| Tuvix | What I'm really driving at is that, while there almost sure _is_ a protective factor from multiple infections, there are so many unknowns that it's not really a good reason to avoid getting vaccinated. | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| xx | I don't actually know if the current antibody blood tests are able to find how many different variants a person was exposed to. I don't think they are doing that yet. | 00:00 |
| Tuvix | So it really still boils down to the individual choice to reduce your risk, or continue to decline the vaccines despite the very likely odds it's improving your outcomes; how much improvement? That depends on a lot of complex factors, but still an improvement. | 00:01 |
| Tuvix | Lower improvement has been true in another important group just lookin at vaccines alone: the immunocompromised. Obviously they're still better off getting vaccinated, but it's less effective for that group than for the healthy. | 00:01 |
| de-facto | infection severity will also correlate with the magnitude of immune protection resulting from recovering from that, so a mild sore throat may be quite different than a pneumonia or multi organ involvement in terms of immunity (magnitude and variety) | 00:02 |
| Tuvix | Ah, true, so now it's not just "were you infected" but "how much protection did your infection really confer" | 00:02 |
| Tuvix | (and that's yet-harder to evaluate/study, and virtually impossible for a fully-recovered patient) | 00:03 |
| de-facto | vaccination manages to generate quite a reliable level of immunity (e.g. antibody levels do not spread as far as with infections) | 00:03 |
| Tuvix | I hardly think the vaccine-declining population were racing out to get high-quality tests and lab results… | 00:03 |
| Tuvix | Yup, vaccines are carefully dosed, so you know exactly what you delivered. | 00:03 |
| de-facto | that of course makes sense given that an infection is self-replicating (by the virions) while a vaccination is a tightly controlled dose that does not self replicate | 00:04 |
| Tuvix | That afternoon at the bar you got infected (or more likely, several dozen of them) is not so clinically-dosed :P | 00:04 |
| Tuvix | The growing number of illnesses made worse by having COVID is concerning too. I finally read a few bookmarks I'd forgotten about and one of them was discussing the impact on hospitalized children in Utah's healthcare & ICUs. | 00:06 |
| Tuvix | Omicron actually provided infants worse outcomes per-capita for any age-group under 65, seemingly a factor of lack of vaccines or low vaccine uptake combined with the amount of existing conditions made worse. | 00:07 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for India: +86579 cases, +897 deaths since 22 hours ago — Netherlands: +95052 cases since 22 hours ago — Germany: +34 deaths since 16 hours ago | 00:07 |
| Tuvix | Some of those conditions were never a problem for that child before; one of the patients discussed in the SLT Trib article never had any breathing problems before, but required a hospital visit and ventalation as a result of having COVID. | 00:07 |
| Tuvix | Pretty sure I got this from the bot, but here's the under-5 news article: https://www.sltrib.com/news/2022/01/21/utahs-covid | 00:08 |
| Klinda | I am reading that the virus can cause alzhaimer | 00:08 |
| Klinda | how is that true? | 00:08 |
| Tuvix | COVID seems to be causing problems with a number of conditions that may have existed in a patient but not necessarily at a level to pose significant problems, like I was discussing above. | 00:09 |
| Tuvix | We know there's some interaction with the brain thanks to some studies (the UK Biobank brian imaging study was an excellent demonstration of that.) However, the mechanism is still not largely understood. | 00:09 |
| Klinda | why the body can't recover from that damage | 00:10 |
| Klinda | is that stupid or what? | 00:10 |
| Tuvix | For instance, the loss of smell certainly suggests there's some connection with the brain, but we don't understand why fully. | 00:10 |
| Klinda | if you have some cold is normal to lose some smell | 00:10 |
| Klinda | but you recover from it | 00:10 |
| Klinda | with this virus no.. seems more time needed | 00:11 |
| Tuvix | The human immune system is pretty impressive, but it's got limits. The body can't fight off most forms of cancers either, which is why we have to apply pretty invasive mitations such as surgical removal or very toxic chemicals that have lots of unwanted side-effects. | 00:11 |
| Tuvix | And sure, many people do recover from COVID seeminly fully and in a fairly short time frame of perhaps just a week or two. Others end up with long-covid symptoms months after their infection. | 00:12 |
| Klinda | the body can handle smoke, alchool, drugs, "flu" and some other things | 00:12 |
| Tuvix | Well, those can also all cause major damage. A recent report on alcohol has indicated that there is no safe level of alcohol for the heart, for instance. | 00:13 |
| Tuvix | We of course know the dangers of smoke in long-term impacts on the respiratory system. The body most certainly cannot recover from damage like cronic smoking, and it'll stay with a patient for life. | 00:13 |
| Klinda | but he still can reach 80+ years old | 00:14 |
| Klinda | that's enough | 00:14 |
| Klinda | how a virus can damage very badly one | 00:14 |
| Klinda | and these "known" stuffs no | 00:14 |
| Tuvix | Careful about using case studies and treating it as a rule. | 00:14 |
| Tuvix | Some people have been brought back to life after 10 minutes of no oxygen too, but this hardly means that it's "safe" to deprive yourself of air for that long. | 00:14 |
| Tuvix | Same with COVID; repeat exposure certainly is not a 'good' thing. The immune system may improve with repeat exposures, but the side-effects are far, far worse than vaccination if the goal is immune-protection. The cost/benefit tradeoff of intentionally getting infected is very bad. | 00:16 |
| Klinda | I mean if you take a pneuomonia is normal that you don't recover soon, and maybe will ahve a sign of it forever.. but still the body want to fix it.. | 00:16 |
| Tuvix | It just doesn't work that way in aggregate for any damage the body has. Think of it like a computer virus; sometimes you can remove just the virus, but other times it's so deeply burried that you effectively have to wipe the whole system to remove it. | 00:16 |
| Tuvix | Perhaps with enough skill and knowledge of the specific virus we could do a more targeted approach, but just like with the human immune system, sometimes you don't have all the data you need to make that evaluation. | 00:17 |
| Klinda | for me is like terrorists saying yes it causes alzheimer | 00:17 |
| Klinda | you make only the pepole feel depressed and so on | 00:17 |
| LjL | https://www.alz.org/aaic/releases_2021/covid-19-cognitive-impact.asp | 00:18 |
| * LjL terrorizes around | 00:18 | |
| hirogen | anyone know if ppl in their early 40s say 3 to 5 months after taking the 2nd jab start experiencing issues in working out and cardio where they don't want to or cant seem to really push it hard as they used too, like I used to do these super sprints and really I'd kill myself at the final 5 seconds up a hill or say I'd go 9 to 10 rounds on a bag and try to smash the shit out of it really | 00:19 |
| hirogen | smashing the cardio to teh highest level and weight lifting I'd try to just always max out if I could now I can't seem to | 00:19 |
| hirogen | yet I'll still train 4 to 5x a week kcikboxing, boxing, weight lfiting, cardio, kettbleels, all sorts really but i just dont quite push myself over the edge anymore | 00:19 |
| Tuvix | Side-effects from heart-related strain, although rare, when present generally appear to improve over the course of 1 to 4 weeks, and are more common in the uner-30 group than older groups. | 00:20 |
| Klinda | I experienced a difficult on walking in my first jab | 00:21 |
| Tuvix | Now, with just 2 doses, protection against the current varient is likely not as great, so it's also possible a viral infection could also be responsible. That's true also for the 3-dose recipients, though outcomes are a lot better past the 5 or 6 month point. | 00:21 |
| Klinda | I couldn't walk like before.. | 00:21 |
| Klinda | but then after some days it were normal | 00:22 |
| Tuvix | That depends a bit on when you got vaccinated, but by your 3-5 month comment, I take it you're at least 5 months past your 2nd dose? The protection against Omicron in that case is much lower than with a 3rd mRNA dose. Specifically the protection against side-effects. | 00:22 |
| Klinda | my mom with 3 jab got it anyway and same symptoms as me, but she were way older | 00:22 |
| Klinda | yes Tuvix but I was telling in my first jab in the end of july | 00:23 |
| Tuvix | My timing comment was regarding th eoriginal question, not your comment. | 00:24 |
| Tuvix | Hence my specifically referring to the 3 to 5 months timeline. | 00:24 |
| Tuvix | My own experience with the 3rd dose (all 3 Pfizer here) was almost no side-effects at all, besides a mildly sore arm at the injection site as common with many intra-muscular vaccines. While I had only mild side-effects from my first 2, the 3rd was far less impact. | 00:27 |
| hirogen | i had no issues or side effects taking my jab | 00:27 |
| Tuvix | Overall I think that's fairly common, but everyone's body reacts a bit differently. | 00:27 |
| hirogen | i just noticed I dont kill myself in the gym cardio wise that is | 00:27 |
