bb|hcb | Does someone know what happened with the announce pad? Last version looked fine, but now it is missing parts | 05:30 |
---|---|---|
bb|hcb | Also we need to decide where it will be a good idea to post that; and who will post it | 05:32 |
golinux | Shouldn't that be on #devuan-dev? | 05:37 |
bb|hcb | Yes, most probably, I will cross post there too. | 05:40 |
bb|hcb | In the meantime I have restored the history | 05:40 |
blueness | let me know when/if you have adopted eudev. i'll put a notice up on the README. Give me a redirectin. | 16:46 |
bb|hcb | blueness: sure, thanks! I believe it will not be a good idea to continue using the existing git, and we will most probably configure a fork. But we need to decide where | 16:57 |
ncopa | hi! someone is stepping up to maintain eudev? | 19:30 |
golinux | Hopefully it will be a collective effort | 19:35 |
ncopa | i think alpine would be happy to contribute but i don't think we have anyone from us that wants to take the responsibility for it | 19:37 |
Ariadne | what is the proposed governance for the project? | 19:40 |
Ariadne | who will be committer, how will decisions be made? how closely will systemd-udevd be followed, with its "poetteringisms" and whatnot? | 19:49 |
Arsen | fwiw it hasn't been very followed for quite a few years | 19:50 |
Ariadne | news to me | 19:53 |
ncopa | im willing to contribute with eudev, and i think more alpine devs are, but i cannot take any leader role or set up a governance for a such project, or make releases of it | 19:54 |
Ariadne | i am very skeptical | 19:54 |
Arsen | Ariadne: what of? | 20:02 |
Ariadne | i am very skeptical that this proposed takeover will produce a udev implementation that remains compatible with programs dependent on libudev | 20:03 |
Arsen | that's a reasonable concern with such an unpredictable upstream | 20:03 |
Ariadne | you are already writing a new reality, one that is divorced from truth: the majority of eudev commits have been cherry-picks from systemd | 20:04 |
Arsen | by "didn't follow" I didn't mean diverged, I meant fell out of date with | 20:04 |
Ariadne | is there any plan to bring it back to date? | 20:05 |
Arsen | not sure about a plan (I am not an authority on that) but there was an attempt previously (https://github.com/gentoo/eudev/tree/eudev-4) and one of my own more recently (https://git.sr.ht/~arsen/eudev-new) which I haven't fully elaborated on (I'm moving currently, so it's a busy month) | 20:07 |
Arsen | the latter is in no way connected to the original eudev, other than by causality (and by blueness giving me the idea to just re-fork upstream udev and try cleaning the code up) | 20:08 |
Arsen | just to put into perspective how incomplete the latter is, I haven't gotten a chance to test it yet or replace glibc specifics | 20:09 |
gnu_srs | In my opinion the best way forward is to continue the upstream eudev path, nor trying to single out udev for every systemd release. | 20:10 |
Arsen | that's probably the easiest path | 20:10 |
Arsen | IMO, it's unlikely systemd-udev will be changing enough for source-level compatability to become a hard goal to achieve in libudev | 20:11 |
gnu_srs | FYI: I'm the current maintainer of eudev for Devuan. And I could help out with a new upstream of eudev, preferably group maintained :) | 20:12 |
Ariadne | okay, so, will this eudev follow systemd changes or not | 20:13 |
golinux | It will be what we choose it to be. | 20:19 |
Ariadne | and that is? | 20:19 |
golinux | By collaboration | 20:19 |
golinux | afk | 20:20 |
Ariadne | i mean, you have to understand my skepticism, i've read enough of devuan mailing lists and irc logs to understand that you guys really hate lennart, and so i find it hard to believe a devuan eudev will actually follow what systemd does | 20:20 |
Arsen | that sounds like an insufficient reason to lose source-level compatibility over | 20:20 |
Arsen | I was more concerned with the upstream doing something insane like rewriting the entire interface | 20:21 |
Ariadne | i also find it difficult to be personally comfortable with participating in the maintenance of eudev without clear definitions of how "collaboration" will work, and an explicitly stated goal of source level compatibility with systemd-udevd releases | 20:22 |
