| dTal | sounds like they were infected *after* being imported | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| dTal | or else PRC is doing contact tracing overseas | 00:00 |
| LjL | that just tells me they infected each other in the warehouse | 00:00 |
| LjL | i.e. the "source" as in the source of the mass infection of hamster | 00:00 |
| dTal | well they haven't established that there even is a mass infection of the hamsters | 00:00 |
| LjL | or the guardian doesn't know that they have...? information flow is not so great | 00:01 |
| dTal | apparently a "handful" have tested positive | 00:01 |
| dTal | but okay, I see your poiint | 00:01 |
| dTal | but it doesn't make any sense, they're targeting all hamsters bought after 22 December | 00:02 |
| dTal | that's a month ago | 00:02 |
| dTal | if you have a hamster that caught covid in that warehouse, it's cleared it by now surely | 00:03 |
| LjL | maybe interesting wrt what we were saying the other day | 00:03 |
| LjL | https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/article/3164316/quarantine-or-cull-let-hamsters-live-say-vets | 00:03 |
| LjL | “So anyone who has a hamster in their homes for more than six days – if it has not been exposed to a new hamster and it hasn’t been exposed to a human with Covid-19, then they are not going to get Covid from their hamsters,” she said. | 00:03 |
| LjL | “But if you did a PCR test on their faeces, it could come up positive, but they are not infectious any more.” | 00:03 |
| dTal | https://www.scmp.com/tech/tech-trends/article/3164231/nft-hamsters-project-launched-hong-kong-amid-public-backlash-over | 00:04 |
| LjL | i saw. also from SCMP "The mass cull of hamsters has gone down particularly badly with the public because the authorities admitted that the evidence that the hamsters are to blame is not clear, that there is no scientific literature confirming pets can transmit the virus to humans, and that the measure was a precautionary one." | 00:04 |
| dTal | this is the most 2020s headline ever | 00:04 |
| LjL | "However, with our present zero-Covid strategy, no matter how much of the population is vaccinated, a single untraceable case will bring the city to its knees. Does this sound like a new normal anyone wants to live in?" | 00:05 |
| LjL | HK, the PRC. PRC, HK. Have at it. | 00:05 |
| xx | I want to live in a world where hamsters are not kept as pets | 00:07 |
| xx | they spread covid (with at least some degree of evidence) | 00:08 |
| LjL | <Brainstorm> New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Surrendered Hong Kong hamster tests positive for Covid as cull continues → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sb59op/surrendered_hong_kong_hamster_tests_positive_for/ | 00:08 |
| LjL | xx, yes, and so do humans. maybe we should n- oh wait | 00:08 |
| xx | ;) | 00:08 |
| dTal | no meaningful communication is possible with someone with fundamentally opposed values | 00:09 |
| xx | we still communicate though and agree on many things and learn new stuff | 00:10 |
| LjL | "More than 35,000 residents in more than a dozen buildings in the area were ordered to take Covid-19 tests, and Lam visited the area on Sunday." | 00:10 |
| xx | that's quite a population density, having more than 35k residents in a dozen buildings | 00:12 |
| xx | I can see how that would prompt strict covid measures | 00:14 |
| LjL | anyway, it seems that whether you go for "zero covid" or "live with covid" as the "new normal", people won't like the new normal | 00:16 |
| LjL | and i can't blame them, but when do you decide that an increasingly long amount of time spent pursuing "zero covid", which, in my opinion, was the right thing to do, is to just be thrown away because the world has failed and you have to give up? | 00:17 |
| LjL | i can understand it feeling like... what's this, it has a name i'm sure, having increasingly high stakes in something and not wanting to give them up even though you see it's looking worse and worse for you | 00:18 |
| xx | sunk cost fallacy | 00:18 |
| LjL | that one | 00:18 |
| sdfgsdfg | <anarcat>from what i understand, immunity from previous infection, in general, is low (~19%) but what about if that infection was omicron? | 00:20 |
| sdfgsdfg | this is a log from yesterday | 00:20 |
| sdfgsdfg | I just found out about this last minute CDC research, which focuses on natural immunity | 00:20 |
| xx | I'm still in favor of the goal being complete eradication of coronavirus, and applaud countries that at least seemingly work towards that. It must feel really shitty when they see other countries not do as much. | 00:20 |
| LjL | xx, i think i'm begrudgingly not in favor of it anymore because really at this point i don't see it having a chance of success | 00:21 |
| xx | whether it actually has or does not have a chance becomes irrelevant if people stop believing that there's a chance... | 00:22 |
| LjL | maybe that's a "but mom, no one else is doing it" fallacy, but also there is the fact that variants have become increasingly contagious, and i think even if we all suddenly tried really hard (unlikely), Omicron and progeny would be tough to eradicade | 00:22 |
| sdfgsdfg | I'd like to share the link | 00:22 |
| LjL | te | 00:22 |
| sdfgsdfg | finally found it..... https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm#contribAff | 00:22 |
| sdfgsdfg | .title | 00:23 |
| Brainstorm | sdfgsdfg: From www.cdc.gov: COVID-19 Cases and Hospitalizations by COVID-19 Vaccination Status and Previous COVID-19 Diagnosis â California and New York, MayâNovember 2021 | MMWR | 00:23 |
| xx | LjL: that one is appeal to futility | 00:23 |
| lastshell | to bad all coutries are not doing one strategy, covid will never end | 00:23 |
| LjL | i'm somehow very bad at remembering the names of these things, although i can see they're pretty useful to know | 00:23 |
| xx | names are just useful shortcuts | 00:24 |
| LjL | %fdroid rhetoric | 00:24 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: no application with that name was found! | 00:24 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Last time I checked, not all indexes could be downloaded! (microg.org failed) | 00:24 |
| sdfgsdfg | "Vaccination protected against COVID-19 and related hospitalization, and surviving a previous infection protected against a reinfection and related hospitalization during periods of predominantly Alpha and Delta variant transmission, before the emergence of Omicron; evidence suggests decreased protection from both vaccine- and infection-induced immunity against Omicron infections, although additional protection with widespread receipt of booster | 00:25 |
| sdfgsdfg | COVID-19 vaccine doses is expected. " | 00:25 |
| LjL | ironic, i can't even remember the name of the app supposed to help remembering them | 00:25 |
| LjL | (although it doesn't quite) | 00:25 |
| xx | I'd rarely use formal logic (or informal fallacies) with e.g. hardcore antivaxxers, it just alienates them more | 00:25 |
| xx | "know your audience" and all that | 00:25 |
| sdfgsdfg | so natural immunity has better protection against reinfection and hospitalization or??? I can't see the numbers and comparisons .... | 00:25 |
| Tuvix | sdfgsdfg: No, it's not better, but it's better "than nothing." | 00:26 |
| LjL | xx, but you know the feeling of "i know this is a pattern i've seen before, and if i try hard i can probably write a verbose and imperfect description of it, but i also know it's described in detail on Wikipedia if only i knew what it's called"? | 00:26 |
| LjL | %fdroid logical defense | 00:27 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: no application with that name was found! | 00:27 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Last time I checked, not all indexes could be downloaded! (microg.org failed) | 00:27 |
| sdfgsdfg | how is it worse if it protects against reinfection and vaccines dont | 00:27 |
| * LjL groans | 00:27 | |
| Tuvix | Time is also a factor, and the varient one was infected with, both documented in other studies. Some re-infections between Delta and Omicron occurred in patients just weeks apart because the protection against omicron from _any_ prior varient isn't great, but the bit you quoted if you read it in the full context is that the strongest protection was found with Delta. Now, realizing the effectiveness wanes | 00:27 |
| LjL | %fdroid logical defence | 00:27 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Logical Defence 1.5.1 (za.co.lukestonehm.logicaldefence) in https://f-droid.org/repo: Prepare to battle against the sophists of the world with this beautiful app. - updated 2017-04-23, see https://github.com/LukeStonehm/LogicalDefence | 00:27 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Last time I checked, not all indexes could be downloaded! (microg.org failed) | 00:27 |
| Tuvix | over time as well, this makes temporal sense… | 00:27 |
| sdfgsdfg | I'm trying to understand the paper, help me out | 00:27 |
| Tuvix | Good god, and you change topic again. Great sdfgsdfg, let's switch topics again, cute. | 00:27 |
| lastshell | sdfgsdfg vaccienes prevent hospitalization | 00:27 |
| sdfgsdfg | lol | 00:27 |
