libera/#devuan/ Monday, 2020-04-20

meep_____Sacioz, I crave to dot-matrix printers00:53
meep_____They are very well built, lat a long time, and are easy to fix00:53
Walexmeep_____: that's the same for most mechanical things01:05
Walexmeep_____: but that's an engineer's point of view. What matter today are the marketing and finance points of view.01:06
Walexfundametally that's also the point of view that motivated some old UNIX hands to retroactively fork Debian from Devuan :-)01:07
Walexthe idea that 'systemd' and its close relationship to DBUS have created a complicated, fragile, harder to maintain "something" at the core of the operating system.01:08
* Walex preaches to the choir :-)01:09
cushthat's important to do, tbh01:11
meep_____Are you sure that's what "matters today"? Because regardless of the age your going to need things that work and work well unless you don't expect your business to last. Also there are always going to be sleazy salesman trying to sell you something shiny built upon glue and duct tape01:13
Walexmeep_____: unfortunately most management, and their opinion is what matters, don't want "business to last01:14
Walexmeep_____: unfortunately most management, and their opinion is what matters, don't want "business to last", but grab as much as they can as quickly as they can and retire.01:14
Walexmeep_____: consider the fantastic complexity and fragility of the ineptly named "node.js" ecosystem, and delirious things like "microservices".01:15
Walexmeep_____: things like Devuan (and its 'systemd'/DBUS flavoured fork, Debian :->) are the product of the desire to engineer for the long term, but they are just a small fraction of what's happening in the IT ecosystem; e.g. Android, where most products based on it are basically abandonware by design.01:18
* Walex starts to realize that this may be seen as a "kids today" sort of argument01:19
WalexBTW I have two Ubuntu phones as a "reserve" and for some tasks an Android one, but with "ONE", that is updates from Google, so it is not as abandonware as others.01:20
meep_____Walex: it's not a "kids today" argument01:35
meep_____Just look at most companies in the 90s dotcom boom01:35
meep_____All the abandon-ware of the 90s01:35
meep_____And what we still have with us today01:35
meep_____Software like icecast01:35
meep_____Vs all those internet explorer browser toolbar addons01:36
meep_____Xchat/Hexchat01:37
meep_____Which i'm sure most of you are probably using right now01:37
meep_____And I just made an ebuild from some UNIX astronomy software originally made in 1987 to build on a modern Gentoo system01:38
meep_____With Motif01:38
meep_____The API stability of libnova astounds me01:38
meep_____I guess you built it right the first time you don't have to keep rebuilding the same thing every vew months/years01:39
cushyes01:39
meep_____ https://upload.nuegia.net/f1949f91-f268-47c6-8b7c-453c5eec024b/screenshot.png01:40
golinuxPlease take this chatter to #debianfork01:40
golinuxThanks01:40
cushmeep_____: looks neat02:31
mcrIt sounds like beowulf is getting closer to release?03:40
Xenguymcr: People are saying beowulf is quite stable, but I haven't tried it yet myself.04:06
XenguyThere may be issues with the installer still, but dist-upgrade from Ascii should be as expected...04:08
XenguyThere are doubtless how-to's around and about.04:08
mcrcool. I had tried a dist-upgrade about a month ago, but the repo didn't exist yet :-)04:17
mcrI won't upgrade now, because I don't have time to cope with any issues... and gosh, I'd have to restart my X-server.04:17
mcrobiwan-[~](2.6.5) mcr 10003 %uptime04:17
mcr 22:17:35 up 252 days,  9:14, 37 users,  load average: 0.53, 0.41, 0.5004:17
mcr:-) :-)04:18
masonmcr: I run Beowulf in a bunch of different roles. It's quite usable and stable.04:21
mcrgood. I will upgrade this week, but just not exactly now.04:28
mcrI just stubbed my toe on not having python >3.6...04:29
meep_____I don't care for beowulf04:40
