| fsmithred | We could start a 12-step program | 00:05 |
|---|---|---|
| golinux | bozonius: How are you getting FF to play audio without it? Did you do the apulse thing? | 00:06 |
| bozonius | step 1: Admit to yourself that systemd, pulseaudio, and even avahi are not really helping you. | 00:06 |
| bozonius | golinux: Yes, in some cases, apulse is needed. | 00:07 |
| fsmithred | not needed with ff-esr in ascii | 00:07 |
| bozonius | fsmithred: Some versions of ff are OK without apulse or pulse | 00:07 |
| bozonius | (agreeing) | 00:08 |
| golinux | True. I thought you were playing with Beowulf. | 00:08 |
| bozonius | I am... or was, anyway. I haven't played with sound there yet. | 00:08 |
| golinux | And had encountered | 00:08 |
| bozonius | I was only commenting on james1138 comment | 00:08 |
| golinux | the end of FF as we've known it | 00:09 |
| bozonius | omg... what new torture are we in for with ff | 00:09 |
| bozonius | ? | 00:09 |
| golinux | pulseaudio will be required. | 00:10 |
| bozonius | not if you use apulse | 00:10 |
| golinux | Yes. I was wondering if you'd done that. | 00:10 |
| bozonius | no, sorry. | 00:10 |
| bozonius | I could try it... | 00:10 |
| fsmithred | please do. I'm not sure if it works. | 00:10 |
| bozonius | np | 00:11 |
| fsmithred | what version of ff are you using? | 00:11 |
| bozonius | where? | 00:11 |
| bozonius | beowulf? | 00:11 |
| fsmithred | in beowulf | 00:11 |
| bozonius | uh... not sure. Let me look | 00:11 |
| golinux | I keep an eye out for an apulse howto. | 00:11 |
| bozonius | prob whatever comes with it, and any updates | 00:11 |
| fsmithred | 52.9 | 00:12 |
| fsmithred | pretty sure 57 is the first one that requires pulse | 00:12 |
| fsmithred | there's ff-61 (not esr) in sid/ceres | 00:12 |
| bozonius | ok running into a glitch | 00:18 |
| EHeM | Any help for an issue of `fsck.ext4` apparently not making it onto an initial ramdisk? (fsck.ext3 gets on, fsck.ext4 is being troublesome) | 00:18 |
| bozonius | I only have headphones for my testbox | 00:19 |
| bozonius | (usb headphones) host ascii system lsusb shows the device, but it seems the guest (beowulf) does not see it) | 00:19 |
| fsmithred | aplay -l | 00:20 |
| fsmithred | see which card is first | 00:20 |
| fsmithred | EHeM, maybe running 'update-initramfs -u' will fix it | 00:20 |
| bozonius | huh... on the host, I am seeing card 0 analog, card 0 digital, and card 1 headset | 00:21 |
| EHeM | fsmithred: That was the obvious guess, didn't help. | 00:22 |
| fsmithred | you'll need to change the order of the cards | 00:22 |
| bozonius | right | 00:22 |
| EHeM | fsmithred: Actually recreated them from scratch and `fsck.ext3` shows up, but `fsck.ext4` doesn't. | 00:23 |
| fsmithred | EHeM, that's weird | 00:23 |
| EHeM | I know. | 00:24 |
| EHeM | Hmm, now it looks like one of my VMs it did manage to get in, but not in some other spots. | 00:26 |
| bozonius | ok, so I re-ordered the cards on the host (ascii) and I can record and playback on the host. But the beowulf guest is not seeing any usb devices | 00:35 |
| bozonius | I tried changing the vbox config for the vm from usb 3 to usb 2 support, but no change | 00:36 |
| bozonius | I suppose I could install beowulf to the host, but that will take some time... | 00:36 |
| fsmithred | you shouldn't need to do that | 00:36 |
| bozonius | or try my analog headset... | 00:36 |
| fsmithred | does your guest normally see the usb audio, or does it just pretend it has something else? | 00:37 |
| bozonius | "normally?" -- this is the first time I am trying the headset on the test box. | 00:38 |
| fsmithred | I think you should be able to leave the default vbox audio setting | 00:40 |
| fsmithred | AC97 | 00:40 |
| fsmithred | as long as sound works on the host, I'd expect it to work in vbox | 00:41 |
| fsmithred | it'll just use ALSA | 00:41 |
| bozonius | the problem is that the guest doesn't see the usb device | 00:41 |
| bozonius | (right) | 00:41 |
| fsmithred | why does it need to see that? | 00:41 |
| bozonius | now, I DO have pulse running on host | 00:41 |
| fsmithred | oh, then maybe set it to pulse instead of alsa | 00:42 |
| bozonius | I could disable that and just use alsa there, but the headset works on the ascii host | 00:42 |
| bozonius | it needs to see the device so it can be used in the guest | 00:42 |
| bozonius | the guest must capture the device first | 00:42 |
| bozonius | before any application can "see" it | 00:42 |
| fsmithred | mine does not see my correct device | 00:43 |
| bozonius | but the trouble is that vbox itself, for the guest process that is, does not see it | 00:43 |
| fsmithred | host has intel hd audio | 00:43 |
| fsmithred | vbox is using ac97. | 00:43 |
