| pixtum | Hello, I recently installed devaun using the netinstall version of Beowulf and after the installer finished it didn't enable sudo, I tried running visudo but that didn't seem to work (says it's missing) | 01:58 |
|---|---|---|
| gnarface | pixtum: it's maybe not in your path by default | 02:04 |
| gnarface | pixtum: dpkg -S visudo | 02:05 |
| gnarface | you will need to add users to the sudo group | 02:05 |
| gnarface | pixtum: i think you might have to uncomment the sudoers line in the config too, i forget | 02:06 |
| gnarface | pixtum: note that the default behavior of "su" also no longer inherits root's path so you should use "su -" to get the behavior you expect in that case | 02:07 |
| gnarface | pixtum: and root's default path may no longer have /sbin or /usr/sbin in it either, sadly enough | 02:10 |
| gnarface | pixtum: check /etc/login.defs around about line 102 i think? | 02:12 |
| systemdlete | So I start with a brand-new VM. Clear out .mozilla directory. start firefox. Configure it to restore previous session. go to a static page I created. quit firefox | 02:57 |
| systemdlete | open firefox. There is just one tab open, to my static page. tcpdump, meanwhile is yacking away with packets to and from amazon, verizon, akamai, and some others. | 02:58 |
| systemdlete | I am going to guess this is normal, but... but... | 02:58 |
| systemdlete | why? | 02:58 |
| systemdlete | why all of this noise, with only one open tab in firefox on a static page??? | 02:58 |
| systemdlete | what am I missing here? | 02:59 |
| gnarface | disable all those features on the "blank" tab | 02:59 |
| gnarface | the suggestions, the search box, "Pocket" | 02:59 |
| systemdlete | but I don't even have that "blank tab" open!!! | 02:59 |
| systemdlete | lol | 02:59 |
| gnarface | disturbing | 02:59 |
| systemdlete | When I say, "a static page", it is the one you get for free when you install lighttpd. | 03:00 |
| systemdlete | I modified it slightly to indicate the local server. This way, I can be certain it is really my local server web page. | 03:00 |
| systemdlete | OK, I'll try getting rid of pocket, but does this mean it is "preloading" all that $#1+ ? | 03:01 |
| systemdlete | (so it will be ready to annoy me when I *DO* open a new tab?) | 03:01 |
| gnarface | probably | 03:02 |
| gnarface | i can't be sure | 03:02 |
| gnarface | i think also something about the search bar preferences might phone home | 03:02 |
| gnarface | and maybe a password manager, depending on your settings? | 03:02 |
| systemdlete | What are "snippets?" (Updates from mozilla and firefox) | 03:02 |
| systemdlete | ddg | 03:03 |
| gnarface | updates that bypass distro package management, i assume | 03:03 |
| systemdlete | I'd hope ddg would shut the %*&k up | 03:03 |
| gnarface | they might also be sneaking in telemetry with those, or accidentally turning it back on | 03:03 |
| systemdlete | I'm going to disable pocket AND snippets | 03:03 |
| gnarface | in theory anyway | 03:03 |
| gnarface | i would | 03:03 |
| gnarface | snippets i thought should have been disabled by default in the repo pacakge | 03:04 |
| gnarface | package* | 03:04 |
| gnarface | i would probably set the default home page to about:blank too | 03:04 |
| gnarface | a local static html page should be about the same as long as it doesn't have any remote http calls itself | 03:05 |
| systemdlete | Well, that quiets it down a little maybe. But I still get clownfront traffic | 03:06 |
| systemdlete | (I checked. No js, no xhr calls) | 03:06 |
| gnarface | there's something else | 03:07 |
| systemdlete | ok, I'll try your idea (about:blank) | 03:07 |
| gnarface | i'm forgetting something else i think | 03:07 |
| gnarface | dns over https? is that enabled by default now too? | 03:07 |
| systemdlete | still getting aws crap | 03:08 |
| gnarface | do you have it backing up bookmarks somewhere? | 03:09 |
| systemdlete | a little birdie is telling me I probably dont' need all that damn traffic on my network. Esp when I am not asking for it! | 03:09 |
| gnarface | or fetching them for offline use or something? | 03:09 |
| systemdlete | nope. | 03:09 |
| systemdlete | this is a brand new system. And I had cleared the .mozilla dirctory | 03:09 |
| systemdlete | oh! | 03:09 |
| systemdlete | cache! | 03:09 |
| systemdlete | (forgot that one) | 03:09 |
| gnarface | hmm, the cache is connecing to akami? | 03:11 |
| gnarface | ?? | 03:11 |
| epony | why is #centos such a fag IRC channel.. I can't stand thoese people | 03:11 |
| systemdlete | no, I meant, I forgot to clear the .cache directory when I cleared the .mozilla directory | 03:13 |
| systemdlete | did not help though | 03:13 |
| systemdlete | gnarface: Any ideas on a browser that doesn't accumulate so much ***** either by the user or by itself? | 03:14 |
| systemdlete | I'm thinking that some of that traffic might be preloading for that input predcition thingy (it types for you as you input a site) | 03:15 |
| systemdlete | so far, I've seen verizon, cloudfront, cloudflare, aws, google, and some others. | 03:16 |
| systemdlete | I guess this is "useful" (Is that the correct term?) | 03:16 |
| systemdlete | I suppose that's why it's called fireFOX -- it IS quick. | 03:18 |
| systemdlete | the problem arises when I'm trying to debug a webserver (or even browser) problem and I have to filter all this other nonsense. | 03:19 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: not sure what's hip these days... palemoon? | 03:32 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: there is speculative link pre-caching, i believe, yes | 03:33 |
| clort | #devuan-offtopic pls | 03:40 |
| systemdlete | yes. good idea, clort | 03:41 |
| systemdlete | gnarface: I figured out a workaround! :D | 06:48 |
| systemdlete | wget | 06:48 |
| systemdlete | (or curl) | 06:48 |
| systemdlete | for my testing purposes, that is sufficient. And the browser noise goes away. | 06:48 |
| gnarface | ah, well that's better then | 06:55 |
