esr | The promised rant: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=13144#p13144 | 02:04 |
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Criggie | esr: fair points all. To be honest my home core server is still debian, installed in ~2001 and dist-upgraded all the way. All hardware has rolled over, but the install still has its roots back then. | 02:40 |
Criggie | Changing distro is a lot of work. | 02:45 |
redrick | esr: I may be wrong, but suspect that the best way of bringing your points most fruitfully to the attention of people doing the real work is on the main project mailing list. I will shoulder the task of doing so. | 02:49 |
redrick | Fortunately, seems to me some of your suggestions would reduce developer burden in the long term. | 02:50 |
redrick | Project devs are, in my experience, talented, bright, and of sound judgement. But predictably overtasked. | 02:52 |
Criggie | And skilled people tend to have forgotten the barriers to entry others might run into. I remmeber spending a long time getting a FDD to work in linux, when I was a newb. | 02:54 |
gnarface | ok i'll come right out and say it | 02:59 |
gnarface | that esr is an imposter and it's gonna take a lot more than this sophomoric diatribe to convince me otherwise | 03:00 |
gnarface | everything should be like the ubuntu live cd? do you even know what that would do to dsl users? | 03:00 |
gnarface | please. | 03:00 |
gnarface | that's just as blindly elitist as the audacity of insisting people read the release notes | 03:01 |
gnarface | and the choice debian made way back then about non-free content is bounded in solid legal footing, not some childish idealogical tantrum he makes it out to be | 03:02 |
gnarface | please, don't let this guy imply he's Eric S. Raymond or that anything he says deserves the level of credibility due to that name | 03:03 |
gnarface | i think the real ESR would have enough experience with linux distros to have noticed quality control on Ubuntu and Mint is garbage. | 03:05 |
gnarface | and certainly wouldn't pick either of those distros as the cudgel to use in this debate | 03:05 |
gnarface | (i think the real ESR would also have been aware of which of his hardware purchases required non-free firmware blobs and for what - if i was smart enough to research that ahead of time, the real ESR would have been too) | 03:10 |
gnarface | this smacks a lot of someone trying to impersonate a person of note in order to try to influence a project to either 1) solve one of his work problems or 2) trip and fall flat on it's face | 03:11 |
gnarface | (or maybe both at once!) | 03:11 |
phogg | gnarface: how much do you trust freenode nickserv authentication? | 03:18 |
gnarface | phogg: not enough to swallow that load of crap, if that's what you're asking | 03:21 |
phogg | I think it's the most salient real/fake question. | 03:21 |
esr | redrick: Thanks. | 03:36 |
esr | gnarface: You are being silly, but I'll play. How do you suggest I authenticare myself? | 03:37 |
gnarface | esr: i'm not playing, and frankly it's not my approval that you need. | 03:38 |
esr | If you sent email to my known publ c email and got a confirming reply, would that do? | 03:38 |
esr | I didn't say you wwre playing. I said you were being silly. | 03:39 |
gnarface | you came in here announcing that you were going to impress us with your insight, and you couldn't even impress me with your typing | 03:39 |
esr | gnarface: How much money are you willing to bet that I'm an impostor? | 03:40 |
esr | (Please make it a laerge amount!) | 03:40 |
gnarface | esr: i think you misunderstood what i meant when i said i'm not playing | 03:42 |
gnarface | didn't we do this dance back in #debian years ago once already? | 03:43 |
esr | Put your money on the table, fool. Or retract yiur silluy accusation. | 03:43 |
gnarface | i'll do neither | 03:43 |
Criggie | esr: the points you raise are perfectly valid - who says them doesn't change their validity. | 03:43 |
esr | gnarface: Then fuck off, idiot. | 03:44 |
gnarface | heh, yea that pretty much proves my point | 03:44 |
gnarface | i'm satisfied | 03:44 |
phogg | Ubuntu quality control is, without question, garbage, but the out of the box experience is good. As a last resort Ubuntu has done for Debian (easing the barrier to entry) could be done for devuan, too. | 03:44 |
phogg | s/resort/resort what/ | 03:44 |
esr | phogg: This is not intended to be a confrintational question, but how diou you reconcile the two claima (1) "quality control is terrible" and (2) "out of the box experience is good"? They seem mutually contradictory to mem so I'd like to undestand your thinking better. | 03:47 |
phogg | esr: Upgrades and combining arbitrary packages can both be quite brittle. The initial install is well tested, but over time as things get changed and updated pathological failure becomes more probable. | 03:49 |
* phogg has been burned by Ubunut a few times. | 03:49 | |
esr | phogg: OK, that's a reasonable answer. | 03:49 |
Criggie | yep - makes sense. So you're encouraged to do the ol' windows reinstall periodically, for a fresh new experience | 03:49 |
phogg | Criggie: and that's against my religion (-; | 03:49 |
Criggie | Whereas my caffeine box is over 17 years of dist-upgrades. | 03:50 |
phogg | I have a couple boxen that started on potato | 03:50 |
esr | phogg: My experience is rgat upgrades are safe recently, but I can remember when rey weren't. | 03:50 |
Criggie | hehhe yeah - testament to something being good in the design. Still a 32 bit install, working on that though. | 03:51 |
phogg | esr: I am a year or two out from my last burn. Eventually I'll brave it again. | 03:51 |
