| tom_work_ | How do I get libp2p on Devuan? | 01:38 |
|---|---|---|
| rmzelnick | Hello all, how do I install docker on Devuan? | 02:00 |
| gnarface | i think you have to find a build that doesn't require systemd | 02:05 |
| gnarface | there's info somewhere about it | 02:05 |
| gnarface | maybe people are using the old one still or maybe they're just using a custom build | 02:05 |
| gnarface | i'm not sure | 02:05 |
| rmzelnick | I found a static build here https://download.docker.com/linux/static/stable/x86_64/ | 02:08 |
| gnarface | i've never used it so i can't speak personally for it | 02:08 |
| rmzelnick | Is is possible for me to add a Debian repository in sources.list? | 02:08 |
| gnarface | yes possible but completely advised against | 02:09 |
| fsmithred | rmzelnick, that would not be good | 02:09 |
| fsmithred | if it's not in devuan, it probably requires systemd | 02:09 |
| gnarface | as always, using software from outside the distro is not recommended or supported officially. nonetheless many people get away with it | 02:09 |
| rmzelnick | Ok I have added a key to my apt that belongs to Debian, was gonna install docker, but now I need to have it removed. | 02:09 |
| gnarface | just don't forget i recommended you make a full backup first | 02:09 |
| fsmithred | the key won't hurt | 02:10 |
| rmzelnick | how can I remove it? | 02:10 |
| fsmithred | apt-get remove debian-archive-keyring | 02:10 |
| fsmithred | but you don't need to do it. I've noticed that I get that key sometimes (maybe always) | 02:10 |
| fsmithred | not sure if I get it on regular install, live-sdk or debootstrap, but I'm sure I"ve seen it. | 02:11 |
| rmzelnick | Oh this is bad.. | 02:11 |
| rmzelnick | I installed NordVPN and added Debian packages to my distro | 02:11 |
| fsmithred | you might even need it. I'm not sure. | 02:11 |
| fsmithred | do you know what packages? | 02:12 |
| rmzelnick | Hold on I'm pulling up the installation instructions | 02:12 |
| onefang | Debian key ring is used to sign the Debian packages that Devuan uses, and should have been installed when you installed your Devuan system in the first place. | 02:13 |
| fsmithred | ok, that's kinda what I thought | 02:13 |
| fsmithred | since 99% of our packages come from debian unchanged | 02:13 |
| onefang | Exactly. | 02:13 |
| fsmithred | 'apt-key list' shows me a bunch of them | 02:14 |
| rmzelnick | Looking at my history, I just installed .deb using `dpkg` and use `apt-get install -f` | 02:15 |
| fsmithred | with debian in sources.list? | 02:16 |
| rmzelnick | No | 02:16 |
| fsmithred | no problem, then | 02:16 |
| rmzelnick | Yea I only have Devuan in sources.list | 02:17 |
| fsmithred | you installed a .deb file that was for debian, so it's also for devuan (as long as it doesn't need systemd) | 02:17 |
| fsmithred | if you're running ascii, you would use packages for stretch, and if you're running beowulf you would use buster packages. | 02:18 |
| rmzelnick | This is so strange because I have a bunch of Debian keys in my apt-key | 02:18 |
| rmzelnick | but it's all security related | 02:18 |
| fsmithred | yes, scroll up a few lines | 02:18 |
| fsmithred | I have nine debian keys | 02:18 |
| rmzelnick | and archive too | 02:18 |
| fsmithred | like I said, most of our packages come from debian | 02:19 |
| fsmithred | just a few that we fork to get them to work without systemd | 02:19 |
| rmzelnick | So why not just install docker-ce? Does docker depend on systemd? | 02:19 |
| fsmithred | I think so | 02:19 |
| fsmithred | some part of it does | 02:19 |
| rmzelnick | Ok I know this sounds dumb, but isn't systemd compatible with init? | 02:21 |
| gnarface | lol, no | 02:22 |
| rmzelnick | I'm pretty sure I was able to manage my runlevels using a sysv utility tool | 02:22 |
| rmzelnick | https://packages.debian.org/jessie/sysv-rc-conf | 02:22 |
| rmzelnick | This one ^ | 02:22 |
| gnarface | i highly doubt it, but it's irrelevant anyway | 02:23 |
| gnarface | even if it worked, that's hardly the only thing systemd breaks | 02:23 |
| onefang | I use sysv-rc-conf all the time, it's nothing to do with systemd. | 02:23 |
| rmzelnick | Have you guys had any success compiling a kernel to work with systemd before? | 02:24 |
| rmzelnick | I haven't and yet I remember meeting all dependencies | 02:24 |