| bozonius | are you using analog or digital headphones | 00:43 |
| fsmithred | none | 00:43 |
| bozonius | oh | 00:44 |
| fsmithred | just looking at the audio settings on the laptop | 00:44 |
| bozonius | well, here's anothr thought | 00:44 |
| bozonius | maybe I can just plug in my speakers to the test box | 00:44 |
| fsmithred | lol | 00:44 |
| fsmithred | that should work | 00:44 |
| bozonius | should, yes | 00:44 |
| * bozonius reaches... | 00:45 | |
| * bozonius tries to... must... grab... | 00:47 | |
| * bozonius agggggh! | 00:47 | |
| * bozonius is eaten by a tangle of wires in the corner behind the computers... | 00:47 | |
| bozonius | (very sad) | 00:47 |
| bozonius | boys, we have sound on beowulf! | 00:53 |
| bozonius | now, to see if ff works without pulse | 00:53 |
| bozonius | ping beowulf vm has ff 52.9.0 (ff-esr) | 00:58 |
| EHeM | bozonius: You created the Cordthulu? | 00:58 |
| bozonius | I have to admit I might have created it... you know. It starts with one wire, then you drop another through, figuring that won't be a problem. THen another, then another | 01:04 |
| bozonius | having some problems with network config | 01:15 |
| bozonius | I tried disabling connman | 01:17 |
| bozonius | but even after stopping and starting network, it is not seeing the host | 01:17 |
| bozonius | weird. | 01:17 |
| bozonius | I usually don't have this many issues with simple ipv4 config | 01:18 |
| bozonius | with vbox | 01:18 |
| bozonius | ip a shows me the correct config, though I note ip route shows no default route | 01:18 |
| bozonius | this connman doesn't seem to be in sync with what network has | 01:19 |
| bozonius | it was configured for the 192.168.56.0 net, and I changed it (I thought) to .55 net, but then I see /etc/network/interfaces had not been updated -- still showed dhcp not static as I specified to connman | 01:20 |
| bozonius | the "Network" UI on ascii works fine... | 01:20 |
| bozonius | maybe one of you can kind of step me though the config for this? | 01:21 |
| fsmithred | I normally set it to Bridged and eth0 and it just works | 01:23 |
| bozonius | well, I tried that also, I can retry that... | 01:24 |
| bozonius | I had to kill dhclient | 01:24 |
| fsmithred | I don't set a static ip | 01:24 |
| fsmithred | it just gets an address from the router | 01:24 |
| bozonius | I can ping the host, but no response comes back (I know it is going out to the host, because wireshark on the host shows the packets) | 01:50 |
| bozonius | kkkkkkk | 01:51 |
| bozonius | (sorry) | 01:51 |
| bozonius | when I try to ping with -v, it tells me permission denied, attmpting raw socket... | 01:52 |
| bozonius | and I am root | 01:52 |
| bozonius | I tried allowing promiscuous mode on the adapter also | 01:52 |
| bozonius | 120 | 01:53 |
| bozonius | sorry I am on 2 keyboards | 01:53 |
| bozonius | (ignore "120" and "kkkk") | 01:53 |
| fsmithred | you're in the netdev group? | 01:53 |
| bozonius | root ? | 01:53 |
| fsmithred | oh, user | 01:54 |
| bozonius | and, yes, my user "tester" is also in netdev. But it might be irrelevant | 01:54 |
| bozonius | brb - water | 01:55 |
| bozonius | any ideas? | 02:07 |
| fsmithred | google the error message | 02:07 |
| bozonius | why is it that the ascii host can see the packages coming over, but there is no response at the guest? | 02:07 |
| fsmithred | I don't know. | 02:08 |
| * bozonius is a complete ... !!! | 02:10 | |
| bozonius | I made a doodoo | 02:10 |
| bozonius | give me a few minutes to fix this... | 02:10 |
| bozonius | I know exactly what stupid-ass thing I did THIS time | 02:10 |
| bozonius | ok the guest can now talk to host, but I've got a dns resolution problem... | 02:24 |
| bozonius | packet forwarding | 02:34 |
| bozonius | I'll need to enable packet forwarding on the ascii host | 02:35 |
| bozonius | does that require the whole firewall bit, or can I set something in sysctl? | 02:35 |
| gnarface | bozonius: just enabling forwarding can be done via sysctl. the default /etc/sysctl.conf probably has the lines already, just commented-out. | 02:41 |
| gnarface | bozonius: (there are two lines, one for ipv4, and one for ipv6) | 02:41 |
| bozonius | I did it by sysctl -w ... = 1 | 02:41 |
| gnarface | that will work too but won't persist through reboots | 02:42 |
| bozonius | even with -w? | 02:43 |
| gnarface | yea i think so, but i could be wrong i guess. better test it to make sure. | 02:45 |
| gnarface | just in case you don't know, in the future it may help you to know that they correspond to values in files and sub-directories of /proc/sys that can be read and changed directly with root permission | 02:48 |