Criggie | yay - some sadistic prick is piping Christmas carols through the office speaker system. Its not really high-fidelity... sounds more like Julio Inglasias yodelling from the back of a cave. Underwater, and he's drunk. | 03:52 |
esr | phogg: Right. Next question - and again, I'm not being an Ubunto fanboy but looking for info. Who gets QC better than Ubuntu? | 03:53 |
phogg | for package QC I know of none better than Debian. | 03:53 |
phogg | Actual usability of the system is another matter. | 03:54 |
esr | phogg: Ugh. That's a messy situation. | 03:54 |
gnarface | i've used a lot of different distros on a lot of different hardware. from sarge up until Jessie, Debian was out in the lead conspicuously on lower breakages during upgrades of the stable distro with 0 | 03:56 |
gnarface | ubuntu server couldn't even ship a working bind package | 03:56 |
gnarface | and people come in here with crippling mint bugs all the time | 03:56 |
phogg | gnarface: I concur. However, from a user DE POV Debian has never been stellar. Having all of the software technically there is not the same as integrating together into a coherent package. They really need some kind of downstream distro to do that part. | 03:57 |
gnarface | actually the first upgrade of debian stable to fail on me was jessie for ppc, due to something they tried to patch for systemd that wasn't broken so they broke it doing so | 03:57 |
phogg | Ubuntu shines at being a coherent package, especially at first, but then fails on good engineering in other areas. It's quite frustrating. | 03:57 |
* esr wonders why he no longer sees this kind of breakage in Ubuntu. | 03:58 | |
gnarface | phogg: like i said, they just need some better meta-packages. but everybody jumped down my throat when i started suggesting a meta-package could refer to non-free packages | 03:58 |
esr | Perhaps my package selecrtion is safe and narrow? | 03:59 |
gnarface | phogg: (to be fair i guess that was months ago and you may not have been here to see it) | 03:59 |
phogg | Debian is a big box of tools you can confidently use to make all sorts of systems. I imagine one day devuan will be the same. Reaching further and also eating Ubuntu's lunch would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath. | 03:59 |
gnarface | esr: i think you just need a larger sample set | 03:59 |
esr | Possibly. | 04:00 |
gnarface | esr: (not just of packages, but of hardware too) | 04:00 |
phogg | esr: Likely. I tend to be wild in my usage, so I bump in to rough edges sooner and harder than most. | 04:00 |
gnarface | esr: having a 1.5mbit max dsl download speed would probably temper some of your other opinions that impact installer size too | 04:00 |
esr | Probably not. The haedware range in my house has been pretty broad. | 04:00 |
gnarface | i dunno your argument last night seemed to paper over any awareness of the existance of non-intel hardware at all | 04:02 |
esr | Id I not mention ARM at least once? I have six RPis I use as a test farm for NTP deve;opment. | 04:03 |
gnarface | yea, but show me an ubuntu live cd that's also an installer that works on your rpi as well as i386 or amd64 hardware. | 04:03 |
gnarface | show me a mint installer that does that | 04:03 |
gnarface | show me ANY distro in fact | 04:04 |
gnarface | that can feasibly address this | 04:04 |
esr | Nobody can, yet. That's what "window odf opportunity" means. | 04:04 |
gnarface | do you know what "wild goose chase" means? | 04:05 |
gnarface | "snipe hunt" | 04:05 |
gnarface | or maybe "boondoggle?" | 04:05 |
gnarface | you literally came in here and suggested that maybe these developers should throw in the towel if they couldn't accomplish that utterly impossible task | 04:06 |
gnarface | and even if they could | 04:06 |
gnarface | your unified installer is going to be 4GB | 04:06 |
gnarface | how is that better than having a separate netinstall image that is only a couple hundred megabytes? | 04:07 |
gnarface | why should the installer be a larger download than the packages from it you're actually going to install? | 04:07 |
esr | Because thumb drives are cheap. | 04:08 |
gnarface | heh, maybe to you, in that locale. you make some obviously popular suggestions but you really don't seem to have thought out the ramifications. | 04:08 |
Criggie | I see a difference between "pre-downloaded" packages which will be out of date quickly, and a smaller netinstall/minimal image. | 04:08 |
Criggie | But the Live CD and the installer CD should be the same iso file | 04:08 |
Criggie | the functionality of "installing" should be identical across whatever options are available. | 04:09 |
jonadab | For people who install _frequently_, a larger image with predownloaded packages is useful. | 04:09 |
* Xenguy arrives late to the party... | 04:09 | |
esr | I'm not intrinsically hostile to the idea of an all-in-one installer that uses the net to pull in large missing pieces. | 04:10 |
Xenguy | netinst? | 04:10 |
jonadab | For people who only install occasionally, netinstall is more practical. | 04:10 |
Xenguy | That's my default install | 04:11 |
jonadab | Or a minimum-install image that gives you just what you need to run apt. | 04:11 |
esr | I just think that in 2018 limiting the installer size die to worry about DSL is a bit shortsighted. But I wouldn't die ion tht hill. | 04:11 |
esr | The important thing is to make whichever all-in-one installer gets built really frictionless. | 04:12 |
esr | In UI terms, I mean. | 04:12 |
furrywolf | I'm on mobile data, as that's my only option here. I rather support limiting the installer size to the bare minimum, and only downloading packages actually being installed. | 04:12 |
Xenguy | I appreciate the minimalism myself. It would be interesting to see the numbers on how many folks download what install media | 04:13 |
