cush | openbsdtai123: what alternative is there? | 00:11 |
---|---|---|
cush | you should get a droid 4 and make it the best phone for free software | 00:12 |
meep_____ | Gentoo does everything else perfectly except for having stable, LTS releases instead of rolling | 00:12 |
meep_____ | And Alpine linux only has 2 year releases and a lack of existing software | 00:12 |
meep_____ | And a very overly-minimal package manager | 00:13 |
meep_____ | And Slackware lacks proper package management | 00:13 |
cush | alpine felt like trying to walk around in my girlfriend's shoes | 00:13 |
bleb | openbsdtai123: woah didn't know kde 1 was restored | 00:27 |
bleb | is it practical? does it have programs like kmail from kde1? | 00:29 |
sedrosken | honestly nothing has been as comfortable an experience as devuan | 01:05 |
sedrosken | plain debian with systemd came actually kinda close, but that was only on the familiarity | 01:06 |
sedrosken | devuan has that *and* a competent init system! | 01:06 |
sedrosken | and sane daemons | 01:06 |
sedrosken | nothing like setting a static ip in /etc/networking/interfaces and having it... | 01:06 |
* sedrosken gasps | 01:06 | |
sedrosken | work | 01:06 |
sedrosken | but enough about that! I forgot I was in #devuan and not #debianfork | 01:07 |
cush | i enjoy how most things work like they did 20 years ago | 01:09 |
cush | changes to iptables were not welcome though | 01:09 |
sedrosken | I use ufw myself | 01:10 |
cush | i vaguely recall that name | 01:10 |
cush | it's not built on iptables? | 01:10 |
sedrosken | I think it's a frontend for iptables? | 01:11 |
cush | k | 01:11 |
sedrosken | it requires a kernel with iptables support | 01:11 |
cush | my frontend no longer works | 01:11 |
sedrosken | it's great, I set can set any port as an exception that I want, I can unblock all traffic for the local IP range, it does everything you need a basic firewall to do | 01:11 |
cush | can it do egress monitoring and per-app blocks? | 01:12 |
cush | like zonealarm for windows | 01:12 |
sedrosken | I believe no to the former but yes to the latter | 01:12 |
openbsdtai123 | the fltk library is a complete mess. finally, there arent good libs for gui. | 01:12 |
cush | there is a project that aims to provide it but it uses really sketchiy libraries | 01:13 |
cush | fltk is glorious and perfect in all ways | 01:13 |
sedrosken | unfortunately convoluted GUI libs are just a fact of life these days openbsdtai123 | 01:13 |
sedrosken | whatever platform | 01:13 |
cush | you want c and not c++, right openbsdtai123 ? | 01:15 |
phillipsjk | sedrosken, do you happen to know if the makefile style init is new since systemd? it seems to have some of the same problems as the systmed init: namely aggressive time-outs becuase everything is done in parallel instead of serially. | 02:23 |
tuxd3v | openbsdtai123, what is the ammount of ram for kde1 desktop, after a cold boot | 03:07 |
cush | tuxd3v: you have a .mod player? | 03:38 |
tuxd3v | cush, what is a .mod ? | 03:49 |
cush | yes | 03:49 |
cush | http://0x0.st/iT7M.MOD | 03:49 |
cush | listen and think | 03:49 |
cush | i did that in 1993 | 03:49 |
tuxd3v | cush, nice music :) | 04:06 |
cush | i was also a bit crazy in 93 | 04:06 |
cush | > http://0x0.st/iQbG.mp3 | 04:06 |
cush | well, i was exploring boundaries | 04:07 |
tuxd3v | that is a nice song for tuxkart | 04:07 |
tuxd3v | :) | 04:07 |
rrq | please use #debianfork for this fascinating and interesting thread of thought | 04:08 |
cush | open it to unregistered users then | 04:08 |
DonkeyHotei | it was open in the first place | 04:09 |
DonkeyHotei | just join | 04:10 |
cush | oh it is, sorry | 04:10 |
rrq | guys .. please use #debianfork for that thread | 04:10 |
cush | i will do that | 04:10 |
cush | unless you would like | 04:11 |
cush | to discuss | 04:11 |
