libera/#devuan/ Friday, 2018-06-29

fugitiveo/01:39
RealUnix28200Hello01:40
fugitivei have one question.. how to install nvidia drivers on ascii ? :) those worked on jessie, but when i try installing, it complains about dependdencies, all nvidia-*01:40
RealUnix28200cc01:40
fugitivehi01:40
gnarfacefugitive: did your emember to enable non-free and contrib in your sources.list, then run `apt-get update`?01:46
fugitivehm, seems not.. i thought it is issue in my sources file.. let me see01:48
fugitivecontrib was there, guess i missed non-free01:49
gnarfacepersonally i disable them both again after adding the nvidia drivers01:50
gnarfaceyou don't really want anything from there surprise-updating on you01:50
terrycQ: how "safe" is it to upgrade Debian-Stretch to Dev-uan-Jessie by just doing the /etc/apt/sources.list changes and the update/upgrade/dis-upgrade?01:50
gnarfaceterryc: it'll probably work.  your mileage may vary01:51
gnarfaceterryc: (depending on what you had installed, much of it may need to be uninstalled first)01:52
golinuxHave a look here: https://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/01:52
fugitiveseems it works. will it work after - will see. :) thanks gnarface01:52
gnarfacenp01:52
fsmithredgo from stretch to ascii, not jessie01:53
gnarfacefor nvidia drivers, if you install "nvidia-driver" and "libgl1-nvidia-glx" then most of the rest of what you need should get dragged in automatically01:53
fugitivehm, i used 340 legacy, I believe i used those before, but yh, it pulled all of pkgs01:54
fugitiveok, brb, might be last time seeing X :D01:57
fugitivethis passed well. thanks again gnarface ;-)02:05
fugitivebumbleebe works02:05
bozoniusI'm fairly sure at this point that the firmware drivers (non-free) for my NIC made a difference02:08
bozoniusfairly sure, not 100%02:08
bozoniusthe easiest thing was adding them to the install thumb drive before beginning the install. stick them in /firmware off the root directory (not in a subdir of /firmware, I found out)02:09
bozoniusthat way, the driver is found automatically and the install goes smoothly02:09
bozoniusI can ping forever in that installation.  In the former one, where I had a problem of some kind, it will ping google a few dozen times then fail02:10
gnarfacefugitive: glad to hear it02:10
bozoniusI then tried installing the firmware into the original installation, but even after a reboot, it still fails after a few dozen pings02:11
bozoniusso it may or may not be the firmware02:11
gnarfacebozonius: really weird, hard to say what's going on.  that hypothesis makes complete sense except doesn't really explain the mystery DHCP requests - but i guess that still theoretically could be the hardware's fault.  is it some sort of server motherboard with a IPMI?02:11
bozonius760GM-P23 (msi board)02:12
bozoniusit's a rtl 8111 NIC02:12
filiphi is cpu fan temperature around 45-60 normal :/02:12
gnarfacebozonius: note that the firmware may need to be in the initrd.img to work, which means if the firmware package doesn't regenerate it, you may need to run `update-initramfs -u` again manually02:12
bozoniusI went to Realtek's support site, but nothing that seems relevant02:12
bozoniusah, yes!02:13
bozoniusI'll try that02:13
bozoniusI really want to know02:13
bozoniusbbs02:13
bozoniusoh... what is the command again? (sorry)02:13
gnarfacefilip: it depends on the hardware02:13
filipnow it's 56 when i turned hexchat on02:13
gnarfacebozonius: `update-initramfs -u` to just update the running one.  `update-initramfs -u -k all` for all installed02:13
filipiv had it 30 before maybe its because its hot in my room i use laptop02:13
bozonius60C sounds about right 110F I think02:14
filipok02:14
bozoniusis it an AMD or Intel?02:14
filipits so boiling hot in england lol the heat is tremendeous02:14
filipintel02:14
gnarfacethat might be on the high side for a new intel chip02:14
bozoniusyou might check Intel's support site and see what the specs are for your model of CPU02:14
gnarfacebut it's right in the normal range for older AMD02:14
filipfking intel02:14
bozoniusno, just how they are designed02:15
bozoniusover 600 successful pings in the reinstallation ascii partition02:15
bozoniusamazing...02:15
gnarfacefilip: oh, under load that's still fine.  i meant it sounded a bit high for idling02:15
bozoniusok, gnarface,  thnks, bbs02:15
filipits a bit more than week ago02:16
filipi even use cooling pad with one fan lol02:16
filiputbut its really hot in my room though so maybe thats the reason :<02:16
gnarfacewell do the internal fans come on normally?02:16
gnarfaceor have they stopped spinning up?02:16
filipno no they spin up alright ;p02:16
gnarfaceusing opengl programs can really heat up integrated video on those things02:17
gnarfacefirefox uses opengl by default now02:17
gnarfaceso do several compositing window managers02:17
filipwell the temperature is worrying i quite worry about it maybe i shouldnt use my laptop when its that hot im even scared to plug the battery cable in02:17
gnarfaceif it doesn't get much higher than 60 under load i wouldn't worry02:18
gnarfacebut there are of course things you can do to ruin a laptop02:18
gnarfacemake sure it's operating with adequate ventilation02:18
gnarfacedon't like, sit it on a blanket02:18
gnarfacedon't block the exhaust ports with your legs02:18
gnarfaceetc02:18
filipyeah i did it before put on the blanket on a bed hahah now its on cooling pad02:18
bozoniusmodern CPUs should shut themselves down automatically if they reach a critical temp02:19