furrywolf | many rural areas, especially in the US, do not have high-speed internet yet. | 04:14 |
* esr thinks about an installer tat starts minimal but can be told to cache packages on the thumbdrive so you don't have to re-download every time. | 04:14 | |
Xenguy | esr: "There's an app for that!" | 04:14 |
esr | Potentially bet of both worlds. | 04:14 |
furrywolf | I'm lucky I get 4G... with a big yagi on the roof aimed at the tower. go a little further out and satellite is the option... | 04:14 |
furrywolf | that is a good feature, and in fact one I have suggested before. :) | 04:15 |
furrywolf | I currently implement that by manually cp -u'ing the package dir around. | 04:15 |
Xenguy | It exists, I'm pretty sure | 04:15 |
Xenguy | Some mirror/cache package? | 04:15 |
furrywolf | there's a caching proxy you can run... not aware of any way to do it directly. | 04:16 |
Xenguy | huh, I thought I'd heard about this before, but maybe I'm misunderstanding the use case | 04:16 |
gnarface | yea i'd actually have to disagree with jonadab about the netinstaller just because of that. if you've already got the infrastructure up, and you're already running a caching proxy, a full cd/dvd iso is a waste of space and time | 04:17 |
gnarface | so there's cases where a netinstaller is more useful for frequent installs, too | 04:19 |
jonadab | gnarface: It depends. If you're installing a computer every day or two, but not always in the same location or on the same network... | 04:19 |
gnarface | past a certain threshold | 04:19 |
jonadab | But yes, it depends. | 04:19 |
jonadab | Also, this is an odball case these days, but there are still use cases for a non-networked computer. | 04:20 |
gnarface | it just really depends. that's fundamentally why i think a "one size fits all" installer would be a mistake to even shoot for. sure, there may be one too many images on that mirror... i'll concede that i had a problem picking one too. but like i said, that's also a pretty sophomoric problem. and most those spare images are for arm hardware *nobody else supports* | 04:20 |
furrywolf | I do it by cp -u'ing /var/cache/apt/archives/ to a thumbdrive, then back on the new install... and back again, etc. it's a kluge, but it avoids a large chunk of the repeat downloads. | 04:21 |
jonadab | Oh, I'm in favor of the website steering most users to the netinstall image, with an "other installer images" link for them as wants it. | 04:21 |
jonadab | Just because you have multiple options doesn't mean there's a most-common option you send most people to. | 04:21 |
jonadab | Err, doesn't mean there isn't | 04:22 |
Xenguy | furrywolf: Is this an alternate solution to the problem 'dpkg --set-selections' tries to solve... | 04:22 |
Xenguy | i.e. automating reinstall of all currently installed packages, on a new system | 04:22 |
furrywolf | I don't know what that does, but I strongly doubt it does anything similar. lol | 04:22 |
furrywolf | copying the package cache around means that when apt goes to install stuff, it finds the .deb is already there, so it doesn't need to download it again. | 04:23 |
Xenguy | s/dpkg --set-selections/dpkg --get-selections/g | 04:23 |
furrywolf | the point is to save bandwidth by not downloading the same package on multiple boxen. | 04:23 |
phogg | Xenguy: I think they would be unrelated. He's trying to skip the network time, not auto set the package set. | 04:23 |
Xenguy | Sounds like a better solution you have | 04:23 |
Xenguy | phogg: Thanks, appreciated | 04:24 |
Criggie | depends if anyone here can make it happen - or at least start. | 04:33 |
rwp | Forcing a single install image targets solving a problem for some users at the expense of hurting other users. | 05:03 |
rwp | For example I routinely need one of three different installation models. | 05:03 |
rwp | The small netinst that I can download cheaply and quick and boot and install. | 05:03 |
rwp | The full offline iso set because there are cases I work where I cannot guarantee a cheap, fast, reliable network. | 05:04 |
rwp | A full custom install environment where I keep a local mirror and full custom environment for installations. | 05:04 |
rwp | There is never any such thing as one size fits all but unfortunately there is often only one size available. | 05:04 |
rwp | Forcing a single install image for everyone creates that situation. | 05:04 |
esr | rwp: So what would be wring with an initially netinst insyaller that grabs an caxhes other pieces on your thimbdruve as you need them? | 05:12 |
furrywolf | one option would be to have the installer able to be ran (either booted or started from an existing install) on a box you're not installing on, where it would give the option to download various sets of packages for later installation, writing them to itself. such an option would only work for writable install media, but that's pretty much standard now. | 05:13 |
esr | Every time you need a bigger local install image thatn you have, this hypotheical installer would get it. | 05:14 |
rwp | esr, Nothing is wrong with that as an option. Someone would need to create such a thing however. And it doesn't solve the full offline installation needs. | 05:14 |
furrywolf | this would go very well with caching anything else downloaded during an install for the next install | 05:14 |
furrywolf | i.e. you download the minimal installer, then run it from the box you just downloaded it from, and it prompts you if you want to download any extra package sets, such as a DE set, a server set, a standard install set, or every-fucking-package-ever-made set... | 05:15 |
rwp | Especially for a writable USB device I like the idea of caching it there for the next installation. | 05:15 |
