| joe9 | what is the firefox package on devuan? | 00:53 |
|---|---|---|
| joe9 | I mean recommended version | 00:53 |
| joe9 | firefox-esr? | 00:56 |
| Xenguy | joe9: Doesn't it come pre-installed? | 01:32 |
| Xenguy | Anyhow, yes, firefox-esr seems to be the default | 01:32 |
| joe9 | it does. ok, Thanks.. | 03:18 |
| salsbury | hi there | 04:06 |
| Xenguy | Question salsbury ? | 04:11 |
| salsbury | hi Xenguy, actually no. just hanging out | 04:11 |
| salsbury | ;) | 04:11 |
| Xenguy | hiya | 04:11 |
| Xenguy | me too | 04:11 |
| salsbury | I've been using devuan for a couple of months now | 04:12 |
| Xenguy | What's the verdict? | 04:12 |
| salsbury | it actually works pretty good | 04:13 |
| Xenguy | Which DE did you choose? | 04:13 |
| salsbury | im using the stable version | 04:13 |
| salsbury | xfce | 04:13 |
| Xenguy | me too, now | 04:13 |
| Xenguy | oh, I'm using MATE | 04:13 |
| Xenguy | But using Ascii now, yeah | 04:13 |
| Xenguy | I like XFCE | 04:13 |
| Xenguy | I have used it before, probably tried a few | 04:14 |
| Xenguy | I like LXDE | 04:14 |
| Xenguy | Altho at the time it had no 'notification' functionality | 04:14 |
| salsbury | yeah mate is clean and all, but xfce gives more options to tinker a bit without having to eat a weeks worth of documentation | 04:14 |
| salsbury | heeh | 04:14 |
| Xenguy | I see | 04:14 |
| Xenguy | For me, MATE is just Gnome2, which is a reasonable environment, with sane defaults | 04:15 |
| Xenguy | Works for me | 04:15 |
| Xenguy | I'd use use XFCE too with no problems | 04:15 |
| salsbury | yeah, I came in from a gnome3 DE, still trying to adapt | 04:16 |
| Xenguy | I took a quick look at that, but it was too much paradigm shift for me to get it, without further research | 04:16 |
| Xenguy | I respect XFCE cos it is designed to be minimalist | 04:17 |
| Xenguy | That takes work | 04:17 |
| salsbury | i do apreciate the minimalist | 04:17 |
| Xenguy | Where things are fast and snappy | 04:18 |
| Xenguy | makes sense to me | 04:18 |
| salsbury | coming from gnome3, where the system consimes about 2 GB of ram at boot time | 04:18 |
| salsbury | jeeesus | 04:18 |
| salsbury | xfce starts at 500mb or so | 04:18 |
| Xenguy | Yeah, I definitely try to avoid bloat | 04:18 |
| Xenguy | nice | 04:18 |
| salsbury | feels nice | 04:18 |
| Xenguy | AFAIK LXDE is even less of a footprint than XFCE, or at least used to be... | 04:19 |
| Xenguy | One question would be if it can do 'notifications' (as I mentioned above)... | 04:20 |
| salsbury | also, somehow, gnome used to have a weird bug I never figured out where after couple a days worth of usage, it would accumulate 4GB of ram, had to reboot every time. (12GB system) | 04:20 |
| Xenguy | But that aside, I really liked that GUI | 04:20 |
| Xenguy | memory leakage, I hear ya | 04:21 |
| Xenguy | Seems like many large apps suffer from that | 04:21 |
| salsbury | yeah, I tried lxde too but still... options :3 | 04:21 |
| Xenguy | You like to configure, I get it | 04:21 |
| Xenguy | Why aren't you using KDE? ; -) | 04:21 |
| salsbury | because it's bloated as well | 04:22 |
| Xenguy | Oh wait, bloated | 04:22 |
| Xenguy | hah | 04:22 |
| salsbury | riiight | 04:22 |
| salsbury | :) | 04:22 |
| Xenguy | I feel the same way, I definitely prefer the lighter footprint software | 04:22 |
| salsbury | it's a shame a "modern" linux system, makes your new machine feel like it's got 10 years on it | 04:23 |
| salsbury | by "new" i mean, bought it in 2015 | 04:25 |
| salsbury | which for me is pretty new | 04:25 |
| salsbury | how long have you been using devuan Xenguy ? | 04:29 |
| Xenguy | Back... | 04:30 |
| Xenguy | Pretyy much since Debian went systemd, whenever that was | 04:30 |
| Xenguy | *Pretty | 04:30 |
| salsbury | nice | 04:30 |
| salsbury | the systemd thing was really a turn for the worst imo | 04:32 |
| Xenguy | Some folks get it, and others don't | 04:32 |
| Xenguy | I'm glad we have the expertise we do here | 04:32 |
| salsbury | definitely | 04:33 |
| salsbury | but over all it fragmented the init landscape even further | 04:34 |
| salsbury | resulting in less brain power to develop other inits | 04:35 |
| Xenguy | Consolidated, perhaps | 04:35 |
| salsbury | hmmm | 04:35 |
| salsbury | how so? | 04:35 |
| Xenguy | One init system to rule the world | 04:35 |
| Xenguy | But we need alternatives, and freedom for that | 04:35 |
| salsbury | oh yes, that's it | 04:36 |
| salsbury | it's a bit odd that every single major distro went the systemd way | 04:36 |
| Xenguy | I think so | 04:36 |
| gnarface | straight up bribery and coercion | 04:37 |
| Xenguy | Something odd definitely happened when Debian caved, IMHO | 04:37 |
| gnarface | dirty pool | 04:37 |
| aaro | the power of red hat was made clear imo | 04:39 |
| salsbury | hmm | 04:40 |
| salsbury | the red hat part is kind of weird to me though | 04:40 |
| salsbury | I've never seen anyone that I know of, that actually uses redhat outside of a working environment | 04:41 |
| Criggie | no but centos and fedora exist for those people | 04:41 |
| salsbury | much less fedora | 04:41 |
| salsbury | oh right, centos...forgot about that one | 04:41 |
