| de-facto | if someone gets infected it usually happens with a low contamination dose, hence very low antigenic variety of pathogen (only a few versions of RNA at most) | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| de-facto | then infecting cells replication errors happen, most probably leading to damaged or infunctional virions, yet (a minority?) of them is functional infecting other cells, some of which carrying (non-disadvantageous) mutations | 00:02 |
| de-facto | very few of them MAY from time to time discover a mutation that not only is not a disadvantage but even an advantage under the selection pressure given by the human body | 00:03 |
| de-facto | hence the longer the infection is going on inside a body the more of such mutation combination it could "try out" against all the branches of immune system or also against all the possibilities for more efficient replication | 00:04 |
| de-facto | the longer it replicates the more mutations it accumulated and the more its phylogenetic tree spreads inside that carriers body | 00:05 |
| de-facto | if someone is vaccinated the infection probably also can grow for a bit, but the immune reaction is a lot more prompt in terms of reacting to the pathogen presence, starting to ramp up production of all kinds of antibodies, alerting cellular immunity etc | 00:05 |
| de-facto | in an naive host the "incognito" (native)-immuno evasive capabilities of SARS-CoV-2 may allow it to replicate longer until the immune system really gets alerted to the intruder and then starts from scratch to deal with an unknown pathogen (never seen anything like that) | 00:07 |
| de-facto | hence of course in such a case a naive immune system will take longer time to find an effective strategy against the pathogen, allowing it to replicate up to higher numbers, penetrate more tissues and intrude more organs etc | 00:07 |
| de-facto | that way the pathogen may "explore" many more possibilities inside such a naive body compared to one where the immune system already is competent to fighting off another variant of the pathogen | 00:08 |
| Tuvix | Although if some of this emerging research suggesting that both vaccination and prior infection (notwithstanding the impact of various VoC's on the various successors) how well equipped the immune system is may also be a factor of how recently that antibody response was last seen. | 00:09 |
| Tuvix | Also the durability, eg: if 3 doses are better than 2 mRNA, that in addition to temporal effects are likely factors. | 00:09 |
| gry | what country does school rapid antigen test every day ? i forgot | 00:09 |
| de-facto | i think that is the reason that immuno-naive may have more severe disease (once the immune system realizes the magnitude of the problem it overreacts and even may run away in cytokine storm with massive amounts of the antigen present) and also longer lasting or even persistent infections (such as in immuno-compromised) may bring out many more mutations, hence potentially be the birthplace for a new VoC | 00:10 |
| de-facto | probably in reality there have been really nasty VoCs yet circumstances did not allow it to spread to the next carrier (e.g. when the scenario would not allow for transmission or superspread) hence may gotten extinct (fortunately) | 00:11 |
| Klinda | btw here there are around 400 deaths each day for covid | 00:11 |
| de-facto | only if transmission paths allow such a potential VoC to initially seed up to a critical amount of carriers (e.g. in a superspread or such) it may really take off and become a new globally spreading VoC | 00:12 |
| Klinda | some say like "it's not the cause they are death for that, but they had also other things" | 00:12 |
| de-facto | each day ~7800 people die from COVID currently, thats one each 11 seconds worldwide | 00:13 |
| de-facto | https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ | 00:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Bob Wachter (@Bob_Wachter): Even "simple" Covid data points can be confusing. Take SF's case curve:sf.gov/resource/2021/… When cases were skyrocketing (in early Jan), the 7-day average of cases UNDERestimated what was happening "right now." Conversely, a 7-d avg OVERestimates cases [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/Bob_Wachter/status/1485750150353932294 | 00:14 |
| Klinda | but what if they count pepole that they suffer from other things | 00:14 |
| Klinda | but discovered positive? | 00:14 |
| de-facto | there is an expectation value for mortality rates, e.g. when comparing how many people died each year as a rate over time | 00:15 |
| de-facto | comparing previous years (e.g. 2018, 2019) with the trajectory for mortality of the years after the pandemic started (e.g 2020, 2021, 2022, ...) there is an excess of mortality (more deaths than the expecation value if conditions would not have changed) | 00:16 |
| de-facto | https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid | 00:16 |
| Klinda | how much compared to the flu? | 00:16 |
| de-facto | there was almost no influenza since the pandemic started because SARS-CoV-2 is much more infectious | 00:18 |
| Tuvix | Klinda: Most reporting of deaths "caused by" COVID have complications from the virus infection as the _primary_ cause, in contrast to having been in say a car accident or something. The reality is that most countries official death figures are actually an undercount of the pandemic's impact, because the number of what we call 'Excess Deaths' are notably higher. This means more people are dying in a given | 00:18 |
| Tuvix | time (eg: each month and year) more than you'd expect to see in the population. | 00:18 |
| Tuvix | The result is that we _know_ a major event has occurred globally, since this trend is seen across countries. ie: we know it's the pandemic. Unless you're in a country that also has another major disaster that's causing a huge amount of death, that "big event" is quite obviously the pandemic. This means the myth that all these deaths are really something else is just that: a myth. | 00:19 |
| Klinda | but in these three years they only did a vaccine and that's it | 00:20 |
| de-facto | Klinda, COVID is about an order of magnitude more deadly compared to most years of the influenza (in terms of probability for a deadly trajectory after infection) | 00:20 |
| de-facto | .title https://github.com/mbevand/covid19-age-stratified-ifr | 00:20 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From github.com: GitHub - mbevand/covid19-age-stratified-ifr: Calculates the age-stratified infection fatality ratio (IFR) of COVID-19 | 00:20 |
| Klinda | I mean I didn't take any specific medicine to cure the virus, maybe only to the rich pepole they give something | 00:20 |
| Tuvix | Keep in mind some excess deaths are not, in fact, *directly* caused by COVID. Here in the US a big national headline was a war vet who died waiting for care in a hospital ER becuase he couldn't be seen; he at a completely tretable condition, but all the COVID patients had overwhelemed the hospital, so he didn't get care in time. | 00:20 |
| Tuvix | He is an example of an "excess death" due to COVID. | 00:20 |
| Tuvix | 1 death is not unusual, but in aggregate there are many that die from similar results. Not as many as from COVID directly, but enough to show up in national statistics. | 00:21 |
| Klinda | if they state did some measures to stop the pandemic and didn't work, now they are like saying all will eventually take it, so die or not die | 00:22 |
| Klinda | *The states | 00:22 |
| Tuvix | The states, as in the US? The US in general has almost no restriction, including the ones we know work. Even when masks were "required" in my city, it was very often ignored. We never got enough compliance with rules, and without meaningful enforcement it didn't do enough to stop the spread. | 00:23 |
| Klinda | here in Italy | 00:23 |
| Klinda | they did some measures like lockdown or something but in the end now they are "opening" all if you get the booster | 00:23 |
| Klinda | and that's it | 00:23 |
| de-facto | how is the situation in Italy there? | 00:24 |
| Klinda | like 120k infections each day | 00:24 |
| Klinda | and 400 deaths | 00:24 |
| de-facto | similar to Germany, but italy got 60M Germany 80M population size | 00:24 |
| Tuvix | /27/ | 00:25 |
| Klinda | but now on the tv they like say "no it's nothing I don't have anyone that got omicron in my hospital, so we can live in a normal way soon" | 00:25 |
| Klinda | always if you did the booster | 00:26 |
| Tuvix | Italy seems to have done less poorly lthan the US in terms of handling things going as far back as Delta. The US saw an acceleration in our death rates that is notible enough to be worse than any of the other 9 most impacted countries by comparison. | 00:26 |
| de-facto | almost looks like Italy MAY be on top of its peak there? https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/ | 00:26 |
| Tuvix | In the US, last summer (our Delta peak hit around mid-July to August depending on location) our death rate, ie: the numbers dying each day, went up far faster than most of our peers. | 00:26 |
| de-facto | some time ago i took hospitalizations in UK 10 days ago and divided them by the current cases, quotient as a function of time. it was more or less a constant | 00:27 |
| Klinda | they say like omicron can infect 10 person in a closed place, so yeah all evenutally will get it with vaccine or not | 00:27 |
| Klinda | so we will have immunity with or without that you take the virus | 00:27 |
| Tuvix | It's quite infectious, yes, but when exposed the vaccinated do _much_ better. | 00:27 |
| Klinda | in these years we have only the vaccine | 00:28 |
| Klinda | no medicine | 00:28 |
| de-facto | sorry, correction: hospitalizations for a given day divided by infections 10 days ago | 00:28 |
| Klinda | medicines are only for trump and others? | 00:28 |
| Klinda | that's the problem if the state care to all | 00:28 |
| de-facto | meaning hospitalizations (but fortunately not ICU beds) were rising the same way as infecitons (10 days ago) | 00:28 |
| Tuvix | antibodies and oral treatments are available for others, so that's not true. Earlier on there were also plasma treatments being explored, although it seems the mAb treatments are more effective. | 00:29 |
| de-facto | then there is data from UK showing that vaccination is very effective in preventing hospitalization with Omicron even | 00:29 |
| Tuvix | Obviously it's best to be vaccinated because the vaccinated, when faced with infection, do far better. | 00:29 |
| de-facto | with booster vaccination 9 out of 10 hospitalizations could be prevented | 00:29 |
| Klinda | I have the virus the medic just get me antibiotics and paracentamol that's it | 00:29 |
| Tuvix | You seem to be trying hard to discount vaccines because they don't prevent infectino, but you're looking at this the wrong way (and you were doing the same thing last time you took this approach.) | 00:29 |
| Klinda | so I fight alone | 00:30 |
| de-facto | .title https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1048395/technical-briefing-34-14-january-2022.pdf from https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-of-sars-cov-2-variants-technical-briefings | 00:30 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From assets.publishing.service.gov.uk: SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern and variants under investigation- Technical briefing 34 (UKHSA) | 00:30 |
| Klinda | I had two doses of the vaccine and that's it | 00:30 |
| Tuvix | Right, treatments after infection are both in limted supply and have side-effects of their own, all which need to be considered. | 00:30 |
| Tuvix | Were you seriously ill? What was your experience like? | 00:30 |