esr | furrywolf: That's where I'm going. If know you're going to have to do a full offline insrall, you bring up your live image and say "grab everything and cache it locally, I'm going to need that. | 05:16 |
rwp | Note that as recent as *today* I needed to install on a machine that *will not boot from USB* and I had to use a physical cdrom. | 05:16 |
furrywolf | sounds like a good idea to me... but we should still make standard install dvds/cds. | 05:17 |
rwp | And this isn't isolated. I was in the datacenter for a client just recently and again, same thing there, needed a real physical cdrom. | 05:17 |
esr | rwp: You think that's still a case common enough to worry about? | 05:17 |
rwp | I am flabborgasted by your question. You are ranting that this did not meet your needs. But don't other people's needs count at least as much? | 05:17 |
rwp | But YES there are a lot of systems out there like this. | 05:18 |
furrywolf | don't make me play babysitter. :) | 05:18 |
esr | rwp: Not saying they don't. I'm really aslking, not arguing. | 05:18 |
rwp | Just go to an installfest sometime and help out and there will be all kinds of equipment people will be trying to install upon. | 05:18 |
rwp | And that doesn't count in the real production equipment I see clients with all of the time. | 05:18 |
furrywolf | and don't make me start arguing for a channel code of conduct. :P | 05:19 |
esr | OK, suppose we accept that we sill need to build install CDs. Is that a reason not to build the kind of all-singing-all-sancing cahing installer we've been discussing? | 05:20 |
esr | cahing->caching | 05:20 |
furrywolf | availability of developer time and motiviation. | 05:20 |
furrywolf | oh, you said "is that", not "is there". I mis-read. my bad. | 05:21 |
rwp | FTR I think a caching installer on writable media such as USB would be quite useful. | 05:21 |
esr | Because, you know, I'd actually work on that. It's a problem that seems crisply defined and moderately interesting. | 05:21 |
furrywolf | I'm eating cruncy food. I'll blame it on that. :) | 05:21 |
furrywolf | crunchy | 05:21 |
redrick | gnarface: Can't believe I'm saying this, but I recognise the diction and writing style of Eric, with whom I co-wrote 'How to Ask Questions the Smart Way'. I'm Rick Moen, http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/ , where you can find my mobile number and call me to verify. | 05:22 |
esr | furrywolf: I'm trying to be nice. :-) | 05:22 |
redrick | (There's about an entire day's worth of channel scrollback I haven't really digested, yet.) | 05:22 |
esr | Oh, hi Rick! | 05:22 |
redrick | Greets. | 05:22 |
esr | redrick: What triggered this: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=13144#p13144 | 05:23 |
redrick | The nick's on account of the strawberry-blond locks, and it's also a pun on the full form of my given name, which you may recall is very much not Richard. | 05:23 |
redrick | Yes, I commented in-channel on it. | 05:24 |
esr | redrick: I don't expect thgat to surprise you. You and I have bee n fighting similar problems (mostly separately) since the 1990s. | 05:24 |
redrick | My remarks in-channel started about 20:49 Pennsylvania time. | 05:26 |
furrywolf | my biggest complaint about the install process is that it bloody STILL leaves you with no wifi on install, even when wifi was set up for the installer. | 05:26 |
redrick | Didn't say much because I was way behind on scrollback, and a close mouth gathers no foot. | 05:26 |
furrywolf | actually, I take that back. I haven't checked the most recent versions. | 05:26 |
esr | redrick: Roger, that was you offering to forward. Good idea. | 05:27 |
esr | furrywolf: Mint gets that right. Surprised me, it did. | 05:27 |
furrywolf | every time I end up having to re-figure-out how to manually configure wpa_supplicant, which itself is an example of how to be as anti-user-friendly as possible. | 05:28 |
esr | furrywolf: *sigh* Agreed. | 05:28 |
rwp | Deailing with WiFi is another good example of there being a decision tree for dealing with it best. | 05:31 |
rwp | For example a stationary system at a small office or home. A mobile device like a laptop, tablet, phone. | 05:31 |
rwp | I would make different choices in those two cases. | 05:32 |
esr | rwp: Fair enough. | 05:32 |
furrywolf | rwp: imho, the installer should copy the wifi settings you used for the install over to the target system... so you have working internet you can use to, say, install a connection manager of some form. | 05:33 |
furrywolf | a non-expert being presented with needing to configure wpa_supplicant by hand will re-install. | 05:33 |
rwp | furrywolf, That seems quite reasonable. | 05:33 |
furrywolf | and "just get a cable", universally the standard response to this complaint, is becoming increasingly unlikely to be an option. | 05:33 |
rwp | For a laptop with wifi my personal preference is wicd. It has a nice UI, of different types available. It is reliable. | 05:34 |
furrywolf | rwp: and if it's not installed, and wifi is your only connection, then what? :) | 05:34 |
rwp | But for static sites like the SOHO desktop using wifi (or RPis) I do prefer wpa_supplicant directly. | 05:34 |
furrywolf | ok, so you know how to use wpa_supplicant... would you __ever__ expect a new user to use it? heh | 05:35 |
rwp | furrywolf, If and only if that were the route taken then I would install it at install time by the installer. | 05:35 |
furrywolf | rwp: it doesn't get installed unless you select one of the big DE tasks. | 05:35 |
rwp | No. That is why for that I prefer wicd. It's nice for the typical laptop user. | 05:35 |
rwp | And part of that is that NetworkManager has screwed me over so many times over the years that I just hate working with it now. | 05:36 |
furrywolf | if you don't select the big bloat tasks, you end up with no connection manager, and for most people, no way to install one. | 05:36 |
