libera/#devuan/ Sunday, 2020-11-08

suavedandyI'm bacc.00:51
MinceRhi bacc, i'm dad00:52
* suavedandy giggles00:52
suavedandyI wanted to set up a window manager.00:53
suavedandyShould I install Xorg first? Or does it bring unnecessary bloat with it?00:54
suavedandyThe xorg metapackage.00:54
suavedandyI mean, Xorg gets installed as a dep anyway.00:54
suavedandyLike, all WMs depend on the Xserver.00:55
suavedandyAnd display managers.00:55
rennjhttps://www.devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/en/minimal-xorg-install.html00:57
rennjnote the intel nvidia amd drivers00:58
rennjyou want less bloat dont install unneeded drivers00:58
rennjless bloat install a window manager and not a Desktop Environment00:59
rennjtwm,mwm,fvwm vs xfce,kde,gnome00:59
rennjfonts same deal01:00
rennjfor over decade i do kernel/firmware/gnu coreutils/xorg/vmware player 128MB - 360MB.iso01:04
rennjsoon 500MB!01:04
rennjin-memory ramos poor mans version of vmware esxi with vcenter01:05
rennjback when vcenter required winblows box01:05
golinuxIs there a support question in there?01:07
rennjgatekeeper!01:07
rennjwant less bloat go embedded buildroot01:07
rennjdump the gnu glibc01:07
rennjmusl uclibc01:07
rennjperhaps redhats newlibc01:08
rennjhehe01:08
golinuxYeah.  Maybe take your rant to OT01:09
masonTo be fair, rennj was answering suavedandy's question about achieving less bloat, maybe just taken to endgame. :P01:11
masonsuavedandy: The best way to avoid bloat is generally to install with --no-install-recommends.01:11
rennjgatekeeper doesnt care about that01:11
rennjthis is repeated pattern01:11
rennjfacts dont matter01:11
rennjheh01:11
masonrennj: Suggesting a different libc might have been pursuing the goal with an unusual amount of zeal.01:12
rennjyou want less bloat you got to make choices..01:12
masonI think --no-install-recommends is the best balance of effort and reward at persent. He's already skipping a desktop environment, which is a good move.01:15
rennjopenbsd6.8 is bloat free for sure01:15
rennjand comes with a compiler01:16
rennjlike 1.5GB01:16
rennjnice unice for size and time period we live in01:16
rennjwhats slackware like 6GB01:16
rennjmy ramos is 360Mb.iso 1.2GB unsquashfs01:17
rennjno compiler01:17
masonrennj: Ah, you should be in #devuan-offtopic just to idle. I went to reply to the Slackware thing there, but you weren't there.01:17
rennjtinycore linux is what 14MB01:18
rennjonce i switch to kvm/qemu and dump vmware01:18
rennjill be good01:18
masonSlackware weighs in well north of 6GB, FWIW.01:18
rennjwithout tex/tcl/tk/games/kde01:19
masonkk01:19
rennjjust enough os01:19
rennjremember jeos01:19
rennjjust enough os to run everything else in a vm, or lxc container01:19
masonSo, *I'd* be more comfortable talking about it in #devuan-offtopic, since I'm in there and I agree with keeping the main channel on-topic. That said, I'm going to go have dinner, so I'll be back in a bit.01:20
rennjvmware and joyent smartos only onces doing it01:20
rennjproxmox01:32
suavedandyOkay, I went with rennj's instructions.01:47
rennjnot mine, that the link i googled01:48
rennjgoogle for you!01:48
suavedandyApparently, even with --without-recommends xorg metapackage still pulls some nouveue stuff.01:48
rennjgoogle : devuan xorg minimal install01:49
rennjyeah nouveue is needed01:49
rennjrust compile is my guess01:49
suavedandyWell, I have Intel Integrated Graphics Registered Trademark.01:49
rennji removed libvouveue and xorg breaks01:49
rennjim talking about the build of the binarys01:50
rennjmesa or something01:50
rennjsome libs are linked in01:50
rennjand even if you dont have nvidia hardware you still need some libs01:50
suavedandyNo, it, like, pulled xserver-xorg-video-nouveue01:50
suavedandySure I set switches correctly.01:51
suavedandyI did -Ry.01:51
suavedandy-R for --without-recommends.01:51
suavedandyAnd -y for self-explanatory lazy trick.01:51
suavedandyBut the method above works.01:52
rennjlike libLLVM you cant avoid some things01:52
suavedandyNo nouveue drivers.01:52
rennji have no nouveue driver01:52
rennjand i still have to have libnouveue01:52
rennjdo you understand!!!!!!01:52
rennjdo you understand!!!!!!01:52
suavedandyMe too.01:52
rennjand i still have to have libnouveue01:52
rennjbecause the compile most likely01:52
suavedandylibnouveue201:52
suavedandyThe only nouveue package I have right now.01:53
