| golinux | Not much | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| golinux | Ah, the joys of parenting . . . not. | 00:02 |
| KatolaZ | :) | 00:03 |
| rrq | .. the first 35 years are the worst.. | 00:12 |
| KatolaZ | :D | 00:13 |
| KatolaZ | I guess the first 35 are the best | 00:13 |
| KatolaZ | well | 00:13 |
| KatolaZ | I can tell the first 5/6 are great for sure ;) | 00:14 |
| KatolaZ | we'll see what comes next | 00:14 |
| rrq | mmm there is that period between 7 and 12 when they've started talking like people but not like teenagers :) | 00:15 |
| golinux | Here's the solution for all the misery. vhemt.org | 00:15 |
| rrq | mmm that doesn't solve it; it's just an attempt to avoid the problem... | 00:16 |
| golinux | Yup. | 00:16 |
| golinux | And save the biosphere at the same time. | 00:16 |
| rrq | like avoiding fruit flies by not growing fruit | 00:16 |
| rrq | avoiding methan gas by not farming cattle | 00:17 |
| * golinux needs to think about that one. Neither fruit nor flies are fouling this planet. | 00:17 | |
| rrq | avoiding sun light by not rotating the planet | 00:18 |
| rrq | well half right | 00:18 |
| golinux | Animal waste lays waste to estuaries and needs to go. | 00:18 |
| golinux | The process that creates it needs to go that is. | 00:19 |
| rrq | can't you just plug them at the business end? | 00:19 |
| golinux | They'd explode. | 00:19 |
| rrq | :) .. need to work.. | 00:19 |
| golinux | My spamers notes are a bit confusing. Trying to sort things | 00:20 |
| golinux | You'll have it in a bit. | 00:20 |
| drwhite | Hi folks. Just a quick one... is Devuan going SystemD? | 03:44 |
| drwhite | I'm looking at using Devuan for everything because Devuan Jessie doesn't use SystemD, but I found an article relating to ASCII that says.. And I quote.... " For ASCII Devuan has given up on removing libsystemd0 dependencies from Debian packages (they started removing that for Jessie and are rolling back on that now). They also recently added a logind-clone, and can now ship Debian packages that depend on systemd-logind unchanged." | 03:46 |
| fsmithred | no, we're not going to systemd | 04:06 |
| drwhite | Will there be software specific to devuan? | 04:09 |
| drwhite | as the developers, ais that one thing that is being worked on? | 04:09 |
| fsmithred | not sure what you're asking | 04:10 |
| fsmithred | if you mean packages in devuan repo that aren't in debian, then yes, there already are a few | 04:10 |
| drwhite | I mean like takign away software like the slow and clunky stuff that is installed and replacing it with faster more streamlined software that is created. | 04:11 |
| fsmithred | well, we sort of took away gnome, which is about the slowest and clunkiest thing I've ever seen | 04:13 |
| fsmithred | but we're not taking away firefox, which is also slow and clunky | 04:13 |
| drwhite | yes, Gnome3 is horrific. MATE is Gnome 2, and Gnome 2 was quite good. | 04:14 |
| fsmithred | I'm too impatient for even mate | 04:14 |
| drwhite | FireFox 24 ESR was fast and stable | 04:14 |
| drwhite | But after 24, they just started destroying Firefox... | 04:14 |
| drwhite | lol, I use xFCE myself. | 04:15 |
| fsmithred | seriously, I think they deliberately slowed it down in the past year | 04:15 |
| drwhite | But that's on my developer machine. | 04:15 |
| fsmithred | just so when they came out with the newest versions, they'd seem fast | 04:15 |
| drwhite | Actually, all their call home stuff is what slows it down | 04:15 |
| drwhite | They have all their telemetry and accounts and stats and more... And it all reports back... so it slows everything down. | 04:15 |
| fsmithred | and they got rid of that stuff in the latest versions?> | 04:16 |
| drwhite | Would Devuan be interested in an FF drop in replacement that is faster? | 04:16 |
| drwhite | no, they have not got rid of it, that's what they added in after version 24 ESR | 04:16 |
| fsmithred | the subject of a replacement for ff comes up often | 04:16 |