meep_____they moved a lot of useful applications to gtk304:41
meep_____so they are slower and themes break and look like something from apple ios 604:41
golinuxThis ^^^  :(04:47
meep_____Somebody (probably me) is going to have to fork Thunar04:47
meep_____While I am at it too04:48
meep_____Fork xfce core utils04:48
cushi didn't notice things breaking with gtk apps04:48
cushbesides my theme integration being a PITA every time04:48
meep_____That way they won't require elogind for power management04:48
meep_____cush: gtk3 theming is broken beyond all repair04:49
cushi have a nice dark setup now, somehow04:49
cushafter doing lots of stuf i don't remember04:49
meep_____Gnome ripped out the old theming system and replaced it with a bastardized version of css04:49
cushah04:49
cushyeah qt does something similar?04:50
meep_____Nah04:50
meep_____You can use qt5-style-plugin to apply gtk2 themes to qt seemlessly04:50
cushis gimp still gtk2?04:50
meep_____I strongly advocate throwing out all gtk3 stuff and sticking with gtk+qt504:50
meep_____Yes04:50
meep_____So is libreoffice04:51
cushthose work nice04:51
meep_____And gmusicbrowser04:51
meep_____ยป [19:51:07] <cush> those work nice04:51
meep_____probably because they didn't switch to gtk304:51
cushyou any good with gstreamer?04:51
cush:)04:51
meep_____Not gstreamer but ffmpeg04:51
cushi could chase people down the street with gstreamer questions04:51
cushok04:51
cushnice04:51
cushi got ffplay accelerated for some things on jetson nano04:52
cushbut i still don't have solid 720p playback04:52
cushit's a sorry state with these gpu issues on arm linux04:52
cushbut i'm thinkin of going to wayland04:53
meep_____prolly not a good idea05:09
meep_____mpv has a really good interface for accelerated ffmpeg video05:09
cushyeah but sadly not possible on jetson nano05:10
cushffmpeg not supported05:10
meep_____what?05:10
meep_____lmfao05:11
meep_____thanks for letting me know05:11
meep_____I will never buy a jetson05:11
meep_____if that is the case05:11
meep_____hey btw05:12
cushi was looking at odroid N2 - nice nice but, no gpu for X1105:12
meep_____I don't think it's out of the ordinary05:12
meep_____cush: I have a 6th generation Bronxton intel igpu05:12
meep_____if I load the guc with firmware the hardware hangs and crashes05:12
meep_____and the guc is needed to activate x265 hardware decoding05:13
meep_____so I think it's just an intel thing where intel is just really bad at hardware codec accel05:13
cushhrmph05:13
meep_____good thing it's fast enough for software x265 decoding, but I can't transcode 4k x265 realtime05:14
meep_____just 1080P05:14
cushmhm my cortex a57s aren't really solid above 480p05:15
meep_____I've seen people with amd gpus05:17
meep_____even older small ones meant for workstation use05:17
meep_____they have pretty good hardware decoders05:17
golinuxPlease take non-support chatter to #debianfork05:17
cushyeh well if i learn a bit of wayland i should be fine05:17
cushrunning xapps in xnest or whatever05:18
golinuxPlease . . .05:18
meep_____are you sure there's no ffmpeg support or just the version your using has it compiled out05:18
golinuxThanks05:19
ulletNo package 'gnome-vfs-2.0' found10:50
ulletah it's old11:34
ShorTieblaaa, E: Couldn't find these debs: libncurses-dev16:50
ShorTieis that not a valid package for ascii amd64 ??16:51
ShorTiei need libncurses.so16:51
D-HUNDmayhap libnurses5-dev?16:56
D-HUNDwell, with out typos but with the "5"16:56
fsmithredapt-file says libncurses-dev: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libncurses.so16:58
fsmithredhow are you trying to find it? (sorry, it's libncurses5-dev in ascii.)17:00
ulletwhy is the .so in the -dev17:01
fsmithred'cause that's the way debian does it17:01
fsmithredbeen like that for a long time17:02
ulletoh well i don't have to understand everything17:02
fsmithredif you look hard enough, you can probably find the reason they decided to do it that way17:03
ShorTiei get libncurses-dev when doing arm64, but not for amd6417:04