gnarfaceif it's old you could have a dust clog problem on the intakes02:19
filipyeah...02:19
bozoniusso you don't have to worry they will burn out the cpu02:19
filipwhen i was playing diablo 3 on devuan i had temperatures at like 85 celsius degrees which was crazy02:19
gnarfaceif you see a pattern of gradually rising temperatures at idle over the course of weeks that's a good sign of clogged fans02:19
filipyeah i have pressure air in the garage i think i could use it...02:20
gnarfacebut those things have operating temperature ranges that are well documented even in consumer-grade manuals02:20
gnarfaceit's just that nobody pays attention to those pages of the manual02:20
gnarfacebut if it says that you can safely operate the computer between 60-80F, and you're in a room that's 105F, yea, you're gonna overheat it02:20
gnarfacei think they usually say like 60-86F or something like that02:21
filipshit, ok thanks :>02:21
gnarfaceyou can usually push it to +90F ambient room temperature before you start seeing stuff act up under load02:21
gnarfaceafter that... shut down the computers02:21
bozoniusinitramfs-tools configuration sets RESUME=UUID=blah-de-blah but no matching swap is available02:21
gnarfaceor buy a proper AC unit02:21
bozoniusignore?02:21
gnarfaceoh02:22
bozoniusor is this potentially serious?02:22
gnarfacebozonius: eh, only serious in the sense that that value being wrong will break hibernate for you02:22
bozoniusI don't care about hibernate.  But is there a way to fix that easily?02:22
bozoniusis that in grub.cfg?02:22
gnarfaceit's in something02:22
gnarfaceeither grub or initramfs i think02:23
bozoniusah! of course02:23
gnarfacetry this: `grep -rni 'resume' /etc/initramfs-tools/`02:23
filipac unit for laptop, if i had pc i made i wouldnt have issues with overheating i would use the best coolers ever ;D02:23
gnarfacei've had it happen before where something hardcoded it to some UUID that then got later changed02:23
filiphaving PC with some amazing cooling inside it is my dream02:24
gnarfacefilip: you do have acpid installed, right?02:24
filipnah i never installed anything like that02:24
gnarfacefilip: check maybe it's installed:  dpkg -l |grep acpi02:24
filipi just checked on synaptic and it isnt02:25
gnarfacefilip: if it's not, that may explain the high idle temperatures too; you need that for cpu to go into powersaving mode02:25
filipthis program, yeah i was looking for any program that i could use to manage cpu02:25
gnarfacefilip: in windows by default the computer will down clock the cores when you're not under load. this is the reason newer intel chips run so cool by default02:25
gnarfacefilip: in linux, depending on your settings, that may not happen02:25
filipso should i download it then02:26
filipis it like cpu power manager02:26
gnarfacefilip: install acpid first.  you may need a couple other things too.02:26
filipok im on it02:26
gnarfacebozonius: i remember it was set somewhere in /etc.  you don't have to set it to the right thing, you can probably just comment it out so it will default to your only swap partition02:26
filipok i have i02:27
gnarfacebozonius: the problem i ran into is somehow sometimes it gets hardcoded, then something will reformat the swap partition, which changes the UUID so initramfs-tools's config setting is no longer valid, and then is now pointing to a UUID it can't find02:27
gnarfacefilip: what does this command return?    `cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_governor`02:28
bozoniusdid the initramfs rebuild but still it is going bad02:28
bozoniusI'd love to know why ...02:29
gnarfacebozonius: but did you find the invalid UUID setting in /etc?02:29
bozoniusnot yet02:29
bozoniuslooking...02:29
filippowersave02:29
gnarfacebozonius: what did this command return? `grep -rni 'resume' /etc/initramfs-tools/`02:29
gnarfacefilip: that's the right setting.  wait 60 seconds then see if the cpu is cooling down02:30
bozoniusdoh02:30
bozoniusI'll bet it is set in the new installation... I re-used the same swap partition!  So it prob got a new uuid, and you know the rest02:30
gnarfacefilip: (it might help to close firefox and any other multimedia)02:31
bozoniusI'm  booting off of the new install's grub config, not the old one02:31
gnarfacebozonius: there are UUID-named symlinks pointing to their corresponding partitions in /dev/disk/by-uuid/02:31
gnarfacebozonius: you can look in there to get the correct value for your swap partition02:32
bozoniusblkid works also02:32
filipits even worse 70 celsius its about 150 fahrenheit02:32
bozoniusbut I really think they are in the new partition02:32
filipomg its the room its so hot02:32
gnarfacefilip: what's your ambient room temperature?  do you have an external thermometer?02:32
filipits fking boiling hot id say about 25-35 celsius about 80 fahrenheit im boiling here omg fucking heat wheres rain02:33
filipanyways ill see when its get colder02:33
filipengland is turning into desert02:33
gnarface35C is 95F actually02:34
filipyeah02:34
gnarfacethat's definitely above data center temperatures02:34
filipyeah iv got big window and sunlight coming straight to my room02:34
gnarfacei can't say for sure if it's the only problem, but it's a problem02:34
filipyeah it means id haave to use my laptop in another room or just not use it till it gets colder02:34
filipit should be just 30 celsius the pc not two times more its worrying but well ill come back in few days with it and see if something has changed02:36
