| eyalroz | Hello all. Running beowulf (with user dir created in ascii), evince is giving me a lot of the following errors: | 16:58 |
|---|---|---|
| eyalroz | unable to create file '/home/my_user_name_here/.cache/dconf/user': Permission denied. dconf will not work properly. | 16:58 |
| eyalroz | But the permissions both for the file and the directory seem to be fine (a bit on the stingy side, i.e. owner-only). Why am I getting this? | 16:58 |
| gnarface | not sure but it could be an issue with the old config for the program | 17:00 |
| gnarface | eyalroz: | 17:01 |
| drawkula | directory dconf is 700 here and the file inside is 644 | 17:01 |
| gnarface | oh sorry i didn't read carefully enough, it actually says permission denied... | 17:01 |
| gnarface | weird | 17:01 |
| drawkula | minimal ascii install, upgraded to beowulf, then added xfce and more | 17:01 |
| drawkula | so dconf came from beowulf, not via ascii | 17:02 |
| eyalroz | drawkula: For me, it's 700 and 600 | 17:02 |
| xinomilo | file here is 600 , dir 755, same install w/ mate | 17:02 |
| eyalroz | Oh, btw, I use Cinnamon | 17:03 |
| fsmithred | I have 755 on dir and 644 on file | 17:03 |
| drawkula | what a diversity... | 17:04 |
| fsmithred | xfce here, and no evince | 17:04 |
| eyalroz | by the way... it's not that evince doesn't work | 17:05 |
| eyalroz | it just fills the console with dconf errors | 17:05 |
| drawkula | lots of chars to recycle... \o/ | 17:06 |
| eyalroz | I also get: | 17:06 |
| eyalroz | Attempting to store changes into '/home/my_user_name/.local/share/recently-used.xbel', but failed: Failed to create file “/home/my_user_name/.local/share/recently-used.xbel.2SYC3Z | 17:06 |
| eyalroz | ”: Permission denied | 17:07 |
| eyalroz | And /home/eyalroz/.local/share/ is 755 | 17:07 |
| eyalroz | Do I actually need those folders to be world-writable? That doesn't seem right. | 17:07 |
| fsmithred | How the hell do you save a file in evince these days??? | 17:08 |
| fsmithred | My .local/share is 700 | 17:09 |
| fsmithred | and so are about half the directories inside it | 17:09 |
| drawkula | touch ~/xyzzy | 17:11 |
| drawkula | is your home readonly? | 17:11 |
| fsmithred | ok, I figured out how to save a file. It works here and dconf/user got updated. | 17:12 |
| eyalroz | drawkula: Are you asking me? | 17:13 |
| drawkula | yes | 17:13 |
| eyalroz | My home dir is not read only, and xyzzy has permissions 0644 | 17:13 |
| drawkula | ok | 17:13 |
| drawkula | then I'm out of ideas | 17:14 |
| eyalroz | is it possible that evince or some dconf-related process changes its uid ? | 17:14 |
| fsmithred | create a new user and test. That will narrow down the problem. | 17:21 |
| eyalroz | fsmithred: Somehow useradd is not populating my new user's home directory... | 17:26 |
| fsmithred | adduser phred | 17:30 |
| drawkula | useradd ... -m ... | 17:30 |
| drawkula | but manually copying /etc/skel contents should do too | 17:31 |
| eyalroz | drawkula: Yes, thanks | 17:31 |
| eyalroz | fsmithred: http://paste.debian.net/1088497/ | 17:31 |
| eyalroz | I ran evince from a terminal this time | 17:31 |
| eyalroz | (although was using an X session opened for my original user) | 17:32 |
| eyalroz | I meant, ran it from one of the Alt+Fn virtual terminals | 17:32 |
| eyalroz | It seems there's some kind of apparmor policy in play here. | 17:33 |
| fsmithred | eyalroz, did you know you're using apparmor? | 17:39 |
| fsmithred | my point is: do you need it? | 17:39 |
| eyalroz | fsmithred: Nope, had no idea. | 17:39 |
| eyalroz | Don't remember ever enabling it | 17:40 |
| fsmithred | dpkg -l |grep apparmor | 17:40 |
| fsmithred | aptitude why apparmor | 17:40 |
| fsmithred | all I have is one library | 17:40 |
| eyalroz | fsmithred: First I'll apt-get install aptitutde ... | 17:40 |
| eyalroz | i linux-image-amd64 Depends linux-image-4.19.0-5-amd64 | 17:41 |
| eyalroz | i A linux-image-4.19.0-5-amd64 Recommends apparmor | 17:41 |
| eyalroz | The kernel wants this? :-O | 17:41 |
| fsmithred | oh, I turn off Recommends | 17:41 |
| eyalroz | fsmithred: But it's on by default, right? | 17:42 |
| fsmithred | yeah | 17:42 |
| eyalroz | Well, let's see what happens when I remove apparmor | 17:42 |