cush | moving this conversation | 04:11 |
cush | to #debianfork, some more | 04:11 |
cush | here | 04:11 |
BloatHunter | so does devuan track only stable | 06:59 |
gnarface | huh? no | 07:03 |
golinux | BloatHunter: Jessie is old stable. ASCII is our current stable. | 07:03 |
gnarface | (no, but it's currently behind by a release) | 07:03 |
golinux | Beowulf is beta and about to become the new stable. | 07:04 |
golinux | Beowulf = Buster | 07:04 |
golinux | Chimaera = Bullseye. | 07:05 |
* golinux needs sleep. bye | 07:06 | |
BloatHunter | Does devuan just cut off packages that don't work i assume, like debdelta | 07:06 |
BloatHunter | or systemd tightly integrated packages like pthon3-systemd | 07:07 |
gnarface | BloatHunter: they try to fix the ones they can then they ban the rest: http://packages.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt | 07:07 |
BloatHunter | is there a generic arm64 kernel or split off, or no arm? | 07:09 |
openbsdtai123 | cush: Yes, this unstructured comes from C++, which makes FLTK not versatile for usage. C would be better indeed. | 07:54 |
golinux | BloatHunter: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewforum.php?id=24 and #devuan-arm | 07:57 |
openbsdtai123 | Is there a Vmware or Virtualbox for Devuan Education? | 08:13 |
gnarface | openbsdtai123: i think unofficially someone made one based on wheezy | 08:37 |
gnarface | (never touched it myself so don't quote me on that) | 08:37 |
openbsdtai123 | that would be cool, education devuan, I definitely need to test it. | 08:54 |
gnarface | not a "education devuan" i mean, but a virtualbox compatible with devuan | 08:56 |
gnarface | i would seriously recommend considering that devuan is the "education version" | 08:57 |
gnarface | it's completely free for students (and in this world everyone is either a student or delusional) | 08:58 |
gnarface | it comes stock with all the documentation built-in | 08:58 |
gnarface | (though so did Debian) | 08:58 |
gnarface | and frankly there's no better choice for teaching or learning | 08:58 |
gnarface | (unless you're a sadist, in which case force them to use Gentoo first) | 08:58 |
BloatHunter | But how else will they learn to funrolloops? | 08:59 |
gnarface | heh | 08:59 |
gnarface | well yea, that comes down to teaching style. some teachers would rather their students enjoy the early experiences of learning and the others just like to throw children in the deep end so they can watch them flail about in panic | 08:59 |
gnarface | but really, in this context, pretty much every distro is a "education version" and if you don't get why i'm saying that you're missing something fundamental and quite literal, not in any way figurative, about why Linux exists in the first place | 09:01 |
openbsdtai123 | I can make a Beowulf virtualbox DEVUAN education. Can I get a FTP to upload it? | 09:01 |
gnarface | i don't work here so that's not in my jurisdiction to say | 09:01 |
gnarface | i can recommend what has worked for other participants though; put it somewhere the developers can download it and test it, then put a link to that in the forum | 09:02 |
gnarface | there's also a forum | 09:02 |
Youbi | Hello, I’m on devuan unstable, and since yesterday (or the day before), I get a 404 not found when upgrading packages. | 09:02 |
gnarface | *i mean there's also a mailing list | 09:03 |
Youbi | The 404 is only for packages libgtk-3-common_3.24.17-1_all.deb and libxatracker2_20.0.2-1_amd64.deb | 09:03 |
openbsdtai123 | I can post it here to test it before, I have where to upload, but an bit with devuan on it sounds nicer. | 09:03 |
Youbi | Do I have a bad cache somewhere? | 09:03 |
gnarface | openbsdtai123: and i think you might be able to get a word with them in #devuan-dev, but i'm not sure if that's a safe idea until you've composed some presentation or something | 09:04 |
