libera/#devuan/ Monday, 2018-10-15

furrywolfto be a thing, they first have to not suck.  :)00:03
_abc_fsmithred: you need the whole kernel tree to run config on, then you can build just the modules I think00:14
fsmithredI guess I'm thinking of modules you build with third-party code00:14
buZzfsmithred: like https://github.com/lwfinger/rtl8723bu ? :P00:15
buZzstill supports dkms ;)00:15
buZzbut also works without so w/e00:16
Centurion_Dananybody give a quick opinion on using gnome-keyring or something of similar ilk...  in jessie it made a mess of gpg key support...05:44
djphCenturion_Dan: I try to avoid it.11:22
Centurion_Dandjph: so do I but unlocking my ssh key 10 times when wanting to access a vm console in virt-manger is a bit tedious...11:58
KatolaZCenturion_Dan: ssh-add12:03
KatolaZ:)12:03
djphCenturion_Dan: ^12:07
djphssh-agent >>> gnome-keyring12:07
KatolaZnever used gnome-keyring, but ssh-agent is more than enough12:08
man_in_shackhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc8O6Sg-zzU12:32
slphil_n6I recently got Devuan running on my Samsung Chromebook ARM, using a 4.18.13 kernel. It's a cheap and useful device. Is there a place for me to document the process for anyone else?13:19
djphthere is the mailing list, or perhaps the gitlab pages ... there was a forum at one time, but it seems to have never really taken off -- mailing list is considerably more active.13:21
Centurion_Danslphil_n6: dev1galaxy.org13:33
fsmithredCenturion_Dan, someone with ryzen issues - maybe you can help? https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=241813:34
fsmithreddjph, there is an active (and official) forum ^^^13:35
djphyay13:53
DizietHi folks.  pm215 and I have been looking at improving the situation with non-systemd in Debian buster.14:25
DizietCurrently it's in poor shape for desktop stuff.  We've been looking at using elogind and have been making some progress, based on the elogind package from devuan.14:25
DizietWe don't have something tidy or even fully working yet but ISTM that it would be good to chat about how to organise things so that we (Devuan on the one hand; and Debian non-systemd folks on the other) have the best cooperation.14:26
DizietRight now we have been treating the elogind package from devuan (234.4-1+devuan1.1) as an upstream.14:28
fsmithredDiziet, I see 234.4-1+devuan1.4 in experimental and newer version, 234.4-2 in ascii.14:39
DizietI think we just haven't rebased since what I picked up a week or two ago.14:40
* Diziet does git fetch to see whats new14:40
fsmithredyou probably want to talk to the maintainer, amesser (or close to that name)14:40
fsmithredsome stuff is out of order in the repos, because we were scrambling to get ascii out14:41
fsmithredand bypassed the normal exp->unstable->testing route14:41
DizietOh, I hadn't spotted the experimental branch.  I think I am being confused by the git layout, but I have found the +devuan1.4 tag.14:42
fsmithredI'm using elogind in the latest refracta xfce release14:42
fsmithredah, ok14:42
fsmithredcheck ascii branch14:42
DizietI think we probably want 3eb67a27103b4c4e534c467519a243bcee64b5e2 Disable automatic user process killing by default14:44
fsmithredif that means what I think it means, then yeah, you probably do14:44
DizietRight now our most obvious bug is that in our wip configuration with lightdm, the shutdown/reboot options are greyed out.14:45
pm215plus gdm doesn't work at all...14:45
fsmithredyeah, in refracta I dropped lightdm and replaced it with lxdm14:45
Dizietfsmithred: Should we be talking to Andreas Messer by email do you reckon ?14:46
fsmithredpower buttons work, language switcher works14:46
fsmithredyeah, or post on devuan-dev mailing list14:46
fsmithredmight get more people involved with the latter14:46
DizietAnd do you think it is sensible for us to try to treat devuan as upstream for elogind ?  It looks like it probably is.14:47
MinceRelogind :(14:47
fsmithredafaik, we're planning on keeping it14:47
DizietMinceR: apologies if this is reopening some flamewar, but ... what would your preferred approach be ?14:49
MinceRdunno14:49
MinceRpersonally i just use startx14:49
MinceRand look at the developments in despair14:49
MinceRi suppose consolekit is not an option anymore14:49
fsmithredsee ascii release notes section on session management and policykit backends: https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/Release_notes.txt14:49
fsmithredand yeah, the desktop landscape is rough in non-systemd-land these days14:50
MinceRit's rough in systemd-land as well14:50
fsmithredMinceR, consolekit is still default with most of the dekstops14:51
MinceRbecause of systemd14:51
fsmithredI hear mixed reports about that - some don't notice it because everything works, and some can't proceed because something got screwed up14:51