| gnarface | the devuan kernel is the same as the debian kernel | 02:24 |
| rmzelnick | the thing just wouldn't boot | 02:24 |
| rmzelnick | What's the difference between Vanilla and Debian kernel? | 02:25 |
| gnarface | debian adds a bunch of patches | 02:25 |
| gnarface | like dozens | 02:25 |
| gnarface | some of them eventually make it into the vanilla kernel and some don't | 02:26 |
| onefang | I think all the major distros patch the kernel. | 02:28 |
| gnarface | i thought gentoo did not | 02:28 |
| rmzelnick | patch the kernel? | 02:28 |
| rmzelnick | Yes they do | 02:28 |
| gnarface | yea, but it's been a long time since i looked | 02:28 |
| onefang | You probably get to choose your patches when you compile your kernel with Gentoo. | 02:29 |
| rmzelnick | I'm tempted to install this docker static but I'm afraid everything will go hay wire | 02:29 |
| gnarface | it might just be that they patch it now but they didn't last time i tried it (sometime before 2008) | 02:29 |
| rmzelnick | I actually come from | 02:30 |
| rmzelnick | gentoo | 02:30 |
| gnarface | rmzelnick: you could always try it in a chroot to protect your current install from dependency corruption if that's what you're afraid of | 02:30 |
| rmzelnick | Got tired of compiling, used debian w/o systemd for a long time and now decided to just use devuan | 02:30 |
| rmzelnick | Also BSD mirrors were always down so I gave up on FreeBSD | 02:31 |
| rmzelnick | gnarface like a chroot jail? | 02:32 |
| gnarface | yes, exactly like a chroot jail | 02:33 |
| gnarface | you can just use debootstrap to put a fresh install into the chroot | 02:33 |
| rmzelnick | oh yea | 02:34 |
| rmzelnick | uhm... | 02:34 |
| gnarface | you'll need some disk space | 02:34 |
| gnarface | a gig or two should be plenty | 02:34 |
| rmzelnick | I have plenty | 02:34 |
| gnarface | minimum size is around ~500MB without removing stuff by hand after the fact, but i don't know how much extra space docker dependencies take up | 02:34 |
| rmzelnick | so if I use debootstrap.. then I can install Debian stuff on my Devuan and use it seamlessly right? | 02:35 |
| gnarface | yes, and maybe that would dodge this problem entirely, but i didn't recommend this as a permanent solution | 02:35 |
| rmzelnick | why not permanent? | 02:35 |
| gnarface | i meant that you could put devuan in the chroot then iron out the docker issues, so you know it's safe to put docker in your main install again. then just delete the chroot when you're done with it. that was what i was gonna suggest. but it's up to you. | 02:36 |
| gnarface | i don't think anything will stop you from running debian in a chroot on a devuan host | 02:36 |
| gnarface | i haven't tried it myself | 02:36 |
| rmzelnick | I think so too, but I will need to use docker for work so err it's a necessity for putting bread on the table | 02:37 |
| rmzelnick | I have 1TB so I'll be fine | 02:37 |
| rmzelnick | I am gonna have to fetch keys from Debian | 02:41 |
| rmzelnick | E: Release signed by unknown key (key id DCC9EFBF77E11517) | 02:41 |
| rmzelnick | nvm | 02:45 |
| clebig | hi | 11:47 |
| gnarface | hi clebig, if you have any questions it is usually best to just ask them | 11:49 |
| gnarface | you won't always get an immediate response | 11:49 |
| clebig | I know :) | 11:54 |
| clebig | I'm also a bit laggy in the way I interract with people/channels... | 11:54 |
| clebig | So yes, I have a question regarding the "recent" GR about init. <question>I know devuan militated for a proposal where other non-systemd init would have their place, but finally proposal B was adopted. What does that mean for Devuan,then ? How do you see the future ? Do you think the Devuan team has/will have enough workforce to maintain the debian packages that would drop non-systemd init support | 12:20 |
| clebig | ?</question> | 12:20 |
| clebig | I sorry, I'm sure this has been widely discussed here and there, but I couldn't follow up on it when that happened. | 12:21 |
| clebig | And I don't find anything regarding this topic on Devuan's website... | 12:21 |
| MinceR | it seems they're ignoring the result of their GR anyway and just do whatever's the worst for not using cancerd | 12:22 |
| MinceR | https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2020/02/msg00186.html | 12:23 |
