libera/#devuan/ Friday, 2019-02-22

ezcapewhy run a debian distro with ~2 year old software instead of Arch?00:13
specingezcape: ever heard of debian unstable?00:16
KatolaZezcape: ever heard of "preference"? :)00:24
specingKatolaZ: "preference"?00:24
specingI don't get why people consider debian to be outdated00:25
specingyou can run unstable00:25
KatolaZI don't get why people keep suggesting distros to others :)00:25
specinggranted it is probably less stable than distros that revolve around latest&greatest software00:25
KatolaZthere are many cases in which running unstable is just not possible00:25
specingbut it is out there00:25
KatolaZand all this arms-race for "the latest version" is something I genuinely fail to grasp00:26
gnarfaceevery crime requires motive and opportunity.  when there's a surplus of motives, people tend to band together to create opportunity.00:27
KatolaZhehe00:30
KatolaZI like this one gnarface  :)00:30
specingI'd love if I could have Gentoo with binary packages, MAC turned on by default (apparmor or selinux), grsec and working Ada toolchains00:32
ezcapeSorry didnt seen KotalaZ's reply01:25
ezcapecannot see he quit01:25
DonkeyHoteihe didn't01:27
ezcapeDonkeyHotei: really? Has he gone into hiding? Cannot see him in the userlist.01:32
gnarfacestill showing up for me.  might be a problem with your client or the server you're on01:33
ezcapegnarface: I see :)01:33
ezcapethanks btw :)01:34
gnarfacethe question you initially asked has a serious answer, but it's also a common troll so you have to try harder to sound serious if you want to be taken seriously about it01:34
gnarfaceif you were just trolling about it, do that in #debianfork01:34
ezcapegnarface: thank you, but I scrolled up, and cannot see that it's about01:35
ezcapesee what's01:35
ezcapehttps://old.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/01:36
gnarfacealright you've lost me.  i don't follow your train of thought at all.01:38
ezcapeGoldberg Varaiations. :(01:40
ezcapeno no, again, I mean a huge :)01:40
ezcapethats a reason to live01:41
gnarfacei almost thought i understood what you were grasping at, but you lost me again01:41
ezcapeBach?01:41
gnarfacei know Bach, and wikipedia tells me the relationship between Bach and "Goldberg Variations" but i don't see the link from that to antinatalism nor to either and debian stable01:42
ezcapehehe that is complicated. ;)01:43
gnarfaceunless you mean that people advocating against rolling releases are morally aligned with antinatalists, which still doesn't tell me what Bach has to do with it, and fundamentally misrepresents the maintenance regime debian stable generally gets01:43
ezcapesorry, your IQ is higher than mine.01:44
gnarfacestill not high enough to follow what you mean unfortunately01:45
ezcapeoposites attrack :(01:45
golinuxezcape: http://vhemt.org    Glenn Gould reigns.  Please continue OT on #debianfork.01:45
ezcape:)01:45
ezcapegolinux: I so agree!01:46
golinux:D01:47
ezcape:) Yes debianfork :)01:47
DonkeyHoteii see no mention of glenn gould on that website01:48
ezcapegnarface: I guess you read books, I do not :)01:48
golinuxTwo different topics Gould = Bach01:49
golinuxPlease tke to #debianfork01:50
gnarfaceezcape: well the cliff's notes version is that it's because Debian's "2 year old" stable distro gets regularly backported security and stability patches, while ABI-breaking changes are forbidden01:50
golinuxgnarface: Thanks for trying to stay on-topic.  :)01:52
ezcapegnarface: thats great! As long as it's backported IÃ'm fine :)01:53
golinuxThat's what backports is for01:55
systemdlete2May I weigh in on this?  I am one who prefers fixed releases, and I am particularly interested in LTS releases.  However, I am not some kind of nihilist(?) about rolling releases.  Those are fine for a few of my VMs (although I still admit I'd prefer to run everything, everywhere on fixed releases).02:03
systemdlete2but prob this still belongs in debianfork...02:04
specingattention everyone, my devuan btrfs install into VM became busted for some reason02:20