suavedandyTho Rust I don't have.01:53
suavedandyI don't make stuff with Rust.01:53
rennjlibcuda/libvulkan there is bunch of things going to pull in other things01:54
suavedandyAlthough I heard some packages depend on it.01:54
rennjdll hell01:55
suavedandyLel.01:55
suavedandyIt's like Windows all over again.01:55
rennjalways go back to static compiling, vs this dynamic mess01:55
rennjwhy nix/guix declarative build systems01:56
suavedandyI prefer sticking to binary repos.01:56
rennjreproducible build system01:56
rrqplease move chit-chat to #devuan-offtopic01:57
suavedandyI wasn't chit-chatting.01:57
suavedandyNot me.01:57
suavedandyI was just passing by.01:57
golinuxAre you talking about libnouveau?02:10
golinuxIf so, would help to spell it correctly.  suavedandy ^^^02:33
suavedandyThe package is called libnouveue202:34
suavedandy"2" may be just a version number.02:34
suavedandy*libnouveau202:35
suavedandygolinux: Come on, noone can spell this darn package correctly.02:35
suavedandyIt's a mess of a name.02:35
suavedandylibnewwauw02:35
suavedandylibneuwu02:36
* suavedandy uwus to furrywolf02:39
golinuxBasic French02:40
furrywolfawoo!02:40
suavedandyOwO02:40
golinuxSounds like that needs to move to #offtopic . . . please02:41
suavedandyBasic French. Which I never learned.02:41
suavedandygolinux: We barely said anything.02:42
golinuxActually you said nothing.02:43
golinuxtake it to the right place.02:43
* suavedandy shrugs02:44
clortatlas shrugged04:17
* Xenguy really despises Ayn Rand ...04:47
masonI do too, but in #devuan-offtopic.04:52
* golinux sends mason a hug for trying04:56
masonOh, you're not over there! I've decided it's a relatively useful channel.04:59
clortgofundme steals money now09:27
suavedandyI still don't understand why OpenRC can't stop anacron.17:34
gnarfaceonly anacron?17:36
suavedandyYeah.17:37
gnarfaceweird17:37
gnarfaceany error?17:37
suavedandyIt says action "start" is meaningless.17:37
suavedandy*"stop"17:37
gnarfaceoh17:37
gnarfacewhat if you don't specify any action?17:37
gnarfacedoes it print the available actions?17:38
suavedandyIt says this when I shut down.17:38
suavedandyI don't specify anything.17:38
gnarfacehuh17:38
gnarfacethat's weird, sounds like a bug, but maybe one that's easy to fix17:38
gnarfaceeither it's calling the wrong action, or the action is missing17:38
gnarfaceactually stopping anacron should be easy17:39
suavedandyIt also finds "resolvable dependency loops" on startup.17:39
gnarfacei don't know crap about openrc, sorry17:39
gnarfacewell i know a little, but nothing that would help with this17:39
suavedandyApparently, those "resolvable dependency loops" are connected to encryption.17:40
gnarfaceif it were just a plain sysvinit install i'd know where to go to check what's not working for anacron17:41
gnarfacei think17:41
gnarfacefor openrc first thing you need to do is figure out if it's dependent on sysvinit or not17:41
gnarfacesysvinit might be the thing actually starting up and shutting down17:41
gnarfacebut there's another way to setup openrc where it's working alone17:42
suavedandyOpenRC replaces SysV-RC, not SysVinit.17:42
gnarfaceif you figure that out, it should be easier to search for documentation17:42
suavedandyIt's not an init system. Still depends on SysVinit.17:43
gnarfacewell, can you tell if it's calling /etc/init.d/anacron ?17:43
suavedandyGimme a sec. Need to turn off LightDM.17:44
gnarfacei'm not 100% sure that would be the exact name but it would be a script in that directory17:45
gnarfacei'm using /etc/init.d/cron, here17:46
gnarfaceit's Vixie Cron17:47
gnarfacewhen you find the script you should be able to call it by hand to get the same output17:49
ShorTiei'd 'grep anacron /etc' to find all, might be hiding in rc.d or where not, if me17:50
suavedandyHow do I prevent a daemon from autostarting?17:51
XenguyIt's been quite awhile actually, but I think this is one way:17:57
Xenguy# whatis update-rc.d17:57
Xenguyupdate-rc.d (8)      - install and remove System-V style init script links17:57
gnarfaceyea the easiest way is to use update-rc.d to manipulate the symlinks17:58
XenguyNot sure if there are less low-level methods currently (there used to be)17:58
gnarfacei'm not sure if openrc wouldn't have something separate18:00
onefangsysv-conf-rc?18:00
Xenguyonefang: That rings a bell, but I don't see it as a devuan package anymore.18:04
onefangEr sysv-rc-conf I meant.  lol18:05