MinceReventually they'll notice14:52
MinceRjust as they noticed it in windows14:52
fsmithredyup14:52
MinceRGNU/Linux will probably be gone by then, though14:52
fsmithredI got the five-minute boot wait a few times and abandoned it14:52
pm215startx needs a logind in debina buster, incidentally -- otherwise it doesn't get read access to the /dev/input/* for the mouse (there are ways to configure X or your device perms to avoid that, of course)14:53
* man_in_shack replaces MinceR's kernel with hurd14:54
MinceRew14:54
MinceRhurd is dead14:54
man_in_shackwell you seem to enjoy living in a fantasy world14:54
DizietMinceR: I deprecate all statements of the form "foo is dead" (unless you're the maintainer of foo who is killing it, I guess)14:54
man_in_shack<MinceR> GNU/Linux will probably be gone by then, though14:54
fsmithredpm215, alternative is xserver-xorg-legacy14:54
man_in_shackgonna be replaced by sco xenix i guess14:54
fsmithredand run X as root14:55
fsmithredworks in beowulf (buster)14:55
MinceRmore likely to be replaced by BSD-s14:55
man_in_shackwell fine14:55
Diziet"foo is dead" is the pattern everyone uses to get people to use their own thing, or for dropping foo compatibility, or whatever.14:55
filipdevuan_hey is intel management engine a real issue?? or its just made up by FSF??14:55
man_in_shackinstall sco xenix userland with a netbsd kernel then14:55
MinceRok, then, i'll use a different pattern, to make it easier to understand14:55
MinceRhttps://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/open_issues/systemd.html14:56
MinceRalso note that prior to this step, GNU/HURD used to be a multiserver microkernel system14:56
slphil_n6Systemd truly tries to worm its way into everything14:59
MinceRyet there's no shortage of defenders for it15:00
MinceRi ran into them today as well15:00
filipdevuan_hey can u see me posting??15:00
sixwheeledbeastit is an issue yes15:01
man_in_shackthere are exactly 0 people in here who like systemd, MinceR15:02
man_in_shackwhat's your point?15:02
MinceRnot here15:02
man_in_shackso?15:02
man_in_shackyou're the one who brought it up15:02
filipdevuan_hey is intel management engine a real issue? or its just made up by FSF???15:03
MinceRit's a real issue15:03
MinceRand i'm surprised that red hat/nsa hasn't paid them enough to silence them about it15:04
man_in_shackit's got an entire minix kernel in it15:04
filipdevuan_so i should feel quilty that i spend like 500 dollars for useless acer laptop with optimus nvidia graphics card instead of buying fsf endorsed laptop ;/15:04
filipdevuan_spent*15:05
man_in_shackobviously15:06
filipdevuan_im going on devianfork channel, have a nice day :)15:06
man_in_shackhttps://www.quiltingcompany.com/store/quilty-january-february-2018-digital-edition  << feel VERY quilty15:07
man_in_shackfilipdevuan_: honestly the worst thing about your choice of laptop is the acer part15:07
filipdevuan_yeh. it's what happens when you go to supermarket and know nthing about laptops and they advice you to buy acer laptop ;/15:08
man_in_shackto paraphrase summer from rick & morty: nvidia has binary blob drivers and intel runs a secret kernel in their cpu. is there a tech company that ISN'T evil?15:08
man_in_shackasus is about the only laptop brand i trust15:09
man_in_shacktoshiba, acer, hp, msi, all junk15:10
filipdevuan_i paid like 600 pounds for this laptop just because of 1tb hdd and some 940mx geforce i5 i7 and now i cant sell it for more than 150 pounds15:10
filipdevuan_to buy something different15:10
man_in_shacksamsung were nice back when chromebooks were a thing15:10
filipdevuan_whats so different in asus that is different in hp or acer??15:11
man_in_shackbuild quality15:13
man_in_shackand cooling15:13
man_in_shackacers snap in half if you look at them the wrong way15:14
man_in_shackhps just bend when you type on them15:14
filipdevuan_oh yeah acer cooling sucks :P. however i dont think asus would be any different if it still has intel management engine15:14
man_in_shackfilipdevuan_: it's more about the cooling hardware design15:14
man_in_shackheatpipe layout, fans15:14
man_in_shackasus knows more about that shit15:14
man_in_shackoh, and people keep telling me lenovo are fine but i never believe them15:15
man_in_shackgive me a modern system retrofitted into a proper ibm thinkpad case any day15:15
man_in_shackjust without the goddamn mouse nipple15:15
MinceRdHells break themselves apart from the inside15:15
MinceRout of lenovo, only thinkpads are fine15:16
filipdevuan_well im sad because i spent too much money for this laptop i wanted it to play some modern games but in the meantime i stopped using windows 10 and stopped playing modern games as well and i feel like my laptop is just junk now ;/15:16