specingseveral thousand of btrfs checksum mismatches02:21
specing:/ rip02:21
watchcatthis is why i just stict to ext4. bios/mbr/sysv/ext4 forever.02:22
DonkeyHoteialso, chs and not lba, right?02:23
watchcati think i still have some isa cards somewhere, too.02:25
Centurion_Danspecing: I had that on a host the other day.  A reboot solved it but I think next chance I get I'll ditch btrfs...04:47
specingwatchcat | this is why i just stict to ext4. bios/mbr/sysv/ext4 forever.11:39
specingnever had any issue on Gentoo and I've been using btrfs for 5 years everywhere11:39
MinceRi tried btrfs on a usb flash device, but it killed itself11:40
MinceRso i switched to ext411:40
specingCenturion_Dan: you rather have silent corruption by ext4?11:40
Centurion_Danspecing: I've been ext4 for years and not yet experienced silent corruption.11:41
specingCenturion_Dan: how would you know? its silent11:42
MinceRbtrfs offers nice features but it's useless as long as it's so unstable11:42
specinglike I said, in 5 years on Gentoo, btrfs on 10 machines and 0 problems11:42
Centurion_Danspecing: how do you know silent corruption is possible..11:42
specing5 days of devuan in VM and it blows up11:42
KatolaZo_O11:42
specingCenturion_Dan: because ext4 does not do data integrity assurance11:42
neplevitandoesn't zfs and btrfs have scrub commands to check for corruption? :)11:42
specingneplevitan: scrub started at Thu Feb 21 14:19:52 2019 and was aborted after 00:00:0011:43
specingI immidiately scrubed the whole disk of this machine and it found 0 errors in 90GB of data11:43
neplevitanoh, my last scrub was on 9th of january, maybe i should start a new one11:44
specingyes11:44
specingI was thinking of putting it into the auto-snapshot cronjob11:44
neplevitanext4 on lvm blew up in my face last time i tried it :)11:45
neplevitanthat was on debian 8 i believe11:45
KatolaZstrange I have had several servers running for 8+ years on ext4 and none of them has ever "blown up in my face"11:46
KatolaZo_O11:46
gnarfacei've seen it happen11:48
gnarfacethere was an issue where a newer version of e2fsprogs would corrupt filesystems created by older versions11:49
uniqueNameHello,14:45
uniqueNameI have a bit of a problem with my wacom (Devuan ASCII, up to date)14:46
uniqueNameThe light turns on, ans lsusb detects it,14:46
uniqueNamebut the mouse isn't moved by the pen.14:46
uniqueNameand xsetwacom --list lists nothing.14:47
xrogaanoh15:59
xrogaanuniqueName: have you done the prerequired researches to make sure wacom works properly on linux?16:00
xrogaanFor instance, did you read all theses: https://linuxwacom.github.io/16:00
xrogaanif the mouse isn't moved by the pen, you might be lacking the X11 driver.16:01
xrogaanuniqueName: have you installed the packages listed by "apt-cache search wacom"?16:02
xrogaannot the -dev or -dgb though16:02
xrogaandbg*16:02
xrogaanuniqueName: what is Xorg saying about it? What's in the logs?16:03
uniqueNameI have got everything from apt search installed.16:04
xrogaanwhat device do you have, specifically?16:05
uniqueNameWacom intuos something16:06
xrogaanSo, this is part of the linux package. You have to make sure the hardware you have is working with the version of the libraries and drivers that are installed.16:06
uniqueNameCan't see what sort it is on the box.16:06
uniqueName~/.xsessionerrors says the following when the wacom is plugged in by the way :16:07
xrogaandebian is way behind, using 0.22 while current is 0.3216:07
uniqueName"thunar-volman: Unsupported USB device type "usb".16:07
uniqueNamethunar-volman: Unsupported input device type "(null)".16:07
uniqueNamethunar-volman: Unsupported USB device type "usbhid".16:07
uniqueNamethunar-volman: Unsupported input device type "/dev/input/event14"."16:07
xrogaanplease use a pastebin if it's a huge amount of text :)16:07
uniqueNamenot huge, just four lines.16:07
uniqueNameI used to have it working back on Debian, don't know what versions that has.16:09
uniqueNamebut yeah. I have 0.2216:09
xrogaanand what does lsusb list?16:09