bb|hcb | I am happy to see more people around :) | 20:23 |
bb|hcb | All the projects using eudev have benefited from gentoo's efforts and kept it in a working shape. I think that we shall first focus on continuing this effort - cherrypicking patches from systemd udev and updating the hwdb | 20:25 |
golinux | Well, | 20:25 |
golinux | oops | 20:26 |
bb|hcb | Deviating from that path, without a specific clear goal list, would be an big effort without clear deliverables | 20:26 |
Ariadne | will this be a devuan project, or its own project? | 20:26 |
user____ | You speak the architectspeak and walk the ... plank? | 20:26 |
user____ | > bb|hcb | 20:26 |
Ariadne | what does "architectspeak" mean? | 20:27 |
user____ | Meeting slang for "high level" project "managers" who make up a lot of stuff to sound interesting (sorry bb|hcb) | 20:27 |
* user____ be quiet now, since new here | 20:27 | |
bb|hcb | About hwdb, I think that we can script and half automate that unless some unpleasant changes happen in systemd udev... | 20:28 |
Ariadne | in summary, here are the three must haves for alpine, in my opinion | 20:28 |
Ariadne | - musl compatibility | 20:29 |
Arsen | eudev was sparked to fix the lack of portability in systemd-udevd | 20:29 |
Ariadne | - integration of new changes from systemd (so that we don't have to patch things, because if we have to patch things, then why bother with eudev at all when we can build something better?) | 20:29 |
bb|hcb | user____: I am sorry if I don't express myself properly; I am not a native english speaker... | 20:29 |
Arsen | new changes are few and far between, for the most part, and are probably best tackled as they happen | 20:30 |
Ariadne | - commitment to community standards that are aligned with alpine's | 20:30 |
user____ | give me `cat /etc/hotplug.sh >/proc/sys/kernel/hotplug` | 20:30 |
Arsen | that's just not a great idea | 20:30 |
user____ | Back to the future. AND it still works on some systems like openwrt. | 20:30 |
user____ | "community standards aligned with alpine's"? | 20:31 |
user____ | And it should be echo not cat above. | 20:31 |
Arsen | the future is being fork bombed on boot? :P | 20:31 |
Ariadne | in this context, that means, we are not interested in hearing about complaints concerning lennartp | 20:31 |
Ariadne | e.g. we do not want a collaborative environment redolent of some of the more (in)famous devuan mailing list threads | 20:32 |
golinux | Ariadne: Which mailing list are you following? | 20:34 |
Ariadne | DNG | 20:34 |
Ariadne | i will admit in the past year, it has been considerably more chill | 20:35 |
user____ | Since certain people were booted? That is not chill, that is the chill of death (of free speech). | 20:35 |
Arsen | this is going in the wrong direction | 20:36 |
Ariadne | i don't know if anybody was booted or not | 20:36 |
Ariadne | my point is that a technically-focused collaborative environment is critical | 20:36 |
golinux | Very little devuan development happens on that channel. There is also a devuan-dev list | 20:36 |
Arsen | ultimately, the author of the code or the interface here does not matter, what matters is that libudev has a nonneglegable amount of reverse dependencies and it'd be in the best interest of all maintainers to retain source-level compatibility in that department | 20:37 |
Arsen | as I said, udev is not a rapidly changing componentso extensions or compatibility issues should also be nonproblematic | 20:38 |
ncopa | I guess "community standards aligned with alpine's" means that we need to be able to cooperate in a sane way | 20:38 |
Ariadne | precisely | 20:39 |
Ariadne | we have limited time to commit to this effort, we would prefer to stay focused on technical details | 20:39 |
ncopa | i havent followed upstream systemd-udev development but i would expect it to not change to often too fast | 20:39 |
user____ | haha | 20:39 |
ncopa | what i read up here ^^^ looks promising imho | 20:40 |
Ariadne | i mean, i'm open to it, but i am also working on an MR to replace eudev with systemd-udev with openembedded patches | 20:40 |
