libera/#devuan/ Tuesday, 2020-04-14

cushopenbsdtai123: what alternative is there?00:11
cushyou should get a droid 4 and make it the best phone for free software00:12
meep_____Gentoo does everything else perfectly except for having stable, LTS releases instead of rolling00:12
meep_____And Alpine linux only has 2 year releases and a lack of existing software00:12
meep_____And a very overly-minimal package manager00:13
meep_____And Slackware lacks proper package management00:13
cushalpine felt like trying to walk around in my girlfriend's shoes00:13
blebopenbsdtai123: woah didn't know kde 1 was restored00:27
blebis it practical?  does it have programs like kmail from kde1?00:29
sedroskenhonestly nothing has been as comfortable an experience as devuan01:05
sedroskenplain debian with systemd came actually kinda close, but that was only on the familiarity01:06
sedroskendevuan has that *and* a competent init system!01:06
sedroskenand sane daemons01:06
sedroskennothing like setting a static ip in /etc/networking/interfaces and having it...01:06
* sedrosken gasps01:06
sedroskenwork01:06
sedroskenbut enough about that! I forgot I was in #devuan and not #debianfork01:07
cushi enjoy how most things work like they did 20 years ago01:09
cushchanges to iptables were not welcome though01:09
sedroskenI use ufw myself01:10
cushi vaguely recall that name01:10
cushit's not built on iptables?01:10
sedroskenI think it's a frontend for iptables?01:11
cushk01:11
sedroskenit requires a kernel with iptables support01:11
cushmy frontend no longer works01:11
sedroskenit's great, I set can set any port as an exception that I want, I can unblock all traffic for the local IP range, it does everything you need a basic firewall to do01:11
cushcan it do egress monitoring and per-app blocks?01:12
cushlike zonealarm for windows01:12
sedroskenI believe no to the former but yes to the latter01:12
openbsdtai123the fltk library is a complete mess. finally, there arent good libs for gui.01:12
cushthere is a project that aims to provide it but it uses really sketchiy libraries01:13
cushfltk is glorious and perfect in all ways01:13
sedroskenunfortunately convoluted GUI libs are just a fact of life these days openbsdtai12301:13
sedroskenwhatever platform01:13
cushyou want c and not c++, right openbsdtai123 ?01:15
phillipsjksedrosken, do you happen to know if the makefile style init is new since systemd? it seems to have some of the same problems as the systmed init: namely aggressive time-outs becuase everything is done in parallel instead of serially.02:23
tuxd3vopenbsdtai123, what is the ammount of ram for kde1 desktop, after a cold boot03:07
cushtuxd3v: you have a .mod player?03:38
tuxd3vcush, what is a .mod ?03:49
cushyes03:49
cush http://0x0.st/iT7M.MOD03:49
cushlisten and think03:49
cushi did that in 199303:49
tuxd3vcush, nice music :)04:06
cushi was also a bit crazy in 9304:06
cush> http://0x0.st/iQbG.mp304:06
cushwell, i was exploring boundaries04:07
tuxd3vthat is a nice song for tuxkart04:07
tuxd3v:)04:07
rrqplease use #debianfork for this fascinating and interesting thread of thought04:08
cushopen it to unregistered users then04:08
DonkeyHoteiit was open in the first place04:09
DonkeyHoteijust join04:10
cushoh it is, sorry04:10
rrqguys .. please use #debianfork for that thread04:10
cushi will do that04:10
cushunless you would like04:11
cushto discuss04:11
cushmoving this conversation04:11
cushto #debianfork, some more04:11
cushhere04:11
BloatHunterso does devuan track only stable06:59
gnarfacehuh?  no07:03
golinuxBloatHunter: Jessie is old stable.  ASCII is our current stable.07:03
gnarface(no, but it's currently behind by a release)07:03
golinuxBeowulf is beta and about to become the new stable.07:04
golinuxBeowulf = Buster07:04
golinuxChimaera = Bullseye.07:05
* golinux needs sleep. bye07:06
BloatHunterDoes devuan just cut off packages that don't work i assume, like debdelta07:06
BloatHunteror systemd tightly integrated packages like pthon3-systemd07:07
gnarfaceBloatHunter: they try to fix the ones they can then they ban the rest: http://packages.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt07:07
