cehteh | eh .. when i browse the package list then 'LXC' is empty https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/lxc .. does that mean LXC is not packaged or is just the information on that webpage mossing? | 02:18 |
---|---|---|
buZz | cehteh: thats a source repo, are you searching for packages? | 02:21 |
cehteh | yeah | 02:22 |
buZz | there's a browser here http://devuanpackages.viralds.it/ but not so userfriendly | 02:23 |
cehteh | actually i am just checking out, i am utterly pissed by setting up a debian server and systemd constantly throws me bricks on the road, race conditions and unreliable stuff .. i just want to know if libvirt/lxc works in devuan | 02:23 |
buZz | here's the list on my workstation ; https://hastebin.com/vedeyokehu.rb | 02:23 |
buZz | yeah totally, should work just like debian pre-systemd | 02:24 |
buZz | libvirt-dev/stable,stable-security 3.0.0-4+deb9u3 amd64 | 02:24 |
cehteh | but with actual packages i presume? :) | 02:24 |
buZz | yes :P | 02:24 |
cehteh | ok i give it a try tomorrow | 02:24 |
buZz | seen the hastebin link? :) | 02:24 |
cehteh | yep | 02:24 |
buZz | alright :) | 02:24 |
cehteh | i can debootstrap a devuan system as usual? anything special to note? | 02:29 |
golinux | cehteh: The package list is at pkginfo.devuan.org | 02:30 |
cehteh | thanks | 02:36 |
Xenguy | golinux: That process you wanted to kill: sometimes 'top' will bring the offening process to the top of the screen, and then you can press 'k', and confirm the process kill | 05:01 |
Xenguy | *offending | 05:01 |
Xenguy | or just press 'k', find the process number, and enter that | 05:01 |
Xenguy | It's an alternate root from using 'ps' etc. | 05:02 |
Xenguy | damn, route | 05:02 |
golinux | Xenguy: Hey there. Up for a brief chat before i head to bed? | 05:14 |
Xenguy | golinux: Sure | 05:25 |
ServiceRobot | howdy everyone | 05:35 |
ServiceRobot | so after some experimentation, it seems to me I shouldn't bother with openrc as it doesn't even replace sysv-rc yet | 05:36 |
ServiceRobot | in all honesty, what do you guys recommend. waiting for better openrc support and sticking with sysvinit, or keep hammering at it? | 05:42 |
Criggie | sad - on a confused centos box at work and yum said `ERROR: Trying to remove "systemd", which is protected` | 05:57 |
Criggie | I'm sure that would cure the problems :) | 05:58 |
gnarface | ServiceRobot: i may have had sysv-rc and sysvinit-core backwards last night, just fyi. i'm not convinced openrc isn't effectively stand-alone. i still think you're mistaken about it relying on sysvinit and you're just confusing some sysvinit scripts that were included for compatibility with actual sysvinit. | 06:06 |
gnarface | if you stay connected longer, you will eventually get to talk to someone who is actually running openrc on ascii and maybe they can clear it up for you better. | 06:07 |
ServiceRobot | alright. I probably would have better luck using the installer but I prefer debootstrap | 06:08 |
gnarface | and, if you take another look at the dependencies, you'll see that whatever sysv-rc is, it can be substituted for something called file-rc, which maybe is more familiar to you? | 06:08 |
gnarface | i don't know for sure, but i suspect you're making a mountain out of a mole hill | 06:09 |
ServiceRobot | I tend to do that when I don't see the solution | 06:09 |
golinux | gnarface: the sysvinit scripts are still needed | 06:09 |
gnarface | golinux: oh? is there actually a openrc setup in some other distro where they are not though? i thought that other guy who was using openrc chased his tail about this for days too, only to discover that it was literally nothing. | 06:10 |
golinux | I am not the one to answer that question, unfortunately. | 06:11 |
Chanku | From what I can tell, OpenRC can replace /sbin/init with openrc-init, starting with OpenRC 0.25 (although I don't think this is default). | 06:16 |
Chanku | ALthough Devuan ASCII ships 0.23 | 06:16 |
ServiceRobot | ah, so if that's the case why does devuan claim openrc is an alternative? | 06:17 |
ServiceRobot | I may as well stick with the default configuration until better support is added then | 06:17 |