| sdfgsdfg | I just started reading it so join me guys | 00:28 |
| Tuvix | So, vaccines DO help prevent both infections AND hospitalizaitons. You've been linked dozens of papers on this topic, and you come up with the same shit every day. | 00:28 |
| sdfgsdfg | lets prove the myths wrong | 00:28 |
| Tuvix | You're the one supplying them. | 00:28 |
| sdfgsdfg | tuvix stop writing | 00:28 |
| sdfgsdfg | and read some paper | 00:28 |
| lastshell | I got omicron and I was vaxed im stioo alive sdfgsdfg, my uncle was not vaxxed he die | 00:28 |
| LjL | sdfgsdfg, you're not just "trying to understand the paper". you're very clearly quoting pieces of it and then drawing/pushing conclusions that don't follow from what you quoted at all, and then quickly moving goalposts | 00:29 |
| xx | strawman | 00:30 |
| LjL | this is not news from today, you've done this for quite a while and i've grown tired of seeing it quite clearly and yet you skirting the line all the time just enough to give a tiny hint of good faith | 00:30 |
| sdfgsdfg | thats exactly right, I began a discussion by copy pasting a part of the conclusion | 00:30 |
| sdfgsdfg | of a large, early released but huge study | 00:30 |
| LjL | but if anything, "stop writing and read some paper" is what you ought to do, so feel free to do it now for a while | 00:30 |
| LjL | it's preposterous that you'd tell Tuvix, of all people, something like that | 00:31 |
| sdfgsdfg | ok, I'll come back with real numbers and conclusions again | 00:31 |
| sdfgsdfg | well he's being rude by saying you come up with the same shit every day | 00:31 |
| lastshell | yes natural imunity exist sdfgsdfg but there are risks | 00:31 |
| LjL | rude, or right | 00:31 |
| lastshell | I don't understand why people always like to push some narrative against vaccines | 00:31 |
| lastshell | yeah there are no perfect but they save a lot | 00:32 |
| Tuvix | He can't even read the summary, much less understand the section being quoted in context. For anyone who is "confused" by that study and for the benefit of this channel's purpose: "What are the implications for public health practice? […] Primary vaccination, additional doses, and booster doses are recommended for all eligible persons. Additional future recommendations for vaccine doses might be | 00:32 |
| Tuvix | warranted as the virus and immunity levels change." | 00:32 |
| xx | has there even been a legitimate paper that would say "vaccines are not recommended"? | 00:37 |
| xx | even with the findings about the some vaccine causing some heart problems for some 30 year old men did not end up saying "not recommended for this group" | 00:37 |
| Tuvix | Right, and there's good reason those in that group may opt for Pfizer instead, because of that, but the risk at least for Pfizer remains lower than catching COVID, and in fact that heart inflamation issue was discussed for children in the CDC's recent US approval for 5 to 11 year olds, and specifically noted that vaccination was still better given that specific issue. | 00:39 |
| Tuvix | And, just to make sure no one is under the illlusion that removal was to try and hide any information, it's not. Not only is the conclusion clearly in the summary, let's look at the _actual_ difference in vaccination, which is midway down the 1st body paragraph: | 00:39 |
| Tuvix | "rates were substantially lower among both groups with previous COVID-19 diagnoses, including 29.0-fold (California) and 14.7-fold lower (New York) among unvaccinated persons with a previous diagnosis, and 32.5-fold (California) and 19.8-fold lower (New York) among vaccinated persons with a previous diagnosis of COVID-19" | 00:40 |
| Tuvix | So, this means that, being vaccinated is an improvement, from 29.0 to 32.5 fold (a +2.5 improvement for vaccination) and an improvement from 14.7 to 19.8 fold (a +5.1 improvement for vaccination) regardless of state. | 00:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Covid Fact Check UK (@fact_covid): And COVID twitter.com/skynewsbreak/s… → https://twitter.com/fact_covid/status/1485394976854917127 | 00:43 |
| UnvaxGayRedneck | During October 3–16, compared with hospitalization rates among unvaccinated persons without a previous COVID-19 diagnosis, hospitalization rates were 19.8-fold lower (95% CI = 18.2–21.4) among vaccinated persons without a previous COVID-19 diagnosis, 55.3-fold lower (95% CI = 27.3–83.3) among unvaccinated persons with a previous COVID-19 | 00:49 |
| UnvaxGayRedneck | diagnosis, and 57.5-fold lower (95% CI = 29.2–85.8) among vaccinated persons with a previous COVID-19 diagnosis. | 00:49 |
| UnvaxGayRedneck | feeast your | 00:49 |
| UnvaxGayRedneck | FUCKING EYES | 00:49 |
| UnvaxGayRedneck | on natural immunity | 00:49 |
| UnvaxGayRedneck | homos | 00:49 |
| UnvaxGayRedneck | and fuck Tuvix and LjL | 00:49 |
| UnvaxGayRedneck | I'll be here every day | 00:49 |
| lastshell | looks like you just lasted less than 1 minute moron | 00:51 |
| lastshell | thanks LjL | 00:51 |
| BanEvasionIsAgai | you fcking dumbass. | 00:51 |
| BanEvasionIsAgai | keep it up | 00:51 |
| BanEvasionIsAgai | come on | 00:51 |
| BanEvasionIsAgai | bring it on | 00:51 |
| BanEvasionIsAgai | I will keep coming back for at least 150 times | 00:51 |
| lastshell | if you are just comming here for trolling you are not welcome | 00:51 |
| BanEvasionIsAgai | I am not trolling | 00:51 |
| BanEvasionIsAgai | I am proving the latest study on natural immunity | 00:52 |
| BanEvasionIsAgai | I will have it discussed | 00:52 |
| lastshell | we know about that | 00:52 |
| lastshell | is not something new | 00:52 |
| BanEvasionIsAgai | if natural immunity is almost as good as vaccines | 00:52 |
| BanEvasionIsAgai | people have the right TO FUCKING KNOW | 00:52 |
| lastshell | sure as long as covid doesn't give you long covid other health issues or death | 00:52 |
| lastshell | I guess is sgsg or whatever in disguise | 00:53 |
| LjL | lastshell, it is, but please just ignore | 00:53 |
| LjL | i'll try to keep them banned but it may be a challenge | 00:54 |
| lastshell | he is using proxies ? | 00:54 |
| lastshell | anyway yes let ignore that | 00:54 |
| LjL | lastshell, if he wasn't, and he reads this, now he will be | 00:54 |
| dTal | I love it when people confirm the correctness of the decision to ban then | 00:56 |
| Tuvix | The biggest takeaway for folks interested in the underlying issue (ignoring all the spam and hostilities here, and trying to return to something resembling on-topic) is that protection wanes seemingly with a factor of time and new varients with prior (and presumably future possible) immune evasion. | 00:56 |
| TreuerJesu | Good evening everybody | 00:58 |
| TreuerJesu | is this where to discuss covid | 00:58 |
| lastshell | https://www.timesofisrael.com/pfizer-ceo-to-israeli-tv-we-should-be-back-to-near-normal-in-a-few-months/ | 00:59 |
| TreuerJesu | that's great, it's finally ending eh | 01:00 |
| lastshell | I been seen to many people telling is the end soon | 01:00 |
| LjL | for real | 01:00 |
| lastshell | but I thing is hard to tell yet | 01:00 |
| TreuerJesu | we can hope for the best | 01:01 |
| TreuerJesu | and watch the signs | 01:01 |
| LjL | hoping for the best but expecting the worst ~ | 01:01 |
| lastshell | yes ^ | 01:01 |
| lastshell | "data cruncher" predicts pandemic is over https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctFs7zACr7E | 01:02 |
| lastshell | forgot to share his post: https://unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com/p/covid-end-game | 01:03 |
| LjL | lastshell, "The biggest risk is that you don’t internalize this and keep as usual instead of realizing we’ve entered the end state of COVID." | 01:04 |
| LjL | by "as usual", he means "as with COVID threatening us" | 01:04 |
| LjL | so that's funny, because he's internalized the "usual" as being COVID :P | 01:04 |
| LjL | anyway i just think we don't know what comes after Omicron, and we barely even know what comes *with* Omicron | 01:04 |
| TreuerJesu | yee the long covid stuff | 01:05 |
| lastshell | yeah I thing is to early to call victory as well, we assume new varians will be more "bening" but that is a wishful thinking | 01:05 |
| TreuerJesu | it's pretty bad isn't it | 01:05 |
| LjL | if Omicron really is "the endgame", then for myself, being in the defensive for a couple more months, after two years, won't be a deal breaker | 01:05 |
| Tuvix | Depends on what country you're in; the US (slightly worse than other countries here) never recovered from Delta. At best we never got to four times the 7-day averaged daily death totals. That's nto a recovery, it's a constant stream of death. | 01:06 |
| TreuerJesu | I think omicron's natural immunity will help the society to resist even new variants for quite some time | 01:06 |
| TreuerJesu | together with 3 doses of vaxxxx | 01:06 |
| TreuerJesu | nothing can stop us now | 01:06 |
| lastshell | I wish that TreuerJesu but new sub-variants and variants can maybe scape the previous protection | 01:07 |
| TreuerJesu | but after July 2022 we are a bunch of sheepsat the mercy of somalian pirates | 01:07 |
| TreuerJesu | fuck you ljl | 01:07 |
| lastshell | oh boy | 01:07 |