BloatHunteris there a generic arm64 kernel or split off, or no arm?07:09
openbsdtai123cush: Yes, this unstructured comes from C++, which makes FLTK not versatile for usage. C would be better indeed.07:54
golinuxBloatHunter: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewforum.php?id=24 and #devuan-arm07:57
openbsdtai123Is there a Vmware or Virtualbox for Devuan Education?08:13
gnarfaceopenbsdtai123: i think unofficially someone made one based on wheezy08:37
gnarface(never touched it myself so don't quote me on that)08:37
openbsdtai123that would be cool, education devuan, I definitely need to test it.08:54
gnarfacenot a "education devuan" i mean, but a virtualbox compatible with devuan08:56
gnarfacei would seriously recommend considering that devuan is the "education version"08:57
gnarfaceit's completely free for students (and in this world everyone is either a student or delusional)08:58
gnarfaceit comes stock with all the documentation built-in08:58
gnarface(though so did Debian)08:58
gnarfaceand frankly there's no better choice for teaching or learning08:58
gnarface(unless you're a sadist, in which case force them to use Gentoo first)08:58
BloatHunterBut how else will they learn to funrolloops?08:59
gnarfaceheh08:59
gnarfacewell yea, that comes down to teaching style.  some teachers would rather their students enjoy the early experiences of learning and the others just like to throw children in the deep end so they can watch them flail about in panic08:59
gnarfacebut really, in this context, pretty much every distro is a "education version" and if you don't get why i'm saying that you're missing something fundamental and quite literal, not in any way figurative, about why Linux exists in the first place09:01
openbsdtai123I can make a Beowulf virtualbox DEVUAN education. Can I get a FTP to upload it?09:01
gnarfacei don't work here so that's not in my jurisdiction to say09:01
gnarfacei can recommend what has worked for other participants though; put it somewhere the developers can download it and test it, then put a link to that in the forum09:02
gnarfacethere's also a forum09:02
YoubiHello, I’m on devuan unstable, and since yesterday (or the day before), I get a 404 not found when upgrading packages.09:02
gnarface*i mean there's also a mailing list09:03
YoubiThe 404 is only for packages libgtk-3-common_3.24.17-1_all.deb and libxatracker2_20.0.2-1_amd64.deb09:03
openbsdtai123I can post it here to test it before, I have where to upload, but an bit with devuan on it sounds nicer.09:03
YoubiDo I have a bad cache somewhere?09:03
gnarfaceopenbsdtai123: and i think you might be able to get a word with them in #devuan-dev, but i'm not sure if that's a safe idea until you've composed some presentation or something09:04
gnarfaceYoubi: it could be your /etc/apt/sources.list file has some mistakes, but also these type of transient errors are common - and transient09:04
gnarfaceYoubi: i didn't get those errors yesterday though, so mabye it's your sources.list09:05
openbsdtai123during this week, I will try to make it prepared.09:05
Youbignarface: ok ^^ I’ll check it again09:05
gnarfaceYoubi: i'm using this:09:05
gnarfacedeb http://deb.devuan.org/merged ceres main09:05
gnarfacedeb-src http://deb.devuan.org/merged ceres main09:05
Youbideb http://packages.devuan.org/merged ceres main non-free09:06
Youbi(and same for deb-src)09:06
YoubiOh, thanks, trying with `deb` subdomain instead09:06
gnarfaceYoubi: (note that "auto.mirror" is deprecated now and changed changed to "deb"... master is pkgmaster.devuan.org... i wasn't aware packages.devuan.org was ever a valid name)09:06
Youbi^^"09:07
YoubiI should follow announces to avoid that situation :/09:07
gnarfaceYoubi: deb.devuan.org is a dns round-robin, so if one of those gives you a 404, just assume it's a temporary error unless it recurs more than twice in a row)09:08
YoubiOk wow, from 28 upgradable packages to 208.09:08
gnarfacethere IS a known issue where you could get a 404 if you catch the mirror in mid-update of one of the files you're currently downloading09:08
gnarface(but those are the expected transient errors)09:09