filipthanks for now ;)02:36
gnarfacefilip: there could be other things wrong but it's hard to say.  keep an eye on it.02:37
filipyeah, thanx ;)02:37
gnarfacefilip: there should be a list of available speeds in /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_available_frequencies, you can make sure that 'powersave' mode is letting you fall to the lowest one at idle, then at least you'll know cpu reclocking is actually working02:38
bozoniuslooked at the load?02:38
gnarfacefilip: yea, you can just run top to see if anything is chewing up horsepower too02:38
bozoniusif a core is pegged at 100% that is a telltale sign02:39
bozonius(I've had that happen to me and the fans start whirring up loud)02:39
bozonius(sounds like a jet taking off)02:39
bozoniusguess what, I've had wireshark running throughout these tests!   I see clusters of DHCP requests, then nothing, then again, then nothing...02:41
bozoniusthat firmware package seems the culprit02:41
gnarfacecan you get a MAC address from those DHCP requests bozonius?02:42
bozoniusand, if so, it might be good to advise people seeking help here and at the forum that they may have some serious problems with networking (even though the current advisory seems to suggest only minor functionality is lost)02:42
bozoniusyes, same as before:  the test box02:42
bozonius(I almost have the last 6 nibbles memorized)02:43
filipokay i had some java game running and now highest cpu usage is xorg is only 3%02:44
bozoniusfilip:  "Had?"  we want to know while "have" game running!02:44
filipyeah with game is was about 70 degrees now its gone down to 47 its crazy lol its old school game and why does it takes so much temperature02:44
filipit suddenly colder in the room now crazy lol02:45
bozoniusmore cycles, more work02:45
bozoniusAND02:45
filipbut its old game not some diablo 3 lol02:45
bozoniusit is hitting your GPU more02:45
bozoniusif it doesn't have a GPU, then that work is spent on your main CPU cores02:45
filipyeah well i have fking optimus gp java was taking 97% of my cpu02:45
bozoniustht will do it, yes02:46
filipnow the temperature is down to 43 celsius from 70 crazy i read on internet it could be gpu drivers02:46
bozoniushow long were you playing for?02:46
bozoniusok, we might have something02:46
filip30 minutes i just came back from town turned the game on and the cpu temperature just goes up all the time02:46
bozoniusyou played for 30 minutes?02:46
filipi wonder whats xorg it likes my memory, yeah about 30 minutes yeah02:47
bozoniusyou will feel very differently come winter... I hear England gets cold too02:47
bozoniushow much memory total?02:47
filipnot really lol its getting worse desert lol02:47
filipi only have 4gb i paid 600 dollars for 4gb ddr4 ram and optimus gpu with intel hd 500 and nvidia geforce 940mx fking hell that sounds like a perfect linux laptop -.-02:48
bozoniuswhen you are playing, is your system swapping?\02:48
filipwhat do u mean by swapping?02:48
bozoniustotal 4GB?02:48
bozoniusor 8GB?02:48
filipye ;/ total 4gb ;/02:48
bozoniushaving a little trouble following02:48
bozoniusok02:48
filipill get more tho02:49
bozoniuswhen your game is playing how much total memory is being used?02:49
filipi can upgrade it to 8gb02:49
filiplemme have a look but temperature is gone down to 38 celsius now so it is java app02:49
bozoniusif you are running out of memory, then your system will swap to disk.  If it does, that will add work to the CPU (and slow you down a bit too)02:49
bozoniussure02:49
bozoniushtop will show you how much memory your total system is using and how much is being swapped02:50
filipits crazy this game run on ubuntu on pc for 20 dollars its now 50% cpu and 8% memory02:50
filipi played this game on ubuntu pc for 20 dollars before and didnt have any problems XD02:50
bozoniusI know the feeling, believe me...02:50
filipcpu temp was just 240% now and 100%02:51
bozoniusboy oh boy do I feel that02:51
bozoniuscpu temp is 240% ???02:51
bozoniusnot likely02:51
filipyeah top command showed it lol02:51
bozoniusmaybe you mean cpu usage?02:51
filipi think its this optimus bollocks this app runs on nvidia integrated now02:51
bozoniuscpu temp is not measured in percentage02:51
filipyeah cpu usage02:51
bozoniusok02:51
bozoniusit matters, it matters...02:52
bozoniusyou are running devuan ascii?02:52
filipmaybe i should download linux-firmware and bumblebee and run the app from optirun02:52
bozoniusnot famliar with bumblebee or optirun, sorry.  Ask gnarface about those02:52
filipim a bit familiar, optirun would run the app from geforce but geforce is performance card not saving power one02:53
bozoniusdefinitely install firmware if it is suggested02:53
filipso it doesnt make any sense02:53
bozoniusmight still be worth a try, if it might take load off the cpu02:53
filipwell at first i was blaming OS i had similar issue on fedora now on devuan so i thought its the OS problem not me but now i can see its the java app my temp started to go higher again02:53
bozoniusOTOH, graphics cards get hot also02:53
filipyeah the core temp is now 50 degrees02:54
bozonius50C is not too bad I think02:54
bozoniuswhat is the CPU model?02:54
filipi5-7200 7th the thing is the temperature is going higher and higher now it will be 70 again from 3002:55
filipso its the java app its weird anyways ill sort it out maybe xD02:55
bozoniusapparently, your processor maxes out around 100C02:58
bozoniusyou will pay less for heating this winter02:59