| fsmithred | apt-get --no-install-recommends install blah | 17:42 |
| fsmithred | or set it in /etc/apt.conf.d/ | 17:42 |
| fsmithred | that's /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ | 17:43 |
| eyalroz | I like recommendations... | 17:43 |
| eyalroz | except for this one | 17:43 |
| fsmithred | lol | 17:43 |
| eyalroz | But apparmor - is it a daemon? a kernel module? | 17:43 |
| fsmithred | it's nice to review them before they get installed. You might want some but not others. | 17:43 |
| eyalroz | I'll go along with the herd | 17:43 |
| fsmithred | if it's a daemon, there should be /etc/init.d/apparmor or something like that | 17:44 |
| fsmithred | if you're going to keep it, you'll need to adjust it so it will let you do what you want. | 17:44 |
| fsmithred | I've never used it and know nothing about it. | 17:44 |
| eyalroz | No, I'm removing it | 17:44 |
| eyalroz | but | 17:44 |
| eyalroz | it doesn't quite die | 17:45 |
| eyalroz | I still get apparmor messages after having removed it | 17:45 |
| fsmithred | ps ax |grep apparmor | 17:45 |
| eyalroz | nothing. | 17:46 |
| fsmithred | maybe you need to log out and in? | 17:46 |
| eyalroz | fsmithred: Restarting the x server maybe. | 17:47 |
| * eyalroz will leave for a short while... | 17:47 | |
| fsmithred | or even 'init 1' | 17:47 |
| eyalroz | fuck it, I'll just reboot | 17:48 |
| eyalroz | fsmithred: So now, the apparmor errors are gone, but I get: | 17:52 |
| eyalroz | (evince:3560): dbind-WARNING **: 18:52:27.419: Couldn't register with accessibility bus: Did not receive a reply. Possible causes include: the remote application did not send a reply, the message bus security policy blocked the reply, the reply timeout expired, or the network connection was broken. | 17:52 |
| fsmithred | I'm finding bug reports for that message | 18:00 |
| fsmithred | but I can't tell which one applies here. Some are old. | 18:01 |
| fsmithred | These two recommendations keep coming up: | 18:04 |
| fsmithred | 1. if the app works and the message isn't too scary, ignore it | 18:04 |
| fsmithred | 2. Put the following in /etc/environment | 18:05 |
| fsmithred | export NO_AT_BRIDGE=1 | 18:05 |
| fsmithred | eyalroz, I just reproduced your error | 18:10 |
| fsmithred | first time I installed evince, I didn't reboot | 18:10 |
| fsmithred | I installed it again and rebooted, and I can't save a file | 18:11 |
| eyalroz | fsmithred: Interesting. | 18:11 |
| eyalroz | fsmithred: Can I help pinpoint the relevant bug report? | 18:11 |
| fsmithred | edit /etc/default/dbus and comment out IDTYPE="RANDOM" | 18:12 |
| fsmithred | and then reboot. Or if you want, I'll test that first. | 18:12 |
| fsmithred | ok, that's not enough | 18:14 |
| fsmithred | sorry, I don't think I reproduced the same error. It wouldn't let me save the file because I was trying to save it in its original location, which was in /usr/share/cups | 18:22 |
| fsmithred | didn't notice that evince did not try to use my home dir | 18:23 |
| fsmithred | so maybe there's a working directory setting in evince | 18:23 |
| eyalroz | fsmithred: Regardless - without apparmor I'm getting a different error, not about permissions; | 18:24 |
| eyalroz | although it is significant (for other people) to figure out why that error occurs with apparmor installed | 18:24 |
| fsmithred | you're right. I would just chalk it up to "it's gnome" and forget about it. | 18:27 |
| fsmithred | Can I interest you in a different pdf reader? Atril is from mate, and it's more like evince used to be. | 18:28 |
| golinux | I was going to start trashing evince but just didn't have the strength to go there again. | 18:38 |
| golinux | I dumped it years ago because it sucks. | 18:38 |
| golinux | Atril is the evince that used to be. | 18:40 |
| nemo | didn't even realise evince was still a thing, but then, have been on MATE for a long time | 18:44 |
| nemo | I did give gnome3 an honest try for 3 months | 18:44 |
| nemo | the shift from windows 7 to windows 10 was pretty painful for me at work. I mostly resort to using win+x a lot | 18:45 |
| nemo | at least the desktop is default once more | 18:45 |
| Evilham | super+x is pretty much the only way to get to things indeed. but that's OT here :-p | 18:46 |