Ariadne | . o O (i wonder if systemd-udev + openembedded patches is a viable starting point for new eudev?) | 20:41 |
sam_ | our intention is to just keep doing that unless/until there's a problem | 20:41 |
sam_ | and I don't know if there ever will be or not | 20:41 |
sam_ | yeah, that was my instinct | 20:41 |
user____ | keep an eye on others who already do this? https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/what-is-going-to-happen-now-that-eudev-is-not-going-to-be-mantained-4175700098/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=pmd_tJ8Qu_GFqvIoKBM2OQ4ZsQveGGFgIWM5hG8VCEHwe6Q-1631558431-0-gqNtZGzNApCjcnBszQY9 | 20:41 |
bb|hcb | I would prefer to skip discussing systemd's authors; let's stay technical and discuss how to organize stuff and how to do the actual thing | 20:41 |
ncopa | +1 | 20:41 |
user____ | bb|hcb: agree, I'll do the cussing off screen. | 20:42 |
Arsen | ncopa: I've been bending the systemd repository in various ways last week, there's only a few thousand commits relevant in the udev code | 20:42 |
Arsen | so, yes, there's not much going on in that department | 20:43 |
Arsen | (in terms of rapid change) | 20:43 |
bb|hcb | sam_: the most quircky thing will be if the libudev's interface start adding more stuff; but let's not cry for things that are yet to happen | 20:43 |
bb|hcb | Ariadne: I wouldn't mind conforming to Alpine's community standards (I am not aware what they are) but as long as your team contributes the major part of the effors, that sounds sane | 20:45 |
Ariadne | basically don't be a dick | 20:45 |
user____ | What about people who's name is Dick? | 20:46 |
* user____ requests he be ignored, due to late hour here | 20:46 | |
bb|hcb | It would be in everyone's interest to produce eudev that is compatible and usabe in Devuan, Alpine, etc. | 20:47 |
Arsen | and compatible with systemd's interface | 20:47 |
Ariadne | from our perspective, eudev is preferable because we don't want to open pandora's box of introducing systemd components to alpine | 20:47 |
Ariadne | some will want additional systemd components | 20:48 |
Ariadne | and before you know it, alpine will be on systemd | 20:48 |
bb|hcb | user____: please keep it OT | 20:48 |
Ariadne | so, we are willing to commit some time to this | 20:48 |
Ariadne | i would prefer that eudev be distro-neutral in terms of leadership | 20:48 |
Arsen | fwiw, due to udevs unique position among systemd components in that it must run before systemd even can, it's decently separable | 20:49 |
Ariadne | indeed | 20:49 |
Arsen | the "dependency" it has on systemd are utility functions and a few checks | 20:49 |
ncopa | a few thousand commits... ugh. | 20:49 |
Arsen | that is over the span of a decade and a half | 20:50 |
Ariadne | what alpine does not want | 20:50 |
sam_ | bb|hcb: cross that bridge when it comes to it, for sure | 20:50 |
Ariadne | is to be stuck holding the bag unilaterally | 20:50 |
Ariadne | e.g. we want eudev to be maintained by an independent team | 20:50 |
ncopa | also, me personally don't have the time or energy to take the leader role for a such project | 20:50 |
Ariadne | me neither | 20:51 |
ncopa | but i'd be happy to contribute | 20:51 |
Ariadne | i have health issues, and bluntly, i don't want to deal with end users from distros outside of alpine | 20:51 |
Arsen | likewise | 20:52 |
Ariadne | in long run, though, i think alpine prefers a non-udev solution | 20:52 |
ncopa | but i think thats not realistic in any near future | 20:52 |
Ariadne | but that does not solve the immediate need | 20:53 |
Ariadne | we should also optimise the release cadence for distros, probably once per quarter | 20:54 |
ncopa | and even a hypotheitcal future non-udev solution would probably be better not being an alpine specific thing either | 20:54 |
Ariadne | yes, we don't want it to be alpine-specific, same as how we want s6-rc to remain independent | 20:54 |
Ariadne | there is already too much alpine-specific things | 20:55 |
skarnet | so I'm going to mention it here as well: it is likely that in a decently near future, mdevd + libudev-zero becomes a fully viable alternative to the udev model | 20:55 |