| Klinda | btw for me saying covid 19 damage your heart, your lungs, your brain and all in the long term, seems like a terrorist thing, also if it's true, you don't need to publish article about it, maybe for only 10% of the cases is like that and you can't prove that is a real thing | 00:27 |
| Klinda | I found a study of 49 pepole that covid damge your heart | 00:28 |
| Klinda | did you see it?? | 00:28 |
| Klinda | I mean if so also smog and other stuffs damage you, but you don't see it in every article they write | 00:29 |
| LjL | maybe that's because you don't read every article about smog | 00:30 |
| LjL | that COVID papers end up in the media more than other things only seems natural during a pandemic | 00:30 |
| LjL | you don't have to read it :P | 00:30 |
| LjL | COVID causing damage to the heart is a definite concern in the medical community | 00:31 |
| hirogen | I can imagine it does some damage loads of ppl got long covid esp vegans, unfit ppl , certain age groups, even slim ppl | 00:32 |
| xx | vegans? | 00:32 |
| hirogen | oh come on vegan food compared to veggie food | 00:32 |
| Tuvix | hirogen: Which vaccine did you take? | 00:33 |
| hirogen | nothing normal about that diet | 00:33 |
| xx | hirogen: like, apples? | 00:33 |
| hirogen | phizer | 00:33 |
| Klinda | athlete heart is not a good heart | 00:33 |
| Klinda | or at least is what my medic said to me | 00:33 |
| Klinda | xD | 00:33 |
| hirogen | mind you the person who got it mid 20's is highly stressed prone to crying easily | 00:33 |
| hirogen | really | 00:33 |
| hirogen | so dont over train? | 00:33 |
| hirogen | cardio 2x a week isn't so bad though? | 00:33 |
| Klinda | sometimes is good | 00:34 |
| Klinda | yes | 00:34 |
| xx | it's better to be over train than under train I guess | 00:34 |
| Klinda | I go out and walk fast for one hour for example | 00:34 |
| Tuvix | hirogen: Okay, if you do end up opting for a booster for its significantly beter protection and statistical outcomes, you may want to continue with Pfizer. While the risk is indeed very low for even short-term (acute) heart imflamation, it's ever so slightly raised with Moderna. As a result, I'd suggest your possible 3rd dose also be Pfizer is that's a possible concern, though talk to your doctor for | 00:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: Nervous system consequences of COVID-19: Type Journal Article Author Serena Spudich Author Avindra Nath URL https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1126/science.abm2052 Rights Copyright © 2022 The Authors, some rights reserved; exclusive licensee American Association for the Advancement [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/VJ4CXPXK | 00:35 |
| Tuvix | details about your case. | 00:35 |
| Tuvix | I do a fair bit out outdoor cardio myself in a somewhat rugged trail system near my home. Just a week after my 2nd dose I was doing 3-6 km runs. But as I mentioned before, everone's body is slightly different. | 00:35 |
| Tuvix | This said, I'd find it odd for a symptom like that to manifest months _after_ the vaccine; nearly all the side-effects I've seen in the medical literature are notably acute after vaccination, and the overwhelming majority of those clear up in a few weeks, if not much sooner. | 00:36 |
| Klinda | btw you will never see an article about "the vaccine caused this" | 00:37 |
| Klinda | but only "covid caused this" | 00:37 |
| Tuvix | It might be worth talking to a doctor if this is a new symptom that appeared months after vaccination, and since it may be completely unrelated given the timeline, a professional opinion is really the best bet. | 00:37 |
| Tuvix | Klinda: Not true at all. We actually know the vaccine has demonstrated side-effects, and this is discussed very openly in the public review of vaccine approvals. We *know* the vaccines are not side-effect-free. | 00:38 |
| Tuvix | The real question though is if the side-effects are considered safe for use by the public (as much as any drug or treatment needs to be) and that the risks of the treatment are lower than the risks involved in not taking it. | 00:38 |
| Tuvix | Every perscription a doctor gives you uses the same approach, and realistically, so should any medication you take which isn't perscribed, such as Asprin or NASIDs. | 00:39 |
| Tuvix | I'm actually not a fan of even mild pain-killers, but I do take them when the impact on my health will benefit from them. If I've injured myself, treated my wounds, but would have a hard time sleeping or doing necessary tasks during the day, pain-killers are an overall benefit. | 00:40 |
| Tuvix | I do not reacah for pain killers when I've suffered a minor injury (a not-uncommon occurance with cats, I'll note) | 00:41 |
| Klinda | I always take meds when it's really needed, for me also having a fever it's not a problem, so I could save my parcentamol when having covid | 00:41 |
| Klinda | but my mom said take it, and i did | 00:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: Β-Amyloid Deposits in Young COVID Patients: Type Report Author C. Harker Rhodes Author David S. Priemer Author Esma Karlovich Author Daniel P. Perl Author James Goldman URL https://papers.ssrn.com/abstract=4003213 Place Rochester, NY Date 2022-01-14 Accessed 2022-02-06 23:37:24 [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/A7EG92HH | 00:44 |
| Klinda | Tuvix: at least in the propaganda news you see more article about covid damage then vaccine damage... | 00:46 |
| Klinda | to just convince you to vaccinate | 00:46 |
| LjL | maybe there is more damage from COVID than from vaccines | 00:47 |
| LjL | just a possibility | 00:47 |
| Tuvix | A possibility supported by effectively the entire medical community, much like the theory of gravity is supported by all the evidence we have ammassed to date. | 00:48 |
| Tuvix | But, gravity too is "just a theory" after all. Be sure to bolt down anything you don't want to fly away if it turns out to be wrong ;) | 00:48 |
| Tuvix | If we consider death to be a pretty desirable level of damage to avoid, vaccines are clearly beneficial: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination | 00:50 |
| Klinda | when you get the flu do you see articles about the damage it could do? | 00:50 |
| Tuvix | Similar trends exist for hospital admits, side-effects, and so on. | 00:50 |
| Tuvix | Flu certainly causes damage too, up to and including deaths. These occur in much lower numbers and as a result are not as urgent a crisis. | 00:51 |
| Tuvix | And at the same time, influenza vaccinations save a significant number of lives, especially in the older populations that are more at-risk from serious complications. | 00:51 |
| Klinda | so it's like if you get a flu you recover, you don't have any damage if you reach 100+ years old. | 00:52 |
| Tuvix | Remember earlier how we talked about the body's immune system being more able to deal with certain things? The immune system is much better (but still no perfect) at dealing with influenza. | 00:52 |
| LjL | "covid is just a flu" was wrong on multiple levels two years ago, and it's still wrong now | 00:52 |
| Tuvix | You might have serious damge from influenza, and I'm sure some do. Some likely have worse outcomes, more complications, and earlier deaths. | 00:52 |
| Klinda | why with covid is not posbbile to recover all and no damage ? | 00:52 |
| LjL | but no, a flu can leave people with damage. even if they're not 100+. the fact is just that it doesn't for the vast majority, but ask a hospital doctor, and they'll tell you it's not always harmless | 00:52 |
| LjL | i'm really failing to see your point | 00:52 |
| LjL | are you arguing COVID somehow "can't" cause damage... because... some other diseases don't? | 00:53 |
| Tuvix | Stop using a single case-example of "but THAT guy made it to 100 years" as proof that your position is right. By that logic the fact that 36.9k people die annually from influenza in the US "proves" the point I'm making. It's a silly argument. | 00:53 |
| LjL | (even when they do, but whatever) | 00:53 |
| LjL | it is possible to recover with no damage with COVID. who said it is not "possible"? the thing is there is a much higher RATE of non-recovery | 00:53 |
| Klinda | in this world not hurting by smething is not posible | 00:53 |
| Klinda | but are you thinking always on what can damage you? | 00:54 |
| Tuvix | Living is about risk mitigation. I often use the example that I could be killed crossing the road tomorrow, but I can vastly improve my odds crossing at a designated crosswalk and checking for traffic carefully before I enter the roadway. | 00:55 |
| LjL | i ask again: what is your point? | 00:55 |
| LjL | at the start of https://github.com/ljl-covid/links#questions is something that was written by now almost two years ago and honestly not often updated, to the point that it doesn't even mention Long COVID or other various types of long-term damage. and yet, there are already a few points on why it is "not a flu" | 00:55 |
| LjL | those points are still valid, except with more added | 00:55 |
| Klinda | everything you do in this world can get damage.. you have a life to live, get vaccinate, do your best for not taking the virus and that's it | 00:57 |
| LjL | okay, in that case, why are you here? | 00:57 |
| LjL | this channel is basically about fixating on COVID | 00:57 |
| LjL | which is perhaps a wrong attitude to take? yes, indeed, it might be, and if someone gets anxious by being here, and prefers to leave, that may be a good idea for them | 00:58 |
