally turn people away from hospitals, so that's a nonstarter. Nurses and those lower on the medical "chain of command" have been struggling with conditions, true, but the nursing shortage in hospitals was an issue many places before the pandemic as well. Many more have left compared to doctors or surgeons specifically. | 14:47 |
| Tuvix | It's not just the pandemic as the sole factor, though it's the most notable single issue that's resulted in current conditions where the need exceeds capacity and staff to handle it. | 14:48 |
| xx | I hear stories from time to time that in USA they do actually turn away patients, so it is not a nonstarter. | 14:49 |
| xx | just like some say we should be looking at the pandemic response in asian countries and compare it to european countries in order to see what they may be doing right, maybe we should be looking at USA too and learn from what they are doing | 14:51 |
| Tuvix | Non-essential patients are re-scheduled, not turned away. Hospitals sometimes go on what's called "divert" where they send patients to the next-nearest hospital (and so on) but that's also not turned away. | 14:52 |
| Tuvix | Hospitals in the US literally cram patients into hallways and over-stuff them into rooms far exceeding the capacity they're supposed to have, including in hallways or outside in tents (where weather permits) when things get really bad and transfer is not possible or practical. | 14:53 |
| Tuvix | The article requires a login, but the first photo should be all you need to see the point I made above: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/15/nyregion/brooklyn-omicron-cases.html | 14:55 |
| xx | "You’re going to have to be patient." ... "That's why I'm here" | 14:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Tulio de Oliveira (@Tuliodna): I agree that this is not the end of the pandemic. But the world is likely to enter a less severe phase of the pandemic, specially if they provide vaccines, PPEs and diagnostic to the whole world! twitter.com/angie_rasmusse… → https://twitter.com/Tuliodna/status/1484159238851252228 | 15:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Pharma: STAT+: Pharmalittle: 27 companies will make generic Merck Covid pills; drug-resistant infections are deadlier than HIV or malaria → https://www.statnews.com/pharmalot/2022/01/20/covid19-merck-patents-antibiotic-resistance-hiv-vaccine/ | 15:32 |
| DefiantN | The unvaxed could be re-scheduled, not turned away. There are people dying waiting for treatment for other conditions because of being re-scheduled to keep capacity open for covid | 15:42 |
| Tuvix | The ones re-scheduled are for non-critical care. The excess deaths that are due to the stress aren't (with very, very few exceptions) not the ones re-scheduled, but the ones who may die due to incrased EMS response time to an emergency or delay in getting seen at the ER. | 15:44 |
| DefiantN | Well I question the definition of non-critical care use where I am. Cardiac surgery is being delayed. | 15:48 |
| Tuvix | There are certainly some types of elective heart surgery procedures, although it's crucial to ensure that pushing it off is unlikely to cause negative outcomes doing that of course. | 15:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: Human medicine assessment reports: (news): Human medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): Comirnaty, Tozinameran,COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine (nucleoside modified), COVID-19 virus infection, Date of authorisation: 21/12/2020, Revision: 19, Status: Authorised → https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/EPAR/comirnaty | 15:53 |
| DefiantN | But you're talking about the US and I'm in Canada where people were already waiting for healthcare. Now we're waiting longer. I'm sure it's affecting outcomes because they don't always know what's critical without seeing a specialist and running any tests. Most blood collection in my province has been on hold for a month. | 16:01 |
| Tuvix | Again, that will have an impact, and in aggregate is contributing to excess deaths, but it's still elective procedures. Actual hospitals can run tests on patients whose immediate care depends on the results, but when resources are limited, things that "can be" pushed back are. And tragically, a small portion of those will indeed have negative outcomes, but fewer will than ignoring those who will | 16:04 |
| Tuvix | absolutely die if nothing is done. | 16:04 |
| Tuvix | That's the basis of triage, yet it's also true that an overburdened healthcare system results in more deaths which could have otherwise been avoided. | 16:05 |
| Tuvix | I really hope this is just some catching up from this Monday's MLK holiday, but JHU's commulative cases reporting 3.8k deaths over the past day: https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/cumulative-cases | 16:13 |
| Tuvix | 7-day average according to their daily data-in-motion briefing video is 1768, so that's a huge one-day jump. | 16:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: Human medicine assessment reports: (news): Human medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): COVID-19 Vaccine Janssen, COVID-19 vaccine (Ad26.COV2-S [recombinant]), COVID-19 virus infection, Date of authorisation: 11/03/2021, Revision: 16, Status: Authorised → https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/EPAR/covid-19-vaccine-janssen | 16:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Mindfulness Intervention for Post-Covid Symptoms → https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05199233 | 17:03 |
| lastshell | Looks like pandemic is over ? | 17:26 |
| lastshell | UK, and now Spain https://www.euronews.com/2022/01/18/spain-to-move-from-treating-covid-19-as-a-pandemic-to-an-endemic | 17:27 |
| Tuvix | That is a political statement, not a medically-driven one. Spain's rate of change of death incidence also appears to have accelerated in recent weeks: https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/cumulative-cases (country-specific chart a bit further down that page, set to 'deaths/100k pop' to get an idea. | 17:30 |
| lastshell | that is my fear UK and Spain is the begining | 17:31 |
| Tuvix | Calling it "no longer so deady" is very misleading currently since it may be in terms of case-fatility ratio, but that's only because so many are getting infected due to Omicron. The net result is more death, but it's very disonest to call that "less deadly" when it actually is also resulting in more total deaths. | 17:31 |
| lastshell | Tuvix more countries will follow there steps | 17:31 |
| lastshell | ergo the virus will mutate more | 17:31 |
| lastshell | because less restrictions | 17:31 |
| lastshell | but I could be wrong | 17:31 |
| Tuvix | That depends a lot on the how the virus progresses. | 17:32 |
| lastshell | I guess is to late to control | 17:32 |
| lastshell | let's hope the virus behave | 17:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from LitCovid: (news): Correction: Effects of the COVID-19 pandemic on patients with inflammatory joint diseases in Sweden: from infection severity to impact on care provision. → https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/research/coronavirus/publication/35042729 | 17:33 |
| Tuvix | Still, spain is doing a lot better in terms of vaccination, which is why their rise in deaths is less (by population incidence which we can compare between countries) than other places such as the US or UK. | 17:35 |