| Criggie | must be the circles in which you move - we use a lot of centos here. | 04:41 |
| Criggie | fedora is certainly smaller than it used to be. | 04:42 |
| salsbury | yeah, you're right | 04:42 |
| salsbury | totally forgot about that one | 04:42 |
| Criggie | sok - I got kids I'm used to being wrong. Nice to be right now and again. :-P | 04:42 |
| salsbury | ehehh | 04:43 |
| salsbury | anyway... I was about to go on the systemd thing... but then I realised I already had this conversation before | 04:47 |
| salsbury | you all have probably had it too | 04:49 |
| gnarface | yea but if you feel like ranting, we have a channel for that too -> #debianfork | 04:50 |
| salsbury | oh nice | 04:51 |
| salsbury | thanks | 04:51 |
| gnarface | no problem | 04:51 |
| salsbury | but nahh I know where this goes | 04:51 |
| Criggie | Oh - did we figure out if the esr guy was real or a fake ? | 04:54 |
| salsbury | it's not systemd, it's actually the underlying mentality of a good = mac-like, then it's goes over to certain programming languages and programming styles, being adopted because of economics, that are not suited for system development.... | 04:54 |
| salsbury | esr guy? | 04:55 |
| salsbury | as in ff esr? | 04:55 |
| furrywolf | sounded real to me | 04:55 |
| furrywolf | appropriately-sized ego and all. :) | 04:56 |
| salsbury | what happened? | 04:56 |
| gnarface | well someone using esr's handle and reputation tried to derail the devuan project with some sort of boondoggle of the type imagined up by a 1st-week Linux noob user. whether it's really him or not he's wrong. | 05:01 |
| salsbury | hmmm | 05:02 |
| gnarface | he made some good points but seemed to not grasp the cost of implementing his idea nor care about how much more of everyone's download bandwidth it would waste | 05:02 |
| gnarface | i'm sure the discussion is continuing on the mailing list | 05:03 |
| gnarface | people who think it's reasonable to expect 50mbit downstream is a common household feature aren't really in touch with actual reality | 05:03 |
| salsbury | searching the mailing list atm | 05:03 |
| gnarface | he was also really insulting to the project developers inability to address a problem largely considered impossible by everyone | 05:04 |
| Criggie | which one - the " only one installer " ? | 05:05 |
| Criggie | or the binary stuff ? | 05:05 |
| gnarface | oh yea and he was barely intelligible with a typo rate of about one every other word and misusing positives/negatives in a confusing way | 05:05 |
| gnarface | Criggie: the universal installer thing | 05:05 |
| Criggie | oh yeah. I see the point - even windows server has "one installer" now. | 05:07 |
| furrywolf | I think a more-flexible installer isn't a bad idea... I like my idea of an installer that, when on writable media, can download various sets of packages to itself if you run it from another box... but I somehow don't feel the need to be quite so rude about it. | 05:07 |
| gnarface | yea their "one installer" doesn't support non-intel architectures though | 05:07 |
| Criggie | yeah - that's hard. Windows and mac do it by only supporting one hardware | 05:08 |
| furrywolf | you're all fucking morons for not having done it already, don't you know? | 05:08 |
| Criggie | furrywolf: I resemble that remark! | 05:08 |
| gnarface | furrywolf: heh, yea, ignoring that nobody else thinks it is even possible. i /facepalmed at that one | 05:08 |
| gnarface | i had to wonder if it was really esr and he was just on crack | 05:09 |
| furrywolf | I think it was. | 05:09 |
| Criggie | Its totally possible, but we'r eonly on this planet for 4 score and 10, and life's too short. | 05:09 |
| Criggie | I think it was a geek who happens to have the initials E S and R. But I doubt it was the real one. | 05:09 |
| Criggie | He's too busy evangelising. | 05:09 |
| furrywolf | if it was someone impersonating him, it was someone who studied extensively for the role, correctly citing the hardware he has and things like that... which seems like way too much effort just to rant. | 05:11 |
| furrywolf | he also mentions devuan being installed on the same hardware he asked about on http://esr.ibiblio.org/ , which I believe is one of his sites. | 05:13 |
| furrywolf | and he has an appropriate freenode cloak and identified nick, and he's famous enough someone would think twice before giving it to someone else. | 05:13 |
| furrywolf | so... I don't see any reason to think it was someone impersonating him. | 05:14 |
| Criggie | heh | 05:15 |
| Criggie | What can I say - I'm tainted by security; a professional doubter. | 05:15 |
| Criggie | I mean - are you really a furry wolf? | 05:16 |
| furrywolf | his posts on that web site mirror his complaints here, including "I’m annoyed that I couldn’t put it on Cathy’s NUC. The kernel was too old to see the NIC in the device." | 05:16 |
| furrywolf | of course | 05:16 |
| * furrywolf is soft and fluffy! | 05:16 | |
| furrywolf | all signs point to it having been the esr, not an esr or an imposter. | 05:18 |