skarnet | so basically, whatever choice is made for eudev, it does not have to be forever | 20:56 |
Arsen | oh hello | 20:56 |
Arsen | skarnet: is mdevd using netlink and uevent? iirc, mdev (no d) was not | 20:57 |
skarnet | mdev was used as a hotplug helper, mdevd listens to the netlink | 20:57 |
skarnet | and also supports all event types (whereas mdev only supports add and remove) | 20:57 |
skarnet | (technically in the future, the release that adds that support will happen some time this month, it's in git though) | 20:58 |
Ariadne | yes, longer term, skarnet's work is what we want to use | 20:58 |
Ariadne | since skarnet is very familiar with alpine and has made lots of great stuff that is in alpine :P | 20:58 |
skarnet | none of which is being used at the moment but we don't talk about that | 20:59 |
Ariadne | but for now, we are happy, i think, to take the journey with you, as long as things are reasonably sane | 20:59 |
Ariadne | skarnet: hmm, utmps is in use, jirutka is working on the final integration bits | 20:59 |
skarnet | I'll believe it when I see it :P | 20:59 |
skarnet | (I have high hopes for this time!) | 20:59 |
skarnet | anyway I'm cool with that, it means I'm not (yet) the one lagging | 21:00 |
Ariadne | well, usually when i have time to work on integration, some new fire happens | 21:01 |
Ariadne | or openssl 3.0 is released, and we focus on that because getting that vile openssl license out of alpine is desirable | 21:03 |
Arsen | I'm happy to see a distro use skarnet goodies ;) | 21:03 |
Arsen | for diversity, at the very least | 21:03 |
skarnet | if you're a devuan dev, there's an easy way for you to see a distro use skarnet goodies, you know. :P | 21:04 |
Ariadne | we did quite a bit of public relations effort to get skarnet a sponsor for s6 | 21:04 |
Ariadne | i guess it worked in the end | 21:04 |
Ariadne | his website says s6 is sponsored now :D | 21:04 |
skarnet | it is | 21:04 |
skarnet | well, the work on s6-rc is | 21:04 |
skarnet | which is the most important part at the moment :) | 21:05 |
Ariadne | i dunno | 21:07 |
Ariadne | i'm more of an ideas person than an integration person | 21:07 |
Ariadne | to be honest | 21:07 |
skarnet | don't worry about it | 21:08 |
skarnet | if all goes well in November my contract is going to be something like 'write stuff that makes Alpine better' | 21:08 |
skarnet | so everything will be covered and I'll be able to help directly | 21:09 |
Ariadne | damn | 21:10 |
Ariadne | i'll recommend viagra to all my friends who have that problem | 21:11 |
Ariadne | so that pfizer makes their money back | 21:11 |
Ariadne | ^_^ | 21:11 |
skarnet | I don't think they earn royalties on that anymore | 21:11 |
Ariadne | oh | 21:11 |
skarnet | there are generics all over the place anyway | 21:11 |
Ariadne | i dont have that problem, so i dont know anything about it | 21:12 |
skarnet | just wait a decade or two :P | 21:12 |
Ariadne | if i still exist in a decade or two i will be surprised | 21:13 |
gnu_srs | maybe you can move your offtopic stuff to some other channel? | 21:13 |
golinux | gnu_srs: Thank you | 21:14 |
Arsen | right, eudev | 21:14 |
Arsen | the upstream is slow moving, it can be considered feature complete in my opinion, but the eudev downstream is quite out of date, really | 21:15 |
Arsen | Ariadne: do you have numbers about how many patches are needed to work around features missing in eudev? | 21:15 |
Arsen | sam_: I imagine you might know too? | 21:15 |
Ariadne | right now? there arent any packages in alpine that i know of which have to work around anything | 21:15 |
Ariadne | my question was, if there is new functions | 21:16 |
Ariadne | will we merge them from systemd or not | 21:16 |
Arsen | I definitely would | 21:16 |
Arsen | there's no reason to diverge | 21:16 |
Ariadne | gnu_srs: what do you think about new functionality from systemd, if any comes up? | 21:17 |
sam_ | none right now; the main worry for us has been "someone reports a bug and we have no idea if it ended up being fixed upstream in systemd, and nobody is keeping track of commits upstream in systemd" | 21:17 |
sam_ | I don't think anything is explicitly missing | 21:18 |
