libera/#devuan-dev/ Tuesday, 2018-11-06

KatolaZamesser: you here?12:27
amesserKatolaZ: he're i'am13:53
LeePenJust been reading the debian-devel libpam-systemd/elogind thread.15:18
LeePenIf we remove Provides libpam-systemd from elogind to make acceptable to Debian could we have a Devuan specific package which Depends libpam-elogind and Provides libpam-systemd to glue it all together?15:22
amessergood question15:23
amesserpoint is, from debian view point either libpam-elogind or libpam-systemd should be installed. Never both15:23
amesserimho would be better to have a more general virtual package, e.g "session-management-login" which is provided by libpam-systemd nd libpam-elogind15:25
amesserapplication should depend on that then, and not on libpam-systemd15:25
LeePenYes, that is cleaner, but as is pointed out in the thread libpam-system provides more than libpam-elogind. They are not equivalent.15:27
amesserthat is true15:27
amesserbut no one is using libpam-systemd directly15:27
amesserlibsystemd maybe, but libpam-systemd is nothing else that the pam module which is executed on login15:28
KatolaZbut we can't rebuild all the packages that Depends: libpam-systemd15:28
KatolaZ...15:28
amesserno application should depend on that module anyway15:28
KatolaZthat's why we decided to make elogind Provides: libpam-systemd15:28
amessersince you can not use it outside of pam :-)15:28
amesserKatolaZ: what we could do is make a glue oacket, maybe15:28
amesserpacket15:29
KatolaZhow?15:29
KatolaZit'a a packet that provides15:29
amesserjust an empty packet: libpam-elogind-glue15:30
amesserProvides libpam-systemd15:30
KatolaZand Depends: elogind15:30
amesserRequires libpam-elogind15:30
amesserah, yes15:30
KatolaZwell it's a possibility15:30
LeePenYes, that it what I meant15:30
KatolaZwouldn't change much for Devuan15:30
KatolaZbut wouldn't solve the problem in Debian either15:30
KatolaZsince you have to pin down libpam-systemd15:30
KatolaZ(it's the name of an actual package, remember)15:31
KatolaZwe don't have this problem in Debian since libpamsystemd is banned15:31
KatolaZbut in Debian you would have a concrete package with the same name of a virtual feature15:31
KatolaZand I guess that is not allowed by Policy15:31
KatolaZ(but I might be wrong on the latter point)15:32
LeePenI looked last week and the Policy doesn't ban it15:32
LeePenbut clearly it is not favoured in the thread of the last few days.15:32
KatolaZok, but that package should Provides, Breaks, and Conflict with libpamsystemd15:32
amesserI don't like having extra glue package in Devuan. Its curing the problem at the wrong place. But I could live with it.15:33
LeePenYes. I suppose it all comes down to what we want to achieve.15:33
LeePenIf we are happy to maintain a slightly different lp-elogind in Devuan15:34
KatolaZthe problem I see atm is how any package that Depends: libpam-systemd can use elogind (in Debian)15:34
KatolaZagain, it's not a problem in Devuan15:35
KatolaZsince there is no such package except elogind15:35
KatolaZbut this is not gonna work in Debian15:35
KatolaZunless you ask rdeps to adjust their deps on something that should be yet be agreed upon...15:35
KatolaZ:\15:35
amesserWhen they want go without systemd in Debian, they also need the glue package :-)15:35
LeePenThe debian-devel thread recommends a MBF15:36
amesserBut maybe we can have at least elogind package itself the same one for Debian and Devuan15:36
amesserMBF?15:36
LeePenMass bug filling15:36
KatolaZmass bug-filing15:37
amesserhmm15:37
amessergonna read more about this concept :-)15:37
amesseranyway, if it helps the debian people, we can simply make such a glue package. Maybe such a glue can be more global, not only libpam-elogind but also depend on polkit-elogind.... This will help to prevent the consolekit/elogind polkit mismatch issues we had with ascii in the first place15:40
amesserwill be off for a while..15:42
amessersee ya later this evening15:42
LeePenYes. KatolaZ: you said such a glue package wouldn't change much for Devuan, but it would mean we didn't have to recompile all the Debian packages which depend on libpam-systemd15:43
LeePenOr have I misunderstood you?15:43
amesserwe dont have to at the moment either15:44
amessersince we have Provides: libpam-systemd at the moment15:44
amesseras i said, no one directly accesses libpam-systemd15:44
amesserthis depenedency just makes sure, that systemd-logind/elogind session management is installed in the system15:45
LeePenYes, this is only an issue if we remove the Provides libpam-systemd to get elogind into Debian15:45
amesserah ok, sry15:45
KatolaZLeePen: we don't need to recompile any package in devuan if we have something that Provides: libpam-systemd15:46
LeePenYes. And if we drop Provides libpam-systemd from15:47
KatolaZbut apparently there is no agreement in Debian about the fact that elogind can effectively Provide: libpam-systemd15:47
KatolaZ'cause they have said that some packages need libpam-systemd AND `systemd --user` in order to work properly15:47
LeePenelogind to get it into Debian we could use a Devuan specific15:47
LeePenglue package to mean we didn't have to15:48
LeePenrecompile the Debian pacakges that still only depended on lp-systemd15:49
kilobytethis is bikeshed naming, but a name picked by smcv (one of systemd maintainers) was: Depends: default-logind | logind15:49
kilobytewrt systemd --user: as far as I know, all such packages already depend on systemd directly15:50
KatolaZTBH, I wouldn't change elogind in Devuan unless we know that the change will be meaningful (i.e., that we can use the same package as Debian)15:56
KatolaZI mean, if we change something and then in the end we still need to maintain out own version of elogind, there is not much point into it15:57
KatolaZs/out/our15:57
LeePenYes, absolutely.15:58
LeePenSo I am suggesting this as part of getting elogind into Debian so15:59
KatolaZyes, I get it15:59
LeePenthat non-systemd inits are more viable there.15:59
KatolaZbut there is apparently some resistance to that16:00
LeePenThere may be, but I couldn't see that in the d-devel thread. Suggestions for what needs to be done..16:01
LeePenHave you heard/seen positive resistance?16:02
KatolaZdunno16:18
KatolaZthe requirement to change the dep to default-logind | logind looks like a MBF16:18
LeePenYes, but even that could only happen after elogind was in Debian. It is a bit chicken and egg.16:23
LeePenMaybe I am getting ahead of myself. I will finish 239.1 for Devuan and see where we are then.16:49
LeePenThanks16:49
KatolaZthank you LeePen16:49
KatolaZthanks a lot for you work on that16:49
KatolaZ:)16:49
KatolaZI really appreciate that16:49

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.17.0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at https://mg.pov.lt/irclog2html/!