xrogaan> https://github.com/linuxwacom/input-wacom/wiki/Device-IDs16:10
xrogaandepending on your wacom device, you might need to update your kernel and build the wacom drivers from source.16:10
xrogaanthere are many intuos16:12
xrogaananother relevant wiki page: https://github.com/linuxwacom/input-wacom/wiki/Testing-Tablet-Detection16:12
xrogaanuniqueName: so here you go, you need to find out which tablet you have and which version of the library/driver you need :P16:14
xrogaana newer kernel might solve your issue though.16:15
xrogaanyou might want the backports16:15
xrogaanThere is no real reason to not use the backport kernel btw, unless you want a system that never changes because if a breakage occurs your company gets fined.16:16
xrogaanThe backport kernel is 4.19, so at the driver level you should be fine.16:17
uniqueNamelsusb lists it as "Bus 002 Device 005: ID 056a:0374 Wacom Co., Ltd"16:17
uniqueNameso to install a backport, what do I do?16:17
xrogaanyou have Intuos S16:18
xrogaanrequires at minimum version 4.10 of the kernel.16:18
uniqueNameOh16:18
uniqueNameAh.16:18
xrogaancreate a file under /etc/apt/source.list.d/backports with this inside: http://dpaste.com/1GM4P7516:19
uniqueNameI allready have those lines in my sources.list.16:19
uniqueNameHow do I find the kernel package name?16:21
uniqueNameapt search kernel?16:21
xrogaanaptitude search linux | grep ^i16:22
uniqueNameThanks!16:23
sxpertwrong window ;)16:23
uniqueNamebut that just turned up with a list of things I already have installed.16:23
xrogaanaptitude -t ascii-backports -R -s install firmware-linux linux-image-amd64 linux-perf util-linux16:24
xrogaan-s if for simulate16:24
xrogaan-R is without recommends.16:24
uniqueNamethat is a lot of packages.16:24
xrogaanit's to make sure everything gets updated16:24
xrogaanyou can start synaptic and look at each of those16:25
uniqueNamewhy not install the recommends?16:25
xrogaanyou can if you want16:25
xrogaanthat'll install apparmor.16:26
xrogaanas I said, -s will simulate the action, so nothing will be done16:26
uniqueNamewhy is apparmor bad/why don't I want it?16:26
xrogaanit's safer to check what is going to happen before it happens, right?16:26
xrogaanhttps://wiki.debian.org/AppArmor16:27
xrogaanIt's another set of headaches. I'd focus on getting your wacom working first.16:28
uniqueNameaha.16:28
uniqueNameThank you! just finished installing, will try restarting now. Bye!16:29
xrogaanfamous last words16:30
ham5urgIs there a repo where I canget rspamd?16:30
xrogaanI don't know what that is16:30
ham5urg[beowulf] rspamd-1.8.1-2+b2    [ceres] rspamd-1.8.1-2+b2    [jessie] rspamd-0.6.1016:31
ham5urgbut no deb-package of rspamd in ascii16:31
ham5urgis there a best practice how to install it in ascii?16:32
jonadabIs there an ascii-backports yet?16:33
xrogaanhave you thought about checking the rspamd.org website?16:33
xrogaan> Rspamd is also available in some versions of Debian and Ubuntu. However, we are looking for an active maintainer for rspamd in these ‘official’ repos, as now rspamd is terribly outdated there.16:33
xrogaanthere you go, no maintainer for debian.16:33
xrogaanjonadab: there is.16:33
jonadabProbably best to build from source then.16:33
jonadabIf the package is badly out of date.16:33
xrogaanoh a rspamd backport. Well if there is no maintainer then probably "no".16:34
jonadabI was thinking if it was in ceres, there might be a backport.16:34
jonadabBut yeah, that was before someone said the package has no Debian maintainer.16:34
xrogaanI need to correct myself, it's not rpsamd.org, but .com16:34
xrogaanWhy opensource software uses a .com is beyond me though.16:35
ham5urgman, this systemd-thing is killing me16:35
ham5urgi can't stand it any longer16:35
jonadab... why on earth do you have systemd?  The whole point of Devuan is to NOT have that.16:35
ham5urgI don't have it.16:36
ham5urgBut because of systemd there are only a few people left.16:36
xrogaanham5urg: alpine linux seems alright for servers.16:37