furrywolf | another option would be to write a nice simple command-line wifi manager, possibly sharing code with the installer's one. | 05:36 |
rwp | That is a problem to be solved then... | 05:36 |
rwp | Since you mention a cli tool... please look at wicd-curses. It's acceptable. Not quite cli because it does require a smart terminal. But does not need a graphics environment. | 05:37 |
furrywolf | so that all installs on a box with wifi get a usable connection manager installed, even if it's just a wrapper for iwconfig, iwlist, and wpa_supplicant... | 05:37 |
rwp | And wicd-gtk is the pretty graphics widget. | 05:38 |
furrywolf | does it get installed by the installer, ever? :) | 05:38 |
furrywolf | if not, it's not helping. heh. | 05:38 |
redrick | esr: Jetway JBC400P591 pico-ITX bitty-box? | 05:38 |
furrywolf | the problem is, as always, developer time. | 05:39 |
rwp | furrywolf, If the installer did include an option to install a tool, wicd, NM, or other, wouldn't that solve the wifi after install time problem? | 05:39 |
furrywolf | I could spend all night writing a list of things I'd love to have. | 05:40 |
esr | redrick: Different model(s), same general product range. They make varuants with a bunch of different intel chips on them - I think my three are i3 or i5 but I'd have to look to be sure. | 05:40 |
rwp | And those passed in flight... Yes. Developer time. Someone does need to actualy do it. | 05:40 |
furrywolf | but, as it is, de-systemd-ing things is taking all available developer-hours. | 05:40 |
esr | redrick: grue is an AMD G-T40E. | 05:41 |
esr | Huh, So is grelber. Slower version, 800MHz rather than 1000. | 05:42 |
rwp | Unfortunate about your NUC. I have a NUC (and worked with others) and it has the free drivers for Intel networking and video. | 05:43 |
esr | rwp: Yeah. I like the hardware a lot. So does Cathy. | 05:44 |
rwp | But as you had said you can't tell before you get it what it will have inside. I have two USB cameras that appear identical and they are completely different chipsets inside. | 05:44 |
esr | rwp: Yup. | 05:44 |
rwp | Speaking of things if we had our 'druthers about... | 05:46 |
rwp | At install time I would like it if I could add and remove packages from the installation list interactively. | 05:46 |
rwp | My choices are often not the same as the installation default. | 05:47 |
furrywolf | that's a problem with a lot of things these days... hell, once I bought four identical brake lines for the local auto parts store, and them came in four identical boxes... containing four completely different brake lines from three different countries. because they just stuck whatever they could get cheapest that week in the box. | 05:47 |
redrick | esr: Yeah, I see some of the other Jetway models on eBay. Nice little boxes, but I don't see any with mass storage options better than an M.2 socket. Which is fine, but of course, you won't have mirroring. | 05:47 |
furrywolf | s/for/from/;s/them/they/;s/wolfy is awake/wolfy should be thinking about bed/... | 05:48 |
rwp | Speaking of which... I am at one place but I need to drive to another place. Catch all y'all later! | 05:49 |
furrywolf | cyas | 05:49 |
redrick | Courtesy of GNU screen, I'm always in Menlo Park, California, even when I'm not. ;-> | 05:50 |
furrywolf | I'm always 7 hours north of you, then. :) | 05:51 |
man_in_shack | and whose fault is that? | 05:59 |
furrywolf | bbl, wolfy bedtime | 06:05 |
redrick | man_in_shack: California is absolutely the fault of San Andreas. | 06:38 |
man_in_shack | i see what you did there | 06:38 |
* redrick cues up 'I'm All Shook up' | 06:39 | |
marsxyz[m] | I'm trying to update my ARM devuan laptop to ascii, and when I do it starts freezing, even when Xorg isn't on. | 08:14 |
marsxyz[m] | Is there anyone else who got a similar problem ? | 08:15 |
grillon | does anyone use dowse? | 09:25 |
golinux | Drat . . . I missed all the fun. | 09:38 |
golinux | I will only add one comment here: | 09:39 |
golinux | If the VUAs had decided to fork Mint, the last 4 years of my life would have been totally different. I doubt I would had had anything to do with Devuan. | 09:41 |
redrick | Yeah, not sure it's a winning argument to say 'Please discard your four years of process planning because I find fault with some of the current situation.' (I very loosely paraphrase and may be unfair, here. Must do more careful reading and doubtless some schmoozing.) | 10:28 |
redrick | Pardon my Norwegian. ;-> | 10:29 |
KatolaZ | marsxyz[m]: what are you upgrading from and how? | 10:29 |
golinux | redrick: You're up late | 10:41 |
armin | laptop migrated to devuan | 10:46 |
armin | \o/ | 10:46 |
golinux | Another happy Devuan user . . . :D | 10:48 |
KatolaZ | armin: great | 10:48 |
KatolaZ | did they check your passport in the process? :P | 10:49 |
armin | :D | 10:49 |
armin | golinux: installation was a bit of a hassle though | 10:50 |
KatolaZ | (damn modern customs! anything can slip through under their very eyes...) | 10:50 |
armin | when selecting full disk encryption, i had to enter the disk passphrase twice. | 10:50 |
armin | also installing from a live image with refractinstaller was awful. | 10:50 |
armin | so i just used the live image to download the installer image, re-flashed the usb stick with that, installed from that, and called it a day. | 10:51 |
KatolaZ | armin: the live installer is not for all tastes | 10:51 |
armin | also sticked with just ecryptfs for user home. | 10:51 |
KatolaZ | admittedly | 10:51 |
armin | KatolaZ: i'm fine with simple text interfaces, but i'm *so | 10:51 |
KatolaZ | no I don't mean the text interface | 10:51 |