| MinceR | People may or may not take those patches. | 12:23 |
| MinceR | It's okay even if the reason they don't take those patches is they don't | 12:23 |
| MinceR | want to support the alternate init system you are working on. | 12:23 |
| onefang | I think that's a subject for #debian-fork. | 12:24 |
| clebig | thanks for the link MinceR, I'm on it :) | 12:27 |
| MinceR | np | 12:27 |
| clebig | But that's nothing encouraging. So the question remains for Devuan. Even if only a few maintainers follow the Debian's new direction, it would have an impact on the workload for Devuan. But what if the decision is widely adopted by maintainers ? | 12:39 |
| clebig | For the moment, Devuan maintainers are working as usual ? Is it like "wait and see" ? | 12:40 |
| GyrosGeier | the sanest thing is to let the Docker people deal with it | 14:00 |
| GyrosGeier | php now requires systemd-tmpfiles => php no longer works in Docker containers | 14:00 |
| GyrosGeier | might make sense to position Devuan as a container OS :) | 14:01 |
| MinceR | might make sense to abandon php | 14:01 |
| GyrosGeier | that too | 14:01 |
| GyrosGeier | but getting the cloud people on board would be a good source of contributors | 14:02 |
| onefang | I'm trying to abandon PHP, but too much stuff is written in it, will take some time to rewrite it all. | 14:03 |
| * onefang goes to eat. | 14:03 | |
| GyrosGeier | hm | 14:04 |
| GyrosGeier | it might make sense to have official Devuan images on Docker Hub | 14:05 |
| MinceR | indeed | 14:05 |
| GyrosGeier | proper multiarch images | 14:05 |
| zatumil | I think a universal operating system should distribute only a small number of binary images instead of images for every use case | 14:38 |
| djph | zatumil: so, LFS then? | 14:39 |
| GyrosGeier | Docker multiarch images are basically meta-images | 14:40 |
| GyrosGeier | "if you have amd64, use this" | 14:40 |
| GyrosGeier | takes a bit of effort to build them correctly | 14:41 |
| zatumil | the image must have debian-installer which downloads other packages | 14:41 |
| GyrosGeier | because you need infrastructure to debootstrap multiple architectures collect the hashes of the generated images, and combine them | 14:41 |
| GyrosGeier | no | 14:41 |
| GyrosGeier | Docker images are readymade installations | 14:42 |
| GyrosGeier | they are especially not supposed to download more stuff on start | 14:42 |
| GyrosGeier | because start needs to be zero-cost | 14:42 |
| GyrosGeier | basically, you'd ship the result of debootstrap with /var/lib/apt/lists and /var/cache/apt cleaned | 14:43 |
| zatumil | software distribution requires downloading stuff | 14:43 |
| GyrosGeier | Docker works differently | 14:43 |
| GyrosGeier | it is made so you can cache things locally | 14:44 |
| GyrosGeier | so you don't need to download the same packages over and over again | 14:44 |
| zatumil | thats why local repositories exist | 14:44 |
| clebig | GyrosGeier: Devuan is already a kind of container+qemu-kvm OS for my organisation :) | 14:45 |
| clebig | when I say container, I thing LXC | 14:45 |
| clebig | tjink | 14:45 |
| clebig | think | 14:45 |
| clebig | shit ! | 14:45 |
| MinceR | you could create a container with a general purpose image, install/uninstall packages, then make your own special purpose image | 15:39 |
| GyrosGeier | MinceR, that's what I'm suggesting: an "official" general purpose image | 17:54 |
| MinceR | and i'm agreeing | 17:54 |
| GyrosGeier | like I can use "FROM debian:buster", and it just works | 17:55 |
| fsmithred | https://github.com/dyne/docker-devuan-builds | 18:41 |
| fsmithred | MinceR, GyrosGeier have you seen these? ^^^ | 18:42 |
| MinceR | i haven't | 18:42 |
| fsmithred | search for 'docker images devuan' brings up a list on github with a few relevant hits, but this is the only one for which I know the dev. (Jaromil) | 18:43 |
| fsmithred | duckduck search, not github search | 18:43 |
| GyrosGeier | ah nice | 19:40 |
| GyrosGeier | didn't find these by searching for "devuan" on docker hub | 19:40 |
| golinux | GyrosGeier: There is also this post on the Devuan forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=3331 | 19:43 |
| golinux | Someone is de-fanging php | 19:43 |
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