| LjL | but COVID is a serious threat and unfortunately remains pretty serious despite vaccines, so if you're suggesting that "that's it" means we should cough on the bus without a mask on, *no* | 00:58 |
| LjL | if you're suggesting we shouldn't panic over the possibility of long-term heart damage if we get COVID... well, then you're right, panic doesn't help (but knowledge may help) | 00:59 |
| Klinda | if the long covid is really true we the states are not doing some screening of it? | 01:02 |
| Klinda | saying to all the world "hey we understand that covid can cause this and this, come here and see if you are suffering from it" | 01:03 |
| Klinda | but they just let you discover it alone, maybe when it's too late or something | 01:04 |
| Tuvix | In this case, screaning really involves application of already existing healthcare mitigations. Patients who have a medical issue or concern need to inform their doctors, and they in turn evaluate patients. | 01:04 |
| LjL | it won't be "too late" yet because we don't know how to treat it anyway. we're just discovering things about it. but some countries *do* have screening programs for it. | 01:04 |
| pwr22 | <LjL> "this channel is basically..." <- I don't really see the room as being exclusive to people who identify as fixating on covid 😛 | 01:05 |
| LjL | %title https://www.phosp.org/ | 01:05 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From www.phosp.org: PHOSP | 01:05 |
| Klinda | so the state just want you to get the vaccine so you don't get the hospital crowded so others can't get medication | 01:05 |
| Klinda | they don't really want you to take it | 01:05 |
| LjL | pwr22, you're allowed to fixate on other things (like Matrix servers) while you aren't fixating on COVID | 01:05 |
| Klinda | they don't really make you safe from it | 01:05 |
| LjL | Klinda, okay that's enough | 01:06 |
| LjL | you are not evne making sense | 01:06 |
| LjL | you're saying at the same time | 01:06 |
| LjL | 1) they want you to get the vaccine SO YOU DON'T END UP IN HOSPITAL | 01:06 |
| LjL | 2) but the vaccine doesn't make you safe from it | 01:06 |
| LjL | ?! | 01:06 |
| LjL | certainly i would prefer not to end up in hospital | 01:06 |
| LjL | and so would most sane people | 01:06 |
| LjL | and many insane ones | 01:06 |
| pwr22 | LjL: Ah, that's good 😛 | 01:08 |
| Klinda | the state only want you to be dead now, but be dead later from the damage of when you get the covid | 01:09 |
| Klinda | *not be dead | 01:09 |
| Klinda | if it's all true, what articles say | 01:09 |
| Tuvix | There's good evidence vaccines reduce long-term impact from the disease; some patients with long-covid symptoms even reported a reduction of their symptoms after vaccination. | 01:11 |
| Tuvix | Do keep in mind that we're only 2 years into our understanding of this disease, and still not even 1 year into widely-available vaccines. | 01:11 |
| Klinda | I mean if it's really a bad things, a world lockdown should be planned, if they really care to us.. | 01:12 |
| Klinda | but here one state say "all free the pandemic is done" | 01:12 |
| Klinda | and so on | 01:12 |
| Klinda | so we don't really want to fix this problem | 01:12 |
| Tuvix | Except that action also has very severe side-effects, including on the economy and well-being of its citizens. | 01:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Science: science: School closures during the 1918 Flu Pandemic "had no detectable impact on children's school attendance in 1920, nor on their educational attainment and adult labor market outcomes in 1940." → https://old.reddit.com/r/science/comments/smb97l/school_closures_during_the_1918_flu_pandemic_had/ | 01:13 |
| Klinda | maybe if it's all true we want to get less expentacy of life for just economics and so on | 01:13 |
| Tuvix | If you think of a strict lockdown in terms of a medical intervention, you also have to consider the unintended consequences that'll cause. A recent NY Times article discussed this exact issue, pointing out that social reduction measures require a balanced approach and acceptance by the public. | 01:13 |
| LjL | Klinda, many people here have said for a long time (or at least initially) that a serious "world lockdown" should have been done. it hasn't been done for many reasons, but jumping from there to thinking that it wasn't done *because they want us to die* is a little bit much | 01:15 |
| LjL | and just to clarify: are you saying that they want us to take the vaccine so that we die now, because otherwise we'd die later with long COVID damage? | 01:15 |
| pwr22 | Why do they want us to die? What is the benefit and does it offset the costs covid has brought? | 01:18 |
| Klinda | I am saying that they want us to not make the hospital full, so you get the vaccine, they never mention that long covid exist, that this virus will damage permanently some organs and so on, because if it's the case... I think they don't really care about the lifespan of us | 01:19 |
| LjL | it's not true they never mention it though | 01:20 |
| LjL | if you think long COVID has never been mentioned in the media, you have followed all the wrong media | 01:20 |
| Tuvix | The CDC has a lost of over a dozen new or ongoing symptoms that can result from COVID: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/long-term-effects/index.html | 01:20 |
| Tuvix | has a list* | 01:20 |
| LjL | because on the one hand you say the media keep scaring us about things... then you claim they don't mention long COVID?! | 01:20 |
| LjL | the possibility of COVID accelerating or even initiating Alzheimer's *is* something falling under the umbrella of long COVID | 01:21 |
| LjL | so your entire premise... i don't even know | 01:21 |
| Klinda | well imagine if I go the doctor now saying, what can I do if covid damaged my organs ? | 01:21 |
| Klinda | what is the answer? | 01:21 |
| pwr22 | I can't make any sense of what you mean Klinda , sorry ☹️ | 01:21 |
| pwr22 | We get the vaccines so we tend to have less severe (or none at all) covid and that fill the hospital less | 01:22 |
| pwr22 | What does that have to do with making us die right now and why does the state want that and also why don't they want hospitals full if they want deaths right now? Because one way to make deaths right now go up is to fill the hospital | 01:23 |
| Klinda | yes but you can get damage also if you recovered from it, so the state don't really care if you take it or not, it just want to be sure you not get into hospital | 01:23 |
| pwr22 | s/hospital/hospitals/ | 01:23 |
| pwr22 | It doesn't make any sense to me | 01:23 |
| LjL | Klinda, the answer is if the doctor is in some parts of the UK for example, they'll say "we can put you into this rehabilitation programme. You can't expect too much, unfortunately, because this problem is now. But fill this questionnaire, and with enough information from you and other patients, it may help us understand what the problems are, and how to deal with them". | 01:23 |
| Klinda | if it really wanted to do something about it more restrictions were needed, that's it | 01:23 |
| pwr22 | That doesn't make sense either. The vaccines make damage less likely. And again, why do they care if we go into hospital or not? | 01:24 |
| Klinda | but now is more likely "hey it's all done, we are free now after the booster" | 01:24 |
| Klinda | if it's really something bad, they are just making wrong decisions | 01:25 |
| LjL | it is bad, but i don't think it's tenable to keep people locked inside for *years*. maybe if we had done it better (and worldwide) for a month or two in 2020... | 01:26 |
| LjL | instead of, you know, "walking the dog" even if we don't have a dog, and things like that... | 01:26 |
| LjL | i think governments have a lot to be blamed for. *but* so do individuals. | 01:26 |
| Tuvix | At the time we also didn't know how bad it was going to get. The irony is that if we did know back then, we might have taken more strict measures despite the impact on society. | 01:26 |
| Tuvix | But once it got bad enough that it became clear what was happening, it was really too late for any practical limiations on movement to do any good. | 01:27 |
| LjL | Tuvix, i'm not sure. at the time, we didn't know about long COVID, but we thought (correctly, for that matter) that the fatality rate was much higher than it is now | 01:27 |
| LjL | if you mean limitations to international movement, i think many countries could have realized what was happening sooner instead of just staring at China and being like "uuuuuuh well it won't come here, right?", then staring at Italy and being like "uuuuuuh well it won't come here, right?", and so on | 01:28 |
| pwr22 | Yes imo the science was largely ignored by politicians who have engaged in the practice of global epidemiological wishful thinking 😛 | 01:28 |
| LjL | if you mean limitations to domestic movements as in lockdowns, well, in a few countries were the lockdowns were really rigid and a zero covid objective was seriously pursued with contact tracing, it worked | 01:28 |
| LjL | ... until it stopped working because they just had to stop doing it because it wasn't maintainable forever | 01:29 |
| Tuvix | I think even with "very strict" international movement, it still would have found its way across oceans eventually. | 01:29 |
| LjL | Tuvix, it repeatedly found its way back to China, or to New Zealand, but they also repeatedly squashed it | 01:29 |
| Tuvix | And once the first case lands and is given a chance to spread, it's all over. Just a bit more slowly to take up than if dozens/hundreds of people bring it in across various parts of a country. | 01:29 |