gnarfacefilip: there's a lot of things that could be wrong in the java program to cause it.  if you can get it running on the geforce card that should lower the CPU temperature if it's OpenGL load that's causing the heat-up.  that might just move the heat to elsewhere in the system though too.02:59
filipits weird cuz this game runs on intel pentium 202:59
gnarfacefilip: it's also possible that if you enable vsync in the game, it'll massively lower the CPU load02:59
bozoniusmaybe a desktop would work better...02:59
bozoniuseven an old one03:00
gnarfacesometimes with old games like that the problem is that they run TOO fast03:00
gnarfaceno frame limiters in place, so without vsync it's just like an open throttle on your CPU03:00
bozoniusah, true03:00
bozoniuswhat about running it in something like qemu or virtualbox?03:00
bozoniusI think there may be options to control stuff like vsync and the like03:00
gnarfacei have that problem with some newer games in wine, too.  Starcraft2 and World of Warcraft's splash screens cause runaway GPU temperature increases03:01
bozoniusooooh03:01
bozoniusnot good03:01
bozoniusI don't play games on the pc03:01
bozoniusthough maybe I should03:01
gnarfacebozonius: it shouldn't be necessary for him to run it in qemu just to get vsync working.  there should be an environment variable he can set.03:01
filipgoddamn windows games what they had to be so good and addictive fuck03:01
filipthis is old school runescape and it doesnt even has vsync its game based on engine from 200703:02
filipi forgot i can run it from mozilla i run it now and my temperatures seem to be stable so that was the app03:02
filipits some app that some guy did for linux so it can run runescape03:02
filipcrazy!! :D03:02
gnarfacefilip: you should be able to force it with your video drivers or maybe even your window manager or compositor settings.  (there's also one in nvidia-settings but that'll only work for the nvidia gpu)03:02
filipyeah the temperatures are just fine now when i run it from browser03:02
filipthanks!!03:02
gnarfaceoh, yea firefox is probably vsyncing in opengl mode by default03:03
bozoniusuh... what's this "driconf?"03:03
bozoniushttps://subsetgames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=200903:03
bozonius(my Uncle Google sent me this)03:03
bozoniusI have no idea if that is relevant or useful03:03
filipso u saying that if app cant vsync in opengl mode then it just causes trouble?03:04
bozoniusread the link, filip.  See if that sounds like it might help03:04
gnarfacefilip: ironically, only if it's really lightweight and runs real fast.  like an old game.03:05
filipok cheers yeah the temperature is on 40 celsius now and its stable on the browser the app was the issue03:05
filipyeah it is really lightweigh actually and it is old game ;P03:05
gnarfacefilip: if there's no vsync and no frame limiter and the game can render at like 600FPS you can see heating rise in proportion to that03:05
bozoniusgnarface filip:  did you look at driconf?03:06
filipyeah okay i entered your link bozonius thanks gonna have a look03:06
bozoniusok03:06
bozoniusgood03:06
gnarfacebozonius: i don't know anything about it.  since he has optimus hardware i expect it will work on his integrated GPU but not on the Nvidia one03:06
filipits fine i dont need nvidia one for thsi game anyway i dont even need this nvidia card id change it for more ram memory if i could03:07
gnarfaceboth drivers should obey their environment variables for this though, regardless of the program being run03:08
bozoniusclose to 2000 pings on my testbox03:08
bozoniusno problems03:08
gnarfacefor the onboard intel video the environment variable is vblank_mode=0 and for the nvidia proprietary it is __GL_SYNC_TO_VBLANK=003:08
gnarfaceactually the environment variable is "vblank_mode=0" for all the drivers using mesa03:09
gnarfacenvidia nonsensically does their own thing as usual03:09
filipBRB03:09
* bozonius watches the rest of this convo flying way over his head03:09
bozoniusso... something went waaaaay wrong during the first install of ascii on my testbox03:10
bozoniushuh03:10
bozoniusbut what, I still don't know03:10
filipokay i installed this direct rendering preferences xD03:10
bozoniusgnarface:  I plan on eventually having a number of bootable partitions on the test box, and they will chage from time to time03:12
bozoniusI'm wondering if there might be something else besides grub that would work as well, and automatically find and configure whatever bootable partitions it can find?03:12
bozoniuslike boot manager, or the like03:13
VallHello everyone. I'm trying to use `apt-add-repository` (added via apt-get from pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged ascii/main) and it aborts with a Python traceback, of which the relevant part seems to be:03:16
Vallaptsources.distro.NoDistroTemplateException: Error: could not find a distribution template for Devuan/ascii03:16
gnarfacebozonius: you can try lilo.  i still like it, but it's considerably less automatic than grub.03:17
Vallie, seems the program doesn't grok Devuan?!03:17
bozoniusgnarface:  I like you.  I always liked lilo.  Even grub 1.  Not so crazy about grub 2.03:17
bozoniusany thoughts on elilo?03:17
gnarfacei don't think i ever tried it03:18
gnarfaceVall: it wouldn't be the first.  i think the debian version of debootstrap still doesn't support Devuan either03:18
gnarfaceVall: are you trying to upgrade to Devuan or are you just trying to mix some packages from the repos into Debian?03:19