jonadabAh, the community being split, you mean.  I see.16:37
ham5urgYes16:37
jonadabI mean, there are probably more Devuan users today, than there were Linux users when I started using Linux.16:37
jonadab(I started with Debian 1.3.1.)16:38
ham5urgDivide et impera. Always the same. Call it Debian, call it Bitcoin, always the same mechanics applied.16:38
ham5urgA split here, another split there...16:38
jonadabThe problem is really that the split happened too late.16:39
xrogaanwhat do you mean?16:40
jonadabWe should have rebelled several years earlier, over pulseaudio.16:40
jonadabThen we would've been already established and ready to go when the systemd fiasco hit.16:40
uniqueNameIt woorksss!!!16:41
xrogaanI like pulseaudio though.16:41
* jonadab shudders in horror.16:41
xrogaanI don't have to spend days trying to figure out why my audio doesn't work anymore.16:41
jonadabWat?16:41
jonadabThat is exactly the opposite of true.16:41
xrogaanuniqueName: yay!16:41
KatolaZham5urg: have you tried installing the beowulf's version of rspamd?16:43
KatolaZjust get the .deb16:43
xrogaanrspamd have their own repositories for debian16:43
KatolaZxrogaan: there is no need16:44
xrogaan'Just saying.16:44
KatolaZjust get the .deb from beowulf/buster16:44
KatolaZand install it16:44
xrogaanhow do you get security updates though?16:44
KatolaZa quick look at the deps suggests that it might actually work on jessie as well16:44
KatolaZxrogaan: have you haved a look at the tracker page of rspamd?16:45
KatolaZhttps://tracker.debian.org/pkg/luajit16:45
KatolaZsorry16:45
KatolaZwrong one16:45
ham5urgI will try16:45
KatolaZhttps://tracker.debian.org/pkg/rspamd16:45
KatolaZthere have been three versions in the last two years16:46
KatolaZthere are only 4 bugs in the BTS16:46
xrogaanKatolaZ: meets rspamd's people warning16:46
KatolaZuh?16:46
xrogaanoh, you mean rspamd don't get new versions so often?16:47
KatolaZ...16:47
xrogaanI don't understand your point, sorry.16:48
KatolaZif a software is "terribly outdated" for a difference in the third digit of its version number, then I would probably consider using something else16:48
ham5urgWhere do I have to look? http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/beowulf/ ...?16:48
KatolaZham5urg: for what?16:48
ham5urgrspamd....deb16:49
KatolaZin a debian pool16:49
KatolaZhold on16:49
KatolaZhttp://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/r/rspamd/16:49
ham5urgthanks a ton16:49
KatolaZham5urg: it looks like 1.8.1-2+b2 is the latest available version16:50
xrogaanupstream is 1.8.316:50
KatolaZxrogaan: so?16:50
KatolaZhttps://www.cvedetails.com/product/39045/Rspamd-Project-Rspamd.html?vendor_id=1674716:51
xrogaanis the changelog only about debian things? https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/r/rspamd/changelog-1.8.1-216:52
xrogaand/rules and d/control16:52
KatolaZxrogaan: that's the Debian changelog16:52
ham5urgI've tried it with dpkg -i ... and apt-get --fix-broken ... but apt just deinstalls rspamd16:52
KatolaZham5urg: just look for which deps are missing16:52
xrogaanKatolaZ: yeah, that's the point.16:52
KatolaZxrogaan: the original changelog is normally under /usr/share/doc/PACKAGE/16:53
KatolaZxrogaan: then I don't see your point16:53
xrogaanno, I'm looking at the debian changelog16:53
ham5urgthere are version mismatches16:53
KatolaZok ham5urg16:54
xrogaanbecause debian backport fixes sometimes. But that's not happening here because there is apparently no maintainer16:54
ham5urglibssl1.1 (>= 1.1.1); is needed16:54
ham5urg1.1.0j-1~deb9u1 is installed16:54
KatolaZhttps://tracker.debian.org/pkg/rspamd16:54
xrogaanthus, is the changelog just about the debian build system?16:54
KatolaZxrogaan: ^^^ look there16:54
KatolaZthere is a maintainer16:54
KatolaZthey made the last upload 45 days ago...16:54
KatolaZo_O16:55
ham5urghttps://rspamd.com/apt-stable/pool/main/r/rspamd/16:56
ham5urgrspamd has its own repo16:56
xrogaanues17:08
xrogaanKatolaZ: the latest version of rspamd could be sent to unstable, what are your thoughts about that?17:08