| gnarface | so net.ipv4.ip_forward, for example corresponds to /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward | 02:48 |
| gnarface | (this can be useful for finding the names of flags that *aren't* already included in the default comments of the sysctl.conf file) | 02:49 |
| bozonius | ok, I'll have to continue this later... got go see someone | 02:52 |
| bozonius | I am curious what all those other forwarding flags are | 02:52 |
| bozonius | there's the ip_forward flag for ipv4, but for ipv6 there are a bunch, and also ones that correspon for v4 | 02:53 |
| gnarface | yea you can do all sorts of tcp/ip tuning in there | 02:53 |
| gnarface | luckily most of it you'll never have to touch | 02:54 |
| bozonius | forwarding is still not working, though now with a dnsmasq running on the host (ascii), at least I can get dns (somewhat) | 02:54 |
| bozonius | but I still can't ping an actual target outside the local subnet | 02:54 |
| gnarface | you had a firewall up? | 02:54 |
| gnarface | forwarding won't bypass the regular firewall rules | 02:55 |
| bozonius | no not any | 02:55 |
| gnarface | interesting | 02:55 |
| bozonius | yeah | 02:55 |
| gnarface | alright well if you dno't figure it out maybe i can help you later | 02:55 |
| bozonius | sure, thanks | 02:55 |
| bozonius | what is your take on "connman," gnarface | 02:56 |
| gnarface | usually at that point i just start going device-by-device, using tcpdump and ping to see where the packets are falling off the path | 02:56 |
| bozonius | right, and I regularly use wireshark | 02:56 |
| bozonius | which might be overkill | 02:56 |
| bozonius | but | 02:56 |
| gnarface | same diff | 02:56 |
| gnarface | i can't say i've ever used connman | 02:56 |
| bozonius | connman seems to replace "Network" (networkmanager?) in beowulf | 02:57 |
| bozonius | well, I disabled it | 02:57 |
| gnarface | seems like that's possible. the description says it does the same thing but on the command-line | 02:57 |
| gnarface | yea i don't think you actually need it | 02:57 |
| gnarface | it might make life easier, or it might not | 02:57 |
| bozonius | (connman does have a gui) | 02:57 |
| bozonius | networkmanager hardly made it easier many times, early on | 02:58 |
| gnarface | ah, yes i see actually it has several front-ends listed on the arch wiki | 02:58 |
| bozonius | yes | 02:58 |
| bozonius | I also disabled avahi | 02:58 |
| bozonius | is that sinful? | 02:58 |
| bozonius | that wouldn't affect this | 02:58 |
| gnarface | hah, no, it's smart to disable avahi for what you're doing. avahi will down/up network devices without asking | 02:59 |
| bozonius | maybe for discovering dhcp servers, but everything here is static | 02:59 |
| bozonius | :D | 02:59 |
| bozonius | I figure anything *lennart* it is prob best | 02:59 |
| gnarface | i think the demand for avahi stems from a desire to be compatible with Apple's "bonjour" auto-configuring hotplug network stuff | 03:00 |
| * EHeM for one is glad 192.168.56/24 is being used instead of 192.168.0/24 or 192.168.1/24. | 03:00 | |
| bozonius | I'm gonna toodle and help a friend make a spread sheet and maybe earn some money | 03:00 |
| bozonius | avahi was nice to allow my ex-gf to print from her iphone | 03:01 |
| gnarface | yea stuff like that | 03:01 |
| bozonius | avahi was not so nice every time there was an update | 03:01 |
| bozonius | it inevitably broke wireless printing... | 03:01 |
| gnarface | when you just want the network devices to find each other out of the box and you don't care about security, avahi is the way to go | 03:01 |
| gnarface | or at least, its the accepted approach | 03:01 |
| bozonius | sometimes I could fix it again, other times not | 03:01 |
| bozonius | right | 03:01 |
| gnarface | i just don't like it overthinking stuff for me | 03:02 |
| bozonius | and it is actually smart, in a way, but too many surprises | 03:02 |
| bozonius | I hear you | 03:02 |
| gnarface | say i unplug a ethernet cable, i don't want it to ifdown that network device | 03:02 |
| gnarface | but it will | 03:02 |
| bozonius | I like a gui that just makes something easier to configure, but not add ridiculous wizards and the like. I want to know what I am doing | 03:02 |
| bozonius | ok, back later... | 03:03 |
| crimson_king | How to disable a service with sysvinit? (to not start on boot) | 04:48 |
| gnarface | crimson_king: easiest way is with "update-rc.d [package name] disable" | 04:53 |
| gnarface | crimson_king: (check the update-rc.d man page for more details) | 04:55 |
| crimson_king | gnarface, thank you | 04:55 |
| gnarface | no problem | 04:55 |
| furrywolf | must... resist... making... "in the court of"... jokes... | 05:07 |
| bozonius | kk | 05:24 |