man_in_shacki know them feels15:16
MinceRIT is increasingly garbage15:17
MinceReverything is going to hell15:17
man_in_shackturn it into a htpc?15:17
djphMinceR: indeed15:17
filipdevuan_are there any models of laptops you would recommend just for devuan that would be quite safe too??15:18
man_in_shackshort answer is they all have the same stuff on the inside these days15:19
filipdevuan_even all asus laptops have intel management engine installed??15:19
man_in_shackyah, it's unavoidable15:19
man_in_shackonly way out of it is to use an amd cpu15:19
man_in_shackwhich had an embedded cortex a7 in it instead15:20
man_in_shack(:15:20
filipdevuan_but iv read that amd has management engine as well but just under different name15:20
man_in_shackyup15:20
man_in_shackthey do15:20
man_in_shackand it hasn't been leaked like the intel one was15:20
man_in_shackbasically it's a sideeffect of microsoft's bullshit "secure boot" uefi shit15:20
filipdevuan_i basically feel like selling this acer for i dont know how much to buy something cheaper. im not happy with the acer.15:21
filipdevuan_and i dont really like intel as well...15:21
man_in_shackno one likes intel15:21
filipdevuan_id get something without windows 10 preinstalled15:21
filipdevuan_i wonder if somebody would paid me 300 dollars for this laptop ;/15:21
man_in_shackdonate it to a good cause15:22
man_in_shackpost it to computerbank.org.au :P15:22
filipdevuan_yeah but then im gonan be without a laptop i havent got any particular income... i wanna use devuan but my laptop is useless because iv read its very insecure, its acer, it has nvidia geforce 940mx that i dont need on devuan, im fed up with non free stuff and setting bumblebee up for optimus15:22
man_in_shackfilipdevuan_: it's no more insecure than any other laptop15:23
filipdevuan_so there arent any choices in terms of security apart from FSF endorsed laptops??15:23
MinceRthe best i can recommend is thinkpad15:24
man_in_shacki mean you can read all this scary stuff about spectre and meltdown bugs affecting fuckloads of cpus from amd, intel and arm15:24
man_in_shackbut they still require root access software to initiate them15:24
man_in_shackso don't be an idiot with your software and your hardware will remain safe15:24
filipdevuan_oh okay so its not like i have IEM and devuan and my laptop is insecure like i mean very insecure?? is IEM just about remote access or its about mining data about users as well??15:25
filipdevuan_IME*15:26
man_in_shackspectre and meltdown were proofs of concepts15:26
MinceRwith IME, you're insecure if you use the ethernet port on a public network15:26
MinceRsince it will just listen to commands from the network, regardless of what you do15:26
man_in_shacki'm pretty sure they're actually very difficult to exploit in any usable way15:27
man_in_shack^15:27
filipdevuan_so do you think i should sell this acer for cheaper than i bought and buy something more specific or remain there with acer15:28
filipdevuan_cuz i feel like my laptop is pointless now to have cuz i dont use windows 10 i dont play modern games nor i need this geforce 940mx15:29
man_in_shackwell unless it's cooking your desk/lap when you turn it on, you can still do things with it15:29
man_in_shackdefine "modern games"?15:29
man_in_shackthere's a whole bunch of games even on steam that'd work find on a 940mx on a linux system15:30
MinceRmodern, like systemd! :>15:30
filipdevuan_uhh this is the thing i dont like steam as well i dont trust them i think theyre not less evil than google and microsoft15:30
man_in_shackhehe fair enough15:31
filipdevuan_but anyways thanks for advice :)15:31
filipdevuan_uhh this 940mx is ok for devuan too but bumblebee on devuan is quite weird to set up15:31
man_in_shackso best advice for something to do with it would be htpc15:31
filipdevuan_okay htpc is home theather pc??15:32
man_in_shackchuck kodi on it, put a bunch of movies on that 1TB hdd15:32
man_in_shackplug it into your 85" tv15:32
filipdevuan_uh its ok my mate has lots of dvd movies and bluerays and 5.1 home theatre hehe :P cant get any better is kodi free software btw15:33
man_in_shackit's in debian main repo i think15:33
filipdevuan_oh okay i can see its open source, okay cheers then15:33
man_in_shackyah15:34
man_in_shacki got it running on my rasbpi15:34
man_in_shackwhich is still running systemd-infected debian15:34
telst4rdevuan works on raspi 1 at least :)15:34
man_in_shackbut it's also pulled in deb-multimedia.org repo so i dunno (:15:34
man_in_shackyah15:35
man_in_shackthis is rasbpi v315:35
man_in_shackmy rasbpi v2 to destroyed by floofkitty pissing on it15:35
man_in_shack*got destroyed15:35
telst4raren't there rpi 3 images too?15:35
filipdevuan_yeah i know gnu linux users are hyped about steam and games but i dont really like steam :(15:36