Chanku | Well technically it runs /sbin/init which then starts openrc | 06:17 |
ServiceRobot | right, but it doesn't manage services? | 06:18 |
Chanku | OpenRC does | 06:18 |
ServiceRobot | well, when I debootstrapped devuan openrc status shows all services as down. they're up according to service --status-all though | 06:18 |
ServiceRobot | very strange | 06:18 |
Chanku | Really you don't have to use sysvinit as init to use OpenRC in the end. | 06:18 |
ServiceRobot | well I can't remove sysvinit completely either. probably won't until later. | 06:19 |
ServiceRobot | I can't find any good directions for a complete replacement, or how it would even work | 06:19 |
Chanku | I've done some init experimenting | 06:20 |
Chanku | even writing an entire init in Python 3 at one point :P | 06:20 |
ServiceRobot | that must have taken a lot of work | 06:20 |
Chanku | Ehh, not particularly | 06:20 |
Chanku | It's a very basic init. | 06:20 |
Chanku | It doesn't do process management, beyond what is necessary (It starts a process manager that it leaves that work to) | 06:21 |
ServiceRobot | but basically, all I want to know is if simply installing the openrc package from debootstrap is enough for setting it up. it doesn't seem like it is | 06:21 |
ServiceRobot | I don't know what else the installer does with it | 06:21 |
Chanku | I wouldn't be able to tell you, I wouldn't know. | 06:22 |
ServiceRobot | well I guess I'll keep waiting then | 06:22 |
Chanku | It's best to think of OpenRC as a 'second-stage init' if that makes any sense I guess. | 06:22 |
ServiceRobot | then what's at the first stage? | 06:23 |
Chanku | /sbin/init is tasked with doing some minimal things and then starting OpenRC which does everything else. | 06:23 |
ServiceRobot | ah, but then what is /sbin/init | 06:23 |
ServiceRobot | if it's not openrc-init (which isn't added until 0.34 I think) | 06:23 |
Chanku | (Of course in OpenRC 0.25+ openrc-init can be used, which just starts openrc directly) | 06:23 |
ServiceRobot | oh, it's 0.25 | 06:23 |
Chanku | In any case, /sbin/init is (for the most part) SysVinit/init | 06:24 |
ServiceRobot | right, but what does it currently do | 06:24 |
ServiceRobot | right, so sysvinit starts up all my services along with openrc then | 06:24 |
ServiceRobot | and openrc doesn't start up my services, which is what I want. | 06:24 |
Chanku | I have to think it's a configuration issue. | 06:25 |
Chanku | I don't really touch debootstrap or anything, so I can't entirely help you. | 06:25 |
ServiceRobot | if that's the case, I don't know what it would be, or the solution | 06:25 |
ServiceRobot | I suppose what I would need to do is ensure sysvinit doesn't start my services, and hand it off to openrc instead? but sysvinit has to remain there until openrc-init can replace it | 06:26 |
ServiceRobot | so that's what I need to do I suppose. I'll wait for more info | 06:26 |
Chanku | https://wiki.debian.org/OpenRC#Try_It_Out | 06:27 |
Chanku | That might actually help | 06:27 |
ServiceRobot | I already read it | 06:27 |
ServiceRobot | it doesn't answer my question | 06:27 |
ServiceRobot | according to the wiki, "This will replace sysv-rc with OpenRC." | 06:28 |
Chanku | Have you ran: " for file in /etc/rc0.d/K*; do s=`basename $(readlink "$file")` ; /etc/init.d/$s stop; done "? | 06:28 |
ServiceRobot | but when installing openrc sysv-rc remains. it can't be removed | 06:28 |
Chanku | wait nvm I misread that >.> | 06:28 |
ServiceRobot | that's if the system is in transition. this is a fresh install | 06:28 |
ServiceRobot | but it doesn't seem like sysv-rc is replaced. in fact, both packages are installed. it's really confusing | 06:29 |
Chanku | Have you rebooted? | 06:29 |
ServiceRobot | yes, of course | 06:29 |
ServiceRobot | it's a fresh install | 06:29 |
Chanku | I am not sure how debootstrap works, to be completely honest, but perhaps act like it's a system in transition then? | 06:30 |
ServiceRobot | I'm trying to do a fresh install with openrc with sys junk removed or at the very least disabled until future versions | 06:30 |