| lastshell | wonder why some countries al already removing restrictions | 01:09 |
| lastshell | now Ireland drop most covid restrictions | 01:09 |
| LjL | lastshell, probably a combination of 1) not thinking Omicron is much of a threat, and 2) not thinking Omicron is stoppable anyway | 01:10 |
| LjL | that doctor what's-her-name from South Africa, the head of South African GPs i believe, wrote vehemently that European countries should basically embrace Omicron, because it only helps | 01:11 |
| LjL | i bet some countries are at least partially embracing her viewpoint | 01:11 |
| * metan0va *coughs* | 01:11 | |
| metan0va | hi | 01:11 |
| LjL | metan0va, yes, you can pay for a VPN | 01:12 |
| dTal | it doesn't only help though | 01:12 |
| LjL | how else can you impress us? | 01:12 |
| metan0va | not really | 01:12 |
| dTal | lmao | 01:12 |
| A_Dragon | play stupid games, win stupid prizes | 01:12 |
| dTal | anyway, the problem with omicron is/was its huge reproduction rate | 01:12 |
| dTal | so even if it's "milder", still we have a massive problem of lots more people getting it | 01:13 |
| Tuvix | Yea, despite Omicron now (just occurred on Saturday's reporting update from CDC) overtaking the highest per-day rate (7-day avg.) of death, it would have been a lot worse if Omicron _was_ as lethal as Delta. The death is so high largely because of how many it infected so quickly. | 01:13 |
| dTal | "milder" only means a constant factor fewer patients, but the higher R means exponentially more of them | 01:14 |
| dTal | exponential > constant | 01:14 |
| Tuvix | True, but you expet that to fall off at some point as the rate of acceleration at least slows once it hits all the various pockets of easily-accessible social groups it can, slowing as it works into harder-to-find groups | 01:18 |
| Finocchio_LjL | we have a saying Finocchio | 01:24 |
| Finocchio_LjL | that's how we know LjL in italy | 01:24 |
| Finocchio_LjL | it means homosexual | 01:24 |
| Finocchio_LjL | like theres no tomorrow | 01:24 |
| LjL | confirmed true | 01:24 |
| Finocchio_LjL | hardcore gayboy | 01:25 |
| Finocchio_LjL | comeee | 01:25 |
| Finocchio_LjL | do it | 01:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): For J&J vaccine recipients, the immune response generated from an mRNA 2nd shot was superior to a 2nd J&J shot, for neutralizing antibodies, B and T cellscell.com/med/fulltext/S… (P-Pfizer) didn't matter w/ Prior Covid; new @MedCellPress pic.twitter.com/V4m23imofv → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1485408846864470016 | 01:32 |
| lastshell | dTal 7 of 8 family members that we gather got omicron | 01:33 |
| lastshell | my aunt is probaly super imnune for some reason never got a positive covid test | 01:34 |
| LjL | lastshell, remind me, did anyone definitely get smell/taste loss? | 01:34 |
| lastshell | LjL mom and I one night almost lost smell but was because we where super congestion | 01:34 |
| LjL | lastshell, yeah, aside from congestion | 01:34 |
| jess | i wonder... who that is | 01:35 |
| lastshell | was just like 30 minutes or so but I think was the congestion we use vaporoo and white vinegar to test | 01:35 |
| * jess runs off with LjL's +r | 01:35 | |
| jess | yay snail hat | 01:35 |
| * A_Dragon pushes up arrow twice, waits | 01:36 | |
| jess | skline could do with a "last person that joined" alias | 01:36 |
| lastshell | I was shock when I was not able to smell white vinager | 01:36 |
| lastshell | but doing luke warm gargle and rising nouse help us | 01:36 |
| LjL | lastshell, i'm asking because in general i keep hearing it's somewhat unlikely to lose smell/taste with Omicron compared to Delta | 01:37 |
| LjL | i'm not sure if we have actual rates | 01:37 |
| lastshell | but was like 20 or 30 minutes max I was super scare to be honest with you in that time frame | 01:37 |
| `St0ner | a few days before my primary omicron symptom set in (headache), my sense of smell had weakened slightly (i'm a home chef), maybe lost 20% of sensitivity. my sense of smell was back at 100% a day or 2 later. but then the headache and tiredness started, then i knew i caught omicron for sure since i never get headaches | 01:38 |
| `St0ner | it was very odd that the sense of smell was reduced but came back | 01:39 |
| dTal | hm my nose has been runny for a few days now, maybe I should test | 01:39 |
| dTal | although if I have it - god knows how | 01:39 |
| LjL | strong headache, sore throat seem to be hallmarks of Omicron, while loss of smell and taste seems to be a hallmark of Delta, or, uh, not-Omicron | 01:39 |
| LjL | not sure if i'm forgetting some other things | 01:39 |
| lastshell | I had strong headache just one day | 01:39 |
| lastshell | avobe my eyes approx | 01:40 |
| LjL | but this is all quite anecdotal, i've known a few people who've had Omicron and can confirm it for them but even if you took *everyone* i know it would still be a pretty small sample for anything =) | 01:40 |
| lastshell | funny my mom got omicron but she never had headache | 01:40 |
| lastshell | symilar symtoms like me but her was more body pain sadly but no headache | 01:41 |
| `St0ner | i've recovered since 2 weeks ago, with the exception of having to cough a few times an hour | 01:41 |
| `St0ner | some upper lung irritation goin on, remnants of the virus i guess | 01:41 |
| lastshell | `st0ner how is your hear rate ? | 01:41 |
| LjL | persistent cough also i think was one of the symptoms that stayed around more in the long COVID study dTal linked the other day, which mostly looked like most symptoms went back to baseline if you were vaccinated | 01:42 |
| `St0ner | almost back down to normal, 65bpm, normally when i'm in shape, it's in the 61-63bpm range, which makes the "excellent" category in fitbit | 01:42 |
| LjL | but cough and uh i think fatigued? stayed at around double baseline (but with a large confidence interval so it may not be true) | 01:42 |
| lastshell | `st0ner are you athelete ? | 01:43 |
| `St0ner | yes | 01:43 |
| lastshell | make sense I envy you in a good way | 01:43 |
| LjL | `St0ner, yes that's a good heartrate but around 3 or so bpm above pre-COVID levels was also what a Germany analysis of people's wearables found | 01:43 |
| `St0ner | i know and practice food science, nutrition, athletic shit | 01:43 |
| LjL-Matrix | just excuse me here for a second: testing | 01:44 |
| `St0ner | yeah, both the cough and very marginally increased heart rate tells me i still have lingering omicron. no big deal, i'm 90-98% recovered | 01:44 |
| `St0ner | 100% sure i wont be hospitalized or have permanent loss of smell or lung function. glad i got double dosed. maybe i would have had same result with 0-1 doses, but i'd rather not risk that | 01:45 |
| lastshell | awesome man | 01:46 |
| `St0ner | i think the antivaxxers and vaccine-hesitant are crazy to take the risk of not being dosed at all and not "priming" their immune systems to beat the virus. a lot of people have pretty wack views of risk management/reduction/transferrence/mitigation | 01:47 |
| dTal | hello Guest777 | 01:49 |
| LjL | Guest777, hi, as a matter of fact to speak in this channel you need *to* be registered at the moment. the topic on #libera should help with that | 01:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Scott Gottlieb, MD (@ScottGottliebMD): THREAD: As conditions improve in U.S., we must be willing to relax provisions as aggressively as we implemented them; lean in like U.K. Connecticut lifted vaccine mandate for state workers because state largely achieved its goals, and because of [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/1485426422017667073 | 02:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Scott Gottlieb, MD (@ScottGottliebMD): Both merit strong reconsideration as the incremental benefits of intervention diminish as result of continuing declines in Covid prevalence and a substantial rise in population-wide immunity; and the cost of acrimony and the cumulative impacts - [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/1485428796538949634 | 02:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: Probability of symptoms and critical disease after SARS-CoV-2 infection: Type Journal Article Author Piero Poletti Author Marcello Tirani Author Danilo Cereda Author Filippo Trentini Author Giorgio Guzzetta Author Giuliana Sabatino Author Valentina Marziano Author Ambra Castrofino [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/HVPCVAC4 | 02:59 |
| LjL | oh dTal, completely unrelated to covid but the bot is here, i forgot earlier in all this mess, i *think* this is probably a clone of your new favorite, although i haven't played it so i'm not sure | 03:10 |
| LjL | %fdroid gurgle | 03:10 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Gurgle 1.0 (org.billthefarmer.gurgle) in https://f-droid.org/repo: Word game - updated 2022-01-23, see https://github.com/billthefarmer/gurgle/releases | 03:10 |
| dTal | my new favorite? | 03:11 |
| dTal | oh wordle, right | 03:11 |
| LjL | yeah | 03:12 |
| dTal | there is only one true wordle | 03:12 |
| dTal | clones miss the point | 03:12 |
| LjL | but this is open source! | 03:12 |