| bozonius | Looks like iptables might be necessary for forwarding to work | 05:51 |
| bozonius | can't just set forwarding on | 05:51 |
| mtnman | bozonius: do you mean ip forwarding? | 05:53 |
| bozonius | yes. | 05:54 |
| mtnman | i just set up ip forwarding and found this very helpful: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiIwrvMlpvcAhXly4MKHaRODvMQFggnMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tldp.org%2FHOWTO%2Fhtml_single%2FMasquerading-Simple-HOWTO%2F&usg=AOvVaw115mB1G1UZ_mP0rPzlOmU1 | 05:54 |
| mtnman | oops that wasn't it hang on | 05:54 |
| mtnman | https://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/html_single/Masquerading-Simple-HOWTO/ | 05:55 |
| bozonius | I'm not looking for masquerading per se. I'm trying to get two subnets to talk to each other, that's all. | 05:58 |
| mtnman | ah | 05:58 |
| EHeM | Merely forwarding without NAT doesn't need iptables, merely the appropriate routing table entries. | 05:59 |
| EHeM | Though if you're forwarding, often filtering is a valuable add-on. | 06:00 |
| Leander | bozonius: this sounds like bridging | 06:14 |
| bozonius | actually, I just solved it by installing IPfire and letting IT worry about all this... | 06:20 |
| bozonius | and, yes, Leander, the IPfire VM is using bridging to a NIC on the testbox | 06:21 |
| bozonius | but now I am trying to remember why I did all this... | 06:22 |
| bozonius | something about testing sound... | 06:22 |
| bozonius | PULSE! | 06:22 |
| bozonius | that was it. | 06:22 |
| bozonius | just like on jessie, it seems that pulseaudio won't go away until you obliterate it from the system | 06:31 |
| bozonius | merely unchecking the autostart for session does not quite do the trick. | 06:31 |
| Criggie | pulseaudio made me install devuan instead of debian. | 06:31 |
| bozonius | seems I am getting sound without pulse running | 06:33 |
| bozonius | apulse is not installed | 06:34 |
| holla_ | some apps (firefox e.g.) require pulse, afaik | 06:35 |
| Criggie | I get ... (stops to check first) | 06:35 |
| holla_ | so i don't think it's wise to purge it all together | 06:35 |
| bozonius | apparently not, at least not on beowulf. I am getting sound from firefox somehow | 06:35 |
| Criggie | OK I do have pulseaudio running on devuan, but it works. The previous debian install was kinda togued about. | 06:36 |
| Criggie | you could just stop the pulseaudio service and test | 06:36 |
| Criggie | My next issue is to get ffmpeg installed properly | 06:36 |
| Criggie | THEREs a codebase with a history. | 06:36 |
| holla_ | well i would stick with pulse and only disable it on demand (pasuspender(1)) | 06:37 |
| bozonius | Criggie: DId you see what I wrote? I tried to stop pulseaudio, but it would not die | 06:37 |
| bozonius | even after I logged out/back in | 06:38 |
| bozonius | I've seen this on other systems also. | 06:38 |
| bozonius | gnarface, fsmithred: Looks like we have speaker sound on beowulf, without apulse or pulse | 06:38 |
| holla_ | bozonius: cp'd /etc/pulse/client.conf to '~/.config/pulse/' and disabled it there? | 06:39 |
| bozonius | holla_: No. I did not. The session UI in the desktop pretty much says by unchecking the box for pulseaudio (under autostart), it it supposed to not automatically start when you log in. | 06:40 |
| bozonius | It warns you that you may have to log out first, and I did that, but it was still running. In fact, there were 2 children of pid 1 running pulseaudio | 06:41 |
| bozonius | I was following the rules, obeying the laws, respecting my teachers and law enforcement, but it did no good | 06:42 |
| bozonius | heheheh. This is lxqt, btw, on beowulf devuan | 06:42 |
| bozonius | holla_: I will try to remember that trick in the future. But it's OK, I don't really want pulseaudio on any of my systems anyway | 06:42 |
| bozonius | (thanks) | 06:43 |
| bozonius | 0 | 06:45 |
| holla_ | bozonius: yw - yet again, i don't think it's sensible to get rid of pulse since many a pkg relies on it. even if you purge it, it will get pulled in again if you don't pin it | 07:02 |
| bozonius | if a pkg DOES require pulse, there is always apulse | 07:08 |
| gnarface | i still can't figure out how to get apulse working with multi-arch software | 07:12 |
| gnarface | i don't know if it can | 07:12 |
| gnarface | some of the more poorly behaved commercial software for linux is still a mix of 32-bit and 64-bit libraries (i assume because windows is that way) and apulse seems to only work for stuff that's been compiled against one single arch | 07:13 |
| bozonius | I apologize to you all if I was sounding a bit authoritative. I'm not an expert on this. | 07:14 |
| gnarface | oh there might be a simple fix for that, i just don't know enough about library linking | 07:14 |