ShorTiedebootstrap just can't find it .. :/~17:05
debdogShorTie: https://packages.debian.org/search?searchon=contents&keywords=libncurses.so&mode=filename&suite=oldstable&arch=any17:05
ShorTieit found it with the 5, Thankz17:07
ulletapt-file search libncurses.so17:14
ulletlibncurses-dev: /usr/lib/aarch64-linux-gnu/libncurses.so17:14
ulleton arm here17:14
ShorTieso it seems like it is a ascii thing, as switching to beowulf has fixed things18:09
ShorTieThankz Guys for the help18:09
ulletif i'd have been in charge here, i'd have used 'unicode' instead of 'beowulf'18:46
furrywolfand what, ebcdic next year?  :P18:46
DonkeyHoteithere is no solar system object named ebcdic afaik18:47
ullet:)18:47
ulletone could also use great works of literature as theme18:47
ulleti have completed my first dpkg-buildpackage in a few years18:48
ulletfrom my own project18:48
ulletwew lots of things can go wrong18:48
MinceRis Unicode a great work of literature? :>18:48
ulleti think beowulf is and that die is cast18:49
furrywolfno one's named an asteroid ebcdic, even though we have an ascii?  no love for ibm?  :P18:52
MinceRno love for ibm, especially now18:53
ulletwhat did ibm do?18:58
golinuxullet: Devuan distro names are chosen from the list of minor planet names.18:58
MinceRthey obtained card-carrying apple shill status, then bought redhat and had redhat continue everything as before18:58
golinuxPlease take this OT to #debianfork18:59
golinuxhttps://minorplanetcenter.net//iau/lists/MPNames.html19:00
golinuxChimaera will follow Beowulf19:00
golinuxullet: You are over 5 years late to that decision19:01
golinuxto use minor planet names.  Please troll elsewhere.19:01
furrywolfI'm pretty sure they were making a joke, not trolling.19:03
golinuxNot doing a very good job and OT for this channel anyway.19:04
masonEither way, only support here, social (or antisocial) chatter, next channel over.19:04
furrywolfI thought it was somewhat funny.  unicode did come after ascii, and everything...19:05
golinuxIt is stupid and OT and a disregard for Devuan19:06
golinuxAnd posted on the wrong channel.19:06
meep_____ullet: IBM DID NOTHING WRONG19:21
meep_____No jk19:21
GLAT-agentCHEAP GNU/LINUX LICENSES $49 SINGLE USER20:51
GLAT-agentPM TO PURCHASE20:51
telst4rlul, trying to SCO us, eh?20:52
bgstack15I'll sell you a GNU/Linux license for only $39/workstation, no artificial user limitations! (Uses pam, though)20:54
invalidlicensedYou are running non-genuine GNU/Linux copy. PM to purchase a license.21:30
ulletmy 640kB brain forgot how to make debian packages and relearning is painful as it pushes out other knowledge21:31
systemdleteI have installed a wireless pci card, but lspci does not seem to show it.  I see 3 ethernet cards listed, which is correct (one on the board, plus 2 nics I added).  But the wireless nic does not show in lspci.  I am running ascii with all the latest updates.  lshw does not show it either.21:32
systemdleteullet:  Did you reboot your brain before you started making packages?  That might clear the page tables and help you concentrate.21:35
systemdleteIf that doesn't work, try pushing a pencil into your left ear while holding your breath and pinching your nose.  That should reset everything.21:36
ulletthis sounds like a plan systemdlete21:37
ulletto your problem, i haven't had to deal with pci network cards and linux in a couple of decades so all i can think of is to check for driver support for that particular card21:37
ulletbe sure the appropriate kernel module is loaded21:38
masonsystemdlete: Any hint of it in dmesg?21:39
systemdleteonly once!21:39
systemdleteit says it is renaming wlan0 to wlx08863b02309721:39
systemdlete(I think that's its mac address)21:39
masonsystemdlete: What's the model of card?21:40
systemdleteI have forgotten.  I obtained it years ago, and I don't even remember how.21:41
systemdleteI'd have to shutdown, take it out, and try to decipher whatever little shrift is there.21:41
systemdleteIt is a pci-e and it is for wireless ac21:42