filipdevuan_i think they spy on you15:36
MinceRi don't like steam either, as it's a DRM platform15:36
man_in_shackthey do to a certain extent15:36
man_in_shack^15:36
MinceRand the best games i've ever played are free software, at least for the code15:36
man_in_shackthey certainly keep close track on what games you play, when, and use that for direct marketing15:36
man_in_shackwhich so far, they've got right like ONCE for me in the 2-3 years i've been using it15:37
man_in_shackMinceR: apt install crack-attack15:37
filipdevuan_this is what steam does https://voat.co/v/technology/247554315:37
man_in_shackso-called because it's as addictive as crack cocaine15:37
MinceRi was thinking more of xonotic and various id game engine source ports15:37
man_in_shack"Steam could be monitoring any files across the entirety of users hard drives"  umm15:38
man_in_shacki'm not interested in "could"15:38
MinceR:>15:38
man_in_shack"Visitors need only view your profile page"  << which can be locked down15:39
telst4rreplace it with 'will'15:39
man_in_shackalthough admitedly, not as much as i like15:39
man_in_shacktelst4r: will, one day, maybe, but currently doesn't15:39
telst4r:)15:40
man_in_shack"steampowered also employs common www.google-analytics.com as well as steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net and steamcommunity-a.akamaihd.net" very true15:40
man_in_shackand the fucking in-client browser is a goddamn monstrosity15:40
man_in_shack"Valve’s Steam phone app has been found to utilize four trackers and at least two sensitive application permissions" << and they FORCED you to use it if you wanted to do anything on the community market15:41
man_in_shacki'm not sure if that policy has changed or my profile has changed, but i can now sell random shit i get without needing to confirm on my phone15:41
man_in_shack"Support for payments of Steam software with Bitcoin was dropped, forcing users to now provide their address in order to make purchases."  << that's not actually a bad thing in and of itself15:42
man_in_shackevery other goddamn company in the world asks for a billing address for online transactions15:42
man_in_shackeven going to a brick-and-mortar store, your bank still has your address15:42
MinceRi could pay with cash in a brick-and-mortar store15:43
man_in_shack"Steam users have been deceived into opening malacious screenshots containing executable SCR files which target the Steam client"  <<< HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH IDIOTS15:43
man_in_shackMinceR: which is LESS secure these days than using a visa15:44
man_in_shackmastercard can go fuck themselves15:44
man_in_shackbut visa actuall has decent fraud prevention stuff15:44
MinceRwhat's the difference between mastercard and visa?15:44
man_in_shack"Valve can, and has in the past, removed games from Steam as well as retroactively revoked them from user’s libraries."  << i still have a number of titles that no longer have store pages. it's fun :P15:45
man_in_shackMinceR: mastercard are assholes if shit happens to your card15:45
man_in_shackvisa, less so15:45
MinceRhow less so?15:45
man_in_shacki've had my details stolen a few times. bank be like "sure, here's your money back. we'll send this shit to visa"15:46
man_in_shackthe visa fraud insurance deals banks have protect them (and bank customers) very well15:47
man_in_shacki don't know the details, but i've heard horror stories from mastercard holders about chasing up fraud on their cards15:47
man_in_shackand never heard one from visa15:47
man_in_shack"Steam chat operates a topic & language filter which cannot be deactivated and whose arbitrary target terms are not disclosed"  << well that's your stupid fault for using fucking steam chat15:48
MinceRic15:48
MinceRone should not rely on a corporation for a platform15:49
man_in_shack"Steam suppresses reviews from users who did not purchase directly through Steam under the guise of improving review scoring"  << that's actually valid. if you didn't get your product through steam, then your review might not reflect the product steam is selling15:49
man_in_shackpartly because publishers are assholes15:49
man_in_shackpartly because steam worms its way into games with acheivements and shit15:49
man_in_shack"Under threat of permanently deactivating user accounts without refund, Steam forces new subscriber agreement upon gamers."  << what would the alternative be? it's a content distribution service15:50
man_in_shack"Steam prevents the purchase of certain software from within restricted regions." << not actually steam's fault. they're actually pretty good on this point. it's just they have to deal with every country's different classifications boards15:52