| drwhite | as well as the choice to update the browser or not, they just force you to update | 04:16 |
| fsmithred | so far, there is nothing that quite does it | 04:17 |
| fsmithred | well, 57 and newer are a lot faster than 52 | 04:17 |
| drwhite | Well, there isn't YET, because I have not spent enough time building it yet. It's not even close to being ready for anyone to see. | 04:17 |
| drwhite | and yet 61 is slow as a wet week | 04:17 |
| fsmithred | really? I don't think I tried that one. I thought all the newer ones were faster. | 04:18 |
| drwhite | nope | 04:18 |
| fsmithred | faster than the current slowed-down versions, but not faster than the old versions | 04:18 |
| drwhite | if you compare it all to 24 ESR, they are all slow | 04:18 |
| drwhite | But then again, I'm very very very picky | 04:19 |
| drwhite | I manage to speed up all versions after 24ESR by having it all virtualised and forbidding it to talk to Mozilla servers. | 04:19 |
| drwhite | That at least sped it up. | 04:19 |
| drwhite | It also prevents the automatic update | 04:20 |
| drwhite | You know, out on the road on a mobile phone connection.... FF updates... There goes 80 MB of data... | 04:21 |
| fsmithred | feel free to write a howto | 04:21 |
| fsmithred | I'm sure a lot of people would appreciate it | 04:21 |
| drwhite | Not to mention the bandwidth consumption to slow everything down. | 04:21 |
| drwhite | There are howtos out there. | 04:21 |
| drwhite | If they had a versoin of FF without the Accounts and telemetry and all the spyware crap like Windows 10 has, then it would be fast | 04:21 |
| drwhite | So I'm using different versions of things to build a browser that can handle everything. | 04:22 |
| drwhite | But I'm not using Python and such... | 04:23 |
| drwhite | Would it have to be open source? | 04:23 |
| drwhite | Or can it be closed source at first with disclaimer and all notifying of what it does and all? | 04:23 |
| fsmithred | I think we just mirror debian's non-free repos. We don't have one of those of our own. | 04:24 |
| drwhite | I'd just like to use Devuan as the proving area for it, to make it work without SystemD and more. | 04:24 |
| drwhite | It wouldn't be in the repos | 04:24 |
| drwhite | You do have some repos | 04:24 |
| fsmithred | yes, for the packages we fork from debian to remove systemd deps | 04:25 |
| drwhite | But I mean if I want to target Devuan specifically. | 04:25 |
| fsmithred | you can make whatever you want, host it, and tell people about it | 04:25 |
| drwhite | Or even to give devuan the upper hand of a browser that isn't bad | 04:25 |
| drwhite | okay, I can do that easily enough. | 04:25 |
| fsmithred | and I'm sure people will try it | 04:25 |
| drwhite | Do people like Open Source better than closed source? | 04:26 |
| fsmithred | um, yeah. Are you new to linux? | 04:26 |
| drwhite | No, not new to linux. | 04:26 |
| drwhite | I have been using Linux distributions since mid 90s | 04:27 |
| drwhite | Started on RedHat and CentOS. | 04:27 |
| fsmithred | and hanging around the online linux community? | 04:27 |
| drwhite | I have hung around the community, until they started the SystemD craze | 04:27 |
| fsmithred | there are people who make a distinction between open-source and free (libre) software | 04:28 |
| drwhite | But most people disagreed with my views of SystemD. | 04:28 |
| fsmithred | open-source is more corporate sponsored stuff. | 04:28 |
| drwhite | Yes there are. | 04:28 |
| fsmithred | vendor lock-in is not off the table in that arena | 04:28 |
| drwhite | Open source is also easier for hackers and crackers to find the vulnerabilities. | 04:29 |
| fsmithred | well, libre software also has source available, necessarily | 04:29 |
| fsmithred | you can be free if the software is hiding how it works | 04:29 |
| fsmithred | can't be free | 04:29 |
| drwhite | But if it is closed source, AND FREE? | 04:30 |
| fsmithred | impossible | 04:30 |
| drwhite | not true | 04:30 |