Vallgnarface: I installed Devuan from the Live DVD, using the Install script on the Desktop03:20
gnarfaceoh hmmm03:21
gnarfaceVall: so no packages from outside of Devuan?03:21
VallWhat I'm trying to do is to add the ZFS repo, which I did on a Mint machine with `sudo apt-add-repository ppa:zfs-native/stable`03:22
VallA little searching brought that up:  https://www.mail-archive.com/dng@lists.dyne.org/msg14671.html03:23
VallSeems it's an old issue (at least 1.25 years old) which haven't been addressed yet :-(03:23
gnarfacethere's a bug report about this happening once in 2009 in debian lenny too03:24
gnarfacehttps://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=51303903:24
gnarfaceVall, maybe you need to correct your sources.list first03:25
gnarfaceit could be wrong03:25
gnarfaceyou didn't swap python versions by any chance, did you?03:25
gnarfacethis seems like the type of problem lots of things might cause03:25
VallLOL03:26
Vallold bugs never die, it seems ;-)03:26
VallWell, going to add the repo to sources.d manually then.03:26
gnarfacethere's still a chance this could be self-inflicted03:27
gnarfacebut i guess what matters is that it works03:27
gnarfacei wonder if anyone else here has seen the same probem03:27
gnarfacelike, recently03:27
gnarfacethe fact you installed from the live image may be related03:28
Vallgnarface: never mind, found a much easier way to do what I wanted (seems zfs is on the official Devuan repo)03:31
Vallinstalling it from there right now03:31
gnarfaceah good.  always better to use the native packages when available03:31
VallAnyone knows how to configure xfce so  <control><alt><arrow> doesn't go through the beginning/end of each "row"?03:33
gnarfaceyou mean in the window manager?  not a terminal cursor?03:34
gnarfacemaybe try settings->window manager->keyboard?03:35
gnarfacei dont' use xfce03:35
gnarfaceit should be pretty easy though to find the settings03:35
Jjp137Vall, this works for me: Settings -> Window Manager Tweaks -> Workspaces tab -> "Wrap workspaces depending on the actual desktop layout"03:37
Vallgnarface: the workspace wrap setting worked, thanks!04:40
Vallanother question: the ZFS version on contrib is too old, I need the one on backports.04:42
VallHow do I set apt-get install to get a specific version? adding `=VERSION` after the `apt-get install PACKAGE` returned `E: Unable to locate package04:44
VallOK, `-t ascii-backports` did it04:50
gnarfaceVall: sorry, i had wandered off, and that was Jjp137's suggestion anyway, but i'm glad you got it working.  thanks for letting us know.05:35
ChankuI'm officially getting around to updating my current install to ASCII Stable from what basically remained constant during the ASCII Alpha/Beta periods05:50
golinuxChanku: Remember to point you sources to deb.devuan.org06:22
ChankutI have06:23
golinuxLet us know how it goes06:23
golinuxThat user finally got registered with a static connection btw06:24
Sleakergolinux you ever dealt with self-building preseeded ISOs/apt repos?06:24
Sleakertrying to get a question answered but I think the knowledge base is narrow on the subject.06:24
ChankuI also have finally upgraded chromium.06:25
golinuxSleaker:  No I haven't.  I'm a desktop user.06:42
Sleakerah kk07:06
Sleaker:(07:06
artishkai'm trying to install devuan in a vm09:15
artishkabut the download speed is painfully slow09:15
artishkai've tried changing mirrors between the country specific ones and the pkgmaster one09:16
artishkait's not utilizing my full network speed09:16
artishkaright now it's been on the "Select and install software" phase for ages09:17
artishkamy network monitor shows its only going 20-40 KB/s09:17
artishkawhereas my connection maxes out at 1 MB/s09:18
syco_wow :')09:18
artishkaI've also tried entering mirrors manually from http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/mirror_list.txt09:18
artishkabut that's a no go09:18
artishkacan anyone help me out on this one?09:20
artishkaa strange thing is on the initial "Retrieving 13 files" stage, it did use my maximum connection speed for a while09:20
JasjarHello all. I'm torn between this and Gentoo... What are the differences besides package managers?09:20
artishkaJasjar: binary- vs. source-based09:21
artishkaalso, you can install GNOME without systemd on Gentoo, if that's your thing09:22
syco_choice (amount of packaged stuff) and maturity09:22
JasjarEhh, I prefer KDS of xfce409:22
Jasjar*KDE or09:23
artishkaJasjar: it mostly boils down to if you can handle the compile times09:24
syco_not necessarily .. you can also install binaries with gentoo if you don't want to compile everything09:25
Jasjar.deb's?09:25
artishkasyco_: that, too09:25
JasjarI guess I'll put devuan on my laptop and Gentoo on my PC since that actually has some CPU power...09:26
artishkaJasjar: you can also compile packages on your PC and let your laptop use those09:27
JasjarYes, but that's more annoying than just waiting for the package to compile...09:28
syco_well, i wouldn't install gentoo from stage1 on a laptop :p09:29
Jasjarsyco_: I already did that on some old HP laptop already lol09:31
golinuxartishka: Try deb.devuan.org which consists of maybe a dozen load balanced repo servers.09:45
KatolaZartishka: all the servers behind deb.devuan.org provide at least 250Mb/s09:53
KatolaZmost of them are well over 1Gb/s09:53
artishkagolinux: KatolaZ: I've tried those. It starts out max speed, then throttles down to 20-40 KB/s.10:57