| furrywolf | I think his ideas are valid - a more-flexible installer is not a bad idea, especially one that caches downloaded packages, which is a feature I've manually kludge-implemented. making it easier to install non-free firmware would be nice too - on one of my boxes I have to manually add firmware to the installer or I can't install. | 05:20 |
| furrywolf | however, I don't think telling everyone they're fucking retards for not having already done it with all their ample spare time is the right way to interact with other projects... but I'm not famous, so maybe he has different rules. :) | 05:21 |
| salsbury | heh... can I have a link pls? | 05:26 |
| furrywolf | I'll let someone who remembers where the logs are answer that. | 05:26 |
| gnarface | furrywolf: all very credible sounding evidence, but my paranoia partially stems from the fact that i know people are out there trying this stuff on me, and ESR has a reputation actually worth stealing. (relevant note: i've lost most my friends recently to a catphishing Facebook profile someone made in my name) | 05:27 |
| gnarface | (and many of these were people who've known me for over 20 years) | 05:27 |
| gnarface | IRL. | 05:27 |
| gnarface | so there's that | 05:27 |
| furrywolf | gnarface: his comments on a blog linked off his catb page echo what was said in he channel... and that catb page has been around so close to forever that even I know its url... | 05:27 |
| gnarface | noted | 05:28 |
| furrywolf | and nothing he said is worth a major impersonation effort over... he just had a rant and a few suggestions. | 05:28 |
| gnarface | well i ... disagree on that. i think the damage could be significant if his opinion is taken as fact | 05:28 |
| furrywolf | that is, pretending esr said those things does not benefit anyone, and would have taken a lot of work. | 05:28 |
| gnarface | again, as long as saner minds prevail, you're right. but it could have and as far as i know, still might go a different way... | 05:29 |
| gnarface | it would be a mess if the devuan project started chasing his albatross | 05:29 |
| furrywolf | eh, as I said, I wouldn't mind improving the installer... I currently have to copy the package cache around manually, which is most annoying. :P | 05:30 |
| gnarface | which, based on the low forethought of the suggestions and the verbal abuse that preceded them, do seem like ideas that would require the clout of someone noteworthy in order to support | 05:31 |
| gnarface | i still think 100% of his complaints could be addressed with a minor change to the download link on the main web site, and a couple (gasp!) non-free tasks for tasksel | 05:31 |
| gnarface | all points i've brought up myself before | 05:31 |
| furrywolf | and requiring manual non-free firmware installation is a bit annoying. yes, from a freeness point of view, it could be said it's a bad idea to make it easy to install non-free blobs... but a new user who finds the installer doesn't work is probably going to use another distro. | 05:32 |
| gnarface | and my solutions were taken even less seriously, and met with much more vehement resistance, but as you can see would have also been a level of effort below that which would utterly cripple and bankrupt the proejct like his ideas were | 05:32 |
| furrywolf | the firmware issue crops up before you get anywhere near tasksel.... a rather large portion of laptops need a wifi blob to install, which you have to copy onto the install media yourself. | 05:33 |
| Criggie | yeah - I hate wireless. | 05:33 |
| gnarface | but the devuan installers HAVE that firmware. maybe not all of it, but an effort had already been made there where Debian hadn't. they were just missing *his* firmware. anyway, i think we can agree they're known annoyances. just not what should be done about them. | 05:34 |
| gnarface | i prefer solutions that change as little as possible | 05:34 |
| gnarface | obviously he has either the luxury of not caring about cost to the point it's dangerous or that's simply the intended effect; to maximize cost | 05:35 |
| furrywolf | I think he just has a rather large ego. | 05:35 |
| Criggie | ok I'm going - later all. | 05:35 |
| furrywolf | I don't think there was anything malicious going on. | 05:35 |
| salsbury | heh... still going throuth the devuan mailing list, is it the discussion about the /usr merger? | 05:36 |
| furrywolf | they don't have the firmware for my toughbook's wifi, either. :) | 05:36 |
| furrywolf | salsbury: no | 05:38 |
| salsbury | oh | 05:38 |
| gnarface | salsbury: this was his draft statement after the in-channel rant. i haven't been following the mailing list so i don't know for sure the discussion made it there yet. https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=13144#p13144 | 05:40 |
| gnarface | this version doesn't include a lot of the over-the-line verbal abuse he opened with here | 05:41 |
| gnarface | (i've been banned from #debian for less) | 05:41 |
| salsbury | oh nice gnarface, thanks a bunch | 05:41 |
| salsbury | :D | 05:41 |
| salsbury | i'm diving in.... | 05:41 |
| gnarface | he really loves Ubuntu and Mint without seeming to have had enough experience with either to know better. that was another red flag to me. | 05:42 |