man_in_shack"Steam “Offline Mode” first requires authentication and an internet connection in order to function. Even still, Offline Mode has proven less than reliable."  << very true. "offline mode" is a complete lie15:53
MinceRwell, it would be nice if games "purchased" via steam would actually be "purchased" and not just "subscribed" for an unspecified amount of time15:56
man_in_shackyes15:56
* man_in_shack throws ea's sim city remake nightmare at MinceR15:56
man_in_shackcompanies are afraid of customers owning products15:57
* MinceR parries it with a BFS15:57
man_in_shackin fact, they always have15:57
MinceRcustomers can't own software products, only a license to them15:57
man_in_shack"YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO LOOK AT HOW THIS SOFTWARE WORKS" has been in every eula since the invention of closed-source15:57
MinceRyet another reason to stick to free software games15:57
* man_in_shack sells MinceR a brand new fresh copy of tuxracer15:58
* telst4r changes the way man_in_shack's chess engine predicts16:00
man_in_shackpawn to king 416:01
MinceRthermonuclear strike to d416:02
telst4rGNU to A616:02
man_in_shackTHE ANGEL OF DEATH to e8 CHECKMATE16:08
telst4rfffffuuuuuu---!16:15
* booyah waves at telst4r16:37
booyahall hail Bitcoin16:37
telst4rsuch booyah16:49
telst4r:)16:49
nemohttps://popcon.debian.org/stat/vendors.png  devuan seems to drop off as "wazo" climbs18:25
nemoare they both non-systemd?18:25
nemostrange. how the heck is wazo climbing so fast. it seems so specific18:26
nemomaybe opts in to popcon by default18:26
nemohttps://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Census/Wazo  anyway. is systemd. so drop in devuan is perhaps simply due to it being a smaller percentage of the pie as something grows rapidly18:27
cehtehlol about doing that on a logarithmic scale :)18:33
RyushinAre there any numbers regarding how many Devuan users there are?  Just hoping the Devuan stays viable as I rely on it.18:34
nemoRyushin: funny that's exactly why I was looking at popcon18:35
nemowell, also that and trying to figure out how many debian hedgewars users there were since Wuzzy saw fit to remove our local physfs copy fallback *AND* require physfs318:35
nemodebian stable that is18:35
nemobut at same time was like. man it sure would be nice if devuan was popular enough to ensure influence on upstream debian/kernel decisions18:35
Ryushinnemo: I agree on all of those counts.18:38
RyushinSomeone posted that the wind is coming out of the sails on Devuan.  http://maemo.cloud-7.de/irclogs/freenode/_devuan-dev/_devuan-dev.2018-09-05.log.html18:40
RyushinDevuan has accomplished so much, it is staggering.18:41
cehtehthe best thing what could happen would be when devuan becomes obsoltete .. by a) technically: debian supports multiple init systems again and b) socially: people find a friendly/peaceful solution to end these rage and differences18:43
cehtehor maybe eventually 'systemd' just works .. i mean really works in a way that everyone is happy, no bugs and no fuckups, no glitches18:44
MinceRthe current design and attitude is highly unlikely to lead to such a conclusion18:45
Diziet... ported to bsd.18:45
DizietWill be a few years.18:45
cehtehyeah, i think all about that, very unlikely18:45
cehtehbut that would be the best outcome18:45
DizietI think (a) is reachable.  I'm running sysvinit on my laptop with Debian stretch.  buster definitely needs fixing.18:45
DizietI'm hoping Debian can borrow some of Devuan's answers there.18:46
cehtehi am running some debian with systemd .. where it works and doesnt slap me in the face its ok18:46
cehteh*but* often enough there are some subtle bugs which led me here18:46
_abc_Hi. I tried to install kernel-package to rebuild a kernel the debian way on ascii and it tried to pull in half the world, among others tex, texinfo and other monsters. Is there really no sanity left in debian? Does devuan intend to provide any simplified debian alternatives for key things like kernel rebuilds and so on? fsmithred ?18:47
cehtehkernel-package is obsolete, modern kernel makefiles have some debian targets try make bindeb-pkg or make deb-pkg18:48
cehtehkernel-package wants to build the documentation packages as well, which needs a shitload of tex infrastructure18:51
fsmithredalso, try installing with --no-install-recommends18:52
fsmithredI'm not aware of any discussions of changing kernels or kernel build procedures18:52
_abc_Okay. I was sure there are workarounds.18:53
_abc_I will need TeX in the future but not right now.18:53
cehtehi usually do the bindeb-pkg thing18:53
_abc_Ok. Right now I am building just modules using the running system's config.18:55
_abc_This is my real goal.18:55
fsmithredok, this may sound like a stupid question, but how do I install opengl?18:55