| Tuvix | Or at least that's a part of it. | 17:35 |
| xx | any prediction which country will follow spain and UK next? | 17:40 |
| lastshell | I can warranty will not be US | 17:41 |
| lastshell | probaly other european country | 17:41 |
| Tuvix | The US already has no effective rules at the national level, only "guidance" which is actually quite similar to the UK's "revised" recommendations. | 17:42 |
| Tuvix | You shouldn't do a lot of things we know to be bad for public health, but it's not longer prohibited in most of the UK as it hasn't been in the US for some time. Starting wtih the onset of Delta, the US has shown a notably accelerated curve compared to the other top-10 most impacted countries by total deaths. | 17:42 |
| lastshell | I still see wear masks signs I'm leaving in a red state | 17:43 |
| Tuvix | Sure, and I see customers in stores that "require masks" refusing to wear them, in a purple state and purple but technically slightly left-leaning county. | 17:43 |
| Tuvix | Enough people simply won't follow rules unless it's actually enforced that we're going to realistically see out of control community spread as long as the virus is technically able to continue doing it. | 17:44 |
| Tuvix | The poor clerks in these stores can't literally force customers to do that. What are they supposd to do? Call law enforcement each time it happens? Hire full time on-site security? It's just not practical. | 17:45 |
| xx | you know the spray bottles you use on cats? | 17:45 |
| Tuvix | And that would be considered assault. I do hope you're not suggesting that for use on customers in stores. | 17:46 |
| xx | oh I just remembered you're in UK where people have no rights and everything is an assault | 17:59 |
| xx | what a weird country | 18:00 |
| xx | in USA, you can pull out a gun on a customer if you tell them to leave and they refuse | 18:00 |
| xx | it's called trespassing and you can legally shoot them | 18:00 |
| Timvde | xx: Wait, you just called the UK weird and then immediately continue with thinking that's *normal*? o_o | 18:01 |
| xx | I think it's normal for person owning some property, or working for that person, to have more rights inside such property than others | 18:01 |
| Timvde | Pulling a gun on anyone *is not normal* | 18:01 |
| xx | I like the castle doctrine, and if I say wear a mask in my shop or leave, then that's gonna be the rule inside that shop | 18:03 |
| Timvde | I like being in a country where most people just wear a mask when it's mandatory without making a scene :) | 18:04 |
| Timvde | And otherwise, you call security and they will help the customer out with as little violence as possible. | 18:04 |
| xx | I'd say use a bit more violence so that the customer remembers it and doesn't come back | 18:05 |
| Timvde | And *definitely* without a gun, because nothing in the entire situation calls for threatening people with their life | 18:05 |
| xx | uh, those customers threaten the lives of others by not having a mask on, so... | 18:05 |
| xx | I view not wearing a mask around others the same as pointing a loaded gun at others. You don't know if they are infected and you don't know if they'll shoot. | 18:06 |
| xx | hence the response towards not letting such people into shops, or demanding them to immediately leave, and if they refuse then escalate | 18:07 |
| Timvde | Escalate, sure. But not all the way to guns. | 18:08 |
| Timvde | Proportionality is a thing | 18:08 |
| Timvde | And many americans don't seem to understand that pulling a gun is waaaaayyy out of proportion for anything they encounter in their daily lives | 18:08 |
| xx | covid is a lethal disease, hence I can see it leading towards a lethal response | 18:08 |
| xx | sure, if it wasn't a lethal disease, then a lethal response might not be warranted | 18:09 |
| lastshell | xx https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States "normal" | 18:09 |
| Timvde | I'm not usually minimizing the risk of COVID, but seriously, it's not the same | 18:10 |
| Timvde | But the topic of this channel is not gun control and I'm pretty sure we're too far apart to come to an agreement, so I'm gonna step out | 18:10 |
| xx | Timvde: we literally have better medicines to treat/manage HIV/AIDS than covid | 18:10 |
| xx | so yes, I do view covid as a serious disease | 18:11 |
| Timvde | It is. But if *any* situation can be resolved by not using a gun, you should not use a gun. Period. And that's really the last thing I'm saying about it. | 18:13 |
| peetaur | take guns away from police in USA so you're further towards your goal (or instead be more careful with broad generalizations) | 18:20 |
| xx | taking guns away from police is the same as removing PPE from doctors when dealing with covid patients | 18:22 |
| xx | other diseases too. Having PPE protects the doctor, so that the doctor can help other patients. | 18:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from LitCovid: (news): Smoking Prevalence during the COVID-19 Pandemic in the United States. → https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/research/coronavirus/publication/35044900 | 18:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Immunogenicity of an Inactivated COVID-19 Vaccine → https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05198336 | 18:41 |
| LjL | I've been indirectly highlighted so now I feel the duty of fueling the fire that is clearly already burning: as I've always said politics is inextricable from covid so this channel doesn't disallow political discussion per se, but if only has very tangentially to do with covid such as "let's talk about gun violence and whether the US has the right approach", I think that *might* not be appropriate even if a parallel with PPE or whatever is drawn | 18:47 |
| xx | LjL: what's the policy on bots in here? There's a weird bot in here that sends you a message any time you start a line with 'ask' | 18:50 |
| xx | ask this is a test | 18:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Impact of Vaccination in Acute COVID-19 → https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05198453 | 18:51 |
| LjL | ask test | 18:51 |
| LjL | spacecraft: please disable that | 18:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from Contagion Live: Why People With COVID-19 Symptoms Aren’t Getting Tested: Many people who self-report as symptomatic for COVID-19 neglect to get tested, largely citing not knowing where to go for a test as the reason. → https://www.contagionlive.com/view/why-people-with-covid-19-symptoms-aren-t-getting-tested | 19:10 |
| LjL | i don't know if this is specific to COVID-related stuff, but lately i'm quite annoyed at how Wikipedia seems to have been highly demoted from google results | 19:22 |
| ublx | oh no. wikipedia must have decimated its ad spend with google | 19:24 |
| LjL | ublx, which it never had...? granted, maybe it was a bit of a small miracle that it used to be at the top of google in the first place | 19:29 |
| LjL | it's probably "just" COVID-specific demotion though | 19:30 |
| LjL | i google "coronavirus" and things like that and it's nowhere to be found on the first page | 19:30 |
| LjL | i google "almond" and sure enough it's the first hit | 19:30 |
| ublx | hm. well i was just being silly | 19:31 |
| ublx | i've felt that google search results enworsening has been accelerating for a while | 19:31 |
| LjL | silliness is the first step to truth | 19:31 |