gnarface | Youbi: it could be your /etc/apt/sources.list file has some mistakes, but also these type of transient errors are common - and transient | 09:04 |
gnarface | Youbi: i didn't get those errors yesterday though, so mabye it's your sources.list | 09:05 |
openbsdtai123 | during this week, I will try to make it prepared. | 09:05 |
Youbi | gnarface: ok ^^ I’ll check it again | 09:05 |
gnarface | Youbi: i'm using this: | 09:05 |
gnarface | deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged ceres main | 09:05 |
gnarface | deb-src http://deb.devuan.org/merged ceres main | 09:05 |
Youbi | deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged ceres main non-free | 09:06 |
Youbi | (and same for deb-src) | 09:06 |
Youbi | Oh, thanks, trying with `deb` subdomain instead | 09:06 |
gnarface | Youbi: (note that "auto.mirror" is deprecated now and changed changed to "deb"... master is pkgmaster.devuan.org... i wasn't aware packages.devuan.org was ever a valid name) | 09:06 |
Youbi | ^^" | 09:07 |
Youbi | I should follow announces to avoid that situation :/ | 09:07 |
gnarface | Youbi: deb.devuan.org is a dns round-robin, so if one of those gives you a 404, just assume it's a temporary error unless it recurs more than twice in a row) | 09:08 |
Youbi | Ok wow, from 28 upgradable packages to 208. | 09:08 |
gnarface | there IS a known issue where you could get a 404 if you catch the mirror in mid-update of one of the files you're currently downloading | 09:08 |
gnarface | (but those are the expected transient errors) | 09:09 |
Youbi | Thanks gnarface, no more issue and a correct source.list file ^^ | 09:09 |
gnarface | (and Debian has that bug too, but with hundreds more mirrors than us, you're much less likely to catch one mid-update) | 09:10 |
i0i0i0 | hello, any news about beowulf release? | 09:15 |
gnarface | i don't know but people have already been using it | 09:16 |
i0i0i0 | it seems unstable | 09:17 |
gnarface | which definition of unstable to you mean? it's crashing a lot, or stuff changes a lot? | 09:17 |
gnarface | the latter is probably gonna be an issue for a while still | 09:18 |
gnarface | but the former issue might be addressable, since most people are using it without complaint simply by avoiding the graphical login stuff | 09:19 |
gnarface | another thing that would help is distinguishing the level of instability from your experience with the previous release (ascii) and the backports kernel for it (which is almost the same one as in beowulf currently) | 09:20 |
i0i0i0 | pulseaudio must be purged of beowulf release | 09:20 |
i0i0i0 | is a really dangerous bad copy of low-level API macOS coreaudio | 09:20 |
gnarface | can you elaborate on why? because i purged pulseaudio years ago and never looked back | 09:20 |
i0i0i0 | when things are bad programmed, is better to avoid | 09:21 |
gnarface | oh, i agree. but i mean, is the beowulf version of it doing something new and worse somehow than ascii was? that's the question that matters | 09:21 |
i0i0i0 | beowulf need new things | 09:21 |
i0i0i0 | i3wm | 09:22 |
i0i0i0 | and coming with cinnamon desktop as the default wm | 09:22 |
gnarface | oh, well, i'm pretty sure it has i3wm already | 09:22 |
i0i0i0 | i mean a customized i3wm | 09:23 |
i0i0i0 | like manjaro i3 | 09:23 |
gnarface | feel free to provide one and solicit it for inclusion | 09:23 |
gnarface | they almost certainly won't include it in the official image, but you'll find support around here if you're serious about contributing | 09:24 |
gnarface | i think someone has already done something similar about cinnamon | 09:24 |
i0i0i0 | also remove wicd | 09:25 |
i0i0i0 | in xfce | 09:25 |
gnarface | i don't know if all this stuff has been collected somewhere but i thought i remember hearing talk about a "devuan-proposed-updates" repo somewhere, with unofficial 3rd party contributions that Debian won't include upstream | 09:25 |