systemdleteIt seems to load the rtl8192c driver, if that helps any21:42
systemdleteI can rmmod it, so it is not likely being used by the other nics, which are all active.21:43
systemdlete(active, I mean "up" in ifconfig speak)21:43
ulleti only can suggest basic problem bisecting21:44
systemdleteI opened the case, and I can shine a flashlight on it... there's enough space to almost see what it says.  D-link21:46
systemdleteI will attempt a picture with my smart phone then try to decode that...21:47
bgstack15ullet: I've been dealing with building dpkgs a lot recently. PM me if you want some help. Basically, you start with a debmake in source dir, adjust debian/ contents, and hit "debuild -us -uc"21:48
ulletbgstack15: i think adapting an old broken debian/ control dir ended up creating more work for me, but now i got the problem licked, i think21:49
masonsystemdlete: Once you've shriven it we can identify a driver and any specific issues.21:54
systemdleteI'm shriving right now... having trouble getting the right angle...21:55
fsmithredsystemdlete, maybe running update-pciids would help21:56
systemdletefsmithred:  Did that, thanks.  But still no sign of the card.22:01
fsmithredand nothing else around the lines where it got renamed?22:02
systemdleteinteresting... now I am seeing additional messages, later in the boot.  The second time it is mentioned, it says it is loading firmware for it...22:04
TwistedFatewhat's the devuan beowulf live user password?22:04
systemdletehttp://paste.debian.net/1141629/22:05
systemdleteSo, it looks like /var/log/dmesg only has dmesg output up to a point; after that I have to go to the dmesg program to get info?22:07
systemdletethe /var/log/dmesg file only has 960 lines in it.22:07
systemdletesame as the first 960 lines of dmesg output I see22:07
systemdletebut that's a different issue22:08
systemdleteI don't get why my wireless card is pulling in usb code?22:09
systemdletewhat is rtl_usb exactly?22:09
systemdlete(momentary internet fart coming up, sorry...)22:12
fsmithredTwistedFate, devuan:devuan root:toor22:14
fsmithred1.995923] usb usb9: Product: OHCI PCI host controller22:17
fsmithred[    2.081609] usb 1-2: Product: Belkin Wireless Adapter22:18
fsmithred[    2.081610] usb 1-2: Manufacturer: Realtek22:18
systemdleteRight, I forgot about that one.  sorry22:18
systemdleteTHat is a usb dongle wireless N.22:19
systemdleteSo that's prob what the rtl-usb is for.22:19
systemdletecould it be that both the pci-e card AND the dongle are using the same driver somehow?22:19
systemdleteI think I need to shut this thing down and remove the card and get the info from it...22:21
systemdleteThat way we at least have positive information.22:21
fsmithredI don't really understand OHCI PCI host controller22:21
fsmithredusb-pci converter of some sort?22:21
fsmithredoh, that's the dongle22:22
systemdleteI think so22:22
systemdleteIt's not the pcie card22:22
systemdleteLet me reboot.  I'll bbs22:22
* systemdlete kicks himself for not having done this to start with...22:23
TwistedFatewhat the heck??22:24
TwistedFatechroot: not found22:24
fsmithredin beowulf?22:24
fsmithreduse 'su -' instead of 'su'22:25
fsmithredor use the full path to the command22:25
fsmithredor fix root's path using one of several possible methods22:26
TwistedFatethanks fsmithred22:27
systemdleteWell, this time when I rebooted, the device shows up!22:44
systemdleteI didn't fully remove it.  I started to, then realized I'd have to remove and replace the antennae, and that's a nuisance with all the cables in the back of the box.22:45
systemdleteBut I did carefully scribe all the info on the card.  It's DWA-582 and it's the rt8812AE (from the label on the card)22:46
masonsystemdlete: So, this Belkin business... Is it a USB controller on a PCI card with a wifi card hardwired to it or somesuch?22:46
systemdletestrangely, the module it loads is NOT *8812* but rather rtl8821ae22:46