| systemdlete | so I am still shopping for a video card. I forgot now which ones would work best with devuan beowulf. | 07:02 |
| systemdlete | (sorry, I know there are no ideal answers to this) | 07:02 |
| systemdlete | didn't you say the amd based ones might be ok? | 07:03 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: yes, their street cred is good lately | 07:04 |
| systemdlete | so does that mean only recent amd models? | 07:05 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: nah, the older ones should be pretty good too | 07:05 |
| systemdlete | ok, I see at least one on newegg | 07:06 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: their linux support is solid, the older cards just aren't very fast | 07:06 |
| onefang | For Beowulf it might be best to not get recent generations of AMD graphics, though the same likely applies to recent generations of nVidia as well. | 07:07 |
| systemdlete | onefang: Right on! | 07:07 |
| onefang | I got an AMD RX 5600 XT, had to hack around a bit to get it to work perfectly with Beowulf. | 07:07 |
| gnarface | it isn't until you get to the very late radeonsi generations and early amdgpu stuff that the performance starts holding it's own against the equivalent nvidia hardware | 07:07 |
| systemdlete | I tend to stay away from recent hardware altogether. I am still on Athlon and FX series processors here. | 07:07 |
| onefang | I recently upgraded to a full bleeding edge AMD system. | 07:08 |
| gnarface | well even nvidia's 1000 series cards, which they already consider old, are too new to run on the stock beowulf kernel & drivers, but the ones in backports work | 07:08 |
| systemdlete | be careful you don't cut yourself! | 07:08 |
| * onefang looks at the healing wounds on my fingers. Um, too late. lol | 07:09 | |
| systemdlete | :( | 07:09 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: the other one i suggested was matrox if you could find one | 07:09 |
| systemdlete | there is one there. $64 Corn I think? | 07:09 |
| systemdlete | or was it korn | 07:09 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: too much | 07:09 |
| gnarface | you want like a matrox g200 for $9 | 07:09 |
| gnarface | not sure about korn or corn | 07:10 |
| systemdlete | https://www.newegg.com/p/27N-003A-00002?Item=9SIA4RE78Y1299&Description=hdmi%20video%20card&cm_re=hdmi_video%20card-_-27N-003A-00002-_-Product | 07:10 |
| gnarface | oh, never heard of them | 07:11 |
| systemdlete | cheapest hdmi for radeon is $43 | 07:11 |
| gnarface | will need firmware, will work with the radeon driver | 07:13 |
| gnarface | according to google anyway | 07:14 |
| gnarface | looks like it should do it | 07:14 |
| gnarface | i'm not sure maybe the radeon firmware is open source now though | 07:14 |
| gnarface | you'll have to check though | 07:14 |
| gnarface | this looks new enough it's probably not | 07:14 |
| gnarface | but not new enough to use the amdgpu driver, it's still using the radeon driver | 07:14 |
| systemdlete | We're still talking about the Corn? | 07:15 |
| gnarface | this i think suggests you can get a very stark performance boost by rebuilding the kernel with the radeonsi scheduler btw | 07:15 |
| gnarface | yes | 07:15 |
| gnarface | the only thing is it looks like a budget card with cheap ram and i've never heard of that brand so i can't be sure it's any good | 07:15 |
| systemdlete | this is for a test box, but I get your meaning. | 07:15 |
| systemdlete | good is the key word here. Good enough to work is all I need. | 07:16 |
| onefang | Look at when the kernel you are using got released, look at the graphics cards supported by that kernel, back up one generation from then. | 07:19 |
| clort | i got the ryzen2700u and gpu didn't work at all due to a bad BIOS implementation by Acer | 07:20 |
| systemdlete | https://www.amazon.com/XFX-Radeon-Profile-PCI-Express-ONXFX1STD2/dp/B007QXLHE2/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=hdmi+video+card&qid=1606544519&refinements=p_n_feature_keywords_five_browse-bin%3A8259091011&rnid=6147185011&s=pc&sr=1-11 | 07:23 |
| systemdlete | It's only $40 with shipping | 07:24 |
| onefang | $40 with shipping from Amazon? That's be a photo of a graphics card in a huge box. | 07:25 |
| systemdlete | ??? | 07:26 |
| systemdlete | sorry, having difficulty understanding what you are saying. | 07:26 |
| onefang | That in my experience Amazon shipping is sometimes over the top expensive. lol | 07:27 |
| systemdlete | you know, I am tempted to go back to my plan A: Order a dvi-hdmi adapter and go back to doing other things that I care about a lot more. | 07:27 |
| onefang | Sounds much simpler. | 07:28 |
| systemdlete | very simple | 07:28 |
| hook54321 | does anyone know if a machine like this would work well with devuan? https://www.bestbuy.com/site/asus-tuf-gaming-15-6-laptop-intel-core-i5-8gb-memory-nvidia-geforce-gtx-1650-ti-256gb-ssd-black/6425894.p | 07:28 |
| systemdlete | and there's little that can go wrong. I have one already. It would be fine for what I'm doing. | 07:29 |
| hook54321 | meant to post this, but that one too. https://www.bestbuy.com/site/hp-pavilion-15-6-gaming-laptop-amd-ryzen-5-8gb-memory-nvidia-geforce-gtx-1650-256gb-ssd-shadow-black/6427566.p | 07:29 |
| systemdlete | (Is this off-topic at this point? i'm really not sure. Seems like support to me, but others may feel differently.) | 07:29 |
| systemdlete | and onefang, I've been shopping on newegg lately because I don't want Jeff to get too much more of our money. He has enough of it already I think. | 07:30 |
| onefang | Newegg is where I bought my bleeding edge AMD parts. | 07:31 |
| onefang | Now we are off topic. lol | 07:31 |
| systemdlete | Done. Adapter/converter on its way. | 07:35 |
| systemdlete | Meanwhile, I am still trying to figure out why my devuan install on my test box somehow rendered the other partitions unbootable. | 07:36 |
| systemdlete | I've tried using grub, grubrescuecd, bootrescue, and a few others. The gpt is still there, but nothing boots as before. | 07:37 |
| systemdlete | even the ascii partition that was on it is kaputt. | 07:37 |