| LjL | i've felt that but it's been largely from dubious choices like their automatic "synonym" replacement | 19:32 |
| LjL | like i search for "impossible" and it finds "possible" | 19:32 |
| LjL | obviously not a synonym, but they think it's a related-enough keyword | 19:32 |
| LjL | (not *that* particular one, probably, just things like it) | 19:32 |
| LjL | and also i make multiword searches where i definitely want all of those words to appear, but it prioritizes results where the most important word does not. then i have to "quote" it, fine, that *sort of* works, but it's not even great | 19:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Opinion: To get to a ‘new normal,’ public health must focus on all respiratory viruses: By investing in a broad, strategic, and coordinated public health response to all respiratory viruses, the U.S. has an opportunity to return to a "new normal" with [... want %more?] → https://www.statnews.com/2022/01/20/new-normal-public-health-must-focus-on-all-respiratory-viruses/ | 19:40 |
| de-facto | oh people start to think about it? | 19:48 |
| LjL | de-facto, i'm not sure that's a good thing. didn't read the article, but what Brainstorm posted reminds me of another article i read previously where it seemed to say that the US is considering *stopping counting COVID deaths* as separate, and count them "as part of all respiratory illnesses". i see similar trends in other countries (as was mentioned, Spain, UK...) | 19:49 |
| LjL | bad intentions may be hidden behind ostensible good intentions | 19:50 |
| LjL | as someone commenting on the article i remember pointed out... sometimes a policy document (this was something from government advisors iirc) can say some sensible things, like "we should pay attention to all respiratory viruses and air circulation etc", together with some debatable things like "we shouldn't count COVID deaths separately, also the pandemic is over" | 19:51 |
| LjL | and it's easy for actual policymakers to cherrypick (maybe because that's the whole intent) the latter, and say "yeah, in due time, we'll do the former too" and then it never happens | 19:51 |
| LjL | stopping counting deaths is something you can do in one day; changing air circulation system countrywide is something you can always say you're doing, but slowly, and then after decades, nothing's changed | 19:52 |
| LjL | (much like, say, Italy with earthquake proofing buildings) | 19:52 |
| Tuvix | Science requires constant evaluation; politics only requires a speech that is well-received | 19:52 |
| Tuvix | Could be that air system was fine when installed but a change in filters changed its effectiveness. Do we evaluate that? Or do we just call it successful because it once reported some metrics that we thought were all that mattered at the time? How do we know the rest of the system is working, or that assumptions about airflow and preventing mixing between HVAC regions is still operating as intended? | 19:54 |
| Tuvix | Science is hard. Declaring success is easy if you limit what you require for that success. | 19:54 |
| LjL | yeah i don't remember what the keywords would be to find the document i have in mind again, i might have spotted it from Twitter... as always, i only realize something may have been important enough to save in hindsight. but let me see if logs help | 19:54 |
| LjL | or Twitter likes, which i'm sort of using as bookmarks when i remember | 19:55 |
| LjL | nope, not liked | 19:57 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV: S’pore PR gets infected with Omicron in December after Delta plus infection last May → https://old.reddit.com/r/CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV/comments/s8q4n1/spore_pr_gets_infected_with_omicron_in_december/ | 19:59 |
| LjL | de-facto, Tuvix: i found it, it was https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2787944 and https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/covid-19-faqs-hospitals-hospital-laboratory-acute-care-facility-data-reporting.pdf (the latter very long so i remember i didn't actually read it, but i checked out a few tweets about them; they were posted by someone in here) | 20:08 |
| LjL | the jamanetwork article is apparently by government advisers or similar, anyway | 20:08 |
| LjL | and it contains things like this | 20:08 |
| LjL | "Thus, policy makers should retire previous public health categorizations, including deaths from pneumonia and influenza or pneumonia, influenza, and COVID-19, and focus on a new category: the aggregate risk of all respiratory virus infections." | 20:08 |
| LjL | "The “new normal” requires recognizing that SARS-CoV-2 is but one of several circulating respiratory viruses that include influenza, respiratory syncytial virus (RSV), and more. COVID-19 must now be considered among the risks posed by all respiratory viral illnesses combined. Many of the measures to reduce transmission of SARS-CoV-2 (eg, ventilation) will also reduce transmission of other respiratory viruses." | 20:09 |
| LjL | this is true, right? but when it sets the stage for stopping counting deaths in a way that lets the public see, on a daily basis, how many people are dying of COVID... then i am wary | 20:09 |
| de-facto | well how much of the current hospitalization load emerges from SARS-CoV-2 infection compared to other respiratory diseases? | 20:12 |
| LjL | a lot, given the excess deaths, probably? | 20:12 |
| de-facto | well then it needs to be addressed as such, a new situation | 20:13 |
| de-facto | ok maybe the transmission paths are similar and a generic concept addressing control of transmission paths (for any respiratory disease) should get implemented, but SARS-CoV-2 is MUCH more contagious than the other endemic respiratory diseases | 20:15 |
| de-facto | hence the big peak in infections and hospitalizations | 20:15 |
| summonner | Didn't the CDC director admit that 75% of "35,000 of covid" were due to 4 or more comorbidities? Wasn't this on MS-CNBC? I saw it | 20:16 |
| summonner | she admitted only 35,000 people had actually died from covid, not this "with covid" of 800,000 number | 20:16 |
| de-facto | does it matter? | 20:16 |
| summonner | truth does | 20:16 |
| de-facto | without SARS-CoV-2 in circulation those would not have died, as they did not show up as excess mortality | 20:17 |
| de-facto | if you call them as "with" or "from" COVID does not matter in my opinion if they are *additional* deaths to normal mortality rates (excess) | 20:17 |
| LjL | summonner, "admitting" is such a loaded word, and then you also add "due to". no, there WERE 4 or more comorbidities (if what you reported is accurate). comorbidities don't automatically tell you that it was that, and not COVID. that's why they are called "co"-"morbitities". they are health issues that CO-occurred. | 20:18 |
| Tuvix | Excess deaths clearly is caused by the pandemic, and the majority of them are directly related to complications of the SARS-CoV2 virus infection that casues COVID. | 20:18 |
| Tuvix | Thus the deaths are NOT in fact "due to" the comorbidities, but due to COVID. That's similar to how cancer may be made worse by smoking, but smoking was not the cause of someone who died of a tumor that attacked their heart; they died of cancer, not cigarettes. | 20:19 |
| summonner | Well, never fear, cos I don't believe this was the only organism they were performing gain of function on | 20:19 |