| xx | "found its way" = we let it onto airplanes | 01:29 |
| LjL | with Omicron they're sort of giving up, for a mixture of reasons | 01:29 |
| Klinda | but also I think now we have to live with the virus, they will not disappear | 01:30 |
| Klinda | it* | 01:30 |
| Tuvix | Sure, looking at pre-Omicron mitigations countries in for example Oceania, they actually had some succes, although they doo had domestic outbreaks and very harsh lockdowns. | 01:30 |
| Tuvix | With Omicron they're getting it spread like everywhere else, but I think my point is really that it wasn't viable for every country to do what Australia & New Zealand did. It was technically-possible, yes, but not practical, IMO. | 01:31 |
| Tuvix | Like that NYT article a day or two ago mentioned, you can't do more than the public is willing to put up with. | 01:31 |
| Tuvix | (unless you want your military to enact it. Again, not viable.) | 01:31 |
| LjL | Tuvix, the lockdowns were harsh but somewhat limited in time. during periods when they had virtually zero cases, daily life went on pretty much as usual, while in Italy for instance, we were seldom really completely out of lockdown, it was always "from today on, you can take off masks but only outside and when other people are distant", "now you can go to other regions, but only with a test"... (kinda making the specific things up right now, but you understand | 01:32 |
| LjL | what i mean i hope) | 01:32 |
| pwr22 | Yeah, it didn't help with the 1918 flu and things were even less global back then | 01:32 |
| Tuvix | Sure, I get your point too; I saw some videos of life in Australia in 2020-21 when they were largley maskles in malls shopping, eating, just doing normal things. US rules were similar to the Italian changes, but with a bunch of "guidelines" and "suggestions" that anyone was free to ignore. | 01:33 |
| LjL | Tuvix, i think the key is they're not *getting* it spread like everywhere else, but they're *letting* it spread like everywhere else. they've made a conscious decision to give up the "zero COVID" policy because they have, realistically, realized that it is no longer tenable with Omicron, while it was tenable before. they weren't wrong before and right now, the situation changed. | 01:33 |
| Klinda | is possibile that omicron cause long covid too? | 01:34 |
| xx | yes | 01:34 |
| Tuvix | It's more than possible; it's an almost certainty. Perhaps the percentages and types of impact may have changed ever so slightly, but it's still the same virus. | 01:34 |
| Tuvix | Just a new variation, which is why they're called Varients of Concern. | 01:35 |
| xx | talking of VoCs, the next one is delayed for some reason | 01:35 |
| LjL | we really haven't had Omicron long enough to have statistics on how bad long COVID will be with it | 01:35 |
| Klinda | but they say it's much less deadly | 01:35 |
| Klinda | isn't a good hope? | 01:35 |
| xx | we've had VoI -> VoC on a regular basis | 01:35 |
| LjL | yes, but it's still deadly. i am hopeful that long COVID will be less with Omicron, but i don't think it will *disappear*. and it's a hope, not knowledge. | 01:36 |
| Tuvix | I'm very careful to discuss Omicron as less-deadly personally; per-case that is technically true, but somewhere like the US we may actually see Omicron kill more during the initial wave than Delta did. | 01:36 |
| LjL | xx, i think BA.2 has reason to concern me :P | 01:36 |
| xx | yeah, but they are choosing to view it as a type of omicron instead of giving it a new name, despite having sufficiently enough mutations | 01:37 |
| Tuvix | If you use a measure of how many people died during the initial surge and recovery of the varient in a given country, it may well be accurate to say that in the US at least, Omicron may turn out to be more deadly in impact. | 01:37 |
| LjL | although i don't remember where was last thing i read about BA.2. it said breakthrough was 3x compared to BA.1 after a booster, and 2.5x after 2 shots, which is not a good sign, at least if i remember right | 01:37 |
| LjL | xx, it has *fewer* mutations all in all, though, right? | 01:38 |
| Tuvix | Wasn't that only because some of the mutations in the earlier lineage wren't found in the latter one (plus some other changes in the genome) | 01:38 |
| Tuvix | ie: more deletions than additions/changes. | 01:38 |
| xx | maybe I said it wrong. The number of mutations in spike protein between original omicron and BA.2 is larger than between omicron and delta. | 01:39 |
| LjL | i'm not really sure Tuvix | 01:39 |
| LjL | xx, well that's interesting | 01:39 |
| LjL | why is it even considered a sublineage? the WHO may not give it "a greek letter" for its own reasons, but why is it just BA.2 in PANGO? | 01:39 |
| xx | I don't have an answer to that | 01:40 |
| xx | and that's what makes me wonder | 01:40 |
| xx | not claiming any conspiracy, just finding it a weird deviation from how the naming was done before | 01:40 |
| LjL | it makes me wonder a bit too, but i can't say i know the specifics of BA.2 vs BA.1 (vs what we had before) to... any extent, so i'm basically just wondering vicariously | 01:41 |
| LjL | maybe my own mental fatigue that has not made me curious enough to try to figure it out is also a collective mental fatigue that is not making researchers place it on the tree the way they'd have done before :P | 01:42 |
| Tuvix | I'm really more interested at this point to hear practical implications and studies that focus on it. Call it by a cryptograph hash for all I care :P | 01:43 |
| LjL | and i'm only half joking, although that'd probably be just a different interpretation of a "they don't want us to react to yet another variant of concern" conspiracy theory... | 01:43 |
| xx | I still think they should have been selling the rights to name the variants | 01:43 |
| LjL | Tuvix, well, i *am* also interested in how people, researchers, and governments react, because it's interesting and because it has itself a number of practical implications | 01:43 |
| xx | make it an NFT or something | 01:44 |
| LjL | xx, i think Delta Airlines suing the WHO would be a nicely distracting shenanigan | 01:44 |
| xx | Delta Airlines will be fine if Corona Beer is still in business | 01:44 |
| LjL | heh | 01:44 |
| LjL | Corona beer was pretty pissed, though, if i may say so | 01:45 |
| LjL | but they didn't really have anyone to sue | 01:45 |
| Tuvix | Corona viruses were a thing before COVID-19 though. They just got unlucky that this one became so well-known. | 01:45 |
| xx | and that we keep commonly calling it 'corona' instead of SARS-2 or nCov or something else | 01:46 |
| Tuvix | Maybe I should buy a case next time I'm shopping. It's not usually a drink I stock at home, although I only ever drank it in bars, and I haven't been to one of those in 7 months now. | 01:46 |
| LjL | i think i will sue... someone... for the RSI that typing SARS-CoV-2 (including the alternating capitals and hyphens) gave me over time | 01:46 |
| LjL | i'd have happily typed "COVID" but then someone would always be like "that's the disease not the virus" - i knooooooooow :P | 01:47 |
| LjL | this channel was originally ##2019-ncov | 01:47 |
| LjL | (on freenode, of course) | 01:48 |
| xx | I like 'rona | 01:49 |
| xx | short and easy to type | 01:49 |
| xx | could have made if official | 01:50 |
| Tuvix | Nah, the headache to escape it in the places scientists use like formalized data and databases would have been beyond annoying | 01:50 |
| xx | heh true | 01:51 |
| xx | well they could have named it 🦇rona | 01:51 |
| Tuvix | Universal support will come as soon as native-ipv6 does worldwide. | 01:52 |
| Tuvix | Erm, universal UTF-8 support that is | 01:52 |
| LjL | there's seriously 🦇... | 01:56 |
| xx | on skype, it's even animated! | 01:57 |
| xx | https://emojipedia.org/bat/ | 01:57 |
| LjL | Unicode has gone 🦇💩 insane | 01:57 |
| xx | heh | 01:57 |
| Tuvix | Perhaps, but now I can express Omicron as Ο like it should be, not the non-Greek O. Thanks, UTF-8! | 01:58 |
| LjL | Τuvix, yep, and i can play tricks with people | 01:58 |
| xx | I'd prefer О | 01:59 |
| LjL | xx, nyet | 01:59 |
| xx | da | 01:59 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Canada: +6845 cases, +85 deaths since 23 hours ago | 01:59 |
| LjL | /kick xx nyet | 01:59 |
| xx | heh | 01:59 |
| xx | we'll run out of greek letters anyway | 01:59 |
| LjL | especially if they keep skipping a bunch | 02:00 |
| LjL | how many more world leaders are named like greek letters? | 02:00 |
| xx | don't know, but a lot of them think themselves alpha | 02:01 |
| LjL | no good reason not to name it Nu anyway except people were like "hohohoh the 'nu' variant" | 02:01 |
| xx | when't the Eta on the Η variant? | 02:01 |
| LjL | maybe some of them are even grandiose enough to think they are the Α-Ω? | 02:01 |
| LjL | eta isB.1.525 | 02:02 |
| xx | it didn't gain sufficient notoriety to make the jokes about eta on eta | 02:03 |
| xx | Brainstorm has been very quiet with updates | 02:04 |
| LjL | xx, there wasn't enough delta t between delta and it | 02:04 |
| LjL | xx, i've killed worldnews :P | 02:04 |
| xx | I can see why :) | 02:04 |
| LjL | i am petty and revengeful | 02:05 |
| LjL | as if they care | 02:05 |
| LjL | as if they know | 02:05 |
| LjL | but my rationalization is i don't want to contribute to an echo chamber of "only the news we like even though we pretend not" | 02:06 |
| LjL | the numeric updates were also stalled for a couple of weeks, Covidly's fault, but they should all be back now | 02:06 |