| golinux | <gnarface> i'm sure the discussion is continuing on the mailing list | 05:44 |
| golinux | Nope. | 05:44 |
| gnarface | oh, i really thought it would though | 05:46 |
| furrywolf | I actually agree with him on most of the issues... just not the way he said it. | 05:47 |
| furrywolf | I also think we don't have enough developer-hours to write a new installer at this time. | 05:48 |
| redrick | furrywolf: What you said. | 05:49 |
| redrick | I'm still trying to find the time to properly read Eric's screed and make thoughtful comments on them for Dng. | 05:50 |
| salsbury | ok, so, I've read most of it, but there's something I simply do not understand. I'm completely out of the loop. this is it: My username ain't lying, I am in fact "ESR". | 05:51 |
| salsbury | is that supposed to mean anything? | 05:51 |
| redrick | *chuckle* | 05:51 |
| furrywolf | he's right, the debian installer is getting dated. we have a livecd that uses an entirely separate installer. a single more-flexible installer, that provided an easier way to select non-free firmware as an option, and could be easily customized with different sets of packages (they could even be the exact same tasksel lists), would provide a better user experience. | 05:52 |
| salsbury | sounds like it's something like "yes this is, in fact, linus torvalds speaking" | 05:52 |
| redrick | salsbury: Probably yes. | 05:52 |
| furrywolf | salsbury: ESR is Eric S Raymond, who has been involved in open-source software since ~forever. it'd be like posting saying "yes, before you ask, I'm Linus and I wrote your kernel"... | 05:52 |
| salsbury | ohhhh | 05:53 |
| salsbury | haadhdahahah | 05:53 |
| salsbury | ok I get it | 05:53 |
| salsbury | it can't be him | 05:53 |
| furrywolf | basically, he's bragging about how famous he is, and saying that should give his arguments more weight. | 05:53 |
| furrywolf | and that we should put up with abuse because of it. | 05:54 |
| redrick | furrywolf: He always walks right into the egomania accusation, every time. | 05:54 |
| furrywolf | I'm pretty sure it is him. rants are pretty in-character. :) | 05:54 |
| furrywolf | all evidence is it was him. | 05:55 |
| redrick | furrywolf: Oh, it's Eric. And yes, he did a similar speach in the Fedora community. | 05:55 |
| redrick | speech, even. | 05:55 |
| salsbury | yeah...but the content... I understand he's talking about the first impact on a newcomer's persective, but arguing about the kernel being too onld? | 05:55 |
| salsbury | old? | 05:55 |
| furrywolf | salsbury: he's complaining that the version included with the installer is too old to support his new network card, which is a valid complaint. | 05:56 |
| redrick | IIRC, the kernel comment relates to breadth and recency of hardware support, which is fair enough. | 05:56 |
| furrywolf | but, the debian way, and hence the devuan way, is to stick with a well-tested kernel for the installer. | 05:56 |
| salsbury | but the amount of different distros still using 4.9 is still huge | 05:57 |
| furrywolf | for example, some of the more-recent kernel versions have issues with ext4 corruption, with data loss, people currently trying to bisect patches, etc, etc... | 05:57 |
| furrywolf | which is why you don't default to installing the newest everything. | 05:57 |
| redrick | Precisement, monsieur. | 05:57 |
| salsbury | I don't like it, sure. but it's not exactly a devuan fault. it's an ecosystem fault ... | 05:57 |
| furrywolf | a customizable installer could have an option to add the most-recent kernel image to the install media, serving both populations. | 05:58 |
| salsbury | hmmm | 05:58 |
| redrick | I like the way you think. Worth considering. | 05:59 |
| furrywolf | as I said, I do agree with a lot of what he said... and if he said it with a lot less abuse, he'd have a much higher chance of it happening. :P | 05:59 |
| salsbury | true | 06:00 |
| redrick | You know, there's a reason I long ago went for a fairly laid-back persona, especially if I'm going to say things that might get people's backs up. | 06:00 |
| redrick | Tactically, you would want people to consider your substantive suggestions the proper topic of discussion, rather than whether you were annoying in your speaking style. | 06:01 |
| redrick | First time people woke me up to say 'Dude, you're on Slashdot', I knew that the first ten comments would be 'Who does this guy think he is, thinking he should be interviewed by the IT press?' That was true, but every one of those were followed by 'RTFA', because the story said up-top that I'd insisted I'd be glad to introduce the journalist to Linux people who really mattered, like Andrew Tridgell or Paul Mackerras, and I was just an unemployed Silicon ... | 06:05 |
| redrick | ... Valley sysadmin active on Melbourne LUG lists. | 06:05 |
| redrick | So the reporter started out the story with 'You might not think Rick Moen is a modest guy, but....' | 06:06 |
| furrywolf | I avoid slashdot. | 06:06 |
| redrick | Of course. Everyone has in at least two decades. | 06:07 |
| redrick | This was low values of time_t . ;-> | 06:07 |
| furrywolf | lol | 06:07 |