KatolaZxrogaan: contact the maintainers17:12
_stephen_One month and 117GB later my debmirror command finished.  Per https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=7715#p7715 I now have a lot of data, but naively adding it to apache and doing an apt update I get some errors.  Most notably: E: Failed to fetch http://camel.devuan.org/merged/dists/ascii/main/Contents-amd64  404  Not Found17:40
_stephen_A find reveals no such file anywhere in the files I pulled.17:41
KatolaZ_stephen_: that's normal17:46
KatolaZthere are only the compressed versions of "Contents-arch:17:46
sxpertnow you need another month to uncompress everyting, and redo the debmirror to keep up to date ;-)17:47
_stephen_So how do I make it useable?17:47
KatolaZ_stephen_: is it unusable?17:47
_stephen_yup17:47
KatolaZapt will look for the uncompressed version anyway17:47
KatolaZas it does for Packages and Sources17:48
KatolaZif a mirror does not provide it, it will continue to look for the .gz or .xz17:48
_stephen_Maybe my directory hierarchy is wrong, as I can no longer apt search for stuff that's in the mirror.17:48
_stephen_or install17:48
KatolaZ_stephen_: what error do you see?17:48
KatolaZ(your "no longer" indicates you have made some changes?)17:49
_stephen_before apt update I could apt search packages, but that was before it had updated the package cache to use the local mirror17:50
KatolaZ_stephen_: then you most probably have a problem in your local mirror17:51
KatolaZhave you used debmirror?17:51
KatolaZor apt-mirror?17:51
_stephen_sorry, apt update takes a while to run...   looks like maybe it found some things?   https://pastebin.com/3rLu4E6n17:51
_stephen_I used debmirror per the link above.17:51
KatolaZ_stephen_: I hope you have used "--root=merged"17:53
_stephen_https://pastebin.com/Rsut2r3z17:53
_stephen_wait, that might not be right...    remoteroot merged in the config17:53
KatolaZthe stuff in that post donwloads only the packages which have been forked by devuan17:53
KatolaZIIRC17:53
KatolaZyou need remoteroor=merged17:53
KatolaZsorry17:53
KatolaZremoteroot=merged17:54
_stephen_yeah, I have $remoteroot="merged";17:54
_stephen_in the config: https://pastebin.com/Rsut2r3z17:54
KatolaZ_stephen_: you still need to have the correct set of rewrites17:55
KatolaZin your httpd server17:55
KatolaZas per devuan_mirror_walkthrough.txt17:55
KatolaZhttps://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan_mirror_walkthrough.txt17:55
_stephen_I did add some, bu tI'm not sure they are correct: https://pastebin.com/5QPz7LfN17:56
KatolaZman you shouldn't use a *.devuan.org FQDN17:56
KatolaZ...17:57
_stephen_The network is offline and I was going to use the default deb.devuan.org to avoid having to reconfigure all the clients manually.17:57
KatolaZok17:57
_stephen_That way some of the mobile hosts can move between the offline and real online.17:58
KatolaZstill, not a good habit to use FQDN you don't own17:58
KatolaZ_stephen_: but are you actually able to install packages from the mirror?17:59
_stephen_I haven't been able to find any packages that are on the mirror that my local package cache actually contains yet.17:59
KatolaZo_O18:00
KatolaZwhat is your "local package cache"?18:00
_stephen_apt search output18:01
_stephen_for example, I just noticed rsyslog does show up in an apt search .. but nothing wicd does... both have debs on the mirror.18:01
_stephen_using bc as my test case (had to uninstall it..)  I can apt search and I see bc, but I can't apt install it.18:04
_stephen_E: Package 'bc' has no installation candidate18:04
_stephen_Also note the nonsense I added for symlinks... I couldn't tell what should be at my root, so I created a merged symlink to .18:06
_stephen_Because I saw the http reference in apt sources, but my server root looks like this: dists pool project18:07
KatolaZ_stephen_: there is something odd18:07
KatolaZmost probably in the way you redirect stuff on the web server18:08
KatolaZoh18:08
KatolaZbut you are redirecting to /devuan/pool18:08
KatolaZand to /debian/pool18:08