fsmithredsomeone mentioned tux-racer, and I remembered planet penguin racer, which is no longer in the repo.18:56
fsmithredso I'm trying to compile it from source, and it's complaining that it can't find opengl18:56
fsmithredI don't know which package to install - it's not obvious from the names18:56
cehtehyou need the proper graphics drivers *AND* the respective -dev packages installed when compiling from source18:56
cehtehthat are tons of libs18:57
cehtehmostly mesa and its dependencies18:57
fsmithredyeah, I have mesa and mesa-dev stuff installed already18:57
cehtehand i recommend the backports stuff, lots of bugs fixed18:57
_abc_trying to install qemu with aptitude is terrible. Is there a way to tell aptitude to do the equivalent of --no-install-recommends ?18:57
fsmithredok, but I'm trying to compile something from 200518:57
cehtehthen check the build/configure log what it exactl tests for18:57
fsmithred_abc_, yes: -R18:58
_abc_fsmithred: -R where? aptitude cli?18:58
fsmithredaptitude -R install stuff18:58
debdog_abc_: you can turn that off permanently inside aptitude's ncurses ui18:58
_abc_I'm using the curses ui18:58
_abc_Oh, where?18:58
debdog_abc_: Options -> Prefernces18:59
_abc_The option was off I think.18:59
_abc_Hm trying again.18:59
_abc_This is beyond stupid. qemu-system claims it depends on qemu-system-sparc etc19:02
fsmithredthat must be a metapackage19:03
_abc_What a clusterf*. I don't believe it. There is no way to force partial package install. I've run qemu for like 20 years I think, sometimes compiled from source.19:04
fsmithredI have 5 qemu packages installed19:04
_abc_qemu depends on qemu-system and qemu-system depends on ALL systems. sparc, ppc all19:04
_abc_fsmithred: manually? Cli?19:04
fsmithredyes19:04
fsmithredI didn't install any graphical front-end for it. I just use a script I wrote, but all I use it for is to boot live-isos19:05
_abc_Of course.19:06
fsmithredanyway: qemu-system-common qemu-system-x86 qemu-kvm qemu-utils ipxe-qemu19:06
fsmithredand ipxe-qemu (not sure how that one got in)19:06
_abc_It wants to install all of the previous ones using cli and --no-install-recommends too19:07
_abc_Exact same thing19:07
_abc_Are these dependencies coming from upstream?19:07
fsmithredyes19:07
fsmithredwell, upstream at least as far as debian19:07
fsmithredI don't know beyond that19:08
_abc_reading man apt-get install says there is no direct way to force installation of the selected package only19:09
_abc_Looks like I need to fetch the package and manually install it with deb19:09
_abc_Unbelievable.19:09
fsmithreddownload package and install with dpkg -i19:10
nemo_abc_: well you already fetched it19:10
fsmithredbut if deps are missing, it may not work19:10
nemo_abc_: just force install from your cache folder ☺19:10
nemothat's what I did last time I ran into a weird set of deps on debian19:10
nemoand maybe back it up in /root or something for future fixing19:10
fsmithred_abc_, are you in ascii? I just tried, and I can install those packages without other qemu stuff. Doesn't matter if I exclude recommends - same packages either way.19:13
_abc_I am in ascii yes. But my lists file probably looks different to yours19:14
fsmithredoops, I'm using pkgmaster.devuan.org. Should have changed that to deb.devuan.org19:15
_abc_What's the bios package name again?19:15
_abc_For qemu19:16
fsmithredoh, gimme a minute19:16
fsmithredyou mean for uefi?19:16
fsmithredovmf19:16
_abc_No, I don't need uefi yet19:17
_abc_ipxi ? Something19:17
_abc_I don't need that either in fact.19:17
_abc_There's only one qemu-system-arm ? Others have 2, one for 32 one for 64?19:18
_abc_qemu-system-i386 has no manpage19:19
_abc_What the19:19
fsmithredI don't know. All I have is what I listed.19:20
fsmithredand the ipxe package came automatically with the others19:20
fsmithredqemu-system-x86 handles both 32 and 64. The old amd64 package is just a virtual package now.19:20
fsmithredProbably same for arm19:21
fsmithredthe i386 is also a virtual package19:21
_abc_the bios is seabios19:22
_abc_In my case it broke subsequent runs of aptitude/apt-get had to do apt --fix-broken install and it installed all the deps as they were in the unwanted list19:23
_abc_fsmithred: can we discuss why in your case it did not do this mess?19:24
_abc_I have 28 (!) qemu-system-xxx on the machine now. But they work.19:25
_abc_What the blazes is going on? fsmithred do you have an explanation?19:25
fsmithredno, I don't19:26
_abc_specifically there is qemu-system-i386 qemu-system-x86_6419:26
_abc_re: "the same one runs both"19:26
_abc_Looking at startup scripts and stuff a bit19:26
fsmithredoh, I can explain why I got no difference with or without recommends, but that doesn't answer the real question19:26