| systemdlete | it is only a testbox after all. I just wonder why this would happen. | 07:37 |
| systemdlete | For me, I can easily afford to torpedo the whole damn disk and repartition it from scratch. I don't care. But this is a bit unnerving. I am thinking of what could happen with the box I use regularly. | 07:38 |
| systemdlete | when I upgrade to beowulf I mean. | 07:38 |
| systemdlete | Do we (devuan/debian) have some handy-dandy tool to analyze the entire disk for partitioning, partion boundaries, etc? | 07:40 |
| clort | well hardware compatibility with linux kernel affects devuan, though it's not devuan-specific | 07:41 |
| systemdlete | so that video card that rots might have something to do with it? It seems far-fetched, but at this point, I'd buy into that theory. | 07:42 |
| n4dir | fdisk, parted, gparted, probably more | 07:43 |
| systemdlete | The only other thing I can think of... and this is probably just as far-fetched, is that I was playing with kvm VMs (virt-manager) and I am wondering if maybe there is some bug somewhere that might have nicked my gpt somehow. | 07:44 |
| systemdlete | n4dir, see above. I've tried them all at this point. None of them indicate any problem with the partioning, though. It's just that none of them will boot properly. The nearest I got was landing in a grub rescue shell or a initramfs env | 07:45 |
| systemdlete | I guess I should have mentoned this also. | 07:45 |
| systemdlete | *mentioned | 07:45 |
| * systemdlete : FINGERS! | 07:45 | |
| systemdlete | *partitioning | 07:45 |
| systemdlete | (ugh) | 07:45 |
| onefang | Try booting from an external thingy that has rEFInd on it, that'll scan for EFI bootable things and give you a menu. Might help figure out what's wrong. | 07:46 |
| systemdlete | hmm. Good idea! thanks | 07:46 |
| systemdlete | well, that didn't work. At all. After selecting the thumb drive at the hardware boot menu, it just hangs in darkness. | 07:58 |
| systemdlete | I wonder if the drive... | 07:58 |
| systemdlete | that drive is only about a year and a half since I installed it. | 07:58 |
| systemdlete | (the thumb drive? That seems to work ok though) | 08:05 |
| onefang | Might be a BIOS / EFI issue rather than a GPT issue then. | 08:11 |
| systemdlete | bad archive mirror during install (beowulf x86_64 netinstall) | 09:54 |
| systemdlete | yet if I ping deb.devuan.org, it is fine | 09:55 |
| systemdlete | I take that back | 09:56 |
| systemdlete | Looks like my local network has sprung a problem. Funny how it is flakey this way. | 09:56 |
| systemdlete | I think it might be the nic in the test box. | 09:56 |
| systemdlete | debian/devuan lovers might hate this, idk. On my testbox, with the video card that doesn't work so hot (blank screens, e.g. and possibly other unstable behavior), the ONLY OS I've been able to boot so far (all my partitions came back? Even when the devuan installer said it only found 1 OS?) that would boot was not devuan. | 11:28 |
| systemdlete | It was my adelie. And that's a very old install, btw. I don't think that is even RC2. | 11:28 |
| systemdlete | It booted right up into sddm. No hesitation, no flashing, no stuttering, no nothing. Just some old-fashioned desktop goodness. | 11:29 |
| systemdlete | Adelie *is* running with a much newer kernel. It is 5.4.5 iirc with some backports for 64 bit time (I think). | 11:30 |
| systemdlete | So maybe it has newer video drivers for the nouveau (adelie doesn't support proprietary software as much as possible) | 11:31 |
| systemdlete | but that grub business really makes my head spin. I do not get that at all. | 11:32 |
| systemdlete | When I tried to boot the justnow-installed beowulf, it started out OK, but when it got to the graphical phase, the screen went dark and that was the last I heard from it. I even waited a couple of minutes, since maybe it was testing various video modes. | 11:33 |
| systemdlete | same for the ascii partition, which has been there forever just about. I haven't done much with that one for many months now. | 11:33 |
| onefang | Part of what I needed to do to get my bleeding edge graphics to work well was to upgrade to the Beowulf backports 5.8.0 kernel. | 11:34 |
| onefang | 5.8.10-1~bpo10+1 | 11:34 |
| * onefang wanders back to the kitchen for more cooking stuff. | 11:35 | |
| * systemdlete really scratching head very, very hard now... | 11:38 | |
| systemdlete | So I boot kernel, passing 3 to it (console mode?) and now... | 11:38 |
| systemdlete | NOW, now I get a login prompt in graphical mode. | 11:38 |
| systemdlete | (https://www.linuxuprising.com/2020/01/how-to-boot-to-console-text-mode-in.html) | 11:39 |
| * onefang lends your more fingernails for head scratching. | 11:39 | |
| systemdlete | Please be honest with me: Am I just having too much fun with my testbox? Or have I accidentally admitted daemons to my lair? | 11:39 |
| systemdlete | (thank you onefang. It feels good to be "loved" that way...) | 11:40 |
| onefang | You can't have both? | 11:40 |
| systemdlete | true | 11:40 |
| systemdlete | Is passing "3" the kernel command line at boot not the way to get console? (I thought it was "1" not "3") | 11:41 |
| systemdlete | oh... is that for systemd maybe (I didn't notice that the 1st time I read that link) | 11:43 |
| onefang | If you are talking sysv init run levels, 1 might be correct off the top of my head. | 11:44 |
| fsmithred | 3 will get you to multi-user console on some distros that are set up for that. | 11:44 |
| fsmithred | refracta is one, sidux was one, I think others might be like that. | 11:45 |
| systemdlete | right. Seems like the old standard has morphed and diverged considerably. | 11:45 |
| fsmithred | what old standard? | 11:45 |
| systemdlete | So, basically, for us non-systemd folk, 1 single (console) and 3 for graphical | 11:45 |
| fsmithred | redhat and suse have 5 as default runlevel. | 11:45 |
| fsmithred | in debian, 2-5 are all the same | 11:46 |
| fsmithred | and 2 is default | 11:46 |