skarnet | is there a place, a document, that sums up and/or explains the precise differences between systemd-udevd and eudev ? | 21:18 |
Ariadne | sam_: how much time are you willing to contribute to maintenance? will gentoo continue to ship eudev? | 21:18 |
Arsen | skarnet: no, to my awareness | 21:19 |
Arsen | any differences are probably unintentional, and results of a lack of maintenance | 21:19 |
Ariadne | sorry for the questions, i am just trying to ascertain who is committing to what | 21:27 |
bb|hcb | Ariadne: New functionality should definitely be merged somehow; at least to the level that keeps all dependants running, preferably w/o patches | 21:30 |
bb|hcb | skarnet: I am not aware about such a document; blueness may know, will ask him when he is back | 21:30 |
Ariadne | okay | 21:33 |
Ariadne | is there a list of interested distros, etc | 21:33 |
Ariadne | i mean, we're talking, its a good talk, but i like plans | 21:33 |
golinux | It seems that devuan tracks upstream changes. This just arrived to my inbox: | 21:36 |
golinux | The version of eudev-dbgsym (previous version 3.2.9-9) in Devuan suite | 21:36 |
golinux | chimaera has changed, as instructed by britney. | 21:36 |
golinux | chimaera remove: eudev-dbgsym 3.2.9-9 arm64 | 21:36 |
golinux | DAK managing the Devuan archive | 21:36 |
Arsen | i'm here for a nonlinux distro that's interested, so that's one, though, it shouldn't be much impact | 21:37 |
Arsen | the notable thing is that we have a non-glibc non-musl libc | 21:37 |
Arsen | though that should be our problem, targetting musl works for us | 21:37 |
skarnet | what libc are you folks using? | 21:37 |
Arsen | mlibc | 21:37 |
Arsen | I mean, I'm also here due to interest in linux distros I participate in or use, but people who can represent those are also here | 21:38 |
Ariadne | im confused | 21:38 |
Ariadne | why would a nonlinux distro | 21:39 |
Ariadne | care about eudev | 21:39 |
Ariadne | the entire value proposition of eudev | 21:39 |
bb|hcb | With my Devuan user hat on, I think that losing eudev will not be a good thing, that is why I have started this effort. In case mdev(d) could become a replacement/alternative - the better; OTOH with Devuan following Debian release cycle, there is time before current testing becomes stable | 21:39 |
Ariadne | is consuming kevents/uevents | 21:39 |
Arsen | compatability, our userspace is meant to be (source-level, at libc and pseudofs layers) compatible with linux | 21:39 |
Arsen | not quite there yet but we're working towards it | 21:40 |
Ariadne | does your kernel produce kevents/uevents though ? | 21:40 |
Arsen | our posix-server does, yes | 21:40 |
Ariadne | why not just have a real devfs | 21:40 |
Ariadne | and use libudev-zero | 21:40 |
Ariadne | udev is a giant hack because linus hates devfs | 21:41 |
Arsen | I'm not a fan of that design, I believe (for flexibility) this is a job best fit for userspace (though netlink wouldn't be my first choice), and again, for compatibility | 21:41 |
Ariadne | devfs is the actually correct solution for a number of reasons | 21:41 |
Arsen | libudev-zero is also a few years younger | 21:43 |
Arsen | (than our project) | 21:43 |
bb|hcb | Ariadne: Completely agree on the action plan; we have planned an announcement about this effort, not yet sent. I believe that this project should be as open as possible, next action is to agree on an acceptable git hosting place and then we can dive into the tech details, work on them and release. About how things are done, maybe a more conservative approach will be best | 21:43 |
Ariadne | i think that the project should be independent of devuan, or alpine, etc | 21:43 |
Arsen | ^ I do agree | 21:43 |
Arsen | a small set of neutral maintainers should be picked to merge patches incoming from distributions, to centralize quality control and code review | 21:44 |
Arsen | (neutral meaning disassociated from their respective project, not removed from distributions) | 21:45 |
Ariadne | meaning this channel should be renamed | 21:48 |
Ariadne | at some point :) | 21:48 |
gnu_srs | Upstream version of gentoo eudev is 3.2.10. I've looked into that and compared to 3.2.9, and not much has changed. | 21:48 |
gnu_srs | Therefore I have decided to release 3.2.10 yet. | 21:49 |