| redrick | Used to work at the place that ran it, and even _we_ looked down on it. | 06:08 |
| furrywolf | the current place to avoid is reddit... sooooo much utter idiocy on there. | 06:08 |
| redrick | I'm sure there are worse places, but wasn't proposing a dumpster fire competition. | 06:09 |
| furrywolf | lol | 06:10 |
| * furrywolf curls up on golinux and yawns | 06:14 | |
| redrick | For long years, my favourite way to install debian-testing/unstable was the Sidux live CD, released every quarter with a pretty darned cutting-edge installation kernel, hence few driver problems. (They continued Debian's omit-nonfree-firmware policy, though.) | 06:14 |
| redrick | Sidux had a fight, a bunch of devs excommunicated each other, the devs left to successor project Aptosid, which was just a trademark change. Then, they had another schism, and some of their devs made a copycat project, Siduction. Then Aptosid died. So, Siduction's the last ISO standing. | 06:16 |
| redrick | It's worth studying, IMO. | 06:16 |
| redrick | Debian Sid with stabilisation patches. Live CD with built-in installer. | 06:17 |
| redrick | In particular, I want to figure out how they deal with the kernel issue: Cutting edge but not bleeding edge. | 06:18 |
| redrick | When I say 'patches', I mean they maintain a .deb repo with fixup packages to fix Sid's glitches. | 06:19 |
| salsbury | hmmm | 06:20 |
| * redrick realises he's been a motormouth, decides to stifle self. | 06:20 | |
| salsbury | please, by all means | 06:21 |
| salsbury | I'm entertained | 06:21 |
| salsbury | :) | 06:21 |
| redrick | Thank you. You've been a great audience. | 06:22 |
| salsbury | I was thinking more on the lines of, wtv dev1 does, it would make sense to keep the kernels in sync with mainline. and that should be the focus imho | 06:23 |
| salsbury | for example | 06:23 |
| salsbury | 4.9 should be at 4.9.144 insteand of 4.9.0-8 | 06:23 |
| redrick | Sidux/Aptosid/Siduction didn't consistently stick to the 'quarterly release' promise, but they do OK, and release-on-time-at-all-costs has its disadvantages. [**COUGH** Ubuntu **COUGH**] | 06:23 |
| salsbury | and so on | 06:23 |
| furrywolf | I'm getting ready for bed... at the end of how much useful I can say. | 06:25 |
| salsbury | for cutting edge kernels though, I don't know. I feel like producing a release based on 4.19 would be a overwhelming deluge of trying to solve too many contradicting dependencies all ending up pointing to systemd. | 06:30 |
| KatolaZ | salsbury: there is a reason why it's called 4.9.0-8... | 06:32 |
| KatolaZ | instead of 4.9.144 | 06:33 |
| Xenguy | esr: yer either on the bus, or off the bus | 06:34 |
| salsbury | more and more libs are depending on something that ends up depending on sysd. that sid release you're talking about, is imo way easier to keep up with, comparing to what devuan is facing now | 06:34 |
| KatolaZ | salsbury: this has little to do with the kernel so far | 06:34 |
| KatolaZ | salsbury: the name of the kernel package has little to do with the actual kernel version number | 06:35 |
| KatolaZ | and that's a smart way of managing upgrades | 06:35 |
| salsbury | i stand corrected | 06:36 |
| KatolaZ | you can easily upgrade a package whose version is 1.2.3-4 with a version 1.2.3-5 | 06:36 |
| KatolaZ | uprading 1.2.3-4 to 1.2.4 requires a dist-upgrade, normally | 06:36 |
| KatolaZ | so using kernel version 4.x.0-y is a way to allow seamless kernel upgrades | 06:36 |
| salsbury | got it | 06:36 |
| furrywolf | bbl, wolfy bedtime | 06:36 |
| salsbury | we're at 4.9.130-2. sorry. ignorance on my part | 06:37 |
| redrick | furrywolf: Tuck yourself in and work on that winter coat. | 06:40 |
| furrywolf | :) | 06:40 |
| KatolaZ | salsbury: there is no reason to be sorry | 06:41 |
| KatolaZ | I wasn't patronizing, only explaining the rationale behind the package "Version" | 06:41 |
| KatolaZ | then the actual version of the kernel is what you get with `uname -r` | 06:41 |
| salsbury | I mean, me thinking out loud, not actually making a lot of sense... i think I could do better, that's all | 06:41 |
| salsbury | ;) | 06:42 |
| KatolaZ | :D | 06:42 |
| salsbury | but let's talk about userland then | 06:45 |
| salsbury | how can dev1 keep up with it? ... without ending up being based on gentoo for example | 06:49 |
| KatolaZ | salsbury: uh? | 06:49 |
| KatolaZ | there is no way devuan can be reasonably be based on gentoo :) | 06:50 |
| KatolaZ | AFAICT | 06:50 |
| salsbury | exactly | 06:50 |
| salsbury | but gentoo is still going just fine. they control the upstream, in terms of package manager...etc | 06:51 |
| salsbury | I don't know if it's happening already or not, but, apt might end up depending on something that depends on systemd | 06:53 |
| salsbury | ...like polkit | 06:53 |
| KatolaZ | salsbury: uh? | 06:54 |
| KatolaZ | we should solve the problems that we have, rather than thinking of how we could possibly solve problems we might not ever have | 06:54 |
| KatolaZ | there is no reason why apt should depend on polkit or systemd | 06:55 |
| salsbury | synaptic does, right? | 06:56 |
| KatolaZ | synaptic is not apt | 06:56 |