| summonner | the payments were much to high for that | 20:19 |
| summonner | so, maybe next year there'll be another | 20:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: A National Strategy for the “New Normal” of Life With COVID: Type Journal Article Author Ezekiel J. Emanuel Author Michael Osterholm Author Celine R. Gounder URL https://doi.org/10.1001/jama.2021.24282 Volume 327 Issue 3 Pages 211-212 Publication JAMA ISSN 0098-7484 Date January [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/8XHUQ4QJ | 20:19 |
| LjL | summonner, are you going to keep spouting vague random nonsense? | 20:20 |
| summonner | the repeating of the CDC director's words? | 20:21 |
| summonner | or my feeling that we're still to see more from the emails and DARPA leaks? | 20:21 |
| summonner | it's still on-topic | 20:21 |
| summonner | If I'm still talking about my feelings, I would have thought people would be happy to be rolling back the passport mandates and mask mandates? Businesses can start getting back to normal and people can start getting back to work, and back to spending, and living a normal life, yeah? That doesn't make people excited? | 20:23 |
| LjL | summonner, you are just not going to make vague statements like "<summonner> Well, never fear, cos I don't believe this was the only organism they were performing gain of function on" and all that without clearly stating what you're talking about and providing references. extraordinary claims, etc. i *am* vaguely familiar with some of the alleged GOF research, and i may *guess* what you're talking about, but to most people here, that's just FUD | 20:25 |
| LjL | FUD is not what we want here | 20:26 |
| Tuvix | Over 1700 deaths per average from COVID? And while you can argue all you want about how we classify the numbers exactly, hospitals that are so full they have to divert patients away, airlift them dozens of miles away. What you propose would stress the hospital systems more in these places which cannot take more stress now. | 20:26 |
| LjL | there's enough justified fear without fueling more without stating the basis | 20:26 |
| Tuvix | So, no, I'm not "excited" to break our helathcare system even worse than it is now. | 20:26 |
| Tuvix | Many others are not either, including those who work in these industries, or who are seeing patients with critical but not currently life-threatening conditions from getting the care they need. That's the real problem currently. | 20:27 |
| LjL | i'm also not happy about rolling back anything, although for now there's also the fact that nothing is being rolled back here, because i still think Omicron is a large threat even though it's a kind of different threat from what we had before. one of the things i'd really like to wait and see is studies on Long COVID with Omicron, which will take some natural time | 20:29 |
| summonner | I hear what you're saying, there are many pieces to any system, and for many many years the US system of healthcare is lacking behind many other countries. I could find a stat if anyone's interested | 20:29 |
| Tuvix | This is not a problem specific to the US. | 20:29 |
| summonner | but I think what happened in the US is similar to what we saw in Italy at the start of the outbreak | 20:29 |
| Tuvix | Opening up, as you propose, would break the system worse. No, those of us who pay attention are not excited for that. | 20:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV: EMA encourages COVID-19 vaccine developers to target several variants → https://old.reddit.com/r/CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV/comments/s8qtvs/ema_encourages_covid19_vaccine_developers_to/ | 20:30 |
| Tuvix | Granted there are effectively no rules at all, so there's really nothing to "open" besides changing guidance to for example stay home if you're sick. | 20:30 |
| LjL | Tuvix, isn't it mindblowing that two years into a pandemic, we're actually still debating (kinda) whether you should stay home when you're sick? | 20:31 |
| Tuvix | A few places have limited rules, but the US has virtually no enforced requirements, so I'm unlcear, specifically, what you're proposing. I don't need or want "stats" but a more clearly stated position. So far you've been, seemingly intentional, nonsense. | 20:31 |
| summonner | But hospitals/healthcare are never kept at a "pandemic" level, it's always a balance between cost and use | 20:31 |
| Tuvix | So, let me be very clear: you're proposing we take no protection what-so-ever because people would just love to have wild parties and go to work sick because hospitals will, presumably sometime in the future, be less unable to care for the sick? That is beyond unethical. | 20:32 |
| summonner | Well, if you're sick, western culture is you stay home in bed. Japanese culture is you show up unless you're at the hospital. I couldn't comment on other cultures | 20:32 |
| summonner | People always make judgments about cost/benefit | 20:33 |
| summonner | I never said those specific words Tuvix | 20:34 |
| Tuvix | You implied it and you know full well what I'm referring to. | 20:34 |
| summonner | actually no I wasn't implying it, but I can see how you could take it that way if you were thinking from that perspective | 20:35 |
| Tuvix | Actually, that's almost excactly what you said, you just rambled on quite a bit more about it. "I would have thought people would be happy [with no rules …] back to normal […] That doesn't make people excited?" | 20:36 |
| summonner | you're not wanting to go back to a normal life? | 20:36 |
| summonner | you want to stay locked-down forever? | 20:36 |
| summonner | You can if you want, you can be a Hikkamori | 20:36 |
| Tuvix | We're not locked down, and I already explained that there are in fact virtually no requirements of any lesser nature either. | 20:36 |
| LjL | wtf is a hikkamori | 20:37 |
| Tuvix | Now who is inventing claims? You appear to be here to troll, so I'll let other people engage with you. | 20:37 |
| summonner | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori | 20:37 |
| LjL | i do know what a hikikomori is | 20:37 |
| LjL | i wouldn't know if you can comment on japanese culture when you spell hikikomori as hikkamori | 20:38 |
| summonner | I'm not the best at spel1ing | 20:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): Covid2019: COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: Last Updated 19 January 2022. → https://old.reddit.com/r/Covid2019/comments/s8r2kx/covid19_vaccine_tracker_last_updated_19_january/ | 20:39 |
| summonner | I'm not trolling... I'm wanting to know if people are looking forward to getting back to normal | 20:40 |
| LjL | i'm looking forward to getting back to normal with "normal" meaning i don't have to worry about COVID in most practical ways | 20:41 |
| LjL | as long as COVID is still giving us 200k cases a day and increasing deaths, "normal" is not what it's goign to be | 20:41 |
| trbp | 200k per day whole world? | 20:45 |
| LjL | no, just talking about my country | 20:45 |
| trbp | hm which one? | 20:45 |
| LjL | Italy | 20:45 |
| trbp | and how many people you got all in all? | 20:45 |
| LjL | %cases italy | 20:45 |
| trbp | 60mio? | 20:45 |
| LjL | yes | 20:45 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: Italy has had 8.2 million confirmed cases (13.5% of all people) and 140188 deaths (1.7% of cases; 1 in 430 people) as of a day ago. 152.5 million tests were done (5.3% positive). 48.5 million were vaccinated (80.6%). See https://www.epicentro.iss.it/en/coronavirus/sars-cov-2-dashboard or https://lab24.ilsole24ore.com/coronavirus/en/ | 20:45 |