KatolaZyou must have those folders in your document root18:09
_stephen_Oh, yeah, that's not right...18:09
KatolaZyup18:10
_stephen_I've never written rewrite rules before. I blindly copied them from the txt file...18:11
_stephen_The left is the thing to match, those right sides don't exist.18:11
_stephen_THe left side actually does, though... should I just rip those out?18:12
_stephen_I dont see why I would want rewrite rules to rewrite from paths that do exist to ones that dont...18:12
_stephen_Also, I didn't mirror anything from security, so that one doesn't exist, but the other two do.18:13
specing_stephen_: why are you doing such a mirror?18:14
_stephen_To provide packages to an offline network.18:14
specingWhy not a lightweight caching proxy instead?18:14
_stephen_because of the offline part18:14
specingSo the server is offline too?18:14
_stephen_Yeah18:14
specingstrange setup18:15
_stephen_No arguments there.18:16
specingwhat is this, some military thing where all stuff has to be disconnected from the internet?18:17
_stephen_nope, just stupid work rules18:18
specingthey are probably stupid for a reason18:18
_stephen_I sure hope so.18:18
specingbecause I'd think not having internet access would make employee performance worse18:18
KatolaZ_stephen_: you need to go through the devuan_mirror_walkthrough.txt18:22
KatolaZand understand how a devuan mirror works first18:22
KatolaZdevuan mirrors make heavy use of rewrites18:22
KatolaZyou need to get it before configuring your web server18:22
KatolaZdevuan_mirror_walkthrough.txt contains these explanations18:23
KatolaZplease go through the doc, and feel free to shout if there is anything you need help with18:23
_stephen_That covers rsync, I had started from the forum saying debmirror...18:23
_stephen_Is there some way I can follow the walkthrough and not have to redownload?18:24
KatolaZ_stephen_: please read the walkthrough18:25
KatolaZyou don't have to re-download18:25
_stephen_I have/am/and will continue to do so.18:25
KatolaZjust to understand how a devuan mirror works18:25
_stephen_Thanks for the pointers.18:25
KatolaZ_stephen_: especially Section 4 and Section 518:26
KatolaZyou can skip most of the rest18:26
ughAnyone here willing and patient enough to help a newbie at the moment?19:16
debdogugh: usually one gets best results by just stating the issue having19:20
ughevery attempt to install nvidia drivers so far hasnt worked19:20
ughand from the only source ive found, im not advised to read the "official" instructions to install any drivers because its outdated19:21
ughand apparently "not to install/run anything specifically for debian"19:21
ughso i have no clue what to do19:21
debdogsorry, don't have that sort of hardware. just stick around19:21
specingugh: use built-in drivers - nouveau19:27
ughit installed nouveau for my amd apu already, and its outdated19:28
ughi at least want good drivers for my main gpu19:28
specingnouveau is for nvidia gpus, not amd gpus19:29
specingWhat do you mean by outdated?19:29
specingIs it not stable?19:29
ughsorry i meant "mesa". only steam allows me to see exactly what i have installed, the apps that came with my distro dont work19:29
ughand the screenfetch thing isnt reporting the right os19:29
ughbut its outdated as in the openGL is old and the version itself is way behind19:29
ughi think im just gonna get manjaro though, trying to find support for devuan ate my whole morning as it is. thanks anyway19:30
debdogphew, ditched a bullet there19:31
shift-i wonder how good nvidia support is under manjaro19:33
shift-one would think they mostly focus on stuff like ubuntu lts or centos primarily19:33
debdogback when I've had an nvidia card I just installed the binary from their site. but that came with its own culprits19:35
ham5urgbuy a vega card and be happy19:47
ham5urgNvidia is like systemd. A pain in the ass.19:47
sixwheeledbeast^19:48
sixwheeledbeastSome are on sale due to VII19:48
jonadabAm I the only one who still pines for Matrox graphics cards?19:49
ham5urgNo19:49