Chanku | Although the installer would probably make things considerably easier on you | 06:30 |
ServiceRobot | let me just reread the page again. I must be missing something | 06:30 |
ServiceRobot | nah, the cli is much easier and I can see exactly what's going on | 06:31 |
Chanku | I...would highly disagree, as evidenced by your issues. | 06:31 |
ServiceRobot | it's not really an "issue" so much as confusion due to lack of information | 06:31 |
ServiceRobot | the system does boot perfectly fine but doesn't use openrc. I think you might be right in that "for file in /etc/rc0.d/K*; do s=`basename $(readlink "$file")` ; /etc/init.d/$s stop; done" needs to be executed | 06:32 |
Chanku | I mean, I would argue that the recommended way to install a Devuan install with OpenRC is to use the installer or transition after install. | 06:32 |
Chanku | Hence the lack of documentation because, it wasn't considered. :| | 06:33 |
ServiceRobot | but it should be possible to install it the first time with no transition needed | 06:33 |
ServiceRobot | how can something like that not be considered for an init-freedom distro? | 06:33 |
Chanku | Because the majority of people don't use debootstrap to do a fresh install of a system. | 06:33 |
ServiceRobot | that's not what I mean. the installer would install the same packages. I can't really see what's going on under the hood to know | 06:34 |
Chanku | Have you checked the forums at all? I haven't been on them recently, but someone might have already documented it there. | 06:35 |
Chanku | Keep in mind I'm just a user | 06:35 |
ServiceRobot | it shouldn't make a difference wether I do it from the installer or debootstrap. if I know what packages I need to include and exclude, and what to configure, it should make no difference | 06:35 |
ServiceRobot | that's what I'm trying to figure out | 06:35 |
golinux | There have been some openrc chatter on the forum | 06:36 |
golinux | have > has | 06:37 |
ServiceRobot | ya, looking there may yield better results | 06:38 |
ServiceRobot | wow, I already found something | 06:38 |
ServiceRobot | https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2251 | 06:38 |
ServiceRobot | choose-init may be what I need | 06:39 |
Chanku | hopefully that will help out. | 06:39 |
ServiceRobot | I'm gonna restart my computer a bunch to test some things out. sorry if I can't explain what I'm trying to do | 06:40 |
ServiceRobot | alright, I think I have it somewhat figured out now | 07:13 |
ServiceRobot | openrc replaces sysv-rc, but sysvinit-core and sysvinit-utils are needed for /sbin/init | 07:13 |
ServiceRobot | the question is now what does init-system-helpers do then? | 07:17 |
ServiceRobot | the description on the debian website doesn't give a lot of details | 07:17 |
ServiceRobot | it provides an "abstraction for enabling, disabling, starting, and stopping services", whatever that means | 07:18 |
gnarface | ServiceRobot: it's just some utility scripts | 07:24 |
gnarface | and their respective man pages | 07:25 |
ServiceRobot | ya, I just read through them. at first they seemed like alternative commands for service management, but I'm not sure what it means by "abstraction" | 07:25 |
gnarface | that's the definition of an abstraction | 07:26 |
ServiceRobot | when I run rc-status command (openrc), no services are started, yet when I run service --status-all, their are services started | 07:26 |
ServiceRobot | so it seems like it also manages services? | 07:26 |
gnarface | yes | 07:27 |
gnarface | `service cups start` | 07:27 |
gnarface | is the same thing as | 07:27 |
gnarface | `/etc/init.d/cups start` | 07:27 |
ServiceRobot | then why bother having openrc or sysv-rc if "service" does the same job? | 07:27 |
gnarface | i never saw the point of that, but it's been around since redhat | 07:27 |
gnarface | it came from redhat at some point | 07:27 |
ServiceRobot | ya, I saw that too | 07:27 |
ServiceRobot | but why bother with openrc or sysv-rc if it also does the same thing? | 07:28 |
gnarface | different config syntax | 07:28 |
gnarface | presumably | 07:28 |
gnarface | it's a rearranging deck chairs | 07:28 |