| dTal | so is wordle, it's just a website and everything's client side | 03:13 |
| dTal | you can literally look at tomorrow's answer if you want | 03:13 |
| dTal | and that's the key to wordle - one word per day, same for everyone | 03:13 |
| dTal | ...why are we talking about this in here again? | 03:14 |
| LjL | because my bot could spit out about gurgle in here | 03:14 |
| LjL | but okay, if it's open source then | 03:14 |
| dTal | well alright it's not really open source strictly speaking | 03:16 |
| dTal | it's minified js | 03:16 |
| dTal | but who cares, it's a puzzle website | 03:16 |
| LjL | i care! | 03:17 |
| LjL | anyway, this looks kinda like uh what's its name | 03:17 |
| dTal | be thankful it's not an 'app' | 03:17 |
| LjL | Mastermind | 03:18 |
| LjL | but with words | 03:18 |
| dTal | that's right | 03:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: Association between vaccination status and reported incidence of post-acute COVID-19 symptoms in Israel: a cross-sectional study of patients tested between March 2020 and November 2021: Type Report Author Paul Kuodi Author Yanay Gorelik Author Hiba Zayyad Author Ofir Wertheim Author [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/PMVPIFJI | 03:18 |
| user | hmm | 03:24 |
| LjL | dTal, there is actually an app on Play called Wordle and the first thing they have to state in the description is that they're not THAT wordle ("but they're fans", or otherwise i guess if they started bitching about being there first they would get a whole wagon of bad reviews) | 03:35 |
| LjL | i got today's word wrong, but in my defense, i didn't know it was a word | 03:38 |
| dTal | ...crimp? | 03:40 |
| dTal | oh wait, apologies to any wordle addicts east of GMT+3 | 03:41 |
| LjL | dTal, oh it gives you a different word according to *local* time? | 03:41 |
| LjL | anyway yeah no not crimp | 03:42 |
| LjL | but i also don't know crimp | 03:42 |
| LjL | %w crimp | 03:42 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, crimp — adjective: 1. (obsolete) Easily crumbled; friable; brittle, 2. (obsolete) Weak; inconsistent; contradictory [... want %more?] → https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/crimp | 03:42 |
| dTal | yes; like I said, it's all client side | 03:43 |
| LjL | well the client usually knows what timezone it's in! it could use UTC | 03:43 |
| LjL | it would make more sense for... people like us who talk to people from elsewhere in the world ;( | 03:43 |
| dTal | it would be weird to have the wordle reset in the middle oof the day though | 03:43 |
| LjL | which may be a crime any time soon | 03:43 |
| dTal | it would interfere with the social aspect locally | 03:44 |
| LjL | dTal, but that'd only happen in places like Australia, and as we witnessed with the jester above, they're already pretty weird | 03:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): A potential cause of #LongCovid is persistence of the virus. A new report of an 11-year-old girl with abdominal pain 3 months out and small bowel biopsy positive for #SARSCoV2 virionsjournals.lww.com/jpgnr/Fulltext… by @md_wallach @sunydownstate and colleagues [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1485455074587406336 | 04:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): Now back to the studies. The first one, linked in the top post, looked at ER/urgent-care visits, and at hospitalizations. Hospitalization protection against Omicron is also poor after two doses and waning. It's also restored to excellent levels by a [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1485456272786812930 | 04:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): We've seen that the dose number matters a lot for the creation of Omicron-reactive nAbs, which are required to prevent early symptoms, so it's not surprising that a fresh 2nd dose is not as good as a fresh 3rd dose on ER/urgent-care visits. [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1485462948688510978 | 05:14 |
| LjL | WHO on Omicron in Europe: | 05:22 |
| LjL | "It's plausible that the region is moving towards a kind of pandemic endgame," Hans Kluge told AFP in an interview, adding that Omicron could infect 60 percent of Europeans by March. | 05:22 |
| LjL | how does that even happen? we're at 20% in Lombardy, and the growth is slowing down | 05:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): So overall confirms big benefits of the third shot in terms of avoiding the ER or urgent care, i.e. serious disease, and of fresh vaccines for avoiding hospitalization, i.e. severe disease. → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1485466563566137345 | 05:23 |
| user | +sh | 05:25 |
| LjL | more on virus persistence in the gut | 05:27 |
| LjL | %title https://journals.lww.com/jpgnr/Fulltext/2022/02000/Persistent_SARS_CoV_2_Nucleocapsid_Protein.9.aspx | 05:27 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From journals.lww.com: Persistent SARS-CoV-2 Nucleocapsid Protein Presence in the I... : JPGN Reports | 05:27 |
| LjL | i think at this point it's clear it's at least *possible*. next step should be to see how prevalent it is | 05:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): Now I'll wade into somewhat more controversial waters and discuss the other interesting study this week, which found Wuhan strain infection protected against being a Delta case better than vaccination (also Wuhan strain) did. cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/7… [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1485469281005424643 | 05:33 |
| LjL | uh oh | 05:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): We know from the @BalazsLab study mentioned above, and linked below, that viral infection isn't better than vaccines in broadening an antibody repertoire, so I don't think it's that. So rather it seems that mucosal immunity after 2 vax shots decays [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1485471561771454466 | 05:43 |
| Tuvix | ^ Yea, there he goes connecting the dots (I think.) Froom the mmwr: "Importantly, infection-derived protection was higher after the Delta variant became predominant, a time when vaccine-induced immunity for many persons declined because of immune evasion and immunologic waning […] Although the epidemiology of COVID-19 might change with the emergence of new variants, vaccination remains the safest | 05:44 |
| Tuvix | strategy to prevent SARS-CoV-2 infections and associated complications" | 05:44 |
| Tuvix | That quote from the mmwr is making a temporal association between antibody-supplied immunity, which has more to do with timing and continued public health monitoring, and possible vaccine updates if shown to be significantly more effective against prevailing strains. | 05:45 |
| LjL | i know that de-facto has been going on about mucosal immunity for ages | 05:57 |
| LjL | and i don't know why we don't have intranasal vaccines yet | 05:57 |
| LjL | would they be useless? i don't think so | 05:58 |
| Tuvix | Well, would it be a multiple-series thing like with mRNA to get the needed cell memory in useful quantities to fight off infection? Is that as useful if/once it progresses into the lungs vs. long-term B-cell memory? We really need useful trials to get some of those answers and compare results. | 06:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): I mention mucosal antibodies prevent infection. Typically IgA is considered to be mucosal but recent data show IgG is there too. 9 months after infection, nasal mucous still contains high levels of IgA and IgG. We need to know if vax do the [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1485476690344099845 | 06:02 |
| Tuvix | We have a wide array of baseline comparison candidates given the right design for a trial, but setting it up in a way that evaluates alternatives meaninfully would be crucial to get data to continue development and further trials. | 06:02 |
| Tuvix | I don't know if it's because that's a challenging set of requirements, or if there's cause to believe it won't be as effective, though it'd be interesting to hear from leading minds on that. | 06:03 |
| LjL | Tuvix, well, there are certainly registered trials for intranasal vaccines. i think India is actually using one, although i'm not positive | 06:04 |
| LjL | but trials don't proceed very swiftly if they're only half-assed funding-wise | 06:05 |
| Tuvix | Right, and without finding or enough interest, it's hard-to-impossible to get enough impact to bring others on board, even with a promissing theory. | 06:06 |
| de-facto | https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/10/1/64 "Large-Scale Study of Antibody Titer Decay following BNT162b2 mRNA Vaccine or SARS-CoV-2 Infection" <-- i just wish they would have done more even distribution weighting on their stats (e.g. not those clusters) | 06:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: High prevalence of olfactory disorders 18 months after contracting COVID-19: Type Report Author Arnaud Tognetti Author Evelina Thunell Author Mats J. Olsson Author Nina Greilert-Norin Author Sebastian Havervall Author Charlotte Thalin Author Johan N. Lundstrom URL [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/4IZ4KB7A | 06:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): So where can a better vaccine come from?Here's an idea: The J&J vax may be a good intranasal vaccine!I've been the first to say J&J is not as good as RNA vax *intramuscular*. BUT it's in adenovirus — which naturally infects the nose.J&J: You [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1485481008858238977 | 06:21 |