YoubiThanks gnarface, no more issue and a correct source.list file ^^09:09
gnarface(and Debian has that bug too, but with hundreds more mirrors than us, you're much less likely to catch one mid-update)09:10
i0i0i0hello, any news about beowulf release?09:15
gnarfacei don't know but people have already been using it09:16
i0i0i0it seems unstable09:17
gnarfacewhich definition of unstable to you mean?  it's crashing a lot, or stuff changes a lot?09:17
gnarfacethe latter is probably gonna be an issue for a while still09:18
gnarfacebut the former issue might be addressable, since most people are using it without complaint simply by avoiding the graphical login stuff09:19
gnarfaceanother thing that would help is distinguishing the level of instability from your experience with the previous release (ascii) and the backports kernel for it (which is almost the same one as in beowulf currently)09:20
i0i0i0pulseaudio must be purged of beowulf release09:20
i0i0i0is a really dangerous bad copy of low-level API macOS coreaudio09:20
gnarfacecan you elaborate on why?  because i purged pulseaudio years ago and never looked back09:20
i0i0i0when things are bad programmed, is better to avoid09:21
gnarfaceoh, i agree.  but i mean, is the beowulf version of it doing something new and worse somehow than ascii was?  that's the question that matters09:21
i0i0i0beowulf need new things09:21
i0i0i0i3wm09:22
i0i0i0and coming with cinnamon desktop as the default wm09:22
gnarfaceoh, well, i'm pretty sure it has i3wm already09:22
i0i0i0i mean a customized i3wm09:23
i0i0i0like manjaro i309:23
gnarfacefeel free to provide one and solicit it for inclusion09:23
gnarfacethey almost certainly won't include it in the official image, but you'll find support around here if you're serious about contributing09:24
gnarfacei think someone has already done something similar about cinnamon09:24
i0i0i0also remove wicd09:25
i0i0i0in xfce09:25
gnarfacei don't know if all this stuff has been collected somewhere but i thought i remember hearing talk about a "devuan-proposed-updates" repo somewhere, with unofficial 3rd party contributions that Debian won't include upstream09:25
gnarfaceheh, yea you're not gonna get rid of wicd unless you can replace it with something better (and keep in mind, it is already the "something better" that was put there to replace network-manager, so just demanding they change back to network-manager is a waste of breath)09:26
i0i0i0wicd is bad coded09:26
gnarfaceagris:  you gonna take this shit from him?09:26
gnarfacecareful what you with for i0i0i009:27
gnarface*wish for09:27
agrishow to denial-of-service any Devuan desktop:09:28
agrisbroadcast a wifi network in range with unicode in the name09:29
gnarface(i0i0i0, you do get that you can just uninstall anything you don't like, right?  the network configuration can be entered by hand into /etc/network/interfaces - you're under no obligation to use the default desktop loadout)09:29
i0i0i0yes i know09:29
i0i0i0but this is not the point09:29
i0i0i0network-manager works really good09:29
i0i0i0and is useful and simple09:29
gnarfaceno, it provably does not09:29
gnarfaceand if it did, it would still be the devuan default09:30
gnarfaceit is however, still in the repo, and you're welcome to use it instead if you feel like doing that to yourself09:30
debdoglol09:30
agrisi0i0i0, if you make something better i'm sure openbsd folks would appreciate it too09:30
onefangChoices are good, we can have both.  Some of us like pulseaudio and wicd.  Works fine for me.09:30
agriswicd is just the least garbage of all the choices09:31
agrisand nobody wants to touch all that outdated python209:31
agrisit sucks09:31
agrisbut it's what we have09:31
gnarfacei personally still like doing it the old way, by hand, so i can't actually speak much about first-hand experience with either too.09:31
agrisso we must make the best out of it09:31
gnarface*either tool09:31
agrisgnarface, FUCK doing wifi by hand in Linux. That bullshit is so insane and still has not improved since it was first put in back in linux 2.6, not having WPA security as part of the kernel09:32