| Klinda | I stil have the virus, if you remeber | 00:31 |
| de-facto | Citing their page 27 | 00:31 |
| de-facto | "One dose of vaccine was associated with a 43% reduced risk of hospitalisation among symptomatic cases with the Omicron variant, 2 doses with a 55% reduction up to 24 weeks after the second dose and a 40% reduced risk 25 or more weeks after the second dose, and a third dose was associated with a 74% reduced risk of hospitalisation in the first 2 to 4 weeks after vaccination, dropping slightly to a 66% reduction by 10+ weeks after the booster dose." | 00:31 |
| de-facto | "When combined with vaccine effectiveness against symptomatic disease this was equivalent to vaccine effectiveness against hospitalisation of 58% after one dose, 64% 2 to 24 weeks after 2 doses, 44% 25+ weeks after 2 doses, and 92% dropping to 83% 10+ weeks after a booster dose. Combining the periods for the third dose, overall vaccine effectiveness 2+ weeks after the booster was 89% (95% confidence interval 86 to 91%)." | 00:31 |
| Klinda | I had for 4 days like fever, sore troath and cough, cold... now sometimes I have coughs and the nose is still a bit infected | 00:31 |
| de-facto | hence VE against hospitalization from booster means VE = 89% ~ 0.9 = 1 - RRR or RRR = 1 - 0.9 = 0.1 or 1/10 preventing 9 of 10 cases | 00:32 |
| Klinda | 15 days passed | 00:32 |
| Tuvix | Right. So the severe cases end up in the hospital or even ICU, some of those requiring supplemental oxygen or even mechanical ventilation. Vaccination helps greatly reduce any of those more serious side-effects. | 00:32 |
| de-facto | cases of hospitalizations for boosted compared to immuno naive | 00:32 |
| Tuvix | It also slightly reduces infection chances, but not nearly as notably as it does vs. hospitalization and more serious effects. | 00:32 |
| Klinda | I did the test on the day 10 | 00:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): ICU and hospitalization data are tracking with this@CovidActNow pic.twitter.com/h4xGqJbA1X → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1485756803610669056 | 00:33 |
| Klinda | soon I will do the test and let's see if I fought it xD | 00:33 |
| Tuvix | Sure, around 5-10% (depending on which study you're using) of positive cases still test positive 10 days after first test. | 00:33 |
| Klinda | yes but it's only me vs the virus, no one in these years did anything to fight the virus well | 00:34 |
| Klinda | only the vaccine | 00:34 |
| Klinda | that's the problem in my opinion | 00:34 |
| Klinda | what if I have the virus > 30 days? | 00:34 |
| Tuvix | We just covered all the other ways that we've fought this. Antibody treatments, mitigations, public messaging around masks and reducing physical contacts and the size of gatherings, there are *all* things society has done. | 00:35 |
| Klinda | I always stayed at home since the pandemic started, just my dad went to work and took it | 00:35 |
| Tuvix | Isn't that clearly taking action then? | 00:35 |
| Tuvix | You claimed no one was doing anything, but then you just described something you'd done, presumably becuase the public health messaging told you to. Yes? | 00:36 |
| Klinda | the restrictions didn't work for sure | 00:36 |
| Tuvix | They reduced the spread, which reduced the possible deaths that would have resulted had nothing been done. | 00:36 |
| Klinda | maybe we have to dress like the medics that cure the patients affected by the virus | 00:37 |
| Klinda | isn't that simple? | 00:37 |
| Tuvix | Imagine a duplicate world were we literally did nothing. Everyone went to work and parties and gatherings: we'd have a lot more spread and thus more deaths, and more overwhelmed hospitals. | 00:37 |
| Klinda | yes of course without that restrictions there will be more cases | 00:37 |
| de-facto | if you know of a cure that knowledge currently would be worth billions (of dollars) and hundreds of thousands of lifes | 00:38 |
| de-facto | *lives | 00:38 |
| Tuvix | It's not that simple, no. This virus is very good at spreading and the mitigations that would be required to stop it are effecively non-starters. Even China, with all its heavy handy tactics can't get to COVID-zero, although they're trying a lot harder by virtue of the military-style tactics they use. | 00:38 |
| Tuvix | Obviously a military-style enforcement of China-level restrictions are not viable in Italy. | 00:38 |
| Tuvix | (or most other countries for that matter) | 00:38 |
| Klinda | I think Trump get cured | 00:38 |
| Klinda | with some special medicine | 00:39 |
| Klinda | or rich pepole | 00:39 |
| Klinda | we are just numbers for them in the end | 00:39 |
| Klinda | only powerful pepole matter | 00:39 |
| de-facto | not so special he got Regeneron antibody cocktail and some other minor things | 00:39 |
| de-facto | it was publicly listed by his doctors | 00:39 |
| de-facto | surely expensive though | 00:39 |
| Tuvix | Which at the time was indeed in very limited supply, but this is the leader of a country, so such special treatment is not exactly unheard of. | 00:39 |
| Tuvix | I'd imagine the Italian PM would also be taken very good care of if he was seriously ill, from any disease. | 00:40 |
| Klinda | sure | 00:40 |
| Klinda | Berlusconi | 00:40 |
| Klinda | had some special treatment | 00:40 |
| Tuvix | Most officials at that level do. That's not new from the pandemic though ;) | 00:41 |
| Klinda | so I am hoping for some poor-pepole medication that's it | 00:41 |
| Klinda | or I mean I took it with vaccine and I had to fight alone | 00:41 |
| Klinda | as the flu it's the same | 00:42 |
| de-facto | here is the letter of Trumps doctor https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EjWZ3g0XkAcLLak?format=jpg&name=large | 00:42 |
| Klinda | here they only prescribe paracentamol and that's it | 00:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): during the omicron a booster dose was 90 percent effective at preventing hospitalization, compared with just 57 percent for those who had received two shots and were at least 180 days, or about six months, out from the second dose. cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/7… → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1485759284378013696 | 00:42 |
| de-facto | 8 grams of Regenerons (polyclonal) antibody cocktail, Zinc, Vitamin D, Famotidine, Melatonin and Aspirin | 00:43 |
| Klinda | what's the use of zinc, vitmin D, famotidine, melatonin ? | 00:43 |
| gry | increase immunity | 00:44 |
| squirrel | i started typing "zinc helps covid" in google it suggested to complete it to "zinc helps covfefe" | 00:44 |
| gry | yay | 00:44 |
| de-facto | all may possibly have a benefit, his doctors surely did think of some strategy when prescribing those | 00:44 |
| de-facto | (that is for the symptoms HE had at this time) | 00:44 |
| dTal | zinc is pretty good to supplement generally, in moderation | 00:45 |
| de-facto | i take 15mg every day | 00:46 |
| de-facto | and 50µg D3 | 00:46 |
| de-facto | and a lot of other multivitamins | 00:46 |
| Klinda | but I think the million medicine is 8 grams of Regenerons (polyclonal) antibody cocktail ? | 00:46 |
| Mike[m]12 | squirrel: search.brave.com don't use google | 00:46 |
| Tuvix | Klinda: Again, unless you had a specificly bad case, it sounds like vaccination equipped you to fight your infection quite well. This approach is similar to what we do with the flu, with the obvious implication that COVID's impact is much worse, by an order or 2 of magnitude (and worse due to the healthcare stress.) | 00:47 |
| Tuvix | The mAb and other treatments have their own considerations and are _not_ necessarily *medically* indicated for every positive case. | 00:47 |
| de-facto | .title https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casirivimab/Imdevimab | 00:48 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From de.wikipedia.org: Casirivimab/Imdevimab – Wikipedia | 00:48 |
| Klinda | what if do I develop long covid ? | 00:48 |
| Klinda | maybe with medicine I could reduce the probability to get it | 00:48 |
| Klinda | that's it | 00:48 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/EPAR/ronapreve | 00:48 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.ema.europa.eu: Ronapreve | European Medicines Agency | 00:48 |
| de-facto | thats the antibody cocktail REGN-COV2 that Trump also got (before it was approved though) | 00:49 |
| Klinda | imagine if we used this to the pepole who were dead | 00:50 |
| Klinda | more chance they were alive? | 00:50 |
| de-facto | the more its used the higher the probability the virus will evade it and become resistent to this antibody cocktail (they use two antibodies to lower that risk, but still its static, it can not follow antigenic drift) | 00:51 |
| Klinda | ah understand like the antibiotics | 00:52 |
| de-facto | yeah similar to that | 00:52 |
| de-facto | its a static molecule, it does not have feedback like an immune system that could follow antigenic drift by developing newer more efficent versions of antibodies | 00:53 |
| de-facto | btw vaccination may lower the risk of long covid significantly | 00:54 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.05.22268800v2 | 00:54 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.medrxiv.org: Association between vaccination status and reported incidence of post-acute COVID-19 symptoms in Israel: a cross-sectional study of patients tested between March 2020 and November 2021 | medRxiv | 00:54 |
| Klinda | I prefered to take the booster, passed 14 days and took it btw | 00:55 |
| de-facto | " Long COVID is a post-severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infection syndrome characterised by not recovering for several weeks or months following the acute episode. " | 00:55 |
| Klinda | my dad had to do it on monday and feel bad on saturday or sunday.. | 00:55 |
| de-facto | "The effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines against long-term symptoms of COVID-19 is not well understood. We determined whether vaccination was associated with the incidence of reporting long-term symptoms post-SARS-CoV-2 infection | 00:55 |
| de-facto | " | 00:55 |
| de-facto | "We included 951 infected and 2437 uninfected individuals. Of the infected, 637(67%) were vaccinated. The most commonly reported symptoms were; fatigue (22%), headache (20%), weakness (13%), and persistent muscle pain (10%)." | 00:56 |
| de-facto | "After adjusting for follow-up time and baseline symptoms, those who received two doses less likely than unvaccinated individuals to report any of these symptoms by 64%, 54%, 57%, and 68% respectively, (Risk ratios 0.36, 0.46, 0.43, 0.32, p<0.04 in the listed sequence)." | 00:56 |
| de-facto | "Those who received two doses were no more likely to report any of these symptoms than individuals reporting no previous SARS-CoV-2 infection." | 00:56 |
| de-facto | "Vaccination with at least two doses of COVID-19 vaccine was associated with a substantial decrease in reporting the most common post-acute COVID-19 symptoms, bringing it back to baseline." | 00:56 |
| Klinda | I hope so | 00:56 |
| de-facto | "Our results suggest that, in addition to reducing the risk of acute illness, COVID-19 vaccination may have a protective effect against long COVID." | 00:57 |
| de-facto | its a preprint though, so did not have peer review by other scientists yet | 00:57 |
| Klinda | you never know it, you just live and that's it | 00:57 |
| de-facto | we have to make the best out of the situation anyhow | 00:57 |
| Tuvix | That's true of most disease too, fwiw. | 00:57 |
| Klinda | I have not a bad immune system if after 10 days it didn't remove the virus? | 00:59 |
| Tuvix | That's not a conclusion you can draw from that result, no. | 01:00 |