| de-facto | .title v | 06:56 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto, the command line provided is invalid | 06:56 |
| de-facto | meh | 06:56 |
| de-facto | .title https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04816019 | 06:56 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From clinicaltrials.gov: A Study of Intranasal ChAdOx1 nCOV-19 - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov | 06:56 |
| de-facto | Estimated Study Completion Date : March 31, 2022 | 06:56 |
| de-facto | although only 54 participants hmm | 07:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): Huh, this story says Walensky didn't realize Delta could transmit via vaccinated people until she saw Provincetown data in late July: nytimes.com/2022/01/23/us/… So neither she nor 20k CDC employees noticed weeks of news about Delta doing that in [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1485507481744789506 | 08:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Biotech: Building on a study of Covid drugs, scientists launch effort to accelerate clinical trials for other diseases → https://www.statnews.com/2022/01/24/building-on-study-of-covid-drugs-scientists-launch-effort-to-accelerate-clinical-trials/ | 08:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from Science-Based Medicine: The “spiritual child of the Great Barrington Declaration” promotes antivaccine misinformation: The signatories of the Great Barrington Declaration and the institute that is its "spiritual child," the Brownstone [... want %more?] → https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-spiritual-child-of-the-great-barrington-declaration-promotes-antivaccine-misinformation/ | 09:03 |
| gry | what country(ies) do RATs for school pupils every day? .au(nsw) plan to do twice a week for students and staff | 09:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: Innate Immune Suppression by SARS-CoV-2 mRNA Vaccinations: The role of G-quadruplexes, exosomes and microRNAs → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/sbhb8u/innate_immune_suppression_by_sarscov2_mrna/ | 09:32 |
| xx | ^ not peer reviewed, but I guarantee it will be making all the rounds with antivax folk | 09:42 |
| gry | `In this paper, we present the evidence that vaccination, unlike natural infection, induces a profound impairment in type I interferon signaling, which has diverse adverse consequences to human health.` | 09:43 |
| gry | hmm... | 09:43 |
| xx | authors declare no conflict of interest (this may be updated later). Partially funded by quanta in taiwan, that company is a fine company and taiwan in general does not seem to be antivax. Together the authors clearly understand a broad spectrum of issues. However, I still don't know if the numbers actually warrant that caution. | 09:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: SARS-CoV-2 Viral Genes Compromise Survival and Functions of Human Pluripotent Stem Cell-derived Cardiomyocytes via Reducing Cellular ATP Level → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/sbhvt8/sarscov2_viral_genes_compromise_survival_and/ | 10:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Opinion: Antigen testing has some serious problems. Done right, it could reshape the future of health care: As Americans come to value rapid home testing for Covid-19, I believe this will usher in a new era of health care in which people feel comfortable testing for a… → https://www.statnews.com/2022/01/24/antigen-testing-future-of-health-care/ | 10:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from WHO Euro: (news): Two years on, we could be entering a new phase in the pandemic with plausible hope for stabilization yet too early to drop our guard → {"param":"apiKey","title":"Invalid authorization","type":"INVALID_AUTHORIZATION","status":401,"detail":"Expected authentication to be provided in \"apiKey\" query param"} | 11:09 |
| xx | Brainstorm seems to have some apiKey issues | 11:24 |
| genera | and the line folds as "THORIZATION" | 11:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Previous pandemics: advocating a return to the good old days?: Robertson and Doshi are right that there will be no grand announcement of the end of the pandemic.1 It will come at different times to different places. But to compare it to previous pandemics is... → http://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o166.short | 11:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: WHO Europe head hopes pandemic emergency to end this year: The high number of infections as well as disparities in vaccine access remain causes for concern, he said. → https://www.politico.eu/article/who-europe-hopes-pandemic-emergency-covid19-coronavirus-end-this-year/ | 11:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Swinney: Easing of Covid restrictions 'significant moment': For the first time since Boxing Day nightclubs can reopen and there are no capacity limits on large indoor events. → https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60098531 | 11:58 |
| xx | nightclubs reopening with no capacity limits, that's gonna be fun | 12:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from BioNTech: Pfizer and BioNTech Publish Data from Two Laboratory Studies on COVID-19 Vaccine-induced Antibodies Ability to Neutralize SARS-CoV-2 Omicron Variant: NEW YORK and MAINZ, GERMANY, January 24, 2022 — Pfizer Inc. (NYSE: PFE) [... want %more?] → https://investors.biontech.de/news-releases/news-release-details/pfizer-and-biontech-publish-data-two-laboratory-studies-covid-19 | 12:57 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: The cGAS-STING pathway drives type I IFN immunopathology in COVID-19 | Nature → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/sbkqag/the_cgassting_pathway_drives_type_i_ifn/ | 13:07 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.21.476344v1 | 13:13 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.biorxiv.org: Neutralization of Omicron SARS-CoV-2 by 2 or 3 doses of BNT162b2 vaccine | bioRxiv | 13:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Walter Verbrugghe (@WaVerbrugghe): @TijlDeBie Makkelijk praten. U hebt id 4de golf in het midden vd nacht niet moeten zoeken naar een IC-bed dat er niet was terwijl meer dan de helft vd COVID-IC-bedden ingenomen was door niet gevaccineerden. Als die zich hadden laten vaccineren id [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/WaVerbrugghe/status/1485587256433950723 | 13:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Covid Fact Check UK (@fact_covid): COVID tests for fully vaccinated travellers arriving in England are being scrapped, the Prime Minister has confirmed.news.sky.com/story/covid-19… → https://twitter.com/fact_covid/status/1485589824883077120 | 13:36 |
| xx | ^ that is insane | 13:39 |
| Dredd | I have some anecdotal data from travelling on trains in the UK over the last week or two | 13:45 |
| Dredd | Last week everyone had a mask and the trains weren't over crowded | 13:45 |
| Dredd | Yesterday the trains were overfull and almost no one wearing masks | 13:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Covid Fact Check UK (@fact_covid): Mr Johnson was speaking during a visit to a hospital training centre in Milton Keynes. He did not provide any further details, other than it will apply to those who are “double vaccinated.” → https://twitter.com/fact_covid/status/1485592134967349249 | 13:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: Weekly Scientific Discussion Thread - January 24, 2022: This weekly thread is for scientific discussion pertaining to COVID-19. Please post questions about the science of this virus and disease here to collect them for others and clear up post space for [... want %more?] → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/sblouc/weekly_scientific_discussion_thread_january_24/ | 14:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Squawk Box (@SquawkCNBC): "You want to lift these kinds of mitigation steps in places where they're most disruptive first. Instead of lifting them for indoor venues ... we should look at what we can do in the schools," says @ScottGottliebMD on the mask mandates where #covid rates are [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/SquawkCNBC/status/1485601720768118792 | 14:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Jeffrey Barrett (@jcbarret): As of 15 Jan, an SG+ test in England more likely to be BA.2 than Delta (both are loose change compared to BA.1). from covid19.sanger.ac.uk pic.twitter.com/E9FNo4Ei92 → https://twitter.com/jcbarret/status/1485606855137185802 | 14:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: Brussels riot: What you need to know: Protest against coronavirus restrictions spirals out of control. What's next? → https://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-protest-coronavirus-measures-what-you-need-to-know/ | 14:53 |