ham5urgMy HP pizza-box does have one19:49
ham5urga g20019:50
jonadabI had a Matrox Mystique back in the day that was great.19:50
jonadabLater upgraded to a Matrox Millennium.19:50
* jonadab has this weird tendency to lump anything involving 3D acceleration under the general heading of "unstable gamer c$@!". 19:51
debdogwhat's vega?19:52
jonadabVega is one of the brightest stars in the summer sky, IIRC.19:52
debdogoh, AMD vega. I thought it was a manufacturer19:54
KatolaZvega is Alpha Lyrae19:54
KatolaZ;)19:54
KatolaZit will be the next polaris19:54
debdoghehe19:55
KatolaZoh sorry19:55
KatolaZit used to be the polaris19:55
KatolaZabout 15000 years ago19:55
fsmithredI remember that. We all got lost when it changed.19:55
specingham5urg | buy a vega card and be happy19:55
KatolaZoh I was actually right19:55
specingbuy a 10 year old thinkpad with intel igpu and be happy19:55
KatolaZdue to precession, it will be the polaris again in about 12000 years19:55
jonadabEverything old is new again.19:56
jonadabEven hoop skirts and disco will come back eventually.19:56
ham5urgVega64 is brand new, specing19:57
jonadab(Probably not at the same time.)19:57
veryimportantperhi guys19:58
veryimportantpervery important person here19:58
specingham5urg: Is it possible yet to run radeon without proprietary firmware?19:58
ham5urgamdgpu is the kernel driver for new vega cards19:59
ham5urgnot all cards are equal supported19:59
MinceRvery important person no longer here19:59
shibbolethamdgpu supports sea/southern islands an later20:00
shift-must have changed his mind20:00
shift-what a shame20:00
ham5urgspecing : https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/AMDGPU#Feature_support20:01
rwpI think the issue of binary blobs is different from proprietary drivers.  And I don't believe the firmware is any different from the card itself.20:07
rwpIf you are willing to use the hardware without being able to rewire it then why is using the firmware without being able to reprogram it any different?20:07
rwpHowever the firmware is OS independent, a part of the hardware.  That is completely different from a device requiring proprietary drivers.20:07
specingham5urg: yes, but does it require proprietary firmware?20:10
specingrwp: because you cannot rewire an ASIC20:10
specingbut you can change the firmware20:10
rwpHow is one different from the other?20:11
specingrwp: Have you read what I just said?20:12
rwpHow would you feel if the firmware were burned into a ROM and soldered onto the card?20:12
rwpI read what you wrote. I did not understand it however.20:12
specingyou CAN modify the firmware, but you CANNOT modify the ASIC20:13
ham5urgspecing, I'm unsure but I guess rwp is right. The firmware for AMDGPU supported GPUs is OS independent. But never did a Win Installation.20:13
ham5urgit just works so I never got deeper into it.20:14
rwpYou *CAN* modify an ASIC.  But the result unless extremely skilled will be a broken device.  The exact same result from modifying firmware without the exact same skill.20:14
shift-i think there's a considerable gap20:14
shift-excluding blobs is a really dumb decision though20:14
specingrwp: you can, with millions of dollars worth of equipment and the modifications will be very limited in scope20:15
shift-i mean, your bootup firmware is probably proprietary too20:15
* rwp has modified ASICs before in my past career as a VLSI designer. Microprobing takes a steady hand. Just saying...20:15
shift-and you _can_ change it20:16
specingrwp: hence the "can" is only in theory. In practice it is impossible20:16
rwpRight.  That was my implication.20:16
shift-i just mean i never saw the point20:16
specingrwp: so now that we've established that it is practically impossible, do you see the difference?20:16
rwpIn theory you can modify the firmware.  But in practice I can tell you that working on the design team we only modified those with extreme care.20:16
specingshift-: my bootup firmware is not proprietary, it is coreboot + GRUB20:17
specingshift-: Libreboot, to be more exact20:17