| trbp | are those vax numbers one, twice, thrice or quad vax? | 20:46 |
| LjL | i believe it's with any amount of doses, but i'd have to double-check. it's data as shown on covidly.com | 20:47 |
| LjL | and nobody has "quad vax" in italy | 20:47 |
| trbp | not like with that what was it? indian guy? | 20:48 |
| trbp | max vax for life? ;) | 20:48 |
| LjL | eh? | 20:48 |
| trbp | https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-59905339 | 20:48 |
| LjL | oh, yeah, i remember | 20:51 |
| LjL | i do believe he was arrested and stuff though, apart from the folklore | 20:51 |
| trbp | why should he be get arrested? | 20:52 |
| LjL | because he got those shots illegally by either forging his ID or otherwise falsifying official stuff to get more than he was entitled to? | 20:53 |
| LjL | you can't just go to the restaurant and order a Covishield | 20:54 |
| Tuvix | Not unless there's a vaccination clinic on your way in you fill out paperwork for and stop by (if they had an opening for you) after your dinner. After filling out your paperwork correctly of course. | 20:56 |
| Tuvix | On all the forms here (2 different clinics across my 3 doses) they each had a signature required where I was attesting the information supplied was correct to the best of my knowledge. | 20:57 |
| sdfgsdfg | never had such a neverending conjunctivitis ever - in my life | 21:09 |
| sdfgsdfg | this is the third time it's happening since july last year | 21:09 |
| sdfgsdfg | so weird | 21:09 |
| sdfgsdfg | actually I never had viral conjunctivitis | 21:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: France to lift COVID-19 restrictions in February: Vaccinated French people will soon be allowed to go to football stadiums and nightclubs. → https://www.politico.eu/article/france-to-lift-covid-19-restrictions-in-february/ | 21:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): CoronavirusEU: Europe considers new COVID-19 strategy: accepting the virus → https://old.reddit.com/r/CoronavirusEU/comments/s8rjba/europe_considers_new_covid19_strategy_accepting/ | 21:20 |
| de-facto | :/ | 21:20 |
| dan01 | Why do some people feat the vaccines? | 21:44 |
| dan01 | It looks to as vaccination was perfectly ordinary up until this pandemic, now suddenly it's a controversy | 21:45 |
| sdfgsdfg | controversy ? where is it a controversy | 21:45 |
| sdfgsdfg | no such thing | 21:45 |
| Arsanerit | There were antivaxxers before this pandemic. | 21:46 |
| `St0ner | the controversy was mostly about how quick the vaccines were developed | 21:46 |
| `St0ner | people are vaccine-hesitant based on the speed of development and american designations for authorizations of use, even though these designations didnt apply in any other country | 21:47 |
| sdfgsdfg | or maybe the controversy is about the consecutive doses that don't even work well enough, or doesn't fit into the picture of ever changing variants | 21:47 |
| Arsanerit | the controversy predates knowledge of that, so I don't think that's it | 21:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from Virological.org: Latest posts: @darrenpmartin Darren Martin: Selection analysis identifies significant mutational changes in Omicron that are likely to influence both [... want %more?] → https://virological.org/t/selection-analysis-identifies-significant-mutational-changes-in-omicron-that-are-likely-to-influence-both-antibody-neutralization-and-spike-function-part-1-of-2/771/2 | 21:49 |
| Tuvix | sdfgsdfg: Order of magnitude improvement against severe outcomes are working very well. You've been told this many times, and given lots of data to reference. The recommended dosing remains highly protective against severe outcomes including hospitalization and death. I know full well you've been around when this link has been shared, but I'll share it with you again to counter this claim you seem to | 21:52 |
| Tuvix | relish bringing up: | 21:52 |
| Tuvix | sdfgsdfg: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination | 21:52 |
| sdfgsdfg | no Tuvix | 21:53 |
| Tuvix | Yes sdfgsdfg | 21:53 |
| sdfgsdfg | it doesn't work well enough and it's a fact | 21:53 |
| sdfgsdfg | "well enough" is a careful wording | 21:53 |
| `St0ner | isnt that what they call on wikipedia "weasel wording"? | 21:53 |
| Tuvix | It remains around 90% effective at preventing death. This is its primary goal, and there's no controversy that vaccination reduces death outcomes significantly. | 21:53 |
| `St0ner | less weasel words, more data | 21:54 |
| * Tuvix was sure to link data in the counter-claim. And varient-specific vaccines are in fact in development, and were back during alpha/beta as well. Although in that latter case, they were determined not to be significantly better. | 21:56 | |
| Tuvix | It remains a fact, backed by the data I just linked, plus hundreds of other data publicly available, the vaccine effectiveness against severe hospitalizaiton and death remains high, though slightly less than against earlier varients. You don't get rid of your car because it has become 5 or 10% less fuel efficient, and you wouldn't discard what remains to be the single best tool to fight severe outcomes | 21:58 |
| Tuvix | including death just because there is not yet a better alternative. | 21:58 |
| sdfgsdfg | sure, I couldn't help but agree with all your points | 21:59 |
| Tuvix | Here's just one of many examples of discussion of VE against Omicron: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1045619/Technical-Briefing-31-Dec-2021-Omicron_severity_update.pdf | 21:59 |
| sdfgsdfg | you're right | 21:59 |
| Tuvix | Is it "less" effective? Sure, but it's *not* a controversy in the *medical* community that vaccines is the single best thing one can do to avoid bad outcomes. Dying, chief among them. | 21:59 |
| Tuvix | Arguing that this is some big controversy though seems intent on casting a reduced VE when compared to the Wuhan-hu original strain as some kind of example or a "gotcha" that the vaccines are somehow not doing their job. They remain doing their job, while we work to tweak them to do an even better job in the face of changing varients. | 22:00 |
| Tuvix | I find your original statement of controversy, specifically in the medical community, to be very out of touch with the latest medical science. | 22:01 |
| sdfgsdfg | I think you are a vaccine fanatic | 22:01 |
| sdfgsdfg | and I think it's as obnoxious as antivaxxers | 22:01 |
| sdfgsdfg | It doesn't make sense to beat up on any attempt to question things, ratios, effects over time, changes over time | 22:02 |
| Tuvix | That's not a rebuttal based in any science. I've been kind enough to take the time to link you to 2 sources of information. | 22:02 |
| sdfgsdfg | we will question everything - I'm sorry | 22:02 |
| `St0ner | lol. is it an issue to be a fanatic of amazing and rapid technological advances that benefit the entire world population? | 22:02 |
| `St0ner | "question everything" is exactly what extreme right-wingers always say. it's like their calling sign | 22:03 |
| Tuvix | He's just upset because he is refusing to get vaccinated and can't work at some places. Despite being aware of this life-saving vaccine, he would rather cast doubt on it in a public forum. | 22:03 |
| Tuvix | Then when presented with multiple scientific documents, he has to fall back on insults to make his point; | 22:04 |