fsmithredthose are fake packages19:26
_abc_They are not fake, each is a distinct binary. I expected a startup script but no19:27
_abc_The one above is 9MB19:27
pm215qemu-system-i386 is the 32-bit cpu one, qemu-system-x86_64 is 64-bit19:27
fsmithredyes, they are virtual packages: distinct binaries that don't contain anything other than a dependency19:27
_abc_1019:27
_abc_But is it normal to get 28 binaries installed just to run ONE of them?19:27
pm215qemu-system-foo should be in the qemu-system-foo package, which you should in general not have to install unless you care about architecture foo19:28
fsmithredno, it's not normal.19:28
fsmithredPackage: qemu-system-x86-6419:28
fsmithredState: not a real package19:28
fsmithredProvided by: qemu-system-x86 (1:2.8+dfsg-6+deb9u4)19:28
_abc_Maybe I should NOT have installed qemu itself? Only the system package for what I need?19:29
fsmithredCORRECT19:29
_abc_There is no standalone binaru called qemu at all anywhere.19:29
pm215x86-64 and i386 are a slightly special case as they share a package19:29
fsmithredit's a metapackage19:29
_abc_Ah I am getting it now. Wow.19:29
pm215yes, there's no 'qemu' binary, because each target arch has its own executable19:29
fsmithredthat means it's just there to pull in a bunch of real packages19:29
_abc_I get it now.19:29
_abc_I think.19:29
fsmithredyes, I think so too19:29
_abc_Ok, let's reduce the damage a bit. Roll back install qemu, install just the systems I need.19:30
fsmithredremove qemu and just install19:30
fsmithredyup19:30
pm215the 'qemu' metapackage is for if you want everything that the upstream gives you for a full-fat configure & build19:30
_abc_apt-get purge quemu did NOT remove the things it pulled in19:32
fsmithredright19:33
fsmithredapt-get doesn't remove the other packages automaticall. aptitude does. not sure about apt.19:33
fsmithreddo apt-get autoremove19:33
pm215is this different since stretch? in stretch the qemu pkg Depends on qemu-system which Depends on qemu-system-arm &c, so removing qemu should prompt to remove the other stuff19:34
KatolaZpm215: it would be the other way round...19:35
KatolaZif A Depends on B and you remove A you don't get B removed19:35
pm215doh, yes19:35
KatolaZif you remove B, A gets removed19:35
KatolaZit has always been like that in Debian-based distros19:35
KatolaZ:)19:36
_abc_what is vde2?19:36
pm215"apt show vde2" should answer that question...19:37
_abc_I purged the offending packages, the package manager claims they are gone, the files are still there.19:38
_abc_What the blazes19:38
_abc_dlocate qemu-system-misc for example comes up empty, but I can see the files in /usr/bin/qemu-system-cris19:39
_abc_which is one of the system images installed by -misc19:39
_abc_Something is very broken19:39
pm215try dpkg -S qemu-system-cris19:39
KatolaZagain, _abc_19:40
KatolaZqemu-system-misc is a meta-package19:40
KatolaZif you remove it, you won't remove all the packages it depends on...19:40
KatolaZ(and, if you just "remove" without "purge", config file will remain there)19:41
_abc_I used purge and the app is there. Probably only removed configs.19:41
_abc_purge alone without remove19:42
pm215also, dlocate uses a cached set of data which is only updated overnight, so won't reflect package nistalls/uninstalls you just did five minutes ago19:42
_abc_I know, I bumped dlocate19:42
pm215use dpkg -S the-binary-you-still-have-installed to find which package it's in19:42
pm215then uninstall that...19:43
_abc_I use dlocate for that.19:44
_abc_That's not the problem. apt-get remove $pkg then apt-get purge $pkg ; second one claims package is no longer installed.19:45
pm215KatolaZ: qemu-system-misc isn't a metapackage, it's the one with qemu-system-cris/alpha/other minor archs in it19:45
_abc_I tried in the reverse order, purge 1st, then the package is not removed for some reason.19:45
_abc_I know what it is.19:45
_abc_I used it as a test for the others19:46
_abc_and the 64 bit arm is aarch64 ok19:46
pm215purge is supposed to be a superset of remove (right the way through down to how dpkg works) so if that is not the way it's behaving then something is very weird19:46
_abc_Right, I won. They are gone. I need to practice much more with debian package tool herding. I'm used to slackware more than anything. I pulled an etch based system using slack packages installed manually for like 10 years.19:47
_abc_pm215: yes, it was very weird19:47
_abc_Also all qemu manpages are installed, even those for the systems which were removed.19:49
_abc_I have started not liking the way things work. Is there a way to create "tagfiles" for packages for oneself, to override the mess coming from upstream?19:50
KatolaZ_abc_: what is your problem, exactly?19:51