rwpBIOS is completely different from device firmware.20:17
ham5urgspecing: which hardware?20:17
specingham5urg: T40020:17
rwpI am sure that LibreBoot and CoreBoot are the free(dom) BIOS replacements talking about here.20:18
ham5urgspecing, quite old hardware20:18
rwpMost ASICs today are constructed using automated place and route tools.  And every re-build run is literally a random result because statistical modeling is so often done.20:19
ham5urgis there any new stuff out there to install it's own BIOS20:19
ham5urg?20:19
specingham5urg: that is how far back you have to go to obtain some computing freedom20:20
rwpWhen things are getting close to release we don't like to do a complete turn.  Sometimes bugs are found and we figure out how to fix them by tweaking something in order to avoid rebuilding the blob.  Just make the smallest change possible because we don't have time to run through the months of QA and testing.20:20
specingham5urg: Talos workstation20:20
specingham5urg: ^ in production now20:20
ham5urg14nm power9 CPUs20:21
rwpI think that when people think they want to tweak around on the firmware for these devices that they don't know what they don't know and definitely do not know how difficult it is to pull off changes there.20:21
ham5urgspecing, any knowledge about this CPU?20:21
rwpAnd then even the FSF find that a ROM soldered onto the board containing the firmware is perfectly fine.20:21
ham5urgis it good?20:21
specingham5urg: it is higher tier than amd/intel20:21
specingham5urg: IBM big iron20:22
ham5urgI'm unsure if a 14nm can beat 7nm.20:22
ham5urgespiecially if used simd instructions20:22
specingham5urg: it has free boot firmware and free microcode and free firmware for additional coprocessors, beat THAT!20:23
ham5urgHehehe20:23
ham5urgDid you bought from your own pocket? 5 grands, man.20:24
sxpertspecing: free rtl for the processor ?20:26
specingsxpert: nope20:26
sxpertfree process for the chip manufacturing ?20:27
specingsxpert: but if you have enough money, then you can license it from the openpower foundation20:27
specingham5urg: the cheapest machine starts at 1.4k iirc20:27
specingsxpert: why are you asking this? Do you think intel/amd provide it?20:28
specingRight now IBM is really pushing the boundaries in open computing20:28
specingAND their processors are highly competitive with x86 offerings20:29
sxpertnope, but we have riscV and LibreSilicon coming up ;)20:31
golinuxspecing: You should know by now that OT belongs in #debianfork20:32
golinuxThis is a Devuan support channel20:32
specingsxpert: RISC-V went all the way to nvidia cards, very nice indeed20:33
specinggolinux: nobody is asking devuan questions so ...20:33
golinux<specing> golinux: nobody is asking devuan questions so ...21:16
golinuxExactly.  Please move it to #debianfork when that happens.21:17
josuahSo in the end, installing devuan for a test in one of our servers worked out pretty good!21:49
josuahalthough, CTO said "haha, good!  You,re not seriously pushing it in production though?"21:50
josuahso I said "noooo, I'm not of course (*mumble mumble too bad mumble*)!"21:50
xrogaanwhat does he know?21:56
xrogaanor she21:56
josuahxrogaan: he knows he has very few time to sleep and that even s/debian/devuan/g would be too much for this day.22:02
josuahbut he also reacted like "ah, here is the debian we knew! where did it went all this time?"22:03
josuahs/went/go/22:03
golinuxIt went down a rabbit hole to a very twisted place.22:12
josuahtrapp  asdf22:13
josuahsorry, brozen ssh session22:14
josuahfrozen*22:14
josuahyes twisted place. twisted place.22:14
xrogaanyou should tell him to subscribe to red hat.22:14
xrogaan'cause that's what debian is becoming.22:14
xrogaanmaybe that'll be enough to trigger a strong rejection and embrace devuan :P22:15
josuahhow to make someone love spinaches?  fill him with chocolate all day22:17
josuahcheap fat chocolate without taste and a lot of suggar22:17
josuahjava chocolate with salty.exe grains22:18

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