| sdfgsdfg | doubt is beneficial in long term | 22:04 |
| sdfgsdfg | you would find out about it soon enough I hope | 22:04 |
| `St0ner | many of the people that "question everything" should also question why they didnt go to university and learn research methods and science | 22:04 |
| sdfgsdfg | 5% of myocarditis cases translate to death over a lifetime | 22:04 |
| `St0ner | hopefully they soon find out about the merits of post-secondary education in the fields of science, math, engineering, as these fields teach actual and real critical thinking, not this social media "question everything" mentality | 22:04 |
| sdfgsdfg | you know nothing | 22:05 |
| Tuvix | sdfgsdfg: That's again, not any value statement or counter-argumnent. Back your claim up with some science, referencen to studies, or something of scientific substance, which is what this channel is for. _What_ will I be "finding out about [soon enough]" | 22:05 |
| Tuvix | sdfgsdfg: I know quite a lot, and have linked you to enormous troves of resources on this topic. You continue to lob insults; is your position so weak this is all you can do? | 22:05 |
| sdfgsdfg | it's backed up that myocarditis cases translate to further hospitalizations and death in long term | 22:05 |
| sdfgsdfg | I can come up with a list of academic papers if you respect that | 22:05 |
| Tuvix | Incorrect; the risk of myocarditis is higher form catching COVID than from the vaccine. | 22:05 |
| sdfgsdfg | I didn't say it was lower with the disease than the vaccine | 22:06 |
| Tuvix | Vaccination literally _prevents_ myocarditis on the whole. | 22:06 |
| sdfgsdfg | ?? | 22:06 |
| `St0ner | the risk of myocarditis is MUCH MUCH higher from catching COVID than from any vaccine. this can easily be googled. joe rogan famously failed to do so before an interview he hosted | 22:06 |
| Tuvix | This was a huge part of the FDAs discussion for the EUA for 5 to 11 year olds, and the conclusion taking even *very* conservative review of the data. | 22:06 |
| `St0ner | so he did it during his interview, and was proven wrong like a fool | 22:07 |
| `St0ner | people like rogan spouting bullshit all the time confuses people uneducated in critical thinking | 22:07 |
| sdfgsdfg | no the risk of myocarditis is increased by up to 3 to 18 times higher with 30 year olds when you receive your next moderna boosters - which is way higher than the disease | 22:07 |
| sdfgsdfg | it changes with different vaccine types | 22:07 |
| Tuvix | That is to say, that the FDA assumemd near worst-case situations for both the vaccine and the best-case for COVID spread, and *still* concluded that heart inflamation in youth in particular was vastly improved with Pfizer doses in the EUA. | 22:07 |
| sdfgsdfg | again, from a peer reviewed paper that LjL posted | 22:07 |
| Tuvix | sdfgsdfg: Yes, obviously. This is why Moderna is *NOT* authorized for the under-18's. | 22:08 |
| sdfgsdfg | well you start agreeing with my points now | 22:08 |
| sdfgsdfg | once a fanatic.... | 22:08 |
| sdfgsdfg | lol - I have to go to work bye | 22:08 |
| Tuvix | We don't give Moderna to under 18's. If your point is that could have unwanted interacitons with youth, yes, it could. So could drinking 1L of vodka I have on my shelf, but I won't be doing that either. | 22:09 |
| Tuvix | We don't approve drugs until they've been studied, and you have not explained how vaccines are worse than not taking them when we consider the overall impact on death, severe hospitalizations, and lasting effects of COVID. So far I've only been insulted a half-dozen times. | 22:10 |
| Tuvix | `St0ner: To follow up on your point so it's not missed (and as I find it quite fascinating) did you see enough of that segment where he realized his mistake on the air, and then claimed he hadn't seen any of that information? The FDA study I referenced above was published back in October! | 22:12 |
| Tuvix | Naturally, it's easy not to see scientific information if you're both not in the field and not looking for it. | 22:12 |
| `St0ner | i strongly dislike joe rogan based off his previous interviews (bob lazar episode, the one and only joe rogan i ever watched/listened). yeah i think i saw that clip. rogan is a shitty interviewer and fails to do his research and ask his guests the hardhitting questions | 22:13 |
| minth_ | he's an entertainer | 22:14 |
| Tuvix | My point was that those spewing such misinformation, as we saw here above with the heart concerns, stop making reasonable arguments when presented with facts and fall back on claims that cannot be demonstrated. | 22:14 |
| `St0ner | also, your first mistake might be taking comments/questions as insults on irc. not everyone is trying to insult you, and even if they are, just don't let them get to you | 22:14 |
| Tuvix | Being called a fanatic is not a question. | 22:15 |
| minth_ | I find him entertaining | 22:15 |
| `St0ner | like i said above, is it even an insult to be a fanatic of rapidly developed health sciences technology that literally saves lives globally? | 22:15 |
| Tuvix | Being told that I'll [soon find out] how wrong I am about vaccines offering significant protection against death is also not a question. | 22:15 |
| `St0ner | i didnt get my third shot yet (and probably wont at this rate), but i guess you could call me a fanatic about getting the first 2 shots, i was on that shit the second they released it | 22:16 |
| dTal | you should get your third shot if you can | 22:16 |
| `St0ner | we have issues with supply and bookings in my jurisdiction | 22:16 |
| dTal | bummer | 22:16 |
| `St0ner | and i'm in an extremely low risk category | 22:16 |
| `St0ner | i'd rather someone who needs it gets it | 22:17 |
| Tuvix | The protection does go up with a 3rd dose, but if you'd literally be taking it away from another individual, that does change the calculus a bit. | 22:17 |
| dTal | ah, mad respect in that case | 22:17 |
| Tuvix | Is your region diong anything to prioritize the most in-need? | 22:17 |
| `St0ner | yes, it is prioritized | 22:18 |
| Tuvix | It seems to me that if this is a regional problem health authorities should be doing all they can to ensure the best use of a limited resource, especially for people who may just try as hard as they can to get a dose even if someone else may depend more on it to survive. | 22:18 |
| `St0ner | yeah i think the prioritization could have been done a little better | 22:18 |
| `St0ner | other people like myself who are low-risk, work from home, etc should have been advised to wait a bit, instead of contributing to the massive demand on the limited distribution capabilities of the public health unit | 22:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from Virological.org: Latest topics: SARS-CoV-2 lineage assignment is more stable with UShER: Adriano de Bernardi Schneider 1,2, ,* , Michelle Su 3, ,Angie Hinrichs 1,2 , Jade Wang 3 , Helly Amin 3 , John Bell 4 , Debra A. Wadford 4 , Áine O’Toole 5 , Emily Scher 5 , Marc D. Perry [... want %more?] → https://virological.org/t/sars-cov-2-lineage-assignment-is-more-stable-with-usher/781 | 22:20 |
| Tuvix | Ah, okay, so part of the risk balance is perhaps to allow your younger age-group with no major health conditions to get a boost if they were to for example work in a higher-risk setting interacting with more people; that's more nuanced, but I'd imagine harder to manage. | 22:23 |