_abc_I would like more control over dependencies. And clearer labelling of virtual packages.20:05
Centurion_Daninfobot+21:00
Centurion_Danfsmithred: re the ryzen issue... he has to update the bios... many bugs in ryzen early firmware/microcode...21:01
buZzCenturion_Dan: cant you update microcode from OS?21:04
buZzyou can on intel, not on AMD?21:04
Leanderbios fixes are more than just CPU microcode, there's also improved RAM support and other things that can't be changed after booting21:24
buZzyeah totally, i ment the cpu microcode specifically21:35
Centurion_DanbuZz: yup, the package is amd64-microcode21:37
buZzah, alright21:37
Centurion_Danbut in this case I found when I built a ryzen system with an asrock board that a firmware update was indeed required to avoid that die while sleeping bug....   and the system has been running 9 months with no issues...21:39
Centurion_Dans/die while sleeping bug/die while idle bug/21:41
buZzcould have been a regulator or something21:41
buZztoo low/high voltage for the cpu21:41
Centurion_DanI think from what I read back then it's most likely a too low voltage at min clockspeed or clockspeed transition...21:42
Centurion_Daninfobot22:00
_abc_How much disk does one need to build a linux kernel in the 4.9 series ? I've used up like 3GB and it's not ending22:12
buZzlets see22:13
buZzbuzz@h81m:~/code/linux-4.17.2$ make defconfig ; time make -j422:13
buZzi assume newer is fine for your test? :P22:13
_abc_yes22:14
buZzshould be ~20 mins22:14
buZzi'll post it here22:14
_abc_heh22:15
_abc_make modules is actually more interesting since that's what I did22:15
_abc_I wonder if I can force build just one module. Trying.22:15
_abc_The answer seems to be no22:16
buZzyou'd need to build most of kernel to be able to build modules , afaik22:17
_abc_you can build just modules.22:17
buZzeither way, you asked about building kernel22:17
buZzso thats the info you get22:17
buZzi can do make modules afterwards22:17
_abc_yeah, the total size would be nice to know22:17
buZzoh, already done22:18
buZzreal    4m12.417s22:18
buZz1.3GB now22:18
buZzbuzz@h81m:~/code/linux-4.17.2$ time make modules; du -sh .22:18
buZzafter make modules, its still 1.3GB22:18
_abc_that is amazing22:19
buZzi used defconfig though22:19
_abc_I used oldconfig with the conf of the running system.22:19
_abc_I have 4GB free after make config then it runs out of space upon make modules22:19
_abc_What the hell.22:19
_abc_linux does not love me today22:20
fsmithredI deleted an old kernel source tree today and freed up 8.6GB22:20
_abc_fsmithred: ah.22:21
_abc_That may be it, then. Source uncompressed is not that big.22:28
_abc_I tried to cheat, enable only the module I want in a custom config. make oldconfig breaks on that, it deletes whole sections of the config22:29
_abc_make menuconfig complains about no curses, but I have ncurses-bin installed.22:35
_abc_Ah I need the -dev package too22:36
_abc_I edited .config with regexp in vim, was too entusiastic in removing =m's. Then edited it with make menuconfig (tedious), pared it down to 27 modules, do not expect the kernel to work like this! After that building ONE module builds all of them, and it does so in 10 seconds.23:08
_abc_So success. I can build a single module stand alone without the whole kernel.23:09
_abc_Trying it out.23:09
_abc_Retracting what I said. The module is built but not usable, wrong format. Needs more work.23:10
_abc_Bye for now23:10
buZzfarewell23:19
Digitwrestling my nvidia/X/slim back after they wouldnt start after a powercut.  EE no screens, n so on.  after it asks if i want to attempt restoration of the original X config, no matter if i say yes or no, it seems to hang.  got a progress bar this time using apt rather than apt-get, n it's still 0%.  something else i should do?  uninstall first maybe?23:29
Digitsearching for nvidia in htop, and there's a lot of them, seemingly doing nothing23:34
man_in_shackforce an fsck or 523:41
buZzwhich nvidia driver do you run?23:44
buZzi've never seen apt getting stuck at 0%23:45
buZzusually apt upgrade breaks my nvidia driver here :P so i tend to cherry pick stuff to upgrade to avoid touching nvidia driver23:46
buZzthen just apt install -t ascii-backports the right nvidia debs23:46
buZzwish i understood how to force apt upgrade to not upgrade -backports packages with ascii packages23:46
Digit396.24, according to nvidia-installer --version (if that gets me the right version number).23:51
Digitcurrent plan... procrastinate for a bit, then cancl it if still at 0%, then uninstall all the things, then reinstall following the instrutions found online, hoping they're correct.23:52
gnarfaceif apt is hanging at 0% i would expect that to be a network problem23:53
mtnmani mean helo23:53

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