armin | KatolaZ: i'm fine with simple text interfaces, but i'm *so* used to the nice blue dialog/ncurses based installer that it was cumbersome | 10:51 |
KatolaZ | I normally use d-i as well | 10:52 |
KatolaZ | I mean in terms of functionality | 10:52 |
armin | yeah it misses some | 10:52 |
KatolaZ | the live installer is more suited to users who just want what they see in the live image | 10:52 |
KatolaZ | (well, exactly what they see in the live image, indeed...) | 10:53 |
armin | dunno, just installed from the normal installer, booted my system, and re-flashed the usb stick so it has the live image again | 10:53 |
armin | all good | 10:53 |
KatolaZ | yep | 10:54 |
armin | bash: systemctl: command not found | 10:54 |
armin | finally... | 10:54 |
KatolaZ | :D | 10:54 |
armin | and finally i'm not greeted with 160 options when doing man systemd<TAB> | 10:55 |
golinux | LOL! | 11:01 |
redrick | armin: It's very Zen. | 11:03 |
armin | http://m2m.pm/devuan.jpg | 11:04 |
armin | finally escaped that idiocy | 11:04 |
armin | couldn't feel any better | 11:04 |
redrick | Not even if someone sent you a 30-year-old vintage port? Personally, that would increase my feeling of well-being, as I'm willing to prove in the name of science. | 11:09 |
redrick | But it's great you're enjoying Devuan. ;-> | 11:09 |
* KatolaZ goes to check if he still has that 30-year-old vintage port in the shed... | 11:11 | |
redrick | Actually, somewhere on my Maslow hierarchy of needs is a good pappersteak sandwich. Unobtainium on the US West Coast. Apparently a New Jersey thing, so I need to do a college reunion, apparently. | 11:12 |
redrick | (Blazingly irrelevant but amusing fact: Abraham Mazlow dropped dead while jogging in my town, leading to many morbid jokes about his needs not being met.) | 11:15 |
redrick | s/pappersteak/peppersteak/ | 11:15 |
armin | redrick: :D | 11:33 |
errandir1 | I like the look of that neofetch thing | 12:10 |
armin | errandir1: it's also known as memefetch, but i like it, too | 12:16 |
marsxyz[m] | <freenode_Kat "marsxyz: what are you upgrading "> from jessie to ascii, by modifying the sources.list, it doesn't fail during the migration but once It's done, system start to freeze | 12:17 |
marsxyz[m] | by freezing, it just stop working and stay idle, even when no DE is on or installed. | 12:17 |
gnarface | marsxyz[m]: did you remember apt-get dist-upgrade? | 12:21 |
marsxyz[m] | Yeah, of course | 12:21 |
marsxyz[m] | Tbh I was just asking if someone knew from which package it was coming from, because I'm lazy to read the logs. But I'll since no one seems to know | 12:22 |
gnarface | could it just be going to sleep? | 12:23 |
marsxyz[m] | Screens stays on | 12:23 |
gnarface | oh | 12:23 |
marsxyz[m] | I guess It's a graphical driver issue | 12:24 |
marsxyz[m] | but I find it odd it still freeze when no DE is on nor installed | 12:24 |
gnarface | which graphical drivers are you using? it is possible for them to be unhappy with kvm too | 12:24 |
gnarface | sorry KMS | 12:24 |
gnarface | i keep mis-typing that | 12:25 |
gnarface | but you can turn that off | 12:26 |
gnarface | it would be something to try anyway | 12:26 |
gnarface | or even just try a different setting | 12:26 |
gnarface | you can set stuff in /etc/default/grub | 12:26 |
marsxyz[m] | Turn it off may be a good idea | 12:28 |
marsxyz[m] | I'll try once I get home, ty ! | 12:28 |
marsxyz[m] | Oh also, a completly different issue: | 12:30 |
marsxyz[m] | I have another install under jessie | 12:31 |
marsxyz[m] | I installed libreoffice, but it looks horrible | 12:31 |
marsxyz[m] | I guess it's because it doesn't use my gtk theme | 12:31 |
marsxyz[m] | so I install libreoffice-gtk3 , nothing changes | 12:31 |
marsxyz[m] | and libreoffice-gtk2 don't want to install | 12:32 |
gnarface | i'm not sure what's up with that either | 12:33 |
gnarface | other stuff shows your gtk2 and gtk3 themes? | 12:34 |
gnarface | the right themes, i mean? | 12:34 |
marsxyz[m] | yup, right themes for every application but libreoffice | 12:38 |
armin | meh, can't get that "save session on log-out" to not bei activated by default on xfce, even with intense playing around with it and re-logging in | 12:38 |
marsxyz[m] | armin close every windows | 12:39 |
armin | i did | 12:39 |
marsxyz[m] | now log out with the save session things on | 12:39 |
armin | i did | 12:39 |
marsxyz[m] | now connect again | 12:39 |
armin | sorry, it's not a layer 8 problem. :) | 12:40 |
marsxyz[m] | Lel ok | 12:40 |
armin | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-session/+bug/1777914 | 12:52 |
armin | seems to not have been reported against upstream, yet | 12:52 |
armin | so is it possible to get device auto mounting in xfce in general in devuan? | 16:18 |
armin | i'm unable to get that working flawlessly with my basic setup and i would love to read more about what's actually going on... | 16:18 |
djph | pretty sure my stuff automounts ... but then again I rarely use external storage. | 16:19 |
armin | djph: it's absolutely not an important issue or something, i just want to learn more about why that breaks on my setups. | 16:20 |
djph | user error? | 16:20 |
armin | djph: i can easily just open a shell and su right away, that's not the problem. i just try to understand what i'm missing. | 16:20 |
djph | I think I manually sync/unmount before unplugging, so maybe that has something to do with it ? | 16:20 |
armin | djph: well i'm used to devices popping up in thunar (that's what happens) but when clicking on those i get an error. also i'm used to those eject buttons to work. | 16:21 |
armin | i'm guessing something dbus related. | 16:22 |
armin | or polkit. | 16:22 |
djph | armin: eject button is the same thing (IIRC, unless i'm thining of something else) | 16:22 |