| nemo | so glad I'm not the only one | 18:47 |
| nemo | Evilham: well the parallel of breaking everything to "help" users is striking | 18:47 |
| nemo | at least microsoft had the excuse that they were hoping to break into mobile | 18:48 |
| nemo | which is no longer a hope for them, so you'd think they'd rethink some of the tile stuff | 18:48 |
| nemo | if gnome3 was built around dreams of mobile integration they might want to rethink that | 18:48 |
| nemo | esp after death of ubuntu's efforts | 18:48 |
| Evilham | yeah well, I generally dislike $thing bashing, i fone doens't like something, one tries hard not to use it | 18:48 |
| nemo | Evilham: in microsoft world avoiding it is impossible | 18:49 |
| nemo | Evilham: my poor grandfather is gonna have a rough time when Win7 is EOL'd after decades of windows use | 18:49 |
| Evilham | why I said "one tries" :-p I am aware it's not always possible | 18:49 |
| nemo | Evilham: I'm half considering just shifting him to ubuntu which he has some practice with as a dual boot | 18:49 |
| nemo | aaand maybe a windows 7 VM that's locked down in virtualbox | 18:49 |
| nemo | Evilham: s/ubuntu/devuan/ I'm not sure why I said that | 18:51 |
| nemo | I mean FFS his current laptop is a devuan dual boot, he just rarely uses the linux side ☺ | 18:51 |
| nemo | years of habit I guess | 18:51 |
| _abc_ | Hi. Is it possible, in theory, to directly upgrade a machine from say stretch to ascii? If so, please link me to a step by step howto. | 20:09 |
| furrywolf | I'd imagine it's theoretically possible that if you changed your sources.list, did an update, then an apt-get dist-upgrade, it might not break too horribly... | 20:14 |
| fsmithred | _abc_, I did it when ascii was beta or rc | 20:14 |
| fsmithred | and it was the easiest upgrade of all | 20:14 |
| _abc_ | fsmithred: good news. So just set the sources etc and fire? | 20:15 |
| fsmithred | um, not quite | 20:15 |
| fsmithred | install sysvinit-core (I think that's the right one) | 20:15 |
| fsmithred | then reboot | 20:15 |
| fsmithred | then change sources and upgrade | 20:15 |
| fsmithred | although I believe others have upgraded first and then switched to sysvinit. | 20:16 |
| _abc_ | Hmm? I have to look what is on that machine exactlty. Could be what was "new" before stretch | 20:16 |
| golinux | _abc_: https://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/ | 20:16 |
| fsmithred | if it hasn't been upgraded in a long time, there will be a lot of upgrades | 20:16 |
| fsmithred | but it should still work | 20:16 |
| _abc_ | I think it is wheezy, not stretch! | 20:16 |
| fsmithred | omg, upgrade to jessie before July 6 | 20:17 |
| _abc_ | Can one hope for a painless jump from wheezy to ascii? Or is that jumping too far | 20:17 |
| golinux | Then you should probably go through jessie | 20:17 |
| eyalroz | fsmithred: Well, I kind of hate evince's UI, because it's Gnome, which I still can't believe nobody has been stoned to to death for... | 20:17 |
| golinux | You can keep the pieces. | 20:17 |
| eyalroz | (I was talking about an alternative PDF reader) | 20:17 |
| eyalroz | I'll try atril | 20:17 |
| golinux | Atril ftw | 20:17 |
| fsmithred | yeah, that one is sane | 20:17 |
| _abc_ | golinux: Jessie scrolled out of normal public repos, no? | 20:18 |
| _abc_ | Have to use archives? | 20:18 |
| fsmithred | no, there's still jessie | 20:18 |
| golinux | I'm still using jessie and getting security updates | 20:18 |
| eyalroz | fsmithred: But it seems to have the same problem... | 20:18 |
| eyalroz | (atril:10131): dbind-WARNING **: 21:18:26.610: Couldn't register with accessibility bus: Did not receive a reply. Possible causes include: the remote application did not send a reply, the message bus security policy blocked the reply, the reply timeout expired, or the network connection was broken. | 20:18 |
| furrywolf | is evince the one I tried that doesn't work with icewm? I don't remember. heh. | 20:18 |
| _abc_ | Ok, good to know. | 20:18 |
| fsmithred | jessie-updates is gone | 20:18 |
| _abc_ | Any horrors updating from wheezy to jessie on amd64 known? | 20:19 |
| fsmithred | _abc_, I think it's just minor horrors | 20:19 |
| fsmithred | don't remember exactly | 20:19 |