| Dredd | People protesting in Brussels: "Most of all, they say they want their freedoms back" | 14:57 |
| Dredd | Maybe they should protest to the virus itself rather than humans having to work around it then? | 14:57 |
| dTal | like the man in Life of Brian who wants the right to become pregnant | 14:59 |
| Dredd | 😀 | 15:01 |
| xx | men shouldn't be denied the right to become pregnant | 15:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Pharma: STAT+: Pharmalittle: Did Hal Barron hit his goals before leaving Glaxo? FDA rejects drugs from Merck and Pfizer → https://www.statnews.com/pharmalot/2022/01/24/glaxo-merck-pfizer-fda-cancer-cvs/ | 15:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: Reduced interferon antagonism but similar drug sensitivity in Omicron variant compared to Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2 isolates → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/sbobbn/reduced_interferon_antagonism_but_similar_drug/ | 16:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Similarity in death rate reduction by vaccination and booster in Switzerland and the United States@OurWorldInData and covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tra…~99% reduction from unvaccinated to boosted pic.twitter.com/FPuJW2ayYi → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1485635894224642052 | 16:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: China brings back anal swab testing for Covid two weeks before Winter Olympics begin → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sbotg8/china_brings_back_anal_swab_testing_for_covid_two/ | 16:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: valerie: Arcturus Therapeutics Inc: LUNAR-COV19/ARCT-021 → https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/20/ | 17:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: valerie: Altimmune Inc: AdCOVID → https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/75/ | 17:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: valerie: Arcturus Therapeutics Inc: ARCT-165 → https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/148/ | 17:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Covid Fact Check UK (@fact_covid): Quarantine will end for unvaccinated travellers into England. twitter.com/benclatworthy/… → https://twitter.com/fact_covid/status/1485651444564959232 | 17:41 |
| xx | ^ wow | 17:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from Contagion Live: Investigators Identify Why Omicron Causes Less Severe Disease: Omicron is less effective at antagonizing host cell interferon response, explaining why it causes less severe disease than prior COVID-19 variants. → https://www.contagionlive.com/view/investigators-identify-why-omicron-causes-less-severe-disease | 17:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: British politics: UK minister quits with blast at government’s coronavirus fraud handling → https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-loses-minister-over-gov-covid-19-fraud-handling/ | 18:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): In people age 60+, a "3-fold protective effect vs serious illness" from a 4th vaccine dose in Israel (400,000 people with 4th dose vs 600,00 with 3rd dose past 4 months, few details available)timesofisrael.com/health-ministr… → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1485659708656521218 | 18:10 |
| Tuvix | xx: Regarding the complete nonsense article you commented on, the author has quite literally (if you just skim the section headings) gone and attributed vaccination to over a dozen conditons, and the reasoning is absolutely looney. Many of the claims are backed up by nothing more than supposition and vauge references to VAERS which is not clinically useful since there's no clinical requirement for entry | 18:15 |
| Tuvix | (anyone can add literally anything to it) | 18:15 |
| user | 'less severe' should be used instead of 'mild' | 18:16 |
| xx | Tuvix: which is why I said that the numbers are not there (at least in my view) to support it | 18:17 |
| Tuvix | Right, I'm just astonished if people actually read that critically and thought that paper had any value to actually describing the claims its principle author thinks it does. | 18:18 |
| Tuvix | He basically waves his hands and someone insists that it's well-known that everything in VAERS is under-reported and every listing is true at face value. One only needs to skim VAERS to see how much rubbish is in there, but it still *is* a useful tool for public health experts to use, with that understanding. | 18:19 |
| Tuvix | somehow insists* | 18:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): nCoV: Scientists Track Omicron Subtype, Denmark, UK, Singapore, India | 24JAN22 → https://old.reddit.com/r/nCoV/comments/sbr3ab/scientists_track_omicron_subtype_denmark_uk/ | 18:20 |
| Tuvix | This is a _very_ short primer on the topic, but: https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaers-9318-idUSL1N2P21CV | 18:20 |
| xx | I mean, even if those 9000 deaths were legitimate, that would be out of billions of doses of the vaccine | 18:22 |
| xx | for a causal link I'd expect much larger number of deaths | 18:22 |
| Tuvix | That's US-specific, but remember, healthcare providers are required to report all deaths even potentially related as such directly to the CDC, and _those_ get quite a lot of scrutiny | 18:23 |
| xx | isn't it already close to a billion doses of the vaccine (all together) administered in US by now? | 18:25 |
| Tuvix | https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations_vacc-total-admin-rate-total | 18:26 |
| xx | the sheer number of vaccine doses having been administered is the greatest contribution towards the safety profile of the vaccines | 18:26 |
| Tuvix | Roughly 0.5B doses administered, although that's fewer people mind you. | 18:26 |
| xx | 0.5B and 1B doses feels like not that much of a difference | 18:27 |
| Tuvix | Right, I mean the safety was quite good overall, but the issue is that VAERS is not a clinically relevant source of material to cite in a study as your primary metric. | 18:27 |
| xx | even with those 0.5B doses we'd already see a large uptick in adverse events | 18:28 |
| melchior | in cardiac metabolism, what is the primary source ATP is derived from? | 18:28 |
| Raf[m] | ATP is primarily derived from fatty acids in the heart | 18:29 |
| Raf[m] | estimates between 70-90% | 18:29 |
| Raf[m] | actually even as high as 95% - https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/physrev.00015.2009?rfr_dat=cr_pub++0pubmed&url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori%3Arid%3Acrossref.org | 18:30 |
| Raf[m] | "In the normal adult heart, almost all (>95%) of ATP production is derived from mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation " | 18:30 |
| melchior | in mRNA vaccines, what encapsulates the mRNA strand that is injected into cells for ribosomes to transcribe? | 18:30 |
| Raf[m] | is that a loaded question? what is the relationship with the heart's metabolism? | 18:32 |
| melchior | answer the question and maybe the dots will connect | 18:33 |
| xx | sounds like a loaded question, because the answer is a suspension in fats, among other stuff | 18:34 |
| xx | so you probably want to say that the heart tissue will preferentially absorb the mRNA | 18:34 |
| Tuvix | If you're in need of dots to be connected, it will probably help to know what, specifically you're looking for. If I've misread this and you really want to read more about the delivery mechanism, here's a pretty good primer, though you'll want to block out a good 15 to 20 minutes to work through it: https://portlandpress.com/biochemist/article/43/4/4/229294/Design-and-delivery-of-messenger-RNA-based | 18:35 |
| Raf[m] | the heart is a garbage disposal, it will metabolize anything if there is a need. fats, sugar, ketones, etc | 18:37 |
| xx | it will metabolize itself too | 18:38 |
| xx | if there is a need | 18:38 |
| Raf[m] | I have never heard of that. source? | 18:39 |
| xx | probably some severe starvation studies | 18:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Pharma: STAT+: Pfizer faces calls to quickly sell more Covid-19 pills to poorer countries → https://www.statnews.com/pharmalot/2022/01/24/covid19-vaccine-pfizer-patents/ | 18:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Data from Switzerland and Chile on the gradient of reduction of death from unvaccinated, to 2-dose vaccinated, to booster @OurWorldinDataourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-b…by @redouad @MaxCRoser thanks @JusDayDa twitter.com/EricTopol/stat… pic.twitter.com/QHhDUoT1as → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1485671140248801280 | 19:00 |
| lastshell | Dr John Campbell "Excellent natural immunity confirmed" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25-iJKPA1CA He is been a little controversial in some videos | 19:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from Contagion Live: us: Most COVID-19 Patients Admitted to ICU Still Experience Symptoms 1 Year Later → https://www.contagionlive.com/view/most-covid-19-patients-admitted-to-icu-still-experience-symptoms-1-year-later | 19:10 |