| Klinda | what it's waiting I have to wake him up ahahah | 01:01 |
| de-facto | many test positive for presence of fragments of the virus (e.g. rapid antigen tests for presence of the nucleocapsid protein (where the viral RNA wraps around), PCR test for fragments of the RNA present etc), it may simply be debris from the war against the virus, it also may be that some of the virions are "barely" functional though (possible to infect others MAYBE) yet it most likely does also means that viral load will not increase again (of you | 01:02 |
| de-facto | dont begin to feel sick again or such) | 01:02 |
| de-facto | most likely it means you are in the process of cleaning it up and that there simply is so much of it that it takes some time to get rid of it | 01:02 |
| de-facto | but again be careful and stay away from other people, because your body obviously can fight it, others may get infected and not be so lucky | 01:03 |
| Klinda | yes I am always home, since 2 years | 01:03 |
| de-facto | just give it some time and isolate till you test negative and hoave no symptoms left | 01:03 |
| Klinda | now I have only a congestion in the nose | 01:04 |
| de-facto | yeah you will be fine | 01:04 |
| Klinda | also I think if I take a rapid it show negative | 01:04 |
| Klinda | I always to the molecular one | 01:05 |
| Klinda | *do | 01:05 |
| de-facto | rapid tests are a lot less sensitive | 01:05 |
| de-facto | yeah | 01:05 |
| Klinda | so imagine all the pepole who trust on the rapid | 01:05 |
| Klinda | and infect other pepole.. | 01:05 |
| Klinda | a disaster btw | 01:05 |
| Klinda | also this.. | 01:05 |
| de-facto | the molecular PCR test is a lot more sensitive because it amplifies the RNA in the sample, hence can detect smaller amounts of it | 01:05 |
| de-facto | yeah and Omicron may replicate more in the throat than in the nose, most rapid antigen tests come with instructions to take samples form the nose though... | 01:06 |
| Klinda | in my case it only stayed in the troath and nose (or at least the syptoms were there) | 01:07 |
| de-facto | a properly taken naso-pharyngeal sample and PCR test still is the gold standard (but many countries may how have enough capacity left to give it to everyone asking of rit) | 01:07 |
| de-facto | yeah thats why i always tell people to drink Green Tea | 01:07 |
| Klinda | I always drink tea in the morning | 01:07 |
| de-facto | it contains molecules that may also clamp onto virions surface and inactivate them, hence for those virions that happen to be on the mucosal surface it may be effective (the Green tea inactivating them) | 01:08 |
| Klinda | with honeymoon too | 01:08 |
| Klinda | honey* | 01:08 |
| Klinda | xD | 01:08 |
| de-facto | but it would have to be taken in small sips over long time periods because of course it could not reach those parts of the infection that currently are inside cells in the process of replicating | 01:09 |
| de-facto | yeah Black Tea and Green Tea is a very good idea (normal amounts, but over long times) | 01:09 |
| de-facto | %papers TSA | 01:09 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto, 10 results out of 52: Different Effects of the COVID-19 Pandemic on Exercise Indexes and Mood States Based on Sport Types, Exercise Dependency and Individual Characteristics by Alireza Aghababa et al, dated 2021-06-03 → https://www.doi.org/10.3390/children8060438 [... want %more?] | 01:09 |
| Klinda | but I mean you can't fight the virus with tea, I mean if it targets the lungs... that's it | 01:10 |
| Klinda | I don't know how it happens | 01:10 |
| de-facto | yeah but if its still in the throat tea may reduce the viral load a bit, giving the immune system an advantage in fighting it off (maybe) | 01:11 |
| de-facto | of course its not a cure or such, but it may help a bit | 01:11 |
| Klinda | but how the virus decide to target the lungs? | 01:11 |
| Klinda | if it win against the immune systsm? | 01:11 |
| de-facto | .title https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34208050/ | 01:11 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov: Significant Inactivation of SARS-CoV-2 In Vitro by a Green Tea Catechin, a Catechin-Derivative, and Black Tea Galloylated Theaflavins - PubMed | 01:11 |
| de-facto | the virus does not decide, it just uses some surface features of cells to infect them | 01:12 |
| de-facto | and unfortunately ACE2 and TMPRSS2 happen to be exposed also in lung cells | 01:12 |
| de-facto | btw Omicron lost the ability to profit from TMPRSS2, so maybe that may be a difference there | 01:13 |
| Klinda | it just tells the other virus to replicate and do damage? | 01:13 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/22221751.2021.2023329 | 01:14 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.tandfonline.com: Full article: SARS-CoV-2 Omicron variant shows less efficient replication and fusion activity when compared with Delta variant in TMPRSS2-expressed cells | 01:14 |
| Klinda | so why someone develop a lung disease and some like me not? they fight it before it happens? | 01:16 |
| de-facto | thats a very good question, if people would know a method to predict the disease trajectory prior to infection (or at very early stage) it would allow to focus healthcare efforts to prevent those by starting treatment earlier | 01:17 |
| de-facto | its very complex, basically a runaway reaction by the immune system, a storm of cytokines (immune cells giving alarm signals) and the immune system going berserk over it | 01:18 |
| LjL | wut? https://www-punto--informatico-it.translate.goog/green-pass-senza-scadenza-per-chi-ha-dose-booster/?_x_tr_sl=it&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=it&_x_tr_pto=wapp the booster dose green pass is to be valid for only 6 months starting February 1st, except they realized that'll leave a ton of people pass-less, and now they're thinking of making it have no expiry instead? O.o Do they study the rules they're making at all? | 01:18 |
| gry | who is 'they' in this context? | 01:19 |
| Klinda | yes I heard that de-facto, it's an abnormal response of the immune system which targets also the "good" tissues, but it's the only way that can cause the pneumonia ? | 01:20 |
| LjL | gry, the italian government | 01:21 |
| Klinda | sei italiano LjL? | 01:21 |
| LjL | Klinda, sì | 01:21 |
| Klinda | anche io ahahah | 01:21 |
| gry | LjL, this is one of the issues I have with '95% vaccinated' stats: some of them were vaccinated a year ago, and are not that immune. | 01:22 |
| LjL | gry, well i can tell you how many have 3 doses here, but it's not something you'll find on international trackers | 01:22 |
| LjL | though i can't really tell you how many had it a given amount of time ago | 01:22 |
| gry | correct | 01:22 |
| LjL | unless i process the CSV / Excel sheets that... uhm... i think i could, in theory | 01:22 |
| LjL | i think the EU collects amount of vaccinated people per country per day | 01:23 |
| LjL | and we saw spreadsheets of those before, although i don't remember where exactly one can get them | 01:23 |
| LjL | but from those it should be possible to compute how much of the population has been vaccinated less than n months ago | 01:23 |
| LjL | may get a bit hairy if it doesn't say which dose it is, and you're looking back at a longer time ago | 01:24 |
| LjL | (i.e. you can't know if you're counting someone twice or thrice) | 01:24 |
| LjL | anyway, this is for the EU, i don't know if other places release similar data | 01:24 |
| Klinda | mostly here in Italy I think a lot will bypass the third dose because they took it before they get the booster, there are two lines of toughts: one is to vaccinate after 6 months you took it, which is the official statment and another tought is to boost more the response with an earlier dose after you get infected by the virus | 01:24 |
| LjL | the line of thought that you should get the virus first is asinine... | 01:25 |
| Klinda | in israel they say the 4 dose is useless | 01:25 |
| LjL | who says that? | 01:25 |
| gry | Oh, yeah, fall off a roof first and then get a helmet. Brilliant. | 01:26 |
| Klinda | https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/18/world/middleeast/omicron-fourth-shot-israel.html | 01:27 |
| Klinda | like there | 01:27 |
| LjL | i don't know if the 4th dose is useless. i expect that the 3rd dose will wane pretty fast, like the other two, at which point a 4th will be useful - but by now, the WHO, the ECDC and even Pfizer are saying that we can't realistically (and safely) vaccinate everyone every 4-5 months, so at some point it either has to stop, or we need different vaccines | 01:27 |
| Klinda | yes in the end they have to do the updated vaccine | 01:28 |
| Klinda | also I was reading that sollicitate the immune systems a lot is not good too, don't know where | 01:29 |
| LjL | ugh, i like how instead of linking me directly to the study, the NYT tries to create a jungle of links to itself, only the first of which is not paywalled -.- | 01:29 |
| LjL | Klinda, i believe someone from the ECDC cautioned against that | 01:30 |
| Klinda | true LjL but I was reading it in italian so I find some links on google | 01:31 |
| Klinda | btw the official line now in Italy is that if you took covid now, you wait 6 months for the booster | 01:32 |
| LjL | well, anyway i thought it was the ECDC but i'm not finding it in the channel logs | 01:32 |
| Klinda | I think in USA they advise to take the booster early | 01:32 |
| LjL | 3 months is usually the minimum recommended | 01:33 |
| LjL | but i don't know if people are trying to determine what gives them the best protection, or the longest green pass validity | 01:33 |
| Klinda | xD | 01:33 |
| LjL | if they make "boosted" green pass have no expiry, that should solve the latter issue | 01:33 |
| Klinda | yes pepole also don't want to inject every 6 months | 01:34 |
| Klinda | probably the best hope is to have an updated vaccine | 01:35 |
| LjL | Klinda, i found the one i remember reading, it was from the EMA, not the ECDC, but also it's just one person, i'm not sure it's the EMA's *official* position: https://fortune.com/2022/01/12/ema-who-covid-fourth-boosters-pfizer-flu-endemic/ | 01:36 |
| LjL | (not sure they'd publish their official position on Fortune...) | 01:36 |
| * de-facto made a nice hot Green Tea from Sencha and sliced Ginger, always leaves it in the water and pours it over a sieve in his mug | 01:36 | |
| LjL | well, he's the Head of Vaccine Strategy apparently so not entirely random | 01:37 |
| Klinda | did you take covid LjL? | 01:39 |
| LjL | no | 01:39 |
| LjL | but i did take the booster :P | 01:41 |
| Klinda | in the 14 th I had to do it | 01:42 |
| Klinda | but on 10 th tested positive | 01:42 |
| Klinda | xD | 01:42 |
| Klinda | we also stayed at home on new year | 01:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: Europe's drug regulator joins WHO in pushback against excessive COVID boosters: Type Web Page URL https://fortune.com/2022/01/12/ema-who-covid-fourth-boosters-pfizer-flu-endemic/ Accessed 2022-01-25 00:41:19 Language en Abstract More and more influential figures are talking about [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/EG939HJ7 | 01:52 |
| `St0ner | Dr. Kieran Moore, chief medical officer of health in Ontario, said 30 days is “the typical recommendation” for how long people should wait to get boosted after an infection. <- anyone recall any recent research on the science of how long to wait after an infection before getting a booster that yields maximum titers of immunity? | 01:53 |