ServiceRobot | right, but from what I can tell it takes the place of openrc/sysv-rc. or does it use one of them? | 07:29 |
gnarface | what? no, think of the init-system-helpers as just a front-end for any other init system | 07:32 |
ServiceRobot | so it's a frontend to openrc then? | 07:32 |
gnarface | things like that "service" script are just meant to provide a common interface for service management regardless of your init system choice. they used to care about that type of shit before systemd came along. | 07:32 |
gnarface | it's supposed to be front-end for any init system, openrc included. | 07:33 |
ServiceRobot | right, I was shocked that debian even had a package like that | 07:33 |
gnarface | and they ALL relied on "init" traditionally, before systemd came along. | 07:33 |
ServiceRobot | but how is it a "frontend". as in, if I remove openrc, it won't work independently? if that's the case it's weird that rc-status shows every service down | 07:34 |
gnarface | whatever is up with rc-status is probably not related | 07:34 |
gnarface | it's a "frontend" in the sense that it's a cheesy 10 line wrapper script | 07:35 |
ServiceRobot | so the service command does use openrc to manage services then? I'd have to do more testing if that's the case | 07:35 |
gnarface | it would be easier for you to figure out how it's possible for this to happen by looking at it then asking me | 07:35 |
ServiceRobot | I did take a look | 07:35 |
gnarface | it should use whatever init system you currently have installed | 07:36 |
ServiceRobot | but how does it "use it". I better look at the code more closely | 07:36 |
gnarface | ok to be fair it's 243 lines, including comments | 07:37 |
ServiceRobot | ya, it's hard to tell what's going on. lol | 07:37 |
gnarface | but it is just a wrapper | 07:37 |
ServiceRobot | ah, I see | 07:37 |
ServiceRobot | "update_openrc_started_symlinks() { | 07:37 |
ServiceRobot | # maintain the symlinks of /run/openrc/started so that | 07:37 |
ServiceRobot | # rc-status works with the service command as well" | 07:37 |
gnarface | heh, yea that looks like you want that | 07:38 |
ServiceRobot | I guess so I can easily switch between inits and keep services running normally? | 07:38 |
ServiceRobot | that's actually great. debian used to consider that? | 07:38 |
gnarface | the package management should be able to do that for you yes. | 07:38 |
gnarface | yea, that used to work in debian too | 07:38 |
gnarface | lately they've been throwing stuff overboard if nobody under the age of 30 can remember what it's for, but they used to preserve functionality, yes. | 07:39 |
gnarface | they used to not have an obvious corporate agenda | 07:39 |
ServiceRobot | I only started using linux at the beginning of 2016 and haven't used windows AT ALL since | 07:39 |
gnarface | hey good for you man | 07:39 |
gnarface | better late than never | 07:39 |
gnarface | there's some readme files in /usr/share/doc/init-system-helpers for invoke-rc.d and policy-rc.d that look informative too | 07:40 |
gnarface | you might be interested in reading them over | 07:40 |
ServiceRobot | ya. I used Ubuntu 14.04 when I first started. about right before systemd took over everything I think | 07:40 |
ServiceRobot | I did read them | 07:40 |
gnarface | oh, i didn't. i was just making sure you saw them. | 07:40 |
ServiceRobot | hmm, it claims "rc-status works with the service command as well" | 07:41 |
ServiceRobot | but rc-status shows services as down. something else must be wrong then | 07:41 |
ServiceRobot | I'll figure it out. I'm glad I'm starting to see what's going on | 07:41 |
ServiceRobot | in any case adding other init systems like runit should be a breeze with init-system-helpers then | 07:42 |
gnarface | if you're doing this all from debootstrap, it might help you to just run through the installer once in expert mode, choose openrc and literally nothing else, then compare the package list with your debootstrap chroot | 07:42 |
ServiceRobot | nah, I figured it out through checking dependencies | 07:43 |
gnarface | well, in ascii the dependencies are pretty solid for the most part, but it's subject to human error | 07:43 |