systemdletemason:  No, it is an entirely separate item.  That one is a USB dongle supporting wireless N.  Please ignore that part.22:47
masonkk22:47
systemdletesorry, I had forgotten that part originally22:47
systemdleteAnd I don't plan on running both simultaneously.  I am really only experimenting with this card.  I am using the USB N for the time being.22:48
systemdleteI am hoping the AC adapter will blast my wifi into the bathroom, where I spend some of my best thinking time.22:48
systemdleteRight now, the USB N dongle reaches, but it becomes a weak signal, and sometimes craps out completely.22:49
systemdleteThat's really annoying.  Then I have to find something to read instead... and while I like Neibuhr, I sometimes want to do some internet research instead.22:50
masonsystemdlete: I'm not finding anything useful. I see AU drivers, but not AE.22:51
ulletThe Machine Stops by E.M. Forster is a short story worth reading systemdlete22:51
systemdleteullet:  Thanks for that.  Is it online?  Or do I have to make homage to King Bezos?22:52
systemdlete(ie, buy the book)22:52
masonsystemdlete: Worst case, there's always stuff like ndiswrapper and the Windows drivers: https://www.realtek.com/en/component/zoo/category/rtl8812ae-software22:52
ulletno it's online, all over22:53
systemdletethanks, ullet.22:53
masonThat said, I'd go for a better USB adapter, myself.22:53
ullettry to not read too much /about it/ first22:53
systemdletemason: I thought ndiswrapper support was jettisoned in linux a while back?22:53
masonsystemdlete: Stable release a year ago. Dunno. I've never used it.22:53
ulletbut keep in mind it was published in 1908 or thereabouts22:53
systemdleteullet: did my "technical support" help you?   BTW, be sure to use the eraser end of the pencil, OK?22:55
systemdletemason: There was probably a popular revolt and they were forced to bring it back and support it I'm figuring.  OK, that is a thought, and I have used it in the past.  It's a bit of a pain to set up though.22:57
masonsystemdlete: It's just odd that I'm finding no reference to your hardware at all.22:57
systemdletemaybe they only made one of them and quit22:58
ulletpencils are not useful ear-tools.  knives, scissors, and Bic pen-caps are.22:58
masonI don't think Realtek makes any less than three billion of anything.22:58
systemdletethis card has 2 pretyty long (6") antennae, plus it can get power from the PS.  I feel that a USB AC dongle won't have the same reach.  But I am not expert on this.22:59
ulleti had an alfa usb dongle with antenna connector.  got stolen22:59
systemdleteullet:  Don't use any of those!   You could permanently damage whatever delicate circuitry you might have inside.  And last I checked, you can't get a replacement for that "component."  (and why don't you upgrade for pete sake?)23:00
systemdleteAh, now there's a thought!   A usb wireless that has antennae.  Maybe I'll look for that.  But this "thing" was laying around here and was just screaming to get used.23:02
systemdletegotta reboot now...23:03
systemdletehttp://paste.debian.net/1141646/23:09
systemdleteNow, after warm reboot, there are messages not there before.  It has trouble loading some of the code.23:10
fsmithredsystemdlete, I see wlan0 and wlan1. Are they both connected? Looks like both are realtek.23:15
fsmithredis the pci wireless card new hardware? Have you tried it with a newer kernel?23:15
systemdleteWhen you say "connected" what do you mean?  The pci-e card is of course connected, as to the mainboard.  The dongle is connected via usb23:16
fsmithredattached23:16
fsmithredok23:16
fsmithredI thought you were going to pull the card23:16
fsmithredfirmware-realtek is installed?23:17
systemdleteIt had better be, given that the rt8821ae module is loaded -- that would be a package dep I'd think?23:17
systemdleteAnd yes it lives in /lib/firmware/rtlwifi23:18
systemdlete(both actually)23:18
fsmithredok23:18
fsmithredsome realtek devices work even if the non-free firmware is not installed23:18