| Tuvix | It was kind of annoying to click a link from the bot only to have it a half hour later removed from the reddit feed. I'd already read the actual article it was discussing, but that's not really useful in the channel's feed when it's an unreliable source of material. | 02:06 |
| Tuvix | Granted this was not an overly common occurance, but the article itself in that case was quite factual, although I didn't like how they presented the story. | 02:06 |
| LjL | Tuvix, uhm but you can usually still see the reddit thread if you have the link that Brainstorm posted, it just disappears from the subreddit | 02:07 |
| Tuvix | Ah, true, and I think that was the case, so my argument is less effective. I'll fall back on the lack of decent information due to the chilling effect by posters to the sub then! | 02:07 |
| LjL | study sayx 'x' → article says "study says 'x'" → headline person makes a headline saying "'x', study says" → redditor copypastes "'x', study says" into reddit → moderators go "misleading title" | 02:08 |
| LjL | anyway we still have news from r/Coronavirus and r/COVID19 as well as a bunch of other obscure subreddits sometimes | 02:08 |
| LjL | and i'm even banned from r/COVID19 so i've only killed 50% of the subreddits i'm banned from! | 02:08 |
| LjL | https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/blob/master/feeds.py has the current list of feeds, by the way, in case it was missed | 02:09 |
| xx | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RaTG13#History | 02:11 |
| xx | why do we even let bats live... | 02:11 |
| xx | 293 diverse coronaviruses from just one cave | 02:11 |
| xx | while humans only have 6 | 02:11 |
| xx | 7, sorry | 02:12 |
| LjL | imagine the amount of infection from blood, corpses and everything if we went to chase every single bat and kill it | 02:12 |
| * LjL doesn't agree with the idea regardless but trying to make it about relatable terms | 02:13 | |
| xx | maybe we could engineer a coronavirus that's more lethal and release it into the bat population? | 02:13 |
| xx | nothing could go wrong with that... | 02:13 |
| LjL | maybe that's kind of what they were doing *cough* | 02:14 |
| xx | honestly, wouldn't surprise me if they reveled that in 20 years that they were working on a way of killing corona-infected bats | 02:15 |
| xx | bats are nasty creatures | 02:16 |
| LjL | bats fly and somehow that implied a different balance in their immune system had to be reached | 02:16 |
| LjL | apparently | 02:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: RaTG13: Type Encyclopedia Article URL https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=&oldid=1066048039 Rights Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License Date 2022-01-16T15:41:14Z Extra Page Version ID: 1066048039 Accessed 2022-02-07 01:15:40 Library Catalog Wikipedia Encyclopedia [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/2D3DW65D | 02:20 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Solomon Is.: +392 cases, +8 deaths since a day ago | 03:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): South Korea is in the midst of a major Omicron new case surge, with 86% of its population 2-shot vaccinated, 54% boosted, and other mitigation efforts. Their suppression of severe disease outcomes to date is impressive pic.twitter.com/LA5kxJaEzZ → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1490505381491056641 | 03:07 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Netherlands: +87716 cases since 10 hours ago | 04:04 |
| LjL | %cases south korea | 04:08 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: South Korea has had 1.0 million confirmed cases (2.0% of all people) and 6886 deaths (0.7% of cases; 1 in 7520 people) as of 4 minutes ago. 6.7 million tests were done (15.6% positive). 44.3 million were vaccinated (85.5%). +35275 cases, +13 deaths since a day ago. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=South%20Korea&legacy=no | 04:08 |
| LjL | that's quite a wave | 04:10 |
| LjL | hope Topol is right and deaths won't follow | 04:10 |
| LjL | Japan, which preceded them, isn't doing very good death-wise https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Japan;South%20Korea&byPopulation=yes&cumulative=no&smooth=yes&legacy=no | 04:11 |
| LjL | %cases japan | 04:12 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: Japan has had 3.3 million confirmed cases (2.6% of all people) and 19341 deaths (0.6% of cases; 1 in 6512 people) as of 8 hours ago. 34.8 million tests were done (9.5% positive). 101.2 million were vaccinated (80.3%). +89818 cases, +68 deaths since 23 hours ago. See https://covid19japan.com/ | 04:12 |
| LjL | lower vaccination rate, but decent | 04:12 |
| Tuvix | Looks like South Korea already hit the wave with a very sharp decline in new-case reporting; OWID seems to show a death-rate that rose & fell, but before (⁇) the surge in cases | 04:13 |
| Tuvix | Of course, the rise was nothing like the US which is my measuring stick now for how-not-to-manage-hospital-and-deaths | 04:13 |
| LjL | Tuvix, the deaths are still from their (much smaller, case-wise) Delta wave | 04:13 |
| LjL | and i'm hearing rumors that they've curtailed testing greatly now | 04:13 |
| Tuvix | Um, months apart? | 04:13 |
| Tuvix | https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2021-07-24..2022-02-04&uniformYAxis=0&pickerSort=asc&pickerMetric=location&Metric=Vaccine+doses%2C+cases%2C+ICU+patients%2C+and+deaths&Interval=Biweekly&Relative+to+Population=true&Color+by+test+positivity=false&country=USA~KOR | 04:13 |
| Tuvix | Oh, bah, I had my case graph reversed (UK was a darker color before I switched, I wasn't reading it properly mentall.) | 04:14 |
| LjL | Tuvix, months apart from the US you mean? the dynamics have been quite different in SE Asia | 04:14 |
| Tuvix | So, yea, that rise in S. Korea cases presumably translates to a yet-to-be-seen death rise. | 04:14 |
| Tuvix | Indeed, looks like a November-ish Delta wave, and a Jan-Omicron wave they're still seeing the very beginning of now | 04:15 |
| LjL | Tuvix, except, if one looks at Japan, it feels like comparatively, the deaths should already have started coming... look zoomed https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Japan;South%20Korea&byPopulation=yes&cumulative=no&smooth=yes&leftTrim=500&legacy=no | 04:15 |
| LjL | i'm going by eye but the delay between cases and deaths i see in Japan... i think it's already passed in Korea? | 04:16 |
| LjL | or thereabouts | 04:16 |
| LjL | i still have no real idea how Japan could have *zero* covid cases for quite a while despite having no big restrictions, except to immigration, and between prior waves, they didn't reach *zero* | 04:18 |
| Tuvix | Both that and OWID seem to show Korea has having a death rise that precedes the still-ongoing case rise, so I don't know if they've yet to see the corresponding rise in death that'd be expected, or if there's some kind of weird reporting delay or other external cause for that. | 04:20 |
| Tuvix | Looks like there was a small jump in cases just around late-Nov into mid Decmeber, but it seems both too early and sharp a rise in death for that to be the only factor. | 04:21 |
| Tuvix | Also interesting, the Omicron-related rise in Denmark's deaths. Now this said, comparing the Winter 2020-21 surge, they may end up only peaking at a bit over half the death rate with over 12 times the case-figure, although they still need a fast recovery or Omicron might end up claiming more lives total. | 04:30 |
| Tuvix | That more-lives-in-total possibility from the Denmark trends almost reminds me of the US comparison between Delta & Omicron. | 04:30 |
| Tuvix | (just comparing Denmark's prior-winter to curret-winter, to be clear about the surge differences.) | 04:30 |
| LjL | Tuvix, it wasn't such a small jump... it was by far the biggest jump they'd ever had, *before* Omicron struck. so it was Delta, which was nasty. | 04:31 |
| LjL | it only seems small if you compare it to the current omicron | 04:31 |
| LjL | doesn't seem very small like this https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Japan;South%20Korea&byPopulation=yes&cumulative=no&smooth=yes&leftTrim=100&rightTrim=50&legacy=no | 04:31 |
| Tuvix | Ah, good catch. At full timescale, a log-y-axis expresses that much better. | 04:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Scott Gottlieb, MD (@ScottGottliebMD): Via @CNBC - China's zero-Covid policy 'won't work' with omicron: Epidemiologist cnbc.com/2022/02/07/chi… → https://twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/1490527390421946373 | 04:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Scott Gottlieb, MD (@ScottGottliebMD): This may be one tragic legacy of the bitter fights inflamed by feds covid vax mandate for employers: “An examination of flu shot data suggests that which party people belong to is highly correlated with whether they have or will get a flu shot [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/1490529986750689280 | 04:43 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for India: +812 cases, +1374446 tests (0.1% positive) since 6 hours ago | 06:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): It makes sense to make the Cabinet representative of the country, but there's a right way to do it and a wrong way. This is the wrong way, and very wrong.Biden promised he'd take the pandemic seriously; putting someone who didn't want the job in charge [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1490552372422053889 | 06:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): At least she impressed the WH as someone who had the right executive skills. Again if the promise is to take COVID19 seriously, then put the best person you found in that job, don't put someone who didn't want it there.Becerra's legal background is a [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1490553132501192704 | 06:19 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Germany: +82363 cases since 23 hours ago — Guangxi, China: +38 cases since 23 hours ago — Northern Territory, Australia: +1 deaths since 2 days ago | 06:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: Time for a partnership on equal footing between Africa and the EU: While Europe gets back on track from COVID-19, the recovery of African countries is undermined by vaccine inequality. The S&D Group’s ‘Africa Week’ initiative seeks to [... want %more?] → https://www.politico.eu/sponsored-content/time-for-a-partnership-on-equal-footing-between-africa-and-the-eu/ | 08:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): Correctly, he described the disease as severe acute respiratory syndrome, or SARStwitter.com/michaelzlin/st… → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1490588883838398468 | 08:33 |