gnu_srs | I think the person to answer how lose eudev is to systemd-udev is blueness. | 21:50 |
gnu_srs | s/lose/close/ | 21:50 |
gnu_srs | There are alternatives like mdev, vdev etc. I know vdev was promising, but the upstream author abandoned it. | 21:51 |
gnu_srs | And for mdev I know nothing. | 21:52 |
Arsen | mdev, without the d, is probably not viable at all | 21:52 |
gnu_srs | Do you have a link to mdev(d)? | 21:53 |
Arsen | and, again, with upstream udev such a slow moving target, it's probably best to just keep source compatibility | 21:53 |
Arsen | https://skarnet.org/software/mdevd/ https://git.busybox.net/busybox/plain/docs/mdev.txt | 21:54 |
gnu_srs | Arsen: I agree systemd-udev is a slow moving target. Therefore continuing eudev is feasible. | 21:55 |
skarnet | mdev is a part of busybox, originally written by landley and intended to be only used as a hotplug helper | 21:56 |
skarnet | later, someone (not vda, but a regular busybox contributor, idr who) added a -d option to mdev so it could run as a daemon, but it was still a hack | 21:56 |
skarnet | mdevd is my from-scratch implementation of a daemon that uses the same config file format, it is meant to be a full replacement for mdev | 21:57 |
Arsen | it's probably more useful to parse udev rules nowadays | 21:58 |
Arsen | though uglier | 21:58 |
skarnet | yes, except I didn't want to write another udevd | 21:58 |
skarnet | if you want udevd, you have two implementations to choose from | 21:59 |
Arsen | hm, I'm not sure what there is to improve on or change in that area | 21:59 |
skarnet | and I don't intend to _ever_ run behind systemd as far as features go | 21:59 |
skarnet | well, I am sure | 21:59 |
Ariadne | en64sp1 or whatever | 22:00 |
Ariadne | the nic renaming thing it does | 22:00 |
Ariadne | is one thing that could be improved | 22:00 |
skarnet | udev is as poetterwarish as it gets: the way it is designed enforces the architecture and locks users in | 22:00 |
Ariadne | by removing it | 22:00 |
skarnet | if you want to implement something compatible to udev, no matter how you proceed, you will end up with a copy of systemd-udevd | 22:01 |
Ariadne | (this is something alpine defanged already) | 22:01 |
Ariadne | if you use eudev on alpine, eth0 remains eth0 | 22:02 |
skarnet | I wanted an independent device manager that didn't have to implement libudev, and that's what I wrote | 22:02 |
skarnet | in parallel to it, illility wrote libudev-zero, which is a libudev emulation | 22:02 |
skarnet | s/ty/ti/ | 22:02 |
gnu_srs | skarnet: Is eudev also: designed to enforce the architecture and locks users in? just curious. | 22:03 |
Ariadne | yes | 22:03 |
skarnet | gnu_srs: eudev follows the systemd-udevd model. It is a copy of it. It is a victim of that architecture | 22:03 |
skarnet | it has to implement the systemd-udevd architecture whether it wants to or not | 22:03 |
skarnet | libudev, which maintains a stateful layer with a complex protocol, is the real problem here | 22:04 |
gnu_srs | Maybe somebody could continue the work of vdev. That effort was really promising. | 22:05 |
skarnet | libudev-zero solves that problem by decoupling the stateful layer from the device manager | 22:05 |
skarnet | libudev-zero can now be used with any device manager daemon, and mdevd is a good candidate | 22:05 |
skarnet | gnu_srs: maybe you should volunteer to do it, since you're motivated! | 22:05 |
gnu_srs | Just a stupid question: Many architectures don't even use *dev*. Are they too ancient or just don't they need such features? | 22:08 |
Arsen | hm, that should be an architecture independent linux thing | 22:10 |
golinux | Ariadne: eth0 remains eth0 on Devuan also | 22:10 |
Arsen | any example? | 22:11 |
gnu_srs | When installing Devuan/eudev: Warning: eudev will default to the older network; interface names, such as eth0 or wlan0. | 22:13 |
gnu_srs | If you use the new names, such as enp0s3, you will need to add the following to the boot command: net.ifnames=1 | 22:13 |
Ariadne | golinux: well yes, that seems reasonable | 22:14 |
Arsen | golinux: what were devuans plans with eudev? | 22:17 |