| Klinda | btw LjL400 deaths each day are a lot | 01:55 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "The vaccination programme needs to reach children as well as unvaccinated and partially vaccinated adults to reduce SARS-CoV-2 transmission and associated disruptions to work and education." thelancet.com/journals/lanre… @LancetRespirMed pic.twitter.com/uMo2X39vZB → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1485778406033686528 | 02:02 |
| `St0ner | interesting preprint article at https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.30.21268565v1 | 02:09 |
| `St0ner | "We included 3,442 Omicron-positive cases, 9,201 Delta-positive cases, and 471,545 test-negative controls. Receipt of 2 doses of COVID-19 vaccines was not protective against Omicron. A third dose provides some protection in the immediate term, 37% (95%CI, 19-50%) ≥7 days after receiving an mRNA vaccine for the third dose." | 02:10 |
| LjL | Klinda, they are a lot, yes, i'm not sure why anyone is confused about "the pandemic being over" | 02:23 |
| LjL | it's like a medium-sized earthquake every day, for months | 02:24 |
| Klinda | I think now they act like who die, die, who not die well btw LjL | 02:24 |
| LjL | chi muore muore chi vive vive e chi s'è visto s'è visto | 02:25 |
| Klinda | esatto | 02:25 |
| LjL | can understand being tired of all this | 02:25 |
| Klinda | se vedi sulla rai ed in queste trasmissioni stanno cambiando approccio, tipo che è finita | 02:25 |
| Klinda | ma pure il medico è LjL alla fine ha detto, non è nulla di che, questa attacca solo le parti superiori e via | 02:26 |
| LjL | let's keep it in english so everyone understands, i just said that one thing in italian because it doesn't work in english | 02:27 |
| LjL | the thing is, yes, i've noticed they've changed approach - not just in italy | 02:27 |
| LjL | but maybe they just don't know what more to do, they've painted themselves in a corner | 02:27 |
| LjL | vaccines do what they do, the virus will not go away, we can help with masks and so on but only to a point... so, now? | 02:28 |
| LjL | i think we should have tried to make the virus *go away* for good | 02:28 |
| LjL | but it's late now, now it won't | 02:28 |
| Klinda | just hope we don't get more deadly variants that's it | 02:28 |
| LjL | we should have tried two years ago | 02:28 |
| LjL | we'll get more variants, that's for sure | 02:28 |
| LjL | fingers crossed they're not more deadly, but the ones spilling back from animals will at least be an issue i suspect | 02:29 |
| `St0ner | so about the preprint i linked above, i am living example that confirms their findings that 2 vaccine doses has 0% effectiveness against omicron | 02:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): The good US news today is that Covid hospitalizations have come down to ~150,000 from their recent peak of 159,000 (21 Jan) → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1485784712253558788 | 02:31 |
| Tuvix | `St0ner: That's not now statistics works though. More comprehensive studies do indeed show severely reduced effectiveness at preventing *infection* with 2 doses, but it's not zero, and you also can't know how much worse it would have been with 0 or 1 doses. | 02:32 |
| `St0ner | that study didnt seem to be testing for the immune response after omicron infection, seems like they were just talking about being infected vs not. i'm sure you know some years of flu vaccine have a negative VE, which doesnt mean getting the vaccine will give you the flu.. | 02:34 |
| Tuvix | Right, typically that has more to do, if within the margin of error, of additional variables, such as taking increased risk due to percieved increase in protection. | 02:35 |
| Klinda | is not worth also show the age of the pepole studied? | 02:37 |
| Tuvix | Some studies break that down; it depends on what the focus is | 02:38 |
| Tuvix | You can explore some of the impact of vaccination and its protection against death between various age-groups here if you'd like to dig into that in an accessible form: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination | 02:39 |
| Klinda | what is VE? | 02:39 |
| Tuvix | Vaccine Effictiveness, a measure at how well the vaccines protects aginst an outcome. For instance, death, hospitalization, or infection. | 02:40 |
| Klinda | In contrast, receipt of 2 doses of COVID-19 vaccines was not protective against Omicron infection at any point in time, and VE was –38% (95I, –61%, –18%) 120-179 days and –42% (95I, –69%, –19%) 180-239 days after the second dose. VE against Omicron was 37% (95I, 19-50%) ≥7 days after receiving an mRNA vaccine for the third dose. | 02:40 |
| Tuvix | And de-facto quoted another study with different results. | 02:41 |
| Tuvix | Much of this has temporal factors too, which you haven't seemed to consider, and which likely has a very significant impact; other studies in fact have shown just that, but again, it's not a lack of proteciton. Also, if you mean just infection then, obviously, the VE will be lower than against the metrics that arguably matter a lot more: hospitalization and death. | 02:42 |
| Klinda | you need to take the average of all the studies done gh | 02:43 |
| Tuvix | No, that's also not how science works. | 02:44 |
| Tuvix | Studies can have differnet methods, limitations, access to information, flaws, or other factors that mean they can each have useful things when compared to another. | 02:44 |
| Klinda | and how was decided that the booster was needed ? | 02:44 |
| Tuvix | Critical reading and an understanding of the subject matter are required to evaluate that. | 02:44 |
| Tuvix | Data, trials, etc. In a word: science. | 02:45 |
| Tuvix | You seem to want a simple, single answer for many of your inquiries. The real world does not work like that, as much as we'd like it to at times. | 02:45 |
| Klinda | sure you need 10 years to have an opinion I think | 02:48 |
| Klinda | that you study these sort of stuffs | 02:48 |
| Klinda | mine are just intuitions xD | 02:48 |
| Tuvix | There's something between no knowledge of a field and a decade of dedicated study. Effectively everyone here is neither of those 2 things. | 02:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Neil Young Demands Spotify Remove His Music Over 'False Information About Vaccines' → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sc1l0k/neil_young_demands_spotify_remove_his_music_over/ | 02:50 |
| de-facto | you have to be clear on the endpoint when talking about a vaccine efficacy (VE) | 02:54 |
| de-facto | is it comparing for asymptomatic infections? symptomatic infections? severe progressions? long covid? hospitalizations? ICU admissions? death? | 02:55 |
| de-facto | while the protection for individual damage (severe progressions, long covid, hospitalizations, ICU admissions and death) are quite good (induced by an enduring T-cell response that is not evaded by variants like Omicron) the protection against infection very much depends on the overlap of the antibodies produced (by B-cells) and the currently circulating wild type of the pathogen (in terms of antibody affinity) | 02:58 |
| de-facto | the current vaccines contain a version of the s-protein that is derived from the original Wuhan-Hu-1 sequence (the very first sequence made from SARS-CoV-2 in early 2020) | 02:59 |
| de-facto | so that means the body raises an immune reaction against exactly that variant of the s-protein, resulting in antibodies optimized to fit on the surface of Wuhan-Hu-1 spikes | 02:59 |
| de-facto | that are the B-cells producing the antibodies and the vaccine efficacy is derived on how well those antibodies fit on the surface of the currently circulating variant of SARS-CoV-2 s-protein and on how long ago the vaccination was done (as antibody levels contract over time) | 03:02 |
| de-facto | that results in a vaccine efficacy depending directly on how different the circulating wild type is compared to the vaccine variant | 03:02 |
| de-facto | then there are the T-cells, they remember much smaller parts of the s-protein (imagine tiny shreds of it) hence much more of such so called T-cell epitopes are derived from raising a T-cell immune response against the s-protein | 03:04 |
| de-facto | since there are many more T-cell epitopes than B-cell epitopes it would also require a lot more changes to the s-protein to evade the T-cell epitopes compared to the B-cell epitopes | 03:06 |
| de-facto | example: compared to Wuhan-Hu-1 Omicron changed the surface of its s-protein a lot more than e.g. Alpha or Delta, resulting in evading the affinity of the antibodies on its surface that would fit very well with Wuhan-Hu-1, quite well with Alpha, a bit less well with Delta etc | 03:07 |
| de-facto | but since about 80%-85% of the T-cell epitopes are still conserved for Omicron it can not evade the T-cell immunity, and that is the one that protects from severe progressions and hospitalizations etc | 03:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): If you haven't heard, FDA approved molnupiravir for COVID19. I've been concerned it could create highly mutated SARSCoV2 and make new enhanced viruses more likely. Today a new study supports the idea that letting viruses sample multiple mutations is [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1485794533975597064 | 03:09 |
| de-facto | so in conclusion the current vaccines protect not so well against infection (because Omicron evaded the B-cell epitopes on the surface) but they protect very well against severe progressions and hospitalizations (because Omicron did not evade the T-cell epitopes) | 03:09 |
| Klinda | understand | 03:10 |
| de-facto | meaning vaccination is a very good protection for the person that receives it (from those severe progression trajectories and probably also things like those long-COVID scenarios) but it does not protect so well from infection and becoming infectious to others | 03:10 |
| de-facto | in short VE is high for severe progressions and low for infections | 03:11 |
| Juerd | VE against infection is high the first months after vaccination, which also increases VE against symptomatic and severe disease, as those obviously depend on infection. | 03:12 |
| Juerd | As VE against infection wanes, so will the rest. The VE against severe disease remains high, but will end up measurably lower than shortly after the last shot. | 03:13 |
| de-facto | yes VE against infection is high at the peak of the antibody concentration | 03:13 |
| de-facto | imagine a normal distribution around the theoretical maximum of antibody affinity against the vaccine antigen (Wuhan-Hu-1 s-protein) | 03:13 |
| Klinda | after some months you will lose some protection ? | 03:13 |
| Juerd | For those with underlying conditions that exacerbate outcomes, repeated boosters might remain necessary until antivirals are widely available. | 03:14 |
| de-facto | this normal distribution also got side arms (where affinity to the vaccine antigen is comparably lower, but possibly may be higher against a currently circulating mutant with a theoretical maximum of AB affinity at another point int hat landshape) | 03:14 |
| Juerd | Klinda: Yes, as the antibody levels wane, the chance of getting infected increases again. This is also why you can get many diseases, including the flu and the common cold, multiple times in a life time. But if you have prior immunity, that will kick in and make you clear the infection faster. That helps reduce spread and the chance of progressing to severe disease. | 03:15 |
| de-facto | meaning depending on how broad that normal distribution is (in the landshape of affinity to different antigenic surfaces) and on how high the current level of that normal distribution is (including its side arms) it may also cover the necessary area where the current circulating variant got its maximum affinity | 03:16 |