| fsmithred | how is it free? | 04:30 |
| drwhite | no cost | 04:30 |
| fsmithred | am I free to alter closed-source | 04:31 |
| fsmithred | libre | 04:31 |
| fsmithred | freedom | 04:31 |
| fsmithred | not free of cost | 04:31 |
| fsmithred | that's kind of irrelevant to freedom | 04:31 |
| drwhite | freedom of choice, freedom of request. | 04:31 |
| drwhite | as I said earlier, at first during initial times, it would be closed source | 04:31 |
| golinux | We will not support closed source | 04:32 |
| fsmithred | I know a lot of people who would absolutely not be interested in it for that reason | 04:32 |
| drwhite | so I would have to let hackers see the code so they can infect systems? | 04:32 |
| golinux | Exactly. drwhite you will get no traction for that here. | 04:32 |
| fsmithred | wow | 04:32 |
| fsmithred | that really isn't much of a problem | 04:33 |
| fsmithred | open-source stuff generally gets patched within days of a vulnerability being found | 04:33 |
| drwhite | I'm not willing to go open source until it is secure and tested and I have not got debug code in it. | 04:33 |
| fsmithred | unlike the dominant player in the market | 04:33 |
| golinux | drwhite has imbibed of the koolaide | 04:33 |
| drwhite | lol | 04:33 |
| drwhite | open source means that people can see the source, and change things and compile and make their own versions. | 04:34 |
| fsmithred | yes, that's what the free software movement is all about | 04:35 |
| drwhite | So that means that what I build would go nowhere fast, even during alpha and beta stages, correct? | 04:35 |
| golinux | Yup. They can make it better if they have an interest. | 04:35 |
| golinux | Not if it's closed source. | 04:35 |
| drwhite | Well, I'll jsut have to see what happens then? | 04:35 |
| fsmithred | sorry, I don't understand that last statement | 04:35 |
| drwhite | What is it you do not understand? | 04:36 |
| fsmithred | about stuff going nowhere fast | 04:36 |
| golinux | Your lack of understanding and appreciation of what libre software is about. | 04:36 |
| drwhite | I understand what Libre and open source is all about. | 04:37 |
| drwhite | Maybe you are not understanding me because I am probably not explaining it all well enough. | 04:37 |
| golinux | It like being a bit pregnant/. Wither it is libre or it isn't | 04:37 |
| fsmithred | systemd is a shotgun wedding | 04:38 |
| fsmithred | bb in a few minutes | 04:39 |
| drwhite | well, as I had said, AT THE START it would be closed source. But as per your reactions I can see that I would have to test it all myself before I do anything further to make it open source. | 04:40 |
| drwhite | Will Devuan ever be able to run on ARM devices? | 04:50 |
| fsmithred | or hire someone to test it | 04:57 |
| fsmithred | more eyes=better | 04:57 |
| fsmithred | you having trouble with the arm images? | 04:58 |
| fsmithred | bed time for me. good luck with it. browsers are not easy. | 05:07 |
| drwhite | I mean for installing it. | 05:07 |
| drwhite | I want to install, to have my own partitioning. | 05:08 |
| drwhite | not an image to put on an SD and just have the SD as the drive | 05:08 |
| drwhite | Sorry, should have been more explicit | 05:08 |
| drwhite | To be more accurate, I'm installing onto a device and I have X amount of space available, but I need the primary partitions for the bootloader that I use to instanciate the hardware. | 05:11 |
| golinux | drwhite: https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/embedded/ | 05:18 |
| drwhite | golinux: Are they the installers or the actual SD card images to put on? i.e. Is it booting to an install iso? | 05:19 |
| golinux | I have no idea. | 05:20 |
| drwhite | typically, with those images, from what I have seen of them for those devices, they are already built and ready to image onto an SD Card and then insert and it runs. | 05:21 |
| golinux | #devuan-arm | 05:21 |
| golinux | I have towers with spinning disks. | 05:21 |
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