XenguyLooks like 'rcconf' is still around18:06
ShorTieya, sysv-rc-conf is preaty cool, easier then update-rc.d18:08
XenguyYep, sysv-rc-conf is still around too, yay.  Those are the only 2 that I'm aware off, besides update-rc.d itself18:08
furrywolfI always forget what the tools are or how to use them, and twiddle the symlinks.18:10
onefangThough I found out recently the hard way that sysv-rc-conf doesn't update the /etc/init.d/.depend.* files, you need to run insserv for that.18:10
suavedandyAlright. I figured this out. Just removed LightDM from the default runlevel with rc-update.18:17
gnarfaceah, that is probably the right thing to do, use the openrc tool18:24
gnarfaceupdate-rc.d is the sysvinit tool18:24
suavedandygnarface: Restarting cron did absolutely nothing.18:51
suavedandyRestarted just fine.18:52
masonsuavedandy: When I reported the bug recently where OpenRC was using the wrong flag to start-stop-daemon, it turns out that OpenRC ships their own and it's not a 100% match. I wouldn't be wholly surprised if this was related.18:54
suavedandyShorTie: "grep anacron /etc" complains that /etc is a directory.18:54
suavedandyShould I install OpenRC from backports?18:55
ShorTiegrep -r anacron /etc , Sorry18:56
suavedandyWell, the only reference for anacron I found was in crontab.18:59
ShorTieya, me 2, some  test -x /usr/sbin/anacron19:00
suavedandyThere is no /usr/bin/anacron tho.19:00
ShorTiesounds like it is not installed19:01
suavedandyYeah, it's not.19:02
ShorTiei'd install mlocate, updatedb and locate bin/anacron19:02
ShorTiesee if sbin or bin, as mines lookin for sbin19:03
suavedandyGood news.19:04
suavedandyInstalled anacron, one problem solved.19:04
suavedandyThe other problem left.19:04
suavedandyAppArmor fails to stop when shutting down.19:05
suavedandyHow do I view the shutdown logs?19:05
ShorTiei'd dp the grep thingy for AppArmor/apparmor19:13
ShorTiegrep id case sensative, without flag19:14
suavedandyThere are /etc/apparmor.d/, /etc/apparmor and /etc/init.d/apparmor.19:17
suavedandyAnd yes, Aptitude shows that AppArmor is installed.19:18
suavedandyWhy would it not? It's Debian's SELinux.19:18
suavedandyIt's installed by default.19:19
ShorTielook in /etc/init.d/apparmor for stop/start/...  i'd guess19:20
ShorTieSELinux is not a defualt thing i think19:21
suavedandyIt isn't.19:21
suavedandyIt's CentOS/Fedora's thing.19:21
ShorTieneeds install/setup or sumfin19:21
suavedandyInstalling SELinux on Debian is finnicky.19:22
suavedandyThere is "start|stop…" in /etc/init.d/apparmor, yes.19:23
suavedandyShould I try to stop it?19:24
suavedandy"No profiles have been unloaded."19:28
suavedandy"Unloading profiles will leave already running processes permanently unconfined, which can lead to unexpected situations."19:30
suavedandyThat's the problem.19:30
suavedandyAppArmor refuses to stop.19:30
ShorTiesortta sounds like it is not setup right to me19:31
suavedandyIt is not set up at all.19:31
suavedandyI didn't fiddle with AppArmor.19:32
ShorTiesounds like it needs to stop stuff before it can actually stop19:32
suavedandyWell, what do I do?19:33
ShorTieah, set it up maybe ??19:33
suavedandyHow?19:33
suavedandyLike I know how to use AppArmor.19:34
ShorTieSorry, got me, never used it19:34
ShorTieMr.Google most likely knows howto19:34
suavedandyOkay, grepped dmesg.19:40
suavedandyapparmor="STATUS" operation="profile_load" profile="unconfined" name="/usr/sbin/haveged" pid=1935 comm="apparmor_parser"19:50
suavedandySame for /usr/bin/man19:51
suavedandychronyd too.19:51
suavedandymsmtp19:52
suavedandylightdm-guest-session19:52
suavedandyAll of them have profiles set to "unconfined" for whatever reason.19:53
suavedandyI don't get it.19:55
suavedandyI… I don't even know what to do by this point.21:04
unixbsddebootstrap pkgmaster is broken?22:02
unixbsdSince this morning the debootsrap on ascii on amd64 and i386 fails. it is broken.22:02
unixbsdI tried pkgmaster and other localcountry sever. what is going on with the main server?22:03
unixbsdit fails now still at libhogweed4 and previously it failed at bash: couldnd download packages. is a fix possible?22:03
unixbsdplease help to get http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged healthy again. thank you very much.22:04
rrqmeanwhile you could use deb.devuan.org perhaps22:04
unixbsdwhich one is the mother one, non broken�?22:06
unixbsdSbdy told me that pkgmaster is the main one...22:06