| gnarface | the point is just that apulse isn't a full replacement, yet | 07:14 |
| bozonius | I have been able to get sound with apulse pretty consistently across many programs. | 07:14 |
| gnarface | though it should be fine for open source stuff, because for open source stuff, there's no driving reason to have a mix of library architectures | 07:15 |
| bozonius | and for commercial stuff... well, maybe there are open source alternatives? | 07:15 |
| * bozonius never pays for software anymore | 07:15 | |
| gnarface | i can *almost* supplant all the actually required pulseaudio features with some clever ~/.asoundrc customizations bash scripting | 07:16 |
| gnarface | one or two things still elude me | 07:16 |
| bozonius | you are miles ahead of me here... | 07:16 |
| gnarface | i got a lot of help from #alsa | 07:16 |
| bozonius | I look at alsa configs and immediately get a bad case of hives | 07:16 |
| bozonius | I have as well. | 07:17 |
| gnarface | its weird, for sure | 07:17 |
| bozonius | of course, grub.cfg files are not exactly clear either | 07:17 |
| bozonius | many of these files do not have extnensive docs, or they have docs but don't explain things clearly | 07:17 |
| bozonius | (I'm sure the docs are very clear to people who already understand them) | 07:18 |
| bozonius | part of the problem is nomenclature... too much doc out there includes words that are just plain incorrect | 07:18 |
| bozonius | thought that's true for a lot of other writing these days | 07:19 |
| bozonius | bareos backup, for instance, talks about "job defaults" (jobdefs) but you can have multiple defaults, which doesn't quite make sense. | 07:19 |
| bozonius | what it is, really, is that a group of jobs can share certain defaults. | 07:20 |
| bozonius | what I cant stand though is that many times, a setting doesn't truly override a default. | 07:20 |
| bozonius | anyway... | 07:20 |
| bozonius | I just got my usb headset to work in beowulf in a VM running under ascii | 07:21 |
| bozonius | gnarface: OTOH, ff is 52.9, and I think the support for alsa ends later | 07:26 |
| bozonius | so a better test would be a later backport for beowulf | 07:26 |
| bozonius | hmmm. according to what i've read, the support ended with 59. So how is it that I can run 59.2 without pulse and still get sound ok? | 07:47 |
| EHeM | Even xfce4 depends on xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin. | 07:48 |
| bozonius | I'm guessing that (maybe) Devuan is building their Firefox with alsa enabled? Or possibly debian? | 07:53 |
| gnarface | hard to say, but i thought mozilla actually removed it for a while then put it back a couple versions later, was what actually happened | 07:54 |
| bozonius | but do you agree maybe a much more recent ff version might make a better test? | 08:02 |
| bozonius | in early 2017, people chatting on reddit were concerned that eventually ff and even chrome would no longer support alsa | 08:02 |
| bozonius | and that even the code for alsa support would be completely stripped | 08:02 |
| Jjp137 | for firefox-esr 52.9.0, the Debian package is built with ALSA support enabled (see: https://salsa.debian.org/mozilla-team/firefox/blob/debian/52.9.0esr-1/debian/browser.mozconfig.in#L50) | 08:03 |
| golinux | That's progress needed for a 'modern' browser </sarcasm> | 08:03 |
| Jjp137 | (commit: https://salsa.debian.org/mozilla-team/firefox/commit/e9f8220eb5d8e60490cf0a525eddd2a6199c5511, bug report about it: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=857281) | 08:03 |
| bozonius | Jjp137: thanks for that info | 08:05 |
| Jjp137 | np | 08:05 |
| gnarface | bozonius: i'm still using the firefox-esr version in ceres, except in the rare cases a website complains about it | 08:06 |
| gnarface | (i have both installed) | 08:06 |
| bozonius | problem though, is eventually, mozilla devs are threatening to remove the build option | 08:06 |
| gnarface | i forsee more forks of firefox coming in the future | 08:06 |
| bozonius | firefork browser | 08:06 |
| bozonius | gnarface: you have ceres installed? How did you do that? | 08:07 |
| bozonius | for beowulf, i just installed ascii and updated the sources to point to beowulf, apt-get update and upgrade | 08:08 |
| bozonius | I might want to try a ceres, just for the heck | 08:08 |
| gnarface | bozonius: uh... it was a pre-existing debian sid install that i just "upgraded" in-line. upgrading from ascii *or* beowulf may actually work too though. | 08:11 |
| gnarface | (standard practice would be to go through beowulf to ceres, but due to the current unfinished state of beowulf, jumping over it from ascii might be a better choice for now... i'm not sure, it's not something i've tried yet) | 08:11 |