KatolaZartishka: are you shure it's not your ISP?11:20
syco_probably11:21
KatolaZ(or your disk?)11:21
KatolaZ(OK, that was silly :D)11:21
FlibberTGibbetsilly question of the week. has anyone here tried to convert a Stretch install on WSL to Devuan? asking for a friend ;)12:05
KatolaZWSL?12:07
* FlibberTGibbet blushes12:08
FlibberTGibbetWindows Subsystem for Linux12:08
* FlibberTGibbet looks into the middle distance and whistles innocently12:08
KatolaZO_o12:09
KatolaZwhat is that?12:09
FlibberTGibbetit's a mapping for syscalls etc so you can run a distro directly inside Win12:09
KatolaZWitchcraft?12:09
KatolaZoh12:09
FlibberTGibbetdark and terrible magic, certianly12:09
FlibberTGibbets/certianly/certainly12:10
KatolaZbut the "aasking for a friend" is not at all convincing...12:10
KatolaZ:D12:10
FlibberTGibbetdamn. saw right through me :)12:10
KatolaZ"My cousin said"12:10
KatolaZ"The neighbour wants to know"12:10
FlibberTGibbetor some guy at the pub...12:10
KatolaZ"I have a friend who asked..."12:10
KatolaZyeah12:11
KatolaZwe have been around enough :D12:11
FlibberTGibbetanyway, they have Stretch on the Win10 store. was wondering if there's a straightforward way of turning a Stretch install into Ascii12:11
ivanshmakov“Inquiring minds want to know.”12:13
ivanshmakov“(While the minds with self-preservation instincts run away screaming.)”12:15
FlibberTGibbetlol ivanshmakov12:15
FlibberTGibbeti know. just that gitbash for Windows only provides a subset of the usual commands of a Linux distro, and I'd rather have an actual Devuan-backed shell on the box than the ported GNU userland, or fire up a full VM every time.12:16
ivanshmakovFlibberTGibbet: I can’t seem to recall the author of the quote, sadly.12:17
FlibberTGibbetah, dev1fanboy has a decent looking tutorial on the devuan gitlab.12:19
FlibberTGibbetwhat could possibly go wrong(TM)?12:19
buZzwho put stretch on the win10 store?12:19
FlibberTGibbetmicrosoft by the looks of it12:20
FlibberTGibbetalong with suse, ubuntu and kali12:20
buZzah, debian themselves it says12:21
FlibberTGibbetah, ok12:21
buZzmaybe you could make it your mission to make a devuan for that windows linux emulator12:21
FlibberTGibbetbut still, if that works then I reckon it's worth a try to convert to Ascii. just for lolz12:21
buZzfyi, it performs shitpoor12:21
FlibberTGibbetah, that's a bugger12:21
KatolaZso, Linux on top of Windows...12:22
FlibberTGibbethorrible but true.12:22
KatolaZwith syscalls translated on the fly12:22
FlibberTGibbetyup.12:22
FlibberTGibbetlovely, eh? :/12:22
KatolaZwindows is not able to manages its own syscalls...12:22
KatolaZFlibberTGibbet: cygwin12:23
buZzi dont get why you'd not run linux native12:23
buZzthe 'mah games' argument is kinda mute now that steam has over 5000 native linux games12:23
KatolaZwell, sometimes at work you have to get along with windows12:24
buZzwindows runs well in a VM on linux12:24
KatolaZbuZz: if you can do that12:24
KatolaZi.e., if you administer the machine you are supposed yto use...12:24
buZzyou mean, if you have the aptitude?12:24
KatolaZnope12:24
buZzoh like that12:24
artishkaKatolaZ: strange, it's working fine now...12:24
KatolaZif you have the power :)12:24
FlibberTGibbetbuZz: I'd do that in a heartbeat if I thought the Adobe crap, Rhino, my renderer etc wouldn't be slowed right down12:24
artishkawhatever could it have been?12:24
DrugoHello. Is there a LAMP ready Vagrantfile for devuan?12:24
FlibberTGibbetanyway, more of a curiosity. i'll let you know if it works.12:25
buZzFlibberTGibbet: wine3.x is quite amazing12:25
KatolaZartishka: probably your ISP, since you tried from different mirrors12:25
ChankuDual boot is also an option12:25
FlibberTGibbetbuZz: it's not up to the job with things like Indesign CC or Maxwell Render though.12:25
KatolaZsingle boot is the sensible option12:25
buZzFlibberTGibbet: you tried wine 3.x ? thats only out since a couple months12:25
ChankuI mean if you have to use Windows for something, dual booting is a decent option. I've done it before12:26
buZzsupports directx 11 even12:26
FlibberTGibbetbuZz: I'm going for option 2: make the next fancy laptop linux-only, gradually retire the Windows side of my work :)12:26
FlibberTGibbetand keep things jogging along until then12:26
buZz:) thats me ~20 years ago12:26
buZzwinME left me unable to ever consider microsoft' solutions workable12:27
FlibberTGibbetmy mistake for staying around publishing too long. the rest of what i do doesn't need proprietary sw at all12:27
ChankuI used to dual boot with Windows 7 (actually triple boot: Win 7, Manjaro Open-RC, and Devuan/Debian) for a handful of games that I really like that don't run outside of Windows and for when I need to ensure windows compatability.12:27
KatolaZChanku: many times you don't have the option to dual-boot12:27
KatolaZ:)12:27
KatolaZin some places you have to use a windows desktop12:27
ChankuI know, I am currently in one of those times :P12:27
KatolaZ:D12:27
buZzFlibberTGibbet: true artists dont need branded paintbrushes to make art ;)12:27
KatolaZI had once12:28
Chanku(Albeit my limitation is staying with Devuan :D)12:28
KatolaZI just installed cygwin with windowmaker12:28
KatolaZ:)12:28
FlibberTGibbetbuZz: no, but commercially viable designers need to use the same software as their peers. sad but true.12:28
ChankuAnd I mean a VM for a system works alright depending on what yo uneed.12:28
artishkaKatolaZ: it worked fine if i tried to download files directly using wget from within the vm, tho12:28