| de-facto | meaning in the peak of vaccination the (less frequent) antibodies may happen to just also fit on the curernt wild type, but their concentration will not be high long enough to protect for as long time as protection would last against infection with a variant that is directly on spot of that affinity normal distribution derived from vaccination | 03:18 |
| de-facto | think of it like shooting with a shotgun, it got many bullets, most hit in the center but some also hit a bit off center | 03:18 |
| de-facto | so if the target (the currently circulating pathogen) is right in the center (spot on) it will receive the highest amount of shotgun shreds (antibodies that bind to its surface and neutralize it), but if a target is a bit off center it only will get hit by few shotgun shreds | 03:20 |
| de-facto | yet if the immune system "re-aims" by developing new generations of antibodies that fit better to the current infection it may hit it spot on again (with an even broader spread of shreds) | 03:21 |
| Klinda | understand | 03:21 |
| Klinda | so in the end the third dose is a booster fo the t-cells only ? | 03:22 |
| de-facto | not necessarily, it raises up the amount of antibodies (hence also the side arms of the distribution) and it als may broaden the antibody variety a bit | 03:24 |
| de-facto | so the full width half maximum may increase as well as absolute maximum | 03:25 |
| de-facto | but the best probably would be to entertain the immune system with another variant of the antigen, or even with a full spectrum of it | 03:25 |
| Klinda | what's the difference taking the covid and get a natural response vs taking the vaccine? is there some difference ? | 03:26 |
| de-facto | i think it would be beneficial to include several versions of the antigenic surfaces into a vaccine so that the immune system would be able to learn how to neutralize all variants of surface features | 03:26 |
| de-facto | oh there are a lot of differences | 03:26 |
| de-facto | it may be a bit like having the experience to win a war compared to winning a very realistic exercise mimicking the most efficient way to eliminate the enemy | 03:28 |
| Klinda | yes I understand that, but the natural response with or without the vaccine, does the same thing in terms of "learning" ? | 03:31 |
| de-facto | no i think the combination of both results in the most competent immune system | 03:32 |
| de-facto | e.g. fighting off the real pathogen but also learning to focus on the s-protein (motivated by the response to the vaccination) | 03:33 |
| de-facto | there were some papers showing that vaccination + infection results in the most robust immune responses, superior to both, immunity from only infection but also to immunity by only vaccination | 03:34 |
| de-facto | so preparing the immune system to go somewhat trained and competent into the battle to win the war against contamination and infection with the wild type pathogen may be a good idea | 03:35 |
| Klinda | ahaha | 03:35 |
| de-facto | noone would send untrained troops into a war | 03:35 |
| Klinda | but in the end is better to not take it in the end | 03:35 |
| de-facto | its always a probability game, there is no certainty | 03:36 |
| de-facto | e.g. those vaccine efficacy numbers are derived from comparing very big groups of people | 03:36 |
| Klinda | yes there are also pepole with the booster that can die anyway | 03:37 |
| de-facto | that means that they represent the probability for some endpoint for given conditions, but they can not predict the exact future for individual cases | 03:37 |
| Klinda | or also there are pepole who smoke and live more than you that you don't smoke | 03:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): At least, it seems unwise to let MOV do the mutagenesis in people and hope nothing bad happens, especially when MOV is of such questionable efficacy. Better for the patients, and safer for everyone, to increase the supply of vaccines, use drugs rarely, [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1485802088420442114 | 03:38 |
| de-facto | yeah its only about probabilities | 03:39 |
| Malvolio | .title https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/free-n95-masks-n1287938 | 03:43 |
| Brainstorm | Malvolio: From www.nbcnews.com: Free N95 masks arriving at pharmacies and stores around the country | 03:43 |
| Malvolio | (max 3 per customer) | 03:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): That is, vaccines are cheaper, prevent illness to begin with, and prevent hospitalization at 90% efficacy, not the 30% of molnupiravir (and note MOV is really only for unvaccinated and not previously immune, so if you're vaccinated you don't need it). [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1485803904826630144 | 03:48 |
| Klinda | now I have to go, bye bye thanks for the discussion :) | 03:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Straight talk on a Covid endemic state, new @naturenature.com/articles/d4158…by @ArisKatzourakis"There is a widespread, rosy misconception that viruses evolve over time to become more benign." pic.twitter.com/m5iVumSUVS → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1485809832930144258 | 04:07 |
| LjL | `St0ner, Tuvix: actually i didn't know there had been years of "negative efficacy" flu vaccines. that's interesting. yes you could say people will take more risks, and i get that with covid, but... with flu? if i get a flu vaccine it's just for additional safety, not really for doing things i wouldn't otherwise do | 04:17 |
| LjL | i guess i may not be representative of everyone else | 04:17 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: ‘Justice and equity’: Dozens of students walk out of SFU classrooms over COVID-19 risk - BC → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sc4ag6/justice_and_equity_dozens_of_students_walk_out_of/ | 05:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): nCoV: WHO chief warns conditions ripe for more COVID-19 variants | 24JAN22 → https://old.reddit.com/r/nCoV/comments/sc5gn1/who_chief_warns_conditions_ripe_for_more_covid19/ | 06:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from MedicineNet: (news): FDA May Limit Use of Two COVID Antibody Treatments → http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp | 07:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | January 25, 2022: Please refer to our Wiki for more information on COVID-19 and our sub. You can find answers to frequently asked questions in our FAQ , where there is valuable information such as our: → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/sc8jfs/daily_discussion_thread_january_25_2022/ | 09:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: UN data reveals ‘nearly insurmountable’ scale of lost schooling due to Covid → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sc8kux/un_data_reveals_nearly_insurmountable_scale_of/ | 09:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Eric Clapton Claims People Who Receive COVID-19 Vaccines Are Under 'Mass Hypnosis' → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sc90u2/eric_clapton_claims_people_who_receive_covid19/ | 10:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Health: It’s too early to tell whether CBD helps against Covid-19 — but researchers worry that won’t stop CBD makers → https://www.statnews.com/2022/01/25/too-early-to-say-cbd-against-covid-19/ | 10:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Thousands needed to try a new Covid antiviral treatment: A UK study aims to find out who will benefit most from a pill designed to treat Covid-19. → https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-60117313 | 11:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: Differences in environmental stability among SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern: Omicron has higher stability → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/sca6sv/differences_in_environmental_stability_among/ | 11:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: A post-covid economy for health: from the great reset to build back differently: The global economy was still struggling with the fallout of the 2008 financial crisis when the covid-19 pandemic hit, collapsing supply chains and depressing economic activities worldwide. Almost... → http://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj-2021-068126.short | 11:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: UK police to investigate No 10 lockdown parties → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/scankn/uk_police_to_investigate_no_10_lockdown_parties/ | 11:42 |
| xx | ^ don't they have political immunity? | 11:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: John Roberts (@john_actuary): Some debate as to how well the 28 day figure represents COVID deaths in an Omicron world. Here's the latest comparison with ONS, up to 14th Jan.Note that even once published, ONS has a greater lag, so we will see the recent curve push up higher in coming [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/john_actuary/status/1485925537134661637 | 11:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from ECDC: ECDC: Data on the daily number of new reported COVID-19 cases and deaths by EU/EEA country → https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/data-daily-new-cases-covid-19-eueea-country | 12:21 |
| MerlinMp[m] | <xx> "^ don't they have political..." <- Its much easier to have natural immunity to covid than to political enemies | 12:41 |
| Dredd | <xx> "^ don't they have political..." <- Probably but that doesn't mean they can't be fined in a non-criminal case? | 12:56 |
| Dredd | Oh dear, de-facto you won't like https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-60117313 ... | 12:57 |
| Dredd | LjL either | 12:57 |
| porcelain | I noticed that there are many people here that know specifics about covid. Can anyone answer if there's real reason for saying that the vaccine can lead to immunodeficiency or is this a hoax? | 13:05 |
| Dredd | As far as I know there isn't any evidence of that | 13:07 |
| dTal | I've never even heard of that one | 13:08 |
| porcelain | I've seen that yesterday | 13:09 |
| dTal | as far as I know, the nearest thing to that that's even plausible is - some scientists believe it's theoretically possible for a vaccine (or prior infection) to worsen the progression of a later infection with a related disease, by making the immune system think it's fighting one thing when really it's fighting another. This is called "original antigenic sin" and it's controversial | 13:10 |
| dTal | but generalized immunodeficiency from a vaccine, that's not a thing | 13:12 |
| porcelain | The "original antigenic sin" is the one that doctor malone talks about it, isnt it? | 13:14 |
| Dredd | Yeah the original antigenic sin thing is a bit silly because we'd be in the same boat with natural immunity just more initial worse cases than with vaccines | 13:14 |
| Dredd | Plus that isn't how the immune system works ha ha | 13:14 |
| Dredd | Hence why third jabs actually help with omicron despite the jab not being omicron targeting | 13:15 |
| Dredd | The immune system doesn't get laser focused on one form of the antigen to detriment of generalisation as original antigenic sin requires | 13:15 |
| Dredd | Plus, this I'm personally sceptical that it is named so biblicaly 😛 | 13:16 |
| Dredd | That's not a good reason to discount it mind you, just a personal observation | 13:16 |
| porcelain | Yes there is a tendency for ckrackpots to give pretty names | 13:17 |
| porcelain | I don't know nothing about medicine, so i don't really know where original antigenic sin lies on the range of complete bs to actual science | 13:18 |
| xx | saying 'sin' should already let you know it's not science | 13:19 |