gnarface | heh, yea you're not gonna get rid of wicd unless you can replace it with something better (and keep in mind, it is already the "something better" that was put there to replace network-manager, so just demanding they change back to network-manager is a waste of breath) | 09:26 |
i0i0i0 | wicd is bad coded | 09:26 |
gnarface | agris: you gonna take this shit from him? | 09:26 |
gnarface | careful what you with for i0i0i0 | 09:27 |
gnarface | *wish for | 09:27 |
agris | how to denial-of-service any Devuan desktop: | 09:28 |
agris | broadcast a wifi network in range with unicode in the name | 09:29 |
gnarface | (i0i0i0, you do get that you can just uninstall anything you don't like, right? the network configuration can be entered by hand into /etc/network/interfaces - you're under no obligation to use the default desktop loadout) | 09:29 |
i0i0i0 | yes i know | 09:29 |
i0i0i0 | but this is not the point | 09:29 |
i0i0i0 | network-manager works really good | 09:29 |
i0i0i0 | and is useful and simple | 09:29 |
gnarface | no, it provably does not | 09:29 |
gnarface | and if it did, it would still be the devuan default | 09:30 |
gnarface | it is however, still in the repo, and you're welcome to use it instead if you feel like doing that to yourself | 09:30 |
debdog | lol | 09:30 |
agris | i0i0i0, if you make something better i'm sure openbsd folks would appreciate it too | 09:30 |
onefang | Choices are good, we can have both. Some of us like pulseaudio and wicd. Works fine for me. | 09:30 |
agris | wicd is just the least garbage of all the choices | 09:31 |
agris | and nobody wants to touch all that outdated python2 | 09:31 |
agris | it sucks | 09:31 |
agris | but it's what we have | 09:31 |
gnarface | i personally still like doing it the old way, by hand, so i can't actually speak much about first-hand experience with either too. | 09:31 |
agris | so we must make the best out of it | 09:31 |
gnarface | *either tool | 09:31 |
agris | gnarface, FUCK doing wifi by hand in Linux. That bullshit is so insane and still has not improved since it was first put in back in linux 2.6, not having WPA security as part of the kernel | 09:32 |
agris | wpa_supplicant is the purist form of cancer there is | 09:32 |
gnarface | agris: meh. just make your /etc/network/interfaces file only readable by root | 09:32 |
agris | I'm not even going to pretend wpa_supplicant is good | 09:32 |
gnarface | haha | 09:32 |
gnarface | to be honest i heavily avoid wifi, but i do admit, configuring it by hand is a real PITA in linux | 09:33 |
agris | it boggles my mind it still hasn't been replaced by literally anything | 09:33 |
agris | gnarface, this is how openbsd does it | 09:33 |
agris | # ifconfig wlan0 nwid mywifnetworking wpakey supersekretpassword | 09:33 |
agris | dhclient wlan0 | 09:34 |
agris | also | 09:35 |
gnarface | hmm... did i actually succeed at my first wifi config on openbsd before i did on linux? yes, i think i did actually - though it was something i later ended up blaming on the (at the time out-of-tree) pcmcia driver build process | 09:35 |
agris | try burning a multisession disk in linux without k3b | 09:35 |
gnarface | oh, i don't have a problem with that | 09:35 |
gnarface | but it did take some research | 09:35 |
agris | gnarface, also on openbsd /etc/hostname.interface | 09:35 |
gnarface | yea, that's a nice convention | 09:35 |
* onefang thinks this conversation belongs in #debianfork. | 09:36 | |
gnarface | but that would be fairly easy to simulate in linux | 09:36 |
agris | Gentoo has that too | 09:36 |
agris | via OpenRC | 09:36 |
gnarface | you're right onefang | 09:36 |
agris | but Devuan's OpenRC is still pretty broken | 09:36 |
agris | also gnarface | 09:36 |