| salsbury | sure | 06:56 |
| KatolaZ | and Devuan has alternative polkit packages nevertheless | 06:57 |
| salsbury | what I'm trying to say is, he who controls the upstream... | 06:57 |
| KatolaZ | salsbury: yes, but you can't "control" any upstream packahe | 07:06 |
| KatolaZ | ~package | 07:06 |
| KatolaZ | there are about 30k of them... | 07:06 |
| salsbury | not all | 07:06 |
| salsbury | ofc | 07:06 |
| KatolaZ | even gentoo has a grasp on no more than a few thousands, at most | 07:07 |
| salsbury | but that apt though... *puts on thinfoilhat* | 07:07 |
| salsbury | :p | 07:07 |
| KatolaZ | salsbury: again, apt comes directly from Debian | 07:07 |
| KatolaZ | I like irony helms much better than tinfoil hats, and only when they are really needed :P | 07:08 |
| salsbury | sure, but systemd isn't going to stop growing and bloating anytime soon and debian will just keep up with it, and one day, it might be too late to fork, because by then, one will have to fork everything, it's either X ou wayland or some most usable DE's and what not | 07:13 |
| salsbury | I'm I getting closer to making any sense or ...should I just read more and lurk more? (I'm so sorry, I wish I knew more about this to have a nice conversation. This is all I've got. :/ ) | 07:16 |
| KatolaZ | salsbury: we must face the problems that exist, not those that might not even come to existence :) | 07:17 |
| KatolaZ | there was an issue with sysvinit possibly being kicked out of unstable, several weeks ago | 07:17 |
| KatolaZ | we stepped forward and offered to help with maintenance | 07:17 |
| KatolaZ | now a new version of sysvinit is in debian/sid and in debian/buster | 07:18 |
| KatolaZ | and many bugs have been closed | 07:18 |
| salsbury | oh nice | 07:18 |
| KatolaZ | thanks to the collaboration of Debian and Devuan developers | 07:18 |
| KatolaZ | this is what I mean by solving the problems that we have now | 07:18 |
| salsbury | ok, i understand | 07:18 |
| KatolaZ | instead of thinking of the problems we "might" (or might not) have in four or five years | 07:18 |
| KatolaZ | if we think at all the stuff that can go bad, we should shut the shop down now | 07:19 |
| salsbury | hey thanks for putting up with me though | 07:19 |
| salsbury | :D | 07:19 |
| KatolaZ | uh? | 07:19 |
| KatolaZ | :D | 07:19 |
| KatolaZ | I just know we will get through | 07:20 |
| KatolaZ | don't ask me how | 07:20 |
| KatolaZ | don't ask me if | 07:21 |
| KatolaZ | we will | 07:21 |
| salsbury | as devuan user, that's really nice to hear | 07:22 |
| salsbury | as a* | 07:22 |
| KatolaZ | salsbury: this should be the determination of *any* Devuan user | 07:23 |
| KatolaZ | this is the only way we can get through | 07:23 |
| KatolaZ | :) | 07:23 |
| salsbury | I'll drink to that! | 07:25 |
| KatolaZ | :D | 07:25 |
| salsbury | (literally) | 07:25 |
| * KatolaZ gets a sip of tea... | 07:25 | |
| * golinux is having a cup too atm | 07:26 | |
| * KatolaZ runs to prepare one more cuppa... | 07:27 | |
| * salsbury puts vermouth in coffee, cause' it's COLD outside | 07:27 | |
| KatolaZ | salsbury: but you are *INSIDE* :D | 07:27 |
| golinux | Maybe he's in an igloo | 07:28 |
| KatolaZ | well, he is still *in* an igloo | 07:28 |
| KatolaZ | :P | 07:28 |
| salsbury | well, you see, the housing industry in my area has the habit of building houses that deal with rather well with the summer heat... that has consequences | 07:28 |
| salsbury | so, outside and inside have no meaning now | 07:29 |
| salsbury | also, electricity is expensive so, no thx | 07:30 |
| KatolaZ | :D | 07:31 |
| salsbury | :3 | 07:33 |
| joe9 | exit | 09:14 |
| joe9 | 09:14 | |
| Kohlrabi | KatolaZ: | 09:24 |
| Kohlrabi | <KatolaZ> salsbury: we must face the problems that exist, not those that might not even come to existence :) | 09:24 |
| Kohlrabi | <KatolaZ> there was an issue with sysvinit possibly being kicked out of unstable, several weeks ago | 09:24 |
| Kohlrabi | <KatolaZ> we stepped forward and offered to help with maintenance | 09:24 |
| Kohlrabi | I found a problem with systemd-shim in Debian, which means every DE using logind will probably not work anymore in buster | 09:25 |
| Kohlrabi | KatolaZ: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=909192 | 09:25 |
| Kohlrabi | or rather, polkit | 09:29 |
| KatolaZ | Kohlrabi: we will have elogind in beowulf | 09:29 |
| Kohlrabi | Great | 09:29 |
| KatolaZ | and their dep is wrong | 09:31 |
| Kohlrabi | The dep chain goes to policykit-1 | 09:31 |
| KatolaZ | that's not a problem | 09:31 |
| Kohlrabi | Which depends on libpam-systemd | 09:31 |
| KatolaZ | again, that's not a problem | 09:31 |
| Kohlrabi | hm | 09:31 |
| KatolaZ | since elogind Provides: libpam-systemd | 09:31 |
| KatolaZ | in Devuan | 09:31 |
| KatolaZ | this is how stuff works already in ASCII | 09:31 |
| Kohlrabi | https://packages.debian.org/buster/elogind | 09:32 |
| Kohlrabi | This is recent | 09:32 |
| Kohlrabi | maybe they didn't update it yet | 09:32 |
| KatolaZ | Kohlrabi: elogind is in unstable | 09:33 |
| KatolaZ | thanks to LeePen | 09:33 |
| KatolaZ | we are working with Debian devs to have it accepted in unstable | 09:33 |