armin | i also made sure i'm member of the plugdev group, not sure if that's related, too | 16:23 |
armin | the most weird thing i experience is that muting the pcspkr in alsamixer will not mute the beep speaker and running the beep command produces a tone that is one octave higher than when un-muted | 16:34 |
KatolaZ | armin: you must have some other control | 16:38 |
KatolaZ | in alsamixer | 16:38 |
* man_in_shack mixes KatolaZ's alsa | 16:44 | |
armin | KatolaZ: oh, indeed, thanks! | 17:07 |
KatolaZ | armin: did nothing :D | 17:27 |
Beerbelott | Hi. Is there a way to change reportbug destination email address? | 17:52 |
KatolaZ | Beerbelott: yes | 17:53 |
KatolaZ | which version are you using? | 17:53 |
KatolaZ | the global reportbug.conf should have the correct one | 17:54 |
KatolaZ | anyway, you can change it in ~/.reportbugrc | 17:54 |
Beerbelott | 7.1.7+deb9u1 | 17:56 |
johnjay | why is sytemd bad? is it something to do with /etc/init.d? | 17:56 |
Beerbelott | Is still got submit@bugs.debian.org & /etc/reportbug.conf does not seem to hold another conf than the default | 17:56 |
KatolaZ | yeah I know | 17:57 |
Beerbelott | It* | 17:57 |
KatolaZ | I haven't updated the version in ceres/beowulf | 17:57 |
KatolaZ | sorry | 17:57 |
Beerbelott | I am still on ascii though | 17:57 |
KatolaZ | uh? | 17:57 |
KatolaZ | then it should go to bugs.devuan.org, IIRC | 17:57 |
Beerbelott | I though, since it was not the transition version jessie anymore, than those tools would point the right way | 17:57 |
Beerbelott | thought* | 17:57 |
KatolaZ | yeah Beerbelott | 17:58 |
KatolaZ | they should have | 17:58 |
Beerbelott | Well I am up-to-date on the packages side | 17:58 |
Beerbelott | Wanna me check sth? | 17:58 |
KatolaZ | I can't attend it right now | 17:58 |
KatolaZ | :\ | 17:58 |
KatolaZ | there are a few tweaks needed in reportbug anyway | 17:59 |
Beerbelott | Well /etc/reportbug.conf comes from the reportbug package, which does not seem to have been modified by Devuan, looking at its version number | 17:59 |
KatolaZ | on top of providing versions for beowulf and ceres | 17:59 |
KatolaZ | Beerbelott: modofying the config is not enough | 17:59 |
KatolaZ | you need to have devuan as a configured BTS | 18:00 |
KatolaZ | if you want to check | 18:00 |
KatolaZ | use | 18:00 |
KatolaZ | reportbug --bts devuan PACKAGENAME | 18:00 |
KatolaZ | it should put submit@bugs.devuan.org as a destination | 18:00 |
Beerbelott | Will send report to Devuan (per request). | 18:01 |
KatolaZ | mmmhhh | 18:01 |
Beerbelott | Cool :) | 18:01 |
Beerbelott | Lemme fill-up a dummy report 'til the end though | 18:01 |
KatolaZ | Beerbelott: how did you get that version though? | 18:01 |
KatolaZ | the version in ascii is 7.1.6+devuan2.1 | 18:02 |
KatolaZ | I guess it might come from ascii-updates | 18:02 |
KatolaZ | just use the package in ascii | 18:02 |
Beerbelott | Eek | 18:03 |
Beerbelott | Please select a severity level: [normal] | 18:03 |
Beerbelott | invalid report type https, defaulting to debbugs | 18:03 |
KatolaZ | yes | 18:03 |
Beerbelott | followed by traceback | 18:03 |
KatolaZ | we don't have http report | 18:03 |
KatolaZ | only email | 18:03 |
KatolaZ | but again, the version coming from debian does not know about bugs.devuan.org | 18:04 |
Beerbelott | Well I think I spot the problem | 18:05 |
Beerbelott | Version from Debian upstream is 7.1.7+deb9u1. The one from Devuan's is 7.1.6+devuan2.1 | 18:05 |
KatolaZ | no Beerbelott | 18:06 |
KatolaZ | the former comes from stretch-updates, apparently | 18:06 |
KatolaZ | not from devuan | 18:06 |
KatolaZ | https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/d1pkgweb-query?search=reportbug&release=ascii | 18:06 |
Beerbelott | Exactly what I said | 18:07 |
KatolaZ | which means that you are using Debian repos? | 18:07 |
Beerbelott | I transitioned from them | 18:08 |
Beerbelott | Not anymore | 18:08 |
KatolaZ | ok, that's the problem then | 18:09 |
KatolaZ | just install the devuan version | 18:09 |
KatolaZ | apt-get install reportbug=7.1.6+devuan2.1 | 18:09 |
Beerbelott | I think I followed a guide to transition | 18:09 |
KatolaZ | yeah I know | 18:09 |
Beerbelott | That meens I must have leftovers all over the place... | 18:09 |
Beerbelott | means* | 18:09 |
KatolaZ | and there is apparently a glitch there | 18:09 |
KatolaZ | yeah Beerbelott | 18:09 |
cosurgi | umm, guys. | 18:10 |
KatolaZ | we can't keep track of updates | 18:10 |
cosurgi | W: Failed to fetch http://packages.roundr.devuan.org/merged/dists/ascii/main/Contents-amd64.gz: Hash Sum mismatch | 18:10 |
cosurgi | Hashes of expected file: | 18:10 |
cosurgi | - Filesize:28455891 [weak] | 18:10 |
cosurgi | - SHA256:f73869d62f35bdcb4891088f1a61d31824dfb57f5551ee451094a9c9b641faa4 | 18:10 |
cosurgi | Hashes of received file: | 18:10 |
cosurgi | - SHA256:14c75c2ff5ba4e3ba8fae781803f57676e0db7677cc85c5cca2f16c7aff12a33 | 18:10 |
cosurgi | Were some devuan server compromised, or something ? | 18:10 |
cosurgi | - Filesize:28232956 [weak] | 18:10 |
KatolaZ | cosurgi: no compromise | 18:10 |
cosurgi | so I shoud `rm -rf /var/lib/apt/lists/*` ? | 18:11 |
KatolaZ | you should apt-get update | 18:11 |
KatolaZ | I guess | 18:11 |
Beerbelott | apt install reportbug=7.1.6+devuan2.1 python3-reportbug=7.1.6+devuan2.1 | 18:11 |
Beerbelott | forcing the python3-reportbug version is mandatory | 18:11 |
cosurgi | KatolaZ: ok, I do `apt-get update` let's see if I get this error... | 18:12 |
KatolaZ | cosurgi: there is an old Release file apparently | 18:13 |
KatolaZ | which is pretty strange | 18:13 |
KatolaZ | let me check | 18:14 |
Beerbelott | That's strange. I went back to stretch packages, clean + update show stretch version only. Back to ascii packages, and with a simple update package from stretch got replaced with ascii one, while before both were coexisting | 18:17 |