| porcelain | yes | 13:19 |
| porcelain | But I heard on joe rogan he has many published papers, and participated on mrna vaccine. does that count? Does it give any credibility? | 13:20 |
| xx | if something is on joe rogan, it's not credible | 13:20 |
| porcelain | Damn, that's pretty harsh | 13:21 |
| Dredd | porcelain: it's generally true to someone "in the know" watching it though and is partly why Joe Rogan can cause a bunch of harm sometimes | 13:30 |
| Dredd | The Malone guy appears to have sadly gone off the deep end at some point | 13:30 |
| Dredd | He was involved in some of the early work that leads us to the mRNA vaccine techniques used today | 13:31 |
| Dredd | Specifically in the update of lipid nanoparticles by cells iirc | 13:31 |
| Dredd | s/update/uptake/ | 13:31 |
| Dredd | So were many other scientists though, and some a lot more extensively | 13:31 |
| Dredd | Who have come out publicly with their opinion on Malone's views and regret that he has become what he has | 13:31 |
| Dredd | He is not "the father of mRNA" as he is oft described - that's factually bollocks on a lot of levels | 13:32 |
| porcelain | But i think he also said that on the show, but i might be wrong | 13:33 |
| Dredd | Said what specifically? | 13:34 |
| porcelain | Has he made any conceptual mistakes on what he wrote and writes, like mistakes that a undergrad wouldn't make? | 13:34 |
| Dredd | Malone has no actual data | 13:34 |
| porcelain | said that he wasn't the founder of mrna technology | 13:34 |
| Dredd | The only evidence is that Malone has said it, basically | 13:35 |
| Dredd | If he's being more accurate in how Malone is being represented then that is good, previously he was fomenting a bunch of bs as he usually does | 13:35 |
| porcelain | sorry if im taking too much of your time. He has no actual data means he doesn't used no data at all or that his data is flawed (eg.: used a small number of samples, only one type of group)? | 13:38 |
| porcelain | Im not trying to defend the guy or argue with you, just to understand what you mean | 13:42 |
| dTal | I wouldn't discount "original antigenic sin" on the basis of the name alone, after all scientists named the beginning of the universe "The Big Bang" | 13:44 |
| dTal | nor would I be confident saying it's a not a thing that can *ever* happen, given how complex the immune system is | 13:45 |
| dTal | but so far, evidence for it is weak | 13:45 |
| dTal | and in the specific case of covid, evidence for our current crop of vaccines being *massively* helpful is very strong | 13:46 |
| Dredd | It's more that it's not something to worry about most likely | 13:47 |
| dTal | and I've heard of that Malone guy, and he's a grade A crank | 13:47 |
| Dredd | porcelain: I dunno specifically off the top of my head - I remember looking into it and not finding anything compelling | 13:47 |
| dTal | I remember we were looking at some data a few weeks ago which, on the surface, seemed to lend support to the idea | 13:49 |
| Dredd | There is no evidence at all for his belief that the mRNA vaccines will start killing people in years time. The mechanism of their action is actually very simple to understand and largely no different than the traditional viral vector vaccines aside from the vector | 13:49 |
| Dredd | That's what I recall myself | 13:49 |
| dTal | something about jabbed people being more likely to be infected, during a certain time window after being jabbed | 13:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Science: science: Omicron intermediate host was found to originated from mice. This easy of transfer from animals to humans and vice versa make it difficult to stop. → https://old.reddit.com/r/science/comments/scc40i/omicron_intermediate_host_was_found_to_originated/ | 13:49 |
| dTal | but upon closer inspection, it fell apart | 13:50 |
| dTal | a lot of effects like that are fairly easy to account for with the simple observation that vaccinated people are less careful | 13:50 |
| dTal | "vaxed and relaxed", innit | 13:51 |
| porcelain | got it | 13:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Authors’ reply to Chiolero, Bannon, and Dickinson: We thank the respondents for their comments.1234 Chiolero suggests that dashboards will help end the pandemic, but we think it’s the reverse: relentless media attention on covid statistics—that is,... → http://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o170.short | 14:09 |
| MerlinMp[m] | Im curious about another impact - in alergy treatment patient is exposed to repeating doses of alergen to supress immunoresponse. Is there any relevant difference between boosters and alergy treatment? | 14:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Dear CDC,If you want to be "up-to-date" this is what the data says for reducing infection, transmission, severe disease, hospitalization and death.Exceptions: Prior Covid and J&J vaccine (+ 1 shot),Immunocompromised may need an additional shot twitter.com/EricTopol/stat… → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1485972208547549186 | 14:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "Omicronized" verbTo rise from a near zero baseline to an unprecedented level of new cases/capita globally, due to a hyper-transmissible virus, as assessed with aggressive testing pic.twitter.com/HiBMLVnavl → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1485976802669391872 | 15:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Josiah 'So Mild' Grindrod (@JT_Grindrod): Have we added or lost capacity since the start of the pandemic, anybody know? pic.twitter.com/K6W5S51H6S → https://twitter.com/JT_Grindrod/status/1485982340140527623 | 15:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): Endemicity of SARS-CoV-2 does NOT mean it is harmless! It is a state we have widespread immunity, but will be regularly infected in waves. Those vulnerable will get severely ill. Malaria is an appropriate example.Well explained by @ArisKatzourakisnature.com/articles/d4158… → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1485987627077709826 | 15:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Alex Gaggio ️ (@AlexGaggio): @JT_Grindrod @normdeviate @BillHanage Which is why no country sees zero Covid as a long term solution → https://twitter.com/AlexGaggio/status/1485988015344336903 | 16:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): This does NOT mean that endemic SARS-CoV-2 will remain dangerous. Immune pressure to maintain transmission will do its work and tropism to the URT as well as more stealth-like infections is, looking at other HCoV evolution, a likely option. Immunity will protect [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1485992545742114821 | 16:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): nCoV: NY State Supreme Court judge strikes down governor's mask mandate | 25JAN22 → https://old.reddit.com/r/nCoV/comments/scfyx8/ny_state_supreme_court_judge_strikes_down/ | 16:20 |
| porcelain | hey i made a server on discord to discuss covid and other current political topics. Im not making any money out of it. Would i get a ban for sending the link, i dont know the rules? | 16:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): Respiratory tract coronaviruses are under pressure to spread fast and cause little antibody responses to reinfect regularly; This doesn't compare with measles, rotavirus, or HCV, which are antigenically stable and cause viraemia. → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1486001754101755915 | 16:50 |
| Dredd | porcelain: I don't really know. LjL is the person to ask and he'll probably be around in a couple hours. This IRC channel is already bridged into the matrix room #covid-19:matrix.org atm | 16:52 |
| xx | some would claim that discord is worse than covid... | 16:52 |
| porcelain | xx why? | 16:55 |
| Dredd | They say that if you look into a mirror and say his name three times, LjL will appear | 16:56 |
| porcelain | Imma try that right now and see if it works | 16:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): 2 new reports on myocarditis with Covid and vaccinesHong Kong review of 160 casesRisk of Pfizer 0.6/100,000 doses vs much higher risk of Covid myocarditis @AnnalsofIMacpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M2…@CDCgov @JAMA_current jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/… [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486006575672090625 | 17:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Just published @SciImmunology 2 paths to Covid "super immunity"—Prior Covid and a vaccine dose—Breakthrough vaccine infectionscience.org/doi/10.1126/sc…@TheTafesseLab @OHSUSOM (both superior to but missing is a comparison with 3rd dose vaccine) pic.twitter.com/OBe6C9iRcx → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486009604697825282 | 17:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): As I predicted, Omicron booster by March was a fictiontwitter.com/matthewherper/… → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1486012262678614017 | 17:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): First post of this thread, Figure label correction by authors (Moderna, panel B, not Pfizer in both panels)And full discussion of these findingserictopol.substack.com/p/where-do-we-… pic.twitter.com/2VoMfXY5bq → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486014119169826823 | 17:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Omicron case descents patterns@OurWorldInData Stuttering vs Fairly rapid Discussed further erictopol.substack.com/p/where-do-we-… pic.twitter.com/4VS51rfsl9 → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486018737203417090 | 17:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): You might think June data on an Omicron booster would allow regulators time to approve it before a fall surge. However, absent proactive guidance from FDA and CDC, expect confusion as to whether we'd continue to offer both vaccine types, and people [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1486021850631000064 | 18:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): For the record, here's Pfizer's statement that an Omicron booster would be ready by March. They didn't say ready for trials, but ready period. That means ready for everyone.In case it wasn't clear, this thread is voicing skepticism of that [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1486024799558066181 | 18:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): My harping on Pfizer above is more about making unrealistic promises. In reality it would be hard to go faster than they're doing now, as they would need to scale up first so they can test with the same quality product as would be the actual vaccine. → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1486029296867049475 | 18:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): The real delays will be regulatory and logistical. You might think June data allows regulators time to approve it before a fall surge. However, absent a proactive plan, expect confusion on whether to keep offering both vaccine types, and people arguing [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1486029298913853440 | 18:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): We could stock both Omicron and original everywhere preemptively then use the one that works better for whatever appears.But a Delta+Omicron combo booster would have covered >90% of existing origins for the next strain. It would be better than the [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1486029300444717057 | 18:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: EU eases COVID-19 travel rules within the bloc for fully vaccinated: (HealthDay)—European Union residents should be able to move freely between the 27 member nations if they've been vaccinated in the past nine months or have recently recovered from coronavirus infection, bloc [... want %more?] → https://medicalxpress.com/news/2022-01-eu-eases-covid-bloc-fully.html | 19:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): New @CDCgov report on Omicron's impact on Emergency Room and Hospitalizations cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/7… @CDCMMWR pic.twitter.com/CHAdUfhuh0 → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486037560056975362 | 19:17 |