| Trippy72894 | update please on where this is all going? are we out of the woods? | 08:40 |
| * darsie is positive. | 08:41 | |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): And before anyone tells me COVID-19 is not SARS, or that Dr. Li was wrong, read the linked thread. A correct description for the clinical presentation of severe disease from SARSCoV2 is SARS. → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1490591047151349760 | 08:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: What's new: Orphan: Orphan designation: Bifunctional fusion protein composed of two extracellular domains of transforming growth factor beta receptor II fused with a human immunoglobulin G1 monoclonal antibody against programmed death ligand 1, Treatment of biliary tract cancer, [... want %more?] → https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/orphan-designations/eu-3-18-2112 | 08:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | February 07, 2022: Please refer to our Wiki for more information on COVID-19 and our sub. You can find answers to frequently asked questions in our FAQ , where there is valuable information such as our: → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/smkuj6/daily_discussion_thread_february_07_2022/ | 09:01 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for United Kingdom: +53365 cases since 18 hours ago | 09:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from Science-Based Medicine: Antivaxxers misuse the Defense Epidemiology Medical Database to demonize COVID-19 vaccines: Over the last couple of weeks, a claim that the Defense Medical Epidemiology Database (DMED) shows that COVID-19 vaccines [... want %more?] → https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/antivaxxers-misuse-the-defense-epidemiology-medical-database-to-demonize-covid-19-vaccines/ | 09:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Gunhild Alvik Nyborg (@GANyborg): Is this ⬇️ a result of increased transmission (Covid is known to lead to psychosis & other severe psychiatric symptoms in some) - or is omicron different from earlier variants in this respect? (BA.2 dominant in Denmark now)Are we following the right [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/GANyborg/status/1490606795542433797 | 09:49 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for New Caledonia: +2848 cases since 3 days ago | 10:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Gunhild Alvik Nyborg (@GANyborg): The main author of this study, Jonas Herby, a libertarian economist, has written a piece for AIER, a main sponsor of Great Barrington Declaration, denying Covid mortality in Sweden, calling many of those who died “dry tinder”, aier.org/article/sweden… → https://twitter.com/GANyborg/status/1490612099302797312 | 10:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Gunhild Alvik Nyborg (@GANyborg): From OP: increasing psychiatric hospitalizations may be due to1. Increased no. of ppl in for other reasons, testing +2. Incr. no. of people infected w psych symptoms due to high rates in society or3. Higher risk of psych symptoms in omicron??? Only [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/GANyborg/status/1490615092869844993 | 10:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Opinion: The Supreme Court is partly to blame for the Covid-19 test kit shortage: The lack of Covid diagnostic tests has been blamed on everything from the FDA to manufacturers. But there's another culprit: the U.S. Supreme Court. → https://www.statnews.com/2022/02/07/supreme-court-partly-to-blame-covid-19-test-kit-shortage/ | 10:55 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: Human medicine assessment reports: (news): Human medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): Vaxzevria (previously COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca), COVID-19 Vaccine (ChAdOx1-S [recombinant]), COVID-19 virus infection, Date of authorisation: 29/01/2021, [... want %more?] → https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/EPAR/vaxzevria-previously-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca | 11:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: What do we know about covid vaccines and preventing transmission? → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/smnarv/what_do_we_know_about_covid_vaccines_and/ | 11:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from ECDC: ECDC: Data on the daily number of new reported COVID-19 cases and deaths by EU/EEA country → https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/data-daily-new-cases-covid-19-eueea-country | 12:03 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Germany: +78277 cases since 21 hours ago | 13:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from ScienceNews: Why being pregnant and unvaccinated against COVID-19 is a risky combo: Being pregnant puts an individual at higher risk for severe illness and death from COVID-19, but vaccination has lagged among pregnant people. → https://www.sciencenews.org/article/being-pregnant-unvaccinated-against-covid-19-risky | 13:10 |
| xx | ^ being pregnant is already very risky, best to be avoided | 13:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from ECDC: Data on COVID-19 vaccination in the EU/EEA: Data in various file formats with information on COVID-19 vaccine doses administered, manufacturers, and target groups in the EU/EEA. → https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/data-covid-19-vaccination-eu-eea | 13:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Florian Krammer (@florian_krammer): For most of us COVID-19 will not be the last pandemic we have to live trough. What CEPI is doing is extremely important for preparedness against future pandemics. We need more of it. Here is a commentary I wrote about it in 2020: [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1490669337719549963 | 13:59 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Kiribati: +201 cases since a day ago | 14:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: Weekly Scientific Discussion Thread - February 07, 2022: This weekly thread is for scientific discussion pertaining to COVID-19. Please post questions about the science of this virus and disease here to collect them for others and clear up post space for [... want %more?] → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/smpokq/weekly_scientific_discussion_thread_february_07/ | 14:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): Indirect Protection by Reducing Transmission: Ending the Pandemic With Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 Vaccinationacademic.oup.com/ofid/article/9… → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1490680102291714050 | 14:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from Contagion Live: The Potential Benefits of Novavax COVID-19 Vaccine: The company recently submitted its data to the federal regulatory authorities for an Emergency Use Authorization of its COVID-19 vaccine, NVX-CoV2373. As it time to think about this potential vaccine being [... want %more?] → https://www.contagionlive.com/view/the-potential-benefits-of-novavax-covid-19-vaccine | 14:47 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Switzerland: +58657 cases, +14 deaths since 2 days ago | 15:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid: Tough new targets will tackle NHS backlog, Boris Johnson says → https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60289635 | 15:56 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Brunei: +748 cases since a day ago | 16:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): The first comprehensive assessment of the cardiovascular complications of #LongCovid at 1 year, just published @NatureMedicine nature.com/articles/s4159…by @zalaly and colleagues @WUSTLmed pic.twitter.com/FD4YRiA5es → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1490703191712825345 | 16:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Video Chat: Virtual Event: The exhaustion epidemic: Examining the Covid-19 burnout crisis in health care → https://www.statnews.com/2022/02/07/virtual-event-the-exhaustion-epidemic-burnout/ | 16:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Effect of the Nintendo Ring Fit Adventure Exergame on Running Completion Time → https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05227040 | 17:04 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Germany: +80507 cases, +20 deaths since 21 hours ago — Canada: +6714 cases, +41 deaths since 22 hours ago — United Kingdom: +130 cases since 21 hours ago | 17:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): The Effect of the Emotional Freedom Technique on Students → https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05227560 | 17:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Medication Use Evaluation for Enoxaparin in Hospitalized COVID-19 Patients → https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05226793 | 17:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: Analysis of Health Status of Сomorbid Adult Patients With COVID-19 Hospitalised in Fourth Wave of SARS-CoV-2 Infection: Conditions : COVID-19; Chronic Heart Failure; Diabetes Mellitus; Chronic Kidney Diseases; Ischemic Heart Disease; Arrythmia; [... want %more?] → https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05226416 | 17:33 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Netherlands: +77726 cases, +4 deaths since 23 hours ago | 18:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: Clinical Trial to Study the COVAC-2 Booster Dose in Generally Healthy Adults.: Conditions : Generally Healthy Adult Who Have Received 2 Doses of Authorized COVID-19 Vaccine (For Phase 1 of the Study); Generally Healthy Adult With a History of SARS-CoV-2 Infection (For Phase 2 Exploratory Group) → https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05226702 | 18:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Impact of Lp299v on Vascular Function in Patients With PASC → https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05227170 | 18:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: jorgenponder — om coronavirusepidemin (@jorgenponder): @Dereklowe There have been studies from Pfizer/BioNTech on Omicron neutralization in human plasma from different variant specific vaccines, and there these seem to help better against Omicron than the original.twitter.com/whippletom/sta… → https://twitter.com/jorgenponder/status/1490736240517390343 | 18:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Children age < 10 had infrequent hospital admissions and the incidence did not differ significantly between Delta and Omicron pic.twitter.com/c0UXkA97ln → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1490737707244351488 | 18:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR Science: Australia will reopen to fully vaccinated travelers in 2 weeks: Australia will reopen for doubly vaccinated travelers on Feb. 21, nearly two years after it first closed its border. The move is seen as welcome relief for its tourism industry. → https://www.npr.org/2022/02/07/1078866696/australia-reopens-border-international-travelers | 19:01 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Italy: +41602 cases, +326 deaths, +393663 tests (10.6% positive) since a day ago | 19:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from Contagion Live: Tracking COVID-19 Spread at a Midsized University: During spring 2021, when Alpha was the dominant COVID-19 variant, a midsized Midwestern university’s vaccination initiative was associated with a significant decrease in COVID-19 infections. → https://www.contagionlive.com/view/tracking-covid-19-spread-at-a-midsized-university | 19:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Scott Gottlieb, MD (@ScottGottliebMD): BA.2 may be having a hard time outcompeting the prevalent Omicron variant BA.1 which got its foothold in the U.S. earlier, and has already created widespread near-term immunity to the Omicron strain. twitter.com/alexbolze/stat… → https://twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/1490759130893721606 | 19:59 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for United Kingdom: +63409 cases, +45 deaths since 23 hours ago — Canada: +36 deaths since 23 hours ago | 20:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: valerie: AnGes: AG0302-COVID19 → https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/31/ | 20:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: valerie: Arcturus Therapeutics Inc: ARCT-165 → https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/148/ | 20:18 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Spain: +120818 cases, +335 deaths since 2 days ago — Germany: +106874 cases, +105 deaths since 23 hours ago | 21:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): A new piece by @DerekLowe on antibody imprinting frames the new results of the Omicron-specific vaccine vs the ancestral strain vaccine especially wellscience.org/content/blog-p… → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1490778543608909824 | 21:16 |
| LjL | so Australia is also giving up on zero covid, eh | 21:30 |
| Arsanerit | apparently | 21:30 |
| LjL | it may still make sense for various meanings of "sense" to keep borders closed even if you've had a peak of 100k a day | 21:31 |
| LjL | but i bet it's kind of hard to explain to a whole sector of society | 21:31 |
| Arsanerit | It has costs. | 21:31 |
| LjL | as long as you actually manage to stay at virtually no cases, it's an easier sell | 21:31 |
| Klinda | as China is doing | 21:35 |
| Klinda | no cases at all ahahah | 21:35 |
| Arsanerit | Of course they would tell us immediately if it broke out in a Uyghur prison camp </s> | 21:37 |
| LjL | since when did we also have BA.3? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SARS-CoV-2_Omicron_variant#Sublineages_and_BA.2_subvariant | 21:41 |
| TurboTech | Good afternoon | 21:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): More on Covid cardiovascular complications todayAustralia report of >20,000 cases with subsequent (90-day) 15-fold risk of myocardial/pericarditis, 6-fold risk of pulmonary embolism, and 4-fold risk of heart attackpapers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cf… pic.twitter.com/fgjvXI2Vo2 → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1490786931457757184 | 21:45 |
| de-facto | Howdy TurboTech :) | 21:48 |
| TurboTech | Fantastic. No one in my house ended up with Omicron. One lady I work with did. She was taking High Doses of Vitamin D. 10,000 IU daily for over a year and here Vitamin D level only hit 40ng/mL. She has some type of resistance. When she came back, I asked her how much sugar she consumes on a daily basis. She said, "I have to be honest with you, even though I am diabetic and overweight, I am addicted to sugar." | 21:52 |
| xx | 1) Diabetic 2) Overweight 3) Consumes processed sugar | 21:53 |
| TurboTech | My supervisor is overweight, diabetic, and has high blood pressure. He is black. His wife came down with omicron, He did not isolate from her. He never went positive. | 21:54 |
| TurboTech | He decreased his sugar intake when we first started studying it. | 21:54 |
| xx | pure luck, but something else is likely to kill him | 21:54 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: Emergence of Omicron third lineage BA.3 and its importance: Type Journal Article Author Perumal A. Desingu Author K. Nagarajan Author Kuldeep Dhama URL https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/jmv.27601 Volume n/a Issue n/a Publication Journal of Medical Virology ISSN [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/QHPHBSZN | 21:55 |
| TurboTech | We all have tirtrated vitamin D levels over 50 ng/mL. | 21:55 |
| xx | LjL: has BA.3 even been detected in any large numbers? Afaik it's extinct. | 21:56 |
| xx | oh I see the nice diagram there | 21:57 |
| TurboTech | This is not pure luck. The fact that we set ourselves up with Fructose which reporgrams the very cell resonsible for pathogen recognition and signaling is huge and the fact that vitamin D in normal physiological is needed to regulate the monocyte and how it signals is the one two punch. The oxidative burst from long term fructose intake and exposure to Covid 19 is throwing organ systems over a cliff. | 21:57 |
| xx | I meant that it's pure luck he did not get omicron (if it definitely was omicron) from his wife | 21:59 |
| LjL | xx, doesn't look extinct but also looks like very low prevalence. it's just the first time i even hear about it. | 22:00 |
| TurboTech | Uric Acid production from Fructose metabolism in the liver and Sars CoV-2 use the same pathways to produce superoxides with the siganling of NLRP3 inflammasome. We have been studying this for over a year. We run RNA-PCR instruments that diganose Sars CoV-2. | 22:00 |
| xx | BA.2 just dominates so much that the other variants have a harder time to spread | 22:01 |
| xx | TurboTech: well good thing I eat <5g sugar a day for many years now | 22:02 |
| de-facto | TurboTech, here in Germany we currently run out of PCR testing capacity, i am curious, how big of a challenge is it for labs to scale this up (in short time) and also acquire enough supply chain capacity for the consumables? | 22:02 |
| TurboTech | The fact that my Stepson moved home on January 2nd and was diagnosed with Covid 19 on january 5th (Omicron) and no one else in the house tested positive including an 80 year old who refused to be vaccinated speaks very highly of reduced sugar diet and significant antioxidant supplementation. | 22:02 |
| TurboTech | We have three different instruments running Covid 19 Tests. | 22:03 |