| gnarface | actually though, someone else here DID report that upgrading from ascii to ceres did work, at least before beowulf was an option | 08:12 |
| bozonius | I could try these myself I suppose | 08:12 |
| gnarface | heh, well don't nuke a working ascii install to try it | 08:12 |
| gnarface | or at least, make sure you take a backup first | 08:12 |
| bozonius | god no... | 08:12 |
| bozonius | these are all VMs to start with, and I won't be touching the ascii runnng the testbox | 08:13 |
| bozonius | backup first, or snapshot | 08:13 |
| gnarface | i'm only running it because some of the higher-budget commercial titles won't work with the newest nvidia drivers still compatible in ascii (mostly Blizzard's fault) | 08:13 |
| gnarface | and that's actually been the case for a while | 08:14 |
| gnarface | that's why i upgraded this install to sid back then | 08:14 |
| bozonius | who/what is Blizzard | 08:14 |
| golinux | There are actually some newer packages in ASCII than in beowulf (and maybe ceres too) | 08:14 |
| gnarface | bozonius: they're a commercial game creator/publisher. | 08:14 |
| bozonius | golinux: I've successfully upgraded ascii to beowulf. Which packages are those? | 08:15 |
| golinux | I am the wrogn person to ask. | 08:16 |
| golinux | I'm still on Jessie. | 08:16 |
| bozonius | but the right person to tell me this in the first place? | 08:16 |
| bozonius | ie, how did you know this to be true at all? | 08:16 |
| golinux | I am kind of the Devusn librarian | 08:17 |
| bozonius | ok, so you've seen these packages but don't remember which ones? | 08:17 |
| golinux | And follow all channels. | 08:17 |
| gnarface | it's the *elogind* *polkit* stuff, isn't it? | 08:18 |
| golinux | I've read about probably | 08:18 |
| gnarface | stuff related to slim/lightdm? | 08:18 |
| golinux | oops two thoughts at once | 08:18 |
| golinux | I has been discussed here, on the forum and dng. | 08:19 |
| EHeM | I discovered the existance of elogind and promptly felt sick to my stomach; it is not on any of my systems. | 08:19 |
| golinux | Why? | 08:19 |
| gnarface | bozonius: anyway, i'm not sure it matters unless you're using a graphical login | 08:20 |
| EHeM | Appeared to be depending on *lots* of things which were otherwise unncessary. | 08:21 |
| golinux | What about session management? | 08:21 |
| golinux | It is defanged of systemd thanks to gentoo. | 08:22 |
| gnarface | EHeM: hmmm, the apt-get option "--no-install-recommends" might be of interest to you | 08:22 |
| EHeM | I'm aware. | 08:22 |
| gnarface | oh ok, just making sure | 08:22 |
| MinceR | elogind still used to kill processes on logout by default | 08:22 |
| golinux | It solved a lot of problems with the desktop | 08:22 |
| MinceR | so i'd be careful with it | 08:22 |
| golinux | Isn't elogind default in ASCII | 08:23 |
| EHeM | I'm sure there are situations where elogind is beneficial, but mine is not one (killing things on logout isn't valuable to me right now). | 08:23 |
| gnarface | heh, i gave up on graphical login managers back when graphics drivers were the usual problem with them. now days i've just grown out of them. | 08:23 |
| bozonius | is elogind really needed? I mean what did people do back in the old days before elogind came along? | 08:23 |
| gnarface | pam-logind? | 08:23 |
| gnarface | something like that | 08:24 |
| MinceR | they had consolekit, and before that they had X running as root | 08:24 |
| MinceR | i prefer to use startx | 08:24 |
| gnarface | oh yea, suid root x | 08:24 |
| MinceR | more flexible and doesn't need any of this cancer | 08:24 |
| gnarface | most the graphics drivers have been fixed so you don't even need to run it as root anymore | 08:24 |
| golinux | Bye. Sleep time | 08:24 |
| MinceR | o/ | 08:24 |
| bozonius | I seem to recall somewhat graphical logins dating back to... oh, I don't know. Maybe mandrake? | 08:25 |
| bozonius | night golinux | 08:25 |
| bozonius | I don't remember if I had to startx or the like... can't remember that far back | 08:26 |
| bozonius | back in the days when linux was still nice... | 08:26 |
| gnarface | startx has always been around as far back as i can remember. there were a lot fewer options for graphical login back then though | 08:27 |
| bozonius | yeah, maybe you are right | 08:27 |
| bozonius | graphical logins have been around so long now, I am used to them | 08:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/freenode-launches-new-job-board-two-more-spectre-security-holes-discovered-debian-joins | 10:40 |
| asdggg | this should apply to debian aswell, is it possible to disable the automatic insserv'ing of services installed by apt? | 11:38 |