agriswpa_supplicant is the purist form of cancer there is09:32
gnarfaceagris: meh.  just make your /etc/network/interfaces file only readable by root09:32
agrisI'm not even going to pretend wpa_supplicant is good09:32
gnarfacehaha09:32
gnarfaceto be honest i heavily avoid wifi, but i do admit, configuring it by hand is a real PITA in linux09:33
agrisit boggles my mind it still hasn't been replaced by literally anything09:33
agrisgnarface, this is how openbsd does it09:33
agris# ifconfig wlan0 nwid mywifnetworking wpakey supersekretpassword09:33
agrisdhclient wlan009:34
agrisalso09:35
gnarfacehmm... did i actually succeed at my first wifi config on openbsd before i did on linux?  yes, i think i did actually - though it was something i later ended up blaming on the (at the time out-of-tree) pcmcia driver build process09:35
agristry burning a multisession disk in linux without k3b09:35
gnarfaceoh, i don't have a problem with that09:35
gnarfacebut it did take some research09:35
agrisgnarface, also on openbsd /etc/hostname.interface09:35
gnarfaceyea, that's a nice convention09:35
* onefang thinks this conversation belongs in #debianfork.09:36
gnarfacebut that would be fairly easy to simulate in linux09:36
agrisGentoo has that too09:36
agrisvia OpenRC09:36
gnarfaceyou're right onefang09:36
agrisbut Devuan's OpenRC is still pretty broken09:36
agrisalso gnarface09:36
i0i0i0runit rock09:36
agriswhat were you talking about about?  who am i "taking shit" from?09:36
gnarfacesomeone has provided a "gentoo-style" openrc but it's not in the official repos09:36
gnarfaceagris: this all started because i0i0i0 had a list of demands including purging wicd from the distro.  didn't you make wicd or am i confusing you with someone else?09:37
agris><i0i0i0> pulseaudio must be purged of beowulf release09:37
gnarfaceagris: sorry if i dragged you into this unnecessarily09:37
gnarfaceagris: oh sorry, i must have confused you with someone else that has a short a-name09:38
agrisI didn't make wicd09:38
agrisI tried hacking it at some point to try and fix the denial-of-service vuln I discovered in it09:39
agrisbut gave up09:39
gnarfaceoh hmmm. could that be what i'm remembering?  no, but that's probably why i conflated the two nicks in my head though...09:39
i0i0i0wicd is designed in python, network managers must be designed with C or C++09:39
agrisit's so overly complex bundle of old python209:39
agrisbut everything else I know of is worse so i stick with it09:39
agrisi0i0i0, nothing wrong in of itself being not developed in c09:40
i0i0i0python is areally bad programming language09:40
gnarfaceyea i know they only included it because it was faster for someone to make something new than to extract systemd from network-manager.  later network-manager did get fixed though too, but it never regained "default" status09:40
agrisI wouldn't mind a network manager in perl09:40
agrisbut when you do things like copy-paste code from stack overflow and use single-letter varibles and subroutine names is when even with the chasity belt of Python's syntax your code becomes unreadable09:41
i0i0i0check the wicd cpu usage and network-manager, and you will see it09:41
onefangThat's why I put th wicd GUI away after I no longer need it, it leaks.09:42
agrisleaks!?09:42
agrisare you sure about that?09:42
agristhat's weird for a python program to do that09:43
onefangIf I leave it running all day, it consumes lots of memory.09:43
agrishmm09:43
gnarfacei0i0i0: note that it could be a non-default gtk theme engine actually leaking09:43
agrismaybe your doing something special. I have multi-month uptime on wicd09:43
agrisno leaks09:43
gnarfacesome of the gtk theme engines have a history of bad leaks09:43
i0i0i0i've tested wicd in different scenarios09:44
i0i0i0and always the same cpu usage09:44
gnarfaceoften it gets blamed on particular programs when it's actually a buggy theme combined with a buggy engine09:44
onefangI found that out recently, coz of the problems we have had here with Internet.  Had to keep swapping between four different WiFi APs.09:44
onefangIs that the GUI of wicd you mean?09:44
agriswell09:44
agrisone thing is for sure09:44