| onefang | The old "standard" of which sysv init runlevels mean what. Not sure it ever was standardised outside of actual System-V. | 11:46 |
| fsmithred | well, not anymore... | 11:46 |
| systemdlete | fsmithred: I don't remember clearly now. But it seems like years ago, 1 or S was single user and would get you a console. 5 would get graphical on most systems (Sun or Amdahl) | 11:46 |
| fsmithred | 1 is single user everywhere, I think | 11:46 |
| systemdlete | and for a while, 6 was reboot | 11:46 |
| fsmithred | still is, isn't it? | 11:47 |
| systemdlete | except in systemd land, apparently | 11:47 |
| systemdlete | (see link) | 11:47 |
| fsmithred | yeah, not instead of a single digit, you get to type a whole bunch of words | 11:47 |
| fsmithred | not/now | 11:47 |
| systemdlete | how convenient. (not) | 11:47 |
| systemdlete | glad I'm in THIS channel | 11:48 |
| onefang | "Dear Mr P, please let me reboot." | 11:48 |
| fsmithred | that would be easier to remember | 11:49 |
| systemdlete | fsmithred, by default, beowulf (without me touching ANYTHING) booted to a blank screen. | 11:49 |
| fsmithred | I don't think that's a new feature, systemdlete | 11:49 |
| systemdlete | lol | 11:50 |
| fsmithred | been hearing about that for about as long as I've been using linux | 11:50 |
| systemdlete | I don't know. I've seen it here and there with this or that distro/release, but generally, new installs worked OK for me. | 11:50 |
| fsmithred | new vid card? | 11:50 |
| systemdlete | yup | 11:50 |
| fsmithred | have fun | 11:51 |
| systemdlete | nvidia GT710 | 11:51 |
| systemdlete | why, is this SuSE? | 11:51 |
| systemdlete | what do you mean? You can't just walk away! No, wait! Come back here!!!! | 11:51 |
| fsmithred | ueaj. O meeed tp fomosj ,u forst cpi[ pf cpffee | 11:52 |
| systemdlete | I hear you. I know that well. | 11:52 |
| systemdlete | One thing I will not do is stand between a person and their first cup of coffee. | 11:52 |
| systemdlete | Or their second. | 11:52 |
| fsmithred | have you tried chimaera/ceres with it yet? | 11:53 |
| systemdlete | no | 11:56 |
| systemdlete | In fact, I've never tried those ever | 11:56 |
| systemdlete | I tried "1" and I get a maintenance prompt. "3" got me to the sddm login (once at least). | 11:57 |
| fsmithred | it was beowulf that gave you graphical login with 3? | 11:57 |
| systemdlete | yeah | 11:57 |
| systemdlete | Let me try that again and see if it is consistent. Gimme a sec | 11:58 |
| fsmithred | that shouldn't make any difference | 11:58 |
| systemdlete | this time, "3" just hangs in darkness. I don't know, maybe it will come up at some point... some day | 12:02 |
| fsmithred | oh, I've seen that | 12:03 |
| fsmithred | in beowulf, before we released it | 12:03 |
| systemdlete | I mean, like more than a minute | 12:03 |
| fsmithred | yes | 12:03 |
| systemdlete | hmmm. OK, I'll check every few moments or so | 12:03 |
| fsmithred | sudo go make a sandwich | 12:03 |
| systemdlete | "OK, I will make you a sandwich." | 12:03 |
| onefang | I'm cooking a proper meal now, no mere sandwiches. | 12:04 |
| onefang | Though it does include some root vegies. B-) | 12:04 |
| systemdlete | fsmithred: The first time, when "3" got me to the gui, I shelled out to tty2 and got a login prompt. Pretty normal. | 12:05 |
| fsmithred | did you try booting with 'nomodeset'? | 12:05 |
| systemdlete | Then I tried to switch back to tty7 and nogo. Also tried tty1 (though normally it is on tty7, but console x startup can end up in tty1 also) | 12:06 |
| fsmithred | those are all good things to try | 12:06 |
| systemdlete | yes. I've tried that in the past. It does work, but... uh. It looks like a Commodore 64. | 12:06 |
| fsmithred | lol, wasn't so bad for me. | 12:06 |
| systemdlete | fsmithred: :p | 12:07 |
| systemdlete | happy you are having better results | 12:07 |
| fsmithred | I had an old nvidia card and got black screen without nomodeset. Then I replaced it with a newer nvidia card and got a black screen with nomodeset. | 12:07 |
| onefang | Looking like a Commodore Amiga would be much preferable. | 12:07 |
| fsmithred | I use nouveau now. Mostly because it gets refreshed on a warm reboot. The nvidia was holding stuff from the last boot. | 12:08 |
| fsmithred | no kidding. Whatever video I watched last would show up on the login screen. | 12:08 |
| systemdlete | hey, just tried the shelling out trick. Was able to see all 6 consoles. But could not switch back to the black screen of tty7 | 12:08 |
| fsmithred | anything in .xsession-errors? | 12:09 |
| fsmithred | or Xorg.O.log? | 12:09 |
| systemdlete | haven't tried logging in actually. | 12:09 |
| systemdlete | just testing to see if it was alive. | 12:09 |
| fsmithred | btw, I suck at this video troubleshooting | 12:09 |
| systemdlete | I'll have to reboot I think. It is pretty locked up now | 12:09 |
| systemdlete | nah. | 12:09 |
| systemdlete | I'd be hacking away the same way | 12:10 |
| fsmithred | Here's a refracta iso with bpo kernel if you want to try: https://get.refracta.org/files/experimental/refracta-test-oblx_5.6bpo-20200625_1323.iso | 12:10 |
| systemdlete | 2020/06/25 -- nothing newer, eh? | 12:10 |
| fsmithred | there's a chimaera iso in the same directory, but no X installed in that one. | 12:10 |
| systemdlete | That might make things a tad easier I suppose. | 12:11 |
| systemdlete | well, I can always add x later can't I? | 12:11 |
| systemdlete | OK, I'll try that. | 12:11 |
| systemdlete | see ya in a day or two... | 12:11 |
| fsmithred | ??? | 12:12 |
| fsmithred | you going away? | 12:12 |
| systemdlete | if I install it, yes. | 12:12 |
| fsmithred | no travel is allowed!!! | 12:12 |
| fsmithred | just put it on a usb stick and boot it | 12:12 |
| systemdlete | It takes me forever to install these. That's because I ponder over every last step in expert mode. | 12:12 |
| systemdlete | OH! | 12:12 |
| systemdlete | I thought you mean install | 12:12 |
| fsmithred | why install if you don't know if it works? | 12:13 |
| systemdlete | You just want to see if the graphics card works with it. | 12:13 |