| furrywolf | upgrading from wheezy to anything can involve horrors, with adding multi-arch and stuff... but I don't recall any non-fixable breakage. | 20:19 |
| golinux | Read the link that has documentation | 20:19 |
| _abc_ | Ok. This is a headless machine normally, I hope my KVM still works in case I need it | 20:20 |
| furrywolf | expect about 100% of your packages to be upgraded. heh. | 20:20 |
| fsmithred | yeah, dev1fanboy documented it all | 20:20 |
| _abc_ | Hm? What link? I missed it? | 20:20 |
| furrywolf | why go through jessie instead of ascii? | 20:20 |
| _abc_ | ok I see it | 20:20 |
| _abc_ | fsmithred: what furrywolf asked? Relevant? | 20:21 |
| fsmithred | wheezy to jessie transition of dependencies has been tested | 20:21 |
| golinux | https://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/ | 20:21 |
| _abc_ | golinux: yes I found it in the backlog, thanks | 20:21 |
| golinux | It's all in there | 20:21 |
| * golinux goes back to the kitchen | 20:21 | |
| furrywolf | when you do the apt-get dist-upgrade, pay close attention to what it wants to do... if it shows it doing stupid things, like removing stuff you either want and/or won't have a functional box without, abort and manually upgrade those things (just apt-get install whatever, and it'll get the newer version) then dist-upgrade again. | 20:21 |
| _abc_ | furrywolf: is one not advised to 1st upgrade everything? | 20:22 |
| fsmithred | try everything first | 20:23 |
| fsmithred | it's also possible you'll need to run dist-upgrade a couple of times | 20:23 |
| furrywolf | if the dist-upgrade looks sane, then just let it run. but occasionally it does non-sane things. | 20:23 |
| _abc_ | I am not sure I have the stamina to watch it doing things. | 20:23 |
| fsmithred | lol | 20:23 |
| fsmithred | it'll be ok | 20:24 |
| furrywolf | apt occasionally does non-sane things in general... like last week when I tried upgrading wine to the backports version and it wanted to remove >2GB of packages to do it.... | 20:24 |
| fsmithred | you can walk away from it while it's running | 20:24 |
| _abc_ | I'll get a snapshot of the important bits I have on there, imaged, and then run it and if it fails I'll do a fresh install. | 20:24 |
| furrywolf | no, you don't have to watch it. just when it says what will be installed, upgraded, or removed, look at the lists to make sure it's not doing anything stupid, like removing everything. | 20:24 |
| _abc_ | fsmithred: how ? ^C? | 20:24 |
| furrywolf | if it's doing something stupid, answer no. | 20:24 |
| _abc_ | Ah ok. And then? It skips that step? | 20:25 |
| fsmithred | walk away one foot in front of the other | 20:25 |
| _abc_ | I think I did something like this 2 years ago, once. | 20:25 |
| fsmithred | download, unpack and configure can take some time | 20:25 |
| furrywolf | then it does nothing, and you can try manually upgrading things that it was being stupid about. | 20:25 |
| furrywolf | do you have a ssd or a hdd? | 20:25 |
| _abc_ | Wow sounds like I better install slackware :) hdd and it is old. But I have time. The problem is the din. amd64 boxes are not delicate about fans and so on. | 20:26 |
| furrywolf | if you have a hdd, the walk away step takes about ten times longer. :) | 20:26 |
| _abc_ | I should buy a ssd finally. I assume it is much faster. | 20:26 |
| furrywolf | I couldn't believe how much faster apt worked once I got a ssd. | 20:26 |
| fsmithred | you're doing this over ssh? | 20:26 |
| _abc_ | I think the people who wrote apt "think" in terms of Visual Basic 9th grade kid efficiency. I have no other explanation for it's sloth. | 20:27 |
| nemo | I have a 4 terabyte HDD | 20:27 |
| _abc_ | fsmithred: Assuming I can squeeze in a $30 new 120GB ssd and image the partition onto it before starting. | 20:27 |
| nemo | I don't see any purpose in an SSD | 20:27 |
| _abc_ | nemo: speed | 20:27 |
| nemo | in terms of lifespan they are roughly equivalent - esp for the always-up model | 20:27 |
| _abc_ | nemo: for when script kiddies code important things like apt | 20:28 |
| fsmithred | I got a 240GB laptop ssd for $30 | 20:28 |
| furrywolf | much, much, much faster. this is a purpose. | 20:28 |