bb|hcb | eudev was under gentoo since its existence, but that does not mean it was unwelcoming and not helpful to other distros. I do not believe that renaming stuff right now is what is important. And I do not mind making that independent - there never was a plan for any kind of dependence, just shared interest. | 22:17 |
golinux | Arsen: I am not the one to answer technical questions. I serve more as facilitator and historian. | 22:20 |
Arsen | ah, is there anyone from devuan who is right now | 22:20 |
bb|hcb | skarnet: getting mdevd into Devuan should most preferably happen by adding it to Debian; then it will automatically get included. Only if that can not happen for one or another reason, there is the other way | 22:21 |
bb|hcb | Arsen: The basic plan is to continue maintaining it. If we start thinking about that in two years when current testing is going to become stable and there are tons of changes to merge/implement it will not be possible | 22:22 |
golinux | Arsen: Yes. gnu_srs and bb|hcb | 22:23 |
skarnet | bb|hcb: I can probably get mdevd into Debian as mechanism, but certainly not as the primary device manager | 22:24 |
skarnet | I will ask Shengjing what he can do (the Debian maintainer of skaware packages, he does his best to navigate the braindead and skaware-hostile Debian policies) | 22:25 |
bb|hcb | skarnet: Obviously. But only after getting it included, derivates may consider taking it as optional/default | 22:26 |
skarnet | I'll get it included | 22:26 |
bb|hcb | There was some effort to include eudev in Debian, but I didn't track the progress, maybe gnu_srs can shed some light | 22:27 |
Arsen | bb|hcb: what would continued maintance entail? | 22:28 |
Arsen | bug fixed and synchronisation with libudev apis? | 22:28 |
bb|hcb | also hwdb | 22:28 |
bb|hcb | what else, I don't see much more... | 22:28 |
Arsen | that can be done independent of distros by a few people | 22:29 |
Arsen | though, again, there's consideration to be made on how to update udev to match with systemd, if at all | 22:30 |
bb|hcb | I agree on that, but all changes there should be tracked, because there may be un-reported bugfixes | 22:30 |
Arsen | that one is a difficult problem to solve | 22:31 |
bb|hcb | Just tracking the bugs is not enough... :( | 22:31 |
Arsen | forwarding patches to systemd, if any arise, and checking whether their respective bugs still exist upstream | 22:32 |
bb|hcb | From what I have seen in the codebase, the deviation is high and posting patches upstream is an extra effort; if someone is willing to do, well, but I prefer to skip on that effort | 22:36 |
Arsen | the code itself can probably be reasonably ported over | 22:54 |
Arsen | i haven't ran diffs between the two, but I doubt it's major enough for it to be completely infeasible | 22:55 |
bb|hcb | Obviously but that is extra | 22:57 |
bb|hcb | The main point is to have eudev for our preferred distros :) | 22:59 |
Arsen | it'd be in good faith to backport patches and forward issues | 23:03 |
Arsen | and again due to the nature of the component, those are probably decently uncommon | 23:03 |
Arsen | how many bug reports has devuan had about eudev? | 23:03 |
bb|hcb | I do not say I am against that, yes, that is a good idea but someone have to do it | 23:08 |
bb|hcb | about bugs maybe gnu_srs can say? not too many, as far as i remember | 23:08 |
Arsen | well, whoever is tasked with maintenance might as well :P | 23:10 |
Arsen | with help of others ofc | 23:10 |
bb|hcb | Do you have an idea where I can see Alpine community standards? | 23:10 |
Arsen | Ariadne: ^ could you step in for this, please | 23:12 |
bb|hcb | From what is written above, I get to know that Ariadne and ncopa are from Alpine, skarnet is developing mdevd, me, gnu_srs, golinux adn plasma41 are from Devuan | 23:20 |
bb|hcb | I also package some stuff for Debian and Fedora... But that is irrelevant here, if someone wants links, lets do that privately | 23:22 |
* plasma41 is summoned | 23:22 | |
Arsen | paper_: is there interest from your side? | 23:23 |
gnu_srs | bb|hcb: I tried to get a sponsor for eudev in Debian, but nobody from debian-init-diversity responded :( | 23:28 |
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