| systemdlete | Because it's 3am here and I've been up since about 7am yesterday | 12:13 |
| fsmithred | I don't want to see anything. | 12:14 |
| fsmithred | oh wait, the chimaera iso does have X. Just no login manager. | 12:14 |
| fsmithred | and 5.9 kernel | 12:15 |
| systemdlete | I'll try that in the... well, whenever I get up, OK? Then I'll report back what I found out. | 12:15 |
| systemdlete | I think I'm too tired to drive now. | 12:15 |
| fsmithred | sure. Have a good sleep. | 12:15 |
| systemdlete | thanks for all you help. | 12:15 |
| fsmithred | yw | 12:16 |
| kreyren | What was the way to make audio jack working on devuan? x.x | 13:01 |
| * kreyren has new install | 13:01 | |
| IanJ | kreyren: are you trying to get sound working? | 13:20 |
| kreyren | IanJ, yes >.> | 13:20 |
| kreyren | i got it to work like 5 days ago here installing some package and running `something init` O.o | 13:20 |
| kreyren | but i don't have log >.> | 13:20 |
| IanJ | let me see what I have installed | 13:21 |
| kreyren | oke o.o | 13:21 |
| kreyren | thanku ^-^ | 13:21 |
| IanJ | you probably want pulseaudio | 13:21 |
| * kreyren is trying to fix this for hour and half and is depressed over his failure to do that | 13:21 | |
| kreyren | IanJ, ideally yes | 13:21 |
| IanJ | so apt-get install pulseaudio | 13:22 |
| kreyren | already installed | 13:22 |
| IanJ | I also have alsa-utils and alsa-tools installed | 13:23 |
| IanJ | ah, there was one thing I forgot | 13:23 |
| kreyren | alsa-utils already installed, alsa-tools installing now | 13:23 |
| IanJ | In my user directory I put pulseaudio --start in ~/.xsessionrc | 13:24 |
| IanJ | Otherwise the pulseaudio sound deamon isn't started it seems. | 13:24 |
| IanJ | not sure if that's the correct fix, but that was my fix. | 13:25 |
| kreyren | pulseaudio daemon running already | 13:25 |
| IanJ | Ok, well you installed some other stuff now, so I would either reboot or restart it. | 13:26 |
| kreyren | x.x | 13:26 |
| IanJ | I had something funky going on where pulseaudio was running but I had no sound and pavaumixer couldn't see my soundcard. | 13:26 |
| IanJ | but after I restarted the daemon it could. | 13:26 |
| IanJ | and now everything is working ok. | 13:26 |
| IanJ | Try running pavucontrol and adjusting the sound settings, check your card is listed and selected. | 13:28 |
| IanJ | sometimes they are muted. | 13:28 |
| kreyren | I think i found the issue i am running it in qubesOS and the sound driver is not relayed correctly and that it needs `alsactl init` to work O.o So i will resolve that part with them | 13:31 |
| kreyren | thanks IanJ ^-^ | 13:31 |
| IanJ | No problem | 13:32 |
| IanJ | I recently installed devuan and had an issue getting the sound working too. | 13:32 |
| fsmithred | pavucontrol? | 13:33 |
| kreyren | fsmithred, eh? | 13:33 |
| fsmithred | and /etc/pulse/somenthing... | 13:34 |
| fsmithred | pavucontrol installed? | 13:34 |
| kreyren | fsmithred, yes pavucontrol is installed | 13:34 |
| kreyren | the userland seems configured, but i am not getting the driver in /dev/../cards x.x | 13:34 |
| fsmithred | and you did the edit for autospawn? | 13:34 |
| kreyren | no i am deploying pulseaudio through xinitrc using `pulseaudio -D` O.o | 13:35 |
| fsmithred | I think last time I told you 'aplay -l' | 13:35 |
| fsmithred | and you figured out something from that | 13:35 |
| kreyren | user@personal:~$ aplay -l | 13:35 |
| kreyren | aplay: device_list:274: no soundcards found.. | 13:35 |
| kreyren | checking qubesOS docs atm x.x | 13:36 |
| IanJ | fsmithred: why on a non systemd system does it have a file with that default telling you to comment out for a non systemd system? | 13:36 |
| * kreyren thinks to found the issue, has to take devuan qube down | 13:37 | |
| fsmithred | because debian favors systemd and we don't fork pulseaudio to change one line. | 13:37 |
| IanJ | /etc/pulse/client.conf.d/00-disable-autospawn.conf | 13:37 |
| IanJ | is that documented anywhere? | 13:38 |
| IanJ | It caught me out :/ | 13:38 |
| fsmithred | in the release notes | 13:38 |
| fsmithred | it catches just about everyone | 13:38 |
| IanJ | Yeah :( | 13:38 |
| fsmithred | in the desktop-live, it's already done | 13:38 |
| IanJ | I worked around it by adding a line to my .xsessionrc, I didn't know what the propper fix was. | 13:38 |
| fsmithred | proper fix is in the comments in that file | 13:39 |
| IanJ | Yep, I didn't know it existed as I didn't read the release notes :) | 13:39 |
| fsmithred | maybe the release notes could be the desktop background image | 13:40 |
| onefang | golinux would scream. | 13:40 |
| fsmithred | we'll let her color it | 13:40 |
| onefang | Phew, crisis averted. | 13:40 |
| fsmithred | not | 13:40 |
| IanJ | fsmithred: desktop background wouldn't have helped me, I still have no desktop background as I didn't install a desktop. Just i3wm. | 13:42 |
| buZz | xsetroot -solid black | 13:42 |
| buZz | thats my background usually ;) | 13:42 |
| IanJ | heh, Yeah that's how mine is right now :) | 13:42 |
| onefang | feh --bg-scale '/etc/xdg/openbox/PureBlack.png' | 13:43 |
| onefang | Then I run a custom almost full screen conky on top of that. | 13:44 |
| buZz | i have the vague idea that not drawing a image as wallpaper saves a tiny bit of cpu and ram | 13:45 |
| IanJ | I'm sure you're right buZz. | 13:46 |
| onefang | I just built a Threadripper 64 core with 256 GB RAM desktop. Don't think I'll notice the load. | 13:46 |
| IanJ | lol | 13:46 |
| IanJ | I have a far more modest system :) | 13:46 |
| IanJ | As a secondary benefit I bet it keeps you warm :) | 13:47 |
| onefang | Plus, I didn't know about xsetroot -solid. Now I do. | 13:47 |
| buZz | \o welcome | 13:47 |
| onefang | In a heatwave right now, ask again about keeping warm in six months time. | 13:47 |
| IanJ | haha, it's bloody freezing here. | 13:48 |
| buZz | 3C outside iirc | 13:48 |
| buZz | oh 4.5 | 13:48 |
| buZz | hawt | 13:48 |
| KREYREEN | fsmithred, do you remember what command did you recommend me to use that initialized the alsa btw? i remember `somethingctrl init`? alsactl init? | 13:57 |