| nemo | _abc_: boot speed is irrelevant. application launch rarely matters. since most apps I routinely launch are cached in ram anyway | 20:28 |
| _abc_ | We are in backwaters here, a low end Kingston 120GB sata ssd is about $30 | 20:28 |
| fsmithred | newegg | 20:28 |
| fsmithred | or maybe you can't get there | 20:29 |
| nemo | the 4 terabyte HDD cost me $100 | 20:29 |
| nemo | I'm sure solid state will beat HDs soon, but, eh, I'm in no rush | 20:29 |
| _abc_ | fsmithred: I can but it's a hassle. The Kingston is in a walk in shop about 15 minutes walking away. | 20:29 |
| furrywolf | it's not just launch speed... it's everything. programs are always creating temp files and such, and everything is amazingly stupidly faster with a ssd. | 20:29 |
| fsmithred | anyway, if it's headless, and it fails and you can't get in, you can boot a refracta iso and ssh in as user. | 20:29 |
| nemo | I have an SSD on the laptop and I don't notice any difference in speed | 20:29 |
| nemo | furrywolf: temp files and such in linux are usually created in /tmp | 20:29 |
| nemo | which is rambacked by default | 20:29 |
| nemo | furrywolf: I really don't notice any difference | 20:29 |
| nemo | maybe windows it matters more | 20:30 |
| _abc_ | fsmithred: yes, that is the plan. I am just worried I'll have to reinstall and license all the crap I have on there frozen about 2 years ago. | 20:30 |
| furrywolf | nemo: you can argue theory all you want, but in reality, every box I've stuck a ssd in has immediately been much faster in every normal-use-case way. | 20:30 |
| nemo | furrywolf: I do have 16 gigs of ram on the machine, but that's nothing special by today's standards | 20:30 |
| nemo | furrywolf: heh. I'm not arguing theory. I'm arguing reality of my two machines here and how I use them | 20:30 |
| furrywolf | firefox creates a billion or so tiny cache files, all of which it loads faster every time you load a web page. etc. | 20:30 |
| furrywolf | every program that uses sqlite for data functions much faster | 20:31 |
| furrywolf | etc etc | 20:31 |
| fsmithred | license? crap? If you have outside programs installed, are you sure they'll work after the upgrade? Or will they be upgraded, too? | 20:31 |
| _abc_ | furrywolf: we know you are right, nemo is hanging on to tradition. In reality, with good management, one could have both a spinning hdd and a ssd in the same machine. Which is what I will have when I get a ssd/ if I get it. | 20:31 |
| _abc_ | fsmithred: they are not so dependent on the version, fpga tools, vivado, eclipse, mplab x and so on | 20:31 |
| _abc_ | netbeans ide . I wonder what I keep that one around for now. | 20:32 |
| nemo | furrywolf: if your sqlite file is frequently accessed it will be cached too | 20:32 |
| furrywolf | nothing that needs a license is included in the debian repos. none of that will be touched. | 20:32 |
| nemo | furrywolf: I currently have 10½ gigs of cached files apparently | 20:32 |
| nemo | my firefox profile is tiny compared to that | 20:32 |
| _abc_ | furrywolf: the problem is the licensed tools look at the os for clues on whether they're still on the machine they are intended to be on | 20:32 |
| fsmithred | I have the new ssd in a box along with an old spinning drive and the difference is dramatic. But I don't think it would be much different from the sata III spinner that's in the laptop. | 20:32 |
| nemo | furrywolf: in terms of firefox disc cache, yes, that will be faster, ofc we're comparing to network fetches by default | 20:32 |
| nemo | aaaand it will be ram cached too | 20:33 |
| _abc_ | fsmithred: difference measured how? Real life read write or benchmark or... | 20:33 |
| furrywolf | sqlite by default insists on flushing everything before the calls return. | 20:33 |
| nemo | _abc_: I wouldn't hang on to tradition if SSD wasn't so stupid-expensive ☺ | 20:33 |
| _abc_ | F.ex. a compilation or the kernel, would it go faster? fsmithred | 20:33 |
| _abc_ | nemo: low end ssd is now cheaper than low end spinning drives | 20:34 |
| nemo | _abc_: I could certainly do SSD + HD - might do that for next machine | 20:34 |
| fsmithred | difference measured by perception. I'd need to look at my watch to compare the two laptop drives. | 20:34 |