| Tuvix | Back when there was high demand for 1st doses here I probably could have tried to qualify for 1 group earlier than I was really in honestly, but technically I probably had a claim to it if I wanted to make an issue of it. Like you, I realized that even if I could technically qualify, it would be socially better to wait the short weeks until the general public was allowed to sign up. | 22:24 |
| Tuvix | My job at the time fell into a technically "essential" category, even though 98% of the days I worked remotely from home, and the rare days I had to go in I was almost always alone in an office. | 22:25 |
| Tuvix | It would have, IMO, been improper of me to try and jump the line with people who may work in positions with far more human interaction. | 22:26 |
| Klinda | tomorrow I have the test | 22:26 |
| Klinda | let's see if I am postiive or not | 22:26 |
| Tuvix | Hopefully you get the all-clear, though Omicron is very pervasive everywhere right now. | 22:28 |
| de-facto | even if you get all clear if you have symptoms be careful and distance | 22:34 |
| de-facto | tests are good but not 100% accurate all the time | 22:34 |
| de-facto | e.g. depending on how long a contamination could replicate, how well the sample was taken, the tests sensitivity and so on results may be falsely negative | 22:35 |
| `St0ner | mostly the rapid tests, as they show falsely negative | 22:36 |
| minth_ | people become infectious before they develop symptoms or test positive | 22:36 |
| de-facto | most tests are highly specific though, so false positives are quite unlikely, at least with PCR etc | 22:36 |
| de-facto | yeah | 22:36 |
| de-facto | what i wanted to say is that a negative test result is no guarantee for not being infectious | 22:37 |
| de-facto | it only lowers the probability | 22:37 |
| `St0ner | my local health authorities have been saying for weeks that if you have any cold/flu symptons, assume you have omicron. i think that's a pretty good rule | 22:37 |
| Tuvix | Better than local guidance around here, for sure. That's obviously a safer approach that limits possible spread. | 22:38 |
| de-facto | well yeah, in addition to that there also are asymptomatic shedding carriers, but with symptoms its pretty clear there must be something causing the symptoms | 22:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from University of Washington: NEJM paper is compendium on rapid tests for COVID-19: A clinical practice article in the New England Journal of Medicine distills available data and clinical experience into a compendium about rapid diagnostic tests for SARS-CoV-2, the virus [... want %more?] → https://globalhealth.washington.edu/news/2022/01/20/nejm-paper-compendium-rapid-tests-covid-19-0 | 22:40 |
| Tuvix | Sure, and even if not COVID, sharing a cold still is best avoided if possible too. | 22:46 |
| de-facto | i bet the very last majority of people with cold like symptoms right now are SARS-CoV-2 infected | 22:49 |
| de-facto | just because Omicron is so much more contagious than the seasonal respiratory diseases and people do try to avoid both | 22:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: Wastewater suggests Omicron is receding in US cities: Stephanie Soucheray | News Reporter | CIDRAP News Jan 20, 2022 New York, Boston, Denver, the Twin Cities, and San Diego have all likely peaked, according to sampling. → https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/01/wastewater-suggests-omicron-receding-us-cities | 22:50 |
| dTal | I wish we understood thiis peaking mechanism | 22:50 |
| dTal | it seems like THE question, but nobody in pop culture seems to care | 22:51 |
| de-facto | well it must be due to drop in reproduction number specific to those that otherwise would continue the peak, e.g. high contact cohorts | 22:52 |
| de-facto | with reproduction = contact_rate * transmissibility * shedding_duration it can be a combination of any of those factors changing in side those specific cohorts | 22:53 |
| de-facto | contact_rate is pretty obvious, people see the peak and reduce their contacts due to rules or sanity | 22:54 |
| dTal | I don't think that explains it | 22:54 |
| de-facto | shedding_duration also is quite clear, symptomatic people hopefully would isolate | 22:54 |
| dTal | it cannot be due to behavioural changes because it hits a ceiling very suddenly | 22:55 |
| de-facto | so then there is transmissibility = shedding_rate * susceptibility * transport_rate | 22:55 |
| Arsanerit | If I see it has peaked I become less careful not more careful. | 22:56 |
| Arsanerit | Psychologically an incidence of 500 seems worse if it was 100 the week before than if it was 2000 the week before | 22:56 |
| de-facto | the shedding_rate is something depending on variant and immune status, e.g. if it replicates in upper respiratory tract, the susceptibility also is something that depends on immune status and genetic conditions etc | 22:56 |
| de-facto | the transport_rate would depend on things like distancing, air-exchange and mask wearing | 22:57 |
| dTal | I don't observe massive, overnight behavioral changes consistent with an overnight reversal of R | 22:58 |
| Tuvix | Lots of the country is still seeing an increase in case counts from tests, but this could also be a factor of more efficient testing or more people getting tests. Regardless of that, climbing deaths, while a lagging indicator, clearly indicate the surge, even where cases do seem to be coming down (eg: NY & NYC), continue to result in an ever-climbing daily death toll. | 22:59 |
| dTal | it is as if reproduction runs out of people to infect and hits a brick wall | 22:59 |
| de-facto | so with the immune status being present in both, shedding_rate and susceptibility something like time-local community immunity located inside densely connected social graphs of high contact cohorts may depend quadratic-ally on seroprevalence | 22:59 |
| de-facto | it may decay later on and also only be localized inside those graphs but could possibly contribute significantly to a local reproduction number inside those graphs | 23:00 |
| Tuvix | That occurred to me to; once a varient lands in a new densly populated area, it won't take much for it to find its way into areas of high transmission: bars, indoor venues populated and especially the ones with little or poor airflow, and other such congregate settings. | 23:01 |
| Tuvix | Even if the spread continues, it'll fall off once it's burned though the easy-to-reach areas. | 23:01 |
| de-facto | also it spreads in clusters | 23:01 |
| de-facto | so people participating in scenarios allowing for cluster spreads will have much much higher attack rates than those that refuse that | 23:02 |
| de-facto | i think the confusion emerges from the assumption that populations are homogeneous, yet in reality they are quite diverse in terms of properties that determine their potential exposure rates | 23:04 |
| de-facto | so such properties divide population into sub-groups that are connected via social graphs and reproduction number localized to such sub-groups most likely is highly different from another such sub-group | 23:05 |
| de-facto | also the change of localized reproduction number may be mostly independent for each such sub-group as long as no agreement on generic containment is implemented | 23:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: Generic drug makers sign on to make Merck COVID-19 antiviral: Lisa Schnirring | News Editor | CIDRAP News Jan 20, 2022 Meanwhile, officials in Denmark and Norway say an Omicron subvariant called BA.2 is increasing rapidly. → https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/01/generic-drug-makers-sign-make-merck-covid-19-antiviral | 23:09 |