| fsmithred | alsactl init | 13:58 |
| KREYREEN | thanks ^-^ | 13:58 |
| unixbsd | hi | 15:30 |
| unixbsd | on mirro fra10 de leaseweb, can you add "stable" oldstable and sidß | 15:30 |
| unixbsd | ? | 15:30 |
| unixbsd | can you use img.gz and remove all those .xz? this is pointless and senseless to use xz. it brings nothing i.e. <5%. | 15:32 |
| Psykukumber | Hi, everyone, recently installed dev1 on my netbook and can't figure out why xfce4-power-manager not working. It's just not going to suspend after lid is closed | 16:15 |
| unixbsd | you may first test with dmesg/proc is the lid is seen, to be closed | 16:17 |
| unixbsd | find /proc -iname "*batter*" will show where the infos are located about bat. | 16:17 |
| unixbsd | find /sys/devices -iname "*capacity*" will show where the infos are located about bat. | 16:21 |
| Psykukumber | here's what i got | 16:24 |
| Psykukumber | sudo find /sys/devices -iname "*capacity*" | 16:24 |
| Psykukumber | "/sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/ata1/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/evt_capacity_change_reported" | 16:24 |
| Psykukumber | "/sys/devices/LNXSYSTM:00/LNXSYBUS:00/PNP0A08:00/device:01/PNP0C0A:00/power_supply/BAT0/capacity | 16:24 |
| Psykukumber | "/sys/devices/LNXSYSTM:00/LNXSYBUS:00/PNP0A08:00/device:01/PNP0C0A:00/power_supply/BAT0/capacity_level" | 16:24 |
| Psykukumber | well, i tried acpi_listen and it looks like that events logged correctly | 16:43 |
| Atari-Frosch | Is jitsi-meet planned as devuan packet? When installed from the official source it comes only with systemd start scripts :-( (or did I miss something?) | 16:44 |
| Atari-Frosch | I mean the server, of course. | 16:45 |
| bru | Hello. I just looked on the Devuan package list of testing, and it's very well updated with Debian testing's one. How does it work, actually? Are the packages automated so it receives the latest update from Debian repos? (Whatever the answer this, congrats on having such a good package mainteinance from everyone who contributes) | 18:01 |
| fsmithred | bru, the magic is in amprolla. We host the forked packages and amprolla merges the debian repos, filters out the banned packages, and makes it look like we host all of debian packages. | 18:09 |
| fsmithred | we match codename in devuan to codename in debian. Using 'testing' and 'stable' and 'unstable' will be out of sync when the next debian goes stable. We're always behind them on releases. | 18:10 |
| onefang | And the package mirrors either server forked Devuan packages directly, or redirect to Debian package mirrors for the unforked packages. Amprolla creates the apt metadata so all of this happens transparently. | 18:13 |
| bru | Amazing! I just looked a bit on Amprolla, and found the Devuan talk about it last year, gonna watch it so I learn more about it! | 18:17 |
| brocashelm | yeah, indeed amprolla. it's why the devs recommend not mixing repos so that package dependencies aren't fudged. as long as you only get your packages from deb.devuan.org, the chances of something going wrong are almost nonexistent | 18:19 |
| golinux | Atari-Frosch: Don't understand your question about Devuan jitsi | 18:26 |
| Atari-Frosch | golinux: Jitsi-Meet is not available in Devuan – or did I miss something? | 18:27 |
| golinux | If jitsi is in Debian we would provide it in the repos. | 18:28 |
| golinux | It is third party app | 18:28 |
| Atari-Frosch | Yes, but it comes with systemd start scripts only. | 18:28 |
| golinux | So afaik we will not be providing it | 18:29 |
| Atari-Frosch | :-( | 18:29 |
| golinux | We do have an instance running on Devuan infra so it is possible | 18:29 |
| Atari-Frosch | Today I tried the fourth time or so, and always got stuck at some point. Today I even couldn't get the start page. | 18:31 |
| Atari-Frosch | Well … fortunately it is only for me, not really important ;-) | 18:33 |
| golinux | Tried what? To install it? or use it as a guest? | 18:33 |
| Atari-Frosch | To install it. | 18:33 |
| golinux | Guess you'll need to find a way to remove that dependency then. | 18:50 |
| systemdlete | fsmithred: I booted your experimental ISO image from a thumb drive. I can get consoles and even switch between what should by tty7 and back to the consoles (which I could not do with the standard issue beowulf). But I cannot get graphics when (I think) I am in tty7 | 18:57 |
| fsmithred | startx | 18:58 |
| fsmithred | should bring up openbox | 18:58 |
| systemdlete | oh, so it doesn't start X on its own, ok | 18:58 |
| fsmithred | uh, live should | 18:58 |
| fsmithred | which iso? | 18:58 |
| systemdlete | ooh, ooh, ooh | 18:59 |
| systemdlete | that works! :D | 18:59 |
| fsmithred | chimaera01? | 18:59 |
| systemdlete | it's that ISO from I think june | 18:59 |
| systemdlete | refracta-test-oblx_5.6bpo-20200625_1323.iso | 18:59 |
| fsmithred | oh, ok | 18:59 |
| fsmithred | that's beowulf with backports kernel | 19:00 |
| systemdlete | 5.6 | 19:00 |
| fsmithred | yes | 19:00 |
| fsmithred | I think bpo is on 5.8 or 5.9 now | 19:00 |
| onefang | 5.8, the one I said before. | 19:00 |
| systemdlete | would those be better? any drawbacks? | 19:01 |
| fsmithred | you could install from that iso with refractainstaller | 19:01 |
| systemdlete | Yes, I could... | 19:01 |
| fsmithred | or use it to debootstrap an install to get the right kernel | 19:01 |
| systemdlete | But I am also thinking in terms of upgrading my main desktop that I use everyday | 19:01 |
| fsmithred | ascii to beowulf? | 19:02 |
| systemdlete | yeah | 19:02 |
| systemdlete | I mean, a fresh install of beowulf though | 19:02 |
| onefang | Oh, 5.9 is available recently, I haven't updated to it yet. | 19:02 |
| fsmithred | see the upgrade guides at devuan.org | 19:02 |
| systemdlete | not an upgrade per se | 19:02 |
| fsmithred | oh | 19:02 |
| systemdlete | yeah, fsmithred, I like to keep my existing installs around for a while until I am certain that the new install is stable enough etc etc | 19:03 |