| asdggg | there is the rc.d policy file to prevent the automatic (re)starting but I don't even want installed app to add themselves to the runlevels at all | 11:39 |
| gnarface | i don't know of any such feature but that doesn't mean there isn't one | 11:43 |
| gnarface | it seems like something the individual packges would have to be set up to do | 11:43 |
| gnarface | maybe if you change the debconf priority threshold to whatever setting makes it ask the most questions, it will ask you that question too | 11:44 |
| asdggg | yes, seems like its in the .postinst files of the debs :s | 11:44 |
| fsmithred | sysv-rc-conf | 11:48 |
| fsmithred | easy way to remove all the rc links | 11:49 |
| fsmithred | otherwise, 'update-rc.d -f <servicename> remove | 11:50 |
| asdggg | sure but that is what I want to prevent, installing something and then removing something the install did | 11:51 |
| fsmithred | I think your choices are 1. don't install it, or 2. repackage it differently | 11:52 |
| gnarface | its a good idea | 11:54 |
| gnarface | but mostly what i've seen is services either add themselves automatically, or else leave it to you to enable them manually | 11:54 |
| gnarface | i don't know for sure that some may not ask if debconf priority is set low enough though | 11:55 |
| gnarface | i know some packages will ask whether they're allowed to restart services during install | 11:56 |
| asdggg | interactive stuff isn't an option either | 11:57 |
| asdggg | best way is probably to do some apt wrapper which replaces update-rc.d with some return 0 script during installations lol | 11:59 |
| asdggg | this would fork for anything but a sysv-rc update | 12:00 |
| gnarface | i wonder if you could use the alternatives system for that | 12:02 |
| gnarface | it seems possible | 12:02 |
| fsmithred | I think the package install scripts are supposed to use invoke-rc.d instead of update-rc.d, so maybe a dpkg-divert of invoke-rc.d would do it | 12:07 |
| fsmithred | but then you'll have to deal with the ones you want to keep the links | 12:08 |
| asdggg | tbh it would be way better if packages could just echo something like "if you want to enable this service use update-rc.d blah blah" instead of force enabling themselves | 12:10 |
| asdggg | but I guess its how debian works | 12:10 |
| fsmithred | yeah, you install something, and it just works, usually with sane defaults | 12:15 |
| asdggg | its a way to do it but in 95% of the cases when you install a service you need/want to configure it first before you start/insserv it | 12:20 |
| Leander | that's something that has been bothering me for a while too, and I see it as related to the issue of having no firewall up by default | 13:07 |
| armin | Leander: you're actually wishing for a firewall that is enabled by default? | 13:23 |
| armin | Leander: weird. still, ferm might be worth a short look. | 13:23 |
| armin | Leander: and no it won't solve that issue. | 13:23 |
| Leander | armin: it's just that services are started by default, for instance sshd, even though you might not want to be reachable from a local network | 13:24 |
| Leander | I could imagine that by default, we'd have the base distribution with no firewall and no automatic enabling of services, and then there could be a more user-friendly derivative on which services are enabled by default *but* there's also a basic firewall | 13:29 |
| elio_4 | but a whole preconfigured firewall isn't needed. On the other hand the default config of any service could bind to 127.0.0.1 for a better security in general | 13:30 |
| gnarface | aren't there any firewall packages that are enabled by default? | 13:31 |
| gnarface | i figured there would be | 13:31 |
| gnarface | i mean, once you install them that is | 13:31 |
| Leander | I assume that most of them bind to localhost, indeed, but that's less user-friendly because you'd have to tinker with the config files | 13:31 |
| fsmithred | arno makes you go through a debconf dialog. I don't know about other firewalls. | 13:32 |
| Leander | I never installed anything more than iptables, so I don't know | 13:32 |
| armin | Leander: that is a problem - yes. installing a service is different from starting a service. i totally agree with that one. but i fail to see how a firewall solves this. | 14:11 |
| armin | Leander: sure it would handle all cases of accidentally started programs that open listening sockets, but it still seems like not the right solution to the problem to me. | 14:12 |
| Leander | armin: I never said it was a solution, I just think that the lack of firewall can create an additional security issue | 14:13 |
| armin | Leander: true. | 14:13 |