agrisit's not going to get fixed until it bugs one of us enough for us to do something about it09:45
onefangThe Internet should be fixed now.09:45
agrisI'm already fighting the GUI forking XFCE and gtk2 progam fight09:45
agrisI don't want to pick up the os wifi management fight09:46
agrisi've got enough on my plate09:46
agrismaybe you could fix it i0i0i009:46
i0i0i0i'm a C++ programmer09:46
agrisyou only know one language?09:47
onefangI only know one .. hundred.  B-)09:47
i0i0i0also assembly and C09:48
gnarfacemake a new one then09:49
gnarfaceif you know C and C++, gtk2 should be an easy step forward09:49
i0i0i0i don't like to waste my time09:51
i0i0i0js is also really dangerous09:51
gnarfacelol what is it that you are doing right now then?09:51
gnarfaceyou wouldn't characterize this as a waste of your time?  because it sure as fuck is a waste of mine...09:52
agriswell i0i0i009:52
agrisyou should put your keyboard where your mouth is09:52
agriscode us up a new gtk2 network manager in C09:52
agrisI'd switch09:53
agrisif it was really good I might even buy a release09:53
agrisbtw gnarface09:53
agrisI have been looking at this: https://man.sr.ht/billing-faq.md09:53
agrischeck out this software09:54
i0i0i0why? we have network-manager designed with C09:54
agriseven works without javashit09:54
agrisintegrates with automated build service and ci09:54
agrislike gitlab but without the bloat and proprietary09:54
agrisI would totally pay for something like this09:55
onefangSo use network-manager, and stop wasting time bitching about wicd.  Simples.  B-)09:55
agrisintegrates with SMTP09:56
agrishttps://builds.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/job/9741210:19
agristhis is sweet10:19
agrisno js10:19
onefangMy turn for some support.  B-)11:37
onefangI'm running courier email for SMTP and IMAP on two different servers, both installed Devuan ASCII, both more or less configured identically.  SSL works on one, but I get "No supported cipher suites have been found." on one of them.  I've even run diff over the courier and OpenSSL configurations.11:39
phillipsjkdo they have the same patch level? maybe a cipher suite got depricated.11:40
onefangBoth are up to date.11:41
phillipsjkis the server you are talking to the same?11:43
onefangThe non working one is a VM on the working one.  Everything else is working, just not SSL for IMAP and SMTP.  At the moment I'm running IMAP (no SSL no STARTSSL) through a ssh tunnel, that's working, so at least I get my email.11:45
* phillipsjk off to bed11:47
onefangG'night.11:47
BjornnI copied my windows efi boot file and save it away safely, then I copied my devuan efi file into that location with the windows naming convention. resolved a long time issue with having to hold down f9 to pick an OS18:27
Bjornnone small win for mankind18:27
openbsdtai123a short question: In Fl_Browser, is there FL_ENTER, 'a'...'z' ?  it seems that the handle() does only up/down/special 64xxx keys... :( :(20:40
meep_____onefang: what happened to your other fang?21:32
meep_____onefang: courier for smtp? Isn't that a MDA not a MTA?21:33
masonmeep_____: Courier has all kinds of bits.22:00
openbsdtai123Hi, BSD/devuan, this is my FLTK Explorer flrox.cxx using FLTK and vim h,j,k,l keybindings, to browse files. Basic but still interesting if you would like to adapt it for music player...22:50
openbsdtai123  flrox.cxx :  https://termbin.com/ewaq22:51
cushthanks openbsdtai12323:25
openbsdtai123I managed to make the keys hjkl working ;)23:26
cushyou help fellow man by making useful things which also teach23:28
openbsdtai123I would like to have some other guys working with me to replace the desktop with FLTK apps.23:49
openbsdtai123I planned to use only ARM as main desktop, so only FLTK is the single possibility.23:49
openbsdtai123If some one you would to make CVS to upload fltk small apps like that, please feel free. it shall compile with -lfltk -lm only23:50
yetiI see no problem with XFCE on arm23:58
yetiexcept of being bored with it23:58
yetiI think all my arm board srun either GUIless or with XFCE23:59
yetino other DE23:59

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