| KatolaZ | together with a bit more stuff around | 09:34 |
| KatolaZ | to make sure that elogind can replace libpam-systemd whenever that is possible | 09:34 |
| KatolaZ | (I mean, also in Debian) | 09:34 |
| Kohlrabi | Yep | 09:34 |
| Kohlrabi | But...if you help make sysv work in Debian, what about Devuan? :) | 09:34 |
| KatolaZ | this should guarantee a more accurate dep policy wrt systemd in Debian | 09:34 |
| KatolaZ | what do you mean? | 09:34 |
| KatolaZ | o_O | 09:35 |
| KatolaZ | sysv is already working in Devuan | 09:35 |
| Kohlrabi | Partially | 09:35 |
| KatolaZ | uh? | 09:35 |
| KatolaZ | what are you talking about? | 09:35 |
| Kohlrabi | Like I said, it conflicts now with some DEs | 09:35 |
| KatolaZ | sysvinit? | 09:35 |
| KatolaZ | partially? | 09:35 |
| Kohlrabi | I linked you the bug report | 09:35 |
| KatolaZ | Kohlrabi: please let's solve the problems when they arise | 09:35 |
| Kohlrabi | you cannot install Mate DE AND sysv | 09:35 |
| KatolaZ | that's a problem of Debian | 09:36 |
| Kohlrabi | Exactly | 09:36 |
| KatolaZ | not of Devuan | 09:36 |
| Kohlrabi | That's what I said | 09:36 |
| Kohlrabi | Ooh | 09:36 |
| Kohlrabi | Misunderstanding | 09:36 |
| KatolaZ | please wait for polkit to enter Beowulf | 09:36 |
| KatolaZ | everything will be more clear then | 09:36 |
| KatolaZ | :) | 09:36 |
| KatolaZ | we will get through, no matter what :) | 09:36 |
| Kohlrabi | My point is, if I can install sysvinit in Debian, why should I switch to Devuan, other than political reasons? | 09:36 |
| KatolaZ | because not everything will work ootb | 09:37 |
| KatolaZ | while it will in Devuan | 09:37 |
| Kohlrabi | oh | 09:37 |
| Kohlrabi | good :) | 09:37 |
| KatolaZ | or you can stay with Debian, if you are happy with that | 09:37 |
| KatolaZ | :) | 09:37 |
| Kohlrabi | welll | 09:37 |
| Kohlrabi | Last time I switched to sysvinit I diodn't get audio because of PA issues | 09:37 |
| Kohlrabi | maybe this works better in Devuan than Devuan | 09:38 |
| Kohlrabi | err | 09:38 |
| Kohlrabi | than Debian* | 09:38 |
| Kohlrabi | Or maybe I should just get a Firefox-ALSA build | 09:38 |
| Kohlrabi | What kind of helpis needed to bring Devuan forward? | 09:39 |
| Kohlrabi | I don't know very much about the whole init-shannanigans | 09:39 |
| KatolaZ | Kohlrabi: package maintainers, testers, donations | 09:51 |
| KatolaZ | this is what Devuan needs | 09:51 |
| KatolaZ | and btw Kohlrabi, the bug you pointed to will only cause problems in Debian so far | 09:56 |
| KatolaZ | unless Debian will accept elogind and the relevant packages accept to amend deps | 09:56 |
| KatolaZ | in devuan this will not be a problem, since elogind will continue providing libpam-systemd | 09:56 |
| Kohlrabi | KatolaZ: I know, that it only affects Debian | 13:24 |
| Kohlrabi | I just wanted to point out that in buster *so far* a lot of DEs might break with sysv | 13:24 |
| Kohlrabi | Which might make a lot of people flock her. | 13:24 |
| Kohlrabi | here* | 13:24 |
| furrymcgee | there was DEs before systemd | 13:47 |
| Kohlrabi | furrymcgee: That doesn't mean those DEs didn't adopt logind by now. | 14:20 |
| KatolaZ | Kohlrabi: they *have* already adopted logind in Stretch... | 14:23 |
| KatolaZ | and nevertheless they work fine in ASCII with elogind | 14:23 |
| proteusguy | I just downloaded and booted the ASCII qemu release. I have a login text but no idea what the built-in default id/pwd is. How do I get started? | 15:31 |
| gnarface | root:toor | 15:34 |
| gnarface | i think | 15:34 |
| jyri | that rings a bell | 15:34 |
| proteusguy | gnarface, bingo! :-) thanks! | 15:37 |
| gnarface | no problem | 15:38 |
| proteusguy | I'm moving away from Kubuntu 14.04 and have been looking for non systemd distros. This one looks most promising. | 15:38 |
| proteusguy | Are there docs that show how to install/setup a window manager? | 15:46 |
| KatolaZ | proteusguy: which window manager? | 15:46 |
| proteusguy | kde preferable although I'm considering LXQt | 15:46 |
| KatolaZ | proteusguy: just run "tasksel" | 15:48 |
| KatolaZ | and select "KDE" | 15:48 |
| proteusguy | KatolaZ, appreciate the pointer. How does one discover this info? Is it in a doc site or wiki somewhere? | 15:49 |
| KatolaZ | proteusguy: in this respect, any guide about Debian is OK | 15:50 |
| KatolaZ | tasksel has been around in Debian for the best part of the last 15 years | 15:50 |
| proteusguy | Ah ok - I basically pretend to have a Debian system is what you're saying and just ignore anything about the init system? | 15:51 |
| KatolaZ | uh? | 15:52 |
| KatolaZ | proteusguy: Devuan is basically Debian without systemd | 15:52 |
| proteusguy | gotcha - thanx. | 15:53 |
| KatolaZ | no | 15:53 |
| KatolaZ | np | 15:53 |
| moiree | When I ask to install for example the package linux-kbuild-4.9 in ascii on the i386 archticture all I get is the error 404. i.e.: | 16:25 |
| moiree | E: Failed to fetch http://deb.devuan.org/merged/pool/DEBIAN/main/l/linux/linux-kbuild-4.9_4.9.130-2_i386.deb 404 NotFound | 16:25 |
| KatolaZ | moiree: can you pin-point the actual mirror? | 16:30 |
| KatolaZ | (please)? | 16:30 |