| minth_ | yes I think there's a part of the population that socializes and gets infected and a part that doesn't | 23:15 |
| Tuvix | Initially perhaps, but those initial groupings don't end up separated by some line or divider. | 23:17 |
| Tuvix | The careless may get infected first, and then they come into contact with the only marginally careful and so on. | 23:17 |
| Tuvix | It also spreads so easily that even pretty good protections by someone in the wrong place to be next to a contagious person (regardless of how they got it) can still pass it on. | 23:18 |
| Tuvix | I'm due to buy groceries tomorrow, and despite percautions of masking and hand-washing and visiting during off-hours I could still get infected despite it being my first trip out of the home in almost 3 weeks. | 23:19 |
| minth_ | of course, it's a spectrum | 23:19 |
| ecks | at this point I've pretty much accepted that I'm going to get omicron eventually | 23:20 |
| minth_ | which is why the rate doesn't drop to zero | 23:20 |
| minth_ | but the difference between being careful and not is huge, and individuals don't tend to flip quickly | 23:21 |
| minth_ | or maybe frequently is the word I mean | 23:23 |
| `St0ner | i'm super cautious and still caught omicron. shit ain't no joke | 23:27 |
| LjL | sdfgsdfg: again, from a peer reviewed paper that LjL posted <- not that it necessarily changes everything, but no, iirc it's a preprint | 23:27 |
| LjL | sdfgsdfg, i reviewed the earlier discussion. you really can't claim that "there isn't a controversy" over the vaccines - as in, that everybody who's not a "fanatic" agrees with your view - and after that, go on and call people fanatics, repeatedly | 23:39 |
| LjL | what does "well enough" mean? it doesn't work well enough to end the pandemic, no, i would have to agree with that, and i still *wish* we could find ones that do, although i'm not sure that will be possible | 23:40 |
| LjL | does it work "well enough" that it's worth using it? heck, absolutely yes | 23:40 |
| sdfgsdfg | I honestly think we are in agreement we just misunderstand each other over the wording | 23:40 |
| LjL | is there a controversy on that? yes, apparently, there is | 23:40 |
| sdfgsdfg | at least with the last point | 23:40 |
| sdfgsdfg | was that a preprint by the way 😂 *facepalm* | 23:41 |
| sdfgsdfg | my bad | 23:41 |
| LjL | well from my point of view, when you start repeatedly calling him a fanatic, that's not kosher | 23:41 |
| LjL | i understand sometimes people get angry and i've done that (repeatedly) before | 23:41 |
| LjL | but it's not okay, i just want this to be understood | 23:42 |
| sdfgsdfg | I mean think of all the times we are being called a stupid antivaxxer for simple attempt to question an important detail | 23:42 |
| LjL | i believe it was a preprint although my memory often fails me, i can bring it up | 23:42 |
| sdfgsdfg | any attempt to even ask a question gets attacked | 23:42 |
| LjL | sdfgsdfg, there are ways to say things. i think you wouldn't want to take the vaccine, and i disagree with that decision. but if someone went ahead and just said "hey you stupid antivaxxer", i'd tell them that's not okay | 23:43 |
| sdfgsdfg | this sounds like there is an increasing fanaticism over vaccines, they claim myocarditis is this myocarditis is that. There are different stats on myocarditis and we are all in agreement about them | 23:43 |
| LjL | we're not in agreement, when i added that paper to zotero, i remember i added a bunch of other papers that gave different numbers, because i tried to make a job of finding multiple ones, and people helped me, and i tried to add them all | 23:44 |
| LjL | some of them find lower numbers | 23:44 |
| LjL | i actually have a Myocarditis tag, so here are they all, hopefully https://www.zotero.org/groups/4391070/covid_links/tags/Myocarditis/library | 23:45 |
| sdfgsdfg | ok I might not be accurate with moderna side effects, that paper was the only one I've seen thats still in mind | 23:45 |
| LjL | that paper concerns me | 23:45 |
| Tuvix | sdfgsdfg: You never asked a question. 'or maybe the controversy is about the consecutive doses that don't even work well enough' (this was not a question) | 23:45 |
| LjL | i'll be honest it concerns me and when people say it's not at all a concern, i disagree | 23:45 |
| LjL | but i also can't say i saw a reasonable attitude from you in the discussion earlier | 23:45 |
| LjL | maybe it's because you get attacked too often, i don't know | 23:45 |
| sdfgsdfg | it's fine | 23:46 |
| LjL | i definitely see that 1) people are increasingly stressed 2) there's increasingly extremes and camps | 23:46 |
| sdfgsdfg | lol | 23:46 |
| Tuvix | In fact, you never asked a question at all in that escalation, and when I took issue with the very meaningless "well enough" you eventually took to insults, using terms like 'fanatic' and 'obnoxious' and claimed I was calling you an 'antivaxer' (when I never did) | 23:46 |
| sdfgsdfg | I also said you are right Tuvix and I shut up, I don't want to argue anymore | 23:47 |
| xrogaan | My third shot was moderna, first two were pfizer. That moderna one got me real bad, ~12 hours of feeling sick. If they want a fourth shot, I'm not going to take it. | 23:47 |
| LjL | 12 hours? | 23:48 |
| LjL | must've been real sick, for that to make a difference between taking it and not | 23:48 |
| LjL | did you have to go to hospital? | 23:48 |
| xrogaan | no | 23:48 |
| xrogaan | I didn't keep track of time though, might have been a shorter amount. Got fever, head spinning and shills. | 23:50 |
| LjL | xrogaan, that's unpleasant i'm sure and i can't know how you felt because my vaccines gave me no issue, but, i know that those are things that are considered "normal" side effects, that people can have for around up to two days without particular concerns, and they're often advised to take paracetamol if they bother them | 23:51 |
| xrogaan | "fever". I'm not being precise enough, so disregard. | 23:51 |
| xrogaan | Pfizer were fine. The moderna one, I'm not taking anything like that anymore. | 23:52 |
| LjL | anyway if a fourth shot will be needed maybe you can say that you had bad reactions to the Moderna and just request Pfizer | 23:52 |
| LjL | but they're similar vaccines, you know, it could have been that Pfizer would have had the same effects on a third shot | 23:52 |
| Tuvix | I had Pfizer for all 3, and the 3rd gave me the least symptoms of any of the doses. I never had major symptoms on any of them, but I did have a mild headache after #1 (and maybe #2, bit harder to tell since I didn't sleep as well after that one, so could have been my schedule more than anything.) | 23:54 |
| Tuvix | #3 was almost unnoticiable except for a sore arm for maybe 2 days, which is typical of most intra-muscular injections. It was still not as bad as a tetanus booster which was quite sore for 3 days. | 23:55 |
| xrogaan | I don't know about the reactions. And in any case, I believe booster shots are mostly done to reduce the amount of people going to the hospital. So it's not of a great concern for me personally. I'm vaccinated and I'll eventually (if not already) be exposed to the disease. | 23:58 |
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