| nemo | _abc_: move all the giant files onto the HD | 20:34 |
| furrywolf | sqlite won't tell the caller that an insert/etc is done until it's on physical media. | 20:34 |
| nemo | _abc_: on current machine there is no place for it. in part due to a stunningly stupid motherboard fail | 20:34 |
| fsmithred | don't need any timer to notice the difference between the old drive and the new ssd. | 20:34 |
| nemo | I reboot desktop maybe once every few months. it might be more noticeable on laptop, although I don't reboot that one very often either | 20:35 |
| nemo | it is pretty annoying though that I'm already at 90% usage of my laptop HD ☹ | 20:35 |
| nemo | and this is after deleting a ton of stuff | 20:35 |
| nemo | /dev/sda1 219G 186G 21G 90% / | 20:35 |
| nemo | ↑ laptop SSD | 20:36 |
| nemo | /dev/sdb3 3.6T 2.0T 1.5T 58% / | 20:36 |
| furrywolf | that's a lot of porn. | 20:36 |
| nemo | ↑ desktop HD | 20:36 |
| nemo | furrywolf: heh. laptop is a work computer. no porn | 20:36 |
| nemo | furrywolf: they can take it and image it at any time, setting aside their network monitoring | 20:36 |
| nemo | it's mostly a ton of development files and images and libraries | 20:36 |
| nemo | images as in VMs | 20:36 |
| nemo | VMs for testing windows and android... | 20:37 |
| _abc_ | nemo: what's the hdparam -tT reported speed on that 4T drive? | 20:38 |
| nemo | gonna guess you meant to say hdparm... | 20:42 |
| nemo | Timing cached reads: 7600 MB in 2.00 seconds = 3802.85 MB/sec | 20:43 |
| nemo | Timing buffered disk reads: 346 MB in 3.01 seconds = 114.79 MB/sec | 20:43 |
| nemo | by comparison the work SSD is... | 20:43 |
| nemo | Timing cached reads: 12336 MB in 2.00 seconds = 6179.56 MB/sec | 20:43 |
| nemo | Timing buffered disk reads: 1490 MB in 3.00 seconds = 496.09 MB/sec | 20:43 |
| nemo | overall... not significant enough to make a difference most of the time. even in the scenarios he mentioned | 20:44 |
| furrywolf | do a random 4k read test. | 20:44 |
| furrywolf | the difference is like 1000 times. | 20:45 |
| furrywolf | and is much more represntative of normal application usage | 20:45 |
| nemo | why would random be more representative of normal? | 20:45 |
| nemo | trying hard to imagine what app would have a usage case like that | 20:45 |
| nemo | not to mention, again, small recently accessed files are far more likely to be cached in ram, even on first write. | 20:46 |
| furrywolf | firefox does exactly that. | 20:46 |
| _abc_ | In the sense of https://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/general-information -- what is an "embedded" .xz image? I think I never saw one. Or did and did not pay attention? Where would such an embedded image be found? | 20:46 |
| furrywolf | thousands of few-kb files randomly loaded | 20:46 |
| nemo | only 1000 out of the 11000 files in my firefox cache were loaded today. and I did a LOT of browsing | 20:47 |
| nemo | total size, 100MB | 20:47 |
| nemo | trivially ram backed | 20:47 |
| nemo | s/loaded/written/ | 20:47 |
| * _abc_ remembers when he was using wwwoffle 20 years ago as cache with a modem. | 20:48 | |
| furrywolf | time an apt-get upgrade, which is what started this, on both a hdd and a ssd. :P | 20:48 |
| furrywolf | apt is another thousands-of-tiny-files operation. | 20:48 |
| nemo | I'm not disputing that operations that involve a lot of updating of infrequently accessed stuff will be slower | 20:49 |
| nemo | in terms of my desktop experience though, that's basically irrelevant | 20:49 |
| nemo | frankly I don't really care how long the upgrade takes 99% of the time | 20:49 |
| nemo | hell, I have gentoo systems so I must *really* not care 😉 | 20:49 |
| furrywolf | in my experience, normal desktop usage is vastly better with a ssd. to the point where I'm never using a hdd for anything other than backups again. | 20:50 |
| nemo | now if the upgrade forced me off the desktop while it was upgrading, that sure would suck | 20:50 |
| nemo | and in my experience exactly opposite! 😃 | 20:50 |
| nemo | so lucky for me I'm happy eh | 20:50 |
| * nemo hugs his 4T drive | 20:50 | |
| nemo | which cost him $100 | 20:50 |
| nemo | hm | 20:50 |
| nemo | wonder how much a 4T SSD would cost | 20:50 |
| furrywolf | $450 | 20:50 |