Beerbelott | Where could this cache 'bug' have come from? | 18:17 |
Beerbelott | Oh, probably because the stretch version was installed | 18:18 |
Beerbelott | lemme check | 18:18 |
KatolaZ | cosurgi: forcing a merge now | 18:19 |
cosurgi | KatolaZ: yeah, I goe exactly the same problem again | 18:20 |
cosurgi | *got | 18:20 |
KatolaZ | cosurgi: merging now | 18:20 |
cosurgi | thanks! :) | 18:20 |
KatolaZ | thank you for reporting | 18:20 |
KatolaZ | we had updated Contents | 18:21 |
KatolaZ | and I forgot to issue a full merge | 18:21 |
KatolaZ | sorry | 18:21 |
cosurgi | I am very happy this we can sort it out :) | 18:21 |
cosurgi | me reporting, and you fixing ;) | 18:21 |
Beerbelott | Is there a way to chack for all packages with multiple upstreams versions? | 18:22 |
Beerbelott | That'd help pinpoint potentially buggy situations | 18:22 |
Beerbelott | Well I test purge + install and it solved the pb | 18:28 |
Beerbelott | Unable to connect to Devuan BTS (error: "NoNetwork()"); continue [y|N|?]? | 18:29 |
Beerbelott | Mmmh? | 18:29 |
KatolaZ | Beerbelott: query_bts non funziona, come ho detto sopra | 18:30 |
KatolaZ | non abbiamo il SOAP service | 18:30 |
Beerbelott | It seems you are confusing me with some italian m8 :D | 18:31 |
KatolaZ | ops sorry | 18:32 |
KatolaZ | having three concurrent chats | 18:32 |
Beerbelott | :D | 18:32 |
KatolaZ | one of them is in Italian | 18:32 |
KatolaZ | :D | 18:32 |
KatolaZ | and forgot to switch :D | 18:32 |
KatolaZ | hahahahahah | 18:32 |
Beerbelott | So query-bts non functional? | 18:32 |
KatolaZ | query_bts does not work | 18:32 |
KatolaZ | we don't have the SOAP service enabled atm | 18:32 |
Beerbelott | so -b (--no-query-bts) is in order? | 18:33 |
KatolaZ | cosurgi: please try now | 18:35 |
cosurgi | KatolaZ: ok. | 18:36 |
KatolaZ | cosurgi: ok means "I try now" or "it works now"? | 18:37 |
cosurgi | KatolaZ: sorry. It means I am trying now. | 18:37 |
KatolaZ | ok thanks | 18:37 |
KatolaZ | cosurgi: please let me know | 18:37 |
cosurgi | KatolaZ: yeah I will :) | 18:37 |
KatolaZ | thanks cosurgi | 18:38 |
cosurgi | 7 minutes remaining :) We have to wait a bit. I suppose that servers do not have plenty of bandwidth. | 18:39 |
KatolaZ | cosurgi: quite the opposite | 18:39 |
KatolaZ | it should be more than enough :) | 18:39 |
cosurgi | oh? So this is strange. By bandwidth is utilised in 6% only: I am downloading at 121 kB/s, while I could download ad 2500kB/s | 18:40 |
cosurgi | s/By/My | 18:40 |
cosurgi | ouch | 18:41 |
cosurgi | KatolaZ: done. And I still have the error :( | 18:41 |
KatolaZ | cosurgi: the server has much more than that | 18:41 |
cosurgi | E: Failed to fetch http://packages.roundr.devuan.org/merged/dists/ascii/main/Contents-amd64.gz Hash Sum mismatch | 18:41 |
cosurgi | Hashes of expected file: | 18:41 |
cosurgi | - Filesize:28455891 [weak] | 18:41 |
KatolaZ | oh lord | 18:41 |
cosurgi | - SHA256:f73869d62f35bdcb4891088f1a61d31824dfb57f5551ee451094a9c9b641faa4 | 18:41 |
cosurgi | Hashes of received file: | 18:41 |
cosurgi | - SHA256:14c75c2ff5ba4e3ba8fae781803f57676e0db7677cc85c5cca2f16c7aff12a33 | 18:41 |
cosurgi | - Filesize:28232956 [weak] | 18:41 |
cosurgi | Last modification reported: Tue, 04 Dec 2018 17:27:44 +0000 | 18:41 |
cosurgi | Release file created at: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 02:30:07 +0000 | 18:41 |
cosurgi | apparently it aborted before 7 minutes passed. Perhaps only after downloading Contents | 18:42 |
cosurgi | also this: | 18:42 |
cosurgi | E: Failed to fetch http://packages.roundr.devuan.org/merged/dists/ascii-updates/main/Contents-amd64.gz Writing more data than expected (17378 > 17335) | 18:42 |
cosurgi | Hashes of expected file: | 18:42 |
cosurgi | - Filesize:17335 [weak] | 18:42 |
cosurgi | - SHA256:7a1b3e09a44c6dd3742cc74f478801901665dc2f62e7a3a25333f1f2ab2e802b | 18:42 |
cosurgi | Release file created at: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 15:58:14 +0000 | 18:42 |
cosurgi | E: Failed to fetch http://packages.roundr.devuan.org/merged/dists/ascii-updates/contrib/Contents-amd64.gz | 18:43 |
KatolaZ | cosurgi: you apt-get update-d right/ | 18:43 |
KatolaZ | ? | 18:43 |
cosurgi | actually that server wasn't updated in a while - like 3 months or such. | 18:43 |
cosurgi | the command was exactly "apt-get update" | 18:43 |
cosurgi | KatolaZ: my /etc/apt/sources.list is pretty clean, do you want to see it? | 18:44 |
KatolaZ | ok let me check | 18:44 |
KatolaZ | nono cosurgi | 18:44 |
KatolaZ | no need | 18:44 |
KatolaZ | there is actually an issue there | 18:44 |
KatolaZ | working on it now | 18:44 |
cosurgi | ok :) | 18:45 |
KatolaZ | cosurgi: solved | 19:29 |
KatolaZ | please try now | 19:29 |
cosurgi | KatolaZ: ok, wi will try now | 19:36 |
cosurgi | KatolaZ: it worked! Thanks a lot :) | 19:40 |
forester | Hi. I have install Devuan ascii. And I can not to disable touchpad. I did it all the time on LinuxMint and others distros. How to do this in Devuan? | 19:45 |
KatolaZ | cosurgi: np, and thanks for reporting | 20:05 |
KatolaZ | forester: your question is a bit generic... | 20:07 |
forester | KatolaZ: I can not do find settings where touchpad could be disabled. | 20:08 |
forester | ? | 20:08 |
KatolaZ | forester: which touchpad? | 20:10 |
KatolaZ | how did you use to disable it in whatever distro you used before? | 20:10 |
KatolaZ | are you using the same DE? | 20:10 |
forester | Excuse me. I forgot that. Mate. | 20:11 |
johnjay | soon devuan will be installed | 20:13 |
johnjay | and all other OSs will tremble | 20:13 |
forester | KatolaZ: touchpad in my samsung notebook | 20:22 |
forester | yesterday I did it in Rosa 10 linux. | 20:22 |
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