buZzFlibberTGibbet: well yeah, sectors that depend on non-openfileformats should just die :)12:28
FlibberTGibbetfair point though, might be worth putting a Win10 VM on the next machine and hosting it on a proper OS12:28
buZzaround the time i made my switch , windows in a VM on linux performed way better than windows on the same machine natively :P12:29
FlibberTGibbetreally buZz? that's nearly all of solid modelling, most of rendering, nearly all publishing and graphic design work. hope you can feed them after you've banned their jobs...12:29
buZzFlibberTGibbet: brlcad / openscad are both open formats used in a -lot- of industrial designs12:30
Chankuwhat formats does graphic design work need that's non-open?12:30
buZz-and- foss software12:30
buZzChanku: PSD :P12:30
buZzAI , PDF12:30
buZzthat kinda pooha12:30
FlibberTGibbetbuZz: now design me an oil rig in either of those and be sure it works in advance12:30
FlibberTGibbeti'd love to see all those things replaced by non-proprietary software but it's a long way off being the case12:30
buZzFlibberTGibbet: you dont know what brlcad is, do you? :P12:30
buZzFlibberTGibbet: its used for ~99% of US military cad needs12:31
buZzincl simulations12:31
FlibberTGibbetgood for them.12:31
ChankuAI?12:31
buZzChanku: adobe's inkscape clone has that as fileformat12:31
FlibberTGibbetinkscape would be great if it wasn't using svg (piss-poor cmyk support for print) under the hood12:32
ChankuKrita can export PSD files12:32
buZzinkscape has native cmyk aswell12:32
FlibberTGibbetnow assemble that lot into a solid workflow when a client's screaming at you. not saying it wouldn't be ideal, but unless you've done exactly what I do for a living this is all a lot like wishful thinking12:32
buZzlol clients12:33
FlibberTGibbetyes, those people who pay for me to eat and have somewhere to live. lol indeed.12:33
buZzthey're funny12:33
ChankuI mean Krita is rather similar to Photoshop, especially from a UI perspective.12:33
buZzkrita is more like mspaint, from what i can see12:34
FlibberTGibbetit's good. but it's a painting app. not the same in many use cases to the publishing workflow12:34
FlibberTGibbetmostly i just wish the proprietary bods would at least ship their stuff for a sensible os12:34
buZzadobe promissed that a bunch of times, same @ autodesk12:35
ChankubuZz it's nowhere close to mspaint12:35
buZzthey'll never do12:35
FlibberTGibbetadobe are working on a chromeos version but it's taking longer than, well, something very slow indeed12:35
buZzwebbrowser clients are just not productive12:35
FlibberTGibbetmost of the adobe stuff now looks a lot like a browser app in waiting -- lightweight controls etc12:36
buZzyeah gross, and then the browser apps that tend to morph towards a phone display12:36
FlibberTGibbetand it relies on npm (ugh) under the hood so i'm betting that's exactly what their stuff will  be in 10  years time12:36
FlibberTGibbetugh12:36
FlibberTGibbeti'm just amazed at the stuff I can crank out using RMarkdown and a charting library these days.12:37
FlibberTGibbetplus XeTex with opentype fonts.12:37
FlibberTGibbetah, it's booting :D12:38
FlibberTGibbetheh, fell over at apt-get update12:39
buZzon just -update- ? gee12:40
buZzoh, you're devuan-ing that windows10 debian?12:40
FlibberTGibbettrying12:40
FlibberTGibbetactually it won't ping deb.debian.org so i'll have to try it without an update before swapping to ascii12:41
KatolaZFlibberTGibbet: uh?12:43
FlibberTGibbetah, it won't get through to much at all. apparently all sorts of problems with name resolution12:44
FlibberTGibbetthe hell with that. life's too short to waste time on ms kludges. :)13:00
filiphi i dont know why iv had problems with too high core 0 core 1 temperature when i play game from 2007 its rising and rising its 60 celsius degrees now ;/13:29
filipi think there should be different default browser than firefox14:00
gnarfacethere should be, but it's unfortunately the only one so far that passes muster for packaging in debian and is also fully open-source and can render commercial web pages14:02
gnarfacechrome isn't open source14:02
gnarfacepalemoon apparently can't be packaged (emotional issues?)14:02
gnarfaceand everything else is either no longer supported, closed source, no longer supported AND closed source, or can't reliably render anything more complex than Gimp documentation14:03
debdogwould adding the official palemoon repo be an option?14:03
gnarfacei don't know and can't say but i assume no14:04
syco_what about brave ?14:04
gnarfacegetting *debian* to add palemoon *would* be an option in theory but i assume that the reason it hasn't been done already is something nobody is willing to change14:04
gnarface(whatever that is)14:05
gnarfacehmmm, i don't know anything about brave14:05
debdogwhat if the repo is in sources list but disabled by default?14:05
gnarfacei'm surprised to hear it was actually finished... i guess it's been out all year14:05
gnarfacedebdog: mixing repos isn't generally an advised practice outside of ubuntu and winehq14:06
gnarfacei can't really see them doing that14:07
gnarfacebut again, i don't know14:07
debdogwell, since palemoon is not in the official repo the chance of havin gconflicts is pretty low14:07
gnarfacebut the question remains why it's not14:08
debdogTBH, the browsers being very outdated on debian stable is a real bugger. adding additional repos for them might be a tolerable way to go.14:09
gnarfacepeople can do that on their own though14:11