ServiceRobot | I'm installing it onto a usb currently | 07:43 |
gnarface | in beowulf and ceres they're far from bullet-proof | 07:43 |
ServiceRobot | I think I have to change the initramfs or it won't boot on other computers but I haven't tried yet | 07:44 |
ServiceRobot | which is why for now I plan on using sysvinit-core/sysvinit-utils/openrc until more support is added for alternatives | 07:45 |
ServiceRobot | I think I can make it work | 07:45 |
gnarface | systemd resists removal | 07:45 |
ServiceRobot | ya, I figured that out from using Arch. which is why I'm using Artix now. it's not perfect but it's getting there | 07:45 |
ServiceRobot | I just hope Devuan works with my LEMP setup, i386 packages, and java. there's a lot I'm hoping doesn't explode | 07:46 |
ServiceRobot | when I gave a different distro a try the jre installation wasn't reading cacerts, preventing java applications from doing TLS handshakes | 07:47 |
ServiceRobot | really freaking weird and very specific but hair-pulling as well | 07:48 |
ServiceRobot | alright, signing off. might be back. might not be | 07:51 |
V-H | Hello | 11:37 |
gnarface | hello | 11:38 |
V-H | I have an issue with devuan jessie and also with devuan ascii | 11:39 |
V-H | Let me know if someone is up for the chat. I'll be waiting. | 11:39 |
gnarface | you shouldn't do that on IRC | 11:39 |
V-H | no? | 11:39 |
gnarface | almost nobody will ever take you up on that | 11:39 |
V-H | should I just post in devuan forum? | 11:39 |
gnarface | no, it's weird, but here it's actually customary to just spill your guts about the problem, then wait | 11:39 |
gnarface | don't ask for permission or an audience first | 11:40 |
V-H | Oh. So I should just list what's the problem | 11:40 |
gnarface | there's people watching who will only come out of the woodwork if you offer specifics | 11:40 |
gnarface | yea | 11:40 |
V-H | Ok. | 11:40 |
gnarface | if it's a large paste, use a pastebin like paste.debian.net | 11:40 |
V-H | ok | 11:40 |
gnarface | you'll be auto-kicked if you paste more than 2 or 3 lines ... there's been a spam bot issue you see | 11:41 |
V-H | ok thanks | 11:41 |
V-H | I am using devuan jessie with xfce, on my system > print settings, the add (add printer that is) button is inactive. | 11:43 |
V-H | This happened after "» Latest devuan jessie update causing authentication problems" | 11:44 |
V-H | https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2270 | 11:44 |
V-H | The package that caused the bug has been fixed and I upgraded to the package that's fixed but I still have this printer problem. | 11:45 |
V-H | I think this also has to do with authentification problem as described in the thread https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2270 | 11:46 |
V-H | But I have little idea how to fix it. | 11:46 |
V-H | maybe I should just post this on the forum on that thread? | 11:47 |
sixwheeledbeast | Also with IRC you may expect to hang around for a while until someone can help. I would say adding to the thread on the forum is a good idea. | 11:49 |
fishfears | why is a dsa key the signing key | 11:58 |
gnarface | V-H: if it's just a polkit problem you can probably add your printer as root, or maybe by connecting to localhost:631 with a browser | 12:05 |
gnarface | which wouldn't really be a fix but it might be a useful workaround | 12:05 |
V-H | I think I am gonna post this problem to the forum | 12:10 |
Digit | does nvidia-installer-cleanup normally act like it's hung? both through apt-get upgrade and dpkg -a now it seems stuck. i answered its run nvidia-xconfig --restore-original-backup question with no both times (previous just hit enter because it' default, entered N this time, same doing-nothing appearance.) | 14:51 |
Digit | dpkg --configure -a * | 14:52 |
Digit | ah, f9'd it in htop, n dpkg springs back into life. | 14:56 |
Digit | n_n cute. now that it's done, the "N" and other things i tried get command not found'd. | 14:57 |
cehteh | https://packages.devuan.org/pool/DEVUAN/main/d/debootstrap/debootstrap_1.0.75-1+devuan1_all.deb .. links on that page are broken | 17:21 |
cehteh | https://devuan.org/os/packages/debootstrap mean that page | 17:22 |