| xx | well to be fair, I don't know of anyone who had been in ICU for any reason to be completely fine a year later (or ever) | 19:12 |
| lastshell | I know someone in Mexico who spend some time with the respirator he is fine now but yeah was not a nice experience for him | 19:13 |
| xx | lastshell: artificial ventillation or just oxygen support? | 19:14 |
| xx | one of them usually involves being in ICU unit, the other does not | 19:14 |
| lastshell | I think was oxygen support | 19:14 |
| xx | sure, I know lots of people who at some point in their life needed extra oxygen and were fine afterwards | 19:15 |
| lastshell | I see artifical ventiallation is the icu when they are pretty much in bad territory ? | 19:15 |
| xx | that's pretty much when they can't breathe on their own, i.e. they'd die within minutes without machines | 19:16 |
| xx | whereas that stuff where you increase the concentration of oxygen in the air they breathe, by putting that mask over their face, is still "mild" in comparison | 19:17 |
| lastshell | what a horrible way to die | 19:18 |
| xx | usually people lose consciousness before they die that way, so maybe it's not that bad | 19:19 |
| xx | death by fire is probably worse | 19:20 |
| lastshell | just thinking about my uncle | 19:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): No science data as yet; but indications that in over 60s, 4th dose has some effect on disease and infection. Something to keep in mind for this age group when autumn nears. Green passes seem on their way out.timesofisrael.com/health-ministr… → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1485678043729477642 | 19:20 |
| lastshell | I hope he was ok | 19:20 |
| lastshell | https://www.news-medical.net/news/20220122/Study-highlights-the-neurologic-manifestations-linked-with-COVID-19-in-hospitalized-children.aspx | 19:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from WebMD: Booster Shots 90% Effective at Preventing Omicron Hospitalizations: CDC Data: Booster shots of the Pfizer and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines appear to be highly effective at preventing hospitalizations due to the Omicron variant, [... want %more?] → https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20220124/booster-shots-effective-preventing-omicron-hospitalizations-cdc | 19:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: Aviation: England scraps day 2 coronavirus tests for vaccinated travelers → https://www.politico.eu/article/england-scraps-day-2-tests-for-vaccinated-travelers/ | 19:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): The Omicron wave in the US 4 most populous states (~1/3rd of the population)All but one (TX) are showing solid signs of descent pic.twitter.com/5VGpKINJVv → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1485684445973987328 | 19:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: British politics: Boris Johnson had indoor birthday party during UK lockdown, report claims → https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-birthday-party-coronavirus-lockdown-downing-street-sue-gray-carrie-johnson/ | 20:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: News Scan for Jan 24, 2022: COVID-19 and docs' mental health More H5N1 avian flu in Africa, Europe → https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/01/news-scan-jan-24-2022 | 20:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Adding this important study, the largest household (~12,000) contact study for Omicron and Delta infections and *impact of booster* (3rd) dose vaccination:Infections were reduced OR 0.54, CI 0.40-0.71)Transmission risk reduced OR: 0.72, CI: [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1485701543173103616 | 20:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from Contagion Live: us: Public Health Watch: COVID-19 Pandemic Has Led to 2-Year Decline in US Life Expectancy → https://www.contagionlive.com/view/public-health-watch-covid-19-pandemic-has-led-to-2-year-decline-in-us-life-expectancy | 21:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Highlighting the data above are for all agesGraphs for vaccination vs deaths by age groups (w/o booster partitioned): twitter.com/redouad/status… → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1485712751482011648 | 21:38 |
| Nokaji | losers | 21:40 |
| Arsanerit | 19:20:03 < xx> death by fire is probably worse | 21:41 |
| Arsanerit | If at night, you may well lose consciousness due to smoke before you wake up to notice the fire. | 21:41 |
| Arsanerit | So people dying from a fire at night might never notice they're dying (which is why *audible* fire alarms are so crucial; sense of scent doesn't work at night). | 21:42 |
| xx | (or if you have corona) | 21:42 |
| xx | can people who lost sense of smell due to corona actually smell smoke? | 21:43 |
| Arsanerit | What if we could have a detector that would give an audible alarm if it detects aerosols that contain the virus? | 21:43 |
| xx | my hearing is... special... so I'd prefer a vibration bracelet for that | 21:43 |
| Arsanerit | I suppose that would be possible in theory but difficult in practice. | 21:43 |
| Arsanerit | Do such bracelets exist to complement fire alarms for hearing impaired people? | 21:44 |
| Tuvix | They'll My combination smoke & CO detector is crazy loud. It forces a self-test each time the batteries are replaced, and I have to wear ear protection when I'm that close to it. | 21:44 |
| xx | Arsanerit: they exist, I have them | 21:44 |
| Arsanerit | Our smoke detector has long lasting batteries and is checked remotely. We are prohibited from attempting to remove the batteries ourselves. | 21:45 |
| xx | it's hard to authoritatively say if people with corona can or cannot smell smoke. It looks more along the lines of smell being impaired or distorted, so they may smell smoke when none is present instead. | 21:46 |
| LjL | xx, i would say it seems like initially they tend more to *lose* their sense of smell, but over the long term it tends more to be distorted | 21:47 |
| xx | though it may be too late by that point, I'd imagine the sensation of smoke in one's throat would not be impaired, since that's different receptors | 21:48 |
| xx | but that also requires higher concentration of smoke | 21:48 |
| xx | I don't actually know what those receptors are, never looked into that | 21:48 |
| Tuvix | During awake hours, strobes are often used in addition to sirens at least quite commonly in commercial buildings, and homes equipped for the hard-of-hearing. | 21:49 |
| Tuvix | That's true as well for things like doorbells and so on. | 21:49 |
| LjL | i suspect the riskiest time for fires (in residential buildings) is when asleep though | 21:50 |
| Arsanerit | We have 4 modern fire detectors in our 69 m² apartment. We have no CO detectors. | 21:51 |
| trbp | Arsanerit: do you have open fire? | 21:51 |
| Tuvix | The natural-gas powered HVAC here makes at least 1 CO detector something I would replace right away if it wasn't working. | 21:51 |
| Arsanerit | trbp: No. Nor closed fire. | 21:51 |
| LjL | we have one smoke detector and we really only installed it because it came as an accessory for our alarm system. smoke detectors are not at all "culturally" common here, but i also remember checking some statistics and seeing we were among the countries with the least fire deaths. it may have to do with our construction materials | 21:52 |
| trbp | Arsanerit: why should you need co detector then? | 21:52 |
| Arsanerit | trbp: We don't. | 21:52 |
| Arsanerit | Smoke detectors are required by law here in every bedroom and every room between bedroom and exit routes. If someone decides to sleep in the living room we have to inform our landlord. | 21:53 |
| xx | in one of our warehouses we have some fancy heartbeat detectors | 21:53 |
| LjL | i find it a bit creepy that where in your apartment people are sleeping is something you are required to inform others of ;( | 21:53 |
| LjL | xx, remote? | 21:53 |
| xx | yeah, they are not attached to people | 21:54 |
| Arsanerit | This is because the landlord is required to install smoke detectors in any room in which people are sleeping. Maybe we don't have to inform the landlord in our case because there is already a smoke detector in the living room (that one is not mandatory by law). | 21:54 |
| LjL | xx, that's cool. i believe the Xbox 3D camera thing however it's called can be used for that, within some angle. | 21:54 |
| xx | it's used to detect if there are people still present inside | 21:54 |
| Arsanerit | But if we decide to put a divider in the living room such that it becomes effectively two rooms, then we do have to inform the landlord as it affects fire safety. | 21:55 |
| xx | apparently very hard to beat | 21:55 |
| LjL | xx, oh. i thought it could also be useful if someone is known to suffer from heart issues | 21:55 |
| xx | I don't know much about it, I'd be surprised if it can differentiate between several different people | 21:55 |