KatolaZpalemoon has several restrictions concerning repackaging and redistribution14:12
KatolaZdebdog: which browser is "very outdated"?14:12
debdogwhich brings me back to "what if the repo is in sources list but disabled by default?" gnarface14:12
KatolaZdebdog: why should it be in the sources.list then?14:13
gnarfacedebdog: then it falsely gives the impression of endorsement to packages that the project nor the parent project has any control over the compatibility for, then you're back in the same mess as all the ubuntu PPAs14:13
KatolaZif people know about it, they can include it in sources.list...14:13
gnarfacedebdog: the problem with firefox in ascii being really old is a situation Google manufactured themselves btw14:14
KatolaZtbh, palemoon has a quite strange redistribution policy14:14
gnarfaceer, mozilla i guess.  google isn't paying them anymore are they?14:14
debdogKatolaZ: actually, no clue. was talking of times past on debian. I have my browsers outside of the debian/devuan repo for years now14:14
KatolaZdebdog: o_O14:15
KatolaZdebdog: firefox 52.6 was released on June 201814:16
debdog<KatolaZ> debdog: why should it be in the sources.list then?  --  well, just a thought, to make it easier to add a browser repo. and i am not talking about palemoon per se, just an example for any browser14:16
KatolaZand it's already in the repos...14:16
KatolaZdebdog: if you add stuff, people expect it to be working out of the box14:16
KatolaZwhich you can't guarantee14:16
debdogalso, hehe, who is talking about firefox at all? the talk started with "<filip> i think there should be different default browser than firefox"14:17
KatolaZ(sorry, 52.6 was release in january :D)14:18
KatolaZdebdog: I also think that the default X should come with xmonad...14:18
KatolaZthis does not make it a choice a distro should go for :D14:18
debdogconsidering devuan's target audience, a different than firefox browser might be a valid option, though14:19
gnarfacei wish there WAS a better option14:20
debdogalso, if people go for "what most of the people use", they prolly go for debian anyway ;)14:20
ivanshmakovAIUI, Pale Moon is rather outdated itself; if anything, they don’t have as much manpower as Firefox has.14:30
ivanshmakovAlso, http://howtogeek.com/335712/ has some valid points. Unfortunately, to me personally, the choice between, say, Basilisk and Firefox is increasingly one between an insecure program that does work /and/ a secure one that doesn’t.14:33
ivanshmakovIt gets to the point that I’m starting contemplating forking Firefox myself. If I’m to hazard a guess, Mozilla thinks that ‘modernizing’ UI every other major version constitutes continuous improvement. Arguably, it’s actually a sign of perpetual horrendousness.14:35
debdogagreed. the task at hand should be finding a replacement, or creating one14:38
MinceRwhere will you get the manpower palemoon failed to get, though?14:38
gnarfacewell you could start chucking features overboard14:38
gnarfacei mean, did it really need a wallet?14:39
MinceRthe "modern" web itself is irredeemably bloated14:39
MinceRthey, too, chucked features overboard14:39
MinceRWebRTC, for example14:39
ivanshmakovThere’re some things that I’d get rid of, indeed. “Safebrowsing,” for instance, seem like an immediate threat to privacy; as is anything that requires a Mozilla account (like loop or sync.)14:42
ivanshmakovWell, more like s/immediate/potential/, yet still.14:43
ivanshmakovAlso, use cURL for HTTP – do not reinvent the wheel; save on maintenance costs.14:43
xrogaananybody here could tell me if this command also returns a SSL3 error? 'openssl s_client -connect pops.tuxfamily.org:110'18:06
xrogaanI get this: 140194136040704:error:1408F10B:SSL routines:ssl3_get_record:wrong version number:../ssl/record/ssl3_record.c:252:18:06
AcaciaI also agree Devuan should have a chromium/firefox alternative. There's Midori in the repositories but that's not always usable. I think IceCat would be a good start, but maybe also palemoon. With IceCat there's a more freedom respecting browser, and then things become a question of the quality of the browser you pick, which we don't really have a choice beyond "bad" currently. The commandline browsers are18:06
Acaciapretty good but they're not always usable too.18:06
KatolaZAcacia: palemoon cannot be redistributed in Devuan18:07
KatolaZdue to palemoon's license18:07
KatolaZpalemoon is somehow in a grey area18:07
KatolaZyou can't redistribuite a rebuilt version18:08
KatolaZAcacia: have you tried surf2?18:08
AcaciaKatolaZ: Haven't heard of it until now18:08
KatolaZ:)18:09
xrogaantrying to check if openssl is buggy on the client side or if the server is bad.18:20
xrogaanmidori is crashy btw18:20
KatolaZwell xrogaan even firefox is "crashy"18:21
KatolaZas soon as you put the computer on sleep, it says "gash! YOUR tab has crached!"18:21
KatolaZFFS, that's not MY tab.18:21
KatolaZit's YOUR fucking tab, dear firefox...18:22
bozoniusKatolaZ:  I like it.  Tell mozilla where to take it.  Straighten them out!18:32
KingNeutronHowdy - anyone home?19:11
KingNeutronI'd like to donate a PC to Devuan19:12
]BFG[i have like to donate some gbit download servers to host devuan isos23:22
xrogaanKatolaZ: what I meant was that if you visit a website with midori, chances are it'll crash.23:29
xrogaanjust because of the javascript or html or whatever. It's not stable.23:29
xrogaanstack exchange doesn't display correctly either.23:29

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