| Tashtari | Hey all. Does any mechanism exist to apply patches on top of files that are liable to get updated by a package? | 18:51 |
| Tashtari | Specifically... I'm trying to theme xfce4, and I'm finding I will need to change some of the /usr/share/applications/*.desktop files in order that certain applications will use different icons than the default. | 18:52 |
| Tashtari | And I'd like to follow the path of least resistance, if one exists. :) | 18:53 |
| golinux | Tashtari: Just put the icons you want to use intp /usr/share/icons and themes into /usr/share/themes. Then select those options from the Xfce settings menu. | 19:53 |
| Tashtari | golinux: The problem with that is that I effectively want to split the responsibility of what is currently a single icon. Currently, for example, there's an icon of a monitor. The display control panel uses this to denote actual monitors and also to denote the control panel itself. | 21:26 |
| Tashtari | I want the control panel to be denoted by a different icon than the monitor, so I can't just replace the monitor icon. | 21:27 |
| Tashtari | I have to actually change the .desktop file for the display control panel. And that file is liable to be overwritten by an update of the relevant package. | 21:27 |
| ik5pvx | hello | 21:34 |
| fsmithred | Tashtari, if you make your own .desktop files, give them unique names, and they will remain. | 21:34 |
| fsmithred | if you want to replace a file in a package with your own, in a way that it won't get replaced on upgrade, use dpkg-divert | 21:35 |
| Tashtari | fsmithred: Interesting, I'll look into that. Thanks. | 21:36 |
| ik5pvx | do I understand correctly that using "merged" in sources.list is equivalent to having "main contrib non-free" ? | 21:43 |
| fsmithred | nope | 21:43 |
| ik5pvx | so what does merged stand for? | 21:44 |
| fsmithred | merged means you get devuan packages and debian packages | 21:44 |
| ik5pvx | oh, ok | 21:44 |
| fsmithred | amprolla merges the repositories in a smart way | 21:44 |
| fsmithred | i.e. won't let you install systemd | 21:44 |
| ik5pvx | ah, cool thanks | 21:44 |
| fsmithred | there are a couple of repos that have /devuan instead of /merged | 21:44 |
| ik5pvx | I'll update my sources.list then | 21:44 |
| fsmithred | those only have devuan packages, but that's for experimental stuff | 21:45 |
| ik5pvx | understood | 21:45 |
| fsmithred | main contrib and non-free works the same as in debian | 21:45 |
| ik5pvx | for jessie and ascii I should be fine with merged <codename> main contrib non-free, then? | 21:45 |
| fsmithred | yes | 21:45 |
| ik5pvx | and there's a testing with the same meaning as debian, correct? | 21:46 |
| fsmithred | for ascii, use deb.devuan.org, not auto.mirror or packages.devuan.org | 21:46 |
| fsmithred | don't use testing/stable/unstable words | 21:46 |
| fsmithred | use codenames | 21:46 |
| ik5pvx | ack | 21:46 |
| fsmithred | sometimes what's testing in devuan is stable in debian | 21:46 |
| fsmithred | (not at the moment) | 21:46 |
| * ik5pvx updates a couple VMs with this info | 21:47 | |
| ik5pvx | ehm, so what's the codename equivalent of testing? | 21:56 |
| ik5pvx | maybe I should just track ceres (unstable) | 21:57 |
| fsmithred | beowulf | 21:57 |
| fsmithred | neither ceres nor beowulf has had much work done yet | 21:57 |
| ik5pvx | understandable, ascii has just been released, no? | 21:58 |
| fsmithred | if you upgrade from ascii, some of the devuanized packages will remain, because there aren't newer versions in beowulf or ceres | 21:58 |
| fsmithred | that said, some people are using them and they basically work | 21:58 |
| ik5pvx | at the moment I have 2 VMs, one with jessie, and one with "testing", which I understand is not a great idea of a codename | 21:59 |
| fsmithred | is it ascii or beowulf? | 21:59 |
| ik5pvx | I'll prepare a clone of jessie and update it to ascii | 21:59 |
| fsmithred | which kernel is in your testing vm? | 22:00 |
| ik5pvx | I just put it in as testing, I thought the aliases had the same meaning as in debian. So I honestly don't know what I've been tracking | 22:00 |
| ik5pvx | 4.9.0-6 | 22:00 |
| fsmithred | ascii kernel | 22:00 |
| ik5pvx | ok, let me do some renaming here | 22:01 |
| fsmithred | look in /etc/devuan_version, os_version and debian_version | 22:01 |
| fsmithred | or maybe check the version of libc6 | 22:01 |
| ik5pvx | yeah it says ascii | 22:02 |
| ik5pvx | hm, there's no lsb-release? | 22:02 |
| fsmithred | no | 22:02 |
| KatolaZ | ik5pvx: lsb_release -a | 22:03 |
| fsmithred | thanks, I forgot about that | 22:04 |
| ik5pvx | thanks | 22:04 |
| ik5pvx | well ok, I guess I'll let those VMs update. Thanks for the help fsmithred | 22:24 |
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