fsmithredyou usually get a warning that firmware may be missing in that case.23:19
fsmithredI would try a beowulf live-iso23:19
systemdleteso are the modules in /lib/firmware/rtlwifi free or non-free?23:19
fsmithrednot sure23:20
systemdletewhen beowulf goes GA, I'll try that.  I prefer to wait for now.23:20
systemdleteI'm searching for help now on how to debug failed module load23:20
fsmithredexcept for the installer media, beowulf is ready23:20
systemdletebut it is not officially released23:21
fsmithredright23:21
systemdleteI'm conservative23:21
systemdleteIt sounds like it will be very soon, and I am willing to be patient for that.23:21
fsmithredI'll check for that directory on two laptops23:21
systemdletethanks, fsmithred23:22
systemdleteare you going to check on ascii or beowulf?23:22
systemdleteascii is more relevant, atm23:22
fsmithredascii23:22
systemdletegreat, thanks again23:22
fsmithredthat dir does not exist on the intel laptop but does exist on the one with realtek wireless23:23
systemdletethat makes sense23:23
fsmithredso yeah, that coes with the non-free firmware23:23
fsmithredcomes23:23
fsmithredI was suggesting beowulf live-iso as a test. The firmware is already installed.23:24
systemdleteI could move the card to my testbox and fool around with beowulf23:24
fsmithredboot it and run lspci, ip a, iwconfig or whatever else you want23:24
systemdletelspci shows the card now, fsmithred.  That isn't the issue.23:24
fsmithredoh23:24
fsmithredwhat's the issue?23:25
systemdleteThe question, really, is why those modules are not loading (2 *.bin files)23:25
fsmithreddoes the interface work?23:25
systemdleteOTOH, maybe it will still work.23:25
fsmithredmaybe they aren't needed23:25
systemdleteright, like you said previously...23:26
systemdletertl8821ae is loaded, so it seems ready23:26
systemdleteI'll try it.23:26
fsmithredI have 23 .bin files in that directory23:26
systemdleteyes, but how many are for 8821?23:27
systemdletethe boot is only trying to load 2 of them, and fails both23:27
systemdleteMost of them seem to be for 8192 variants of all sorts23:27
fsmithredonly one has 8821 in the name23:27
fsmithredno, two23:28
systemdleteOn mine, the last two listed23:28
systemdleteok23:28
fsmithredthey fail if you manually load them?23:29
systemdletedidn't try that23:29
systemdletewhat is the magic for loading firmware (bin) files?23:30
systemdleteJust wondering about usb wireless... wouldn't that be slower than pci-e?23:31
systemdletethey'd both be 802.11ac, but maybe the bus speeds are different23:31
systemdleteidk about these things really23:31
fsmithredmodprobe -v rtl8821  then TAB is what I would do23:34
systemdletefile /lib/firmware/rtlwifi/* shows they are data files23:34
systemdletefsmithred, as I said, the modules are all loaded.  It's those bin files that fail to load23:34
fsmithredmight be 'modprobe realtek'23:34
fsmithredoh23:35
systemdletelol23:35
fsmithredunload and reload module23:35
systemdleteand you say that will also load the firmware as well?23:35
fsmithredit has in some cases23:35
fsmithredI've had to do that sometimes when installing firmware23:35
fsmithredmodprobe -r realtek23:36
fsmithredmodprobe realtek   (add -v if you want it to talk to you)23:37
systemdletewell modprobe realtek did not load the 8821 drivers23:38
systemdletebut modprobe rtl8821ae does23:38
systemdletebut how can I confirm that those firmware files got loaded?23:39
fsmithredsee if the wireless works23:40
systemdleteseems that might be the only  way, yes...23:41
fsmithredyou have a desktop and a network manager of some kind, or is this console only?23:41
systemdleteI am using /etc/networking/interfaces to configure my workbox.  The wlan0 does come up (I can tell it is the pci-e card, not the usb dongle, mac address!)23:42
systemdleteI just need to configure the card so that it broadcasts a SSID, etc23:43
fsmithredtime for food. bbl.23:46
systemdletethanks for your help, and it does work23:50

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