| LjL | porcelain, i'm also not a fan of Discord (proprietary protocol, proprietary servers, admin acting quite arbitrarily), but if you mention your Discord server here once without spamming it, in case someone here does like Discord, i'd say go ahead | 19:24 |
| porcelain | I won't spam, thank you. Here's the link in case anyone wants to join https://discord.gg/vr5qs4wHAa | 19:28 |
| porcelain | It's a server for discussing any topic of the current situation without censorship | 19:29 |
| xx | what does your discord "server" offer compared to this IRC(matrix) channel? | 19:34 |
| xx | usually I'm not a fan of having people spread over lots of services, such that it ends up being just a couple people on each | 19:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): This US pandemic stress test on health care professionals comes in the wake of excellent piecesby @meganranney @washingtonpost washingtonpost.com/outlook/2022/0…andby @AndrewJacobsNYT nytimes.com/2022/01/23/hea… pic.twitter.com/ITje0yFZ0p → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486042732745224198 | 19:36 |
| porcelain | Its not that it's better than IRC, but people usually don't go to IRC servers | 19:37 |
| porcelain | Im trying to build an alternative in relation to other social media (twitter, instagram, reddit, etc) due to censorship | 19:39 |
| xx | well, you're here, and are advertising to people who already are on IRC :) | 19:39 |
| xx | I'm not dissing your thing, just wondering what the point is | 19:40 |
| porcelain | Yes but im hoping that people on irc that use other social media to go to the server. The bigger the better | 19:40 |
| porcelain | And reddit and twitter shadowbanned me, so i only have this | 19:41 |
| porcelain | I get it, i know you arent | 19:41 |
| xx | discord shadowbans too, most likely | 19:41 |
| xx | left a sour taste in my mouth after https://github.com/Bios-Marcel/cordless#i-am-closing-down-the-cordless-project | 19:41 |
| porcelain | what's this? | 19:42 |
| xx | it's discord trying to silence the little guy | 19:42 |
| xx | compared to IRC/matrix/email where the client doesn't matter | 19:43 |
| xx | I'd much rather people move onto open solutions than closed stuff like discord | 19:44 |
| Tuvix | The main concern people here should be taking away from this is that your questions here don't bode great confidence for an accurate discussion on "your server" elsewhere. Often "without censorship" is an implicit understanding that conclusions that are not accepted by the greater medical community are welcome in such places. | 19:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): Hmm..... to be convinced this is required for all. It may be a good idea for the vulnerable prior to the autumn/winter season, with Omicron infection/vaccine combi this may not be required for most others. ft.com/content/8fa9fb… → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1486046598719492096 | 19:46 |
| porcelain | Actually the idea is that by answearing people, instead of just shadowbanning them, people won't make conspiracies | 19:47 |
| Tuvix | And some here have not done so, continuing to "make conspiracies" as you put it until they were removed. | 19:47 |
| Tuvix | We call this, "proof by counter-example" -- your logic is flawed becuase, despite being answered, some here have continued to intentionally tout debunked conspriacy theories despite having weeks of dialog to accurate, correct information. And then the next day the same thing happens again. | 19:48 |
| minth_ | I think it's too late for that, people have had 2 years to find answers if they wanted to | 19:48 |
| Tuvix | It's a nice idea; it just doesn't work in practice. | 19:48 |
| Tuvix | Not everyone is open to the scientific method, and some prefer the "easy answer" where things are concrete, black & white, and you have someone you can blame for all your trouble. | 19:49 |
| Tuvix | The real world is not any of those things. | 19:49 |
| lastshell | iluminaty always win :p just kidding | 19:56 |
| lastshell | im not wearing my tinfoil hat | 19:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Meaghan Kall (@kallmemeg): ANNOUNCEMENT: Re-infections coming to Dashboard on Monday! Historical back series (by specimen date) will be revised Deaths following re-infection will be added➡️ Follow @IsaacATFlorence for a mega-thread when we go [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/kallmemeg/status/1486046599323308037 | 19:56 |
| xx | lastshell: make sure you haven't lost your hat, there'll be an aluminum shortage soon | 19:57 |
| LjL | oh wow, the UK dashboard is adding re-infections, that should be interesting | 20:00 |
| Tuvix | I wonder what a realistic factor for the inevitable under-count that has from people who have had multiple infections that may have been mild, or even just not severe enough to land people in the hospital. | 20:01 |
| ublx | %title https://apnews.com/article/technology-new-zealand-volcanic-eruptions-tonga-834d0889dece3aab1b66bc049161a356 | 20:01 |
| Brainstorm | ublx: From apnews.com: 23 Australians on ship delivering aid to Tonga have virus | AP News | 20:02 |
| xx | how does this even keep on happening? Shouldn't they be tested before they board? | 20:02 |
| Tuvix | There was a story one of the COVID-focused doctors told a few weeks back that I'm reminded of, where someone at home who had a pulse oximeter didn't call for medical aid until her stats were at/below 60% oxygen. Had she recovered instead of progressed to critically-ill, she'd probably never have been considered initially infected. | 20:03 |
| Tuvix | xx: Depends on the test; antigen tests have a notable flase-negative rate, and they take some time after actually becomming infected to have enough virus replicated so the test can detect it. | 20:04 |
| LjL | xx, i thought they would actually not accept foreign helpers due to COVID | 20:04 |
| LjL | but i guess they may just unboard the goods and never interact with anyone | 20:04 |
| LjL | deboard? my spellchecked doesn't like unboard | 20:05 |
| xx | Tuvix: we run a shipping business and we have ships in our arsenal, and everyone who works on those ships gets tested daily, even if they only stay at port | 20:05 |
| xx | because outbreaks at sea are bad news | 20:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): This was the small contribution Malone made towards an mRNA vaccine, amidst all the other building blocksvia @whykeepitup pic.twitter.com/2yMQvnCY58 → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486049715900674051 | 20:05 |
| Tuvix | Yea, not many places you can go to isolate, plus presumably you need the crew to run the ship and such. | 20:05 |
| xx | yeah, everyone interacts with everyone else anyway while on board | 20:06 |
| Tuvix | Similar reason fires at sea are so bad, despite the appearance of water everywhere. | 20:06 |
| xx | impossible (and not desired anyway) to stop | 20:06 |
| LjL | xx, well if they catch it just a day or two before boarding, they won't test positive until they're already at sea... | 20:06 |
| xx | I can't comment on everyone, but all our ship workers have been very responsible during this pandemic, always taking all steps to protect themselves | 20:07 |
| LjL | to be *reasonably certain* you don't create a chain of infection, you need testing AND quarantine, necessarily | 20:07 |
| LjL | which is what China does | 20:07 |
| Tuvix | The CDC (or some other adjacent agency, I may have the attribution wrong) upgraded the risk of cruises given the COVID risk shortly after Omicron was identified. | 20:07 |
| ublx | i found this interesting: "It’s the second aid shipment from Australia in which at least one crew member tested positive. A C-17 Globemaster military transport plane was earlier turned around midflight after somebody was diagnosed." | 20:07 |
| ublx | transport plane can't anchor offshore and contrived to transfer cargo without human contact though | 20:08 |
| ublx | contrive | 20:08 |
| lastshell | https://boston.cbslocal.com/2022/01/24/covid-19-vaccine-heart-transplant-boston-brigham-womens/ | 20:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): New on #LongCovid An immunologic signature that may help predict its occurrencenature.com/articles/s4146…@NatureComms A mechanism by which #SARSCoV2 infected cells can trigger chronic inflammation via senescencenature.com/articles/s4358… @NatureAging → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486053270745337863 | 20:15 |
| ublx | a view of endemicity that could have been written by GPT-3 trained on this channel's scroll: | 20:19 |
| ublx | %title https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00155-x | 20:19 |
| Brainstorm | ublx: From www.nature.com: COVID-19: endemic doesn’t mean harmless | 20:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV: Omicron survives much longer on plastic and skin than earlier COVID variants, new study finds → https://old.reddit.com/r/CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV/comments/sclequ/omicron_survives_much_longer_on_plastic_and_skin/ | 20:25 |
| xx | well good, I hope we never go back to handshakes | 20:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Moritz Gerstung (@MoritzGerstung): German Omicron update 2022-01-25* More daily BA.2 cases (5%, 8k) than Delta (2-3%, 4-5k).* Highest BA.2 proportion in Berlin (~30%).* BA.2 growth advantage over Delta ~20% per day; BA.1 ~15% faster than Delta per day. pic.twitter.com/YNEWbIWbl2 → https://twitter.com/MoritzGerstung/status/1486060763160666117 | 20:44 |
| Arsanerit | xx: Then how will we establish a TCP connection? | 21:02 |
| xx | UDP all the way | 21:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from Contagion Live: us: Public Health Watch: Pediatric RSV on Decline Amid Omicron Surge → https://www.contagionlive.com/view/public-health-watch-pediatric-rsv-on-decline-amid-omicron-surge | 21:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): ICU admits may be the best proxy for lack of vaccinations. Israel and the US have low rates of vaccination (65, 63%) and have seen rising ICU rates in their Omicron waves (not seen in high vaxx % countries)@OurWorldInData pic.twitter.com/ic0LzdsRVK → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486070167654191105 | 21:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: COVID-19: endemic doesn’t mean harmless: Type Journal Article Author Aris Katzourakis URL https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00155-x Rights 2022 Nature Volume 601 Issue 7894 Pages 485-485 Publication Nature Date 2022-01-24 DOI 10.1038/d41586-022-00155-x Accessed 2022-01-25 [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/S8MUSZ3E | 21:34 |
| LjL | uhm https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.18.476607v1.full makes me think of going back to religiously cleaning fomites | 21:35 |
| dTal | You don't really need to religiously clean to avoid fomites | 21:39 |
| dTal | Just use red zone / orange zone / green zone | 21:39 |
| LjL | dTal, can't wait 8 days before using fresh milk | 21:40 |
| dTal | but hmm, extra longevity does present more logistical challenges | 21:40 |
| dTal | yeah | 21:40 |