| KatolaZ | actually, that package has not been forked by devuan | 16:33 |
| KatolaZ | so it comes directly from debian | 16:33 |
| moiree | KatolaZ: mirror.vpgrp.io | 16:35 |
| moiree | KatolaZ: Debian has it though. | 16:38 |
| KatolaZ | hold on moiree | 16:40 |
| * moiree holds on | 16:40 | |
| KatolaZ | moiree: that mirror is not in the R | 16:40 |
| KatolaZ | in the Round-Robin | 16:41 |
| KatolaZ | it was putt off-line 5 or 6 days ago | 16:41 |
| KatolaZ | are you using a dns-cache? | 16:41 |
| moiree | KatolaZ: Indeed, it is not in the rr names, when I dig it. | 16:43 |
| KatolaZ | moiree: do you have a dns-cache? | 16:43 |
| moiree | KatolaZ: No, but I use apt-cacher-ng. I just restarted it and it could get the package. | 16:45 |
| moiree | KatolaZ: Thank you, Sir! | 16:45 |
| KatolaZ | oh ok | 16:47 |
| KatolaZ | that's probably why then | 16:47 |
| KatolaZ | great | 16:47 |
| _abc_ | Hi. Just updated ff using aptitude, to 60.3 something esr, and a lot of things are broken. For example it is not possible to disable auto updates now. | 22:26 |
| _abc_ | There should be a warning against these "features" imo. | 22:26 |
| _abc_ | In devuan packages. I assume ff is in non-free, did not check. | 22:26 |
| _abc_ | I'm having a lot of fun editing about:config manually | 22:32 |
| _abc_ | "fun" | 22:32 |
| _abc_ | Does anyone know what the equivalent of loading a windows .reg file is for the firefox about:config db view? | 22:32 |
| fsmithred | I don't understand how the new noscript works | 22:32 |
| _abc_ | fsmithred: also it changed ui completely and it sucks in so many ways, AND the password export import thing is no longer possible. | 22:33 |
| fsmithred | I didn't know about password import/export, but I agree with your sentiments | 22:33 |
| _abc_ | fsmithred: I think it's the change from Chrome to whatever it's called now that kicked the extension makers in the groin. Will take a while to recover a bit I guess. Meanwhile back to unsafe about:config editing. 1990s are calling. | 22:33 |
| fsmithred | the new artists didn't learn about borders | 22:34 |
| _abc_ | brb need to empty a washing machine | 22:34 |
| _abc_ | fsmithred: I think they're struggling to make things work a bit. I understand the new ui programming paradigm is a complete change from the previous. | 22:34 |
| _abc_ | brb in 15 | 22:34 |
| _abc_ | re | 22:44 |
| _abc_ | Okay I think I nailed the update related things in about:config | 22:46 |
| golinux | Care to share? | 22:46 |
| _abc_ | Looking for a way to export the list. Password export not solved yet. A forum recommends saving logins.js and one of the .db file. Accessing the contents is not so easy. I once tried with sqlite3 cli tool and it was not okay, they used some modded version of the sqlite internally | 22:47 |
| _abc_ | golinux: as soon as I find a way to export settings from about:config? | 22:47 |
| golinux | Great! | 22:47 |
| golinux | Thanks | 22:47 |
| _abc_ | golinux: for now, search for update in the about:config search bar, then turn each boolean update related to false. | 22:47 |
| _abc_ | Looking for a solution. | 22:48 |
| _abc_ | Also the update url can be edited. | 22:48 |
| golinux | I can do that | 22:48 |
| golinux | Cool. Think I've got it. | 22:48 |
| _abc_ | re: passwords: the problem appeared in 58.x but only hit us when the ESR update was pushed from 57 ? to 60. | 22:49 |
| _abc_ | https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1202029 relevant thread | 22:49 |
| _abc_ | Interesting there's a setting in about:config called edvtools.chrome.enabled which defaults to false, has to be set true to use the web console ! | 22:52 |
| _abc_ | They are cripping ff at a Poettering rate! | 22:52 |
| _abc_ | I have no idea what that setting does, can paste with it false or true, *crippling | 22:57 |
| Hurgotron | https://campd.wordpress.com/2012/11/12/firefox-and-addon-developers-should-set-devtools-chrome-enabled/ | 22:57 |
| _abc_ | I wonder if they'll punish Poettering by making him wear a suit and starched shirt now that IBM owns RH | 22:58 |
| _abc_ | Hm fsmithred is gone | 23:05 |
| _abc_ | ! | 23:08 |
| _abc_ | no channel bot? | 23:08 |
| _abc_ | Also: ff60 seems to be advertised as the 1st browser which permits auto login on various sites without a password. I interpret that as it storing some credentials and at least an unique identifying tuple online. Does it do that? | 23:20 |
| _abc_ | https://www.infosecurity-magazine.com/news/firefox-60s-webauthn-api-no/ WebAuthn? I understand some credentials need installing? | 23:22 |
| _abc_ | Aha in about:config there's an enable for webauthn and for usb token | 23:22 |
| _abc_ | What security horrors does this imply for people's passwords and such now? | 23:22 |
| _abc_ | Relevant thread: https://github.com/Nitrokey/dongleauth/issues/111 | 23:24 |
| _abc_ | Ah, ok, so bulk modding prefs works via user.js . ref: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1197798 | 23:25 |
| _abc_ | Okay, no more ff related pollution on #devuan from me. | 23:26 |
| minnesotags1 | Hola. Who here is using Open Nebula? | 23:55 |
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