| xx | it's simply supposed to be a binary "Is there anyone present, yes or no?" | 21:56 |
| xx | very useful in case something bad happens in the warehouse and all else fails that we wouldn't know if there's anyone trapped in there | 21:56 |
| LjL | xx, will it still work if there's active fire? i assume it's IR based | 21:59 |
| xx | I think it uses microwaves | 21:59 |
| LjL | oh, wouldn't have expected that, not sure how that'd work | 21:59 |
| xx | I think we got it from https://www.geovox.com/ | 22:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: STAT+: Fearing spies, Sanofi wants to nix new condo towers that will overlook a Toronto vaccine plant: Sanofi is urging the Toronto City Council to restrict development of a residential property over concerns that the building heights could make it easier to spy on an expanding vaccine… → https://www.statnews.com/pharmalot/2022/01/24/sanofi-vaccine-flu-toronto-spy/ | 22:07 |
| LjL | fancy | 22:09 |
| xx | if only we'd have such sensors to detect corona, yeah | 22:09 |
| LjL | maybe the next variant will come with a heart | 22:09 |
| xx | the only thing that approaches it is the temperature sensing on entry, which can tell you if someone's body temperature is elevated | 22:10 |
| LjL | well there is the dogs possibility (although i've seen several bits of news about it and then it never materialized as something used in practice) | 22:10 |
| LjL | and i think we also recently had some paper posted where they could detect viral RNA in the air? or actually, maybe it was about detecting a person's own DNA from breath (creepy), but i bet that would work with viral RNA too | 22:11 |
| LjL | <Brainstorm> New from r/Science: science: Two new studies collected air samples from zoos & demonstrated the ability to identify a range of animals --49 animal species, including mammals, birds, frogs, reptiles and fish -- living there from their airborne DNA. This could eventually be used [... want %more?] → https://old.reddit.com/r/science/comments/rxy4nm/two_new_studies_collected_air_samples_from_zoos/ | 22:11 |
| xx | I'm not exactly in favor of using dogs. The cheap workaround is to have a person with a contactless thermometer and hand santitizer on the door. | 22:12 |
| LjL | also <Brainstorm> New from ScienceNews: Scientists vacuumed animal DNA out of thin air for the first time: The ability to sniff out animals’ airborne genetic material has been on researchers’ wish list for over a decade. → https://www.sciencenews.org/article/animal-dna-air-scientist-vacuum-first-time-zoo | 22:12 |
| de-facto | contactless thermometers are very unreliable | 22:12 |
| LjL | xx, the thing is fever is quite an unreliable indicator of someone having COVID, and it generally only shows when they have other obvious symptoms too, so i'm not convinced it's terribly useful | 22:12 |
| xx | de-facto: yeah, they suck | 22:13 |
| de-facto | could outside? have people with 35°C fever? | 22:13 |
| LjL | last time i went to the dentist it measured "Too low" :P | 22:13 |
| ecks | rectal temps at the door for customers | 22:14 |
| de-facto | in theory the measurement is quite accurate, but the problem is to try to measure body *core* temp on the surface, the contact interface to the thermally unstable outside | 22:14 |
| LjL | de-facto, what if they measured it inside your mouth? that wouldn't need to be invasive, just open your mouth and aim the thing at it | 22:14 |
| LjL | although again, many people with COVID just don't have fever, so it's an intrinsically imperfect way to spot it | 22:15 |
| de-facto | spectral measurement method is accurate for systems in thermal balance, not to measure body temp on surface | 22:15 |
| de-facto | yeah thats would be better | 22:15 |
| xx | ecks: good idea, could also send out the swab for testing | 22:15 |
| de-facto | i have such a thing here on my desk | 22:16 |
| de-facto | played with it a little, inside ears, mouth etc its better (with the in-ear calibration) but on the frontside of the head? 2 °C tolerance is not acceptable | 22:16 |
| de-facto | so what you see in the medial people getting measured on the front of their heads, its extremely unreliable | 22:17 |
| xx | LjL: opening the mouth requires taking off the mask | 22:18 |
| LjL | hm true | 22:18 |
| de-facto | yes most start to get infections a day ahead of becoming symptomatic, hence it wont stop importing cases | 22:18 |
| LjL | it's not just about importing. temperature checks are the norm here in many places. | 22:19 |
| xx | rectal thermometers would possibly be the best solution, it's quick and reliable | 22:20 |
| LjL | (though not the average shop) | 22:20 |
| LjL | sure | 22:20 |
| de-facto | artificial nose | 22:22 |
| de-facto | biochemical sensors of broad enough spectrum with AI | 22:22 |
| dTal | artificial nose, up the rectum | 22:22 |
| de-facto | no for breath analysis | 22:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: COVID-19 ebbs, but US hospital cases, deaths stay high: Stephanie Soucheray | News Reporter | CIDRAP News Jan 24, 2022 Cities and states are still struggling with high demands for hospital services. → https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/01/covid-19-ebbs-us-hospital-cases-deaths-stay-high | 22:26 |
| xx | de-facto: farts are just butt breath | 22:27 |
| xx | and farts do spread covid too | 22:27 |
| de-facto | .title https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0252121 | 22:27 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From journals.plos.org: Proof of concept for real-time detection of SARS CoV-2 infection with an electronic nose | 22:27 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Now deaths by age groups: 65+, 50-49, 18-49For each group, death is reduced by 99% for vaccination plus booster compared with unvaccinated (down to zero for youngest age group)ourworldindata.org/grapher/united… pic.twitter.com/ddQb0aV9qP → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1485725136296706051 | 22:36 |
| LjL | xx: do you *know* farts spread covid? I thought we were at the "why not, but nobody has studied it" stage | 22:41 |
| xx | I don't have hard evidence for it, no | 22:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): BTW the unvaxxed groups in the papers above are expected to have some people with prior infection too (maybe 30% by December). If compared to unvaxxed uninfected alone, vaccine protection would be higher in all vaccine groups. → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1485729283016253441 | 22:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): Cases rising rapidly in the US, with high circulation and a large unvaccinated population; the viral load will rise and circulation will increase.Of course, protection against severe disease will remain. pic.twitter.com/k5iMM4BoMg → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1485731045517500422 | 22:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Leana Wen, M.D. (@DrLeanaWen): 3 new studies should erase any doubt that boosters are needed for optimal protection against #covid19.When science changes, policy should adapt too. The same national effort for initial vaccinations should now occur for boosters. @PostOpinions [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/DrLeanaWen/status/1485732171075706882 | 23:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Theo Sanderson (@theosanderson): BA.2 will make up 50% of UK genomes by specimen date by: → https://twitter.com/theosanderson/status/1485736939315777536 | 23:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: WHO chief warns conditions ripe for more COVID-19 variants: Lisa Schnirring | News Editor | CIDRAP News Jan 24, 2022 Officials say too many people globally remain unvaccinated, driving disease spread. → https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/01/who-chief-warns-conditions-ripe-more-covid-19-variants | 23:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: COVID-19: endemic doesn’t mean harmless → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/sby99j/covid19_endemic_doesnt_mean_harmless/ | 23:34 |
| LjL | with all due understanding that it's not right that most people in the world remain unvaccinated, i don't really understand why the WHO thinks *that* makes conditions ripe for new variants | 23:49 |
| LjL | Omicron circulates quite easily among vaccinated people, that's a fact. probably not quite *as* easily as if you aren't unvaccinated, but that may well be offset by an evolutionary pressure towards evasiveness | 23:49 |
| LjL | i completely fail to see how having the world vaccinated would make conditions less ripe for new variants. it would make fewer people die, that's for sure, and it would seem like a good enough argument to make on its own | 23:50 |
| Tuvix | Here in the US it's a "victory" when cases decline. Nevermind that even before omicron we had 4 to 5 times the daily rate of death as seen in early summer. Maybe someday soon we can "only" have that 4.5x rate of death from July 2021. Perhaps by July 2022, assuming we see improvement after this current still-accelerating rate of death finally stops accelerating… | 23:55 |
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