| TurboTech | I think my facility has over 25,000 tests on hand. | 22:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from WebMD: Ottawa Declares State of Emergency Over Truckers COVID Protest: Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson declared a state of emergency in the Canadian capital as trucker-led protests over COVID-19 pandemic safety measures spread across the nation. → https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20220207/ottawa-declares-state-of-emergency-over-truckers-covid-protest | 22:04 |
| TurboTech | We run about 500 a day. There is no problem getting tests cartridges. We run Biomerieux Eplex, Cephiad xPert and a BD Max. | 22:07 |
| de-facto | we would need to massively scale up PCR testing capacity, at least by an order of magnitude and more here in Germany | 22:07 |
| TurboTech | That is crazy. | 22:07 |
| de-facto | tests cost 10-times as much here in Germany as in our neighbor Austria and the city of Vienna tests more than whole of Germany afaik | 22:08 |
| TurboTech | That is unacceptable. | 22:08 |
| de-facto | so i wonder: is it due to lobby or is it a technical limit of the labs? | 22:08 |
| TurboTech | It is Germany for Crying outloud. | 22:08 |
| TurboTech | If I had to guess maybe a little bit of Both. | 22:09 |
| TurboTech | I bet they both have their hands tied up in it. | 22:09 |
| TurboTech | Goverment and Facilities. | 22:09 |
| de-facto | SynLab (Germany) vs LifeBrain (Austria) | 22:09 |
| TurboTech | Here the federal goverment is literally throwing antigen tests at people | 22:10 |
| de-facto | both make profit, one by few expensive, the other by many cheap | 22:10 |
| TurboTech | Each household can order 4 tests per month. | 22:10 |
| de-facto | yeah antigen tests are ok-ish but PCR is much more sensitive | 22:10 |
| TurboTech | Of course. | 22:10 |
| de-facto | lol 4 tests per month? wow thats almost nothing | 22:10 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for France: +2470 cases, +2 deaths since a day ago | 22:11 |
| TurboTech | There is no supply chain issue at least at my facility. | 22:11 |
| de-facto | with rapid antigen tests each person would need 4 tests per week | 22:11 |
| de-facto | with PCR maybe 2 tests per week | 22:11 |
| TurboTech | Why do people have to be tested that much? | 22:12 |
| de-facto | rapid antigen tests are sold in every supermarket for 3 € or such, but PCR is very expensive, 50-100€ or such, i heard VIenna pays 6€ per PCR test | 22:12 |
| de-facto | Omicron | 22:12 |
| TurboTech | so | 22:13 |
| TurboTech | It burned itself out. | 22:13 |
| de-facto | not yet | 22:13 |
| de-facto | at least not here | 22:13 |
| de-facto | numbers increasing, incidence diffusing into elderly unvaccinated groups | 22:13 |
| TurboTech | It does not matter if you are vaccinated or not. | 22:14 |
| de-facto | we will see, hopefully all goes more or less well, but testing helps a lot with preventing spread | 22:14 |
| TurboTech | It is not going to prevent infection. | 22:14 |
| de-facto | yeah but hospitalization | 22:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: COVID-19 cases climb higher in parts of Asia: Lisa Schnirring | News Editor | CIDRAP News Feb 07, 2022 Hong Kong, which has taken a more aggressive "zero COVID" approach, reports a record 614 daily cases. → https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/02/covid-19-cases-climb-higher-parts-asia | 22:14 |
| de-facto | by at least an order of magnitude or maybe even two | 22:14 |
| xx | Brainstorm: probably hamsters again | 22:15 |
| Brainstorm | xx: but I still get infected by hamsters | 22:15 |
| TurboTech | Did you read the lastest study out of isreal regarding Vitamin D levels? | 22:15 |
| de-facto | nope | 22:15 |
| TurboTech | https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0263069 | 22:16 |
| de-facto | oh TurboTech i also took Vitamin D since early 2020, 2000IU daily, and of course i got 3 shots of Moderna, so far never went symptomatic or positive, even when an household member got Omicron, wearing masks at home | 22:17 |
| TurboTech | We did not wear masks at home with my stepson. | 22:17 |
| TurboTech | Not even the unvaccinated 80 year old. | 22:18 |
| de-facto | oh wow ok... | 22:18 |
| de-facto | i mean i dont know where the threshold would have been, for that we would need 50% of people to get infected and then compare scenarios | 22:18 |
| de-facto | "Of 1176 patients admitted, 253 had records of a 25(OH)D level prior to COVID-19 infection. A lower vitamin D status was more common in patients with the severe or critical disease (<20 ng/mL [87.4%]) than in individuals with mild or moderate disease (<20 ng/mL [34.3%] p < 0.001)." | 22:20 |
| de-facto | "Patients with vitamin D deficiency (<20 ng/mL) were 14 times more likely to have severe or critical disease than patients with 25(OH)D ≥40 ng/mL (odds ratio [OR], 14; 95% confidence interval [CI], 4 to 51; p < 0.001)." | 22:20 |
| TurboTech | For three days the kid was walking around with no mask on before he presented with signs and symptoms. My wife drove him in a car to get tested while he was symptomatic with no masks on. | 22:20 |
| TurboTech | No one came down with it. | 22:20 |
| de-facto | so they have seen a correlation, but its always hard to compensate for cofounding factors, e.g. maybe there is a shared reason for both, lower vitamin D level and severe covid | 22:21 |
| de-facto | or vise versa | 22:21 |
| de-facto | wow ok, do you happen to know his CT value? | 22:22 |
| TurboTech | That was the main part of the study. They claim they were able to do just that. | 22:22 |
| de-facto | oh ok cool, i did only read the abstract yet :P | 22:22 |
| TurboTech | phonecall | 22:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): On Boosters with VoC specific vaccines (beta and Omicron).Omicron Boosters and Original Antigenic Sinscience.org/content/blog-p… → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1490802707938086914 | 22:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): "if a variant comes along that's horrific enough to show major immune evasion, that very property will make it something that a new vaccine booster is likely to be able to target usefully. Omicron isn't it, though." → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1490802710022602752 | 22:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): Aha, durability of responses after dose 3 was recently reported by Moderna. After dose 2, nAbs decreased 8x over 7mo for ancestral. After dose 3, this became 2x for ancestral, but 6x for Omicron.Fits most anti-Omicron B cells arising at/after shot [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1490807396595220480 | 23:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: mRNA-1273 or mRNA-Omicron boost in vaccinated macaques elicits comparable B cell expansion, neutralizing antibodies and protection against Omicron: Type Report Author Matthew Gagne Author Juan I. Moliva Author Kathryn E. Foulds Author Shayne F. Andrew Author Barbara J. Flynn Author [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/MQ2MRV3S | 23:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: LjL: @Dereklowe There have been studies from Pfizer/BioNTech on Omicron neutralization in human plasma from different variant specific vaccines, and there these seem to help better against Omicron than the original. https://t.co/9si9MGMKTC → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/Q8FW6H4C | 23:21 |
| LjL | some original antigen sin suggestions | 23:21 |
| LjL | this fact check is a bit underwhelming/perplexing https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/jan/31/instagram-posts/numbers-were-based-faulty-data-military-spokespers/ at minimum, gawd the incompetence | 23:25 |
| LjL | (of the military department that curated this now-offline database) | 23:25 |
| de-facto | .title https://investors.biontech.de/static-files/47b4131a-0545-4a0b-a353-49b3a1d01789 from https://investors.biontech.de/events/event-details/press-conference-provide-update-omicron-variant | 23:36 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From investors.biontech.de: PowerPoint-Präsentation | 23:36 |
| de-facto | page 11 shows data that would suggest that variant specific boosters do make a difference | 23:37 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.08.447308v2.full | 23:51 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.biorxiv.org: The ChAdOx1 vectored vaccine, AZD2816, induces strong immunogenicity against SARS-CoV-2 Beta (B.1.351) and other variants of concern in preclinical studies | bioRxiv | 23:51 |
| de-facto | i think "best" would be a *multivalent* vaccine including all major VoCs | 23:53 |
| de-facto | but yeah, noone cares what i think, they do their thing | 23:53 |
| Tuvix | Well, best would be something with both broad and long-lasting (at _least_ a year, more would be better) while retaining high-VE against at minimum severe outcomes including the need for medical intervention. | 23:54 |
| de-facto | i think that would be possible | 23:55 |
| Tuvix | Of course, you can have the best solution, but in places where there's still a lot of widespread lack of interest in getting vaccinated, that's a factor too. | 23:55 |
| Tuvix | I point to my own country as an example of how to do that badly, and our vaccination rates continue to decline (Omicron merely gave an ever-so-tiny bump to first-time-vaccine recipients then fell back to baseline declining levels.) | 23:56 |
| Tuvix | If (or more realistically, when) the next varient hits, I don't know if we'll be starting from much of a better place than our barely-below-average death rates post-Delta and pre-Omicron. | 23:57 |
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