| systemdlete | fallback, just in case | 19:03 |
| systemdlete | I got bitten a few times with, I think, either CentOS or SuSE, idr now | 19:03 |
| fsmithred | I usually do that, too | 19:03 |
| onefang | 5.8.10-1~bpo10+1 is what I got now from beowulf packports, 5.9.6-1~bpo10+1 is now available. | 19:03 |
| onefang | Er *backports* | 19:04 |
| systemdlete | My DVI-HDMI adapter should be here in a couple weeks. I also ordered a new HDMI card. (early xmas for systemdlete!) | 19:04 |
| systemdlete | So, at that point, I'll have lots of options. | 19:05 |
| systemdlete | Something ought to work with my desktop! | 19:05 |
| systemdlete | some combo | 19:05 |
| systemdlete | fsmithred: I don't have any qualms about running your refracta spin on my hardware. I am already using several StarLinux VMs. (Star seems to be a different installer; the rest is just beowulf) | 19:07 |
| fsmithred | Star and Crows and Gnuinos all use debian-installer (devuan-installer) | 19:08 |
| fsmithred | same as the installer isos | 19:08 |
| systemdlete | My concern is only that if I am using a more recent (backports) kernel, and I have a problem with my hardware (or some other unrelated issue), what kind of support I would get. | 19:08 |
| systemdlete | (yeah, I am figuring that out!) | 19:08 |
| fsmithred | kernels are all unchanged from debian | 19:08 |
| systemdlete | I found the star installer pretty good. I liked that it installed a basic system and I could add what I wanted. But I guess any of them will do that. | 19:09 |
| fsmithred | pretty sure star and crows use only devuan repos. Refracta also does. Gnuinos also has guinos repo, but that's just for a few forked packages. Rest is devuan. | 19:09 |
| systemdlete | good to know. ty. I'll keep that in mind. (Until I forget, that is... ) | 19:10 |
| fsmithred | refractainstaller just installs what's in the running live-iso | 19:10 |
| systemdlete | But are backports OFFICIALLY supported? Or just sorta kinda but but but? | 19:11 |
| systemdlete | That's my concern. | 19:11 |
| systemdlete | If the backports are fully supported by debian, then why aren't they part of the official release? | 19:11 |
| systemdlete | I worry about this kind of thing. | 19:11 |
| systemdlete | If something breaks my system, I own both parts. But that isn't much comfort when spending 2 days restoring files... been there a few times already. | 19:12 |
| systemdlete | One possibility is to force a sync to a 3rd raid drive and save that separately. Do the install and use the sync'd disk in case of a serious problem. | 19:13 |
| systemdlete | but I already have one bad disk (just bought it 3 months ago and it is failing, and that's after an RMA) | 19:13 |
| systemdlete | Part of it is that I don't fully understand the difference in support between the official release and things like backports. Is the level of support guaranteed to be more or less the same? Sorry for all these questions and troubles. | 19:15 |
| fsmithred | what does "fully supported" mean? | 19:16 |
| fsmithred | I guess if you want to see what patches are applied to kernel, you can look at the debian security site | 19:16 |
| user____1 | Hi. I updated firefox on beowulf. I see ESR 75.5.0esr -- is this what I should see? | 19:17 |
| fsmithred | prtty sure they don't apply patches to bpo kernels. They get applied to the main repo kernels and then whatver gets fixed in unstable eventually gets into backports | 19:17 |
| fsmithred | 78.5.0esr-1~deb10u1 | 19:18 |
| user____1 | You see that, where? In running ff -> About or in package version? | 19:18 |
| fsmithred | in beowulf | 19:18 |
| user____1 | In what tool/package manager? | 19:18 |
| fsmithred | apt policy firefox-esr | 19:18 |
| fsmithred | after recemt apt update | 19:19 |
| user____1 | correct. Strange I was already oin 75.5.0-esr but from mozilla.org or whatever they call themselves now | 19:20 |
| user____1 | *was on | 19:20 |
| fsmithred | I didn't know that mozilla offered -esr | 19:21 |
| user____1 | they do | 19:23 |
| user____1 | all versions are downloadable. Need to search a bit to find the archive. | 19:24 |
| user____1 | single instance firefox launcher for linux, tested. Prevents multiple browsers opening, opens one with links opened later in tabs. By me. https://termbin.com/yujp | 19:25 |
| user____1 | [recommended] | 19:26 |
| systemdlete | "fully supported" -- I suppose that just means "as supported as" the official release. | 19:26 |
| user____1 | I'll never understand why firescrew are unable to handle very basic requirements such as launch new instance / no new instance and also open new tab vs new instance -- they don't seem to be on the ball wrt startups | 19:26 |
| user____1 | systemdlete: ? | 19:27 |
| systemdlete | (in response to fsmithred, not you, sorry) | 19:27 |
| user____1 | ok reading backlog, joined late | 19:27 |
| systemdlete | user____1: You missed one of my rants about firefox | 19:27 |
| user____1 | hey hey hey, post logs :) | 19:27 |
| user____1 | wait I think I'm on on another device. Looking. | 19:28 |
| systemdlete | I opened firefox to a static web page (no javascript or other activity) but yet tcpdump was showing ff chugging away, hitting every website on earth and beyond | 19:28 |
| systemdlete | even turning off pocket and some other crap | 19:29 |
| systemdlete | I think we figured out its part of that speculative url stuff. | 19:29 |
| user____1 | sure. You need to turn off a bunch of stuff such as speculative preloading of "likely" links | 19:29 |
| systemdlete | yeah. | 19:29 |
| user____1 | speaking of, today's "upgrade" from 75.5.0-esr to 75.5.0-esr deleted noscript. Just like that. | 19:30 |
| user____1 | Had to reinstall it. | 19:30 |
| systemdlete | "likely" links. IOW, links likely to take you to places where very wealthy people can make lots of money from us | 19:30 |
| systemdlete | almost all of the traffic I was seeing was for aws, verizon, google, etc | 19:30 |
| systemdlete | but anyway, user____1, good luck with your project! | 19:31 |