i0i0i0 | runit rock | 09:36 |
agris | what were you talking about about? who am i "taking shit" from? | 09:36 |
gnarface | someone has provided a "gentoo-style" openrc but it's not in the official repos | 09:36 |
gnarface | agris: this all started because i0i0i0 had a list of demands including purging wicd from the distro. didn't you make wicd or am i confusing you with someone else? | 09:37 |
agris | ><i0i0i0> pulseaudio must be purged of beowulf release | 09:37 |
gnarface | agris: sorry if i dragged you into this unnecessarily | 09:37 |
gnarface | agris: oh sorry, i must have confused you with someone else that has a short a-name | 09:38 |
agris | I didn't make wicd | 09:38 |
agris | I tried hacking it at some point to try and fix the denial-of-service vuln I discovered in it | 09:39 |
agris | but gave up | 09:39 |
gnarface | oh hmmm. could that be what i'm remembering? no, but that's probably why i conflated the two nicks in my head though... | 09:39 |
i0i0i0 | wicd is designed in python, network managers must be designed with C or C++ | 09:39 |
agris | it's so overly complex bundle of old python2 | 09:39 |
agris | but everything else I know of is worse so i stick with it | 09:39 |
agris | i0i0i0, nothing wrong in of itself being not developed in c | 09:40 |
i0i0i0 | python is areally bad programming language | 09:40 |
gnarface | yea i know they only included it because it was faster for someone to make something new than to extract systemd from network-manager. later network-manager did get fixed though too, but it never regained "default" status | 09:40 |
agris | I wouldn't mind a network manager in perl | 09:40 |
agris | but when you do things like copy-paste code from stack overflow and use single-letter varibles and subroutine names is when even with the chasity belt of Python's syntax your code becomes unreadable | 09:41 |
i0i0i0 | check the wicd cpu usage and network-manager, and you will see it | 09:41 |
onefang | That's why I put th wicd GUI away after I no longer need it, it leaks. | 09:42 |
agris | leaks!? | 09:42 |
agris | are you sure about that? | 09:42 |
agris | that's weird for a python program to do that | 09:43 |
onefang | If I leave it running all day, it consumes lots of memory. | 09:43 |
agris | hmm | 09:43 |
gnarface | i0i0i0: note that it could be a non-default gtk theme engine actually leaking | 09:43 |
agris | maybe your doing something special. I have multi-month uptime on wicd | 09:43 |
agris | no leaks | 09:43 |
gnarface | some of the gtk theme engines have a history of bad leaks | 09:43 |
i0i0i0 | i've tested wicd in different scenarios | 09:44 |
i0i0i0 | and always the same cpu usage | 09:44 |
gnarface | often it gets blamed on particular programs when it's actually a buggy theme combined with a buggy engine | 09:44 |
onefang | I found that out recently, coz of the problems we have had here with Internet. Had to keep swapping between four different WiFi APs. | 09:44 |
onefang | Is that the GUI of wicd you mean? | 09:44 |
agris | well | 09:44 |
agris | one thing is for sure | 09:44 |
agris | it's not going to get fixed until it bugs one of us enough for us to do something about it | 09:45 |
onefang | The Internet should be fixed now. | 09:45 |
agris | I'm already fighting the GUI forking XFCE and gtk2 progam fight | 09:45 |
agris | I don't want to pick up the os wifi management fight | 09:46 |
agris | i've got enough on my plate | 09:46 |
agris | maybe you could fix it i0i0i0 | 09:46 |
i0i0i0 | i'm a C++ programmer | 09:46 |
agris | you only know one language? | 09:47 |
onefang | I only know one .. hundred. B-) | 09:47 |
i0i0i0 | also assembly and C | 09:48 |
gnarface | make a new one then | 09:49 |
gnarface | if you know C and C++, gtk2 should be an easy step forward | 09:49 |
i0i0i0 | i don't like to waste my time | 09:51 |