| LjL | also, live in an apartment | 21:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: Omicron survives up to 8 days on plastic surfaces, new study finds: Type Web Page Author David Walsh URL https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/01/24/omicron-survives-much-longer-on-plastic-and-skin-than-earlier-covid-variants-new-study-fin Date 2022-01-24 21:47:02 Accessed 2022-01-25 [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/3A2XHUUW | 21:43 |
| xx | LjL: stop using milk then? | 21:50 |
| LjL | xx, milk is an example, there are a lot of things that are fresh and perishable... | 21:50 |
| xx | I've been leaving all my food in the garage for a couple weeks before opening it up, and been doing the same with other deliveries | 21:50 |
| LjL | no, i won't stop using all of them | 21:50 |
| LjL | well good for you having a garage contiguous to your house and everything | 21:51 |
| xx | you mean you don't have a decontamination room setup yet after coming from the outside? | 21:51 |
| xx | or at the very least garbage bags into which you put and seal all new deliveries or shopping items? | 21:52 |
| LjL | no | 21:52 |
| xx | well, guess I'm more strict about this pandemic than others | 21:53 |
| LjL | i don't have random rooms i can dedicate to groceries for *more than a week* | 21:55 |
| xx | it can be as simple as partitioning the very first room the outside door leads to | 21:56 |
| LjL | also known as the corridor | 21:56 |
| xx | usually, but some people don't have corridors and instead it leads directly to e.g. kitchen | 21:57 |
| xx | enter house -> carefully remove all clothes without shaking them and place them in a specific bag, don't remove glasses and mask -> go to showerroom, wash hands, remove mask and glasses, have shower | 21:59 |
| xx | and do that every time you cross from the outside | 21:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Clarification: Colors are swapped on the vaccine right-sided panels. Israel has slightly more 2-shot vaccination and >2X boosters → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486080981387808769 | 22:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): Potential underlying mechanism for some longCovid symptoms (mouse); cellular senescence and SASPs.SARS-CoV-2 infection triggers paracrine senescence and leads to a sustained senescence-associated inflammatory responsenature.com/articles/s4358… → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1486083733266604036 | 22:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): The discussion I just had with @LarryMadowo on Omicron and vaccines @CNN youtube.com/watch?v=P7CY3D… → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486088415531597828 | 22:32 |
| lastshell | wow I sleep sometimes with the same cloths I go outside | 22:37 |
| lastshell | I need to improve that | 22:37 |
| lastshell | I didn't knew aboout having a room for decontamination | 22:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: CDC confirms Omicron less severe than other variants: Stephanie Soucheray | News Reporter | CIDRAP News Jan 25, 2022 Though illnesses are less severe, Omicron cases have still strained US healthcare systems owing to sheer volume. → https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/01/cdc-confirms-omicron-less-severe-other-variants | 22:41 |
| spassiba | need a BS filter now for the CDC | 22:43 |
| de-facto | when i come home i wash my hands with hot water and soap for 30s | 22:56 |
| de-facto | and i take out my shoes outside and leave them there | 22:56 |
| de-facto | i.e. outside the flat on the chairs | 22:57 |
| de-facto | *stairs | 22:57 |
| de-facto | also i spray doorknobs with ethanol regularly | 22:58 |
| de-facto | when i go shopping i imagine one hand as "dirty" and one as "clean" and dont mix | 22:58 |
| de-facto | i always wear a mask near people, i never take it off, not even for a split second | 22:59 |
| de-facto | i tend to open windows and fight against people that complain that it gets cold | 22:59 |
| de-facto | (went in quite some disputes about it, escalating until they comply) | 23:00 |
| dTal | wow you're still keeping all that up after 2 years? | 23:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Andrew Rambaut (@arambaut): @jcbarret @pathogenomenick If BA.1 and BA.2 (and their recombinant sibling, BA.3) arose in the same individual then perhaps the NTD and 69/70del in particular were in balancing selection. That might be a microcosm of what is going on with Alpha-Delta-BA1-BA2 → https://twitter.com/arambaut/status/1486097590252888072 | 23:10 |
| dTal | I ignore my shoes. I consider myself vanishiingly unlikely to catch covid from my shoes. | 23:10 |
| dTal | I don't spray doorknobs, because I don't touch them with dirty hands. | 23:10 |
| LjL | i've always taken my shoes off when coming home, although not as religiously as a japanese or possibly scandinavian or canadian person would | 23:10 |
| LjL | now i take them home and also quickly spray the soles with alcohol | 23:11 |
| LjL | i don't think it's very likely to catch covid from them but it's also pretty low-effort | 23:11 |
| dTal | Spraying your soles with alcohol is not low effort! | 23:11 |
| LjL | anyway i wouldn't want my outside shoes to roam around the house regardless of covid | 23:11 |
| LjL | sidewalks are pretty disgusting | 23:11 |
| dTal | Sidewalks get rinsed a lot more often than toilet seats and you sit on those with your bare bum | 23:12 |
| dTal | Way I see it, you're not gonna catch covid from your shoes. It's not going to happen. | 23:12 |
| dTal | The chain of events would have to be ridiculous, and involve you licking the soles of your shoes. | 23:13 |
| dTal | Or rubbing them with your finger, and then picking your nose without washing your hands, And you'd have had to have stepped on a droplet that someone with covid had coughed out, and touch that exact spot on your sole by sheer concidence. | 23:15 |
| de-facto | i also did not put the shoes indoors prior to the pandemic | 23:15 |
| de-facto | i am in socks at home, so i want it clean and separated from street dirt | 23:15 |
| LjL | dTal, lol, sidewalk getting rinsed more often than my toilet seat is most definitely inaccurate | 23:15 |
| de-facto | (i also spray toiled seats with ethanol) | 23:16 |
| de-facto | lol | 23:16 |
| LjL | also unlike other parts of my toilet, my toilet seat is exceedingly unlikely to have big lumps of shit on it, while sidewalks most decidedly aren't | 23:16 |
| dTal | I can't decide if I'm the only normal one here, or an unusually filthy person | 23:16 |
| LjL | it's also unlikely to have random garbage sitting in the sun and rotting out on it | 23:17 |
| LjL | again unlike sidewalks | 23:17 |
| dTal | look I'm not arguing for the sterility of sidewalks | 23:17 |
| LjL | no, you're just saying my toilet seat is likely dirtier | 23:17 |
| LjL | and i'm saying it's... really not | 23:17 |
| dTal | lol I didn't actually say that | 23:18 |
| de-facto | i am not sure if all that is required biologically, but its required for me to feel comfortable and peace of mind | 23:18 |
| LjL | at best, let's call it "close", but then i also have a bidet after using the toilet... | 23:18 |
| dTal | I'm impressed LjL, I've known you for several years now and you've never mentioned the bide | 23:18 |
| dTal | reddit would have me believe that all bidet owners interject it into every conversation at the first available opportunity | 23:19 |
| LjL | dTal, bidets are a standard fixture in Italy, they may not often be mentioned but they are definitely taken for granted, and it's one of the big panics where going to barb... i mean foreign places | 23:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: 75% of COVID ICU survivors have physical symptoms 1 year on: Mary Van Beusekom | News Writer | CIDRAP News Jan 25, 2022 Also, 26% had mental symptoms, 16% had cognitive problems, and 58% reported work-related issues. → https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/01/75-covid-icu-survivors-have-physical-symptoms-1-year | 23:19 |
| dTal | but no, all I'm saying is that catching covid from your shoes - even if you were to walk through a covid ward - is vanishingly unlikely, *especially* if you leave your shoes at the door, and rinsing them in alcohol is just a waste of good alcohol | 23:20 |
| dTal | LjL I've been thinking of getting a bidet actually | 23:21 |
| LjL | there are all sorts of electric bidets available now without having a "physical" fixture, but i hear you basically can't have an electric outlet in the bathroom in the UK, so maybe you're out of luck there | 23:22 |
| LjL | except the silly thing that can't take more than zero amps, rounded | 23:22 |
| LjL | an actual bidet like we have in italy, though, basically requires complete bathroom remodelling | 23:23 |
| dTal | yeah and mine is in the ceiling over the shaving mirror, which means my electric toothbrush has to have a wire going up the side | 23:23 |
| dTal | but I hear you can get standalone, retrofit things | 23:23 |
| dTal | idk maybe you fill them from the tap and work them by foot pump | 23:23 |
| LjL | possibly, how do they get connected to the water? | 23:23 |
| LjL | and to the drainage, too | 23:24 |
| LjL | according to a random reddit map, bidets are "mandatory" in bathrooms only in Italy and Portugal | 23:24 |
| LjL | although Reddit is down for me right now, so i'm trusting google as a proxy for that | 23:25 |
| de-facto | also sometimes I do crazy things like in summer 2020 we had a visitor with a "summer flu" so i avoided contact and later when everyone left put an ozone generator in the room for 30 min | 23:27 |
| Arsanerit | Isn't opening all windows good enough? | 23:28 |
| de-facto | yeah probably but they did party so who knows | 23:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Key senators propose an overhaul of how the U.S. prepares for pandemics: A powerful, bipartisan duo of senators wants to empower Congress to ensure the government’s response to the next pandemic is far smoother than it was on Covid-19. → https://www.statnews.com/2022/01/25/key-senators-propose-overhaul-us-pandemics/ | 23:29 |
| de-facto | (btw i was lucky that no fabric got bleached, could have gotten me into trouble) | 23:29 |
| de-facto | the curtains luckily were made from some polyester or such | 23:30 |
| de-facto | i think i would not do that again, ozone is extremely aggressive | 23:35 |
| de-facto | (and poisonous to strict requirement to avoid breathing even tiny amounts of it) | 23:36 |
| de-facto | do you give other people the hand? | 23:44 |
| de-facto | another thing i do is keeping my finger nails as short as possible (i think thats a good addition to washing hands and not touching the face) | 23:52 |
| LjL | dTal, India and other places may have variations on bidets that aren't quite bidets, but we're all in rough agreement that northern europeans and americans stink https://www.reddit.com/r/Maps/comments/pq3uz2/countries_where_bidets_are_mandatory/hd8pt26/?context=3 | 23:53 |
| dTal | Well, I imagine some northern europeans and americans use wet wipes. | 23:55 |
| dTal | Which I'd imagine do about the same job. | 23:55 |
| dTal | Contingent on the user. | 23:55 |
| dTal | Of course it's catastrophic for the environment and also the sewage system if they happen to flush them, so they really shouldn't :D | 23:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): Turns out Israel has had enough people months out from their third dose to know that antibody levels again drop after a few months. cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspecti… → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1486110181503094786 | 23:58 |
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