rrqdeb.devuan.org is the mirrors collection; all rsyncing from pkgmaster22:08
rrqall of them are transiently broken while updating22:08
unixbsdsounds  a big general break down of the server pkg... man serious stuff22:09
rrqI'm checking if it's something more than that22:09
unixbsdit is like this since this morning. yestersday and days  agoo, the pkgs were fine and working.22:12
rrqI can see it's slow at serving Packages files22:18
rrqthe weekly "major update" was 8h ago; not sure what it was, but some mirrors are still getting updated.22:21
unixbsdfor file server, usually i use freebsd, it has a stable networking stack. With linux, it can be up and down with file serving.22:24
unixbsdno no ... it is still not working22:28
unixbsdcouldnt not find sed package22:29
unixbsdcould not find coreutils22:29
unixbsdpkgmaster is not working. missing packages, sometimes even major ones.22:29
unixbsdmaybe a way would be to give a static DVD work around like pkgmaster.static.devuan.org  <-- this one would be at least stable... like the dvd iso.22:30
unixbsdon /var/www/... of the server. unpack the dvd and it is fine, as a possible work around that would offer a stable deboostrap server at least.22:31
unixbsdboth tests now, just failed on pkgmaster :( for i386 and amd64.22:32
rrqmmm can't find any reason "internally" on devuan's infra23:22
rrqbut there's some b/w limiter for me somewhere in between me and there23:23
rrqequally bad with ipv4 as ipv623:29
rrqEU-AUS, and EU-US both probe at about 250 kB/s for me23:40
suavedandyDamn it. LightDM demands ConsoleKit.23:41
bbucciantihi people!23:51
bbucciantiI have a problem with ceres23:51
gnarfacecommon23:52
bbucciantiI installed beowulf and then migrated to ceres23:52
gnarfaceso far, still common23:52
bbucciantibut dist-upgrade seems to have removed some programs23:52
bbucciantifor example, I use dvorak as a default keymap23:53
bbucciantibut on the next boot, it doesn't work with dvorak23:53
gnarfaceyep, common23:53
gnarfaceit's part of the development process23:53
gnarfaceideally, you'd be paying attention to what it wants to remove, and just not upgrade while it wants to remove something important23:53
bbucciantiouch23:54
bbucciantiwhat can I do?23:54
gnarfaceif you're lucky and still have the old versions in your cache you can probably roll back easy23:54
bbucciantineed to learn how23:54
bbucciantiwait23:54
gnarfacei don't know specifics about setting up dvorak though23:54
brocashelmi'm using ceres and reporting no problems with it. what packages in particular?23:54
bbucciantiI don't know really I was looking up that23:54
bbucciantibut seems like I need to have keyboard-configuration in order to being able to use dvorak on the login screen?23:55
gnarfacemost likely you need that for any keyboard mapping other than default23:55
brocashelmpackages get installed/removed normally as part of dependencies, or else they get held back (default) if the latter is more likely until newer builds can match current installed23:56
gnarfaceyou'll also wnat locales and tzdata23:56
bbucciantiyeah, and the when I want to install keyboard-configuration seems like liblocale-gettext-perl complains that perlapi-5.30.0 is not installable23:56
gnarfacewant*23:56
gnarfacehmm, i did just do a ceres upgrade myself, and i noticed perl was held back23:56
gnarfacedid you install that perl?23:56
brocashelmi remember having an issue with python that i just had to let it go (but i copied the binary files over from a backup so i could still use youtube-dl)23:56
bbucciantiI don't remember23:56
brocashelmperl and perl-base are held back for me atm23:57
bbucciantibut I don't think so23:57
gnarfaceyou might need to go back to the previous perl because stuff hasn't all migrated to it yet23:57
bbucciantiok, I need to figure it out how to do it23:57
gnarfacei've had a similar problem on sid23:57
gnarfacebasically find out the previous version and it's just "apt-get install package=version"23:57
bbucciantithere is a common or base package that install all of the default ones?23:58
gnarfacethe one called perl, probably, but there's no guarantee you won't have to do more than one or even all of them individually23:58
gnarfaceif you "dpkg -l |grep perl" you can see them listed with the versions23:59
bbucciantithat runs really slow23:59
bbuccianti:D23:59

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