| stiltr | It's interesting how many fellow gentoo people are here in #devuan. :) | 20:51 |
| _abc_ | devuan is systemd less gentoo? :) | 20:51 |
| * _abc_ would be interested in the expertise of arch people | 20:51 | |
| nemo | https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=4T+SSD&N=-1 that's clearly on the low-end. but yeah, no thanks | 20:52 |
| nemo | _abc_: systemd is optional in gentoo | 20:52 |
| nemo | _abc_: hell. on a couple of my gentoo systems I run a complete poetering purge | 20:52 |
| stiltr | Everything is optional in gentoo. haha | 20:52 |
| _abc_ | So, again, what would an "embedded" image be? | 20:52 |
| nemo | just 'cause it is easier to pull off | 20:52 |
| nemo | https://m8y.org/tmp/package_mask.txt | 20:52 |
| _abc_ | gentoo is the one where you compile everything from scratch? Or is that arch? | 20:52 |
| nemo | stiltr: yeah, but they do go to the effort of maintaining alternatives. which is nice of them | 20:53 |
| nemo | stiltr: they were one of the first ones actually... | 20:53 |
| stiltr | For sure! | 20:53 |
| stiltr | _abc_: I think arch is basically gentoo with binary packages. | 20:54 |
| nemo | https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Hard_dependencies_on_systemd | 20:54 |
| nemo | stiltr: gentoo always had binary packages but they are very poorly maintained these days | 20:54 |
| nemo | maybe due to arch. dunno | 20:54 |
| nemo | you can ofc maintain your own binary repo locally | 20:54 |
| stiltr | Ya, you can do bin packages in gentoo, but I think arch is bin-only. That said, I have very limited experience with arch. | 20:55 |
| nemo | hm. only 6 packages with hard depends on systemd. not bad | 20:56 |
| nemo | setting aside systemd itself naturally I imagine ☺ | 20:56 |
| nemo | mutter and gnome is no shock | 20:56 |
| stiltr | Ya, I was pleasantly surprised by that. | 20:56 |
| nemo | hm. and one of the others is only "kinda requires systemd" | 20:56 |
| _abc_ | A sign that the cancer has not spread to the bones yet | 20:57 |
| * _abc_ heads for #slackware to ask about systemd penetration there | 20:57 | |
| fsmithred | _abc_, embedded images are disk images (.img) not isos. You just dd the system to the device. (e.g. raspi) | 20:58 |
| fsmithred | the .xz is compression | 20:58 |
| _abc_ | Ah those. Non pc platform "firmware". | 21:00 |
| _abc_ | I will hate google forever for letting android call the firmware flash image "rom" | 21:01 |
| fsmithred | rofu? (read-only-for-user) | 21:02 |
| stiltr | I'm not sure I'd call it firmware in the case of a full OS, but ya pretty much. Definitely agree on the misuse of ROM. | 21:02 |
| stiltr | haha | 21:03 |
| fsmithred | no user serviceable parts inside | 21:03 |
| fsmithred | or bits | 21:03 |
| stiltr | I always take that more as a challenge... | 21:04 |
| _abc_ | yes, pity cyanogenmod became a tame app supplier lately. | 21:06 |
| fsmithred | so the ssd is more than 4x the speed of the old drive on buffered disk reads | 21:18 |
| fsmithred | about 10% faster on cached reads | 21:19 |
| _abc_ | Write is not slower, right? On ssd vs hdd? fsmithred? | 21:20 |
| furrywolf | ssds are much faster, especially at random writes. | 21:21 |
| _abc_ | Sure, no head seek time. | 21:22 |
| _abc_ | But sustained write speed? Faster too? | 21:22 |
| fsmithred | I only tested reads | 21:22 |
| furrywolf | yes, sustained write is much faster too. | 21:24 |
| furrywolf | anything remotely modern is limited by the sata iii interface, which is why nvme became a thing. | 21:24 |
| furrywolf | heh, and with shingled recording, modern hdd write speeds are actually going back down in some cases. | 21:26 |
| furrywolf | the seagate backup drives I got are disgustingly slow. | 21:26 |
| _abc_ | Shingled slows down? Interesting. | 21:28 |
| furrywolf | incredibly much so | 21:28 |
| furrywolf | all the tests that claim acceptable write speeds are either small tests where the drive writes only to its non-shingled buffer areas, or large sequential writes (>32MB)... | 21:29 |
| furrywolf | https://www.storagereview.com/seagate_archive_hdd_review_8tb has a bunch of tests. https://www.storagereview.com/images/seagate_archive_8tb_sata_main_4kwrite_throughput.png sums up my experience with mine quite well... | 21:30 |