i0i0i0 | js is also really dangerous | 09:51 |
gnarface | lol what is it that you are doing right now then? | 09:51 |
gnarface | you wouldn't characterize this as a waste of your time? because it sure as fuck is a waste of mine... | 09:52 |
agris | well i0i0i0 | 09:52 |
agris | you should put your keyboard where your mouth is | 09:52 |
agris | code us up a new gtk2 network manager in C | 09:52 |
agris | I'd switch | 09:53 |
agris | if it was really good I might even buy a release | 09:53 |
agris | btw gnarface | 09:53 |
agris | I have been looking at this: https://man.sr.ht/billing-faq.md | 09:53 |
agris | check out this software | 09:54 |
i0i0i0 | why? we have network-manager designed with C | 09:54 |
agris | even works without javashit | 09:54 |
agris | integrates with automated build service and ci | 09:54 |
agris | like gitlab but without the bloat and proprietary | 09:54 |
agris | I would totally pay for something like this | 09:55 |
onefang | So use network-manager, and stop wasting time bitching about wicd. Simples. B-) | 09:55 |
agris | integrates with SMTP | 09:56 |
agris | https://builds.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/job/97412 | 10:19 |
agris | this is sweet | 10:19 |
agris | no js | 10:19 |
onefang | My turn for some support. B-) | 11:37 |
onefang | I'm running courier email for SMTP and IMAP on two different servers, both installed Devuan ASCII, both more or less configured identically. SSL works on one, but I get "No supported cipher suites have been found." on one of them. I've even run diff over the courier and OpenSSL configurations. | 11:39 |
phillipsjk | do they have the same patch level? maybe a cipher suite got depricated. | 11:40 |
onefang | Both are up to date. | 11:41 |
phillipsjk | is the server you are talking to the same? | 11:43 |
onefang | The non working one is a VM on the working one. Everything else is working, just not SSL for IMAP and SMTP. At the moment I'm running IMAP (no SSL no STARTSSL) through a ssh tunnel, that's working, so at least I get my email. | 11:45 |
* phillipsjk off to bed | 11:47 | |
onefang | G'night. | 11:47 |
Bjornn | I copied my windows efi boot file and save it away safely, then I copied my devuan efi file into that location with the windows naming convention. resolved a long time issue with having to hold down f9 to pick an OS | 18:27 |
Bjornn | one small win for mankind | 18:27 |
openbsdtai123 | a short question: In Fl_Browser, is there FL_ENTER, 'a'...'z' ? it seems that the handle() does only up/down/special 64xxx keys... :( :( | 20:40 |
meep_____ | onefang: what happened to your other fang? | 21:32 |
meep_____ | onefang: courier for smtp? Isn't that a MDA not a MTA? | 21:33 |
mason | meep_____: Courier has all kinds of bits. | 22:00 |
openbsdtai123 | Hi, BSD/devuan, this is my FLTK Explorer flrox.cxx using FLTK and vim h,j,k,l keybindings, to browse files. Basic but still interesting if you would like to adapt it for music player... | 22:50 |
openbsdtai123 | flrox.cxx : https://termbin.com/ewaq | 22:51 |
cush | thanks openbsdtai123 | 23:25 |
openbsdtai123 | I managed to make the keys hjkl working ;) | 23:26 |
cush | you help fellow man by making useful things which also teach | 23:28 |
openbsdtai123 | I would like to have some other guys working with me to replace the desktop with FLTK apps. | 23:49 |
openbsdtai123 | I planned to use only ARM as main desktop, so only FLTK is the single possibility. | 23:49 |
openbsdtai123 | If some one you would to make CVS to upload fltk small apps like that, please feel free. it shall compile with -lfltk -lm only | 23:50 |
yeti | I see no problem with XFCE on arm | 23:58 |
yeti | except of being bored with it | 23:58 |
yeti | I think all my arm board srun either GUIless or with XFCE | 23:59 |
yeti | no other DE | 23:59 |
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