golinux | cehteh: I thought you understood that is an obsolete link. Please use pkginfo.devuan.org | 17:28 |
cehteh | yeah, i manage, just wanted to point out that those has to be either fixed or decommisioned | 17:29 |
cehteh | i mean leaving old/broken links isnt really nice, esp since google puts those results foremost | 17:29 |
golinux | cehteh: I don't know how you got to there because the root of that page says this: https://devuan.org/os/packages/ | 17:44 |
cehteh | golinux: google "devuan debootstrap" then you end up on defunct pages | 17:47 |
cehteh | "devuan <packagename>" already i tihnk (havent tried much) | 17:47 |
cehteh | blame google, but still those old pages could send a redirect or be taken off | 17:48 |
cehteh | i am just playing devils advocate here, telling what someone who is new stumbles upon | 17:49 |
buZz | who is the new stumbleupon? | 17:53 |
buZz | oh, sorry, misunderstood | 17:53 |
buZz | but i agree, pkginfo.devuan.org is 100% unfindable | 17:54 |
buZz | if you dont know the url already | 17:54 |
golinux | buZz: It is on many pages of devuan.org It doesn't blink in neon though. | 17:59 |
buZz | its unfindable if you google 'devuan package list' or something | 17:59 |
buZz | where on the frontpage of devuan.org is it? | 17:59 |
buZz | am i just blind? | 18:00 |
golinux | Here are three pages: https://devuan.org/get-devuan https://devuan.org/os/ https://devuan.org/os/etc/apt/sources.list | 18:14 |
golinux | Those are the logical places, no? | 18:15 |
cehteh | its not about you tellin me the pages here on irc, its about the impression someone who searches for info about devuan/packages (with google) gets | 18:16 |
cehteh | of course for someone involved in the project the pages and logical structure is clear and he knows where to look | 18:17 |
cehteh | but try to think you dont know anything about the project and try to gather some infos | 18:17 |
buZz | golinux: logical would be frontpage , i agree | 18:21 |
golinux | As you said, it needs a redirect. Will try to get that done in the next day or so | 18:21 |
cehteh | great | 18:21 |
golinux | buZz: Not really. All the download and install info in on the download page. | 18:22 |
buZz | what would you download from pkginfo? | 18:22 |
buZz | or install from it? | 18:22 |
buZz | nothing, right? its just reference | 18:23 |
Ryccardo | direct download links for packages, no? (though I personally wouldn´t search for them in the same section as full OS downloads) | 18:23 |
buZz | there are no download links in pkginfo | 18:24 |
Ryccardo | that´s the bigger problem, then :P | 18:27 |
buZz | Ryccardo: its not ment as a download page | 18:48 |
buZz | why would you need to download packages by hand anyway , you could just download them with apt | 18:48 |
buZz | imho -should- | 18:49 |
Ryccardo | to be able to download on that computer without wifi firmware :) | 18:52 |
Ryccardo | not that there isn´t an alternative, but why not | 18:52 |
* cehteh just downloaded the debootstap.dpkg and installed it on a debian based rescue system | 18:52 | |
cehteh | whats another way to install devuan to a remote server? | 18:54 |
Ryccardo | intel amt disk emulation? :P | 18:55 |
cehteh | lol | 18:55 |
cehteh | i was thinking about failing one disk on the raid, copy the installation media there and then install from that, but debootstrap sounds easier | 19:00 |
mbuf | What is the image I can use for Veyron/Rockchip Chromebook? I don't see it listed at https://files.roundr.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/embedded/ | 19:09 |
golinux | mbuf: You might want to ask on #devuan-arm | 19:12 |
mbuf | golinux, found it at https://files.roundr.devuan.org/devuan_jessie/embedded/ | 19:13 |
mbuf | golinux, thanks! | 19:13 |
golinux | There should be one for ASCII too | 19:14 |
m3lst4d | golinux, is there a great need for packagers? Is it basically like backporting, but just removing systemd? I've done quite a bit of backporting in the past, but I see you have your own method which doesn't seem to difficult to learn. Thanks! | 20:24 |
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