| furrywolf | one of those bars is not like the others. | 21:30 |
| furrywolf | like a ssd, a smr drive can only write large blocks in one go. to change a single sector, it has to read the entire block (32MB for those drives if I remember right) to ram and then write the whole block back. | 21:31 |
| _abc_ | Yes I am aware. | 21:32 |
| _abc_ | Just did not think about the implications till now. | 21:32 |
| _abc_ | Yeah the archive drive clearly is not happy writing there | 21:33 |
| furrywolf | to make this acceptable, they use a non-shingled buffer area. as long as you don't write more than that buffer area can hold, the drive will use its idle periods to slowly move that data out of the buffer and to where it should go. but if you exceed the buffer, it has to do a full read-modify-write operation for every write... which takes a third of a second apparently. | 21:33 |
| _abc_ | furrywolf: I assume also it does not like unscheduled power downs while doing this at all | 21:34 |
| furrywolf | I would assume that too, but I didn't see any tests of that when I was reading about them. | 21:34 |
| _abc_ | Is there some minimal guarantee that data loss will not occur in case of unscheduled power down after the host wrote the buffers but while the drive is shoeshining that block? | 21:34 |
| furrywolf | https://www.storagereview.com/images/seagate_archive_8tb_sata_main_8k7030_throughput.png even with larger blocks and both reads and writes mixed... no, that's not the X axis there at the bottom... | 21:35 |
| _abc_ | I get it. | 21:36 |
| _abc_ | Well, is the price at least proportionally lower? ... | 21:36 |
| furrywolf | I bought a seagate backup drive at costco, and was trying to figure out why the fuck it was stupid pathetically god-awfully nonfunctionally slow. at first I thought the drive was defective... then I googled and learned about these things. | 21:37 |
| _abc_ | Aren't these the Helium filled ones? Or is that another thing? | 21:37 |
| furrywolf | they're pretty cheap, yes. I wouldn't buy one again. not worth it. | 21:37 |
| furrywolf | I have two of them. really only good for backups, and ones that you don't need to sit there for. | 21:38 |
| _abc_ | Interesting ambient does not give the usual max. operating altitude. I read that as them being pressurized. | 21:38 |
| furrywolf | I don't have the exact version in that article... I have the 4tb 2.5" version. | 21:40 |
| furrywolf | damnit, I have to go to work soon, and that means putting a top on. it is way too fucking hot today. | 21:41 |
| _abc_ | Well they give 1/1e15 read probability error, that is low enough. | 21:41 |
| _abc_ | HGST is who? Hitachi Toshiba ? | 21:43 |
| furrywolf | hitachi, ibm, wd... | 21:45 |
| _abc_ | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HGST ah | 21:46 |
| furrywolf | googling says seagate at one point was saying they used the energy of the platters spinning the spindle motor to power the drive long enough to orderly shut down. | 21:49 |
| furrywolf | they keep pointing at the original until the new data is completely written, so it only needs to power itself long enough to update the metadata | 21:50 |
| furrywolf | if the big block write is interrupted, nothing bad happens, since it's not being pointed at yet | 21:50 |
| furrywolf | and the metadata update is quick enough it has enough stored energy to finish it | 21:51 |
| _abc_ | Makes sense. | 21:53 |
| furrywolf | the ssds in the boxes I care about are enterprise ones, which have a big bank of capacitors to make sure they can finish their housekeeping... using the kinetic energy of the platters for the same purpose on a hdd is clever. | 21:55 |
| furrywolf | bbl, time to put on socially-acceptable levels of clothing and head to work. | 21:57 |
| _abc_ | It is also old. As an idea. Backup online for big machines was ensured by the rotary converter spinning down, while still generating, until the Diesels started. | 21:57 |
| _abc_ | It also bridged any gap while relays switched over to battery powered rotary generator etc. | 21:57 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.17.0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at https://mg.pov.lt/irclog2html/!