| systemdlete | (I am clueless) | 19:31 |
| user____1 | which one? | 19:31 |
| user____1 | and ff removed adblock for youtube too. Not nice. | 19:34 |
| fsmithred | I had my search box removed and the default search engine switched from ddg to google on an upgrade. | 19:36 |
| user____1 | I ALWAYS have update search engines off. | 19:36 |
| user____1 | checking now | 19:36 |
| fsmithred | I don't see that switch | 19:37 |
| user____1 | indeed. about:config it is | 19:38 |
| user____1 | where one also turns off "automatically install updates" | 19:38 |
| user____1 | app.update.auto | 19:38 |
| fsmithred | thanks | 19:39 |
| user____1 | ff is unable / won't invoke apt to do this anyway, it gets the upstream update instead | 19:39 |
| user____1 | also turn off check sites and safe browsing in Settings | 19:41 |
| user____1 | browser.search.update is the search engine updater | 19:41 |
| user____1 | extensions.systemAddon.update.enabled auto updates extensions, you may want it off for manual ops | 19:42 |
| user____1 | extensions.update.enabled is true etc etc. #firefox is a better resource than I am. | 19:43 |
| systemdlete | sounds like s/t I ought to do as well... | 19:52 |
| systemdlete | (thanks for the tip) | 19:52 |
| systemdlete | no patreon account for devuan? | 20:02 |
| systemdlete | I'd like to send some money (in lieu of being helpful in other ways) | 20:02 |
| gnarface | i'm sure there's a way to donate, i don't know what exactly it is | 20:04 |
| systemdlete | I don't see it on patreon. Maybe gofundme? Rockfin? | 20:08 |
| fsmithred | check dyne.org website | 20:12 |
| fsmithred | or maybe click on the "Donate now" button on devuan.org | 20:13 |
| fsmithred | Looks like the choices are paypal or bank transfer | 20:14 |
| golinux | systemdlete: Donate instructions found @ devuan.org just clicki the big green button in the nav bar the big green button | 21:03 |
| golinux | There is no patreon option. | 21:04 |
| golinux | Sorry about that gibberish | 21:04 |
| golinux | But I think you'll be able to understand it/ | 21:05 |
| rrq | Atari-Frosch: jitsi-videobridge2 comes with init.d/ script | 21:10 |
| rrq | Atari-Frosch: latest version 2.1-376-g9f12bfe2-1 at https://download.jitsi.org stable/ | 21:11 |
| user____1 | is jitsi fully open source? can one set it up on non public servers etc or is it "always their servers"? | 21:41 |
| rrq | afaik it's open source and you certainly can install service on your own | 21:42 |
| telmich | Good evening | 21:42 |
| rrq | user____1: doesn't take much grunt though as a java process it likes RAM | 21:43 |
| onefang | Jitsi uses Prosody for some things, which is written in Lua. | 21:44 |
| onefang | Prosody is a XMPP server. | 21:45 |
| user____1 | Thanks, I'll look into it. | 21:45 |
| fsmithred | telmich, hi! | 21:52 |
| brocashelm | i still need to get my devuan t-shirt and coffee mug | 22:07 |
| golinux | telmich: Haven't seen you in loooong time | 22:11 |
| telmich | golinux: that's true - so many things to do and so little time! | 22:43 |
| telmich | I hope everyone is doing great | 22:43 |
| telmich | waving to fsmithred :-) | 22:43 |
| bbuccianti | we are storing coredumps in any ways? | 22:51 |
| bbuccianti | where? | 22:51 |
| bbuccianti | or how? | 22:51 |
| fsmithred | hi again, telmich | 22:51 |
| fsmithred | doing well here. | 22:52 |
| telmich | How are you doing fsmithred? I hope everyone is staying safe and healthy | 22:52 |
| fsmithred | yeah, people are being careful here in the northeast US | 22:52 |
| fsmithred | I was outside practicing sword moves | 22:53 |
| fsmithred | getting ready for zombie apocalypse | 22:54 |
| telmich | Here in Switzerland temperature is dropping strongly, so zombie would just freeze :-) | 22:54 |
| fsmithred | good. You're safe. | 22:55 |
| fsmithred | We're still above freezing most of the time here. | 22:55 |
| fsmithred | but that won't last much longer. | 22:55 |
| onefang | http://rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~3/iXdh0eyc09A/culled-mink-rise-from-the-dead-to-denmarks-horror The Zombie Apocalypse has started, but that's off topic. | 22:56 |
| onefang | And I'm off to bed. | 22:57 |
| user____1 | I keep forgetting how far South USA is. I'm in *South* Eastern Europe and I'm as high up North as Toronto. | 22:58 |
| user____1 | With associated weather "fun". Been nice so far, next week it gets white. | 22:58 |
| fsmithred | onefang, The Guardian had a pic of the trench. | 22:58 |
| fsmithred | wow | 22:58 |
| user____1 | Just for laughs, lots of Scots moved to Canada in the past, they found the weather nice... | 22:59 |
| fsmithred | lol, yeah I've met a few | 22:59 |
| * user____1 preps for $bed. | 23:00 | |
| rrq | bbuccianti: "man core" .. or with gdb: generate-core-file | 23:02 |
| bbuccianti | thanks rrq | 23:06 |
| Xenguy | brocashelm: Is there Devuan T's and coffee mugs? | 23:16 |
| clort | 'staying safe and healthy' is code language for 'obeying illegal orders' | 23:19 |
| clort | i hope you are all going about your life normally and enjoying it to its fullest. | 23:20 |
| clort | https://0x0.st/i7zd.png appropriate ascii | 23:20 |
| user____1 | hah I liked Violet Victory when I watched it. | 23:21 |
| fsmithred | Xenguy, https://shop.spreadshirt.net/devuan | 23:23 |
| PlotVitalNPC | From a fresh install, what package would you expect to let a devuan machine make use of an ethernet cable? | 23:54 |
| PlotVitalNPC | Because one just got here, and I'm starting to have to confront the fact that my laptop somehow lost not just its wireless connection manager, but possibly also whatever lets it use wired connections | 23:55 |
| PlotVitalNPC | (when I say 'one just got here', I mean an ethernet cable) | 23:56 |
| PlotVitalNPC | and I can see in synaptic that network-manager isn't installed | 23:57 |
| PlotVitalNPC | and I'm definitely no more connected to the internet than before I got this ethernet plugged in | 23:57 |
| IanJ | fsmithred: I particularly like there's an apron :P | 23:58 |
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